E40 | Why Old Leadership Development Programs Fail

Today on GETTING TO UNSTUCK, we are looking into the reasons why old leadership development programs are falling short 🫣

Join us as we explore:
-the outdated methodologies that hinder growth and innovation.
-real-world examples of leadership failures and what we can learn from them.
-practical strategies for creating dynamic, effective leadership development programs.

Discover how you can cultivate leaders who are adaptable, forward-thinking, and equipped to navigate the complexities of the modern workplace.

Getting to Unstuck is a live podcast hosted by Christal Duncan, Colin Kingsmill, and Carol Vickers from Whole Human Coaching. Find out more about our work and clients at https://wholehumancoaching.com

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Transcript

Colin Kingsmill: [00:00:00] Hello again. Good morning. 

Christal Duncan: I know it's episode 40 actually. Can you believe 

Carol Vickers: that?

Christal Duncan: Because it's funny because a year, less than a year ago, We knew that we wanted to start a podcast and we wanted to start putting things out there into the world. And here we are, and we've already done a episode or about to wrap up. We're starting episode 40 and we'll wrap it up shortly. And how amazing is it when we, when we see something come to fruition and when we have an idea and it aligns and we're in alignment with the people that we are creating.

That idea. And we're bringing it into the world. It's a very powerful thing. Mm hmm. And speaking of very powerful things, [00:01:00] We are today we're going to be talking about the, I mean, the title is about, it's called why old leadership development programs fail, but it's not really about those old leadership development programs because they're, they're behind us.

We're going to be talking today rather about the reasons that leadership development has fallen short. In 2024 for a lot of people, when they hear the words leadership development it can bring up a lot of things for them. It can either be having to sit through painful seminars. When I, I remember the first, My first introduction to leadership development was through books that were written by an older white man who used only sports analogies to talk about leadership.

And while those points were valid, it didn't connect with me on a, this is who I am level. I did take some of those, those, those those strategies and I have used them, but it, It was leadership is like many [00:02:00] things. It's so much bigger than what the word can mean for us. So let's talk about it from 

Colin Kingsmill: like, sorry, sorry.

You probably would have benefited more. And I'm thinking back as I did kind of dove into the same sort of leadership garbage books at the, at the same time, roughly we probably would have done better to read history and biographies, you 

Christal Duncan: know,

Colin Kingsmill: It was all just so schlocky back then, wasn't it? 

Carol Vickers: It was written at a time when if you looked into, peeked into any boardroom in corporate North America, it would look the same. There would be, there would be 12, mostly white, tall men in suits. And they would be speaking the same language because they could speak it together and then they're, you know, the door would open and, and the poor secretary would bring in her coffee.

I mean, that's what leadership looked like when those books were written. [00:03:00] Unless you're 

Colin Kingsmill: with the Dynasty or Dallas or the Colbys, right? Yeah, yeah. There are a few strong women out there, but they were, yeah, in TV series. 

Christal Duncan: So it is interesting because there are ways and just. And just to set the record straight, we are today we're pointing out we're not poo pooing on what people have done in the past.

We're pointing out where it is where life, where, where we are recognizing and things are emerging. And we're going to be talking about that shortly in the world that we're in, in, in 2024. So, so here we are in 2024, but also It's not just the year or the date, it's about what's going on in the world and the world that we're a part of and what is emerging and what is coming to the surface and what life is calling us forward into as leaders because everybody is a leader, right?

So this leadership is not something elite. It's a, it's where you are right now. It's what your choices are. So let's [00:04:00] talk first. I would love to hear from both of you about. What are some of the ways that we recognize that leadership is is leadership development or leadership training is falling, is no longer meeting is no longer current to where we're at now?

Colin Kingsmill: I think the emergency room analogy is probably good to, to throw in here, right? I think what all of us have seen over the past few years is This sensation that when people come into a coaching session or leadership development session, it might be fine for that hour or those few hours that you're there feels a little bit like a triage.

And then they go back out to the war zone, right? Which is day to day. Working and they it's like, it's like, you come back with the same sickness. You come back with the same injuries almost into the emergency room. Right? So, I think that is kind of the evidence. 

Carol Vickers: [00:05:00] And I think you're right calling that many people who lead development program.

professional development or coaches like us, we see the same thing that maybe people did see in the, in the operating room in a war zone. Oh, I patched this person up last week. Oh my goodness, look, they've got, now they've got this and we are seeing it over and over again. But I want to, I want to start with some props actually to the whole HR industry 

Christal Duncan: because 

Carol Vickers: In the last 40 years, what has developed is the realization that we do need leadership.

Yeah, that's true. That we do need professional development. So while I think we're still in early stages on that, it's something that wasn't even acknowledged 50 years ago, you became a leader because you were, I don't know, the kid, you, you knew somebody or you stayed long enough. 

Christal Duncan: Yeah. Or you were in sales development because you, the, the company was, was dependent on you getting sales.

And [00:06:00] so there was, there was lots of sales development. But not so much about leadership and I think you're 

Colin Kingsmill: totally right and we don't want to it's so easy to look back at history and go, Oh, look what they did. Right. And that was wrong. And this is wrong. And I'm always asking the question. What are we doing today?

That will be abysmal in 10 years. Right? So, so absolutely. You're totally right, Carol. But I think we all need to recognize that the world is changing. It's dramatically changed. And whether it was the pandemic or something else, but it feels as though we are at that fourth turning that end of an empire, that end of an era there is there is, I guess what I'm trying to articulate is it's no longer sort of an eyes wide It's an eyes wide open moment that everything has changed.

Everything has shifted. So absolutely no blame and no fault looking back in the rear view mirror. But I think what we can do in our new sort of approach to coaching and We're calling it coaching reimagined, right? And, and, and leadership development [00:07:00] reimagined. And we're saying, let's all recognize that it's not business as usual.

Carol Vickers: That's the relief. And that's what I want to invite us to do today is like we were talking before. It's like when we're all at a friend's house eating dinner and And everybody takes a bite of dinner and goes, Oh, isn't that yummy? And then it goes around the table. And finally, perhaps it's the host who is, as the guest to say, you know, this is, this is actually perfectly awful.

I'm sorry. And everybody goes, Oh, thank heaven. Thank you for saying that out loud. So here we are saying out loud, it's been okay. But thank heavens we can now look at something else. Yeah, 

Christal Duncan: yeah. So I think some of the ways that I look back and I look back on leadership development, kind of like how I look back on younger versions of myself.

It's like I was doing the best I could with what I knew at the time or what I had access to, you know, as a parent, you you want to have that love and that [00:08:00] compassion for the younger version of you as a parent. Yeah. And I, I think about that in terms of leadership development, just like many other things in the world.

So some of the ways that I think that it's leadership development programs are, are often fail even today, as we're sitting here, some of them that I see out there and that I hear people talking about is When there's a focus on weaknesses rather than strengths. And even if it's not said overtly, if the focus is on how you can get better at this to do this better, like I, there's, it's still very exclusionary.

It's a very binary way to look at us rather than seeing ourselves as dynamic and evolving and multidimensional. It sees it as this is the problem and everything is still problem centric. Yes, you're approaching your development 

Colin Kingsmill: instead of focusing genius and the brightness and the best part of somebody right 

Christal Duncan: possible 

Colin Kingsmill: and [00:09:00] what's possible I'll never be a financial person numbers Excel spreadsheet person right but in the past it was like oh well that's your weakness right so you better figure out how to do that yeah hold on.

What are the possibilities if I spent my energy on that little niche? Yes, that I know how to do really well. So I think that's the 

Christal Duncan: pivot that needs to happen. 

Carol Vickers: And we see this still in corporate work, that the performance evaluations, the one on ones are often focused on, well, we've got to fix this, or this is where, this is where your development needs to be.

And, and that is okay. If it's taken from that compassionate perspective, because we do all have places where we could be better at what we're doing. And being able to see those, maybe because we don't, we don't see them, we did have the blinders on, is valuable. But having them brought to our attention or bringing that forward in a course or a program, [00:10:00] because it's been recognized by the team, we all need to work on this, is, can be done in a very positive manner instead.

Christal Duncan: Yeah. Yeah. I also want to bring up something, Colin, that you brought up in our conversations. Behind the scenes, we have regular, not just, not just business conversations together, but we're also dreaming and imagining this. We're developing our programming in our coach training and our leadership training.

We have some incredible conversations. And one of the things, Colin, that you brought up was about the And kind of looking at that little slice of time, let's say for the last 40 years, where there's kind of been a separation from wisdom teaching and timeless, timeless and what we've, what someone Adrian Murray Brown calls emergent strategy and for something to emerge.

Carol, what is the what does it mean again? 

Carol Vickers: Emergent means. arising from 

Christal Duncan: arising from yeah, so it's like the a collective wisdom and You know, [00:11:00] and that's something that is lacking in a lot of a lot of development programs to be honest 

Colin Kingsmill: Yeah totally, it's it's kind of like The last 30 years or, you know, I guess 30 or so that I've been, you know, I did my MBA and all that stuff, right?

It's like, it's, it's, it's almost like it was based on a sports club, right? Like, it was based on, on kind of modernity, right? And, and not looking back and maybe the history books and the and the biographies and things like that are where to where to start. But, you know, things the the leadership development of modernity, I think, no longer suits 2024 

Carol Vickers: right?

Colin Kingsmill: And however, we want to look at through whichever prism you have to go back in time because there have been great leaders and and great lessons, right? Right. 

Christal Duncan: Yeah. And 

Colin Kingsmill: wisdom. 

Christal Duncan: Yeah. Totally. 

Colin Kingsmill: And it's almost like, it's almost like leadership in [00:12:00] the last 30 or 40 years has been a bit of a blood sport, you know, just a bit gruesome.

Christal Duncan: The competitiveness. Yeah. Yeah. 

Colin Kingsmill: Very, very competitive and 

Christal Duncan: very divisive. 

Colin Kingsmill: Yeah. Divisive, competitive. That's your team. This is my team. This is how we're going to tackle each other. And today, I feel like today, it's time for cooperation and not competition, as we 

Christal Duncan: enter 

Colin Kingsmill: this new era of Aquarius and, well, we don't go that long here, 

Carol Vickers: but that's, you know.

And that competitive nature had leaders vying against each other. Mm hmm. I recall being shocked recently of talking to a leader who literally was being thrown under the bus by his team, not invited to meetings that where he was, it was mandatory. They didn't put it in his calendar. Like they were really setting him up for failure.

So there, I think addressing that underlying sense of scarcity, which we've talked about a [00:13:00] lot in our various conversations is part of it, but it is also inviting that. That wisdom you're speaking about Colin, and I know when I started coaching back in 2006 2007 You could not talk about spirituality.

That was like, there were certain topics that were off the table You did not bring that into a professional conversation And that is one of the, when we look at what is being what is emerging as professional development now. Spirituality is a big piece of it. Recognizing our humanity, 

Christal Duncan: our wholeness, right?

Like that it's not like there's certain we're not, we are, we're whole, but if we, but whole does not mean we're a pie. Whole means you're always whole, right? There's, there's, there's not these segmented areas of our lives and that old, that old way of seeing of, of seeing how we develop as leaders is that this is these, this This element of who I am is reserved for this part of my life rather than [00:14:00] seeing literally the emergent thing.

Whatever's rising is a part of who I am. One of the things that I I, I see now, and I've, and I've become much more sensitive. To it in the last couple of years has been the idea of the, how there's, we are very, still very exclusionary in how we view leadership. It's still very ableist. It's still lacks diversity of thought, diversity of experience, diversity of race, diversity of of.

Age, right? Like we, we tend to even I think in our culture, in our Western culture, we tend to idolize and youth. And I want to just put a little, I want to put a little asterisk on that. And I'm not saying, cause I love I love, I've worked with a lot of young adults and I love the passion and the fervency and the passion of youth does change the world, but we do become enamored with that.

And we tend to think that, That's [00:15:00] where, that's where the best energy and the best ideas come from. We prioritize those voices in many ways where again, that emergence. view of things is like, everything belongs, every voice belongs. There's, there's room at everybody for, there's room for everybody at this table.

And our, our Western colonized perspective has been like, you belong only here or here or here. It's like, you, there's, you're assigned to places, but 

Colin Kingsmill: leadership. I see. I see it a lot like this, this idea of it feels like we are addicted. Right. To New 

Christal Duncan: To new. Yeah. 

Colin Kingsmill: New, new. 

Christal Duncan: Mm-Hmm. . 

Colin Kingsmill: Sorry I interrupted you there, 

Christal Duncan: but No, no, it's good.

Yeah, it's true. 

Colin Kingsmill: That idea of elders Right? Not being looked at for solutions. Mm-Hmm. to me is a symptom of this addiction to new, have new, get more, you know, that growth More, more new. More new. New, new, new, new. Bring it in. Yeah. Buy it and consume it. Yeah. 

Carol Vickers: And it happens in 

Colin Kingsmill: leadership, I think as well.

Leadership development. 

Carol Vickers: And if you [00:16:00] think of what, what would an ideal leadership table look like, I think it has that kind of combination. There's that collaborative, well, you know, we did do this 30 years ago. It's like, yeah, well, what worked about that? 

Colin Kingsmill: I have such a good example of this from, from basically yesterday in my little town here, somebody spoke up online about how she is totally misrepresented.

In town council and, and decisions and there's a noise bylaw thing going on and she's 20. 

Christal Duncan: Okay. 

Colin Kingsmill: Oh, that is beautiful thing. Yeah, the beautiful thing that happened was everybody's like, you have to run. Come on, like, be that voice. 

Christal Duncan: I 

Colin Kingsmill: think what you just said. You guys is so important. This idea of, of old and new and everything there.

Mm-Hmm. . That's so exciting. Everything 

Christal Duncan: belongs. Yeah. Yeah. Everything belongs, everything 

Colin Kingsmill: ro for [00:17:00] And you know, one of the things that we've also spoken about in the past 

Christal Duncan: Mm-Hmm. 

Colin Kingsmill: Privately, but I don't, I don't even think we have it on our website, but this idea of remember who you are Yeah. And who you will be.

Christal Duncan: Mm-Hmm. , right? 

Colin Kingsmill: Yeah. And if you begin to think of that. And imagine kind of the possibilities and and the centeredness that that can bring you. Yeah. 

Christal Duncan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Colin Kingsmill: Away from competition. 

Christal Duncan: That's good. Thank you for taking us there. So let's Let's let's take this to, to that place about remembering who we are and who we will be.

And what do we see and what do we, do we recognize is emerging in the type of leadership development programs and training both personal and collectively for, for organizations and teams that is. Not only is it working like sufficient, but like that is actually like vibrant and that is whole.

What are the elements of that? [00:18:00] 

Carol Vickers: Well, I want to just bring forward what we were, what you brought to us, Crystal, which is Métisage. For our listeners who have not heard of it, it is, it is an amazing Ability to have a conversation, to be sharing a story, to be listening to each other in a different way.

And I think that is the key piece to this element of leadership development, is the idea that everyone belongs and everything belongs. So that when there is shared stories, when there is shared experience, there is an honoring of what is being spoken. Yeah, not because it's the elder speaking or it's the president speaking, but because the person, whoever it is, whether it's the 20 year old or the 70 year old has value and we're going to get something from it.

Christal Duncan: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's actually such a great point. And perhaps we will do an episode about that in the future, walking through the process of Métisage and [00:19:00] what we have gleaned from doing it. And just a quick note, it's as a Métis woman, I learned about Métisage, but it is not an exclusionary Métis practice, but it is a fantastic way for people to understand Métis.

their story within the greater story, what they're building. And it's such a really a beautiful, powerful experience. It's 

Colin Kingsmill: just so applicable to everything. And 

Christal Duncan: the 

Colin Kingsmill: only thing I might add into the kind of the equation, and maybe we could talk about this in another podcast too, is I think what, what, when we, when you spoke about everyone and everything, I think what we do need to add more of is Adding elements of, I don't know, maybe not, not spirituality, but I'm looking at things like nutrition, looking at things like your health, looking at things like addiction, looking at like, because people come into these spaces, right?

Whether it's the office or whether [00:20:00] it's a coaching session or a leadership development thing. And I think sometimes we forget a little bit of the human side, like what are they bringing into the room? So I, I think As we, as we, as us three play around with the future of leadership development, I think it has to go beyond the room beyond that space, that container where we might focus on something.

Christal Duncan: But 

Colin Kingsmill: hey, what's going on at home? What are you getting enough sleep? Are you getting enough attrition? Nutrition, attrition you know, is, is, is there, are there things that we should look at and guide you and point you in the direction of? Okay. You know addiction sort of I don't know it doesn't matter but 

Christal Duncan: I I hear you on that and you know So it's interesting while you were saying that call and I wrote down.

What does whole mean? that is you know, and and To help people understand if you think about it whole does not mean perfect And it, right, whole means that literally what we just said earlier, everything [00:21:00] belongs. So I'm a whole human. So there, there are stories and there are elements of me that are thriving.

There are some that are a work in progress at certain times, or there are parts that are hurting or that, that are not at their full capacity, but it does not, it does not Effect or change the unchanging, unchanging, ineffable fact that I am a whole human. Yes. And everything belongs in that. So when we're talking about leadership development programs, we cannot talk about Successful programs without talking about coaching does, and I will not apologize for that ever, what the elements of learning how to coach does for your team, but it also does for you as a leader, Carol, can Share with us just a couple of thoughts that you would have around that.

Carol Vickers: Well, sure. I mean, part of what we've seen in leadership [00:22:00] development and professional development programs is that they're wonderful when they happen. And then the door closes and people go away and it gets lost. And the element of bringing coaching into that. to that arena is that it continues to propel and sustain and build traction for people who have learned lessons or learned things they want to incorporate into their life.

But as leaders, what we learn in when we examine a little bit of coaching, and you don't have to take a full year long coach training program, is how to listen. Well, how to ask questions that are important and how to be present with another human being 

Christal Duncan: right 

Carol Vickers: and those leadership skills cannot, cannot ever be discounted.

That is what will make a memorable leader. And we've had this conversation and I invite anybody who's listening to think about a leader who was the best one in your life. 

Christal Duncan: Yeah, 

Carol Vickers: weren't those qualities there. Didn't they listen? [00:23:00] Didn't they ask great questions? And weren't they there for you as a whole human yourself?

Those are the aspects. 

Colin Kingsmill: And instead of telling you what to do or think, they pushed you to think more and further and bigger and wider. That was the thing, 

Christal Duncan: right? Yeah. I think that what we're, where we're where we're landing with this is less about all the, all that. Like tactical elements that leadership development programs need to have, and they do need to have them.

But really if you are someone who is considering either taking a leadership development program, you're looking for something for your team or for your organization a couple of elements, some of the elements that we've been talking about are essential elements to create. And build and generate actually to generate a culture in your organization that is that that reflects the type of leaders that [00:24:00] you believe you're capable of being.

Carol Vickers: We call it reclaiming leadership. 

Colin Kingsmill: It's 

Carol Vickers: a 

Colin Kingsmill: very 

Carol Vickers: powerful 

Colin Kingsmill: program. 

Christal Duncan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Colin Kingsmill: Should we speak about the people that we're going to have guests on in the next couple of months? Exactly. 

Christal Duncan: Right there. The reclaiming leadership. We If you are someone who's interested in that, you can find out more with us, either reach out to us at whole human coaching.

com. We do we run those programs and through coaching and training with organizations. And we from time to time also have open Open sessions for people to join. So stay tuned because we're going to be announcing some upcoming again. Now let's talk about our 

Carol Vickers: season two. 

Christal Duncan: Yes. So we are wrapping today wraps up.

Season one C 40 is a nice, is a nice number for a lot of reasons to wrap up season one. Season two is coming and we are we're having more of the good stuff and just even more good stuff. So Colin, tell us a little bit about what's coming up in season two. [00:25:00] 

Colin Kingsmill: Well, you know, I think we were safe in season one, you know, we played it safe.

We were all super nice and coachy and as it should be, but I, we all, we all kind of realized at the end of season one that we needed to be stronger, more in our power, bring more people in, have conversations that are deeper and wider and harder and green. Because the this era requires it. So I think we're gonna have a punchier season in a good way.

I think we're gonna have, we're gonna, we're inviting guests on to look at, look at different angles of leadership as well, even around. Food or food sovereignty and what about leadership in that industry? And, and I think we're going to have some guests back like Amanda ring to discuss, you know, rewriting leadership.

So it's going to be a fun season. A lot more. We, we, we, we, what does that word when you say you, you learn, you figured things out, we learned the ropes last season. Yeah, we did. [00:26:00] We're going to take off with. With all of you. 

Christal Duncan: Yes, we're also going to be learning listening and inviting some of some of our clients on.

We're going to be doing some live sessions here. And those are really powerful learning sessions because learning just experiencing and participating in something like that can be, be incredible and incredible. Opportunity. So we might 

Colin Kingsmill: not stick to 20 minutes anymore. Got 

Carol Vickers: more to say. That's what it is.

Exactly. 

Colin Kingsmill: So grab your second coffee, I guess. Yes. 

Christal Duncan: Thank you for joining us today and we look forward to the days ahead. And don't forget if you enjoyed today's episode like it subscribe to us either and Either and on YouTube and over on any podcast listener that you use and share this episode with someone that you think could use it because you never know [00:27:00] how your little seeds of of light and love are going to change the world.

Thanks for joining us. Thank you. 

Colin Kingsmill: Have a great day.