SalesGym Interview Series
The SalesGym Interview Series brings you fresh thinking from Sales Leaders that can help you lead, manage and train a higher performing sales team. You’ll gain insights into what top performing sales professionals are doing that are giving them their competitive advantage.
SalesGym Interview Series
Breaking Barriers: Empowering Women in Sales and Leadership
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In this ideas packed podcast, Susan Sullivan shares her journey up to the Executive Leadership ranks and what she learned along the way that you can leverage to create better results. Her message can help women succeed in the modern workplace.
Workforce Changes and Women in Sales
Speaker 1Welcome to the Sales Gem podcast series , where we interview interesting and successful people in sales and sales leadership to learn what it takes to be a top performer . Today , we are joined by Susan O'Soulaven , a woman that I greatly admire , not only for her executive presence and achievements in leading large sales organizations , but also for what she is doing now and how she is really helping to support and lift up women professionally and help their voices be heard . Here is Susan .
Speaker 1Susan , I really appreciate your interest in being a part of the Sales Gem podcast . I can tell you that my experience working with you over the past number of years and the project that we were involved in together and watching how plugged in you were to that project when so many individuals of your level would not necessarily choose to be plugged in was always very inspiring to me and , I know , motivating to others . So what I thought might be a great place for us to start on this podcast is bring our audience up to speed on your professional journey . Where did you start and what led you to where you are now ?
Speaker 2It's an interesting journey because it's certainly not the path that I thought I was going to take . So when I got out of college I started working in a bank , like everybody did back then . It was just really not for me . So I wound up working for this really cool . I got into sales and I got to have this really cool job . We sold a custom print packaging . It was a field job and it was really interesting and creative . But unfortunately the company wasn't real stable so that wasn't going . So yet literally you're running to the bank to see if we could get the checks cash before the money ran out . It was like time I think I need to go find something else . So Ingram had been my customer and it was just at the point where they were merging . When Ingram and MicroD were merging and I thought , oh , I'll just go work there for a year just like kind of get my basis set again , and then I'll go do something else , because it was really go from an outside position to an inside position and I was just so over that I thought . But then the next thing they asked me if I wanted to be in management and I said no , well , it's not for me . I'm an individual contributor , I'm a private saleswoman and then , sure enough , I think I was like the saddick and person to hit manager . But it was one of those realizations where I was really enjoying working with people around me . They were asking me for help and I enjoyed helping them . So it was kind of that aha moment that I really do want to go into my management . I really do want to help people . So , fast forward .
Speaker 2I was Ingram for the majority of my career , over 30 years . I did wind up when we started working together . I ran the US sales organization and it was just one of my truly one of the best jobs that I've ever had . I enjoyed working immensely with you and with the people , because it really is about making sure that your customers are happy and making sure that your associates are really striving and achieving and learning and growing , because that is when you know you've got a great culture . That's when you know that your customer because it was always boiled down to if you hire great people , you train them and you give them great resources , they will give your customer a great experience . Once you have a great customer experience , profits always fall out , and that was sort of my mantra . That will be my mantra until the day I take my shingle down . So that was really an incredible journey . And then , since you and I work together , I have retired from Ingram and I started my own organizations called SOS , strategies , Opportunities and Solutions , and it really is .
Speaker 2For me , it is being a female executive in a very male dominated organization that organization in industry . I really had wonderful like I had really wonderful experiences at Ingram . But again , there are nuances that I know that I can help other women have their voices heard and what I'm finding , even in my practice today , it's women that are just getting to that executive level and all of a sudden , their voices you know they were this great producer or this great whatever . Now they're in a leadership role and they're struggling a little bit . Or women who've really gone through the ranks and they're at that top level and the competition is hard . You know , when you get to that top C suite it's hard and women just need a little bit extra help in making their voices heard , because it's incredibly important that we are heard and we're in those rooms and we're at those tables and our voices are , because it's incredible , it's so important for the world . I think in general , we're 50% of the population . We need to be part of the conversation .
Speaker 1Wow . Well , you know , I agree with you wholeheartedly . In fact , we are going to delve into SOS in particular and your contributions to women and what you're doing there , and we're going to do that at the end of this podcast because I feel like that is , that's the high note . I can't wait to delve into that discussion , but I know from our conversations previously , given your position at Ingram and the extent of your role there , you were in a very interesting position to watch the impact of the pandemic and some of the changes that that created . So here's the three things that I thought we might talk about today . First , just the workforce changes as a result of the pandemic . Then we're going to delve into women in the workforce and that is going to dovetail into what you're doing at SOS . So let's get started with , from your perspective , the seat at the table that you had how would you describe how the workforce changed as a result of the pandemic ?
Speaker 2It completely took it on its ear when , right before the pandemic it started , I had certain very small pilot of having people work from home just like one day a week , because I was noticing before the pandemic we're starting to lose really amazing associates to some other competitors or to some of our customers who are offering remote work . I said , susan , I have a family or I have been great people to have dinner on the table and almost little nuances , and I thought , well , let's give it a shot . And we sort of did it . And the good news I was on the other coast from where corporate was , so we could do things that are sort of flying under the radar . And so literally when the pandemic did hit and it was within five days , we had to get everybody working from home , like take whatever here and get it all into their home offices , offices , right , whatever the table or dining room or whatever they had . We were really ready to go because everybody already had a laptop , everybody had figured out how to get their connectivity working , everyone already had a camera . So it was a lot , or the most people did . There were some people who just never wanted to do it . Everybody wanted to work from home .
Speaker 2But now everyone was forced to work from home and what we noticed , especially as the pandemic started to ease a little bit , people were at being asked to come back in the office . Nobody wanted to come back in the office and I guess you could look at it two ways , and I think people did look at it two ways . One was we need to get back to normal . They need to get back . They're more productive in the office . But when you ask them , well , show me the stats that they're more productive in the office . Because , by the way , for the last two years we've made incredible , you know null and the worst , and we beat the odds on a pandemic and we were able to do it . So tell me where's the difference , tell me what's really going on .
Speaker 2And really it was just the feeling . Everybody had this feeling that if they could see them they'd be more productive , and I thought you have no idea what they're doing at their desk in the office , unless you have some really good metrics that are really following what you're doing . How do you know whether they're in the office or they're in their home office , what's getting done ? And it's interesting I actually had an event last night , a women's event and I ran into somebody who has just been forced to go back in the office two days , like back hybrid , and she was laughing . She said I was there my first day , back as yesterday , and while it was great to see everybody , I got nothing done because I was talking to everybody and I was like , oh , there's somebody standing over here , standing over there In my home . I know to the grindstone , I know this time to get it done and when the kids are going to come home and she's like I've got it all mapped out . So when I'm in the office it's almost like I have a little bit more freedom . She's like I was so much less productive in the office which I was laughing like I have to use that for tomorrow because I was talking to you about this .
Speaker 2But I do believe that if you have good metrics for what your people are doing , they should be able to do it from home , from the office . Yo , all right , I'll go after these models and Como On vacation . It doesn't matter and I think that's where we started to get away from that thought process . If the work is getting done to the standards that you expect , then doesn't matter if somebody's putting in 14 hours a day , eight hours a day or six hours a day . That's where I think , as leaders , we have to really decide or make those decisions . But it really boils down to what are the metrics you're using , whether they're in the office or at home , because now , with this hybrid work , and when I look at it from a female perspective , I do believe hybrid is probably the best from a female perspective , meaning that there's a lot of studies right now on the biases going on , and there is that bias . If you're in the office , you do have that visibility . So that is , that's real , that's alive , and so that's something that we have to make sure , as leaders , that we have to temper that a little bit .
Speaker 2The interesting thing with hybrid , though , is that we're right now on a Zoom call , and I know it's like it is actually amplifying our voices , because we don't tend to be in a boardroom , our voices are a little bit softer than men's , we're a little bit harder to hear , but on a Zoom call or a Teams call , whatever you're using your voices are louder , and , because the cameras zoom on you when you talk , you actually have a bigger presence . So what we're finding a lot of research I've been doing is that actually hybrid can be quite effective for women if you're trying to get your voice heard . Now , there are always going to be issues whether people are tucked over all the time , but I really think that in this case , if everybody is on the Zoom call or the Teams call , then everybody has a level playing field . I'm going to tell you . Unfortunately , though , if everybody else is in the office and you're on the Teams call , then you're going to have a little bit more of a problem being heard . That's just the nature of the beast . But I do think that women have to think through this a little bit about if you really want to move that career forward .
Speaker 2If you can do a hybrid , I think that's awesome , and if you can't , let's say you really are like your job is remote I mean , I see so many of them out there Then just see if you can get into the office a few times a year , just so you can see your face .
Speaker 2Now I would also say but use your time wisely and make sure that you are reaching out to people and putting 15 minutes of time on your boss's calendar or somebody else's like . Really do your networking , and it can be done so much quicker , really , on a Teams call or a Zoom call , just put 10 minutes on . How are you doing ? Here's what I'm doing , just so people know what you're working on making sure that you're getting those updates in , because truly that's where I think people that's where the whole metrics come into play Like what are you working on ? They don't know what you're working on , they don't have good metrics . Then it really , unfortunately , is incumbent upon us to just let people know what you're doing , because I'm sure that you're doing a lot more than they even know that you're doing .
Remote Work
Speaker 1Yeah , well , a couple things that I had no idea , first and foremost , because there's a lot to unpack there that I want to dive into . I had no , which is wonderful . I had no idea that you had started a remote one day a week prior to COVID hitting , Like because that trend became very popular once COVID hit , where workforces started to realize they were losing talent because of people wanting to be at home for dinner or be able to pick a child up or even volunteer to school or whatever it may be . So it's fascinating to hear that .
Speaker 1The second thing I've worked remotely for over 15 years and I've thought about the concept going back to in-person . My biggest fear is that I would get nothing done because I wouldn't be able to not talk to people right , you wouldn't want to give them the cold shoulder . So it's fascinating that you had that conversation last night . I want to delve deeper into metrics and this whole debate between we must return in-person or remote works or it needs to be hybrid . But I thought we might start with something you've mentioned , which is thinking about how productive people can be remotely working from home . Why do you think women are particularly suited to that ?
Speaker 2Oh , it's so funny . I think women are particularly suited for this because we are such great multitaskers , and whether I don't agree with this , but unfortunately this is the way the world is . The majority of the work typically falls on our shoulders , let's be honest . So we know that we can go throw a little laundry in , right ? I mean , yeah , laundry can be going on . You probably spray the shower down , you get on , you do two hours of work , you run down , you switch back to laundry . We're just really good at it and I think that it does help balance your life at home If you can keep that balance going . I mean , I've talked to so many women . That's their big piece of it . If I can get an hour where I'm not in the car , driving in the morning , what a game changer for me . I get it . That's an hour worth of work that I can get done that I wouldn't have been able to . Oh , by the way , I don't have to iron my blouse . I know that sounds stupid . Maybe not people on iron anymore , but I still iron . So I didn't have to iron a blouse . I didn't have to do those things Like . I could just literally put a sweater on and go up to my office . It's not working . Yeah , and I'm working . Done and it was , it was good .
Speaker 2Now , I do think that sometimes you have to temper it a little bit . I could tend to be a little bit of a workaholic , but it's so much easier for me , especially during the pandemic , because I never got home from the office If I wasn't traveling . I didn't get home from the office until seven o'clock at night . We were eating at eight . It was late , but now I could just go down , throw something on , go back up Like you can start dinner , you can do all those things that allowed you to really have a much nicer family evening . Then Then rushing in being late , trying to figure out what you're going to make for dinner , and then you have to change . It was just like oh , it's going to go down . Sometimes I grab the glass of wine after six , so much more relaxing .
Speaker 1Yeah , I could not agree with you more the amount of work that you can get done more productively . There's nothing worse in my book than wasted time and a commute where you can't plug into the family and it's not as easy to plug into work whether you're mentally there or not , and just being in you know that's yeah .
Speaker 2And I was actually missing my commute time when I realized it , when the beginning , because I was like down time and I would always have a book on yeah , do my audio book , I'm going to run back or I would , yeah , just some music on . But it was that time that I could decompress , yeah , so in a way I did miss it a little bit , which is kind of funny .
Speaker 1That's very interesting . So this kind of leads into the debate . Everyone has heard about the debate of we must return to normal , we must get back to normal , we must go in person , or maybe it's OK to stay 100% hybrid , or maybe the balance is remote . There tends to be , from my experience I'd be curious to get your perspective on this but from my experience there tends to be a whether it's generational , whether it's industry driven , there tends to be a subset of leaders that believe the only way to make it work is in person and I'd love to get your thoughts on the debate and what you see causes the debate and maybe what the reality is yeah , I think the debate is that people just want things to go back to the way it was .
Speaker 2They didn't like the change . They never wanted people working from home to begin with , and I truly this is my own opinion I truly think that they just didn't know what the metrics they need to be measuring were , or they couldn't anymore . Yeah , because , yes , if people are in the office on Friday , does it mean they're not working until 5 o'clock ? No , do you have a way to measure that they are ? If you're so concerned about it , what was your way to measure that they are working in the office just because they were in the office ? So to me , I think it is very generational though I see it much more from the boomer generation that we feel that we have to , and I sort of tap over the line , but I am a huge proponent that you don't have to be in the office . It's one of those .
Speaker 2I personally think that hybrid is , if you can do hybrid , I think that's the best way to go . But in all reality , we should be looking at the person Right , because it's based upon a role . Not every role can be remote , not every role should be remote , but let's look at the roles first , like which roles can be remote , which ones can really get good work done remotely and I think we've done a lot of good work in figuring that out Then I think it has to be the person . So people don't like to be remote . Some people love to be remote .
Speaker 2Let's talk about what you really want as an associate . Let's talk about what you want from your career , because if you do want to be an executive one day , then maybe you need to come into the office a couple times a week or you're remote , maybe it's a monthly . You come in , but I think this one size fits all , like everyone's in the office or everybody's remote , or everybody's hybrid . It's really , I think , when we start talking about diversity , equity and inclusion , right and making sure we're feeling along .
Speaker 2let us talk about where they really want to do what they want to do , how they want to do it , because if that is where I think you're going to get your most engaged employee and which are they at ? Engaged employee you've got gold there because they're going to stay , they're going to treat your customers and there are other associates like gold and you will make the most winning culture .
Speaker 1Yeah , I love
Measuring Productivity in Remote Work
Speaker 1that . The message is be flexible and learn to meet people and roles where they are , and I think some of the best advice I ever got from my father was so simple and it comes back to me professionally all the time . And he said , Emily , he said in most cases , too much of anything is a bad thing and it's kind of you know , I love this . It applies to so much right , Like not being flexible , not being able to meet people , and this is something I learned from you in our prior conversation which I think is fascinating . In fact , I haven't really spoken to anybody that's delved into the metrics of the debate between in-person and remote as much as you have , and you mentioned earlier that a lot of individuals almost just had a feeling that people needed to be in-person , but you've really looked at the numbers . So talk to our audience a little bit about what metrics should we be looking at and how can they empower an organization to embrace a hybrid or remote workforce ?
Speaker 2Well , again , I think it goes back to the role . So for me it was a little bit easier because we had a sales organization . We had an inside sales organization , we had an external sales organization . So for me it was let's talk about the calls you're making . It was a lot of where your company came in , it was in , came into play . But let's not just talk about the number of calls , let's talk about the quality of the call .
Speaker 2We did a lot of call monitoring , we did a lot of call recording , because that is the only way we're really going to be able to measure what your good calls really are . You could have 1,000 calls and does that make you productive ? If they're all horrible , no Two maybe calls . If they're phenomenal , they go . That could be worth the weight of 1,000 phone calls . So I think that what we had really , what I find is that look at the role , look at what you're trying to accomplish and figure out what you can measure . So is it the quality of the call , the number of calls ? We put a lot of it into the reporting perspective too . So , basically , how many calls ? What are you getting out of it ? And then we could literally build it back down into could you really have to get a close rate ? If you're in sales , what do you try to close rate ? So a lot of this is just you do your backwards math but you make sure you get the stats then to say are you being any more productive in the office or are you not being productive in the office ? So for me that is from a work perspective , from a sales perspective . But then you've got a lot of the support work and so what your numbers for your support work , like , what have you actually done time studies ? Do you actually know how much time it takes to do this task and how many tasks can you do now ? Or I mean again they stick math back it in .
Speaker 2I just said going to be highs and lows . Understand that there is going to be . I never want to get into that boiler room kind of like you have to make this on your things . But also no , I mean you also know that they're in a day you need to be doing this many things . It's pretty basic .
Speaker 2I can tell you that there are a lot of people who are in offices who aren't doing their basics . They're home . Maybe they're doubling the numbers because they're just they're in the zone Like you can talk about . You're in the zone and you can work and no one's there , there's no distractions . So that's where I think you have to look at the role , look at what is success in that role and then measure it . Yes , I've always said you smart goals . Right , you got to be able to measure it . So what are your goals ? What are you going to measure ? And then build it in ? Because whether you're doing it remotely or whether you're doing it in the office , you should be able to measure it . And if you can't , then I would say you probably don't know what . You're really preproductive . You really are .
Speaker 1You know , I have to say , for anyone listening out of the many different companies I have had the pleasure of working with , ingram Micro should truly be a case study . And how to do it well , you all executed exceptionally well , not just from a complete culture shift , a shift towards practice and really embracing skill development and better sales approaches . You all figured out how to measure it , how to measure it accurately , appropriately , in a way that was easily understood , and because of my experience I can certainly extrapolate what that might've looked like . But for our audience , could you give me an example of how you knew someone was capable of being productive from home to the level that you needed them to be productive ? What did that look like ?
Speaker 2Oh , it was . So we yeah , a lot of it was based on the tools that we had . So you know , we have taken a tool that we did with Outlook , which isn't only meant for this , but we were able to measure it through Outlook because we made mailboxes and if the mailboxes , again , that's where all the customer information came in , so you could literally the managers had the ability to go in and understand who was working in the mailboxes , how many things are coming in , how many things are going out , who , based on each person and like , wait , you're not anywhere close to this person . Same thing with the phone calls right , we were able to measure the outpounds where your total top time was . We've been measuring that . So that was on the phone and that's why we've been measuring that , and we never wanted to get caught up , though that you had to hit this many calls , because you know everyone can then bastardize those calls . We really wanted it to be true , truly calls . That mattered , and that's why the call recording came into play and literally , you as an associate could say , hey , this was a really good call , and push it to your manager to say , please listen to this call .
Speaker 2This was a really good call and I think I hit , especially when we were doing the sales gym stuff . This is where I hit all my metrics , this is where I hit everything that I wanted to say on this call and that was the . I think the real game changer was being able to then take those mailboxes , know the number of the amount of work that was coming in and then put the phone calls on top of it and I think and then , plus , we also had third party not shouldn't say third party , they were anger micro associates , but out of country doing those same things , and their metrics were just as tight . Right , they knew , they think . So we learned a lot when we had created those positions in those offices . We had learned a lot about how to measure this , and then we were able to really break it back into the US and to the other offices to say this is literally the best practices that we can show .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's excellent . The culture of celebrating success and bubbling success up the chain again is another incredible success story that was such a joy to be a part of with you and anger micro . So let's shift gears
Empowering Women in the Workforce
Speaker 1a bit . And I know something near and dear to your heart , and mine as well , is women in the workforce , and I'm curious to get your perspective just from a high level . What do you think the value of empowering more women professionally is Like ? Why should we do that ?
Speaker 2Oh , Emily , there are so many . There are so many reasons . First and foremost , you know , when you get a diverse group of people in a room at any given time , you're always going to have better decision making right . So you need to make sure that you're empowering women in particular because that's what we're talking about right now , but just generally people but to feel comfortable that they can come and say what's on their mind , because they , you know , women . It's interesting , I think , that we know we're very we're different than men , but let's just be very different than men . We think differently , we operate differently and we need to make sure that those traits that we have are being celebrated . And we also need to make sure that people are accepting it .
Speaker 2Because when I first started out in the workforce a thousand years ago , my goal was to be like a man . We dressed like men . Right , I remember having the suit with the bow ties . It was . They were like literally the Brooks Brothers shirts , but they just cut them a little bit different for women . Like it was what you had to do . You had to wear a suit . We didn't . We weren't even allowed to wear pants at the time . So it was like you you had to be a man , like almost dressed like a man , and it really like you wanted to start . They wanted us to think the same way and they lost out right Like no , we need to be thinking more like women , and I think a lot of the women that really succeeded were able to bring their own personalities in and do things a little bit differently .
Speaker 2Women , you're always want diversity on your team . You want diverse thought . You want diversity in age and gender . You want diversity in race . You want the full diversity . But from a women's perspective , we know that 50% of the population is women . That's just no right . Yeah , why don't we want their perspective ? Yeah , we are the consumers . Right , we buy . Our power to buy is incredible , so why wouldn't you want us in those rooms where we're actually helping to make those decisions on the marketing of that brand ? We're the ones that are going to go buy it . What I find absolutely fascinating and terrifying at the same time .
Speaker 2We think about all the drugs that are out there . Right , they purposely exclude women from the drugs because of our hormones , and they say they don't want it messing with the trials . Well , guess what ? 50% of the women are going to be in those trials or are going to be taking the drug later on . And , by the way , we need to be measuring those demographically , because a young woman versus a pregnant woman , versus a very mental positive versus a mental positive women , our hormones are going to make complete differences in those drugs . So you better test it on all of those drugs Again . Get a woman at the table . She can start making those hopefully very persuasive arguments to say no , we have to be there .
Speaker 2And I think , from another perspective , it's just why wouldn't you want all of the best ideas to come into your company ? Because the studies show , when you have diverse leadership teams right , 19% higher revenue , You're like 65% easier , better at making decisions . Right , You're 45% more likely to outshine your competition . That isn't that way . I mean , the numbers are staggering when you start looking at what a diverse leadership team will do . So from just the sheer economics of it from a company , why wouldn't you want a woman there just to help make those decisions ?
Speaker 2And I think the other piece to this is we bring a little softer approach to it and I think women overall are seen as a little bit more approachable , and so I think we get the true we sometimes get the true understanding of what's going on , versus being like people tell certain people what they want to hear .
Speaker 2I think women have this innate ability to get out what's really going on , and I think we're just we're much more empathetic leaders and I think that we're also sometimes a little bit more willing to do the hard stuff you know , walk the walk a little bit more , because we know how hard it has been to walk up the hill .
Speaker 2And I think what I've been noticing , which I'm absolutely thrilled about , is I've seen more and more women reaching their hand down and helping other women up . It's , I think , back when I was first starting out , there were so few seats at the table that if a woman had it , she just felt like she had to hold on to it . Yeah , because I only place that's got . Another woman is going to take my seat . The only way it's going to happen is another one's going to take my seat . But now I think people are understanding that they're able to do it . I thought I was right , Doug Well , if I were able to to say you know there's going to be , let's make more room at the seat , let's make more seat at the table versus there's only that one , and we got up guard carefully .
Speaker 1That's I am when , when I was in college , I remember working in an engineering firm and desperately reaching out to other women and there was a sense of competitiveness . And it wasn't just that we were competing against men , we were competing against ourselves for that exact same reason . So you talk about the isolation and this kind of leads into my next , next question . You talk a lot about empowering women to have their voices heard , and I'm curious first to get your perspective on why it's difficult for a woman's voice to be heard .
Speaker 2Oh , that is such a great question . So in some cases we do it to ourselves , and you know , I know that I was a , you know I was guilty of doing this it's the way we phrase our answers . It's the way we phrase . We always hand that , and a lot of it's how we're brought up . Well , does that make sense ? Like we always sort of take whatever we're saying and we downplay it a little bit . Yeah , it's just . It's just that we are .
Breaking Gender Bias in Leadership Roles
Speaker 2Inflection works on our voice , the way we've been sort of trained , really , it's , it's , it's the craziest thing . But in some cases we do it to ourselves , and we do it subconsciously too . So I'm like we're like doing this on purpose , but we're always that she , I'm just not , you know , we're not always a hundred percent sure . So it doesn't , the confidence doesn't come across in our inner . Sometimes we speak , I think in other cases we do have the issues of our voices just aren't as loud , and so sometimes we just do , we just don't amplify , and if you're at a very competitive meeting , sometimes it is a little bit difficult to him , or our voices , her , I think . The other thing that happens , though , is sometimes are it doesn't happen a lot , but it does happen .
Speaker 2Our ideas are then all of a sudden said again by somebody else and they're like that's a great idea , that I was just talking , I'm on a board and a woman just said that just happened . During like my whole career I haven't that happened , but now that I'm in this leadership position I'm hearing women . I just said that , and so I think it's incumbent on all the women and men , if you see that say something like no , no , no , oh that you know what isn't that great that Lisa said that already . I was , so I read with her when she said I'm so glad you reiterated you don't have to be like a slap and make and feel dumb about it , Just throw it into the conversation that , yes , that's exactly what Lisa had said as well .
Speaker 2I'm so glad you're on board with what she's saying . It's just how you can frame it a little bit differently and I think people at the end of the day , unfortunately , it's just we are programed really to think of leaders as men and not women , and so we just we have to break down that barrier and I think the more again you got to see it to believe it . So more women that are in those seats , the more people will see it . The more they see it , the more they believe it . And then , all of a sudden , your paradigm really does shift . And a male or a female , we can all be great leaders , it doesn't matter .
Speaker 1Yeah , I so agree with that . So , when you think about a woman's voice being heard , and maybe what prevents a woman's voice from being heard , what should we all be doing to help more women's voices ?
Speaker 2be heard . So that is a great question and I love that Cause I think there's a lot of different ways that they can happen . I think from an a corporation perspective , I think there has to be mentorship programs , and for me , I think the easiest way to implement a mentorship program is you got to put money behind it right . Put it in everybody's goals , your league goals , from the CEO right on down . Every man , anybody with a manager title , should have a goal to mentor two people a year and , by the way , they should be reverse sex or at least one of them each right Cause otherwise it's never gonna cause . Then you're gonna have all the men mentoring of the people that live just like them , and that would say women too , sometimes we tend to like . Now I think it's important that we branch out and we make sure that we're mentoring people that look different than we look . We're not there from a complete diversity perspective , but once you get that in people's KPI is for their yearly bonuses or their goals , whether that their promotions or their raises are gonna be based on , it's amazing how quickly a mentorship program will happen , right , it's just it quickly it's there . So mentorship , absolutely . The second thing is making sure the development programs are there and , I would say , leaning a little bit heavier . I know this is not always a thought people like , but I think you have to lean it heavier to women and to diversity when you're looking at those leadership programs . Because , again , if you look at leadership programs , they tend to all look alike . So that's really over index . I would say , if we really want to get women into those roles , we have to over index on that development and because , again , I think development is the biggest issue that we have because we , again , we have to see it , we have to believe it , we have to hear it and I think women do need a little bit more coaching .
Speaker 2I've always hit small women's groups . When I was at Ingram , I had the women that were the top , the literally the go-getters , like the 12 women that said I'm going to be the next director . And when we did our vision boards and they all said what they wanted to be , it was all couched with well , I'm not ready yet . And when the time comes like I know I've got a lot more work to do , I lost my mind . I'm like stop saying that you are ready right now . What makes you any less ready than that person over here Nothing except your head . So I think those development programs are really important for women to push thought of their comfort zone . We want to check every box to say we're ready for those promotions . We can't be , we shouldn't , because if we're checking all those boxes , we should have been there in that role a long time ago . So it's changing that mindset for women to say do it now . Yes , it's terrifying , go do it . It's that push that they need .
Speaker 1Gosh I've heard this from a number of thought leaders that when you look at promotions , in particular in men , men are much more likely to go for a promotion , even when they know they don't check all the boxes , versus women tend to think they can't until they check all the boxes and that's . It's such a refreshing perspective that the reality is , if you could check them all , you would have already been doing it , or you should have already been doing it . Where's the growth ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I always heard that study , but I'm literally slapped me in the face with watching what happened Said that they think I was blown away and I said what have we done for the past year ? Have they not gotten through that ? And you , you we're laughing , we're laughing , you're laughing . But it really wasn't a good , good mind shift change for them and they were like you're right , and it's just , it's even how we say things , like we talk about why women's and Royce's aren't heard . It's how we say I'm not quite ready yet , like , just , it's absolutely incredible that the worth that needs to be in just getting our confidence out there to say that we can do it .
Speaker 1You know , I want to give you a perspective on something . I was speaking with another leader of a fairly large size corporation and she made the comment to me that their top performers consistent top performers year after year those that won the awards , the majority of them were actually women . I'd be curious to get your experience from your lens in the seat that you had . What did your top performer mix ups look like ?
Speaker 2You know I would honestly say it was 50-50 . Uh-huh , yeah , oh I mean I would say , but you know here's a . It's also very interesting Cause again , if you look at some of the research out there women there is a bias that women have to over perform to get higher performance reviews . So I will say that , which is always frustrating , that their bias is there , but I would say in all honesty , from my perspective it was very much 50-50 . What I would say , though , from a manager perspective , I always found , like individual contributors , it was across the board From a manager perspective , and that frontline manager to me , I think , was the hardest role , because you're really trying to balance so much . I did find my top performers were tend to be women . How it matters . Thanks .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , that's fascinating .
Promote Women in Leadership and Boards
Speaker 1Well , let's shift for a minute into what you're doing now . I'm so excited for you to talk a little bit more about this . And , before we get into it , I love the name , and is it a play on your name ? Sos , susan O'Sullivan . But also strategies , opportunities and solutions , yeah , and also help .
Speaker 2Because my business card , my needs to oh , SOS , yes .
Speaker 2Yeah , so help , let's you put the dot dot , dash , dash , dash , dash . I love that Because I'm here to help . I mean , that's the focal point . I think my mission here is really to help women and to help everybody . Don't get me wrong , but I am a woman . I know what I've gone through , and I had .
Speaker 2Frankly , I had a really great career . I just had an amazing career , but , again , I was still that woman that was in a room of 40 people being the only female at the table , so there's a lot of pressure on women . So , for me , it really is about it's a few things . So it's a consulting and more really executive coaching for women , and it's really , again , to get their voices heard , and I'm open to coaching just about anybody . But , again , I feel that's my strength , I really need to lean into it and , again , my passion for making sure that women get where they want to go . The other piece , though , is I really am looking for board work , and the more I looked into it , it's really fascinating from a numbers perspective . I thought this was the aha moment for me when I was doing some research , and that's the beautiful thing about this role now , too , is that I get to do a lot of research . I can read I'm just like , because I get lost in a little bit of these rabbit holes , but they're really interesting . So , when you talk about making sure that women are at the table , I think women need to be at the board table as well , and there's so many different reasons that we really need to create that diversity from the ground floor all the way to the top . But I think we need to almost focus on the top more .
Speaker 2And if you're looking at just from a , let's just go surely economic first of all , right , there's two really big studies out there one from Credit Suisse , and they literally surveyed over 2,400 global companies and they had to find they had to have at least one woman on their board right , and they found that they had one woman on their board . They delivered a better share price like $0.26 , than those with no women on their boards at all , and that was , I think , a 2021 study . The other study that I found was Catalyst , and they studied Fortune 500 companies and that had to have representation of three or more women on their boards and what they found versus no women right , that they significantly outperformed those with no representation and the results were $0.84 on return sales by 60% on return on invested capital and $0.46 on return on equity . I mean that to me . So if you're wondering , like from a business perspective , why wouldn't you have a woman on your boards ? That just makes absolutely no sense .
Speaker 2Then you also and we talked a little bit about decision making I think that when you have greater gender diversity , we're just going to make better decision because you're bringing in all the different experiences , all the different thoughts , your representation of both genders at the table , and I think it leads us to just a better understanding or maybe even examination of the issues .
Speaker 2And I think it also when you get everyone looking alike , they tend to think alike , and so if you get different perspectives , you can really get away from that group of things which I think can absolutely be deadly in a setting . And then we talked a little bit about that too is , I think , that we just are a little bit more approachable and I think that that really enhances just that feeling that people , they know what's going on . Right . You approve relationships to your employee , approve your relationships to your customers , and I also think that the broader community that you're working in serving just gets a better general feel and trust when they see that there is a diverse population on your board . So to me that's something that I'm working with from women . How can we get more women onto boards , how do we get more women's voices heard ? And I think it all plays into . If we can get that done , I think companies will be stronger , make better decisions . It just really can be in a really healthy way .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's incredible . So you mentioned that prior to COVID , you had noticed this trend where you were losing top talent , I imagine , many of which were women who wanted to actually have dinner with their families , and you and I have talked in the past about . I mean , we know from data and research that having more women involved , more voices heard , more of their perspective heard at a senior top level , that better outcomes are sure to play into it . What can we do to get more women there ? And , in particular , women have a challenge that men don't , and that is during the childbearing years . We have babies and many women exit the workforce . So I'm curious to get your thoughts on , you know , as you become part of more boards , as you do more executive coaching . What do you believe are some of the programs and policies that companies could adopt to keep more women in the workforce .
Speaker 2I think you are spot on and we talked about this . So I have incredibly younger women in my life . They mentor me , I mentor them , and there are two in particular . One was a friend of my niece's their best friends actually and she came to work at Engram for me and then we lost her as she won and we should have like . She went on to a phenomenal career , but then , you know , when she started having children , she's working for a great company right now . But I had to talk to her because I had an opportunity I thought she might be interested in and she said I will not leave this company because of the incredible maternity leave that I have from this company . She I mean it was incredible and she said I know that I will be here for the next four years because I know I want to have a more baby and I will stay here . And they really do believe that this is the right . And she's like it's not that they just don't have a policy , but they believe it . Yeah , they live by it and nobody's bothered . Now her best friend , my niece , just went back to work today and after having and she had to cut it short there's no policy , it's just the difference like she's looking and I get all the women that I have lost due to this right they're either , they couldn't get good childcare .
Speaker 2So I think anything that the government , the companies , whatever the world , can do to help women get good child , good , affordable child care , is going to solve a lot of the world's problems , frankly . And I think that if companies really look at the things that you can do for working women , whether it's hybrid , whether it's work remote , you know , and again we talk about , let's make sure that it's fitting the way you're working , fits the role and the personality . Work through that . Let's make sure that we have the easy things like do we have mothers or was ? I know in some states they're not mandated , but I know we're in New York they're mandated . But let's make sure that we're making it easier for women to do the right things for their children Because , again , healthier children , healthier your moms , easier , like you know , you can take it all back to an economic thought process , really , because if you have healthy children , they're not going to be sick as much Moms are going to , because you know , moms are the ones that tend to stay home .
Speaker 2I was actually , my husband was a stay at home dad . So we had the reverse . So I didn't , but I still took off a lot because as a mom you know , it's just that feeling that you just need to be there . So I think if we can just help babies and their outcomes and children and their outcomes , moms are much more comfortable . Dads and I think is the world is changing the dance are getting just as involved . I mean , I think there's some really amazing companies with great medical benefits for dads as well , but at the end of the day , you know , the moms take with them a very nine traumatic months . Then they be time to rest . Yeah , they need their partner there . Yes , and they need their partner there , they need their baby there . So the more that we can do , I think , from that perspective , I think the better the whole world will be in general . And then I think again , just even looking at the development programs , the leadership programs , the mentor programs and the simple things .
Speaker 2Emily , I think you and I talked about this earlier If you're on a call and you see that somebody is being talked over , if you see somebody's idea that's being taken , it's okay to see something right . Say something in the middle of the meeting , say , hey , just so you know , I think that was a great idea . Emily , thank you so much for saying that . I know you , todd , you thought so too , but I you know , thanks for bringing that up the first time .
Speaker 2Little things like that
Promoting Collaboration and Support in Leadership
Speaker 2. Or if you do see somebody that's not not participating in a meeting because they just they may be a different processor , reach out and find out though , like don't assume , right . So , hey , guess what , emily , I noticed you really didn't see anything in the meeting , did you not have any ideas ? And you always say , oh , susan , I had all these ideas , but I need a time to process it . Thank you , and this is what I need you to do Put everything in an equipping note , send it to me and I'll share it with everybody .
Speaker 2Or maybe you need to share it with everybody , like here's my thoughts from the meeting . Send them off those little ways , because , again , everybody does process a little bit differently and in meetings sometimes it is overwhelming If you get pulled to the table and you're not used to it . You know , either ask somebody , hey , what do you think ? And or call them back next time and say , hey , I'm going to call on you in the next meeting . Are you okay with that ? Like those little things as a leader , that is what truly sets people apart , I think .
Speaker 1Yeah , the proactive support of one another and for one another . Let's ditch the competitive environment where it's every woman for herself and lean into helping us all do better and get there more effectively and I love your thoughts on better maternity programs and policies and keep women in the workforce , help them excel , get to the leadership table and , all in all , everyone wins . So , susan , I feel like we've scrapped the tip of the iceberg on your wealth and knowledge and experience , and maybe this is part one of many to come , but I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to share your insights and your experience and , for our listeners , I'll be sure to include Susan's information and how to contact her if you are looking for executive coaching . So , susan , thank you so much for being here and being a part of this podcast .
Speaker 2Emily thank you so much . I was absolutely honored . I had a great time , wonderful .