Cheeky Run Club

Next stop: Berlin Marathon

• Phoebe Pincus & Anna Coldham • Season 3 • Episode 10

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Hey hello hi friends!

👉 End of season 3 survey here! 

In our final ep before the Berlin Marathon we talk about how to make a race plan (or two or three) and a few different common race strategies used in long distance running.  One of us tries something for the first time in 20* years and the other has gained a lifetime* friend.

Before we do that, we rate our training, mindset, recovery and fuelling for the week and explain why. We then finish by crowning a cheeky team member of the week.

Thanks to the team at On for helping us bring this season to life and creating such magical running shoes/apparel. 

*minus a few years


Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, Tiktok, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

Music produced by Hugh Raper. Logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

Anna:

Cheeky Run Club recognizes that every day we live, work and run on Aboriginal land.

Phoebe:

Marathon is a team sport. For our build to Berlin, we are proud to be part of Team On. And we love having all of you on Team Cheeky. No matter what you're building towards.

Anna:

Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello, Phoebe.

Phoebe:

Hello, Anna.

Anna:

And hello, listeners.

Phoebe:

Today, we are diving into The final week of our marathon prep,

Anna:

Woo!

Phoebe:

um, which is insane. Week 10 Berlin is in exactly one week's time. We're going to rate ourselves out of 10 for our mindset, our training, our recovery, and fueling and explain why. And our deep dive today is on how to make a race plan.

Anna:

Yeah, excited to chat through it with you. And excited to just hear how you're feeling. A week pre Berlin. I'm not with you anymore. Which is a little

Phoebe:

I know you're back, you're back in Australia. It is, it is very sad, but also excited because I mean, maybe we'll get into this, but you've got some exciting news.

Anna:

I have probably the most exciting news of my life.

Phoebe:

You do. And his family is getting a little bit bigger,

Anna:

everyone's gonna think I'm having a baby.

Phoebe:

Well,

Anna:

am not having a baby. Actually, of sorts. Um, anyway, we'll get into that in a second. Bibi, gimme,

Phoebe:

we'll, we'll finish, off script, we're then going to finish by crowning our cheeky team member of the week. Um, but before we get into our notable run slash crocheting moments of the week, We are also releasing our Season 3 Cheeky Feedback Survey. so we did this after Season 1. It is an incredibly useful tool for us to get feedback from you on what kind of content you're enjoying, what you're not, what you want to see more of. We have so many ideas for what we want to do in the future, but we would love your input in them. So we'll pop it in the show notes, we'll also put it in our Instagram bio. And we said this last week, but in case you missed it, there will also be some prizes. We're doing a whole, summer launch of our cheeky merch. So, we're gonna pick five people who complete the survey to get some free merch. So if that's not enough incentive, then I don't know what is. Alright, so let's move on to our notable runs slash cross training of the week. And I want to hear what your worst cross training or run. Was.

Anna:

So, I'm back in Melbourne. It's actually really nice to be home. I'm obviously a little bit tired. heartbroken that I'm not with you, in Copenhagen and then onto Berlin, but I decided I wanted to come home, get myself right, and just know what's going on. don't have a bad experience, but I have two good cross training experiences. Because once again, my week has just been really cool. I arrived home and Dave, my my husband, surprised me at the airport. There was an Australian Shepherd in the car. A puppy. His name is now Ted. And he is my firstborn child and I don't know what my life was like before him because he's just the best.

Phoebe:

You're like, words can't explain the feeling. What didn't your mum say? Like,

Anna:

Yeah I'm like Yeah, like I thought I knew love until I met Ted. It's given a whole new meaning of love. He,

Phoebe:

what

Anna:

the goodest, the smartest boy the world has ever seen. He's got the biggest paws, his belly is so spotty. When this podcast comes out, I reckon I'm going to avoid him to the cheeky stories because I feel like the listeners need to know what he looks like. Maybe we, actually we need to get him some cheeky merch.

Phoebe:

Oh my gosh, yeah, absolutely.

Anna:

Anyway, so yes, that is, uh, yeah, no, uh, no work. Best experiences or cross training. That's one of my best, but

Phoebe:

one of your,

Anna:

let's hear your worst.

Phoebe:

Okay, so no worst for you. Wow, that's huge. My worst was I, went for a easy run on Wednesday and I I'd done a few runs in the days leading up to it and was like, okay, don't wanna get ahead of myself, but like feeling a little bit better. I had. plan to do a final kind of attempt at a long run because my coach was like just give it a go You'll still have 10 days till the marathon So why don't you just try and do it one last long run, not hard or anything, but just one last hit out. So your body's kind of a bit more conditioned leading into the race cause I've had an easy couple of weeks. I'd messaged you about it and I was messaging Sean, my boyfriend as well. And I think you were both like, Oh, I don't know if that's a good idea, but you know, you have to make your own decisions.

Anna:

your girl.

Phoebe:

Unfortunately just wasn't it. I think I realized like 10 minutes in, I started feeling the signs of like fatigue and everything again. And so I just called it after an hour and you know what, it was still a fine run. However, it was just disappointing because I'd built up in my head, like maybe, um, going to be able to get along on it. I think the reality is I reckon I still would have been able to do the long run, but I just didn't want to exhaust myself again and then maybe set myself back. So it was probably a good thing, like probably good listening to my body, but it was also just demoralizing. Cause a small hopeful part of me had been like, maybe I'll just get out and I'll feel good again. You know?

Anna:

Yeah. Yeah. There's that window of hope from the day before.

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

It sort of closed off

Phoebe:

on me.

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

Yeah. So that was my worst run.

Anna:

yeah, when we were chatting about it and I was like, Oh, why are you doing it? I was thinking it's really easy objectively to think that way, but when it's yourself It's so much more complicated and harder to navigate.

Phoebe:

I totally know what you mean. No, it's like. Obviously if you step back, you're like, yeah, you probably could do it. But like, just rest your, you know, a bit a week and we can a bit out, like you're not proving anything to anyone at this point. I feel like for me, my brain struggles to accept. I just, every day I wake up thinking, I reckon I'm going to be feeling better today. And then when that, and that's a good thing. Like, I feel like

Anna:

I was going to say that's yeah. That's one of the things that I love about you the most. It's just yo, like ooze. Confidence. Oh, not confidence. Positivity. You're also confident, but also positive.

Phoebe:

yeah, what's it called? Confidence that's not based in anything. it's just pure like, yeah, I'll reckon I'll probably be better today. And I still, we'll talk about the marathon plan in a, in a bit in this episode, but yeah, part of me is even though I've had such a bad few weeks. My brain just like forgets about it whenever I think about the marathon. I'm like, oh, yeah I reckon I'll probably be

Anna:

I'll be fine. yeah,

Phoebe:

which is which is good because I'm not stressing about it. So

Anna:

Yeah, exactly. That's good.

Phoebe:

That was my worst round, but tell us about some of your best experiences and cross trainings

Anna:

So got a scan on my foot, finally, and I've got a bit of a stress reaction. But spoke to the podiatrist and physio and they made me do all these tests, like the hop test and sort of just jumping around. I look like such a fool. You know what I realized in the room when I was doing the hop test is I have absolutely zero bounce. They were like, go higher, go higher. And I was like, I can't go any higher.

Phoebe:

This is all I got.

Anna:

I'm like this is just

Phoebe:

on the ground.

Anna:

yeah. I've, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if you ever have those times where you just think, gosh, I'm not that young anymore. That was one of those times. I would fail miserably if I was put through an AFL draft and had to do one of those vertical leaps because I probably wouldn't even

Phoebe:

not on the horizon for you in the short term.

Anna:

Um, but yes, anyway, so they, given that I've already had five weeks off, they gave me the okay to try, Walk run for, 10 minutes, like 30 seconds jog, 30 seconds walk. And I was so excited to do it, but obviously at home having Ted, the new puppy, and then also mom and dad's sausage dogs, I haven't been able to leave the house much. Cause I get worried that they're going to be really anxious about me leaving. Um which don't come at me people that know how to train their dogs. Cause I know that

Phoebe:

I bet people would be like, so many people would listen to me. Like, no, no, no. A

Anna:

Anyway, so we've got this little sidewalk up the side of our house, it's almost like this little path to, move the rubbish up and down. Yeah. Anyway, so I ran the 30 seconds up and down there. It's like 20 meters or so. And the dogs came along with me for a bit. I almost got tripped over, but most importantly, my foot did not hurt and I didn't even feel it at all. And I was so excited. So yes, that is my best. Run of the week.

Phoebe:

How good welcome back to best run of the week how bloody exciting

Anna:

happy to be here. Oh

Phoebe:

how like the, um, Metro for best run can change your like 30 seconds up and down the side of your house. It's amazing. I'm back. I love that energy. Um, but yeah, I feel like it's kind of, it's, it's kind of best case scenario. Like stress reaction shows that it was the right, really the right call for you to stop and you wouldn't have been able to train through it. You would have just turned it into a stress fracture and had to have way longer off.

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

that is what it is, but it also means that because you then fully rested while you're on holidays, you're now kind of almost back into the period where you can start, as you say, like adding on some load and starting to run a little bit again, which is so

Anna:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe:

Whereabouts in your foot was it by the way? Was it

Anna:

It was,, no, it is my medial cuneiform for all you bony kind of people out there.

Phoebe:

Whereabouts, but whereabouts if you were to say that in

Anna:

okay. That's a good question. So it is like the top of your foot. I want to show you because I'm not very good at explaining.

Phoebe:

Oh, oh

Anna:

there.

Phoebe:

Okay. We'll

Anna:

Yeah. For everyone listening and not for me because I can't see my foot right now. It's pretty much, if you were to measure from the tip of your toe to the back of your heel, it's literally, right in the middle on the top of your foot. yeah,

Phoebe:

me about it, you did say it was just near your heel,

Anna:

yeah. So that actually is still a little bit sore, but they were saying that's completely different. So we've got a couple of explanations. The heel pain they think is from I've been barefoot in the gym doing, squats, but because I've got tight ankles, I do them on top of a plate. they think I've hurt my heel a little bit from the pressure that my heel was under on the plate, like lifted off the ground. And then my podiatrist said, you know how my foot started hurting as I was getting back into running, as I'd had. Three weeks of not really doing much at all. Obviously there was a buildup, from all of the running that I was doing, but he thinks that probably from walking around Paris in my sneakers, which just have absolutely no support at all, doing like 20, 20, 000 plus steps. Wearing those each day, would have been not good for it at all because he said that like my feet would be used to the action of running in supported shoes and everything

Phoebe:

Yeah. Walking's

Anna:

in

Phoebe:

actually different load.

Anna:

yeah, um, which is sort of disappointing in a sense because I feel like I'm just frustrated at my past self. Like I should have just been wearing my runners around. But I thought that I wanted to look cool, so I didn't.

Phoebe:

Mmm, the age of Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's all learnings, right? I wouldn't have known that walking could give you a stress reaction. Like, I wouldn't have known that, like, that could happen. And, obviously, you were, like, kind of compensating a little bit for your Because your hammy was really sore at this time. So maybe that was, like, putting more

Anna:

It's like a bit of both, yeah. And I don't think it was, all the walking. I'm sure the running, playing into it as well. But yeah, it was difficult to throw those shoes out.

Phoebe:

Okay, which I'm sure you did with relish.

Anna:

I did, I did. I was I was like, F you. And they didn't respond. So they obviously, yeah.

Phoebe:

them.

Anna:

They didn't respond. So they obviously knew that they were being a bad, bad little boy. Anyway,

Phoebe:

no, that is so exciting that you're back. And so what is your next week or two look like? Are you slowly starting to? Increase your little walk

Anna:

Yeah, a minute on a minute off a couple of times, funnily enough, I think after the flight, and then also I haven't been doing my rehab for the last month because my foot's been sore and I've just been enjoying the holiday rather than going to the gym, as everyone knows. Um, so my hand is actually pretty sore, so I'm back into the gym and I think in a sense it will be good because it will probably mean that I can't get to a head of myself, with my foot, even though it's feeling good, because I need to

Phoebe:

You'll have to

Anna:

So I don't,

Phoebe:

them both up

Anna:

yeah, yeah.

Phoebe:

That's such a good mindset of being like, just manage them both, slowly load them both up. You can take them both seriously

Anna:

Yeah. And I have, I

Phoebe:

time.

Anna:

Yeah, and there's literally no rush, I'm just going to take it very slow, really enjoy getting back into things and really appreciating, What my body can do, hopefully.

Phoebe:

yeah,

Anna:

Um,

Phoebe:

Oh, so

Anna:

yeah. And what is your best run? I've just realized we've been going for

Phoebe:

Oh yeah, we've gotten carried away, that's okay, it's the last episode. Um, my best run of the week was on Sunday. As we've said, I'm in Copenhagen and on Sunday it was the Copenhagen half marathon,

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

partaking in, but I did really want to like, get out and get around it. And sort of fortuitously, I'd, I'd miss, temporarily misplaced my Garmin charger, was like, you know what, I'm just gonna do, I'll like, Run where I just like don't time it. I'm not gonna have any expectations. I'm just gonna get out there I'm like enjoy the atmosphere and It was the most beautiful day. I can't even tell you how like I stunning the weather was. Like, cool, but clear, no wind. It looked, felt like the whole city was out. Like, everyone was out. A, soaking up the sunshine, but B,

Anna:

Watching.

Phoebe:

nearly 30, 000 people doing this half marathon. It

Anna:

What?

Phoebe:

massive.

Anna:

Oh my gosh. I had no idea it was that big.

Phoebe:

I think that's right. I think it was huge. like,

Anna:

Let's fact check.

Phoebe:

no, no

Anna:

you went quiet. You went quiet, I thought it was the internet connection.

Phoebe:

can that be right? Um, no, I'm pretty sure someone said like 27, 000 people did it. And at the end, when I was watching like the, like the front pack finishing.

Anna:

000 people.

Phoebe:

Oh!

Anna:

been fact checked and you are correct.

Phoebe:

Yeah, it was huge. So yeah, at the end when I was watching people finish, some people were just starting. So

Anna:

Oh wow.

Phoebe:

yeah, which it was kind of a bit weird. I don't know if they just had big gaps between the groups, but God, I tell you what, this city loves a half marathon. There were DJs everywhere. There were flares going off. Everyone had air horns. It was just like

Anna:

Oh my gosh.

Phoebe:

and screaming. It was just a beautiful day. I have no idea how far I ran. I actually don't think I, I don't know, I was out and about for like over two hours, but I don't think I would have run for over like 50 minutes total of it. I was kind of just like running for a bit, stopping and cheering for a bit, running for a bit more, and it was really

Anna:

that's so nice. That's so, so nice. all right, let's do some quick fires because I feel like we sometimes say quick fires, but they never turn into quick fires, however, I really want to hear your 10 for yourself for training, cross training. Give it to me. Nice.

Phoebe:

A poor four. Yeah, it's not been my week. I actually, after that attempted long run, I spoke to my coach and he's like, Why don't you just have a couple days off? And I've just learned into that. I haven't run since then. So I might try and do like an easy 30 minutes tomorrow, but I think at this stage I'm much more focused on the recovery. Um, and I'll hopefully get a couple runs in before the marathon next week, but I, I feel like there's nothing I can do at this stage. It's just, just chill and enjoy

Anna:

Just chill. Yeah. Very

Phoebe:

yes, I'm taking a leap out of, out of the anacoldin recovery book, just leaning into, leaning

Anna:

lean into the rest.

Phoebe:

yeah. Um, what about you?

Anna:

I'll give myself an 8 out of 10. I've been doing, I've done something every single day, some cross training, some form of cross training. I've swum, I've gone on an elliptical, I've gone on the stationary bike. They are pretty boring, but I will give the listeners a tip that I didn't know until recently. When you're, this is probably. really old news, but if you're on the elliptical, watch something on Netflix. I've been watching the perfect couple, which is so trashy. It's this American series, and it is so bad that it's so good you know those shows that you are just like i'm not doing i'm not sort of progressing in any sense of life like i'm not learning anything like i'm probably killing brain cells by watching but i love it I've made a rule for myself that I can only watch it if I'm on the elliptical, so.

Phoebe:

Oh,

Anna:

Like right now I really want to go on the elliptical tomorrow because I really want to watch the next episode

Phoebe:

You're like, I actually love the elliptical now. You Tell me about how has your mindset been? Taking

Anna:

Surprisingly a little bit lower. I think probably I'd give myself a six. because there, I have a lot of trepidation about getting back into running and, hurting myself. so, uh, yeah, I feel like I've been overthinking things and maybe being a little bit anxious about getting back into everything. but I think I just kind of keep telling myself that, you know, I'm not the one deciding what I'm doing. Like I obviously, give feedback to the like professionals that I'm seeing about how I'm feeling, but I am like, doing what they tell me to

Phoebe:

their advice. Yeah.

Anna:

Yeah. Cause they're the ones that know what they're talking about.

Phoebe:

is like the trepidation coming from fear of like, re injuring yourself? Or

Anna:

I think so. Yeah. And I think we've spoken about it before, but I just don't think I'm that in tune with listening to my body

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

or like, it's not even listening to my body, but I don't know. Yeah, what my body

Phoebe:

you've just got a high pain threshold.

Anna:

Yeah, I don't know. So I'm worried. I'm worried. Um, yeah, that, that's what makes me nervous. So that's why I keep kind of coming back to the thing of like, I'm giving feedback to the professionals, but then I'm doing what they're telling me to do. So, you know, and also I know that like recovery is not a linear, so I know that there's going to be setbacks and stuff, but just sort of like. Trying to reframe that and be like, that's all right. maybe as well because I feel like I'm about to have a lot of FOMO. Um, but yeah.

Phoebe:

I, uh, it, the, I feel like often the hardest part is like, Yeah, the race day or whatever and you're like, you're so happy and excited for your friends, but you're just like, oh my god I can't believe I'm not I don't get to like be there and

Anna:

yeah, yeah.

Phoebe:

that is that is tough but then I feel like what you're doing really well with your mindset as well is like I think a lot of the time with return from injuries people are so desperate to just like get back to full fitness straight away and that's when the risk is whereas I think you've got such a good perspective of there is literally no rush. I just want to like return to running as safely and as strongly as possible and that's what means that you're going to be fine because you're not putting yourself under that like additional pressure. Um, but yeah, maybe like. Be kind to yourself, like, treat yourself that day, or whatever. If you're feeling like a bit of FOMO, like, you know, take,

Anna:

Some retail therapy.

Phoebe:

Or reach out therapy, exactly.

Anna:

sneakers.

Phoebe:

yeah, yeah. Shove them in your old sneaker's face. Um, or

Anna:

Make them feel real bad.

Phoebe:

Try and go to like, um, do some like sauna and cold plunge stuff and that sort of thing. I don't know, like do things that treat yourself, make yourself feel good.

Anna:

Yeah, that's a really good idea. Maybe I'll, like, take myself for a massage or something like that.

Phoebe:

Yeah, that's a good idea.

Anna:

Um, how's your mindset?

Phoebe:

My mindset's pretty good or it actually is pretty good, I would say. I think, um, I am really focusing on controlling the controllables and I'm just thinking about like, All I can do is, like, what are the levers within my control right now, and how can I make sure that I'm doing the best I can to, do well in those areas in the lead up to Berlin. And, I don't know, I was, I'm not, I'm not nervous at all. And maybe that's, maybe it's because it's still a week away. I think I'm, I'm quite like accepting of like, oh, well, it's not been a good block and it is what it is and just enjoy running it. But I think, I think the only negative to my mindset is, so sorry, my score for my mindset is eight. I think the only reason it's not higher is because I do, I do just feel a bit sad sometimes when I like not race aside, just like I miss feeling good when I run. I

Anna:

Yeah, because it's such a big part of our life. Like, yeah, Like, that's part of it that's addictive, is feeling good running and pushing yourself. But pushing yourself's only fun if you're feeling good.

Phoebe:

If you feel

Anna:

Like you don't want to push yourself if you don't. Yeah,

Phoebe:

and I was having a little chat with one of my friends. Oh, you've met Beth. Um, she, yeah, reached out after the last episode because she had a, like, quite a similar experience with, like, feeling really exhausted and everything. And actually hers sounded, like, hers sounded much worse. But, she's, like, feeling so much better now. And it was just really great hearing from her and hearing how, like, even though there's no Lexi, which obviously we knew there wasn't going to be. Just hearing how like, of course these things pass and now she's back feeling better than ever. And like, it was just a matter of like giving herself the time to rest. So, um, yeah. Hearing things like that makes me feel, it just reminds you that this is a point in time thing. I'm a bit run down. It is what it is. And I'll be back

Anna:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's not forever.

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

What's that saying? This too shall pass.

Phoebe:

This too shall pass. That's beautiful, Adam. Yeah. Um, okay, what about, what is your recovery score?

Anna:

My, for my recovery score, I, uh, will give myself a, a five. It hasn't been great because I've been excited to cross train and to do a little walk run but I'm obviously not doing a whole heap so I don't feel sore at all so I feel like I have overlooked it a little but this is probably when it's really important to make sure I'm like new, like good new habits and everything in the recovery space. So yeah, that is my aim for this week. yeah, I really want to focus on, um, getting in some good habits recovery wise. Uh, what about you? I assume yours is going to be pretty big.

Phoebe:

for, I think this is my first 10 out of 10 for recovery, but

Anna:

Huge!

Phoebe:

a 10 out of 10 for recovery. Anna, you should see, I'm going to take some screenshots and send you, you should see my aura ring scores. My resilience has gone through the roof. It's like a, I'm nearly at strong, which is the first time I've ever had resilience and strong. I've been getting eight hours sleep every night. Um, my heart rate variability is like back into peak, peak mode and my resting heart rate is like way back down to where it normally is. I think that, yeah, it, my aura is so happy with me and all it, like. I did just really focus on like, it's just the basics. It's like, I've been going, getting into bed much earlier, like not Getting up at the crack of dawn. I haven't been drinking any alcohol, like little things like that. But then also have been carving out time to do things like, saunas and Danish saunas are insane. They do these, I've done two now of these, like they do these classes. Have we spoken about, have I told you about the classes that I've done?

Anna:

No, you have told me one time, which doesn't sound great for your recovery. Sorry, I'm surprised that you give yourself a 10. You

Phoebe:

No,

Anna:

time after the sauna you had to sit down or something. You were like, it was a voice note and you were hyperventilating on the voice note and you were about to faint.

Phoebe:

okay, okay. So there were two, there were two sauna sessions.

Anna:

Talk me through.

Phoebe:

in Copenhagen they do these sessions where you, um, it's like a class, it goes for 90 minutes and you have three sessions in the sauna and in their kind of 12 to 15 minute sessions they are, like, imagine an Australian sauna and then forget it and imagine something like a million times hotter. Like, it's not. It's actually

Anna:

Oh, really?

Phoebe:

at all. I can't explain to you how hot, like, all you're thinking, all I've had to think to myself the whole time is like, don't panic, don't panic, you're safe, you're okay,

Anna:

It's that hot.

Phoebe:

that, I actually can't tell you. And so, they, they pour water on the rocks, and they, but they put essential oils in the water, so you go through all these different,

Anna:

Oh,

Phoebe:

oils which is really cool and then the person running it they have these like massive like black fans that are like a meter wide and they like fan the hot air at you and it's just like these waves like from a furnace and they kind of get hotter and hotter each time. And the first one I did was actually like a bit more manageable probably. I still found it like unbelievably hot. But in the last, so they ramp up the heat each time, and in the last round, he like, blasted it, and everyone started like, um, Not just yelling, making these like, guttural, like, growl, like, loud, growling grunts, like, just like, ahhh, like, releasing sound. The whole sauna was doing it, and I was like, looking around, like, I'm finding this really hard, but no part of me wants to, like, growl right now. Um, but anyway, it was cool. I guess it was, like,

Anna:

You don't strike me as a growler

Phoebe:

Yeah, no, the growl, I guess, I wouldn't say. Um,

Anna:

imagining this like big room of people being like gr,

Phoebe:

No, like that, but so much louder, like,

Anna:

but like aggressively.

Phoebe:

Yeah, it was so hectic, and I was like, Oh my god, this is insane. Then the second one I did I went to a different one and this one felt even like, more authentic. Like, no one spoke English and it was just like, the heat was like, like, I can't even describe. And he did say to me, um, after the first round, he's like, Oh, if you're feeling dizzy. don't go straight in the water, like take, cause there's a, you jump in the water, like cold plunge after it. But I was so hot. I was like, I just need to jump in the water. So I just like jumped in and immediately I was like, Oh my God, I'm going to pass out. I was so

Anna:

Oh, wow.

Phoebe:

had to like float on my back for a few minutes till like my vision came back. Anyway, we like went back in, did it again, did it again. And then the last one. Um, we're in the middle of the last hot round and the instructor was like struggling so much that he left and went and like jumped in the water and came back and in that time we were all just like baking in there. And then most of the people in the sauna left, it was like me and maybe like six or seven other people by the

Anna:

You're like, I can do

Phoebe:

just too out of it. I was like, I can't leave. You

Anna:

yeah, yeah. I couldn't possibly leave.

Phoebe:

jumped in the water for the last time and I had the similar like experience of like getting really dizzy and I started floating and I swear to God, and maybe this is when I sent you a voice note after this. I swear I was like hallucinating in the water. I was like lying there, closing my eyes, and I could just see like all these colours, and I just felt like I was like floating through space, and then I

Anna:

Are you sure you didn't pass out? It kind of sounds like you

Phoebe:

opened my eyes, everyone had gotten out of the water, and was like back at the thing, and I was like, how long have I been lying in here for? Anyway, I do think I slept so well both nights after that and they really helped us sick most of the week and they really helped, I reckon, get rid of the sickness. So, anyway, that's why my recovery is a 10 out of

Anna:

really cool. Um, amazing.

Phoebe:

and

Anna:

Oh, last one. Best one. I am so pumped.

Phoebe:

Oh,

Anna:

So as the listeners, yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry. I got carried away. I didn't even tell you what I was going to start talking about. Fueling. So we made a challenge to eat a hundred grams of protein a day, Vego style or pescatarian for me, because I'm normally a meat eater. Um, Tell me, how'd you go? Well one, did you do it? If you didn't do it each day, then you're not allowed to give yourself a 10 out of 10.

Phoebe:

No, I only had one day that I didn't do it.

Anna:

So it's a 9.

Phoebe:

Do you know what? I was going to give myself a 9 anyway because I, I, sorry, my fueling went really well this week. I've worked so hard on my protein. I cannot believe how, um, deficient I must have been in protein. Like, I had to be so intentional to hit 100 grams, thinking about it all day. It's kind of exhausting. Um.

Anna:

I know, I've got the vibe that you're a bit exhausted by it.

Phoebe:

by the end, oh, especially because I ran out of protein about a halfway through the week, which initially I was landing on really heavily, but I give myself a 9 because I have, for like 15 years I haven't had dairy since I realized I had an intolerance to cow's milk protein, um, but this year I sort of started slowly integrating some dairy back in. Because I know that it's so good for you from a protein perspective and I had been told like maybe you can sort of like build in some tolerance again at some point and so I thought I would and I've been upping that and upping that and then with the increase in protein I've just been like going really hard at yoghurt in particular and I think I realized that that actually was making me feel quite sick Uh, I just like had no appetite ever and And maybe I just wasn't hungry because I was so well fueled for my protein, but it just like wasn't sitting that well. So yeah, minus one for that, but have since cut out dairy again, but also I haven't told you this, but I had meat.

Anna:

What?

Phoebe:

Yeah, once,

Anna:

What? Why?

Phoebe:

well, it's a whole thing. Well, I'd been having,

Anna:

to?

Phoebe:

been, I'll, I'll talk you through it. So I'd been, I just decided to not have Dara anymore. And I was talking to, um, younger brother Joe on the phone. He specifically asked me not to name him in this because he's like, I don't want the vegetarians coming at me. But he was being like, he was saying like, okay,

Anna:

I'll defend you Jo.

Phoebe:

Like, yeah, have some meat. You cut out dairy. Like the easiest thing is just like slowly find a way to like integrate a little bit of meat. So I had that in the back of my head. And then I caught up with some of my parents, friends who live in Copenhagen. I caught up with them for a coffee one afternoon that was so lovely. And they were like, we're gonna take you to this place for dinner. It's like this cool, like, it's like this market. It's really cool. There's like this store that we go to, we love it. It's so good. And in my head I was like, oh, I bet it's meat. But like, just go with it. Just like don't, don't make you deal out of it. Like this is your chance to just like do it. Anyway, so we got to the market stall and they were like, it was a um, duck. Roast duck sandwich, and I was like, that's fine. It's like a chicken sandwich, like a chicken sandwich. I loved, I used to love chicken sandwiches, like just eat it. And

Anna:

I could not. That makes me

Phoebe:

duck is not, turns out,

Anna:

don't like dark. Too

Phoebe:

well, yeah, it turns out ducks just not, not anything like chicken. It was like so meaty and like stuck in my throat, and it was just like, it was really rich duck. It

Anna:

I think we're gonna have to put a trigger warning on this.

Phoebe:

Slab of dark. And then the worst part was, the mum disappeared for a bit and then she came back with like Danish meatballs and shrimp and all this stuff. And I was like, here, I've got us some more things. And I was like, Oh my God, I can't say it now. Like they've already bought all this stuff. So then I tried to eat some Danish meatball. I didn't know what it was. It was like pork or something. I was just feeling so like really not enjoying it at this stage. And so I actually end up saying no to the shrimp. I just like couldn't get it down. And I sort of like hid my duck in my sandwich and just said I was going to eat it for dinner later. So it was a bit of a disastrous return to meat. I haven't gone back since, but

Anna:

Oh my gosh, that is so funny. That is like, that's, yeah, that's, and that's like so many different animals as well.

Phoebe:

many different animals. A hard launch back into

Anna:

It's a hard launch. That is the hardest launch into me. I, if that was, if I was going to feed you, I would like sprinkle you maybe with a little bit of like, Chicken mince or like breast or something to just, or like slow cook it so it's really, like can't really tell, but that is hardcore. I honestly don't think I would, I'm sorry vegetarians, I like meat but I don't think I'd go so well with a duck sandwich.

Phoebe:

Oh, dark, massive, dark sandwich.

Anna:

job, I'm very proud of you. I'm honestly, and I say that hand on heart, I'm genuinely really proud of you.

Phoebe:

Thank you, Anna. Thank you for your support. And thank you for accompanying me on this journey. Did you hit your 100 grams of protein every day? Yes, I did.

Anna:

I did. I mean, I was cheating a little bit because I was able to eat fish. So I didn't really find it that challenging, but I think I may have mentioned to you, I just don't think I have the thing in your brain that tells you that you're full. So eating A lot for me is just not a challenge. Like, I just didn't find it hard at all.

Phoebe:

look, it's a joy, honestly,

Anna:

Honestly, it's a joy. I was like, sick. I get to like, have a little bit more, I get to have an extra rockabish today. but yeah, so I also in saying that I am at home and I feel like Being, like, surrounded by things that you're used to, and obviously, you know what's at Coles, what's at Woolworths, like, you know what you're getting. I think as well, I'm probably very used to looking like I know a lot about the like nutritional content of different products purely because I look at it whenever I'm trying something new because I check to see if it's gluten free. So I feel like I kind of

Phoebe:

you are

Anna:

that knowledge without even kind of realizing. Um, but yeah, I, I really liked it.

Phoebe:

our main topic this week is race strategies. So we're going to talk through two kind of things here. First of all, what to consider when you're coming up with a race plan. Talk you through a few different points there and then we'll go through three different kind of classic examples of a race strategy that you might use for your half marathon or your marathon or whatever race really you're building up for. so Anna tell us about what should we consider when you're making your race plan.

Anna:

Yeah. So I feel as if I think we would, I said reflections like 20 times last week, but I'm going to say it again because I feel like a week out or a week ish out or a few days out when you're thinking about a race plan is an opportunity for you to reflect on the training that you have. and look back whether you use Strava or Garmin,, just sort of take into account what you have been able to do and also what you haven't been able to do. Like, I think it's really important to be really honest with yourself. Um, if you had a plan you were sticking to, did you complete it? What hurdles got in the way? And I think from there, you know, That's sort of the building block of making a race plan.

Phoebe:

On that as well though, like, I don't think it should, you should be thinking like, oh, I didn't hit every training session, so therefore.

Anna:

no, no

Phoebe:

no one has, yeah, which I know is not what you're saying, but I feel like when you're reflecting on your training book, no one has a perfect training book. Everyone has like, they're sick, they got injured, they got busy, they lost motivation, like, it's less about being critical of like, I didn't hit everything, and more about like, setting realistic expectations with yourself about like, okay, what was my performance like, and how do I translate that into a race day plan. Mm.

Anna:

wants to run as fast as possible. but I feel like the key to actually do that is yeah, be really self aware and also, be like prepared. So actually make a plan or good segue into the next point is making two plans. Um, so I do want to chat a little bit about that.

Phoebe:

Yeah. I forget how we first heard about backup plans. I feel like maybe you brought it up like a few seasons ago or someone said to us this idea of like, having a backup plan in a race and I've never really thought of it before but I really like it particularly for a longer race where there is a lot of room for things to go wrong and you don't want to like have a goal and realize you're off it and then everything falls apart because you're like, I don't know like what to try for anymore. And so you might have an original plan of like, I want to, you know, try and stick to this pace for this long. But if you're trying that and it's, it feels too much effort, then have your, like, have your plan B or your plan C of like, okay, cool. I'm restrategizing. I'm going to pull back for the next 10ks but then, try and be able to build up a little bit more towards the end or, you know, some variation of that.

Anna:

yeah, yeah. Um, and should we speak to sort of like different examples of race strategies?

Phoebe:

Let's talk through some race strategies So one race strategy that you hear people talking about a lot is negative splits and negative splits is essentially means the second half of your race is faster than the first half of your race. And this might be counterintuitive because I think for a lot of people it's sort of like go out hard and hold on for as long as possible. But actually most PBs and like the fastest times are often run through negative splits. It's like a sign that you've been able to run a really controlled, race where you've sort of been able to get the most out of yourself without hitting a wall where your, pace like significantly drops off.

Anna:

Yeah, I if you look at people's pay base, or even if you look at, Just say the Olympics, for example. Oh, actually I take that back because the Olympic course had heaps of hills in the second half. So that is probably not

Phoebe:

did you see they all still did no the winners all did negative splits for the Olympics

Anna:

they really? Yeah. Okay. Point proven. Yeah. I think the best way, yeah, I think the best way to actually run a successful marathon is to try to negative split it because often that will mean that because the fatigue sets in in a marathon or even a half marathon because they are quite long distances even if you go out quite slow or like on the conservative side to try for that negative split like quite often that will end up just meaning you actually run an even you marathon or half marathon because obviously like external variables get in the way or, you know, like some things might not actually like go exactly, you might not feel quite as good as

Phoebe:

get tired,

Anna:

As you, yeah, yeah, exactly. But if you, if you go out way, way too fast, or if you are a little bit too ambitious, you can really, uh, well one, stuff up the race in terms of performance, but two, which is most important considering that like we're all amateurs and I assume most of the people that are listening are. I don't think we have too many professionals listening to us but even if we do the most important thing is to actually try to enjoy what you're doing and I just don't think you can really do that ever. Like I've never enjoyed a race where I've gone out too hard. It just, it, it's not that enjoyable.

Phoebe:

yeah, yeah, I would say negative splits are really hard to do well. I think they work well with people who've done heaps of long runs, and heaps of big sessions, and they know that they can still be running strong at the end of a marathon. But for a lot of, amateur runners, and, definitely for me, like, negative splits would be, obviously that's the dream, but, Like, is it necessarily realistic? It's more like have that mindset, like you said, of like, not going out too hard, feeling like you can enjoy it. I think what a lot of people, what we hear, a lot of people talking about this is another strategy, which is like, have like a goal pace, like a marathon pace, and basically just like have your watch set so that it's letting you know. Also that say every 5Ks, you see if you're on that pace, and try and try and stick to that. So that would be basically trying to run like the same pace the whole way through. And, again, I feel like this works well for people who've done a fair bit of training and know what their marathon pace is. Like, I don't think for any marathon I've done before, I would have known what my marathon pace was. So it's all well and good to have a goal. But, I also feel like this one, it's probably a step down from negative splits, but you still probably have to have done a fair bit of training to know what your marathon. Paces, would you

Anna:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I also think the issue with that is that it doesn't take into account, how you're feeling on the day, whether or not you're going through a good patch or a bad patch, whether or not the moment in the course is a little bit uphill or a little bit downhill. And I think that only, I think it is a really great patch. tool, but I don't think your whole race should be built, like exclusively on that because it, I, I can think it, I really do think it can lead to a lot of race anxiety. Like even myself in the past, there've been races where, you know, I've looked down and I'm not running the pace that I thought, whether it be faster or slower. and it's really kind of like freaked me out. mentally in a sense, because I'd been like, Oh gosh, like it's getting away from me. Or, Oh my gosh, I'm going too fast. Like, I'm gonna feel this later. So I think the, I think the, the basis of all of them, whether it be a year or going for the negative split strategy or you're sort of trying to focus on a marathon pace, I think you really need to run to feel,

Phoebe:

Well, let's, no, let's talk about, yeah, this as like the third strategy, we'll call it like run to feel, and, that is very much having an idea of, you still have an idea of what the effort level should be like at a point in the race, but you run to that effort level, because as you say, Emma, like different races, different days.

Anna:

mm

Phoebe:

It can be, it can be entirely independent. Like I know we said before about like, look at your training, but this can literally be like entirely independent of your training, anything like that. You might feel really, really good, or you might not feel good. And you've got to be able to listen to your body. And that can change, as you say, throughout the race as well. Like you might feel terrible. And then a few days later, you might feel good again. I think for, I did a marathon, the most recent marathon I did, which is like four years ago now. I, this was the strategy that my coach Gary gave me. He said,

Anna:

mm.

Phoebe:

just like get to the start line, just like feel good. Like, that's all you should think about. And I took that really seriously and I like didn't really look at my splits at all. And yeah, I, I, my goal marathon pace in my head had been to run three hours, but I didn't even do the maths to figure out what pace that would have to be. And I ran, I ended up doing like faster than that by just, and if I'd tried to like stick to that pace, I probably would have because I probably my mind would have told myself like that's what you're capable of so do

Anna:

Yeah, yeah,

Phoebe:

having the freedom to just be like all right I'm just going to completely like soak this up run with a group with a pace that like find a good group sit in with them and soak it up and feel good and it was the best advice I've ever had. I've been given and it's, you know, I haven't spoken too much to Gary about Berlin but what we have spoken about he's been like, yeah you're just gonna need to like get to the start line and be able to listen to your body and just like race that way and make it feel good

Anna:

think running to feel is quite liberating, because Like these devices that we wear are just insane. Like they are amazing. I love my garment. but I do think in a way they can really sort of like sometimes be a hindrance, especially in a race or something. I feel like if you're a little bit too consumed by it, like at the end of the day, we are our own best friend. body, like they are a guide, but like we do have a brain, like we can actually think for ourselves and listen to your body. And I feel like that's really important to do, particularly in endurance events.

Phoebe:

because what a shame if you finish the race and you're like, I spent the whole race checking my sweats and feeling like elated or frustrated based on whether I was, rather than just being like, soak it up, enjoy the race, run at a pace that feels good and then you'll finish it and you'll be like proud of yourself regardless.

Anna:

Yeah, nice. I like that.

Phoebe:

Let's wrap up with our final cheeky team member of the week. This segment is one that we do each week. We post a question in our Strava group. And the Cheeky Brains Trust, i. e. anyone in the group, gets back to us with a bunch of amazing answers. and this segment as the podcast is, is sponsored by On. As On loved to say, a marathon is a team sport, and we completely agree with that, and that's what this Cheeky Team Member of the Week segment is all about. So, what was the question this week?

Anna:

So this week we wanted to know what is the best pre marathon meal? we want some, well we, I say we, you, slash our other friends of Berlin, also anyone that's doing a race anytime soon, if they've signed up to a fun run, it might be Melbourne Mara that I think is fun. It might be Queenstown a few weeks after that, wherever you are in the world and any fun run that you want to do. it's often hard to know what to eat pre your run without upsetting your tummy, but making yourself feel energized. So we are. the cheeky community what their best advice was and our last cheeky team member of the week is drumroll Maddie Lindholm. Um, go Maddie. Um, so go Maddie. So she said she's a big believer in thinking that the fueling prep starts the week before the race. So her tips are increasing your carb consumption 2 3 days out of your race, meaning having toast, rice, pasta, pizza, oats leading up to race day eve helps you give your body a good base without needing to cram things in the night before.

Phoebe:

the next thing she says, is she starts to slightly reduce her fibre intake from two days out, which helps with managing race day toileting, but also makes sure she doesn't avoid it totally as, you know, you do still need some fibre. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Anna:

Race day Eve, she avoids having too much caffeine, ensuring that each meal has carbs. Her pre race meal the night before is literally pasta and a tomato can with some parmesan and basil if she's feeling good. She also has some pillar performance magnesium the three nights prior to help aid muscle recovery.

Phoebe:

Oh, that's the other thing I've been doing that I reckon has been helping my sleep so much. I'm back on the magnesium

Anna:

Uh,

Phoebe:

a hot,

Anna:

We

Phoebe:

good.

Anna:

love

Phoebe:

Um, We love it. And then number four, she says on race day she gets up, one and a half to two hours before the race and has two to three pieces of toast, depending on race length, peanut butter and jam for protein and sugar, and has it with a white coffee.

Anna:

Yeah, she also says that it's important to try whatever works for you three to four weeks out before the race, so you can be confident leading in that you will too feel energized and not have an upset stomach, an upset tummy. now, I, final word, This is the last time we're going to be on the pods pre you completing Berlin. And I know that it's something that we have both been looking forward to this whole year. And I know that the Mara build hasn't quite gone to plan for you, but I just want you from someone that is not going to be there and not participating. I want you to like, just lap it up as much as you can and try to enjoy it. it's not often that you actually get to race a world major or like so many people never do. And Even though you haven't completed the, all of your training the way that you wanted to, I feel like you just got to try to, yeah, enjoy it as much as possible. Like it will be so, so cool. You're in Berlin, you're on the other side of the world, like you're going to be there for the weekend with friends. You're doing a few cool on things doing a shakeout run. I just reckon it's something that you'll look back on in like 10, 20 years and just be like, well, you could either be one annoyed at yourself for not being like, God, I wish I could just. enjoy it more and just like, I don't know, just like take it a little, not take it a little less seriously, but I feel like it's something that you'll, you'll look back on and you'll either be really glad that even though, you, like, got a, like, got handed like a, what is it? A hand of cards that you, like, weren't super happy with. Given? Yeah,

Phoebe:

Delt. You didn't knock the

Anna:

You got dealt a hand of cards that you might not be ha like, might not have planned. Um, I think you'd be really happy if, yeah, you just really, yeah, just embrace it. 42Ks of heaven.

Phoebe:

thank you, Anna. That was a, that was actually the perfect prep talk. I feel like I'm going to like replay that to myself when I'm in Berlin, like the night before the race and just be like, yeah, that's what it's about. Soak it up. And, um, so it has been such a, amazing journey to go on with you, even though, as we said, it hasn't really, panned out exactly how we expected and we set goals like the best thing about one of the best things about doing this podcast has been I don't know these check ins I think they keep they keep us accountable to like why we run and what it's all about and

Anna:

Yeah, definitely.

Phoebe:

think you've been a really amazing role model to me but to everyone who's had an injury over the past Um, kind of eight weeks as you sort of like processed it, dealt with it, been able to like reframe it and, and be so positive about it. And even though I know how heartbreaking it is for you to not be there, like the fact that you are still just being such an amazing supporter of all of us and making the most of your circumstances, it's very inspiring. So,

Anna:

I'm so pumped. I'm actually a little bit sad that I'm not going to have like live cameras on all of you next Sunday afternoon, Melbourne time. But yes, you best believe I will be refreshing those live tracking apps all the time. Um, so for the last time before you are a Berlin Marathoner, Thank you for joining us on this really long episode of us waffling on about a little bit of some stuff and a little bit of nothing. And also keep your eyes peeled for our, for Ted on our Instagram stories.

Phoebe:

Exactly! Keep your eyes filled for Ted and keep your eyes filled for Al. End of Season Survey, which is going to be released with this episode. Check the show notes and we'll put it on our Instagram as well. We've got a lot of big ideas for other things we could do, but we'd really love your input in them. So please help out and there will be some cheeky merch prizes off the back of it and

Anna:

I

Phoebe:

I think that's it I think that's

Anna:

think we,

Phoebe:

Three what?

Anna:

Thank you all for joining us. Um, we really appreciate your support and we are so proud of the community that we have, and we just absolutely love it. So thank you for coming along on the Tiki journey and. We can't wait to be in your ears next week for a little bonus F. It won't be on Monday because Phoebe will be recovering and having a little party post Berlin, hopefully. Well, actually she's under strict instruction to do so, um, by me. But yes, we'll be in your ears sometime next week.

Phoebe:

Bye