Inside the Mindset of the Most Elite Athletes | Josh Kozuch

Josh Kozuch and I talk through what it looks like to choose agency when your body hurts, your environment is loud, and the path back to competition is not clean. We also break down how high performers build identity through daily intentions, reflection, and feedback loops that keep them honest. 

• training for a USA Track and Field Masters meet while managing injuries and chronic pain 
• using purpose and parenting to turn adversity into fuel 
• reframing being a role model as a privilege while protecting energy from negativity 
• why “have fun” is too vague for elite performance and how to define it 
• building individualized frameworks and routines in professional baseball 
• setting daily intentions and using reflection as self-feedback 
• identity as the aggregate of behavior across all conditions 
• using AI as a tool for coaching feedback without delegating your thinking 
• working with bullheaded athletes, nudges over force, and when tough love matters 

Check us out, athleticfortitude.com, subscribe to our YouTube channel, download the podcast. Five stars only, maybe. 

Transcript

Choosing Agency Through Pain

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I mean, so like I've been very much like in this big mindset kick of like bending like the world, like to my will, basically agency. I am training for this USA track and field masters event. There's one indoor one in February in Gainesville, and then there's an outdoor one next July at Iowa State. And so I've had five knee surgeries. I've had all kinds of injuries throughout my playing career, but I'm very much of like taking this with the approach of like, it doesn't matter when I'm sore or when something hurts, literally just completely disregarding it and like acting as if I'm completely fine. And for me, it's been crazy, just like the shift of one general mood, but two, just like how much more clarity I act, like with my actions as I shift it into this, like, you know, I'm not gonna like, I can just like break shit, right? Like there's rules don't apply. I can just do things. And it's kind of crazy how my personal behavior has changed as I've begun to adopt this mindset more, as opposed to assuming all there's rules or you have to listen to certain things. I'm more so like, no, I'm on the attack, I'm on the hunt, and I'm gonna just do things.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

That's awesome, man. It takes a bit probably to get to that point, though, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially, dude, like, you know, the knee, then so this most recent knee surgery I've had. So I had like a big cartilage transplant into my knee. I had like a big hole underneath my kneecap. And basically was like a failed surgery away from needing a knee replacement before 30. So I've been doing this. My first knee surgery was at 27. I'm 30 now. Um, watch my first knee surgery was ACL many years ago. But like within the last couple of years, I had four like pretty decent ones. And like, dude, for a while I was just like down, down, like, oh, I have to accept, like, you know, I'm maybe not gonna be able to do things. And then it was like the second I started to get out of that chronic pain, because I had chronic pain for a while, I was like, all right, I'm ready to do something. And so I would train, set back, train, set back, train, set back. And then honestly, probably about a few weeks ago, I was just like, you know what? I was like, I'm done with like rules. Like, I'm just going and I'm taking it and I'm taking control of this narrative.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yeah.

Competing Again For His Kids

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Why? Like, why do you want to do that? Why are you doing putting yourself through this stuff?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

You know, I think there's a couple different reasons. Number one, and most importantly for me, is I have three young kids and I'm constantly talking to them at very young ages. Like, you know, my oldest is going to be five here in a week or a couple weeks. Then I have a two and a half year old and a nine month old. But even at young ages, I'm communicating with them like the importance of getting back up, trying again. Like, it's okay if you have a boo-boo, it's okay if you cry, but just get back up and keep moving. And the number one way for them to actually internalize and inherit that is to see me go through pain and to see me choose to do it anyway. And so I want to embody that for my kids, but then also for myself. Like, I've I've always been like I've it's I've actually been like very much like a rules follower my whole life. Like I don't get in trouble, I don't do stupid things. But on that same breath, like I'm a do-it-myself. Like you can't really tell me what to do, if that makes sense. It's it's funny how both of those operate together. And so for me, it's like I don't want to accept that I can't do the things that I want to do. So I'm gonna prove it to myself that I can. And if for some reason something happens that I can't, like I'm gonna push the threshold of what I'm physically capable of doing. I just want to see how far I can squeeze that out of myself.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

That's awesome, man. It's just what's crazy is just like hearing your answers, it's similar a lot of times to athletes and coaches I work with, where the the kids and being an example for your kids and like how that's kind of taken on an additional not level of motivation, but just like the understanding the example that you set for them and how you are as a parent. It's not so much about necessarily yourself and like, oh, I want to do this, this, this, this, and this. It's I want to do this because I want to be an example for my kids. Maybe the kids don't follow the same path that you're gonna take. Maybe they're not professional baseball players, maybe they don't run track and field, maybe they don't play football, these types of things. But I think we all kind of inherently know like you're gonna get knocked down, you're gonna have to come back, you're gonna have to face adversity and challenges, whatever you do. And I think that people, maybe the sooner that they understand that, they try to pass that message along to their kids as well. Uh, you know, I have the opportunity to work in professional baseball, and you have players and and coaches from everywhere, right? All across the world. Players from from different levels of just economic upbringings and family situations and those types of things. And it's just there's always a little bit of a shift. Like, I'm not advocating like players have kids right away. Um, but I'm saying, like, once they have their first kid or second kid and these types of things, and they're still in the game, and now they're 25, 26, 27, their just perspective changes a little bit. And it's I don't want to say a hundred percent across the board that way, but it's very common. And it's once you have that purpose of like, I'm gonna do this, and and I want to be the example for my kids, like, it's just interesting what happens. I'm not saying like people all of a sudden have success, and it's like, oh, I'm gonna make a ton of money and do these things, but it's just that perspective shifts. So hearing you talk about it, it's just it's interesting because yeah, I I work with other athletes and and people outside of professional baseball as well, and it's very common. And so kids are not that's something that I've talked about with people in the past. It's just like if somebody was to follow you, or if you were to to lead them, like what is the example that you'd want to teach? How what is the example you want to set? Are your actions aligning with those things? Like, it's so powerful when you kind of get out of your own head and you think about other people and how your actions and the way that you do things can impact them. So I appreciate you sharing that part of it.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yeah, it's it's actually really cool that you bring up the like the kid piece because I like some of the people I work with, like some of them who've become my closest friends, I'll be like, like a lot shifted for me when I had kids. And I can't go tell everybody, hey, go go have kids, right? So it's like you take like the lessons of like what it is like having kids did for me in the big part, right? Particularly like professional athletes, and I think some, not all, generalizing here, but like will shy away from the responsibility you carry as like an athlete, a public figure. And you know, for some people, it's just hey, I just want to go play baseball or basketball or football or golf because it's what I do. But you are an embodiment to a lot of people watching you in terms of what you represent, what you carry, and what is portrayed the way you behave. And I I do believe that if athletes took on that responsibility as like an honor, instead of it feeling like a burden, it would be feel like a privilege that I get to show all these people the best way to approach athletics, or at least the best way that I perceive it to be, and hopefully inspire the next generation to behave in a way that is should be, you know, it's not only accepted, but cheered for when it goes on in the public eye.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

I won't I I agree with you. Um, I think I'll give you, I think there's just hesitancy to do so because of the negativity that just surrounds anything. Right? Like anytime you put something out there, it's just like this guy is saying that we need to do A, B, and C. And now you're putting yourself out there, and just the vulnerability that comes with doing something like that, sometimes it's just easier to stay out of the light because they're in it so much all the time. And I also think you don't allow yourself that ability to like make a mistake, right? Like if something does happen, it's like, oh, you said that you're this, this, and this. And then if you change or you screw up or do these things, then you have to answer to that. I think it sometimes puts people in a in an odd spot. So I think it's almost just easier to avoid it, right? And just, hey, let me focus on on playing football right now. Like that's it. Like that's all I want to, all I want to do. Um, I don't want to bring up anything else. So I totally agree with your point. I'm more so just given the other side of it. It's just like I think that's part of why sometimes people are hesitant to, whether it's football, basketball, baseball, hockey, like any of those sports. Like, I think that's sometimes why it's just because of what comes with it from people constantly looking to pull them down. You know, there's a that uh analogy, like the crabs in the bucket, right? When there's a whole bucket of crabs and there one tries to get out, and it's so that that's what I think sometimes people think, or athletes or coaches think, is like, okay, I'm gonna do this. And then as soon as they start climbing out of that bucket or trying to do what they think is good, you got a hundred crabs trying to pull them right back down, and so it just becomes this almost like learned helplessness of like, dude, I don't even want to deal with that crab. So I'm just gonna do my thing, I'm gonna show up, go to work, I'm gonna play this sport or do this job, and I'm not gonna ruffle any feathers from there because I just don't want to deal with it. And so I think that's sometimes what hinders people from doing it. I just to speak for myself, I've felt the same way, right? Like, I I'm not gonna do a whole lot of stuff on social media or post these things, especially early in my career. I'm not going on podcasts, I'm not like I just I don't want it, I don't want to deal with the the after effects or the questions or maybe saying something wrong or stupid like while you're on it. But it's just like I don't know, you you kind of I've personally gotten over some of that because it's just like I've taken it as an opportunity to get reps to make mistakes, to learn, to grow, and do these types of things. So I think to kind of go back to your original point, like if if athletes, if people that have platforms looked at it as just like, you know what, I'm gonna make mistakes, I'm gonna say stupid shit, I'm gonna maybe say something controversial, but I believe this, and I'm gonna look at this as an opportunity for myself to grow, well then yeah, maybe maybe they do start to do a little bit more of that. So I've kind of answered both sides of that. But I think number one, that's why people don't. And number two, kind of my own reason for why I started doing a little bit more into that

Platforms, Negativity, And Energy Protection

SPEAKER_01 10:27

as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

The specificity and the nuance of this conversation is what I really like because one of the number one things I talk to the athletes and people I work with is you have to protect your energy. Like you only have so much energy to give to different things in life, whether it be sport, whether it be family, friends, media, whatever it may be. And so you have to guard that and you have to do things that fill your energy cup as opposed to continue to drain it. And so for this, this may be things that drain people's cups. And so they stay away from it. That's perfectly fine. And so advice in a nutshell, right, is cannot be applied to all scenarios. My point was more so of not even the social media, but just thinking like how people, like how you said, people will view certain things as like a burden. Like, I'm not here to be a role model, I'm not here to take on the responsibility of influencing future generations. But for me, it's like, can we redefine our relationship with that? And like for me, like what comes to mind is I think of a guy like Scotty Scheffler, who, ironically enough, my kids or my daughters, because they're old enough to know who he is, are like obsessed with Scotty Scheffler. So we're a big golfhouse, they love watching him. Anytime Scotty's on, we're watching the whole time. And so, like, I think of how he carries himself on the course. Of course, every competitor, and he just lost his mind a little bit, you know, at the opening or whatever weekend ago that was, where he was like, How is this always happening? Why is this happening? But for the most part, like you watch guys like him and they conduct themselves in a certain manner. And then they get on that podium, they answer the questions, and they're incredibly nuanced in their answers, and they apply like this is what I'm battling, this is what I endure as an athlete, where I'm trying to stroke the middle between I care a lot and hey, this isn't going to be super meaningful in my life. Being a dad is what makes my life meaningful. Being a good Christian for him is what makes it meaningful. And so everybody's answer is a little bit different. And it's less about going on social media or going on interviews and going on podcasts, but more so of reshifting than reframing the mindset of you know, having responsibilities is a privilege. And I get to be in this scenario to where the decisions I make matter and can affect and improve a lot of lives and people who are watching me.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah. No, I'm with you, man. I think it's I totally agree. I think it's helpful. Golfers are pretty good, right? At what they say and and being nuanced and being honest.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

It it they are. It what's super fun with golfers is like now there's like this, there's like becoming rivalries. I don't know that I like that in golf, to be honest. Like the Bryson Rory thing, I'm like, I kind of want them to like amend this thing, even if they like, and it's cool. I love different perspectives and different views, but I don't like the beefing in golf. I feel like golf's more of a gentleman's game. Not that other sports aren't, but that's my opinion on it.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah. No, it's it's fun to see. Uh not necessarily the beefing part, but like I I enjoy listening to their interviews after. I could go without the whole like this guy, this and this guy that. Like, just talk about your own process and how you're going about things and what that looks like. I I personally love that stuff. Uh, but yeah, it golfers seem to be way more open about a lot of that stuff than some of the other athletes across sports.

Reframing Responsibility As A Privilege

SPEAKER_00 13:46

What are some of the frameworks that you see baseball players use? Is it majority use a specific type of framework, or are there a million different frameworks that works individually for each player?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

I think it's more of the latter. I think that each guy is trying to figure out what works for him. They're just trying to figure out sometimes how to survive, how to make it to the next contract, how to make it to the next day. So like it just depends on a lot of times where they're at in their careers. I think each guy has frameworks for how they do certain things, right? Like pitchers and how they go about their their day-to-day is different than hitters. Starting pitcher versus reliever is going to be different how they approach each day. A guy who is, you know, an everyday player is gonna approach things different. Uh, position player is gonna approach things different than the guy who maybe is just kind of that role player. So everyone's just kind of trying to learn their way. Uh, and I think like when they're in the minor leagues, it's a really good time for them to experiment with different things and figure out like their own process. You hear this a lot in sports, right? It's just like trust the process. And I think we don't do a great job of always defining what that is for players, and by we I mean just like an industry as a whole. So I look at kind of the work that I do and and people in this space is just like helping players develop what that process is gonna look like. So it may be how to have confidence on on days where you just don't feel confident, uh, how to have a routine when you get in at three o'clock in the morning and we have a game at 6 30 that night, how to eat well when when you're on the road and maybe don't have a lot of options. So, really, a lot of just like how to fill in the blank after, I think is just that's what I do, and that's what a lot of coaches do is just like help with developing what that is. So it just depends player to player, right? Like some guys might be the most self-confident players in the world, right? Like they've always had success, they've always figured it out, they've always won, they've done these types of things, and then they get to the major leagues and they get punched in the face for the first time, and then it's like, shoot, like, how do I how do I deal with failure for the first time on a very public platform? That process is gonna be different than the guy who was, I don't know, he he undrafted and you know, maybe had injuries in the minor leagues, came up to the big leagues, had a day, got sent back down. Oh, he knows how to fail. He knows what it's like to get punched in the face and not have opportunities. How do you manage that? How do you have success when you've constantly, or how do you have confidence when you've constantly been told no? And and developing that that self-belief that maybe you the other guy has, but you don't have. So just long-winded way of saying, like, just kind of depends on the guys. You know, you'd like to think that, hey, if we do these, you know, five things across the board, we're gonna be really good and and mentally locked into what we need to do when we get to the major leagues. And I've just found, you know, being in professional baseball and being in the minor leagues for a while, like it's really tough to have that like cookie-cutter approach and say, like, if we just do these things, this is what it's gonna be and how it's gonna work. I think there's elements to it that you can do and and and pieces of the puzzle that you can kind of put out there for guys to kind of take. And but at the end of the day, I look at our role as coaches is just like to help them put it together as we go. But everyone's this is such a cop-out answer, but like everyone's just different. Uh, and it just depends on a lot of times where they're at in life, where they're at in their career, where they're at, you know, off the field as well. So that's kind of my answer

Why “Have Fun” Falls Short

SPEAKER_01 17:21

there.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

That truth, though, is what I have problems with, like on social media, is where you where you'll see in the media space or social media is people will say, if you do this in 30 days, you'll be great. If you just put this into your program, you'll solve all your problems. And they may that may have worked for them and that may work for others, but it is every individual's different. Every individual has different life experiences, has different genetics, and they need something different than just a cookie cutter approach. One thing I'm really curious from your experience with the people you worked with, I read a lot of studies of like high performance and underlying characteristics that enable that to occur. And recently I've been seeing more and more studies talk about the element of fun and doing things because they're fun and because they're you know enjoyable to you. And I'm very skeptical of those. And I'm curious to hear your opinion of like what percentage of guys that you've encountered over the years have fun at the forefront of performance?

SPEAKER_01 18:28

At the forefront? Probably not a whole lot, to be honest. Just because, like, I think the higher you get in professional baseball. So I I don't know your your exact like audience, but with professional baseball, right? Like you have your major leagues, those are the guys on TV, then you have the minor leagues, which is triple A, double A, high A, low A, you have teams at at your uh like spring training facilities, and then you have another team or two in the Dominican Republic. So you have players at all these different levels. So defining what fun is for some of these guys, some of them fun might be just like, hey, I want to the players that we might have signed from international uh the signings, their fun might be just hey, I want to get to the United States and and play ball there. A player going from A-ball to double A, their fun might just be like, hey, I played double A baseball, or uh maybe their fun in the big leagues is just like I want to make a lot of money. Maybe it's not necessarily about winning. So, like what that fun looks like for everyone is just different. And I think the higher you get to, like the less fun it becomes just because of some of the stuff we talked about earlier, right? The social media, the pressures that come with it, the the spotlight that comes with it. Yeah, there's these guys are paid a lot of money, but there's a lot of things that take away from that. You're away from your families for a long period of time. If you're not winning, that's not a whole lot of fun being in in a locker room and clubhouse like that. So it's just like to say, yeah, we just have to have fun, and and that's gonna bring you out your best. Like, okay, that's part of it, but what does that mean? And like defining what is your definition of fun. Maybe, maybe your fun is just like, hey, I'm gonna go out there and I'm just gonna pretend I'm a 10-year-old playing literally again, right? Where I'm just gonna go out there, do what I need to do, trust my abilities and and this type of thing, and then just go play. That's fine. That that might work for for one person. Another guy, fun might be like going out there and laughing and joking and not taking it seriously. That might not be fun for somebody else, right? They have to go out there and be serious. Like, that's not fun. This is my job, this is my freaking livelihood. Like that guy across or on the mound is trying to take my money. Like, I'm not going out there laughing and joking. This is not fun to me, and that's not gonna bring out that player's best. So to specifically just say, like, go out there and have fun. Like, I understand the concept of it, but I also think that there's more layers to it as well. So I to me, I always it I asked you, like, why do you do this? Like, what is for this? It would be like, what is fun and defining that, and once we define what that is, okay, like how can I set up my day and a system around that to allow me to have fun in the moment or in the game? Because if it's just based around, I don't know, winning and losing or like making a lot of money, odds are you may not have a lot of fun, like at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Joe Mazzula had a really good answer to this question, and it was similar. He said, when people ask me about just getting back to having fun, he's like, to me, that's a cop-out. He was like, similar to what you're saying, and I'm gonna paraphrase him here, is like, fun is like an undefinable term because everybody views that a little bit differently. And like in my own experience, and like when I reflect on and the people you talk to in the higher up performance, it's less about the fun and more about the like pursuit of like something meaningful and figuring out how do I. Get better? How can I maximize? How can I compete at the highest level? How can I show up and for a lot of people dominate, not just be here, but how can I dominate in my space? And to simplify it to fun in itself, to me, is oversimplifying. And that's why, like, that's why I really like looking like at different studies and why or how things certain things are applied, because there's no universal definition for any type of virtue. And it's much more nuanced. And it's understanding within for me, like it is like what about this study is either applicable to me or not? Where is it falling and where is it failing? And how can I use this as like just like relative information, but understand this probably doesn't apply to me. Now, the conversation in youth sports is to me is a lot different than high performance. Youth sports, I've said the number one component of a coach is to, if you're successful or not, is to see how many kids sign up to play again the next year. So that way you can keep them in, you can develop them and you can build that feedback loop, teach them how to move through adversity, teach them how to continue to grow with success and what that looks like as well. Because there's two different ends of the spectrum there of learning how to handle the certain components that come with each one of those. But that's why I really do, and I kind of came into that question like with my own bias, with I hate the fun conversation. But I always want to hear, you know, people who are in that environment every single day what their version and perspective of it is when they see certain of the highest performers in the world and how they endure their day-to-days.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest on this. Like, I haven't, there have been times where I've brought that up to people, right? Like where they're super stressed out or they're, you know, they have a lot of things going on off the field or on the field, whatever it is. And it's just like, man, you just got to get back to having fun, right? Where they're they're still stressed out, but there are so many ways to kind of navigate that conversation. Like, that's not the initial conversation, right? Where I'm meeting with guys, it's like, what does it mean to have fun? And like, what does that look like? And going from there. But so to I'm not gonna say sit here and be like, I'm out on the concept because I have talked about those things with with people in the past, but I think like it's probably I don't know if I would say it's the most important piece to being a high performer. I could be swayed and you come ask me this in another year, and maybe I'll feel differently. But as I sit right now, I don't I wouldn't say that's like the most important thing to being a high performer. It's helpful. Yeah, if you're having fun during it, like yeah, it'd be great. Um, but that's sometimes just isn't the case.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

That's why I love having these conversations, though, because I'm always open to new, like new information. If someone can provide a super compelling argument that this is what fun means and this is how you excel at the highest level, sign me up. It's not that I'm like anti-that. It's just based off of yeah, yeah. It's like based off, excuse me, current information. It's if I want to become a high performer and the people I'm working with that are high performers, I'm not gonna sit down and be like, hey, what are we doing for fun today? You know, it's yeah. That's not gonna be my icebreaker first question. Probably not, yeah. What do you think is the most important attribute to build to be a high performer?

Intentions And Reflection For High Performance

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Good question. I I'm gonna I don't know exactly. Uh, and that's gonna be my first answer. I think that there are parts of it that are important. I think number one would just be like setting intentions, not not necessarily goals, like setting intention, like what do I want to accomplish today? Uh, right? Like when I wake up, what's the first thing I want to do? Like you have this is we've already discussed, let's let's pretend that we've already established that, hey, I want to be a high performer. Great. The first thing I do when I wake up is this it's take a cold shower, it's read 10 pages of a book, it's get in the cages, it's eat the right foods, it's whatever it is. But I think like setting an intention or having intention set like throughout the course of a day is actually really important. I think a lot of times we're just going through days where it's just all right, yeah, I want to do this, but I'm not really sure how to get there. And I don't think we always do know how to get there. I don't think that there are roadmaps and like exact ways to do things. I mentioned this earlier with the whole cookie cutter approach. I just don't think that's possible. We all have our own journeys, we all have our own way of doing things and figuring things out, but I don't think you're able to do that if you don't take that first step, right? Like if you don't have something that you're going to do. You see this a lot just in baseball, we're we're there every day, right? Or from beginning of February until hopefully the end of October, you're you're there. And to go through days and not necessarily have a plan of how you're going to attack them or what you want to accomplish or a drill of what you want to do or a conversation of what you're going to talk about, I just think you're you start wasting days. And when you start wasting days, you start not maximizing performance and you're not going to be the best version of yourself. And I think that that same thing applies to any avenue, whether it's baseball, football, uh, business person, doctor, lawyer, whoever. Like if you're just waking up, scrolling the phone for an hour, and then, all right, shoot, I gotta get up and go to go to work. Like, and then you don't really have a plan for what you're gonna do at work, and you're just kind of going through the motions. Like, you're not, I don't believe you're gonna become a high performer. I just don't. And so I'd say, like, that's probably the number one thing for me is just like, do you have an intention for the day? Right? Or it can be simple, right? Like, I'm gonna today I'm just gonna call a loved one and I'm just gonna tell them thank you for something. Like, I don't, I don't know what it is, but like setting those intentions and like starting to have a plan that you can execute throughout the day, I think is really important. I'm not gonna get too far into this, but just like there's so many things that we can cannot control. There's very few things that we can control. So the things that you can control, like freaking take advantage of it, right? Like get stuff done. And I think that's what high performers at the end of the day are able to do is they just get stuff done. They fail, they make mistakes, they screw up, they do these types of things, but the next day they're back at it and doing something, continuing to progress. And I think like that's the journey of a high performer. So for me, it's number one is just like, yeah, setting setting intentions and being able to do that. And then number two, and this ties into this is just taking the time to reflect, right? Like, did I do what I said I was gonna do? Yes or no? Cool. What am I gonna do tomorrow? All right, boom. Now you're you just start to create this process for yourself of getting stuff done. But I think you have to set aside time to reflect. I think it's a really overlooked skill that isn't necessarily practiced a lot because it's just like any sport, anything that we do, right? Like we do it, we finish, we don't really think about it, right? Like we don't think about what went well, what did I learn from it, what would I do different next time. Some people do, but I think overall, like if you want to be a high performer, you're constantly a learner. And I think like that is a part of this is reflection is learning. And if we can get into that to the habit of reflecting, taking time to think about something, whether it was a game, maybe it was a month, like whatever it is, but like setting aside that time to reflect and and learn, like that's how you're gonna grow and continue to be a high performer. So those are the two things that I think are important. Again, it's not like the end all be all where it's like if I set intentions and I reflect, like I'm gonna be a high performer. I don't know. I but I think that's what I've seen in in people that are, and I think that that helps. So that would be kind of my way of answering that.

Identity Built In All Conditions

SPEAKER_00 29:47

I look at like the identity of what a high performer is, and I heard this recent uh definition of like what identity is that actually changed how I define identity. So I used to define identity as the collective actions when the the virtues that you want to with like uphold are hardest to do. But where I heard Alex or Mosey talk about like what is identity, and it's the aggregate of all behaviors and all conditions, not just when things are hard, not just when they're easy, but all conditions. And I loved it and I've begun to adopt my belief system around that as well. And so when you look at athletes and it's what are the behaviors that we are implementing in all conditions, and what labels are we assigning to ourselves? Not labels that we're accepting from others, but what labels are we giving ourselves that our behaviors then can be downstream and then confirm and you build this or confirm that you're that identity and you have this just cyclical nature of I am the type of person who is intentional. I am the type of person who is curious and a learner, I am the type of person who is a high performer. And then all decisions underneath will confirm that or reject that. And then that's I'm so glad you brought up the reflection piece because it it is pretty shocking to me, like the number of people and you look at performance across a whole that aren't reflecting. They're not taking recognition of everything that they are doing. They're not taking recognition of the things that they're doing well, that they need to improve upon, the things that they would do differently, the things that they're learning, and actually spending time in that space to again build a further conviction of proof of concept of who you are and your capabilities.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, I I agree with with all that. I think the identity piece is important. I think sometimes we don't we don't always identify what our identity is. I I don't think that there's time spent doing that because it was, I'm supposed to just do this. I'm supposed to just follow these footsteps or do these types of things. And I think sometimes that can get lost along the way. And I think a way to kind of understand that and learn that for yourself is reflecting, right? Is sitting down and like, man, the last year plus, like I really, I really don't like the things I've been doing. I really don't like the performance I've been getting. I really don't like the person I've become. I don't, I don't like where I'm heading. And then making the conscious choice to to change that and being able to, okay, I want to be somebody that sets intentions. I want to be somebody that can be counted on. I want to be a leader, I want to do these things. Okay, what does that look like? Boom, boom, boom, lay it out there. And then, like you mentioned, using those as kind of your benchmarks moving forward, like, am I doing these things or not? But I think like to kind of touch a little bit more on reflection, it's a process that I just personally speaking, like I miss, right? Like there, there's times where I don't reflect. Uh I'll go a week, two weeks, and I'm like, shoot, like I need to think about this last week. Or, you know, I've had these conversations or I was impacting these environments and doing these types of things, and I haven't sat down and really thought about it. But I think like finding the time to get kind of back on the horse, like that's what it's that's what it looks like, right? Like, this is something I want to do. There are days that I miss, there are times where maybe I don't. Okay, let's let's get back on track today and doing these types of things. But I think like the other thing when it comes to just reflection, a lot of times just talking to you now. I I was thinking about this was I like feedback and obviously you like good feedback, right? Like, hey, you're doing a good job, or like these things are going well, and like we appreciate ABC. But also, if you like feedback, you better be able to like critical feedback too. And I think sometimes we don't always receive that, whether it's critical or good, and I because people are so caught up in like their own space, like the the whole like spotlight effect, right? Like we think like the spotlight is always on us when in reality, like Josh is worried about Josh and Colin's worried about Colin, and this guy's worried about this guy, and this person, like so. I'm gonna wrap it up here, but like we think that the spotlight's always on us, it isn't. And so when we're searching for feedback or wanting feedback, we may not always get it. So, a really good way to be able to get feedback is to give it to yourself. And I think like that for me is what reflection is about is just taking the time to give yourself some feedback on what you're doing, right? Like, this is what I want to do, this is what I wanted to execute, this is what I wanted to accomplish today. Did I do those things? What would I change differently? What would I what would I do the next time and doing these types of things? So I think I'm gonna wrap this up here now. Is just like for me, the reason I started really reflecting more is just because like sometimes you don't get a whole lot of feedback. So if you're not getting it from other people, like give yourself some feedback and be critical and kind of zoom out and understand like it's nobody's fault that you may not be getting feedback because of the spotlight effect. So because you have the spotlight on yourself, like give yourself some feedback and be critical and and also give yourself some good feedback too. So hope that kind of makes sense. Like as I was going. I'm kind of processing that now for really the first time, like as I'm I'm talking to you. Uh, but that's kind of interesting to me. Maybe there's something to that for for other people as well. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

It's really hard to your point. Like I think about even my journey within podcasting to get feedback from my guests, other than, oh, it was great, had a good time. Now, some people, and and it it means like so much to me, will actually, without me even asking, give feedback like better than just or more in depth and just oh, great conversation. And I those feel amazing. But so what I had to do, and to be honest, I am like a I call myself an overthinker. Like I put myself in that chronic overthinking bucket. And so I'm reflecting in real time majority of the time. And so for me, instead of I don't need a process to reflect, I need a process sometimes to stop reflecting. But I'm always in what I'll do or what I it's funny how like things shift. And to get myself into the reflection process, what I used to do is, and I have athletes and people do this as well, is I used to tape something at the mirror on my mirror of like reflecting on the values that I wanted to uphold as an individual as part of my identity. And every night I would check off, am I doing this? Am I doing this? And then now I'm at a point where I'm constantly thinking. I shouldn't say I'm constantly thinking, but I'll do a decision, I'll come to a decision and I'll be like, is this in alignment with who I am or what I want to achieve? And then I'm able to say no, kind of in those moments. And then collectively, you know, we make a millions of decisions unconsciously. I'll be going back just throughout the day and just like thinking, thinking, thinking. And so sometimes I actually have to wind myself back in that reflection piece. And that's the the complexities of like, you know, human nature and knowing yourself is when do I need to reflect? When do when do I need to take a step back and not reflect? And so, like, that's like the the tug of war where you have to to know yourself. And I do believe that a lot of learning yourself is that front-end work of like, okay, I'm gonna actually take the time to go out and seek or give myself and seek feedback. I'll say what I've learned with podcasting, this is like the cool parts of AI. For me, where I had to learn, you know, I'm over a hundred episodes in, and some of that's naturally as I engage in conversation, I get become a better interviewer, but I'll plug into AI transcripts of interviewers that I really like. Uh, you know, obviously popular Joe Rogan, I think of Chris Williamson, I think of, you know, busting with the boys and like these types of conversations that I really like. And I'll put those transcripts in and I'll tell AI, hey, absorb these transcripts, you know, find the interview styles, what makes them unique, what makes them good. And then I'll plug mine in and I'll say, you know, based off of the transcript I just gave you, absorb my interview style, talk about what's unique, what I'm good at, but then also tell me where I need to improve and how to enhance and how to lean into these things. And so what I'll do is I'll go and I'll plug in transcripts and say, give me feedback. And so that's another way to check myself when I come out of interviews or when I'm looking to get better and I can't get the type of feedback I want. And I need to know if myself, is this true, is this honest, or is it, is it a lie to myself? I'll utilize AI in that capacity to be a coach to me.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Man, that's awesome. And you learned that on your own, or just was like, hey, I'm gonna try this.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

And so the the AI thing was before I like started using AI, one of my mentors was like, 'cause I'm like, I need feedback. I'm like, it's so easy as a player because you're constantly given feedback from your coaches by default, or by, hey, I struck out today. That's feedback. But when you're an interviewer, other than just, you know, downloads or you know, subscribers or conversation, like usually in these conversations, like when we get off air, most people don't like want to offend you, or they don't want to spend the time after having a long conversation, be like, hey, you should improve X, Y, and Z. And so I get that. And so I've really just stopped asking for feedback. And I either let people on their own give it to me, or I'll again go to AI and just start plugging it in and get that coaching feedback I need.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Dang, that's awesome, man.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Using it to your advantage. Good for you. Yeah, that's I there's AI doomsdayist. I like to be one that uses AI. I don't delegate my thinking to AI. I just use AI to help me think better and and operate at a higher level. Well, that's high performing. It's I, you know, I identity piece, I aim to be a high performer and think what would a high performer do here? And so that's that's like my own path and decision-making tree that I go through. That's awesome, man.

Coaching Bullheaded High Performers

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Now, for you, it's when you think of people that you like to work with, if you can't answer this, like you don't have to answer a person. What is the type of personality that you click the most with when you're coaching?

SPEAKER_01 40:10

I think that the person I probably connect most with is somebody that just is extremely bullheaded.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Yeah, I was not expecting that answer.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Uh just because like I I've never played like professional baseball. I played in college, and when I played in college, I would the mental side was something I personally struggled with. So I was a catcher, I had the hips, and I just overthought the heck out of the game and was sometimes a little stubborn, uh, not sometimes a lot of times pretty stubborn with things, and I still think I am to a certain extent, but I've used it in a way to kind of help me along the way, and so I kind of notice people who are not set in their ways, but bullheaded, yeah. Where it's just like, this is what I want to do, this is how I want to get there, this is what and I feel like I can connect with them, not right away, but being able to slow play it and notice things and like offer a suggestion or be around, or like I enjoy those ones a little bit because I know how much time they're gonna take, but I know like once that person is bought in, you got them. And I don't mean like you got them in a way of like, oh now, like we, but like they're gonna be invested and they're gonna give you freaking everything that they have because they know like they want to do this and they see the benefit of it. And I don't have to sell them, sell's the wrong word. I don't have to to convince them, I don't have to say like they are freaking bought in and they're gonna go to work and they're gonna put in the time that they need to to get better at this area and they're gonna do these types of things. So they're not the easiest ones to connect with at first, and I don't bullheaded isn't necessarily like a specific personality type, but I think I enjoy working with individuals like that more just because you know how hard it is to work with them, and you know how hard it is to like have earn their trust and to get them to really value what you have to say and your feedback and what you're seeing and your observations. So I think it's because of how I am, and I think that's I don't know, just something I've kind of noticed. You know, you you have the guys who are like, yeah, let's talk, let's work about these things, and like that's awesome. And and you enjoy all players and coaches that way, but I think those ones that are are a little bit more difficult. I don't like it in the moment at times, whether it's players or coaches or front offices, like it's hard. It sucks sometimes because you're like, man, like I really think if we did blah blah blah, like it would help you get better at XYZ, but you also can't force it. And I've learned that over the years, and fortunately have been able to do this in in baseball for a little bit now. Where it becomes difficult is when you're with a team or individuals that I coach like on the side or or do speaking engagements where you have a very limited amount of time and you're like, man, like we we gotta go. Like we gotta we have to make adjustments now, or you sometimes have to force feed it. And I just don't think that works long term. But I think if you're able to kind of see things out, that's when you really see like this work kind of thrive at its at its best. So where I'm going with that is just like I think that's important in this role as a high performer, high performance specialist, uh, mental performance coach, like not necessarily force feeding things, letting the game kind of come to you, understanding you have a job to do, but you know, working with tough players, coaches, front offices, like that's part of the gig. And like those people are high performers already for a reason. They're gonna have preconceived ways of doing things. But once you can start working with a Them and have an impact, it freaking the sky's kind of the limit with a lot of those types of people. So yeah, that'd be my my answer there.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

I'm a little fuzzy on on the theory. So if I'm wrong, you can correct me about that. That feels like the application of like nudge theory, where it's I don't come in with this big agenda. It's I give you a little nugget here, I give you another nugget here. And then over time, those nuggets compound, and then all of a sudden it goes from, hey, I just gave you one thing, like, hey, notice this, try this, to all of a sudden now it's a full-blown conversation. You're with someone and they're they're convicted in the process of what you're trying to build together. Am I wrong in no you're right.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

And I think like the the thing, so like where I'm at now, like I'm able to be with a team every day. So you don't necessarily have to like force things, and I don't think that works for anybody ever. But I'm there, I'm observing things, I'm around, I'm a part of the ecosystem. So you should be able to just notice behaviors and and and make small changes to it throughout the course of a day. There's individuals and teams that I've worked with in the past where you're not there every day. So you your your nugget that you drop is still there, but you may not see the the impact of it in real time, or you may miss the some behaviors along the way that you know may not be beneficial. So you don't have that necessarily like one-on-one face-to-face coaching that is it you're able to do in the moment, but it's similar, all right, where you're giving nuggets or suggestions. I touched on this a little bit earlier, but when it comes to you asked me like the one or two things, or like whatever the things I kind of like believe in, make a high performer. And I said, I don't know. And I'm gonna tie this into here. The stuff that I suggest, the nudges, the the little nuggets that are dropped. I don't know if that's going to work for that person in the moment. I know that it's worked for maybe somebody in the past. But the one thing that I asked for when it when I work with players and coaches is this that you try it, and number two, you give me feedback, right? Like, is it working or not? Because like it what works for one guy might not work for another, which may work for somebody else, which may not for somebody else. So, like that constant like feedback, that constant little nudges and these types of things, like, yeah, I'm gonna give them, but it may not work in this moment for you. And what does it mean to work? Like, does it help you relax? Does it help you stay calm? Do you feel confident? Are you more focused? Is there attention where it needs to be? Like, these are the the intentions behind the nudges. We got to have their feedback. So it's asking them after like was that helpful for you? Do you see this as part of your process moving forward? What parts can we kind of adjust and move along the way? So, yes, they're nudges in that moment, but like those nudges also are very fluid as well.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

So, what do you think is like the appropriate level of time to see if something new works or not? I don't know on that either.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

For some guys, it's a game or one at bat where it's like, hey, I'm I'm trying to be more focused, focused here, um, or I'm trying to, you know, execute this pitch in this spot and they don't in that one inning. So it's like, all right, that didn't work. Like, I don't think that that's enough time. But when you're talking about we need results instantly today for tonight's game, well, I don't care what I think. Like, we got to get results because that's the level of performance that we're working at. So that's what I say, I don't know, because it just kind of depends on your environment and the situation around you. I do think it takes time to ultimately, like, if it's going to be a part of you and your your process, your system, I think it's gonna take time. What that time is, I don't have a specific like two weeks. If you do these things, you're gonna be great and like everything's gonna be fine and you're gonna feel better and confident. Like, I'm not gonna sit here and BS you. So I I don't know.

When It’s Time For Tough Love

SPEAKER_00 47:53

How do you work with the guys that seem to have a problem for every solution that you give? Is there a point where you're like, well, you just gotta figure it out, buddy? Like, what like what does that transition of conversation look like?

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Sometimes that's my answer, right? Like you'll you give the people everyone that I work with the the same bandwidth, the same tools, this the love, but sometimes it is a hard conversation. It was like dude, we've been we've been talking about this for years, and you're just continuing to to find problems for solutions. Like, when are you gonna stop? And some sometimes I've done this where you hold up a mirror in front of them, and it's just like would you tell this to yourself? Like, because I think sometimes like people just want to hear and ruminate and like let all this stuff get out, but they don't really want to process it because it's just easier to deflect it. So I think like sometimes that happens. So I'm not afraid at times to tell a guy, like, all right, like you just gotta figure it out. Like sometimes that's just what it is at the end of the day. But I I do think like I'm not doing that right away. It it takes you're you're you're you're 10 minutes in, you gotta figure it out, man. Like you're you're you're factoring in a whole lot of things into that conversation, right? Like the depth of the relationship, how long the the frequency of conversations, uh, how how many times you've been talking about a certain thing. Like it's uh there's so many things that come into my decision-making process before just saying that. But sometimes that that that needs to be said to people, and sometimes I need to hear it myself. So yeah, there's a there's a lot of things, but that would be my my kind of answer to that one.

Where To Find Josh And Closing

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Hey, uh, I appreciate you, brother. And I want to make sure we get you out of here because you got places to be. But thanks for coming on, man. I had a blast in the conversation. If people want to reach out to you, they want to you know work with you, where can people find you? You know, what do you got going on?

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Yeah, social media, uh, Instagram x at josh underscore kaju k o-z U C H. I have a blog that I do on Substack, high performance strategies. So yeah, follow me on there, LinkedIn. Uh happy to connect, happy to answer questions, jump on podcast. Like, I I enjoy doing this stuff. I enjoyed talking shop. Colin, I appreciate you you know having me on here. And and I did not feel like this was, you know, any sort of like interview. It's been great. It felt like a just a free-flowing conversation, man. So I you talk about feedback, like I'll give it to you right here. I think it's been awesome. I I've I've just enjoyed the natural conversation. It's crazy. I looked at the clock, it's like we're almost at an hour already, and it hasn't even felt like that. So keep doing what you're doing. And yeah, appreciate being on here.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Nah, I appreciate you, brother. Appreciate the kind words. Honestly, it means a lot. Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Tune in next week. Check us out, athleticfortitude.com, subscribe to our YouTube channel, download the podcast. Five stars only, maybe. Appreciate you, Josh.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Thanks, man.