20. Hurdle2Hope® Stories - Meet Lousie Butcher

Would you ever consider running a marathon topless after a mastectomy? 

In this episode, I chat with Louise Butcher, 'Topless Marathon Runner',  who took on this extraordinary challenge to transform societal perceptions and  stigmas around body image.

If you LOVED the episode, make sure you share this on your Instagram stories and tag us @wellbeinginterrupted and Louise.

Key Episode Takeaways

• Embracing Challenges for Self-Discovery and Empowerment: Facing and overcoming significant challenges, like a mastectomy or running a marathon topless, can lead to profound self-discovery and a sense of empowerment. Louise’s journey shows how embracing these challenges can redefine personal strength and resilience.
• Advocating for Your Health and Trusting Your Instincts: It’s crucial to advocate for your own health and trust your instincts, even when medical tests come back clear. Louise’s persistence in checking her own body despite a clear mammogram led to the early detection of her cancer, highlighting the importance of self-awareness and self-advocacy.
• Combining Passion with Purpose to Change Perceptions: Integrating a personal passion, such as running, with a meaningful cause can challenge and change societal perceptions. Louise’s topless marathon run not only raised awareness but also pushed the boundaries of societal norms regarding body image and breast cancer.
• The Power of Visibility and Representation: Visibility and representation play critical roles in healing and overcoming stigmas. Louise’s decision to run topless made a powerful statement about body positivity and resilience, showing that embracing and displaying our differences can help reduce stigma and inspire others.

Show Resources

• Podcast Website: Wellbeing Interrupted
• Follow Lousie on Instagram: @louisebutcher39
• Follow Louise on Facebook: @Louise_Bernadette_Butcher
• Wellbeing Interrupted Episode 3: Your Mindset is Everything: The Key to Thriving Beyond Health Challenges
• Wellbeing Interrupted Episode 13: Chronic Illne

Discover more by visiting www.hurdle2hope.com/healing-mindset-illness

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Teisha xo

Always remember to thrive after a life-changing diagnosis... Your Mindset is Everything!


Learn more about the Hurdle2Hope® Roadmap by watching the Mindset Masterclass Reclaim Your Life. It's available now on-demand.

Podcast Website http://www.wellbeinginterrupted.com/


Contact Teisha or Hurdle2Hope® for more information or feedback Contact Us

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Transcript

Wellbeing Interrupted


Episode 20: Hurdle2Hope Stories: Meet Louise Butcher

INTRO: 

Hey there, Teisha here, and welcome to episode 20 of Wellbeing Interrupted. This is our first international guest, Louise Butcher, and she truly embodies Hurdle2Hope®. You see, I came across Louise's story on the ABC news and a whole heap of social media posts because Louise became the first topless marathon runner to complete the London Marathon.

 I loved chatting with Louise. Her story is incredible, and her reason for running topless—I'll let her explain that to you. But I am in absolute awe of her bravery and her commitment to breaking down stigma, challenging body image, and really encouraging all of us to embrace the differences that our illnesses create in our lives.

So enjoy this chat. We chatted for a while; I recorded for an hour, and then we chatted for another hour offline. But Louise is a gorgeous person, and I really hope you get lots out of this chat whether you're living with breast cancer or any other illness. So enjoy.

TEISHA: Okay so welcome Louise to Wellbeing Interrupted. I'm so excited to actually meet you, as you've been on our TV quite a bit and on social media over the last few weeks by creating this awareness of people living with breast cancer and going through mastectomies. And your image running the London Marathon topless was incredibly powerful. I've spoken about it to oncology nurses to my hairdresser, so your message is getting here to us here in Australia so welcome.

LOUISE: Thank you for having me on, Teisha. I'm really excited because I love talking about the journey because it's obviously empowering so many people. And I love the fact that people like you and everybody who sort of accepted the journey and spread it around or jumped on board as well because I think that's so important for the message getting out there.

TEISHA: Absolutely, and we should say from the outset it's one flat-chested woman to another flat-chested woman. We've both had a very similar experience although even before having MS, I wasn't into running so what you're doing is unbelievable. And I can't use MS as an excuse for not doing that, because running was never my thing. So, I'm in complete awe of what you've done.

LOUISE: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I think the running as well is really important because the reason why the running and the topless to me worked was because of all the cancers, the breast cancer, the breasts, the mastectomy, was kind of looked at in a negative way. Whereas running isn't; it's looked on as powerful, strength, determination, resilience. And I thought the two together is something you don't usually see. You don't see that connection. So I thought let's do that connection. And that's kind of how the running and the topless running came about really.

TEISHA: Oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. It's such a powerful message. So, and so courageous, because it's, it was hard at the beginning even to tell people, now you know I'm flat chested, let alone show people that I'm flat chested.

LOUISE: Yeah, what I found really interesting is I kind of used myself as a guinea pig with the topless running because I found it interesting that as a person who'd gone from having breasts to not having them. It wasn't the feeling that I had with not having them. It was the feeling of other people's perception of me not having them. So I knew it was a social norm and a stigma that was affecting the way I felt negatively about it. So if there wasn't any judgment or any perception or anybody feeling pity for someone who's lost their breast I think I'd have been fine with being flat-chested because as we were talking about earlier there's quite a lot of positives to it.

TEISHA: Yes.

LOUISE: And I actually like it. But it was the sort of feeling that there was pity thrown on me and the perception of  'oh well you're not a woman, you're not feminine, oh you need to put some back'. That I knew it was the outside stigma and that's why I thought well if we show the flat chest, if we show the mastectomy out there in a form rather than a picture. So we see that person running doing things, living the life, then the normalization will begin and then the stigma will be reduced. Which will then entail in years to come, hopefully not that many years to come, the fact that when a woman does have to make that choice, she'll have some positives and also she will see that the actual perception of it has changed. So then it's not about what other people think, it's about what that woman thinks which is really important.

TEISHA: Really important. If we just take a step back, when were you diagnosed with breast cancer?

LOUISE: I was diagnosed in twenty twenty-two, so it's two years ago. April twenty twenty-two which was three weeks after I'd had a mammogram, a clear one.

TEISHA: Oh my goodness.

LOUISE: Yeah, so we in England we call upon the NHS I think it's from like the age of forty-nine for a mammogram screening. And I hadn't been called up and I used to suffer with health anxiety, on and off during my life quite significantly so I was always worried I had some disease. And so I used to book and pay for private mammograms I only had two but I had them because I just wanted to make sure even though I didn't have any symptoms, and I'd gone for a mammogram, and it came back clear. And because I'd had the mammogram I really had a good delve, like a good feel. I mean I used to do the checking.

TEISHA: Yep.

LOUISE: But I felt like right I've got a baseline now I'm totally clear. I've got no cancer. So I'm going to delve right in there so I know what to go from every month I'll know if there's a change. And that's when I went right in, and I felt like a tiny little thickening like a tiny little it wasn't like a round circle like a thickening attached to something else. Wasn't worried went to the GP she wasn't worried. But because of my health anxiety she sent me to the breast clinic for peace of mind. And that's when they found the cancer. They found it on ultrasound, not mammogram.

TEISHA: Wow. Just that's such an important piece. Really important.

LOUISE: The advocacy of like, yeah I got a clear scan, but I still wanted to make sure myself so the whole knowing what your breasts are about knowing how they feel, even if your mammogram comes back clear I think because the type of cancer I had which was lobular, which actually is the second most common breast cancer.

TEISHA: Yeah.

LOUISE: Um it got well on scans because it grows like a little spider's web. So instead of forming a mass.

TEISHA: Mhmm.

LOUISE: Because it has no stickiness. It hasn't got a glue to stick it together. It's lost a gene which sticks it together. It grows outwards in lines, and and then it weaves in and out of the tissue so it's not showing up on the mammogram. Which is quite scary.

TEISHA: That's really scary. And who would have thought as we do a bit of a public announcement about our breasts, I had really dense breasts and I had no idea. It was like how do you know I don't have anyone else's breasts to compare.

LOUISE: No. It's not that you don't talk about dense breasts but that is natural.

LOUISE: That's one of the reasons. Not even with lobular with any type of breast cancer the dense breasts because it does show up. I think you just you think mammograms, it does say that they're not a hundred percent. Well you kind of do put a lot into them and think well this is clear so I'm fine.

TEISHA: Yeah. And it does show us you really have to advocate for yourself in the medical system, you know wherever you're living whatever country it's if we feel something's not right then we push to have it tested even more. So thank goodness. You did.

LOUISE: Yeah. I did.

TEISHA: Once you found out you had breast cancer how quickly did the whole mastectomy conversation happen?

LOUISE: So that was quite, um, it was a bit of a roller coaster that because because it was lobular and it doesn't grow in a mass the surgeon was worried that she wouldn't get clear margins with a lumpectomy.

TESISHA: Mhmm.

LOUISE: So initially she said lumpectomy, radiotherapy. And I kind of had said I don't want a lumpectomy I want both breasts off.  Get it out because as soon as I got told I had cancer it's like uh these are killer machines let's get rid of them. I'm not bothered and I literally said she said no we can't do a double mastectomy, let's look at lumpectomy so we went down that road, and then I had an MRI scan which showed up less cancer than the ultrasound did so she was like no we're going to have to a mastectomy because we don't know where it is we don't know that we we can't see half of it, some of it showing here so when we did the mastectomy on the left breast which had the cancer in, it was five centimetres which was way bigger than the scans showed which is really common with lobular, really common. Um because I've done a lot of research on the, sort of forums for lobular breat cancer and most women when they get the mastectomy find it's a lot bigger.

LOUISE: Um that was that. So I had that taken off, and I said I cannot cope with one boob. There's no way that I can walk around and think that this is alright. And I kept not being able to look at the actual boob I could look at the scar really easy that didn't affect me at all. But I couldn't look at the boob because it was three things that reminded me of what I'd lost on this side I thought it was going to get sick as well because if I didn't see it in that one how was I going to see it in the other one and how on earth to feel like fully complete when you're lopsided and it was like this is not working and it took me eight weeks to I just constantly said I can't cope I can't cope I can't go until she agreed, and it wasn't just the surgeon she had to get a whole group to agree. And that was only because they had to go back in on the left side to get clear clearer margins because it was so up against the chest wall. Then for my mental health she took the right one off at the same time. But there's so many women that I've spoke to, who cannot get that done?

TEISHA: Yeah. I'd I was exactly exactly through you. It was in three and a half weeks I went from one done to the second one I was the same I was like I was standing from the mirror I'm like the same thing this reminds me of what I no longer have and I sat down I was like saying to Andrew it's useless. What's it doing there it's just hanging there and I thought let's just do it and I actually had a retreat booked um in six weeks when I went and saw the surgeon. And I said any chance of being flat chested so I can go to the retreat and start healing and she said if you feel ready let's do it, so my decision was for the retreat and it was the best decision I made because there's like right. Let's just do it. And it is it's heaps easier when you're flat otherwise how do you match?

LOUSIE: Like I don't know and also when they give you the the fake boobs, that never fits and you're absolutely worried you're self-conscious because you don’t know if it’s gone up and down whereas when you've got nothing there there's nothing to be self conscious about because nothing's moving around. And I also felt it as well that when I had the flat chest and I spoke to women who had reconstruction, that they couldn't feel the boobs because they're implants and you can’t feel them and they felt disconnected to it whereas I could feel all my scars all my chest nerves have come back so even though there's no, like lump there  I can feel it it's me so I don't feel detached. That's another thing that I find with people who've had reconstruction who aren't happy with it that they feel detached to it.

TEISHA: That's interesting. And I didn't have a choice because having MS anyway, they said reconstruction is out of the equation because of the risk of action my body wouldn't cope so it was sort of good because I'd been it's like well I know what I'm doing let's do it you know so no no decision made um which is good.

LOUISE: Wow that's brilliant as well as you managed to get that done. In that amount of time because obviously they they only did it for me because to go back in they were doing that anyway but you managed to get that because there's so many women who don't get it and they have to have counselling to make sure that they're in the right state of mind. That's what I've found. I know of because apparently, at the time that you are told you've got cancer because you're so worried about the cancer you're not thinking straight. Um and you don't really know your own mind and I was like I knew exactly what I was thinking I knew exactly I wouldn't regret it i don't know where that comes from I don't know.

TEISHA: No. No No um I had no regrets for me you know I just saw I just feel and we talk about empowerment and how empowering is that to say right you know, this one was fine .. so I'm doing we're using our hands a lot around our chest no one will see it. I'm like this one though was fine.

LOUISE: I know it's so weird. But, what I find really interesting and you probably think the same. It's when the cancer came along it was out of our control.

TEISHA: Mhmm.

LOUISE: And I feel that the whole sense of no this is my decision this is my control. I want to be flat I know this is the right thing for me gives you back that little bit of empowerment and control over your body isn't it because you've at the end of the day you wouldn't choose to have your breasts taken away but there's a reason why it's gonna save your life or it's gonna make your life longer or whatever reasons and you're gonna do that but it's still not your choice is it.

LOUSIE:  So I think the whole taking away that woman's choice especially some surgeons that I've read about who actually leave skin there flats because I think when the woman's woken up she's gonna change her mind down the line and have reconstruction, is is taking away that that control that you've got that little bit left. Yeah which I think when you've gone through that awful journey of when you've got no control is really really important at the end of it is and you you are you're taking your power back and it's like this my body this my choice and it's what I wanna do so, um yeah absolutely.

TEISHA: So how did you feel like when you wake up from the surgery and I think this is important to chat about because we talk about the decisions before a surgery for us mastectomies or whatever else it is for people. And then it's that moment when you by yourself you're waking up and it's like, and I know I'd like to look a little peek and I was like oh I don't know if I want to look and then I was like said no I don't want it yet. And next day, I looked and I'm like oh I'd already seen that so I spent the night imagining it being worse than what it was so how did you sort of cope with that?

LOUSIE: Yeah I think I think I've looked at quite a lot of pictures before I had the surgery so I kind of knew what it looked like and I've known in the past because of my health anxiety what mastectomy looks like because I used to always delve into all sorts of torturous things that I thought we might be tortuous. I kind of knew I was never it was not something that was shot by. I think what shocked me more than the actual looking at the mastectomy afterwards was when when I went into surgery and they drew the arrow did you have the arrow to show which breast? Now that made me feel really weird and I think that was just that was really because she said we have to make sure we're getting the right one obviously when they took the left uh yeah we were narrow down to it and that was just so like significant to me, of it was like, this was me and it's just an arrow this one of these taken off it was weird. Yeah if that was worse than seeing the scar or seeing that there was nothing there. Wow I think I've gotten into the idea it was going to be taken away. And once it was taken away it didn't matter what it looked like I was fine with that because I knew it was going to be flat closure I think you've ever been left with hanging skin or things like that would have been unhappy because I knew she was going to do it really flat to the chest. I kind of knew what that was going to look like so didn't really bother me it was the whole the arrow towards the breast and I think because it's diseased as well, half of you has become diseased.

TEISHA: Mhmm. Yeah it's not nice. 

LOUISE: It's not nice is it especially a breast. Yeah I mean I've got any party body's not to be diseased but I don't know if it's because it was in that way the perceptions of it being sexual, um you know that's thing in its disease and it was supposed to feed your babies and now it's diseased that kind of but the mastectomy didn't bother me it wasn't I never looked at them and went oh no, it was more what other people thought. It was more the pity that I didn't want which is why the marathon came into it because it's like, how can you pity someone who's running a marathon? It wasn't me it was what I thought oh god everyone feels sorry for me everyone even with the cancer I was like oh my god they're all feeling sorry for me everyone's thinks oh god she's got cancer oh my gosh she's got no boobs oh it wasn't ever what how I felt.

TEISHA: Yeah that's interesting and if that's how you're felt I'm sure lots of other women and men who'll go through this will as well. What was interesting when I was going through all of this, you know when the a group of nurses came around for handover, and it was like you know show us your wound and everything and at the time, there was the world championships of swimming going on.

LOUISE: Yeah.

TEISHA: And I said, I'm just flat chested like they are. I said they're powerful swimmers, and I said that's what I look like and at the end of it one of the nurse said well good luck with you swimming and I said no I don't like swimming. I said but I look like that now and it's that perception you know like you're doing with running you're looking powerful and you're taking that back, that power back and it's that perception now which is amazing. And I think what you touched on earlier as well is we're defined losing your breasts does I think bring into this whole of what defines you as a woman. You know and I think that's where the emotions can really come into play because it's like well, am I known longer a woman because I don't have breasts I mean I know that's not the case. Um but do you think that's where people struggle a little bit?

LOUISE: Yeah. I think so yeah I think that's a lot that's definitely where it comes from definitely. And like you said if you look at gymnastics, and swimmers like they're really like I just like you said no one's going oh if you're really sorry for us it'll be it's just very yeah I definitely think it's to do with that and also over time in the last sort of um fifty sixty years the breasts have it's not as I think in the eighties it was really bad wasn't it where it was all breast and cleavage and women are not and it's all been realized because they were never meant to be sexual they were meant to feed babies. And if you go back to light years ago women used to walk around with them and they weren't looked at in that way and I remember when I was doing my music degree and then I did um a dissertation on the back of pygmies, and they're like um, a group who live in the rainforest in Africa and they just walk around with a bit of running out and no one's looking at them and that and that's kind of how we were really supposed to be but obviously it's not like that and society's changed whether it's for good or bad but yeah so that that's what really made me angry because I was thinking, we've not only gone through breast cancer, but now we're having to fight the social norms of the society that's gone a little bit wrong with what breasts are and we're living with that as well. After going through that journey, we've also got this massive journey which is probably going to last the rest of our lives thanks very much and I was like oh I'm just not having this and it and it was a little bit like that because I remember the surgeon Anna she was she was a lady surgeon. She was lovely.

TEISHA: Mhmm.

LOUISE: And she said you need to have reconstruction. And I went, uh do I and she went yeah and I went why is that then and she said from the research, wasn't her opinion. From the research, your mental health will be negatively impacted in the long run if you don't. Thanks wow so as I go through invasive surgery, I've got to because I know a lot of it goes wrong I know a lot of people is does in the end then I don't want to implant. They're yeah they can cause all sorts of immunity problems. And I just thought I've got to through all that because of society. No I'm not doing that and that's when I thought right I think we need to change this because the rest of the world when I was checking all these sites that were feeling the same. Yeah, and I just felt like we were a little bit up we were a bit we weren't moving forward enough. There were just the odd little snippets on TV here and there about mastectomies. They would show something briefly, and then quickly move on, almost as if they were uncomfortable. I’d be left thinking, what are we doing? And then they have the tattoos which is great I love the fact people have tattoos but I still felt that was like covering it up. Making something prettier. And I thought they were beautiful in their own right because it saved my life. And so it was kind of like oh let's just get all that I'm we just get rid of that and move fully on and I'll run this marathon toppers and let's just forget all that snippets of it oh my god. It really got on my nerves.

TEISHA: Yeah that's amazing and you know it's courageous, but it's so important. I remember I was having my haircut post you know both boobs off and my hairdresser was saying that she saw an aunties scar years and years ago and she was sort of traumatised by it she said what happens if I end up looking like that with breast cancer and all and I'm like do you want to see my scar so I'm in the salon. Um like no one else is just by herself. And I lifted my top to show her and she's like oh oh and I said well you don't have to be worried, I said you will never get breast cancer you'll be fine but don't fear having a mastectomy, you know so yeah

LOUSIE: Oh that's brilliant doing that. And because what I thought with the mastectomy what I got scared of when I saw it on the telly years ago it was on Eastenders a show over here. Was the trauma on the woman's face not the scar. So she was looking in a mirror. This was about twenty-five years ago she was looking in the mirror. And oh my god she was so traumatised, I was literally like oh, crying I can understand that. Yeah but that it wasn't the scars that I wasn't looking at the scars I was looking at her reaction, and that's what I sensed with me with my daughter which is kind of why I started what I was doing as well because when I was open with Polyanna she was five and I was really open and quite happy with them she wasn't in the slightest bit traumatised, but I imagine if I had been traumatised and I didn't want to show it and then one day I was it may be a fake breast on going like this and she saw when I was like that would traumatise her yes. Yeah and that's what it is it's what you're passing on and I remember a few people when I started just running a year ago, said you're going to traumatise kids. I haven't seen one traumatised child because children take things as they are and they look your face and they think oh she's running around she's alright she's got no boobs and then they move on. Yep and and I'm not saying oh this is the the worst thing that's ever happened to me oh my god I'll never be a woman that would traumatise the child. And and and and I saw it in the London marathon as well. The children were just they were just thinking that was normal. 

TEISHA: Yeah that's great that's great and I think it's interesting being part of some of the I'm not part of many you know breast cancer groups or anything but there's some women who won't look at themselves in a mirror or won't like I've put all the, I'm doing actions again but I've put on all the um gels and you know bio oil and all of that to help the scars. And quite a few women are like no I can't do that and it's like, this part of my body has been through so much. It needs a bit of pampering. It needs some love, you know so to ignore it. I think that's not fair on what it's done for me and I know that sounds weird but I have that type of self-talk.

LOUISE: Yeah. That is brilliant that's exactly what I feel you just yeah that's so it's so nice to hear someone else talk about that because that is if you have a scar anywhere else you'd do the same you'd look after it you wouldn't just ignore it. And I think as well when you think I don't want to touch it I don't want to look at it it becomes even more detached to you doesn't it so it's never you're never gonna accept it I think the acceptance is the key. That's why when I felt that the urge to go out and run and show people in a sense of I I know you might not want to see this but you’re going to see it. Which I've got a lot of people say oh that's a little bit disrespectful and I've got at the moment you might think that but in the long run you'll see there's a reason for it I'm not just doing it to um, wind people up there's a reason that has to change. And I think that the acceptance for me was that if I didn't think other people wanted to see it, because they would be upset I think it's disrespectful. How on earth was I ever supposed to accept it myself? Yeah because if you think other people are going oh no I don't want to see that how am I supposed to look in the mirror and go oh yeah I love this. So it was kind of like well let's go out and see how much there is of that because there isn't actually that much. I think when I first started running topless, say on social media and you get your trolls on social media people would tell you wouldn't they? It was probably about eighty percent positive twenty percent negative. And the negativity wasn't bad negative it wasn't horrendous it was just the stigma. So in actual fact the stigma was only about twenty percen.  Which most women will probably think it's hundred percent in actual fact it was just a small amount and now that stigma is getting less and less because the more my social media comments are getting more and more positive so it's probably like ninety eight percent positive now as we've been moving and normalising it, so yeah I think that whole perception of oh no this is not no one's going to want to see this is not true as you think I mean you always make things bigger than you had don't you?

TEISHA: Yeah absolutely. And I think it's important for women or men going through breast cancer to see but I also like we were chatting about off air, um before in relation to partners, husbands, and friends and all for their reaction as well. And yeah. Because I was really surprised some of the nurses mentioned that and the surgeon you know some husbands are funny about the decision and want to go through with a lumpectomy as as opposed to having the full breast removed. And you think that that might be jeopardising your life and I'm so grateful for my partner, but when we were discussing it and probably the surgeon was pushing like you to have you know just the tumor taken out. And he said straight up to her you know Teish with her two boobs in an urn on the mantelpiece is no use to me, he's like chop them off. And yeah. And afterwards the same thing she said good call because it was larger than we thought you know and I might not have been able to get it all and I was like well it was a good call it was a right call yeah um but if I hadn't have had the supportive partner, maybe I wouldn't have made that call and maybe in five years time things wouldn't be good for me.

LOUISE: Yeah it's true it's very true because obviously your partners are very influential on the way you think. And my husband was similar to yours he was kind of like I'll just go with whatever you think. To be honest, I'd I wouldn't have asked his opinion. I was like well whether you think it's good or not I'm still doing it but he would he'd support me whatever in what I do yeah because he yeah he he kind of just goes along with it because yeah. But I have like you say heard many stories of men leaving their wives with their decision to go flat and I just think what is going on that's awful.  think it's definitely a big issue and in respect men to me with my journey and what I've done and the comments I get, men have gone up so much in my estimations as well because I've had so many comments of them saying how I've helped their wives, wish my mother would have seen this because obviously men are connected by sisters, wives, mothers so they're all it's affecting them as well. So yeah that hopefully I'm hoping that's a small minority now or it's getting smaller. With the with the husband and there is still comments like that like oh I remember Paul's boss he's very uh matter of fact in like he's I think his wife had a sort of boob job and I think he's very aboutb. And he did say oh oh she can have a free boob job on the NHS now. And I just went yeah.

TEISHA: And I think though the conversations what you're doing now is getting guys talking about it and I think that's important. When Andrew picked me up from the hospital after the second one went, you know it was a bit of sombre in car on the way home it was a bit emotional and I said oh I guess you can call me Tittless Teish now. And so that then was you know what we called me. So then he was away for the weekend up at our block, sitting around with some mates and his phone rang and it was me and he said, I said to them don't worry it's just Tittless Teish on the phone and he said they're all like you can't say that and he's like she named herself. And then they were laughing and chatting about it instead of me being self-conscious thinking how am I going to bring this up. So  what you're doing is amazing because guys can start normalising it as well and chat about it and I said I want you to talk about it with your friends because start that conversation in case their wife goes through it you know and it can support them. 

LOUISE: Yeah it's okay and is it one in seven women breast cancer I mean that's quite high numbers so someone's going to be affected down the line.

TEISHA: Yeah absolutely. And I guess they can do their small bits in terms of having those conversations but you bring it to a whole new level and that's a whole new level. It's unbelievable. Because I just think I've gone to walking around if it's hot on our property without my top and I think well that you know it feels great but I thought yeah you're doing that with everyone looking like are you a bit self conscious or like that first time you did it were you?

LOUSIE: on no no it was my test it was really um, no I wasn't I think what had happened on the on the cancer journey I think because I'd have had health anxiety for so long in my life I've been fearful of things and worried I was going to die and there was so much going on. I wasn't really living but the cancer turned all that around. And when I've gone into those uh, surgeon's office for results and whether it had spread and it hadn't spread but that waiting for that was the most frightening period in my life. And everything since then is nothing in comparison. So the whole running around topless is like no well it's like I've lost my fear of anything of judgment of um, like I have my tattoos done I've never had the tattoo before because I'm scared what people see and it's just like all that just goes out the window like you said you just suddenly go right we've got for now. And I remember when I'm thinking and waiting for the results thinking that it might have spread because the surgeon did think it had at one point um I remember thinking right if I die tomorrow, I've done good things in my life I've had kids I've got married I've been a teacher I've done these things. But what have I actually done what has actually empowered anybody and who's going to remember anything I've done that changed, and that was the reassurance I had in being connected to something bigger than just me um this little bubble around me, reassured me a little bit more about death. Yeah so the death wasn't an end it was like, if I die there's something that carries on that I've done. And and all kids do that and s but they are themselves they're not you they're not what you were they are them you can't live through your kids so it's kind of like I need it was kind of like seeking it because there's no rassurance in anything is there I mean once you've been through cancer you realise there isn't. It's all just a big aside of nothingness. Um and so the reassurance in that I had something that I was passing on and that kind of like why the whole running round and not being self-conscious. It wasn't it didn't even come into my mind it was like no this has to be done. And I actually felt empowered by being judged. The judgment made me feel alive because it made me feel like I was I wasn't invisible which obviously when you get to a certain age I've gone through menopause. Um I didn't have any breasts I was supposed to feel invisible because that's how you to feel as a woman when you're of certain age when you've got a man now I've got no breasts oh my god and might as well go over in that corner and hide. So in a way, being unsure for something that mattered really made me visible and made me feel really empowered because I was like actually no. I'm just totally pushing all these social norms that I am supposed to be living by over there and actually it's not true it's what you choose to be isn't it it doesn't matter what age you are you could be totally visible. So that was a little bit like that it was kind of like a bit like um, pushing against the system a bit.

TEISHA: Yeah yeah it was it was like felt quite rebellious. 

LOUISE: Yes that's very nice it was a nice feeling. 

TEISHA: Yeah and that must you know um set you up to feel that freedom and not worrying about what other people think then that goes into other parts of your life too. Did you get that as well?

LOUISE: Yeah yeah 

TEISHA: It does change change you you know and it sounds cliche, having MS definitely at a young age made you me made me seize opportunities and not live with regrets so that was amazing. But because you know I was diagnosed stage four from the beginning, it was, wow all of a sudden I've got to really consider my mortality and all of that as well. And that just changes your outlook. And it's true little things you think, I don't give a whatever about this that, what does it matter and you're right I don't care what people think. And it's, like if we can pass it on to other people so they don't have to go through something like cancer to get not feeling.  To say well life is short, you know and you have to think about think about your legacy. What are you going to be remembered for and for you to be remembered by someone who has embraced their difference, who's living authentically and empowering others to do the same. That's amazing. 

LOUISE: Yeah, if I if I die tomorrow, I'd be happy with that. And I can say that absolutely. Like it's funny because before I got cancer, my goal, my main goal because I had health anxiety was to be healthy and to get to a hundred safely. I remember thinking I was dying already in the sense that I wasn't going anywhere or travel I wouldn't go on an airplane in case it crashed. Um I just I got a germ phobia. I stopped my kids playing with other kids when they were young because this germ phobia my kids are both ADHD. One got Tourette’s and ADHD and and I was just living in this bubble and it was I mean I might as well have been dead to be honest. And then the cancer switched it, and I’ve jumped out of planes. We’ve gone on trips, and I’ve been like, look at this journey. Oh, what if it crashes? Well, whatever. It’s just so weird. It’s like the cancer switched something in me, like turning a switch from fear to thinking. I've got now and that's all I've got there's no tomorrow there's no next week. And a lot of Paul’s family find that hard they don't like it they think it's a silly way to live and I'm like I really hope you don't find out the way I found out that it actually isn't but I think some people just live the way they do. And that's fine but I just didn't like the judgement that I got because of the way that I live. And now um it's like you say it's passed over to other areas of my life so the authenticity in me and I've embraced my ADHD. I embraced my kid's ADHD I took my son out of school because they were punishing him for his ADHD symptoms and and I've had him home with me for six months we've gone out and so it empowered me to do that I would never have done that oh yeah I'd have been so worried about what was going to happen and in the future and now it's kind of like well I got that time with my son. He's thirteen.

When whatever got that time he was in school, and so it's kinda like yeah it's it's what works for you in that moment time isn't it you you like you understand it it's just it's totally empowering.

TEISHA: Yeah absolutely and I think people can be diagnosed with the same conditions, but your response defines your experience of that yeah and I think your testament to that because you are living authentically not worrying about what other people think and there's other women listening to this who are scared to go out you know who don't want to be shown or don’t want to go through with the surgery. And to get that message across is so important because we do we have such a short life and why and when you think it's ridiculous that we worry about what other people think and that stops you from living the life you should be living, that's absurd when you think about it.

LOUISE: It is it is absurd but at the time before you've realised that, it just feels so you feel boxed in don't you with with it all and then I and I definitely think it's with mortality to hit you in the face. Not changing because I remember thinking oh my god I'm going to die. Um, there's not all that came in that insignificance of did it really matter what people thought did it really matter that what have they actually done why have we been doing this and if I died, everyone had moved on and it'd all move on without it so what and then it just sort of smacks you really hard in the face doesn't it it's a really harsh teacher isn't it chop our boobs off and then we'll learn yeah and then we'll move. 

TEISHA: But it's true but it is it's so empowering and I think and what I actually say to other people as well is having MS having cancer makes us different so let's embrace that and have experiences we wouldn't be doing otherwise. So for me in my twenties, I left a secure job to travel overseas by myself because I thought you know, I can do that because I've got MS you know and I need to prioritise my health and well-being, staying in my stressful job won't do that so it gave me permission to live a life differently to what I assumed would be mine. So that sort of prepared me a bit for cancer I guess. And that's what you know you're doing as well and you're instilling that in your children as well which is amazing because they're not defined by their diagnosis.

LOUISE: Yeah I think that's really important as well especially like with with ADHD because it's still got there's still a lot to be a a lot of education to go on in schools but yeah I think that um like it was funny when I was talking to Oliver yesterday. Thirteen year old and we were going out we go out and about and we chat that stuff. And he because of his ADHD short-term memories, his short-term memory is not great but long-term memory is brilliant. And we were talking and he loves the fact I do topless marathon running and he and we've been he actually does a lot of my little videos, the funny videos that I didn't mind he's got really involved with it. And uh and I remember saying something about the cancer and he went oh god. I totally forgot you had cancer and said that's right that's right? I go topless, and I asked him, "Why do you think that is?" He went, "I don't know, I just forgot." So I asked, "What was the significance of me running around topless with no boobs?" And he said, "Well, I remember that because you do it all the time." And it was so brilliant because I thought, oh my god, it wasn't traumatic for him. I asked, "Did you never worry that I was going to die?" because obviously, I talked to him about it. He said, "No, I didn't." And yet he can worry about really simple things, like if the dog is going to die, and he gets really stressed about it. But with the cancer, he wasn't worried because it was a long-term issue, not something that would happen straight away. He worries about things that happen immediately, but since he had time to think about the cancer, it didn't bother him as much. I just thought, how amazing is that? He's forgotten I had cancer, and he's only twelve.

TEISHA: Yep.

LOUISE: And I just thought wow. That's amazing. 

TEISHA: And that comes down to you as well, you know because a lot of people and you know there's some amazing support groups out there but a lot there's other ones where people are defined by their illness. And I think that really stops you from moving forward sometimes because I'm happy if people forget I've got cancer or MS because it's like good you're not seeing a disease you see me.

LOUISE: Yeah yeah definitely. And that's brilliant and especially with a with a a young person, especially with your son because you'd think that might be traumatic but and I haven't asked Polyama she's seven.

TEISHA: Mhmm.

LOUISE: And she never really good on about it I mean when I'm running around topless it's normal to her. Is totally normal. I think they'd find it weird if I run out with the top On to them.

TEISHA: Yeah and they probably would find it more traumatic if you ran with your boobs out and topless. You know your  thirteen year old boy is like mum! 

LOUISE: So I find it really interesting. I I love I've always loved sort of challenging things and and analysing stuff and I feel like I've become this guinea pig of analyser, of myself. And I find it real I just love it because I'm all that's I think everybody wants to do that though that they want to find out things and um it's just a really lovely way to do it because I always love running, well, not always but I ran for my mental health because obviously that helped with the health anxiety. So having been able to do something really good for other people and get the running out of it and get the freedom out of it there's so many good things that I do it's not like a it's not like a chore I love doing it. Yeah so everything positive about there's nothing negative about running. And then running topless is freeing empowering others. Spreading it's all just brilliant.

TEISHA: Yeah it's what you're you're meant to be here to do.

LOUISE: Yeah I think I think I think I think it is it's one of the only times I feel totally authentic myself, especially when you're out and about in nature.

TEISHA: Mhmm.

LOUISE: And there's something about being topless in nature as well with the breezes on your chest and you're running and the trees and all this breeze and then and then you kind of see other people with the tops and the and they and you look at them and they look and you feel like they are harnessed in. but yeah it is it is really freeing.

TEISHA: I remember, you know not that long after the mastectomy I was cooking in the kitchen and I was topless because it was really hot and I thought oh I can be and Andrew's like I've been asking you to do this for years and now you have them chopped off and now you're topless and I said but it's more comfortable now I said it wasn't before. 

LOUISE: No. It's funny because when you are like, flat and then it seems quite absurd to think that you used to have to put a harness on really that's what a bra is isn't it yeah to hold up these mounds of flesh. It seems really weird it's like I suppose you go back to that childlike stare of because I suppose when you're nine you couldn't imagine having to wear this thing to hold these things up and that's kind of what you're doing isn't it it's more constant. Because there's no other reason why well there is obviously in society wouldn't wouldn't be around with but it's for the comfort. So when you haven't got that and you're not putting bras on it's great. 

TEISHA: Yeah and as we said earlier we're going to be the envy of all women in a nursing home years to come picking up our boobs from our you know our laps. 

LOUISE: It was funny as well because when I was younger, my breasts were really small, so I didn't even wear bras. I remember people saying, "Oh, when you're older, they’re going to be around your ankles." And I was like, "Well, do I care?" But I hadn’t even thought about it. It was funny because when I started to age, they did start to sag a bit—not to my ankles, but you know, they do sag over time. And I think aging does that to you. It was just really funny that I didn’t have to experience that whole sagging process in a significant way, not having to deal with that with my breasts.

TEISHA: yeah that's right that's right so looking forward what's you know the the next challenge well I I sort of ask this but I did see a video on your Instagram account saying you've signed up to something and I was like well

LOUISE: yeah yeah so I'm what I'm thinking is this is year so I haven't actually filled in the form but I am going to do the ultra. And I'm this year I've got triathlon in nine weeks triathlon.

TEISHA: Wow.

LOUISE: Yeah, I know, but it's a small triathlon. It's not the Olympic triathlon. It’s a 750-meter ocean swim, 25 miles on a bike, and a 5-kilometer run. So, it’s not the Olympic one because I’m not going to do that. After that, I’ve got another marathon, which is the local marathon in October. And then I’m doing a topless swim in November, which is a charity event. I do a lot for my charity here, which is a hospital charity, and this has become a ticketed event. It's about body positivity in women for all sorts of reasons. We go onto this private beach, and we can be topless or take a dip. It’s that kind of empowerment.

I was thinking I have to have something to aim towards that’s bigger than what I’ve done before. I’ve done four marathons now, and I struggle at the end with sickness. I get sick, but I can do them. I just want to push myself a little bit more. An ultra can be anything over 26.2 miles, so I suppose you could do 32 miles. It’s horrendous getting to 26.2, so doing more would be even more horrendous. I want to push my limits and see how far I can handle discomfort. I think that’s what it is; I like the uncomfortable challenge.

When I was trying to be comfortable, I became insular and very scared. When I tried to embrace the old-school discomfort, I gained confidence. If I can be uncomfortable in one area, I can be uncomfortable here. So yeah, that’s the next goal. That’s going to be next year. I’m just narrowing it down to three that I might do. They’re usually trail ultras, more running up hills and cross-country, which is way out of my comfort zone. So, it’s going to be next year because there’s no way I could do that this year.

TEISHA: No no you need something for 2025 so that's that's amazing. 

LOUISE: I always I think as well like, when you've been through a diagnosis you do I don't plan plan anymore it's kind of in the moment. I have to have something to work towards if I'm left not knowing that that's when my brain starts to ruminate so I kind of like, it's got to be something so that'll be next year but yeah I'll do that topless as well because most things I do now like that uh, with the topless team to show the power and strength.

TEISHA: Yeah absolutely it's a great message and I think even what you're saying now is when we do push ourselves out of our comfort zone that is when we learn and grow and learn about ourselves and challenge ourselves so I think it's a great filled with so many good messages for everyone Louise. It's great it's funny.

LOUISE: Yeah it's funny where that came from though isn't it. It came from a trauma. 

TEISHA: Yeah. Yeah yeah that's and that's another good um, talking point as well maybe we'll do another episode but um the trauma of what we go through so even though you're embracing what's happening and all as well it's not minimising it's full on what we've been through you know so and I mentioned earlier you know I lost my voice for twelve months and I think it's the trauma. And that was the only time I actually thought oh okay what I've been through is traumatic because I think you just push yourself and think well you know that's fine I've had my body parts chopped off and it's all fine but it is traumatic you know we've been through a lot.

LOUISE: Yeah, and that’s the thing. Like you say, I try to stay positive because I don’t want to spread negativity, but it wasn’t like that the day after I got diagnosed. It’s not like I just swam through the whole diagnosis. It was horrendous. Being diagnosed turned me into a shadow of my former self. It took ages to get to the point where I was able to accept what I’d become. It took a lot of work. I didn’t want to get too positive and give the impression that I found it really easy, making people who are struggling feel like, "Why am I not finding it easy if she is?" It wasn’t easy, and it isn’t. It’s really, really hard.

TEISHA: Yeah and I did an episode on an authentic mindset because I think sometimes we shy away of those authentic emotions and think well if I'm really scared or upset that means I'm being negative, whereas I think you can be authentic but still have a positive outlook and demeanour. And that's what just meeting you tonight um, shows me you know you've got this positive outlook, but you're still authentic to your feelings and you know you feel them. But gosh once you feel them and go sometimes into those dark places, then the light places is you know you embrace them even more you have this new appreciation for life definitely.

LOUISE: Yeah, the darkness really gets to you. When I was in those dark places and then I came out, the tiniest things became joyous. Like, we have pink roses, and I smelled them and really took notice of them. I’ve read all this stuff before, about appreciating the small things, but it took experiencing it to really understand.

I used to read stories like what has happened to me and think, "How would I cope?" It’s cliché to say that small things make a difference, but they really do. I live by that now because I find myself less stressed.

When I was stressed about all the things that might happen in the future, it was overwhelming. Living in the future was so stressful. I think with ADHD, you can’t live like that; you have to live in the moment. It took cancer to teach me that. I was always worried about what might happen next week or worst-case scenarios. But cancer taught me to be in the moment, and that’s when I became less stressed with life. As long as you’re here now, in this moment, nothing else really matters.

TEISHA: And that's really interesting as well because lots of people listening will have one illness, but that doesn't make you immune from getting another condition so you're you know balancing and what I've found as well is and it sounds like for you, breast cancer has taught me more how to deal with MS. You know I was embracing flat chested but I didn't want to use a walker to help me exercise. And I think how ridiculous is that I don't care what people think about me having no boobs but I thought yeah what would they think me using a walker and it's like wow. This is crazy so me as, you know a forty nine year old with breast cancer taught me you know to unpackage that and embrace my difference so, you know my legs aren’t great. And my chest doesn't look normal but that's okay doesn't matter you know I want to embrace life.

LOUISE: Yeah and that's what counts that's all that counts. 

TEISHA: Yeah absolutely. Well we could talk for ages I don't even know what this is recording and it's oh forgotten I've forgotten we've been recording. That's love that's what I love about social media and all is all the sudden we get to connect. And I loved your story, and um, that's why I shared it with um you know some followers more because it so empowering. And, yeah to have that message and if it helps those going through breast cancer that's incredible. But also listeners with other conditions to be able to be empowered by your decisions and take control so we're not defined by yeah. Whatever cancer or whatever else has done to our bodies and to love our bodies. You know it doesn't matter that they're not perfect put that moisturise on your chest don't be afraid to look at yourself in the mirror you know just just embrace that. Um but before we go, how can we connect with you? Um, because I love your Instagram account so what is that and I'll put it on the show notes as well so people can.

LOUISE: Yeah so my Instagram is @louisebutcher39. 

TEISHA: Okay so @louisebutcher39.

LOUISE:  And I have Facebook which is @Louise_Bernadette_Butcher. 

TEISHA: Okay. I'll put both of them. 

LOUISE: Yeah. I think the tick tock account is is is on one of those accounts. Think that's Louise Bernadette b. The TikTok account because I post on TikTok as well because obviously TikTok sometimes is the younger generation so I really like that yeah yeah and that to be honest really does really well so that that's brilliant because it's going down the generations which is exactly what it needs to do.

TEISHA: It does because it brings a whole new level doesn't it when you're in your twenties or thirties going through this as well um, yeah you're not as sure of yourself um, at that time and might be not with your partner at that time so it brings a whole new. Yeah. It's totally different. I think in the in your twenties and thirties you're probably going to have a different mindset about it so it's really good pattern. Fantastic. The positive side. 

TEISHA Yeah so no excellent so thank you so much for your time thank you for all you are doing um, yeah as I said I was just drawn to your energy and I I wished you lived around the corner because I I could follow in my um little car as you run around. 

LOUISE: Yeah but you're not talking around the corner you live thousands of migrants away it's really weird isn't it it's so weird when you see each other in your life. Just can't get my head around the whole how far away. 

TEISHA: I know but how good is that like I just I absolutely love it so yeah so thank you Louise and we will be in contact, I'm sure but as I said I'll put all your details on the show notes. And I'll be also tagging you on Hurdle to Hope Instagram as well. Um so yeah we'll we'll get the message there so thank you.

LOUISE:  Well thank you Teisha.

CONCLUSION

Wow. I really hope you enjoyed that chat. Louise is such a gorgeous person. I'll put in the links to her Instagram account. If you want a smile on your face every day, follow Louise on Instagram. It's amazing. I chuckle, I laugh out loud all the time because even today she had a post about being topless on a ride at a carnival. She’s so amazing and she brings such joy to the world, and I can't wait to do another episode with Louise because her insights are incredible. We need more Louises in this world because we are all going through different challenges with our illnesses. But like Louise, let's embrace life. Let's still find things to laugh about. Let's have fun. Let's make the most of our opportunities.

So next week I'll unpack a bit more about this episode because we covered so much. Also, if you haven't already, listen to episode three of Wellbeing Interrupted. This covers what Louise and I were chatting about in relation to our mindset. The episode is called "Your Mindset is Everything," and I really talk about not just having a positive mindset, but the importance of being authentic. Then if you want to catch up on some old episodes as well, Louise and I also chatted about trauma and the impact of trauma when you're dealing with a health challenge. Episode thirteen, "Chronic Illness Trauma," I talk about three steps to protect your physical well-being when dealing with trauma in relation to your illness. So that's another good episode to catch up on.

Okay, that's it from me. Have a great week and I can't wait to chat with you some more. Bye