Ops Game Changers
An original ActiveOps podcast focused on all things Operations.
We know it's not easy running operations. Pressures on cost, risk, customer and employee experience are a constant struggle as operational leaders try to do more with less. In this podcast series, we bring together true Ops Game Changers, who share real-life stories of how they delivered against business drivers – and delivered big!
Ops Game Changers
S01E03: Driving Employee Engagement to Improve Staff and Customer Satisfaction
Want to learn more about how to radically transform your company through the power of operations? Then don't miss the following episodes and hear more fascinating insights from other leaders in the field of Operations about how they have overcome challenges to drive productivity and boost performance at their enterprises. You can listen and subscribe to ‘Ops Game Changers’ on your preferred podcast platform and also on our YouTube channel, AOTv.
Discover more about ActiveOps.
Ops Game Changers Podcast
S01E03 – Nedbank RBB
Bhavesh Vaghela: Hello and welcome to Ops Game Changers, the podcast series that shines a light on the critical role that operations play on delivering business impact and results. That's things like driving customer experience, reducing costs, and improving efficiencies. My name is Bhavesh Vaghela. I'm the Chief Marketing Officer at ActiveOps. In each episode, we'll be focusing on a key KPI, a key business issue or driver, and then we'll be talking to experts, game changers, ops game changers, who will talk through how they've gone about solving those problems. In today's episode, we're very privileged to be in Johannesburg today talking to one of the key executives at Nedbank. So we're here with Nozi Tshabuse, who's the managing executive on the retail banking side. Now with Nedbank, they've been through a pretty transformative journey over the last 12 to 18 months under the guise of Project Phoenix. And in this particular episode, we're gonna focus on the role that has played in driving employee efficiencies, employee productivity, and really employee wellbeing. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to Nozi and we can start to delve into this topic. Nozi, welcome to the Ops Game Changers podcast.
Nozizwe Tshabuse: Thank you, Bhavesh.
Bhavesh: So before we start, perhaps you could just tell us a little bit about yourself and really particularly how you ended up where you are today. How did you end up in having this ops role?
Nozizwe: Depends how much time you have. Yeah, so Nozizwe Tshabuse, managing executive of retail and business banking ops. I have been in Nedbank for, I think for about 18 years, prior to that five years with another bank. And I've really been blessed by visionary manner in a way that throughout all these 18 years, I've never really been in the same position for more than three years.
Bhavesh: Okay.
Nozizwe: I think that explains why I ended up in ops. So I have been exposed to different parts of the bank. I have dealt with your entry-level clients. I have been in the trenches. We always say under the gazebo, the guys that know what I'm talking about, they'll know what I'm referring to. I've also had the privilege of dealing with high-net-worth customers. I've had the opportunity of managing provinces that made up of both the retail, as well as the small business, and the large commercial segments. All throughout working with people, I've also had the opportunity of managing a small little business, I used to love called Non-resident and Embassy Banking.
Bhavesh: Okay.
Nozizwe: Where we looked after all the South Africans that are temporarily abroad, that have not formally immigrated, ambassadors that are in the country that want access to banking. I've done a lot of back-office roles as well, support roles, whether it's on reporting, strategy, I've really done a lot within this organization.
Bhavesh: Yeah, you obviously know the bank really, really well.
Nozizwe: I think I have a good idea what happens in a lot of areas, but over the past five years, I think there was probably much more defining in terms of really, really ending up in an ops role, after spending a lot of years in sales in different parts, as I've mentioned, I was given an opportunity to head up risk compliance and ops for what we call Nedbank Integrated Channels, which is pretty much all our points of presence, branch, call center, ATMs, et cetera. I did that for about two years, two, three years, a third year the business then restructured under the umbrella of Phoenix.
Bhavesh: Okay.
Nozizwe: And I was then given an opportunity to head up client operations for the entire cluster.
Bhavesh: Fantastic.
Nozizwe: When I moved into risk and compliance, it was quite a weird thing. 'Cause I thought, I think I'll be bored.
Bhavesh: Okay.
Nozizwe: I've been selling for all these years, I've been managing salespeople and now I get an opportunity to go and do risk and compliance. Like, what's that? What do they do?
Bhavesh: Exactly.
Nozizwe: How do they have fun? But seamless to say, it's one of the best career decisions I've actually made. And I think it definitely did set me up for heading up client operations today for retail and business banking.
- So you talked about Project Phoenix, you talked about Phoenix as a transformational thing that was going on with the bank. So perhaps you could tell us a little bit about what Phoenix is and how that impacts operations.
Nozizwe: So Phoenix is actually a structural reorganization program that we embarked on because for many, many years as a bank we were very much product-centric instead of being client-centric. So to give you an example, if you are a customer and you wanted to apply for a vehicle, and a credit card, and let's say you also want to buy a home for you and your family, you actually ended up dealing with three different people.
Bhavesh: Oh no.
Nozizwe: Yeah, from the same bank. And those three people rely on three different systems, back office support, credit support. So we realized if we are going to win in this market, if we are going to be competitive and be relevant to our customers, it was important that we start forming a client-centered organization. We created various centers of excellence across the cluster. So all the sales bankers, whether they were in the vehicle, product house, or card, or home loans, we group them together. So actually, that becomes your front line. And then we looked at the various middle and back offices across the different products, across the different segments. We pulled all those together to create the center of excellence of client operations.
Bhavesh: So when you're going through that big transformation exercise though, did you have some specific, I think you called them, must-win battles, the specific initiatives or KPIs, or this case, these must-win battles. What were these must-win battles?
Nozizwe: Yeah, so for me, obviously, pulling together different groupings that come from different product houses segments, we had to, firstly, acknowledge the fact that we are going to come with different ways of doing things. We are going to come with different visions. So it was important that we first understand what is our strategy or what is our vision as retail and business banking, client operations. And we defined our reason for being, as we believe that we are there to help the bank at large, RBB at large to reach its efficiency, growth, and productivity targets. All underpinned by great customer experience, and operational excellence. And once we've defined that strategy or that vision, we then had to look at what are the three or four key things that are going to enable that vision, make it come to life. And that's how we came up with our four must-win battles or four battlegrounds. The first one we said, we want to be competitive when it comes to service-level agreements. We want to be the quickest bank to deliver that product to the customer, especially after they get approval. We don't want our customers to wait too long wondering, will I get my card today or will I get it tomorrow? We believe that you can truly use your turnaround times as a competitive differentiator in the market.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: The second must-win battle was client-centered processes. We said we've all been in this bank for long and a lot of us have often complained about processes that have never been reviewed. This was a fantastic opportunity to just go back to the drawing board and say, before we digitize anything, can we just make sure the process is efficient? So we took it upon ourselves to really look at all our processes in the middle and back office. We started reviewing some were not drafted. We draft those and engage with the different stakeholders and say, are you comfortable, does this talk to your client? If you're a consumer head or if you're juristic, if you look after the juristic segment, does this actually make sense in terms of what you want to deliver to your customers as part of your CVP? And that's why we thought client-centered processes is definitely a key enabler for us if we are going to win in operations. The third one was how do we activate technology and ensure that we have a technology that empowers our staff members to be able to do their job, to make decisions on the ground. And that's why we embarked on different programs, looking at how do you efficiently manage cases from one person to the next. So we started embarking on things that look at your case management workflows and also how do we leverage off the bigger programs that the bank was launching, which was Managed Evolution, which talks to seamless onboarding, seamless servicing, irrespective of which channel that you actually come through. The fourth must-win battle for us was around people.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: We realize that if you are going to win in this particular environment, you have to take your people along with you on the journey. You have to get their buy-in. You cannot force people to produce results.
Bhavesh: Of course.
Nozizwe: You must find a way of co-creating what you want to do with them.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: So given that we inherited four different products that were coming in, team members that had supported those product houses, it was important we start defining our own culture.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: But all supporting the Nedbank culture, the Nedbank vision. If we are saying that we are financial experts, we do good, what does that look like in operations? So I may not necessarily be sitting in front of Bhavesh selling that account.
Bhavesh: Yes.
Nozizwe: But as soon as he says, actually, I want this account, I want this credit card, it comes into our world. We're still financial experts. How do we ensure we process that account as quickly as possible, making sure that we deliver great customer experience. So those were the key, I think the four key battlegrounds that we identified as key enablers if we're going to achieve our strategic objectives.
Bhavesh: Yeah. And I think we've all been consumers where we're trying to get a service from a bank or service provider and we get pushed from one person to the other.
Nozizwe: Correct.
Bhavesh: So I think what you've described there, I think it resonates with everybody. All consumers all over the world can sometimes tear their hair out when they're having to experience these situations. But from an operations point of view, I mean, I'm particularly interested in, for this particular episode, we're gonna focus particularly on the employee experience, right. And you've got 1400 employees, they all come from different groups.
Nozizwe: Yes.
Bhavesh: All probably do things in slightly different ways.
Nozizwe: Yes.
Bhavesh: I mean, that is one of the biggest challenges for any transformation as you've already outlined, is bringing your people with you. So how'd you even go about doing that? How do you bring everybody aligned? So what are the sort of things that you've done that you can point to that have made a difference for you?
Nozizwe: Yeah. So firstly, I think, Bhavesh, that good starting point was to acknowledge that, well, we are in a chaotic environment.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: It is highly volatile. We have been given a mandate where we said we want to be client-centric, but we had to actually just pause and acknowledge the fact that that change was real. So as a leader, you have to first and foremost, engage with your people so that they are aware that you are aware of the transition that they are going through. Change is the most constant thing as we often say, but we all deal with it differently. So we had to first acknowledge that and this is the language I use with them, that we have been given a vacant piece of land. There's absolutely nothing that is on this land. We have the opportunity to start designing and building our own house. We will define whether we want a two-bedroom house. We want a mansion, we are going to define, we've got the tools, but let's first acknowledge that we are going to start afresh. So through this journey we are going to unlearn a lot of habits that we've deemed as great business practice, we are going to adopt the new as per what we agreed to as a collective. So first and foremost, acknowledging the change. And then we started spending a lot of time explaining the why we got here. Because you do not embrace Phoenix because Nozizwe says so, we have to show them guys, even you yourself in your own personal capacity, you've had to deal with multiple individuals in the bank just so that you can get an ASA on your vehicle finance.
Bhavesh: Of course.
Nozizwe: So if we wanted to improve that experience, it's important that we really change the way we do things. Some of the guys felt whatever it is that they did in their environment, it worked and it worked well. When you say, yeah, but what's the point of being a five rater in a one-rated team? Right? 'Cause ultimately it's one Nedbank, it's one share price.
Bhavesh: Yes.
Nozizwe: So we had to spend a lot of time explaining the why before we get into the what. 'Cause I do believe that when you're embarking on such large-scale change, if we do not really unpack the reason for doing what you're doing, you actually end up losing people along the way.
Bhavesh: Yes, I can imagine.
Nozizwe: So some of them just agree, but it's actually passive resistance because they end up not actually following through with the changes that you want to implement. After spending a lot of time on the why we are doing this, and really, I think we started getting a lot of their buy-ins, we then started defining what the what would look like. And we said let's imagine the ops of the future.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: What does that look like? People have often defined it as if people that push a lot of paper in the back office.
Bhavesh: Of course.
Nozizwe: How do we take this to the next level? How do we ensure that somebody sitting in another department somewhere, how do we make sure that they get attracted to what we do in our world? How do we make sure that we start showing value to the goal, to the EXCO at large? Everybody must start seeing value, not because we feel we are important, but the results must speak for themselves.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: So when we started defining the what, that's how we came up with the must-win battles.
Bhavesh: Got it.
Nozizwe: And we said, whether you are in vehicle finance, and home loans, and card, ultimately there's a process that you need to follow. Can we all challenge ourselves around making sure that the process is efficient? And not only that, start benchmarking yourself. So if our service-level agreement has always been, oh no, two days and I always laugh because when I started introducing the must-win battles, some of the challenging questions I had was, oh no, so now you want process applications because it's still within SLA and I said, no, definitely not, for me, if anything, I want to reduce those SLAs or turnaround times as much as possible. Still managing your risk and your quality, obviously. And as we started really showing people how practically you can make a difference in your world, we started getting a lot of that buy-in. So in my mind, acknowledge where you are, start acknowledging the ripple effects of change that you're gonna have different reactions and be ready for that. And then start saying, why are we embarking on this change? What's in it for the staff members? I spend a lot of time on that because when you start saying what's in it for me, it changes the conversation altogether. We started painting a picture of our staff members that says, look, you've always been in home loans forever and a day, you now have an opportunity to actually work across products.
Bhavesh: Yes, of course.
Nozizwe: This means different career options actually that will be presented to us. And by doing that, we're able to start drafting the future.
Bhavesh: Wow. And I guess with any transformation of staff, some people buy in very quickly.
Nozizwe: Yes.
Bhavesh: And some people are very cynical.
Nozizwe: Yes.
Bhavesh: And then some people eventually, the light bulb comes on and the new world and the new house that they're building.
Nozizwe: Yeah, yeah.
Bhavesh: Did you, thinking back on the journey you've had so far, were there any particular tactics that you could share that you think, actually, if I'm sitting in Ops and if you were talking to another operations person and said, well, here's my advice, was there particular tactics that you used that you felt that actually moved the needle in that transformation?
Nozizwe: So I think, I don't even think it's a tactic, I just think it's a hygiene factor, it is just communicate.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: Be very transparent with your team members that this is where we are. Colleagues, we are faced with this huge mountain, whether we like it or not, if we don't tackle it, we actually end up being out of the game completely.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: And the more you communicate, the more you are transparent and create an environment where people can also ask questions and even come up with ideas. By doing that, just driving those conversations intentionally, we were able to, I think, even convince some of the people that thought this will never work, we ended up convincing them. But not only that, also identifying your influences. That one person that often resist and they do it quite, they're often quite vocal.
Bhavesh: Yes, of course.
Nozizwe: In a public forum. And targeting those, because those are your change agents. By having few change agents across the department, we knew that you are able to drive the right narrative that you want, but also you start picking up some of the gaps that you might have overlooked as well as a business. So my mind, communicate, be transparent and do not underestimate the power of visible leadership.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: You have to lead the change. You can't present the change. It's not a PowerPoint concept.
Bhavesh: Yes.
Nozizwe: You actually have to lead the change, spend a lot of time on the floor engaging your staff members and show your team, your leaders also lead by example. By doing that, people could see that actually this is not just another thing that we're expecting to change overnight. We understand it's gonna be challenging. We understand that there'll be different reactions there, but we are committed to walking with you throughout this entire journey.
Bhavesh: And when you think about the journey you've been on and the transformation that has happened, you can see by the transformation by your staff and how they feel about now working for and operations, which perhaps in the past, as you said, wasn't seen as a career and perhaps you didn't have the capability to sit in front of your peers to demonstrate the value operations provides to the rest of the business. I think you're in a place now where you are able to do that, right?
Nozizwe: Yes, safe to say.
Bhavesh: And what's driven that, has that been having more data and insights that give you that capability and then also seeing, I guess if somebody sees they can deliver a turnaround time of 20 days compared to doing it in 50 days, that automatically is an empowerment.
Nozizwe: Correct.
Bhavesh: So how's that kind of impact helped?
Nozizwe: Yeah, so in banking you can't manage what you cannot measure.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: So I think just the ability of having data that quantifies the value makes a difference. So instead of just saying to people, no, we work hard in operations. Guys, we are the enablers.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: It's important that you bring forward information that says, I actually started with X number of headcount. I've managed to reduce my headcount by 30%, still delivering more results. So I've never compromised in terms of the, our payouts, the rate at which we pay out, the turn-around times, we've never compromised, but we've managed to actually become much more efficient. So that was one key data point that we brought forth. And I'm talking still at a high level from an EXCO perspective that, look, you gave me this portfolio reduced headcount. Not only that, I look at my turn-around times, I can proudly say on this product, that product, and that product, we are definitely first in the market when it comes to responding to our customers. We are the fastest when it comes to delivering that card. We are the fastest when it comes to registering that home loan. That was another key data point. And then you start looking at staff members, in terms of the a lot of surveys that we send out to staff just to ascertain their well-being.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: And those results also showing us that actually our team members, and team leaders, and managers are actually enjoying being in operations. We've created a really great place to work for our staff members. Not only that, we've now professionalized what they do through ActiveOps. We've got a lot of team leaders today that are accredited AOM team leaders. This is something they could have never achieved in the past. In the past, if you are not in sales, it becomes very difficult in an interview to define exactly what you do and the value you bring to the table. So for me, I think a lot of those matrix that we have put forward, a lot of the data that shows how we are contributing to the business growth targets, the productivity targets, the efficiency targets, and our contribution to that great customer experience matrix that we look at. For me, you cannot argue with results, Bhavesh.
Bhavesh: That's a, as I said, at the start of the podcast, it's a very inspiring journey you guys have been on because I would imagine by what you've just described for your employees, if you'd looked at an employee survey maybe before Phoenix to an employee survey now.
Nozizwe: Right.
Bhavesh: There's probably marked differences, right, in just the enthusiasm and the engagement.
Nozizwe: Absolutely.
Bhavesh: So I guess that leads me into if you were gonna go through this journey again and you were able to go back to yourself.
Nozizwe: Yeah.
Bhavesh: And say, okay, what would you do differently?
Nozizwe: Yes.
Bhavesh: Is there anything that you would say, actually, I would do that slightly differently?
Nozizwe: So I think we embarked obviously on the ActiveOps program or the journey about 18 months ago. And when we started, I really thought it's just another software that we are introducing into the system. And as a result of that, the immediate response was, oh, well, I like what they can do because I do not know how to track productivity today. I do not know how to forecast. I love what I'm seeing here in terms of their offering. And the immediate response was project manage. And looking back now, because I've seen the benefit in terms of how we have transformed our culture to really be in that Nedbank way. We've got a relatively healthy attrition, staff members look forward to coming to work. They love what they do. Our team leaders really feel that they are in credible professions. So it's no longer, so it moved from just being a software program or project management concept, to actually being the way we do business.
Bhavesh: Yeah, yeah.
Nozizwe: So looking back, I would've actually just started really on the culture journey. I would've engaged my HR counterparts much more earlier on to say, look, actually, in this world of hybrid working, in this world where we have a lot of people working from home, how do we start taking our own strategy and use this to enable that, to drive that, so that we are able to get optimal results.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: So holding the mirror to self, I do think, yeah, the approach was initially transactional, but we've certainly seen with the results that as much as you are getting those real tangible KPIs, it has been a transformational journey for all of us as a team.
Bhavesh: And, obviously, as you've said, you've seen results on your big KPIs around customer experience and your NPS score has improved and you've seen you marked improvement.
Nozizwe: Costs.
Bhavesh: People who like to be part of success, don't they?
Nozizwe: Correct.
Bhavesh: That culture generates itself as a result of that.
Nozizwe: Correct.
Bhavesh: So I'll kind of finish off with what are you proud of, what's your most proudest moment of this whole journey?
Nozizwe: So I think if I look back on the active option itself, Bhavesh, it was not an easy one. When we first started, we had to go through a lot of red tape in terms of signing this off. We approached it as a project to manage instead of a cultural journey. And when we started, I look back at when we started with that first wave, we started seeing results and then we added on the second wave, we are now in the third wave, we've got well over 900 staff members and still counting that are now in this program. I think if there’s one thing that I'm very, very proud of is that moment when we accredited our team leaders. Because for me that was professionalizing Ops, but also taking the time to acknowledge them for their contribution to the bank. Whenever we design programs, technology, incentives all these things, rewards, the frontline departments often take priority.
Bhavesh: Of course.
Nozizwe: What we started doing here was to say, irrespective of where you sit, yes, you don't sit in front of the customer, but we actually acknowledge your experience, we acknowledge your competence. And we are now saying with this ActiveOps accreditation, you can boldly, boldly sit in an interview and say, I can do this job and I can do it well. For me, that's a proud moment. Yes, I've got the results, but I'm a big fan of people development.
Bhavesh: Yep.
Nozizwe: There's an old saying that says treat people like they make a difference and they probably will.
Bhavesh: Yeah, that's a very good phrase. Very good phrase.
Nozizwe: Treat them like they make a difference and they probably will. And we've seen it where we've got people that have moved out of sales jobs to join client operations simply because they love what we do. The speed of execution, the focus, the drive, the high-performance culture has just been amazing. So yes, it's exhausting because-
Bhavesh: 24/7, right?
Nozizwe: 24/7, when the sales guys say we need to pay out 4 billion, guess what? We need to make sure that it's possible.
Bhavesh: Comes on your side, yeah.
Nozizwe: Absolutely. But really there's no ways we would've achieved these results, to be honest with you, if we didn't have management systems that empowered every single team leader. Remember those are the guys that drive that culture. They influence the team members.
Bhavesh: Yes.
Nozizwe: I mean, I can stand there, stand on stage, and tell people this is who we are, this is what we want to do. Ultimately, that guy there, that lady who's a team leader that looks after 10 or 12 people, that is actually your Ops Game Changer.
Bhavesh: Yes.
Nozizwe: If they do not buy into this program, there's no easy way to win. Those are the guys that make sure that you have the results. So for me, if you do not have the people as top of priority on your to-do list there's no easy way you're able to win in this industry.
Bhavesh: And actually, interesting enough, you prioritize that as one of your must-win battles, right? Of your four key strategic pillars.
Nozizwe: Correct.
Bhavesh: Which is really, really interesting. While I've got you, I can ask you a forward-looking question?
Nozizwe: Sure.
Bhavesh: So thinking about not just the Phoenix and the operations journey you've had so far, do you see operations transforming over the next five years? What do you think Ops in the future's gonna look like?
Nozizwe: That's an interesting question. Yeah, so for me, I think, yes, operations has now evolved from just pushing paper to be a key enabler for sales and service for any institution. We have seen that if you want to unlock efficiencies, don't just focus on technology, make sure you've got efficient processes. I do think that Ops in the future is the operations that supports platform business, where you're not only just pushing traditional banking products, but how do you use principles of effective throughput management to drive any product?
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: So as a bank we have a platform called Eval, where you are able to purchase any product. When you want to buy a toaster today, Bhavesh.
Bhavesh: You can do it.
Nozizwe: You can literally just go online and you're able to purchase. If you do not have any cash, no worries. We are able to even provide you credit on the spot so that you're able to buy the product.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: So the way I see it, operations evolves from just looking after banking, traditional banking products to more of the platform business.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: Managing that entire ecosystem. And that can only be done and achieved through one MI and data analytics. You also need technology that unlocks this and most importantly you need future fit staff.
Bhavesh: Yeah.
Nozizwe: You need staff members that empower.
Bhavesh: Who are flexible, right?
Nozizwe: Who are flexible. And we've seen it because there was a time, there was a big hype on digital and technology. We've seen it that you can never fully replace that human touch. You can never, ever fully replace it. So it is important that as an organization and as an Ops, you use data analytics as well as technology to empower your people to make great decisions when they service those customers.
Bhavesh: Wow, that's fantastic. I mean, so just wrapping up this episode of the podcast, thank you so much.
Nozizwe: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Bhavesh: For being with us and more importantly thank you so much for enabling us to come into the Nedbank offices in Johannesburg and do this live. But normally I do this through a Team's call or some virtual call, so it's fabulous to be here in person and it's fabulous to share the really what an inspirational journey that you guys have been on.
Nozizwe: Thank you.
Bhavesh: And really the hard work and effort, I mean, many people say we've gotta put customers at the center of your business.
Nozizwe: Yeah.
Bhavesh: It's a lot harder to do than actually the words are.
Nozizwe: Correct.
Bhavesh: So it's a very inspiring story and I'm sure a lot of, our listeners will, who are all Ops people, will take a lot of nuggets of what you've described.
Nozizwe: Thank you.
Bhavesh: And be able to put that into their operational journey. So thank you so much for taking that time and spending this with us and being an Ops game changer.
Nozizwe: No, thank you so much, Bhavesh. It's been a huge privilege really for me to be able to tell our story. Really, thank you so much. So for the partnership, I think with the ActiveOps, we pride ourselves today with these great results, but simply because we've had a partner that is there with us every minute. So a big thank you to you and the team, but also I think to our people, I look good today because we've got great people.
Bhavesh: Absolutely.
Nozizwe: That have actually embraced this change and make sure that we deliver great value for our clients.
Bhavesh: Fantastic. Thank you, Nozi. So wrapping up the Ops Game Changers podcast. I can hope you can all, as you listen to this, you'll be inspired like I have in terms of the journey that Nedbank have gone through and the inspirational stories of staff and how they've become very central to this new culture that's been generated. So as always, until the next time, thank you very much for listening and we hope to see you soon. Thanks and bye.