Are Your Hormones Holding You Back? | Dr. Harry Collins

Ever been told your labs are “normal,” yet you still feel sluggish, foggy, and flat? We sit down with Dr. Harry Collins—OBGYN, age management physician, and retired Army lieutenant colonel—to unpack what optimal really means for energy, recovery, and long-term vitality. Harry shares the journey that led him from delivering babies to rebuilding his own health, then helping patients bridge the gap between average numbers and how they want to live.

We dig into the differences between bioidentical hormones and older synthetics, explaining why structure matters and how tissues respond when molecules match what the body naturally makes. For women navigating menopause, we talk through estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, and the markers that confirm the transition. For men and women in their late 30s to 50s who train hard yet underperform, we explore why free testosterone and free T3 often tell the real story behind stalled progress and longer recovery. Treating the person, not the paper, becomes the through line.

Metabolic health takes center stage as we connect hormone optimization to motivation, adherence, and visceral fat loss. We break down GLP-1 therapies, practical nutrition shifts, and why strength training is non-negotiable for health span. Harry also explains peptides like semorelin, why growth hormone requires patience, and how to build an approach that balances evidence, access, and cost. Along the way, you’ll hear candid advice on choosing the right provider, what to include in a comprehensive lab panel, and why periodic check-ins at six and twelve weeks help calibrate progress.

We close with a simple definition of wellness: stay out of the ER and the nursing home, keep moving, and live fully on your terms. If you’re ready to replace guesswork with clarity—and “normal” with optimal—hit play and bring your questions. If this conversation sparks insight, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review so more curious listeners can find us.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Are you ready to live an active lifestyle? Welcome to Behind the Bluff, where we believe every moment of your life is an opportunity to pursue wellness on your terms. Today's episode is recorded immediately after Dr. Harry Collins' live wellness talk on the science of bioidentical hormones and healthy aging. If you've been told your labs are normal, but you still feel off, low energy, poor recovery, brain fog, this conversation is for you. Dr. Collins is an OBGYN, a certified age management medicine physician, and a retired lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army Medical Corps. He served at Walter Reed and as a command physician during Operation Urgent Fury. Today he focuses on hormone health and helping people stay healthy and strong as they age. Today we're diving into what optimal really means and how to protect your energy, performance, and vitality long term. Dr. Collins, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Jeff, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

Dr. Collins’ Path To Age Medicine

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Thanks for taking the time to educate our membership here at Bob. A great group of people. Yeah, and this was your first time here on Property. It is beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, we are blessed to be here and beautiful. Thrilled we could get in and have a conversation with you today so that uh everyone can learn a little bit more about what you do and bioidentical hormones is a hot topic right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

It is, it is, and I'm happy to be doing what I'm doing too. I know one of the questions you were going to ask me is how do I get into this? And it all happened because of me, my health. Yeah. You know, I started to get a gut, I was delivered a lot of babies, a lot of female hormone optimization, a lot of gynecology. I started to get a gut, lose lean muscle, gaining fat, sexual libido is in the pot, erections were in the pot, no energy, felt terrible. Um I sold my medical practice. One of my colleagues invited me down to Boca Ratone, Florida for an age management medicine conference, pretty much put on by Cynigenics Medical Institute. They're one of the largest age management medical practices in the world. They've got a patient base of about 30,000 patients. So I went down there and the topic pretty much was evidence-based medicine. And I needed the continuing medical education credits to keep my Georgia license. So that was what brought me there to begin with. And then I signed up with Cynigenics. Dr. Life, Jeff Life was my doctor. They're such a large organization that they had a certifying program in age management medicine and biogenical hormones that I got certified through them, went to work with them for about a year and a half, almost two years at their medical institute in Las Vegas, and in January of 2010 brought all their medical protocols back to Savannah. So we're pretty much doing exactly the same thing they're doing, but on a smaller scale.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Personal experiences that we have with our health tends to drive changes in how we operate as professionals.

Energy, Motivation, And Exercise

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah. I mean, you know, and exercise is such a big part of our medical practice. Listen, when I was in high school, I drank, I smoked, I had two jobs, I would never jock, I never exercised until I became a patient at Cynigenics. And what they told me was, they said, Collins, we're going to get your hormone levels optimal. We're going to increase your motivation, increase your energy, and you've got to start working out. So that's what got me. A lot of my patients, and some of the people I met today, they're not really exercising, but it's not their fault, is because their energy is so low and they're not motivated because their hormones are in the bucket.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah, that's a good point. So meaning because they're not an optimal place, the desire and motivation to want to move their bodies or to train hard just isn't there.

Who Actually Needs Hormones

SPEAKER_00 3:59

That's right. One of the things I failed to mention this morning was that all this stuff started back in 1996, and that's the year that the FDA approved growth hormone for adults. Up till that time it had only been for kids of short stature. Well, when it started in 96, Cynigenics and all the other age management medicine practices thought that their demographic age group was going to be the baby boomers like me. I'm 79? No. It's men and women in their late 30s, 40s, early 50s that are going to the gym, they're working hard, they're eating healthy, but they're not seeing the results they saw 10, 20 years before, and the recovery time's longer. And it's because their hormones are in the bucket. Once we get them optimal, tremendous difference in their workout routine and just feeling good.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

That's interesting to me that it's a younger patient profile that's utilizing your services. What makes it important for someone in their 40s to potentially turn to the use of bioidentical hormones?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah. We lose 2-3% of our hormones every year after the age of 30. So we're on the way downhill. I'd say our typical age group is somebody in their 40s, 50s. But my oldest patient, 91. Yeah, 91. And he's been my patient now for five years. He came in his late 80s. Um the youngest patient, um got a 29-year-old. But the reason that I took her, normally I don't take patients under 30. This is a young lady who had a hysterectomy, a total hysterectomy. She's a nurse, an RN, and um felt absolutely terrible afterwards. And a doctor, an OBGYN doctor should have started her on hormone replacement therapy.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

And when you say feel terrible after, just her energy down the teaves.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Mood changes, all the signs and symptoms of menopause because really she went through surgical menopause, hot flashes, vaginal dryness, uh, gaining weight, just felt absolutely terrible. And nobody would touch her. And she came in to see me and I drew her labs and I said, Oh my gosh, you're you got the hormone levels of a 70-year-old.

unknown 6:09

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

So the labs matched up with how she was feeling. And and that was something powerful that you mentioned in the conversation this morning, that instead of just treating the labs, treating the person. Can you elaborate on that?

Treat The Patient, Not The Lab

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, we did we we never want to treat a lab. And the and the reason is is because um the findings can be erroneous. Um for example, I talked about vitamin D3 this morning. Uh the norms uh that come back from the lab report are 30 to 100. Well, if somebody comes back 31, the primary care guy is gonna say, you're fine, you don't need vitamin D3. Well, yes, you do. Vitamin D3 is a hormone. Our body doesn't make it, it comes from sunlight, but it's much more important than just strong bones. Super duper boost the immune system. Um testosterone levels. There might you might be normal. But in medical school, Jeff, we had a term called uboxic. If it's in the box on the right-hand side of the lab report, if it's in the box, you're eboxic.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Eboxic.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, and then the primary care guy will say, Hey, you're fine. Well, I don't feel fine. You know, so that's when we you don't want to look at what's in the box or the number. You want to treat the patient. So after we start them with our practice, six weeks afterwards we look at a testosterone and a thyroid level. Um, and then but I want to talk to them. And then six weeks after that, we look at everything growth hormone, all the cholesterol panels, complete blood count, everything. But I want to talk to them. Yeah.

Military Journey To Medicine

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Harry, that makes sense to me because you've got these defined six weeks period of time. Twelve weeks is a great rule of thumb with any intervention to kind of see where we're at at that first quarter mark. That's right. Harry, before we keep going here, I want to thank you tremendously for your two tours of service in the United States Army. And I'm very curious what inspired you to become a doctor in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

So when uh I graduated from high school in '65, uh, I went to Ole Miss. My first semester, Jeff, I had a.02 GPA. You know, yeah, I got drafted. Ole Miss is a party school. I wasn't, I wasn't, I'd always wanted to be a doctor. Always wanted to be a doctor. And my mother and father convinced me to go to Ole Miss because it would be easier to get into the University of Mississippi Medical School if I went to the University of Mississippi. And they also told me that when I was in high school I should study Latin because all doctors needed to speak Latin. No. I should have studied Spanish in case I didn't get accepted to a school in the United States, I could go down south somewhere, you know. But anyway, so I got drafted, um, went to Vietnam for a year. I was a radar mechanic, still wanted to be a physician, got out, sold Volkswagens for about four years, four years, and then I decided I've got one last chance to do this. So I went and took high school chemistry all over again. Um I think that was the only high school class I took, um, and graduated from the University of Colorado with an undergraduate degree, um, got accepted to the Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences, College of Osteopathic Medicine, um, and they had just started this new program. You and I talked about this called the Armed Forces Health Profession Scholarship Program. Um if you were breathing back then, they took you. I'm not smart. I was breathing. They picked me up, which is great. I mean, um there there's a saying if you take the bottom 10% of your medical school class, and if you can bench press your weight, you go into orthopedics, and the rest of them go into OBGYN.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

I have not heard that.

Menopause And Female Hormones

SPEAKER_00 9:37

So I mean, no, I mean I I wasn't in the bottom 10%, but I surely wasn't in the top 10% either. Uh I mean Volkswagen salesman go into be a gynecologist, but I mean, look, I trained at one of the most prestigious medical centers in the world, Walter Reed Army Medical Center. I couldn't have done that if they hadn't accepted me in the Army, you know? So um, you know, so yeah, so I I came out and uh they sent me to Fort Bragg, North Carolina first, and I did my internship in family medicine, and then I decided I don't like taking care of sick people. OBGYN is happy, healthy. It's fun to deliver these babies. I've actually got a couple of kids named Harry after me out there. Okay. So um delivered babies, it's a happy health. You'll see there's some sadness and bad moms, bad babies, that sort of thing. But overall it's a it's a great profession. But when I was uh in in the military, you just can't go from one residency to the other residency because it was in family practice. You gotta pay your dues first. Well, they were gonna send me to Fort Polk, Louisiana, which is like 12 feet under sea level. You know, you got to go drive 60 miles to the nearest shopping center. And I said, okay, I'll go for two years to get to Walter Reed. Well, the chief of the emergency room at Fort Bragg liked me, and we got along great. He said, Harry, I have a job opening here for two years for a general medical officer. Do you want it? I said, sure, I got to keep my house. They worked in the emergency room. He did ER medicine. Um, and then in October of 1983, when President Reagan intervened in Grenada, they pulled me out, I think it was in November, and sent me to Grenada for four months. Now, if you're going to have a war, Jeff, let's have one in a Caribbean island that's over with in three days. There'll never be another war like that. Well, President Reagan used the term intervention, but it was an invasion. Either term you want to use. And whenever you intervene a country, you have to put money into the country. So they leased the holiday inn on the beach, put Constantine wire all around it with an MP station. They kept the pool open. We had free laundry, they kept the buffet open, they kept the bar open. You had to pay for our own booze, you know. But it was a vacation. Nobody was getting sick. There were no malingers because everybody was having such a good time, and the war was open in three over in three days. Well, the whole unit stayed there for a year. I couldn't because I had to go to Walter Reed. But that was one of the best tours of duty in the military. There'll never be another one like Matt.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yeah. Wow. Closing down a holiday in like that. I know.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

At least the whole holiday in.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, that's that's a story for sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Harry, you mentioned earlier that vitamin D is a big deficiency. Testosterone imbalances are part of a commonality in aging adults. Talk to us a little bit more about the aging female.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Well, I mean, if you look at a menopausal lady, okay, and I talked about this this morning too. The average age of menopause in the United States is 51 and a half or 52. The textbook definition of menopause is a lady not having a menstrual cycle for 12 months, but you can miss one period and still be menopausal. We could do a blood test called an FSH follicle stimulating hormone, LH Luteinizing Hormone, to see if you've gone through the change of life. These ladies, their estradiol is like less than 0.1. You know, it could be zero. Their testosterone is less than 0.2, their progesterone level is less than 0.3. That's sub-suboptimal for what we need for good health. All the journals say, for example, that replacing these hormone levels to get you optimal where you need to be, which is in your early 20s, decreases your more libidity and mortality across the board by 50%.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Yeah, that's that's pretty convincing evidence.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah, it is. It really is.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Yeah. Now, I think hormones get a bad rap because uh, and you mentioned it earlier, the women's health initiative study uh that had been around scared a lot of people off. I uh before we before we get there and kind of understand hormone optimization and who it's right for, can can you help us understand what are bioidentical hormones and how are they different from synthetic hormones?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Sure. Um so for 35 years, Jeff, I did female hormone replacement therapy. Never saw a guy. And and by the way, probably I'd say probably 65% of our patients now are male, 35 female, even though I'm OBGYN. Yeah. Um But when I would when I did female hormone replacement therapy as an obstetrician gynecologist, we used synthetic hormones. Premarin, a synthetic estrogen that comes from pregnant horse's urine. Ladies felt better, um, they didn't feel optimal, and most of them quit taking it when they found out that it came from pregnant horse's urine. We use Provera, a synthetic progestin, not a progesterone. We use synthroid, a levotheroxin. It's a synthetic thyroid, it's a T4. Well, your thyroid makes T4, T3. The T4 converts, there's two purposes of T4. One helps T3 cross the blood-brain barrier, and number two, converts into T3. So these are all synthetic hormones that the body does not recognize as coming from the body, which pretty much gives you the definition of bioidenticals. A bioidential hormone is a chemical and molecular structure pretty much synthesized in the laboratory, but it's exactly the same chemical and molecular structure that your thyroid makes, your pituitary gland makes, a lady's ovaries make, a guy's testicles make. So the body recognizes it as coming from the body. There's really never been a side effect, there's never been a complication. So if you stop and think about this, even though it's by prescription only, I'm really not giving you any medicine. I'm just getting you back to the levels you had in your early 20s based on good solid medical evidence.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Got it. So synthetic would equate to exogenous and bioidentical would equate to natural.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Exactly right. Exactly.

Metabolic Health And GLP-1s

SPEAKER_01 15:40

So let's let's dig into metabolic health a little bit. I think the big thing we're seeing is the use of GLP1 drugs. And we know visceral fat is extremely harmful to long-term health. How does hormonal supplementation, the use of bioidentical hormones, help with metabolic health?

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Well, so I guess the definition of metabolism is the conversion of food and drink into energy. Okay. Um and if you look at optimizing your hormones, it all goes back to increasing your energy and your motivation to get you exercising. Because exercise is such a big, big part of our medical practice. A lot of my patients, exercise is a four-letter word. They don't want to do it, they've never done it. But once we get them exercised, their motivation up and their energy up, they'll they'll start doing it. So just by increasing your exercise, um, decreasing your caloric intake, I mean, if you especially if you have a gut and you've got a metabolic syndrome, obesity, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, hyperlipidemia, uh he increased cholesterol. So that's just the fact that we're gonna optimize your hormones and get you working out, that's gonna make all the difference right there.

Peptides, GH, And Semorelin

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Yeah, yeah, no, right on. Now, peptides are being spoken about quite a bit these days in age management medicine. So for someone who's looking to age well, what are you seeing with the use of peptides in your patients?

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Uh it's a gray area, as I mentioned this morning. Um, none of this stuff is approved by the FDA, but that doesn't make any difference. A lot of stuff's off testosterone's off-label, you know, so that does that doesn't make any difference. But um a peptide is a small chain of amino acids that goes to be a protein, it's a messenger that carries this message for skin and gut and all over the body. We eat peptides. Yeah, yeah. We eat peptides, yeah. And so and so um there's two that I'm familiar with. One, we talked about this morning, the GLP ones, the semiglutide, the trazepide, the GOVI, all that stuff. Um that stops glucagon from uh bringing sugar into the cell. Okay? It inhibits your appetite too. The other one that we that I'm familiar with that I prescribe a lot, made by a compound pharmacy, is semorlin. Sumorlin is a GHRF, growth hormone releasing factor. I'm a big advocate of growth hormone. However, there's two downsides to that. One is expense, and it really makes me mad because it's very similar to insulin in both chemical and molecular structure, but big pharma is jacking up the price because of supply and demand. And then the other downside is it takes seven to eleven months before you start to see or feel any results with growth hormone. I've had men and women patients quit taking it after three or four months. I say, why'd you quit? I didn't feel any better, look any better. Well, you're not supposed to, according to the medical literature. So somorlin is an inexpensive way to increase your insulin-like growth factor one, which is how we check growth hormone. It's a little bitty small, it's a peptide, a little bitty small injection that you give yourself Monday through Friday, five days a week before you go to bed at night, and it's telling your pituitary gland to make more growth hormone while you sleep.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Those are the two peptides that I'm mainly familiar with.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Okay. And and you see patients coming to you asking about these top two peptides. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yes. When they find out what the price of growth hormone is, is there any alternative? I say, yeah, but you're not going to get exactly where you need to be with the Sumorlin, but it'll get you up there.

First Steps And Lab Panels

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Understood. Well, let's let's make this practical. If someone listening wants more energy, better longevity starting now, what are the first two or three steps they should take?

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Um well, number one, contact our office, okay? Uh can I throw a phone number out? Of course. 912-925-6911. We'll email you a lab requisition to check a complete lab panel. Now, if you've seen a primary care doctor recently and he's done a complete blood count and lipid panel and kidney function, liver function, we'll just check your hormones. But we look at everything. Uh we'll send that out, and then you're either welcome to come into our office or we can talk to you on the telephone, and then we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Understood. What question should individuals be asking their provider if they're curious about hormone optimization?

Choosing The Right Provider

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Well, most providers, and I mentioned this this morning, they're good guys. They're excellent physicians, but most of them don't want anything to do with hormones. Um and they don't go to the classes, they don't go to the courses. So if you if your provider is really a good guy, he would look you straight in the face and say, I'm not familiar with that. Go see somebody who this is their specialty. Okay? Uh as long as they're not throwing out bad information. That's the thing. Because a lot of these guys say, Oh, it's bad. These hormones are going to kill you. You're playing with fire with testosterone. Nothing could be further from the truth, and they're really doing their patient a disservice by telling them that. But as long as they're giving them good information, sure, we can do a hormone panel on you. Most of them don't know exactly what to order. You know, for example, in your testosterone, I see people coming into my office all the time, their primary care doctor ordered a total testosterone. You don't want to do that because both men and women make what's called sex hormone binding globulin. It attaches to the total, makes it inactive. So, Jeff, you, me, all my patients, we have all this inactive testosterone that we pee off or we perspire off. What's left is the free testosterone that every cell in your body has a receptor for. Fat burner, lean muscle builder, on and on. So you should be looking at a free. Most primary care guys, like when I was in medical school, we were taught that a TSH, thyroid stimulating hormone, which comes from the pituitary gland, is the way you check a thyroid to make the diagnosis of hypo, low, or hyper high thyroid. No, you should be looking at what's called a free T3. That's your active thyroid. So the point being with all this, I would hope they would draw the right blood blood work. But that would be the first thing. If they're if they're willing to do labs and they're a good guy, I just don't want I always tell my patients when they come in to see me, the last thing in the world I want to do is pit my patients against two doctors. I don't want another. Doctor saying, Yeah, you shouldn't be doing this, shouldn't be doing that, uh, when they haven't gone to the courses.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Yeah. Yeah. The big key is like in all medicine, there's different specialties. Exactly. Like in all fields. So making sure you're getting the right panels to then treat what you find.

Healthy Aging And Health Span

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Yeah. Okay. You're exactly right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Harry, how does the use of bioidentical hormones relate to healthy aging?

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Well, um I mean, like again, I kind of sort of mentioned this morning, my personal goal is to be able to get out of my chair when I'm 100 with no health. Um, but we want to live a happy, healthy life lifestyle. Uh uh life. Um, it doesn't do us any good to live to 100 if we're going to be sick. That's mainly, I mean, I want to look good and feel good now, and I do. I work out, I play pickleball. Um, I'm 79, but I have the hormone levels of a 20-year-old, you know. And but I want to keep that up. This is one of these things people say, well, should I cycle? Because a lot of bodybuilders cycled in the past. They would take testosterone for six months, stop for six months, or they used exogenous steroids, which we don't do at all. I don't take care of any bodybuilders or professional athletes, for example. But my main goal is to keep us out of the nursing homes, and I want to increase our health span, not our lifespan. Um, hopefully, when you die, you'll die when you're sleeping. Yeah. You know, you don't you don't want to be sick. That's that's and like I meant and like I mentioned this morning, growth hormone decreases your risk of cancer by 50% across all causes.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Causes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it it is remarkable. Uh Harry, I'd love to just wrap things up with final question that we like to ask every guest. What does wellness mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Wellness means staying out of the emergency room, staying out of the nursing home, um, living your life to the fullest. Uh I'm starting at 79, I'm still working, um, but I want to step in, you know, smell the roses a little bit. Um, do a lot of travel. I just want to enjoy life. But my patients, when they retire, I say, Bob, don't become a couch potato. You know, but the one of the last conferences I went to, Jeff, oh, this is profound to the professor said, sitting is worse than smoking. We got to keep moving. Our bodies are meant to move. So that's what I'm trying to do. Stay well, keep moving, and avoid the nursing home.

Host Reflections And Cautions

Closing And Member Challenge

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Stay well, keep moving. That's right. Words to live by. Yeah. Harry, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having me. Appreciate your expertise and learning from you today. And uh, listeners, feel free to hang out with me for a few more minutes and get some healthy momentum for the rest of your week. This was a topic I am not an expert in, and I'll be honest, a lot of what Dr. Collins shared was over my head. And that's okay. One of the reasons I loved the discussion is because it stretched me. And I was thinking to myself during his wellness talk in the podcast, wow, I've got a lot of questions to ask my wife, Lindsay. And it also reminded me of how important it is to stay curious, to keep learning, especially when it comes to something as personal as our health. My mission since the team and I got going here at Palmetto Bluff has always been to have education as a big component of what we do. We're always learning new things. And the way to learn new things is to bring in experts that go beyond your scope. And when it comes to hormones or any health decision, we have to remember that this is deeply individual. What works for one person may not be appropriate for another. It should always be evaluated with proper medical guidance, testing, and personal context. We have to be careful with trends, we have to be careful with social media, and by no means is it appropriate to make assumptions, especially when you are still learning of what might be right for you. And here's the bigger takeaway for me. Sometimes when something isn't working, our energy, our recovery, our sleep, performance, mood, it may be a signal to go one step further in understanding our health. Not to panic, not to overreact, but to investigate, to ask better questions and to see clarity. I've always found that progress often starts with awareness. That's why my model the three steps that will help anyone to create any change in their life begins with a step of being present, creating self-awareness. So if you're feeling stuck, maybe the next step isn't doing more, maybe it's understanding more. Stay curious, stay intentional, and make decisions that are right for you. That's your healthy momentum. That message brings us to the end of this week's podcast. I want to thank you so much for taking the time to join the conversation this week. And if you're a member, I want to challenge you to share the behind the bluff podcast with another member. Maybe it's this episode, maybe it's a past episode that made an impact in your life. Please share this out with other like-minded members who would like to actively participate in life on their terms. We'll see you next Wednesday.