Black Friday Tips: a discount isn’t your best selling point with Charlotte Sargeant

A bigger Black Friday discount won’t tell your audience why your course is worth buying. Monica Badiu and Charlotte “Charlie” Sargeant, founder of The Creative Strategy Lab, unpack the customer research that helps you build a more relevant offer. You’ll learn to identify buying motivations beyond price, turn customer language into messaging, and test your positioning through email before your promotion starts. For course creators, coaches, and consultants who want a stronger reason to buy than “70% off.”

Episode Summary

Choosing your Black Friday discount is easier than working out what would make someone want your offer. In this conversation, Monica and Charlie explore buyer identity, speed, convenience, and desired outcomes—and explain how testimonials, sales conversations, and email surveys can help you decide what to sell and how to position it.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• Following competitors into deeper discounts can attract buyers whose main reason to return is another price cut.
• Your Black Friday course offer competes for the same budget as purchases outside your industry.
• Buyers at beginner, intermediate, and advanced levels need messaging that reflects their specific challenges and confidence.
• A faster route or a done-with-you option can appeal to customers who value convenience more than a lower price.
• Testimonials, Reddit discussions, social comments, DMs, and sales call notes reveal language you can use to explain your offer’s value.
• Counting recurring customer problems gives you a starting point for testing messaging instead of choosing an angle on instinct.
• Monica’s two-step email research process connects audience struggles and future goals to the offer she plans to promote.

Key Takeaway

Before writing your next promotional email, spend 10 minutes reading five customer replies or testimonials. Note one problem that appears more than once, keep the customer’s wording, and identify which part of your offer addresses it. Use that connection to draft your opening paragraph before you mention the discount.

About the Guest

Charlotte “Charlie” Sargeant began in paid social and moved into creative strategy as customer insight and ad messaging became a bigger part of her work. Her agency leadership experience included overseeing creative strategy across more than £22 million in annual ad spend. She founded The Creative Strategy Lab, where she helps marketers use customer research to shape messaging and offers.

Connect with Charlotte on LinkedIn or visit The Creative Strategy Lab for her work and newsletter.

Resources Mentioned

• Build your campaign with the Black Friday podcast season
• Charlotte Sargeant on LinkedIn
• The Creative Strategy Lab and newsletter
• Master The Inbox on LinkedIn
• Master The Inbox on Instagram
• Reddit — one of the customer research sources discussed.
• Copyhackers — the company behind Copy School, mentioned in Monica’s buying experience.
• Kit, ChatGPT, and Claude — tools mentioned in the discussion about email and research support.
• Google Analytics — mentioned when discussing where traffic and revenue come from.

Hi. And welcome.
My name is Monica Badiu. I am a marketing consultant turned conversion copywriter and copy coach. I help online course creators and info product businesses sell more through persuasive, non-spammy, no fluff copywriting.

I teach about copywriting, digital marketing, and conversion strategies tested in my businesses and with my clients. 

Other links:

• Get to know more about Monica Badiu: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monicabadiu
• Join the free Master the Inbox community https://www.skool.com/master-the-inbox-school-4845
• Visit Monica’s website: https://www.monicabadiu.com 
• Listen more Master the Inbox episodes: https://www.mastertheinbox.com 
• Get your Black Friday resources: https://www.monicabadiu.com/black-friday-resources/ 
• Read Monica’s blogs: https://www.monicabadiu.com/blog
• Get your freebies: https://www.monicabadiu.com/freebie
• Get help with your copywriting by scheduling a free discovery call: ...

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Monica: [00:00:00] Every Black Friday, inboxes fill up with the same message, 30% off, 50% off, 70% off. But what if price was never the reason your customers choose you?

Monica: Hey, you're listening to Master the Inbox, the podcast where course creators, coaches, and consultants learn how to sell with email in a non-spammy way. I'm your host, Monica Badiu, conversion strategist, copywriter, and course creator. And today, along with my guest, Charlie Sargeant, we're going to unpack why 70% of everything became the default Black Friday move, what you can do instead, and why understanding your audience should shape your offer far more than the size of your discount. we start with the questions, I wanna tell you a little bit about my guest today. She's the founder of the [00:01:00] Creative Strategy Lab, where she helps marketers turn, "Why do people actually buy from me?" into messaging and offers that convert. So of course, I'm super interested in talking to her because I'm a copywriter, and that's what I also have to do, so it's always great to learn from others. Her background is in paid social. She spent years in agency leadership overseeing creative strategy across over 22 million pounds per year in ad spend, and that's huge. the foundation of her work is universal. Basically, dig into what customers really want in their own words, then build all marketing around it. This is essentially conversion copywriting, so charlie, welcome to the show.

Charlie: Hello, hello

Monica: So I'll start with most important question right now, and then we'll move into, calmer waters. So every November, [00:02:00] inboxes, social media feeds, I assume even like ads in Google searches, everything gets flooded with like 70% off everything.

I know I remember an offer from a few years ago. I think it was like 90% off everything. like $7 for many, many courses.

Charlie: All the courses, all the things

Monica: the courses, exactly. So why do you think discounting has become the default move for so many brands, even when it might not actually be the right move?

Charlie: Yeah, great question. I think discounts are obviously a really easy lever to pull. Um, it doesn't need any insight from you about your buyers or about your customers. You don't really need to know anything to just put 70% off in a subject line. Um, but I also think it feels safe around that time of Black Friday because everybody else is doing it, and there's obviously then that element of panic.

If everyone else is offering a discount and I'm not, you know, a lot of people [00:03:00] hold the belief that the only reason people buy is on price. So if your competitors are offering a discount and you're not, there's that panic, as I said, around, "Well, then our customers are all gonna go somewhere else."

So it's kind of that keeping up with Joneses almost, but just trying to keep up with that pace of discounts that seem to be everywhere, all over the inbox and all over the newsfeed. Um, but what I would say is easy and right aren't always the same thing

Monica: so basically, if everybody is doing it, I will do it also. Or on the flip side, we have, well, they're doing it, I'm not doing it. I'm not going to discount because it's going to devalue my brand.

Charlie: And that's the real, a big thing I think that, you know, 90% off everything, is such a good example. Like, , that's so easy to do with a digital product because there aren't as many sort of overheads and delivery costs that go behind that. But if you're selling something a bit more physical, like I work with a lot of e-com brands, for example, you just can't do that.

Like, and it's completely inappropriate. Like, [00:04:00] your margins will be through the ground. There'll be nothing. You'll be losing money on that offer. So it's really interesting definitely around the time of Black Friday, even just scrolling your newsfeed, even if you're not into paid social, which obviously I, I am, so I'm gonna be a bit leaning over that way and be a bit biased for that.

But even just as a consumer of anything, scrolling through your newsfeed on Black Friday is fascinating to see where brands go with it, what they're offering, and how they're positioning everything.

Monica: I love that. Um, I remember a few years ago I was writing for a big brand, and they were thinking about discounting a huge merch kind of box, and it would be like 4,000 euro. And I was asking, "Okay, who would actually buy this?

And have you really taken into account all the aspects of it?

So if you wanna sell this for Black Friday, you're gonna have such a pain with customer support." 'Cause it, it was like a big [00:05:00] thing, right? And they would sell it worldwide, which meant that some people would get their Black Friday purchase probably one month later.

Charlie: More like Christmas, yeah

Monica: And well, that's still like a good selling point, but, uh, you couldn't really secure it, right?

'Cause it, it could come with damages and with Black Friday a lot of expectations are like, "I buy it now, I want it now."

I was able to shift that huge risk deal selling digital product. interestingly enough, the discount was not 70%,

20%, and it made them a quarter of a million

and we only had like five emails, and we did not send an email on Black Friday

Charlie: Well, you're just buried, aren't you, on Black Friday? Like, it's kind of what, what's the [00:06:00] point? And there's so- well, there is a point, obviously. That's a bit reductive to say that, isn't it? But it's part of the strategy, is timing, is such a huge part of the strategy, isn't it?

Monica: Yeah. So why I wanted to bring up that specific example. So they were probably the most expensive brand in their market.

Else was doing 70%, 90% lower cost products, and yet they still had the best Black Friday ever without actually being aggressive with the emails, with the copy,

with the discount, 'cause we did not use the discount to communicate the actual value of the offer,

that was very cool and it separates what most people do.

And that's actually the whole point of today's episode, trying to figure out can someone the same? Both you and I know a lot of people who don't wanna discount their brand because it devalues it,

they don't [00:07:00] want, you know, freebie seekers or deal seekers.

How do we actually do that?

Where is your starting point?

Charlie: So I think, just wanna touch on that as well. That's so important because the thing is when you compete on price, it's always a race to the bottom. And even if you win that race, even if you acquire loads of new customers, you're acquiring really price-sensitive customers that the next time, you know, you wanna try and sell them something, maybe you're on a subscription and the price goes up the next month, or maybe you've got a new product or service or a new digital resource at full price, they're not gonna buy it because you're just bringing in that low-quality customer, especially if you're going to the discount depths of 70-plus percent.

And that's where a 20%, like a softer discount, can actually be strategically better at attracting the right type of customer. I mean you never see Apple doing a discount. I actually bought a laptop. When I needed a new laptop last year, I waited for Black Friday 'cause I was like, "I wonder what I can get."

And the only thing that they offered was, um, free [00:08:00] AirPods with a purchase over a certain amount. And I was so intrigued by that. Like, they didn't give any financial discount at all, but they don't need to because they're Apple. And also that's a huge part of their brand, is that level of luxury of you don't get discounts here.

You know, they're not training their buyers to wait for discounts. They don't devalue the brand and the product by offering discounts. This is the value of the product. This is what it's worth. This is all you're ever gonna be paying for it. You're not gonna get it for cheaper. And that, you know, feeds through into all of their strategy.

You know, the website feels really premium. In-store experience feels really premium. Everything feels really premium. So that's, you know, a really good example, I guess, of the complete flip side of 90% off is Apple's, "Oh, we might just give you a pair of free AirPods that are, like, £150 when you're spending a bazillion thousand pounds on a laptop."

Monica: I love that you mentioned Apple 'cause, when I'm doing marketing consultancy and I talk with, clients who are not necessarily course creators or they do wanna do, like, a big launch, and they always tell me, "I want a campaign just like [00:09:00] Apple does theirs." I'm like, "Okay, so tell me about your brand and what have you been doing for marketing, and how are you

your product, your services?" And what comes back is basically, "I want to sell like Apple, but I'm willing to invest, like, 1% of what Apple is investing

in branding, in

in authority and all

Charlie: Product development. Like Apple's margins probably aren't that good, actually, no, maybe they are. But they're the type of brand that they're investing in really good materials. You know, they're investing in, you know, the, the way a laptop feels. It's, like, metal casing. It's not like some Dell plastic number.

You know? Like, everything that they're investing in, that is premium, and a lot of brands, exactly as you're saying, they don't want to invest in their product and service and brand in the same way. So it's, yeah, you can't do one and expect the other

Monica: So here's the question? So if I'm not able to do it like Apple, and I don't have a premium offer, [00:10:00] I've not established, you know, one position in the market. I'm not the first option for many people. What do I do? I mean, is it maybe better for me to go with an actual big Black Friday discount to see some results, or do I still try to convey value when I haven't done any of that?

Charlie: Hmm. So one of the reasons why Apple can do Black Friday with no discounts is because they give people a strong enough reason to buy. And for Apple, as you said, a lot of that is brand. You know, they've invested so much in brand. That is not easy for people like you and I who are running our own businesses.

You know, this all applies to us as well, as well as everyone who'll be listening. Um, we don't have the resources or the time to invest in brand in that way, so it goes back to giving people a strong enough reason to buy. So if you can create your, campaigns around [00:11:00] real, real in-depth knowledge of your buyer and make it a complete no-brainer for them to buy because you understand them on such a deep level, you know exactly what their pain is, you know exactly what their, like, aspirational desired outcome is, and if you can communicate that strongly enough, people won't need a discount.

I bought from Apple that day even though they didn't have a discount. I waited, like, I don't know, eight weeks waiting for Black Friday to see if I could get something. I didn't. I didn't go to another retailer to try and get a discount. I stuck with Apple because that was the product that I knew I wanted because, for whatever reason, they gave me that strong enough reason to buy.

You don't have to be Apple to give people a strong enough reason to buy, and they will still buy from you even without a 70% discount. So that's 100% the biggest mistake that I see across the inbox, across newsfeeds, I mean, all marketing channels really, websites, is people will just plaster 70% off, or even if it's just 20% off.

But that on its own is not a reason for people to buy. You still need to explain to [00:12:00] them, how is this product gonna affect your life? What transformation are you gonna have? What pain point is it gonna take away? How does it fit in with your self-identity? You know, All of these things, all of these classic psychological, copywriting, marketing things, they still apply, but brands just forget them on Black Friday, and they just go, "20% off site-wide."

And it's like, but new people coming through your doors, that's not enough of a reason.

Monica: I think a lot of people, they just live in an isolated bubble. So, you know, throughout the year, if you wanna launch something, if you wanna, you know, open a new course, it's easier than doing Black Friday because you're not competing with everybody else in the world.

That experience, it's very difficult to even envision how big the competition is during Black Friday, 'cause you're not competing just with other people who are selling the same course as you are, like teaching the same thing, competing with [00:13:00] everything else. We're competing with retailers like Adidas or Nike,

uh, I don't wanna say Apple 'cause they're not actually doing Black Friday, but I know there are people who are waiting, right, for Apple's

or Samsung, or I know, whatever else. So it's you and a thousand other advertisers and brands

for the same budget. And I like to read consumer reports. I'm geeky like that. And basically what the data was showing is that it's not necessarily that people wanna spend less during Black Friday

they're more cautious about what they're spending money on and how is that valuable to them. that was very important because when I started saying these things to my clients, they were kind of looking at me in a little bit like, "What do you mean? They're going to learn how to do this." I mean, yeah, but [00:14:00] why does that matter to their life?

How is

be different in six months from now, in 12 months from now? Because if you're able to capture that outcome

explain the value of them investing

bit of their Black Friday budget with you, then you're already setting yourself apart from, like, 90% of their inbox and everything

seeing on social media.

And to be honest A small business owner is never going to be as good in terms of ads and copy as a big company that has dedicated departments that aren't just, like, doing the copy and the visual. They're doing the whole strategy behind

the retargeting ads, all of that.

I think that's a really good aspect of finding a good reason for why, why they should buy. And

ask you, what other reasons are there? Why would someone buy from you if you [00:15:00] don't have the biggest discount in the market?

Charlie: Yeah. It's such a good point, and I think people definitely overlook this. Black Friday is a retail event, you know? We've got the US to thank for that. It's obviously Europe, UK-wide. It's everywhere now, but it, you know, it started off as a real kind of haul um, experience in the US.

But it is a retail event, you know. I say to my clients all the time that you can literally picture your buyer at home sitting there with their credit card, like waiting for something to buy. People are primed to buy around Black Friday. They are absolutely primed. But the key point that you made there is that they're not necessarily just looking at courses.

They're not necessarily just waiting for the Apple discount. They're not necessarily gonna buy those Adidas trainers they've had their eye on for a couple of months. Um, it will be across all of those things. And so in answer to your question, one of the things that is really, really important is that seasonality and that timeliness. I think a lot of people do Christmas shopping on Black Friday, so for e-com, I think it's a lot easier, [00:16:00] um, because you have to think about, "Okay, so why do we wanna convince people to buy this thing right now?" Gifting is a huge opportunity in Black Friday. But for course creators and service providers like us, it's different, and I love what you said around, "So what does this look like for you in six months?

What's, what does this look like for you in 12 months?" And doing that time framing I think is a really, really big one in terms of how else you can give people a reason to buy right now that isn't just discount But there are a ton of other things as well. So one of the key ones that I like to think about a lot is identity.

So really understanding the current identity of your buyer, but also the desired future identity that they want, or the way- the identity that they want to be perceived as. It's an e-com example, but I think it will help people to understand the concept.

I was working a while ago with a designer dupe brand, so it was fragrances that sold dupes of designer perfumes, and I was doing some identity work, and we came up with these few different [00:17:00] identities. One of them was, like, the self-procra- self-procra- bluh, self-proclaimed, wow, tongue twister, bargain hunter who literally prides themselves on getting things at the lowest possible price.

Like, not me paying full price for that, absolutely not, that kind of person. And so we had one, like, you know, group of messaging that was for that person that's taking pride in being a discount hunter. And then another one of the identities was the person who always feels really put together, probably got a designer handbag.

You know, really never leaves the house without lipstick, always feels, like wants to be really put together. But maybe they just can't afford the designer handbag and the designer perfume, so the way we talk to that person is completely different. You know, that bargain hunter copy would turn that person off so fast.

They would literally run away from the brand. So understanding the different identities, how people self-identify and how they want to identify is just, like, so powerful. It's probably one of the most powerful levers that we have in marketing

Monica: I [00:18:00] was listening to you and trying to remember when I use that, the only thing that comes to mind is just writing by fluency level. So someone who is advanced is going to be very bored and unappealed by something that is designed for someone who's a beginner or intermediate, whereas someone who's a beginner and gets advanced content, they're gonna be like, "This sounds amazing, but I don't know what I'm looking at."

Charlie: Yeah. And it, it like affects their confidence almost because it, it doesn't align with the identity of how they see themselves. Like, "This is too advanced for me. I'm scared. I'm not gonna buy."

Monica: Exactly. That

Charlie: Yeah

Monica: a discussion we had recently around that specific thing, 'cause they, they continue to open the emails, but they don't really engage with it, so for the advanced person, it could be like, "Well, I love the brand. I'm gonna open the email." They're gonna scan it, but they're gonna be like, "This is too easy.

I'm not doing it." Whereas someone who's a [00:19:00] beginner, they're gonna have a hard time moving forward with a purchase, especially if the regular content is geared towards advanced, and then it ends in an advanced program. They're gonna have all of those objections about, "I can't do this. This is too hard.

I don't have time." They're, they are not seeing quick wins. And I think this is specifically important in the onboarding sequences you have for lead magnets.

And now we're talking about Black Friday, and it's the same thing. you can't really send the same message to someone who is beginner, intermediate, and advanced,

especially when you have different offers for these segments, right?

Someone who's advanced telling them about the specific things they can do and where they actually stuck in a way that mirrors back that specific issue is a lot more persuasive than telling them a simple thing that I could [00:20:00] do, right?

And I'm just someone who can read content online. I can say hello in a few different languages. So-

Charlie: I don't know. Your Duolingo streak's pretty good, right?

Monica: Um, yeah, I have like 14, uh, 1,400 days I think

Charlie: Ah, amazing

Monica: I still feel like I'm not even intermediate. I wouldn't trust myself having a conversation with a native,

Charlie: You wouldn't be sending yourself on the advanced segment then?

Monica: Definitely not. It would be completely over my head. Okay, so we heard identity.

Charlie: Identity, yes. And another one that comes up quite a lot is, speed and convenience. So quite often, people don't want to waste time figuring it out themselves. People love to take the go faster route so often, and so many funnels I see don't offer the go faster route up front, and that's literally leaving revenue on the table.

So that's another really good one, especially for course creators and service providers, [00:21:00] is, using speed and convenience. If you have, a product that speed and convenience is, like, a core part of it, then what I would do is be thinking about your Black Friday offer is maybe trying to find a way to add a faster route or, like, a done with you version, um, of that because that's gonna appeal to the type of person who loves speed and convenience.

So thinking about who's buying and what actually appeals to them because giving away 70% is actually probably not the thing they want, and then you're literally just giving away margin. You can actually give them something they want more that might increase your conversion rate even higher without giving away the margin.

So just having that, again, like I said, really in-depth understanding of, like, the type of buyer, depending on the type of product or service that you're selling, can really alter what you end up doing for your offer

Monica: So how about a specific outcome in like 90 days?

Charlie: Mm, love it. Yes,

Monica: Those do really, really well with courses. Uh, I think it's one of the things that have remained constant over the years in terms of positioning [00:22:00] Black Friday.

Charlie: Yeah. Or even like I do a lot of workshops that I'm sort of selling into my main program, but when people sign up for the workshop, I have something on there that's like, "Don't wanna wait for the workshop? Just book a call with me, and I can tell you about the full service. And if you wanna go, let's go."

So something like that on Black Friday, maybe opening up your calendar for, like free calls. I always tell this story, right? When I first started my business, I mean, let's be honest, I'm still struggling with it. I think every business owner would agree. I really struggle with my offer positioning, like my overall business offer.

Not offer as in discount, offer as in what is it that I do for you. And I'd been trying to find some resources to help me for so long, and I must have signed up for a lead magnet of something at some point, never opened it, classic. But then I got an email that said, "Hey, I'm offering like one-to-one sessions where we're gonna look at your offer together.

You're gonna leave with like tangible ideas." And I didn't know who she was. I didn't even recognize the name, 'cause I obviously hadn't opened the lead magnet. But I booked that call, took that call, and she was fantastic, and I bought her [00:23:00] coaching services instantly. And so that's me. I was in that go faster space.

I downloaded a lead magnet, never read it, but I really wanted to figure this out. So if you have something, and this is the thing I say a lot, and I know I'm jumping around a bit here, but I say this in the same, give the same advice to this about, like outreach, is like if you have a specific thing that you solve, you need to get it in front of people.

Even if your outreach conversion rate is like 1%, it doesn't matter because you just need to find that handful of people who have the problem that you can solve right now, and you need to get in their inbox and tell them about it. It's actually that simple, and who cares if 97 out of 100 people don't reply.

The three that do reply and are ready for your services right now will bite your hand off, and you will make money straight away. But if you're not offering that, if you're not saying, "Hey, let's get on a call and let's talk about this thing that I know that you're facing. If you're an agency owner, I know that you're struggling with Andromeda," this is my outreach stuff at the moment, "and if you can't get the volume and variety of crave that you want, let's chat.

That's exactly what I can help [00:24:00] with." Maybe 97% of people, that's not relevant, and the pain isn't quite painful enough yet that they book that call. But for the one to 3% that do, it's like instant sale. So, you know, having that go faster option of like, "You don't need to get on my email list. You don't need to come to this workshop.

If you have this problem and you wanna fix it now, let's talk."

Monica: just mirroring back the language that the customer would use to describe where they're stuck is so powerful. I always give the example of Copy School. I think it was like three, four years ago. I waited for a long time because it was very expensive for my budget at that moment. I think it was, um, $4,500 per year. That was not the kind of money I had to invest in that, so I said, "Okay, I'm gonna wait for Black Friday." Their Black Friday was still expensive, like it still had four figures,

I bought it. Like, I [00:25:00] instantly bought it from like the very first email they sent, and the email they sent was not even like, "Black Friday is live." It was an identity based email

reflected the exact of mind I was in to the point where I was like, how do they know? This is exactly what I was telling myself the other day. So obviously with like a four figure investment, even if it's Black Friday, there were still like concerns 'cause it's a big number,

Charlie: big commitment.

Monica: Exactly.

Even though I had the objections in my mind, I still purchased. And then the next year offered lifetime for still some kind of a big number, and again, I bought it instantly. And it wasn't necessarily just what they were telling me during the Black Friday campaign. It was the copy designated to people [00:26:00] in my segment that was basically always reflecting back the problems I had at the moment where I self-id- identified as a conversion copywriter who was a freelancer. And everything they were sending me, it was both value, both coaching opportunity, and then moving me forward to the conversion. Not, in not one moment have I felt like this is too salesy,

too much. I've probably purchased like 80% of everything they've ever sent me.

Charlie: That's it. And, and how powerful is that? And, you know, how much would that change everybody's business, mine included, everyone listening, if they could get every single customer to buy two more of their products, three more of their products. You know, like having that, that ambassador type of customer, that, like, diehard fan that literally buys everything that you do.

And of course, that's difficult [00:27:00] to do. That takes a hell of a lot of marketing strategy and planning, but it's possible for everyone. It's possible for any business. And the key thing that I talk about with my clients in terms of, okay, so how do you get there? That sounds great, but, you know, they said every single problem that's ever crossed your mind, they knew it, and they put it in their campaigns, and that's what got you to convert.

And the mistake I see all the time from business owners, myself included, oh my God, how much do I frustrate myself that I do this, is, like, my business is my baby, so I will always talk about the features. You buy my thing, and you get this Claude scale, and you get these four play boards, and you get that.

People don't care about that. What does that mean? It means you're not gonna spend hours searching for ad inspiration. It means you're gonna have all your competitors' ads at your fingertips. It means you're not gonna be spending, like, hours doing manual research. Like, you've gotta translate that, what you as the business owner, as your baby, those things that you're so proud of that you've built, buyers don't really care.

They care about the outcome of what that thing does for them, and [00:28:00] you really care about that as a business owner. Of course you do. That's why you created that feature in that way in the first place. But we're terrible at communicating that. I'm a marketer. I do this as a job, and I suck at it for my own business.

Like, it's almost embarrassing. I shouldn't even be saying this in, like, a public forum. But it's so true, and I'm sure so many other business owners will relate. So finding out in your customer's words what it actually means for them, is really, really important, but it, it's tricky. So I have some notes actually here about how I help clients with this.

So if I was working with someone and, you know, wanted to help them get to that level of relevance where every statement felt like a problem that they've thought in their mind, the first place to start is testimonials. So if you aren't collecting testimonials as a course provider or a service provider, start now.

The best time to start was, like, you know, 10 years ago, but the, the, the next best time to start is absolutely now. So figure out a process that you can collect testimonials, maybe make it part of your emails, email flows or, like, post-purchase email flows, that kind of thing. [00:29:00] If you don't have any of your own testimonials, there'll probably be a competitor out there somewhere that's offering a similar course or a similar service to you who has been collecting testimonials, so go and look at their testimonials and see what people say. I did this recently with a Pinterest advertising services provider, and she was like, "I schedule all the things. I, like, make all the boards. I do all of these things." And I was like, "Great, but what does that mean for your end customer, like, your client?" And she was like Well, I was like, "You know the answer.

Come on." And she was like, "Well, it saves some time." I was like, "Perfect. It saves some time." It saves their creative juices because they don't have to plan it because you're taking care of all of that. It frees up their time to focus on the other areas of the business that really need their attention.

You gotta do that translation. So, and if you don't have your own testimonials, you will find this language in other people's testimonials, because people don't leave testimonials saying, "I really loved that she gave me seven Pinterest boards a week." They don't say that. They say, "Oh my God, it saved me so much time, and that time meant that I could go and hang out with my family," or, [00:30:00] "I could go and, like, fix that accountancy problem that I had," or whatever it was.

So testimonials is the number one place, um, where you can find stuff. Don't worry if you don't have your own. Go steal someone else's, and just grab some insights there. Reddit is another really, really good place to find some of these insights, how people talk in their own language around their problems.

Testimonials are really fantastic, but people, I think, do expect other people to read them. Quite often, a brand will reply to a testimonial. But Reddit is sort of where people say what they really mean, and I think people don't think they're being watched on Reddit. So you'll get some real nuggets of language there that will really make you laugh and will really resonate with you.

My favorite example, actually, again, it's an e-com reference, but it's just funny, of when I did this, was I was working with a sock brand over Q4, and I was helping them with their creative strategy, and I was like, "God, this is gonna push me to my limit. How can I make socks exciting?" And they're really funky socks, um, like really [00:31:00] great designs, really personalized stuff.

Anyway, what I found in my research was that people do like to wear fun socks, but the quality always sucks. And this brand that I was working with, good quality and fun socks. So I was like, "Okay, I'm onto something here." And I'm digging around in Reddit, like, looking through threads, and I found somebody say, "I hate the feeling when you put on a new pair of socks and you blow a hole through the big toe, and you just have to sit there in that sock all day."

And I just thought that was so, such, like, visceral language, like blowing a hole through the big toe, and I can literally imagine that really awkward feeling of, like, when it's, like, around the base of your big toe and it's tightening and it feels horrible and you wanna, like, rip your foot off all day long when you're sat in the office.

And I never in 100,000 years would have come up with that line of copy, but I got it on Reddit, and I loved it. And I actually put it in the ads, and it performed really, really well. So you'll find these types of nuggets of language, and obviously, that's e-com and socks. I don't know if there'll be anybody listening who sells socks, but, um, you'll find similar [00:32:00] things related to whatever it is that you're selling

Monica: There are there on Reddit as well. I've used it so many times and have many good insights there, and also objections. For some of the clients I work with, there are actually Reddit threads they're asking, uh, "What do you think about this program? Is it worth it?" And you always get, like, a mix of really good opinions.

To your point, they don't think they're being read, watched.

It's very good. So these are really good sources. Uh, I also use social media comments.

Charlie: Hmm, that's a really good one

Monica: Yes, exactly. And it's really good for online courses as well, 'cause if you have, like, a good YouTube channel, you can actually see what people are saying in relation to specific things you're teaching. So how do we get these insights when we have our own audience? [00:33:00] Like, how do we actually test it? Do you use email surveys, for instance, to figure out how do they self-identify?

Charlie: when I'm doing this for my clients, I use testimonials, and I will look for patterns in the data. So if I find a pain point that's like, "I just, uh, don't have time to create seven Pinterest boards in a week," and I see that one repeated, like, 10 times, then I'll be like, "That's a key one for us to start testing with."

Maybe, like, the second one, most popular one, we only found that, like, two times, and it was something a bit more generic. Maybe it was like " I just, I don't even know how to log into Pinterest. My tech skills are so bad." So maybe there's, that's another pain point that people have. But it was nowhere near as common as the one saying, "I don't have time."

So there's time and there's skills. I would look for the one that's featured the most frequent, and that would be the one that I start with. So you're at least trying to make a data-led decision in the very first step rather than just kind of collecting data and putting all data points that you collect as equal and then picking them at random.

You can at least start to [00:34:00] structure them in some kind of, like, hierarchy. Again, if you don't have testimonials and you can't find testimonials from even competitors, same with Reddit. Find a Reddit thread related to the topic that's got, like, the highest amount of comments possible.

Like, just choose the one that's got the most comments in there, and dig through it. And just keep a rough tally. It doesn't have to be scientific. It doesn't have to be, you know, in a spreadsheet or AI-generated. Just, you know, keep a rough tally, or pen and paper works absolutely fine as well. What are the patterns?

What are the things that you keep seeing people talk about? That's absolutely, I would say, the first place to start. And in terms of testing, obviously much easier in paid social because you just get data back so quickly. But if I was doing it via email, you're probably way more skilled to speak on this one.

But I would probably just think about doing some A/B tests, like split test subject lines,, and things like that, and just see what seems to land best, what seems to get the best open rates and the best click-through rates. And as much as possible, try and make it data-led rather than gut feel-led. That's also

biggest mistake that I see with especially with [00:35:00] founders, and it's the same.

Again, hand held high. I am so attached to my angles and my messaging because I've worked so hard on them, and I find it really hard to let things go. That's why having a business coach, my gosh, is so important because you need someone who can be, I always get it wrong, subjective or objective? The one that can give you advice without emotion, basically.

Whatever that one is.

Objective, yes. So it... And not everyone can afford a business coach, totally fine, but let the data tell you as much as possible rather than your gut feel

Monica: 100% agree with that. Also, I have the same thing 'cause I can geek over so many cool and interesting things that my target audience doesn't really consider as interesting or appealing because their problem is completely different. So I always have to go back to say, I'm geeking out about positioning, but my client's problems are

why can't I convert my [00:36:00] email list? I have 10 different products for three different fluency levels, and I'm not selling anything." yeah, I think every owner has the same problem, especially if they're in charge of marketing.

Charlie: Especially if you're a marketer, that's almost even worse because you kind of kid yourself that, "Well, I know what I'm doing." You don't. Not, well, not when it's your own business. I can't speak to you. I don't mean that directly that you don't. I mean generally one doesn't. I definitely don't. I've made so many marketing mistakes in my business, it's

Again, let's not ... I'm not gonna continue that. Let, let's move on

Monica: so to your question, like doing this with email marketing, so I'm using what you're using in terms of like the first step, like collecting the data. The second step, analyzing the data to see what are the most common patterns. But I'm doing three and four, which three is, so we have this Black Friday offer, or we're thinking about doing this bundle. [00:37:00] Out of all these frequent pain points that show up, what is actually matching with our Black Friday offer's,

and then we take it to the email list, so we put it to the test. I usually have a two-step campaign. The first campaign is actually asking the entire email list. So we're thinking about Black Friday, but we don't wanna just slam a discount on something and call it a day. We actually wanna make sure that if we're offering something, it's something that's valuable to you. We know economic times are hard, finances are whatever, so I take into account the context, and then I invite them to answer like a three-question survey asks them about the biggest struggle they have, the current level they're at, what they have tried so far, and then the third thing is future paced. What would you like to achieve next [00:38:00] year?

Take that data, I work it through again, see do I have some of the findings I got from like Reddit and the initial research. Again, which of these can I actually solve with my Black Friday offer? And then I have another email that kind of tests either what they want to achieve or how they self-identify. So out of

things, which, affirmation or phrase or problem best describes you? And then based on the biggest answers there, that's how we position Black Friday, and we use the most common outcome they want for the next year from the initial one to basically explain the value of what we're doing.

Charlie: Awesome. That's so cool. Love that

Monica: but I had a-another question. So do your clients combine what they see on the side of ads [00:39:00] with what they're seeing in, you know, CRM, email marketing, research? Because that's a really good way to get another data point from a larger set of people, and then basically test it or compare it against w-who you already have on your email list.

Charlie: it really varies by client because, you know, the more sophisticated clients will have someone in-house that's taking care of email, so there will be stuff around like segmentation that we can look at. There might be like post-purchase surveys that go out that ask these types of questions, which is also fantastic data for us to use.

But a less sophisticated client, you know, maybe more like a startup who's in the really low spend at the moment just trying to get things started, they just don't have that information, and oftentimes they don't have the skills or the time to deploy any kind of email-led research, which is really a huge wasted opportunity. But it kind of, I would say, is I guess outside of [00:40:00] the scope definitely of my expertise. Um, so maybe I need to be saying, "Hey, you need to go and talk to Monica because you're missing a huge opportunity here."

Monica: Um, well, talk to me or to other people or even use the AI integrations most email marketing platforms have already. I just had a client

integrate Kit with ChatGPT,

there are many insights that you can get, that you won't even think about

because,

not an email marketer, but you can cross-reference. And if you're u- if you're running ads already, I'm sure there's a way AI can take data your email marketing provider, from Meta

Charlie: And here are the themes. Yeah.

And I think as well, the really important part, I guess, with, with those startup-type businesses, a little goes a long way. Like, it's not gonna be the same level of email strategy that someone like you with a ton of experience would be [00:41:00] able to offer. But hey, there's a bigger cost associated to that because you need to pay for that level of experience.

But with a startup company, ChatGPT or Claude can really just establish the basics, and if you don't have the basics in place, the basics can really move the needle of a small business, so actually the impact can be huge. So going from, "I have absolutely nothing because I don't know anything about email," to, "Okay, ChatGPT has helped me set up the basic flows and helping me to, like, shape campaigns," that can actually move the needle in a really huge way, um, that can make a difference in a small business.

Monica: It just hit me what you said before. Like, how come, like how, how in the world can you run a business that is using ads without having a good email marketing strategy in place? There's so much money that they're

Charlie: Yeah, 100%. And this is a huge part of, um, when I'm, like, scoping with leads is, like, how much of your revenue is coming through paid social, and if it's more than, like, 60%, that's a huge red flag for [00:42:00] me because I'm like, "You're not doing all the other things, and you're gonna be so emotionally invested, and your business life or death relies on what I'm doing."

That's just a no from me usually. So yeah, I would always be having a look in, at minimum, you know, depending on what tools they've got, Google Analytics, to say, "Right, where's your revenue and traffic coming from? Are you getting at least 20-plus percent of your revenue coming from email?" This is for e-com, so the numbers would be very different for, like, course creators and service-based businesses, I guess.

But is it at least 20%?

Monica: I've had clients who relied only on ads, like 90%

revenue, leads, traffic

was coming from ads. So a few years ago, Meta would just ban accounts or temporarily pause them.

Charlie: You're screwed.

Monica: You're done

Charlie: Oh, it's terrifying.

I do just have a few other things 'cause I was just scanning my notes. There was a few things that, um, I maybe veered of course and [00:43:00] didn't finish mentioning. So when we were talking about how to collect insights, we talked a bit about Reddit, we talked a bit about testimonials. You obviously added a really great point around like social comments.

Other things that are really valuable for people to look at, especially service-based businesses, like most of my sales actually come via LinkedIn, so I'm in the DMs quite a lot. So thinking about trends in your DMs as well, like what kind of things are people talking to you about in your DMs? Any sales call notes that you've got.

So if you have, um, a part of your service that you sell via like a book a call funnel, um, what are leads actually saying on their sales calls about what they want, what their problems are? Have a great... You know, there's so many fantastic AI note takers now, a lot of them are free. Make sure you're absolutely using them, and quite often you can get AI summaries really, really quickly of like, when I had calls with prospective customers, what were they talking about? Same with emails. If people are replying to your newsletters or email campaigns with [00:44:00] questions, these are the things that people are desperate to understand. You might find in these areas objections. You know, people might be asking questions around to help them understand like the value, so that's gonna give you good clues on how you can overcome objections.

But also, there might be things that people are asking because you've not explained very well what's actually included, and so these things are all really, really valuable inputs for you to think about when you are positioning yourself on Black Friday. So not just giving the 70% off, but understanding why that person is buying and making sure you're giving them that no-brainer reason.

Monica: it's not often that I find someone who can geek out about, uh, customer research as

do. So how did you get into this?

Charlie: Basically, it's quite a funny story, and I do say this publicly, so I'm very honest about this. I'm a media buyer by background, so paid social media buying Facebook ads, and it used to be really technical, bidding strategies, you know, audience types, campaign types, and [00:45:00] it used to be a real, you know, understanding the backend of Meta was really paramount about what kind of performance you could get for your clients.

But then when iOS 14.5 came in and opting out of tracking and all of that, the technical side of media buying started to become way less important, and creative just took over. Um, it just became so much harder for Meta to understand people's activity around the internet with lots of people opting out of tracking, so that really specific targeting mechanism started to change.

It is coming back now. I mean, the algorithm is terrifyingly intelligent. Um, but for a really long time, and it will continue this way, creative is the targeting. What you say in the creative enables the algorithm to find the audience. So we started to realize at the agency, well, if we're not in charge of creative, if we're not in charge of coming up with a strategy that angles how to talk to buyers, our messages, we're not in control of performance anymore.

So, you know, we kept losing clients. Churn was bad because we just had lost control of performance. So we basically decided, okay, we're [00:46:00] gonna build a creative department, so I helped with that. But media buyers by background are very analytical. Like, I'm a very data-driven person. I am terrible at copywriting, and that's the bit that I do say publicly, so it's fine.

And I say this to all my clients, like, I can do you a fantastic creative strategy. I think the strategic part of it I'm great at, and it, you know, I say that because I've a ton of experience and work on mindset and confidence. But I am really great at the strategy, but

I'm not great at translating that into a well-written ad. I can do it 100%, but it just takes me a really long time. It just doesn't come naturally to me. So the strategy part I'm really efficient with, and then the copywriting part I suck at. So basically, the way that I built my business and my system is really numerically driven because that's the way that my brain works.

I wouldn't be able to do it. I always talk about this guy that I used to work with at the agency. His name was Mark. Hi, Mark. Shout out if you're listening. And he was just fantastic. He was a natural copywriter, and he could just look at a client's [00:47:00] website and understand the buyer and just nail it. He could just come up with the right angles and the right messages on the spot, and it was hard sometimes because clients would be like, "Where have you come up with that angle?"

And I'm like, "Mark. Mark's just great. Mark. Mark just wrote it. And it would always work. It would always work. He just had the skills to do it. I am not blessed with those skills, so I have to run it through data first and, like, look at loads of numbers and be like, "Right, this is what people wanna see."

And then with a lot of fiddling and changing, then come up with the copy So yeah, it's basically just because I'm a really analytical data nerd

Monica: I'll share a secret. That's what conversion copywriters do

Charlie: Okay, good. That makes me feel better

Monica: It's like 80% research, 20% writing skill

Charlie: Hmm. Okay. Maybe I'm underselling myself. Maybe I'm giving myself too much of a hard time

Monica: I would say so. I mean, it becomes a lot easier when you have [00:48:00] lots of experience. So for me, I've worked with hundreds of course creators. Many of them were kind of in the same market. So it's a lot easier for me to look at the sales page and instantly understand that it's not talking to the right audience

of all the previous experience I have researching that type of client.

Charlie: That makes so much sense because everything I always say with marketing, like I did business and marketing at uni, and I have not used a single thing that I studied in my job. And I say this all the time, like I get a lot of, um, people new into marketing on LinkedIn, and i just love talking to people and helping people, especially when they're starting out.

And one of the things I say is it's really, like, hard to hear, but it will come with experience. I can look at an ad and know whether it's gonna work or not because I have looked at tens of thousands of ads. I've just looked at so many, and I've seen performance of so many accounts that I can just know whether it will work or not.

I still don't have the skill to be able to write what will work or not, but I know when [00:49:00] looking at something whether it's gonna work or not, and that's like every single aspect of marketing. It does come down to experience because, and the only way that you can get that is by doing it. So you're right.

I'm probably just, I need to just give myself a bit more time and a bit more grace and keep going with it.

Monica: and failing at it

get better at it. I'm sure there's

a really good quote for that somewhere.

Charlie: Yeah, absolutely. Maybe I need to find it and write it on a Post-it note and stick it to my laptop

Monica: Well, all marketers fight with imposter syndrome, so

charlie, this episode has been so much fun. my final question to you is where can people find you if they wanna learn more about your work, geek over positioning and customer research and creative for ads?

Charlie: So the best place really to find me, I'd say, is LinkedIn. I'm the most consistent there with content just 'cause, I don't know, LinkedIn is just my lead generation machine. So that tends to be where I'm the most consistent. So yeah, find [00:50:00] me on LinkedIn, Charlotte Sargeant. Um, I do also have an email newsletter, so you can join there.

I'm not as consistent with that though, which you're gonna tell me off about, I know, and I've come on an email podcast saying that I'm rubbish at my emails, but hey-ho, there it, there it is. There's the truth. But I do write a lot of... I give away a lot of value. My email list is basically just value, value, value.

So yeah, if you wanna learn some stuff about paid social, about creative strategy, or just basically about marketing psychology, then come hang out with me over there

Monica: Well, I'm sold i'll subscribe

On that note, thank you, Charlie, for everything you've shared with us. for the person who's listening this episode, hope you found value. If you have any questions, you know where to find Charlie. She's on LinkedIn as Charlotte Sergeant. And this is it.

You've Listened to Master the Inbox, and in this season of the podcast, we're focusing on strategies to help course creators, coaches, [00:51:00] and consultants run successful Black Friday campaigns. If you found this episode useful, then please help us spread the word. Like, share, and subscribe wherever you're listening.