Master The Inbox

Your sales funnel isn't a tech problem, it's a conversation problem

• Monica Badiu • Season 3 • Episode 4

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 28:33

If you've been treating your sales funnel like a tech problem — obsessing over pages, buttons, email sequences, and automation triggers — you've missed the entire point.


Funnels aren't about software and they never were. In this episode of Master the Inbox, I take you on a journey from 1898 Philadelphia (where the AIDA framework was born) to a potato field in Idaho, to a movie theater concession stand in Chicago — to show you what funnels actually are: decision architecture.

The best funnels I've seen are not designed to simply extract money. They're designed to reduce the cognitive load of saying yes and guide people through a conversation, not a sales pitch. And they work because they're helpful — not because they're clever.

You'll learn:

  • Why Elias St. Elmo Lewis's 1898 framework still matters (and where modern marketers lost the plot)
  • The real reason Russell Brunson's potato gun funnel worked — and it wasn't the upsell
  • How movie theater popcorn sizes reveal the psychology of friction in decision-making
  • Why most course creators are asking for one giant, high-pressure decision (and leaving money on the table)
  • What the grocery store checkout line teaches us about cognitive load and buying mode
  • How to structure order bumps and upsells as helpful next steps, not aggressive add-ons
  • Why your squeeze page sets the tone for your entire funnel (and how most people get this wrong)

If you've been building funnels and they're just not converting — this episode will help you see where the breakdown is happening. And it's probably not where you think.

Hi. And welcome.
My name is Monica Badiu. I am a marketing consultant turned conversion copywriter and copy coach. I help online course creators and info product businesses sell more through persuasive, non-spammy, no fluff copywriting.

I teach about copywriting, digital marketing, and conversion strategies tested in my businesses and with my clients.

Other links:

It's 1898 Philadelphia. The air outside is stick with the soot of the industry, and in this era, a man named Elias St. Almo Lewis is teaching a course on advertising. When advertising is still seen as snake hole pedaling a chaotic, loud shouting match where the loudest voice wins. Lewis is formulating a new way to think about the buying process, and he boils it down to a sequence, attract attention, maintain interest, create desire, and finally get action. Without knowing it. Or maybe he did. Lewis has just articulated the blueprint for the next century of commerce. He didn't call it a funnel yet. But he had mapped the invisible physics of a decision. He understood that you cannot ask a stranger for their money before you have their attention.

He had charted [00:01:00] the buying process, not as a transaction, but as a journey.

Fast forward more than a hundred years, and we are still obsessed with that framework. But somewhere along the way, we lost the plot. We stopped looking at the psychology. Louis was trying to map, and we started staring at the tools we used to build it. We started obsessing over the pages, the buttons, the email sequences, and the automation triggers.

We started calling it tech. But if you peel back the layers of code and software, a sales funnel isn't about tech at all. It never was. It is and always has been about architecture, specifically the architecture of decision making. It is about answering a question that every potential buyer is asking themselves.

So what do I do now?

Today we're going to look at why funnels fail when they're treated as tech stacks, and why they succeed when they're treated as conversations. [00:02:00] We're going to travel from that course in Philadelphia to a potato field in Idaho. And then to a movie theater concession Stand in Chicago. To understand why the best funnels aren't designed to extract money, they're designed to reduce a cognitive load of saying yes.

This is Monica Badiu. I'm your host at Master the Inbox. I'm a conversion copywriter, entrepreneur and business coach, and after many, many years strategizing and writing sales campaigns, I realized most brands don't understand what it means to sell, which is why this season is about reframing selling as a conversation, not a monologue. And today's episode, we'll have a slightly different tone from what I'd normally do. But I think it's worth diving into the history of [00:03:00] some of the concepts we use in marketing. So if you've ever assumed funnels are only for people with ads, big audiences, or multiple products, this episode is for you because today we're going to talk about why funnels aren't really about tech or templates, but about designing better buying decisions.

So let's start with a story that sounds like it should be about farming, but it's actually about the birth of the modern digital funnel. It's the early two thousands. The internet is young, clumsy. In Boise Idaho, a college wrestler named Russell Brunson is sitting in front of a computer staring at the problem.

Russell isn't trying to launch a softer empire yet. Yes, I'm talking about ClickFunnels. He's just a kid who likes building potato guns. Those PVC pipe contraptions that use hairspray to launch spots across the field, he and a friend had gone out to the middle of nowhere, filmed themselves shooting potatoes [00:04:00] and burned the food each onto a DVD.

Remember those? He sets up a simple website to sell it. He buys Google ads for the keywords like potato gun plans. At first, it works. He is spending a few dollars a day on ads and selling the DVD for $37 and he's profitable, but then the digital landscape shifts. Google updates its algorithm, and the cost of clicks skyrocket.

Suddenly it's costing him around $50 in ads just to sell a single $37 DVD. The math is broken and the business flops. Most people would have blamed the tech. They would have blamed Google. They would have tried to tweak the website or change the headline color. But Branson didn't do that because he realized the problem was in the traffic.

It was the structure of the offer. So he thought about what happened after someone bought the DVD. The customer had the information, but they didn't have the materials. They still had to drive to the hardware store, buy the [00:05:00] PVC pipes. They igniter the glue. So Brunson added a step immediately after someone bought the DVD before they left the site.

He offered them a potato gun kit. All the physical supplies shipped to their door. The result was immediate. And while he didn't convert everyone, he converted enough people that his average order of value jumped from $37 to offer a hundred dollars. He could now afford to spend $50 on ads and still double his money.

So he didn't change the technology. He had just changed the decision architecture. Now, this is a moment a lot of people are missing when thinking about their funnels. You could think that a funnel is just like a mechanism to trap people so they can see more of your offers. But in reality, if we look at Brunson's funnel it actually worked because it was helpful. The person who bought the DVD wanted the PVC pipes. By offering them right then and [00:06:00] there. He wasn't interrupting the buyer experience. He was helping them complete the journey they had already started.

I think it's important to. Make a note here. So a funnel, and I keep saying this isn't just a random series of webpages, like you throw in all the offers you have. Yes. You are asking for a yes every time, and then a slightly bigger yes, as they proceed into your funnel, and then maybe a bigger commitment, but to actually understand how this works and the psychology of going from a simple yes to a big yes we are going to talk about a movie theater in Chicago. David Wallerstein is working with the Balaban and Katz Theater Chain. He's watching people in the lobby. He notices something peculiar. Customers buy a bag of popcorn and a soda. They finish the popcorn before the movie is even halfway over. And he thinks they clearly want more, but they almost never [00:07:00] go back to the counter to buy a second bag.

Why? Well, he thought it's a psychological barrier. Buying two bags of popcorn looked too much. It felt shameful. So the decision to walk back to the counter waiting line again, and Ian was too much fiction, both social and physical. So Wallerstein had an idea. What if he just made the bag bigger? So he introduces larger sizes, two quart buckets for popcorn, and 64 ounce cups for drinks.

The cost to the theater was negligible. Popcorn is mostly air and pennies, but the customers loved it. They could buy the amount they actually wanted without the shame of buying two. Wallerstein was eventually hired to McDonald's board of Directors, and he pitched the same idea to Ray Crock. Crock was skeptical at first.

He said If people want more fries, they can just buy two bags. But Wallerstein insisted he knew from his theater days that the friction of the second decision was the killer. He introduced larger sizes to the menu and [00:08:00] sales exploded. Want fries with that small, medium, extra large?

So this is not about tricking someone into buying fries they don't want. It's really about recognizing that once someone has decided to eat lunch, the question would you like fries with that is actually helpful. It saves them the mental energy of having to decide later.

Now, this is exactly what is missing when I talk to course creators, consultants, and coaches who are struggling to scale their online businesses, they usually have a single product, a single landing page, one buy now button, or enroll here on a sales page. They are asking their customer to make one giant high pressure decision. And if the answer is no, that's where the conversation ends.

It's like Ray Crock refusing to offer a large fry. You're leaving money on the table and it's not because your product is bad, but because the structure you are offering in it is rigid. So think about the last time you were in a grocery store checkout line. [00:09:00] You've done your shopping, you've made the hundred micro decisions, which pasta sauce, which bread Organic quit.

Fatigue and you are probably feeling mentally depleted. And there right at the register are the gum, the magazines, and the candy bars. Low stakes, low cost, high reward. So you throw a pack of gum on the belt. Why? Because the hard work is done. You are already in buying mode. And the decision to spend $2 on gum requires almost zero cognitive load compared to the decision to spend $200 on groceries.

Now, obviously this implies the perspective of you being aware of the fact that you were actually thinking or needing to buy gum. And I know there are so many guru marketing hacks and amazing funnel strategies, and I really don't want you to think that the only way you can use a sales funnel to [00:10:00] create a buying journey and guide your audience through that journey has to be aggressive and salesy and all of that.

My whole career is about shifting how people perceive promotions, how people perceive selling, how people can actually use marketing to provide value to their customers. So this isn't about just cramming down more offers. This is really about identifying the things, the, courses, the elements that your client actually needs to achieve, the desire to achieve the solution, to solve the problem came in there in the first place, and I don't know about you, but usually when I go to the grocery store, especially if I have my daughter with me, it's a very stressful experience. 'cause I have to hold in my mind all the different possibilities for what we're going to [00:11:00] eat and what we actually need in the store.

So by the time I actually go to the registry, I'm thinking, okay, what did I forget? What are the minimal things I need? Now here in Romania, what we see at the cash registry is more than that, but they kind of know I'm probably thirsty, so there's something to buy. quench my thirst. I'm probably hungry and there's something sweet to pick me up. And then there are all these tiny things like Kleenex, like, sanitizer, maybe shaving stuff, all those different things. The small things that you might have forgotten, and I want you to understand that this is the actual distinction we are going for.

Not just to randomly show things that would make people want them, but to remind people, Hey, did you get everything? Hey, you probably feeling like this. Do you need this? That's what we are going for.

Now a good sales [00:12:00] funnel replicates this dynamic and when a course creator adds a simple order bump, say a $27 template pack attached to a main course, they're essentially putting the pack of gum on the checkout register. They are saying, since you are already here and you are already committed to solving this problem, this usually makes it easier for the people who get this course.

I've seen this change businesses overnight. Last year I worked with a creator and we added a simple tripwire funnel. And this wasn't a low price offer, it really was about changing the relationship and changing the ascension path from subscriber to becoming a student. So what we did, we created a tripwire funnel, which for a tripwire funnel is actually a big investment, $97, and that was kind of the middle point in between free to ascending to a higher priced [00:13:00] offer. So that funnel is generating around $12,000 a year for this creator on autopilot. Obviously it could be scaled. It could be optimized, it could generate more, but the money is not the big picture here. The real value is that he is actually creating a buyer journey from the beginning, and another problem this is solving is that many people sign up for freebies online and then they very rarely buy something, which is very annoying and kind of demoralizing for many of the creators I have talked with. They have this huge email list, huge email list. And because they're selling infrequently or when they do, they have a launch with a big price or a Black Friday discount, their email list isn't really reacting that well.

Now let me tell you about another example. [00:14:00] So I wrote the sales page for a course creator, and that was a few years ago. That turned into $5 million in revenue in the course of a few years, and it wasn't just that first offer, it was an order bump, it was an upsell.

Now if the funnel wasn't really having a conversation, a real conversation with the people who are looking at those offers and thinking, okay, so I have this problem, i'm looking for a solution. How can you help me? What can I do? That sales page and that funnel would not have generated 5 million in revenue. And another interesting thing, funnels aren't permanent. Your audience sometimes changes, and that is fine. They need something else, or you come into a different insight of what your audience wants, or you finally have a different offer to use, either as the [00:15:00] front end offer, as an order bump, or as the upsell.

So don't get to touch the fact that, oh, I have this funnel. This is the only way it's going to work for the entire life. No test different things because you never really know unless you test. And for this 5 million funnel we've been actually testing different positioning for the front end offer, different order bumps, different copy for the order bombs.

And what was really interesting was when we changed the upsell, the upsell was a completely different offer to what they were offering before. Same price, not the same amount of stuff. So reducing overwhelm and actually making the commitment even more clear. And what we did, and I think that was the most successful thing, is that we did reduce the overwhelm in making a decision by simply stating how that new offer was actually fitting into the journey of where the audience [00:16:00] was at.

Initially, even though the first upsell was quite successful, I think it simply asked people to think too much into the future. It gave them too many options. So by reducing the friction, by reducing the options, and by telling them you don't need to have everything, you only need to have these next three things.

I think that's a very important aspect to consider when constructing your sales funnels.

So it really matters how you start that conversation and what you tell them down the line. Because it's not just like, Hey, buy this. It's okay. You have this problem, here's what can solve it, and then you go to the checkout page and the checkout page says, okay, you now have this for this specific problem, but sometimes this other thing can show up.

If you want, you can get this and shortcut the problem, the anxiety, the whatever. [00:17:00] And then you have the upsell that says, okay, so you have covered problem one and problem two, which is great. You are already making so much progress. This is gonna help you. However, if you want to accelerate your results, if you want to solve for problem three, which eventually appears, here's what you can do.

So this is the whole idea of selling as a conversation in funnels. You're not just randomly assigning offers into that funnel. You're not just randomly putting decisions in front of your audience. You really need to treat it like a conversation. And you need to realize that quiz page, that opt-in page where you ask for an email is literally just a handshake.

It's an introduction.

It's literally just step one. So if you, if we go back the story with Elia St. Elmo and his IDA Funnel, he [00:18:00] starts with attract attention. I can tell you that in my experience, most people stop there with their funnels. They just focus a lot on attracting attention. They get lots of email addresses. They get lots of clicks, lots of lots of traffic volume.

But then when it comes to maintaining interest, uh, creating desire down the funnel, solving problems, if you wanna shift it to a more ethical perspective and get, be able to take action, there's not much going there. And probably it's because of the conversation we've been having over so many, many years.

We put so much focus on getting traffic. And don't get me wrong, we need traffic. If we don't have leads coming in. We don't really have a business, but that's just the entry point. What happens down the line in that funnel is actually a conversation you need to maintain, to nurture and improve down the [00:19:00] line.

And even that squeeze page, that opt. That first ask you put in front of your audience, that kind of sets the tone for what's happening through the sales funnel. So every disconnect in your funnel interrupts that conversation and it turns it into a monologue. And when you do that, you're basically letting your potential buyer, figuring it all out on their own, and they're doing it from.

Their own fears, limitations, little knowledge of the subject, what they think it's possible or not possible, the expectations they carry with them and of themselves, the reputation they know you have, or the lack of information about who you are. So simply relying on. The tech to do its job and you just putting some offers because you, that's what you have [00:20:00] is at most a very decent first draft.

Sometimes it works. I've seen ugly work. I've seen. Many different things work, but sometimes it's really just a struck of luck that you are getting traffic and that traffic is buying. And when you actually start to dive in and look at every step in your funnel from a strategic perspective that is grounded in who is this person who is entering my funnel?

What is the conversation they're having with themselves right now? What brought them here? What's keeping them stuck? What can I do to help them get unstuck? Not buy, help them get unstuck. You are here to provide value. You are here to provide the solution. That's a very essential aspect of understanding this ethical perspective of selling.

I think [00:21:00] we've been doing this for a long time. Simply creating products and using all these different tactics to get people to buy. I think we need to make a change in how we relate to our audiences. These are people we serve. These are people that, yes, they're buying things from us, but down the line, we need to respect them and understand that we are here to help them.

This is essential. I would even go as far and say, if you're in a, just to make money, and if you're looking for tactics that will help you make money overnight, maybe aggressive tactics exploiting and maybe using fear mongering, I would say please stop listening to this podcast. I don't want you here.

This is not about that. If, however, you have been doing this because this is what everybody is doing and you know deep down that there must be a different way, [00:22:00] please keep listening. Share this episode, share the podcast, talk about it. Send me a message, send me an email, ask me about it. I know it's really difficult.

To believe that something like this can work, and it's not rocket science. I keep saying this. I did not invent this. This is basically the customer centric framework, which I've been talking about for a long time, and it's very opposite to the product marketing framework where we have a product and we're going to promote the hell outta that product to get as many people to buy.

That's not where I'm going, and I hope you can see that and I hope it feels inspiring and I hope it shows you that if you've been feeling icky about the current sales models, if you've been feeling this deep. Deep inside you that there has to be a better way. I don't wanna annoy my audience. I've been working [00:23:00] so hard to build this business, especially if you're a teacher, right?

Course creators, most of them, they're in it because they wanna teach people, and marketing doesn't come in naturally. And I know that if you go online and you search for how to sell my course online, a lot of it feels like it's too much. And yes. That's true, especially if you come into this without realizing that there's more than one solution to solving a problem.

And I'm not saying this like what I'm talking about here. This might not be the solution for you. It's not gonna solve all of your problems. I obviously don't know your business. I have no idea what's going on, but I'm just putting this out there, and I think it's important to have a conversation about how we can do things differently in terms of has this actually worked?

Yes. Otherwise, I would not have the guts to come and talk about this. And I've been doing this for a few [00:24:00] years and I've seen this approach completely transform businesses and not burning email lists and actually increasing the connection a brand has with your audience. You might not make money all the time, like huge amount in revenue in your bank with this approach, but at the end of the year when you focus on.

Understanding your audience, understanding what they're going through, what are the problems, and you are leading with a conversation you are. Not forcing their hand and saying, oh, buy my course. It's gonna solve all your, all of your problems. You're telling them, look, this course works for people who do this and this and this.

If you're thinking about joining, here's what you need to know if you are in this. Part of your life and you can't really commit to implementing what we teach, maybe you should wait. That's the kind of conversation I'm talking about other times. It's [00:25:00] simply about the fact that you know, your audience is resistant to change, and that's basically everyone.

And you just have coaching emails that tackle that specific fear. And it does not fearmongering. It's really making them aware. Okay, so you've seen my emails. You know we have an open car right now. You are still wondering, will like succeed do this? Is this for me? Well, let's talk about it. What's actually keeping you stuck?

Are you afraid of losing your money? We have a money back guarantee. Here's what we do. Okay? What if that period expires and you still haven't achieved your result? Well, we have a satisfaction guarantee. We have a, we'll work with you until you get your result guarantee. It's really up to you to understand what's keeping your audience stuck, and then identifying ways to be empathetic and compassionate about leading them down the way where they overcome that and they actually go on the other side of [00:26:00] fear and they experience what it would be like to not have that problem anymore and they experience what it would be like to be courageous and they experience what it's like to be heard.

And seen and appreciated as they are where they are instead of always being pushed into buy the stuff 'cause it's whatever. So that's where I'm going with this. It might not be for everybody and I think that is fine.

So today we have been looking a little bit at how not to treat funnels just like tech stacks and how to think about them as conversations. And obviously this is a topic that I can't really fit into what, 20, 30 minutes of a podcast episode, which is why this entire year in season three of Master the Inbox is about getting a better understanding of how we can sell our offers online. Now, I specifically [00:27:00] work with course creators, coaches, and consultants. But if you're interested in reframing how you see selling, please keep listening. I think it's gonna be important to see what else is possible. Now, over the next few episodes, I'll have guests coming here and they'll be talking about other ways of selling Evergreen webinars, live launches, Jeff Walker style launch, selling through Facebook, selling through dms, selling through ads. We're gonna talk to people and specialists and other course creators who are using all these different ways of selling, and my hope is that by the end of this year, will be a little bit more knowledgeable about what we can do to choose a sales environment, helps truly, truly helps our audience.

And obviously is also great for conversion. So this is it for today. I hope you found this episode of Master the Inbox valuable, and if you did, [00:28:00] please subscribe. Leave a review or share the episode with someone who is trying to figure out how do I actually monetize my audience in a way that is ethical and effective. It really helps more people find the show. And in the next episode we'll continue this conversation about selling. So thanks again for being here, and I'll see you in the next episode.