Cheeky Run Club

Let's talk about... sleep

• Anna Coldham & Phoebe Pincus • Season 4 • Episode 2

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Happy Monday cheeky friends!

On today's show: we’re talking about the relationship between sleep and running, something that we started to learn the importance of in season three. We are lucky enough to have sleep expert Dr Olivia Knowles on the show to talk us through how sleep can impact your running. Liv did her Bachelor and Honours of Exercise and Sport Science before going on to do her PhD. Her research in her doctorate explores the impact of inadequate sleep on strength training and muscle health in females. You can find out more about her business Sleep Ed here.

Sponsor shoutout: Kic has made a new strength for running program, including 16 masterclasses to get you feeling strong for your next run! You can use the code CHEEKYRUN for one month free. Thank-you to Kic for making this episode of Cheeky possible.

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, Tiktok, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

Music produced by Hugh Raper. Logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

Phoebe:

Cheeky Run Club recognises that every day, we live, work and run on Aboriginal land.

Anna:

We're proud to say that this episode is sponsored by Kick and their brand new physio approved Strength for Running Collection.

Phoebe:

Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello Anna and hello listeners.

Anna:

On today's episode, we're talking about the relationship between sleep and running, something that we started to learn the importance of last season. We are so excited to welcome a very special expert guest on the show. Not only our good friend, but our very own expert on all things sleep related, Dr. Olivia Knowles. We chatted to Liv earlier today to learn all about the relationship between sleep and running, which will be the main topic this week. And then next week we're going to learn about how to optimize your sleep.

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

it

Phoebe:

Um, yeah, it was actually such an interesting conversation. I'm very excited for everyone to get to listen to it.

Anna:

know. I just like, as I think I said to you before, selfishly, I just so enjoyed the chat because I felt like I was just a sponge,

Phoebe:

Yeah, I know. Also, it was meant to be one episode. And we got Like five minutes in and we're like, there's no

Anna:

Yeah, yeah, sorry interrupt. This is now two episodes.

Phoebe:

we do get a bit sidetracked a few times because there is so much that unpack.

Anna:

much. Um, later on in the show, I want to ask Phoebe slash the listeners a question about being lazy. Um, but before we get into that,

Phoebe:

Very interested.

Anna:

it off with our notable runs of the week. Phoebes, give me your, give me your worst run experience, running experience this week.

Phoebe:

so we decided to slightly extend this, um, to, to not just refer to our best, worst runs, but any running related experience, which as we spoke about last week, could be something to do with fueling, recovery, strength training, anything like that. My worst running related experience this week was fueling related. Um, so when Sean and I were traveling overseas, we decided to Try and get a bit more into cooking. Because both of us don't really enjoy cooking. So we decided maybe one night a week we'll try and cook something together, which we never do. Yeah.

Anna:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

Phoebe:

also, when I, when I say cook, I mean like actually cook something. Whereas normally I feel like I just assemble a few things

Anna:

Um, yeah,

Phoebe:

cook something. Yeah, yes. And so we decided to try and cook lasagna last night, which, um, yeah. Cause I was like, you should know how to cook lasagna. That just seems like a good thing to know how to cook. Um, however, we didn't get started until a little bit late, not that late, maybe like a bit after maybe 7. 30 we maybe started cooking.

Anna:

started cooking lasagna at 7. 30.

Phoebe:

yeah, the recipe said one to two hours and in my mind I'm like, I'll do it in one.

Anna:

this recipe

Phoebe:

Three, yeah. And then anyway, it just like every single step went wrong. It was just unbelievably hard. It was like from scratch making all the different sauces. There's white sauce. There's red sauce.

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

There is so many sources. And like, literally at one point I was trying to make the white sauce. Have you made it before? Yeah. It's like my sauce meant. I'm just A ball of dough. I was like, this is not

Anna:

is not

Phoebe:

well. This is not going

Anna:

have made a white dumpling.

Phoebe:

Anyway, um, we didn't finish till 11.

Anna:

Oh My god,

Phoebe:

I'll show you a photo. Yeah. And we were both so angry by the end of it. Sean gave up like three times, just like,

Anna:

Oh, wait, that's the lasagna.

Phoebe:

I mean, that is after I tried to move it into a, um, container. I know.

Anna:

We'll pop up on our Instagram.

Phoebe:

It

Anna:

actually it looks like a pizza that's

Phoebe:

fallen

Anna:

off the table onto the ground and then you've tried to rescue it and put it back on the tray.

Phoebe:

That is brutal. That's a brutal assessment. So I sent a photo to my mum to be like, Mum, what, like, what did we do wrong? I was trying to call her and she wasn't answering. She said, can I call you later? And I was like, yes, I just need some cooking help. And then she didn't call me back. Anyway, so I sent her these I said it was way too wet, not sure what we did wrong. And she said, it looks like it needed a lot more cooking. Did you put it in the oven? I was like, yes, I put it in the oven. Of course I did. But yes, if any listeners have any, easy, fast to make, but yet you still feel like you've accomplished something by making it. Vegetarian recipes, high carb, high protein, let

Anna:

or less. Ten

Phoebe:

Yeah, less preferably. Um, what was your worst

Anna:

Wow, that

Phoebe:

experience?

Anna:

Um, my worst run is unfortunately run that we went on. It was really nice. It was this morning. It was a really nice morning. We had a great time. And we went with a friend, um,

Phoebe:

Anna trying not to name drop Grace Tame. But that, that just uh,

Anna:

Just a girl.

Phoebe:

But it's so sus to be like,

Anna:

friend. Yeah, that's so true. We're always like our friend Carly. We went with a friend. Anyway, and my hammy was just really sore and it's been feeling a little bit better. And I just feel like I've gone two steps backwards, which I know recovery isn't linear, but it's just a bit disheartening. So I was trying to enjoy the surrounds and our chats, but I just didn't really enjoy the run.

Phoebe:

get in the zone of a run. I remember you saying like every step you could feel it.

Anna:

It's just not nice. Um,

Phoebe:

do you think triggered that like to make it worse?

Anna:

Um, I don't want to say this cause I don't want it to be true, but we did go to a gym session yesterday morning. cause we were trying to do some strength stuff, but it was a little bit different. It obviously wasn't like a super controlled environment cause I wasn't purely just doing my rehab exercises. And I think that maybe aggravated it a little bit cause we were doing deadlifts. so I think that might be it. Have been it because I just that's the only thing that I've done differently in the last few

Phoebe:

Um, I

Anna:

Um, I did the session on

Phoebe:

Tuesday morning. But

Anna:

when I ran yesterday, it was completely fine. And normally you know, 24

Phoebe:

hours. And it sort of saves

Anna:

they sort of say with tendons, you'll know the results of doing something 24 hours after. so I was pleasantly surprised yesterday after doing a little bit of a session on Tuesday. So I think it might be the strength anyway. On a more positive note, tell me about your best

Phoebe:

slash run. Okay, my best?

Anna:

say today? No, actually

Phoebe:

No, actually I'm not. Although that was up there. I honestly enjoyed all my runs this week. I actually, that's why I said the lasagna. When I don't, I didn't have a bad run. I had a best run definitely was Tuesday morning. Anna and I both were back at track for the first time. Um,

Anna:

in so long. Yeah. Um,

Phoebe:

it was a beautiful morning, sunrise was lovely. It's so light in the mornings at the moment. And yeah, I did my first session post marathon. It was 10, 300 meters efforts with a 75 second standing recovery, which was a really nice session to come back to. Cause it's a lot of recovery and I didn't have, I'm not feeling very fit at all. So it was nice to just, Kind of get the legs taking over. Um, I

Anna:

really have any times to

Phoebe:

had no, yeah. And I think I had no pressure on myself at all. Um, and then the best part was for the last, like five, Izzy and Mel joined me. And you know, when you're not expecting

Anna:

me. Just

Phoebe:

have in your mind, you're running the session by yourself. Like, obviously all our friends are there, but I was doing the session by myself. Just made it so nice to be like, I don't know, just really

Anna:

nice to be like, I don't know, just really

Phoebe:

Anna, tell me about your best run of the

Anna:

your best run of the week. a really nice evening. I never normally run in the evenings and I've actually just been at a work drinks event and had an exorbitant amount of hot chippies. So I thought I would go to Faulkner Park, which is close to where I work for those who don't know it. It's a hot place. I think it's about two kilometers round. It's just ovals, really flat. It's so nice. You can have your dog off the lead. Anyway, I had taken Ted to this work event, so obviously I had Ted with me and wanted him to go for a little run around and I just thought, Obviously he's a puppy so you can't run them too much blah blah blah blah don't come at me.

Phoebe:

don't comment on that. Um, but,

Anna:

But I just took him for a little bit of a run so he did one lap with me and off the lead he's really good because he just follows me around

Phoebe:

Wait, he ran off the lead with you?

Anna:

Yeah we quite often yeah although he is a bit of a tripping hazard because he gets a bit excited so he looks up at you and just wants to

Phoebe:

Still, that is so good. Yeah, and still

Anna:

The amount of joy I felt from something so simple. As I said, it was a really nice evening. It was just me and him. I didn't have my headphones in. Oh, actually, sorry. Yes, I did. Oh, irrelevant. I had them in, but I wasn't actually listening to anything.

Phoebe:

Even weirder.

Anna:

I know because I took them and then I was like, I don't want to listen to anything. But then I didn't really know where to put them. So I just kept them

Phoebe:

listening.

Anna:

ears. Anyway, so it was just me and

Phoebe:

just me. That

Anna:

Yeah, jogging around the park. And I know that dogs just look happy when they're running because their tongues are kind of poking out. But it was just so much fun. And yeah, I was just smiling the whole time. It was the best. I don't know if he liked it. I told him that he liked it. And I'm telling myself that I liked it, so he must have liked it. but he was just, yeah, it was, it was

Phoebe:

the

Anna:

best run of the week.

Phoebe:

he was just like, oh, great! Just on the audio quality, I think we need to, because last season when we did our end of season survey, and thank you so much to everyone who filled it out easily, the number one piece of feedback we got was like, yeah, look a little bit of a drop in, um, audio quality, which is very fair because we were traveling around Europe and there are a lot of hazards in that space. And we were so excited to come back in this season, have great audio quality.

Anna:

quality.

Phoebe:

but Well, I

Anna:

Well, so Liv, so okay, for context, Liv left, we came back to sit back down on the couch,

Phoebe:

we were like, that was amazing. How good was that? Oh my God. So excited. We

Anna:

so much and then Phoebe's just sort of dived on the couch like a little kid has collapsed and just hands in her head being like, Oh no. Oh no. And he's holding the

Phoebe:

I, I saw the,

Anna:

SD

Phoebe:

I saw the sim card on the couch and I was. Oh my god, we didn't put the sim card in to the like voice recorder machine. And so none of it had recorded. And I was about to have a full on mental breakdown. And then luckily we, for the first time this episode, are using a new camera. It's a really good camera and has a microphone and we were sitting close to it. And so it's all recorded through the

Anna:

recorded It's all

Phoebe:

It's not going to be. the beautiful quality that you're getting in your ears right now but it's there so

Anna:

it is. It's

Phoebe:

Liv is also what 39 weeks pregnant and so we probably weren't gonna be able to get her back on after

Anna:

39 weeks pregnant. So we probably

Phoebe:

yeah i know

Anna:

able to get her back on us.

Phoebe:

Liv is an absolute hero and enjoy

Anna:

Enjoy!

For the main topic over the next two weeks, we are going to talk to you about all things sleep. We all know that neither of us are experts on the topic, so we have got Dr. Olivia Knowles on the show to walk us through it. So, before we start, we're going to give Liv a little bit of an intro. Liv did her Bachelor and Honours of Exercise and Sports Science before going on to do her PhD. Her research in her doctorate explores the impact of inadequate stress on training and muscle health in females, which is pretty bloody relevant to what we want to talk about. And over the last 10 years, she's been the AFLW high performance manager at Hawthorne and Western Bulldogs football clubs. She now works as a high performance coach. And earlier this year, she founded Sleep Ed, which empowers people with expert sleep education for better performance, productivity, health, and well being. She's also an avid runner and she's here with us today to share her knowledge and answer some of our burning questions on sleep and how it can impact performance on the track and life in general. And she is also potentially about to go into labor. So welcome Liv and her family. We are so excited to have you on the show. I reckon sleep was probably the number one thing that you were unexpected side plot of last season. I think it took training for a marathon for us both to like, feel really clearly that there is indeed a relationship between sleep and exercise. So I'm very excited to unpack that. maybe the best place to start is with the basics. Can you tell us why is sleep so important for running? So sleep is critical for us to be able to function on a day to day basis. obviously both cognitively and physically. So from a running perspective, sleep allows us to recover from our running sessions, allows our muscles and bones to adapt and then prepare us for the following sessions or races that we've got coming up as well. And what stages of sleep are most important for running, if any, or is it just sleep as a whole? Yeah, great question. So we go through different stages of sleep. The first two stages of sleep are what you know as light sleep, then you dip into deep sleep, which is stages three and four. And then we also have REM sleep, which is associated with dreaming, our body is in a state of paralysis, things like that. So a sleep cycle, where you move through all those stages, lasts for about 90 minutes, and you go through about 4 5 of them a night. We spend more time earlier in the night in deep sleep. So that deep sleep stage is where we get hormone release, things like growth hormone, testosterone, that are really important for regeneration and recovery of our muscle and bone and muscle tissue. As we move through the night, further into the night, we get more of that REM sleep, so more glucose gets sent to our brain, and instead we get more of that cognitive recovery or restoration. So, for example, you're going to be, if you've done a technique session with your running coach, you're going to be consolidating those memories from a technique perspective later in the night, but you're going to get your physical recovery earlier in the night when you've got more deep sleep. So does that mean it would impact sleep? Your recovery, what time you go to sleep at night, or when you talk about the first few hours versus the last, is that just in your sleep in general, no matter if you're going to bed at 9pm or 1am? It's more in general, so it, but if you increase the duration, the total duration of your sleep, You're going to expose yourself to more of that deep sleep and more of that REM sleep in total, right? So you're going to get more total recovery. but it doesn't matter as much the timing of the sleep. Yeah. And how do you know if you're actually getting enough sleep or what is there even a definition for like, what is enough sleep? Yeah. So it's individual for everyone. Um, the health foundations recommend seven to eight hours of sleep a night and seven is sort of that minimum, but you could be someone who needs. eight hours, nine hours, or you might be someone that can function well off six and a half. Really, it's going to be about you figuring out what you need. but particularly as a runner, you might need actually more sleep because you're functioning day to day plus adding a training volume and training load that requires more recovery time that means you need more sleep. And so how do you know, like, unless you're, I guess, rigorously tracking the amount of time you're asleep or in bed for, like, how do you know, are there cues that could tell you if you like. you're not sleeping enough or you're really well rested. Yeah. So daytime sleepiness is probably the key indicator. So if you are feeling sleepy during the day or you're waking up and you're not feeling refreshed, that's probably an indicator that you need more sleep. Um, if you're someone that feels like you need a nap during the day, again, it's probably because you're not getting enough sleep at night. Napping is a great strategy to help extend our sleep duration. but if you're getting enough sleep at night, you shouldn't need to nap during the day, yeah. Yeah, so, because I remember being told once you should like, the best sign that you're getting enough sleep is you wake up before your alarm. Like you shouldn't need an alarm to wake you up. But I, I just feel like that's no one, who doesn't live in London now? Is there anyone? Is it just everyone walking around the city? Is there anyone? I mean, that's like a product of modern society, right? That we are using our phones and using our alarms so much more. Um, we've become kind of like a 24 hour society, right? And that's why we have more people that are sleep deprived. Because they're on their phones more or they're shift working or things like that, um, or they're waking up to an alarm early in the morning. Um, I'm not against alarms. People are going to need them. People use them. Absolutely. Um, but if you can try and be waking up, um, at the top of a sleep cycle as such, so, you know, after a 90 minute sleep cycle, as opposed to in the middle of a sleep cycle, you're going to wake up feeling less groggy. Yeah. So is that, so when you do wake up and you are feeling. groggy, or you almost just feel like you just went to sleep, is that because you've probably woken up in the middle of a sleep cycle? Potentially, yeah. I mean, again, there could be a number of factors, but potentially, yeah. And then, um, is there a way to kind of like, well, one, what is, I've heard about this word restorative sleep, What is, what is that? And how do you know if you're, is it a thing? And how do you know if you're actually indeed getting that? mean, restorative sleep is probably just referring to being able to get yourself into those stages of deep sleep and REM sleep as opposed to sort of just being in those lighter stages of sleep. so if you are getting unbroken sleep, you're likely to be getting a, you know, a sense of restorative sleep. if your sleep is broken up in the night, that's going to disrupt the quality of your sleep, obviously, but also it's going to disrupt the natural release of hormones that are helping repair your muscles tissues and bone as well, so. I was going to come back to like, how do you know if you're getting enough sleep or not? Because I often feel like when my alarm goes off, I feel like so tired and my brain immediately is like, you haven't gotten enough sleep. But then after 15 minutes or so of being up, I feel like completely awake and often I'm not really tired at all during the day. So is that it? Okay. I guess my question is other things during the day that like if you're busy at work and so on and kind of mask the fatigue, I think sometimes I'm actually not getting enough sleep, but I don't feel super tired during the day. I think that is definitely true. I think you are definitely not sometimes getting enough sleep. Yeah, we call that like that initial grogginess, like sleep inertia where you've just woken up and you're feeling, feeling groggy. But, and yes, when you're busy during the day, you are probably distracting yourself and things like that. Um, especially if you are someone that, you know, runs at full pace all day and then just crashes at night. Um, but, If you're really struggling to function, um, that's probably when we have more concerns. Um, and if you're a sleepy head, for instance, Doesn't matter what time it is, if you're on the couch and you close your eyes, you fall asleep, or you can't read a book because you fall asleep. Is that a sign that you're not getting enough sleep or is that just a hidden talent that you have? Um, it could be both. Um, but it's not probably great to be falling asleep if on the couch and then getting, going to bed and then struggling to fall asleep. Um, if that's what's happening. Um, we probably want to change those habits. So that you're getting yourself into a routine where you're going to bed earlier instead and getting that sleep so that it's unbroken as opposed to falling asleep on the couch, getting up and then going to bed. Yeah. Do you fall asleep when you go back to bed? Yes. I never have an issue. Sometimes I'm slightly concerned at how easy it is for me to fall asleep. Not a bad problem. Although there has been times driving where I've actually had to pull over because I'm so sleepy. Oh, there is no worse feeling when you're like awful. I've been like slapping myself in the face. Yeah Windows down radio Yeah, yeah, there are studies that exist that have shown that Being sleep deprived is essentially equivalent to having a blood alcohol. I've seen Which is crazy with like shift workers and stuff that they're allowed to drive home after Well, of course how else could they get home after working for like three hours? 48 hours, whatever. It's crazy. But yeah, if you are, you know, sleep deprived, you're essentially, even if you're just turning up to work, sleep deprived, you're turning up to work equivalent of being drunk, right? When you do that comparison, what is it in the brain with the lack of sleep that's not working? Yeah, so it disrupts our cognitive function and our ability to make decisions, um, be alert and responsive. So a lack of sleep really affects our reaction time, our decision making ability and things like that. I'm wondering if like, there's a difference between being a little bit sleep deprived, maybe short term, missing a few nights full sleep, and then like, longer term, um, sleep deprived. like missing lots of sleep. Yeah. So in the short term, like if you're missing, if you're getting sleep deprived or sleep restricted, as we probably call it for a single night, you are going to see some, you know, performance decrements, but they're not going to be as bad as if you're getting. Not enough sleep over a longer period of time or that chronic chronic sleep restriction or sleep deprivation Absolutely. So for instance if you're doing a running race you're a bit nervous and can't sleep for the night before or a couple of nights before is that gonna significantly impact your race and How would that, how would it impact, or for instance, the Gold Coast Marathon this year, it started at 6am. So it was up at 3. 50am. Obviously unless you go to bed at 7pm or something, you're theoretically not going to get the right amount of sleep. Um, so yeah, what are some of the short term impacts? Yeah, so there are studies that have shown that, um, not getting enough sleep, you know, the night before a, an endurance event, so whether it be a time trial or whatever, or a race or whatever it might be, can impact endurance performance. Um, but I would also say that with sleep deprivation studies like that, we can't blind participants to being sleep deprived, so it, it means that a participant knows that they're being sleep deprived, but they're not, so they probably also think that they're not. that they're going to perform worse. So we kind of do have to take that data with a little bit of a grain of salt. Um, but there is also enough data to show us that there will be an impact on your, your ability to execute, you know, a race and race fast or race well. Um, but if it's one night, that's not going to undo. the amount of training work that you've done. Yeah. So, um, and that's something that we talk about with, you know, our athletes who wear wearable technology as well to not get too caught up in the data. If they wake up and see, you know, on race day that they've had a shit night's sleep or something. Yeah. And then that psychologically throw them off. Yeah. So if you're doing a running race and the two nights beforehand, you have shocking sleeps, are you worried? Um, I'm not worried, but, um, if we can put strategies in place prior, if you know you're someone that has a racing mind, that gets anxious before a race, if we can put strategies in place prior to that occurring, that improves the likelihood that you are going to sleep better, then that's the best case scenario. What? So when, when we say that it, you know, does have an impact, what is the impact? So essentially what we've seen in the data is an increase in the amount of time it would take to run a race. So there's been studies that have shown an impact of 5 percent impact on gold. Wow. That is huge. Yeah, it is huge when you think about it. Everyone was being like, Oh my gosh, like 5%. Think about how hard we've worked for like a 5 percent increase or decrease. And so, um, why do you become slower? Like, what is it your muscles can't output as much power or like? We're still probably trying to figure that out. And it's probably a combination of both the physiological from a muscle perspective, but also the neurological perspective as well. We also, yeah. And we also know that, um, you know, your rating of perceived exertion goes up. So it feels harder, even though you're at the same capacity. And so it feels harder. And then so maybe you slow down earlier in the race and things like that. So there's both a mental and a physical component to it. Absolutely. That is actually so, uh, I don't know, just thinking of personal experiences. Um, just before we went away, I remember doing a training session and the night before it was a Tuesday morning. So. Before work, I think we're already starting the hard part of the session by 6am, so getting up at sort of 5. 15. And I slept so badly the night before and was up, just a really interrupted sleep. And I honestly felt, I felt like my perceived effort was so high at, for the return, like for the paces I was running in comparison to what I was doing, sort of, before. the session before and the session after. And I remember in my head thinking, I just must be having, I, I remember thinking, Oh, you know, I've not had enough sleep, but also thinking, Oh, it must also be a bad day because surely that can't impact your, um, your performance that much. But yeah, it's kind of crazy. Yeah. And so if you were a chronic. Sleep deprived person, like a few of us, maybe, in the last few months. Um, what, what are the impacts on, your body and, uh, sort of day to day life? and then also, oh yeah, day to day life first, yeah. So day to day life, again, you're going to be, I guess, depleting your capacity to make decisions, be alert and responsive throughout the day, things like that on your body. if you are not getting enough sleep, you're going to decrease your rate of protein synthesis, which is what builds your muscle and it's how we recover. So, with that lack of protein building throughout the night, your ability to recover and adapt from the training session is diminished. but also it impacts your immune system as well. So you're exposing yourself at more risk of getting sick or getting ill. I think there's a study that says that you're 4. 5 times more likely to get sick if you're sleeping. Yeah, that's true. Their clogs are clogging. Clogs are ticking. Can we go back to what you said before, something like protein synthesis? Can you explain what that is? Protein. So, protein is essentially the main building blocks of your muscles. Right. and so if we're not getting enough sleep, That's disrupting our hormone release, which then leads to protein being built in our muscle. So testosterone, for example, and growth hormone, are key hormones that exist in the pathway to protein synthesis. So, If we're not getting those hormones released and we're not getting the protein synthesis in our muscle, we're not building muscle mass, we're not protecting, um, our immune system or, yeah, our health essentially. Yeah. So does that mean you can run as much as you want, train as hard as you like, but if you're not getting enough sleep? you're not going to reach your limit of adaptations because you're just your body and your muscles are never going to have time to actually adapt. Absolutely. So we talk about sort of the recovery pyramid, which you guys have mentioned on the pod before. And the foundation of that is nutrition and sleep. If you're not getting those two recovery modes right, there's no point, you know, trying compression garments or the foam roller and things like that. Those are really the two most important things to making sure as you said you're adapting. Yeah. And I guess then there's no point getting up the next day to go for another run because you're not recovering from the run before. It's almost counterintuitive. You think you're doing the right thing by getting up early each morning to run and train harder, but really all you need is. Sleep. Sleep. Yeah, so it is a bit of a catch 22 sometimes as to whether you do get up to train or whether you actually get that sleep instead. Yeah. I do. I do feel like it's hard to know if you're sleep deprived or not in a way, and obviously like we've kind of said, everyone's probably a little bit sleep deprived, but enough that it's, you know, that it's really impacting your performance. Like I still don't know how I would break up and know like, you're too tired, you shouldn't do your session, or, no, you're okay, you kind of should do it. Yeah. Like do you have any general like rules of thumb, of like Oh, if I haven't slept this much over these nights, over like three nights in a row, then I'll take it easy this day. Or is it just very individual? It's probably very individual, and so it's probably worth, um, You start to track your sleep and, and track your symptoms that occur alongside your sleep duration and quality. So that's why, you know, wearables or apps and things like that are really handy for you to start monitoring your sleep and trying to notice patterns. So if you record that you've slept, you know, five hours sleep, you know, the last three nights and your mood has been bad and you've felt really crack a little bit while you're running, all those sort of things. And then you get an eight hour sleep and you notice patterns. Um, for you, that might be a sign that you need a hour sleep to function or to run and train really well. So I would recommend, yeah, trying to work that out as an individual. Yeah. So it's also, I guess what we've spoken about before on the pod, but it's not just listening to your body, but acknowledging it. which is often quite what we've spoken about that we find quite difficult to do in a sense., I know you sort of spoke about the effects of lack of sleep on performance with the adaptations, but is there much of an effect on like injury recovery? from being sleep deprived also, I'm asking for a break. Yeah, pathetically, someone didn't sleep for 8 a plane. Yeah, so we know that, if you're sleeping less than 8 hours a night, you're more likely to get injured than if you are sleeping 8 or more hours a night, based on, on the research. but then, obviously that also extends to your ability to recover from an injury, because again, it's about that muscle and bone. yeah, adaptation again and, and recovering that, that injury, whatever it might be. Yep. Wow. It's so interesting. And can I ask another question? Long term effects. cause you had that Amazing statistic, which is going to leave rent for everyone now, but 5 percent increase. But what is there an equivalent for long term sleep deprivation or what are the ethics around studying that? I don't know how long you can sleep most of the time. It is really difficult to study because people, you know, don't want to be sleep, you can't really sleep to quite people for a long period of time. So it's a lot more, a lot of the longitudinal data that tells us about the effects of sleep on health are based on, you know, subjective ratings of how much sleep people have had per night. but we do know that long term, particularly in groups like shift workers who chronically are sleep deprived, or at risk of, you know, metabolic diseases, cancers, dementia, all those sorts of things. So there is a really long term health effects as well with a chronic lack of sleep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm just thinking of my brother who does shipwork. I'm like, okay. I know. And like, is there anything that compares to sleep in terms of how immediate and powerful its impact is on either your performance in a positive way in terms of how you recover Or in a negative way, like what else? Nutrition is like, so as I said before, so sleep and nutrition are the two main things that are going to make sure that you're ready to go for each training session, each race or whatever it might be. Yeah. Yeah. Is that why this is probably a stupid question, but I find when I'm really tired, I eat heaps. It's almost like my body's trying to, kind of compromise. It's like, Oh, well I can't sleep. So let's eat a lot. And like, I feel really hungry and like, I'm never satisfied kind of thing. Is that related or is that just, yeah, absolutely. And we also know that we tend to, when we're more sleep deprived, reach for sort of junk foods as well. so it's also about being conscious if you aren't getting enough sleep or if you are, you know, you've got to stay up late or if you're a shift worker. Um, Trying to be organized and have healthy snacks in that scenario as well. Yeah. What is it that does that? Like why would you sort of wait for feel like I've read that it's a Cause, when you're tired, you, your executive function doesn't work so well, and so maybe it's like, a lack of self control, or willpower. Yeah. What about, is there a difference between men and women in terms of how it impacts them? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, particularly in terms of, you know, our hormone release at night, um, how you sleep across the menstrual cycle, things like that. So I spoke before about how testosterone is really important to help build, um, that protein and that muscle mass. But in females, we have, um, females have 10 percent of the amount of testosterone that a male has. And so the main hormone instead, you know, in your sleep is going to be growth hormone. And so, a male getting to sleep, a lot of their growth hormone, for example, is released early in the night. Whereas a female, um, their growth hormone is released in more like bursts across the night, as the night progresses. So if you're getting a disrupted sleep, um, as a, as a female, that's going to disrupt your growth hormone a lot more than potentially a male, but a male's going to have their testosterone with them disrupted more if they have a disrupted sleep. So what's the impact of that? Like, so, so women maybe get their growth hormone more disrupted, men get maybe testosterone. Again, it just comes back to your ability to repair your muscle, right? we also find that females, report that they have more poor sleep. Symptoms and things like that towards the end of their menstrual cycle. So in the late Muteal phase, just before they're about to get their period. but that is obviously subjective reporting. And again, probably worth you monitoring individually how your sleep functions across your menstrual cycle as well. Thank you so, so much for joining us. This has been so interesting, I mean, yeah, I wish we hadn't known this before. Four months ago. Oh no. 30 years ago. Um, as a, as a babe, as a babe myself. But yes, thank you so much for your time. It's been great to have you.

Anna:

oh my gosh, how interesting was that?

Phoebe:

was that. Yeah, and, yeah, and obviously, um, you're not going to be watching

Anna:

yeah, um, obviously, you're not going to be watching it, but she had no notes. She's just completely just speaking. Yeah. yeah. I was going to say out of her own head, but like the knowledge is just in her head. There's like nothing that she's referring to. it was just amazing. So we hope you enjoyed learning about the different short term and long term impacts of getting less sleep. And

Phoebe:

Hope you're not too stressed

Anna:

yeah, I know. I know. Yeah.

Phoebe:

And if you are, you won't be for long.

Anna:

I know you'll just have to wait till next

Phoebe:

next week because

Anna:

will chat about ways in which we can improve our sleep and what we should be taking consideration when we're trying to get more sleep.

Phoebe:

Are we doing cliffhangers now? Look at us.

Anna:

know look at us clickbait machines.

Phoebe:

So, after last season, we both decided that we wanted to work on getting a little bit stronger. And so we're using Kick's new Strength for Running program. Anna, tell me, what class did you do this week? And how did you find it?

Anna:

This week I did the powerful legs and core for running. It's a 20 minute full body workout needing kettlebells and dumbbells. I actually was really sore after this one. It's an intermediate class unlike last week's

Phoebe:

I it up.

Anna:

but yeah, I thought it was really good. What did you do? I love it.

Phoebe:

I did core build up for runners, which is also intermediate and it's 15 minutes of just core, which is pretty wild, but I feel like that's a very important focus area for me right now. so basically it's three, five minute rounds, which kind of breaks it up a little bit, which is really good. And they're all different kinds of exercises on your core. All I needed was some dumbbells.

Anna:

Nice. So the strength and running program includes 16 master classes targeting all the areas you need to help make you feel strong and smooth when you run and help keep those injuries at bay, you can use the Code Cheeky Run, which is also in the show notes to get a one month free trial. Thanks to Kick for making this show of Cheeky Run Club

Phoebe:

run club possible. earlier on at the episode you wanted to talk about

Anna:

about. Oh, yes. Okay. I just have a question, a question for you, a question for the listeners. As I said at the start of the show, my hamstring was a little bit more sore and I thought, you know what? I'll go back to the physio. And then I was speaking to my partner Dave and he said, Why are you going back to the physio when I know that for the last 10 days or so, you've been a little bit slack with your rehab. Why don't you get back on top of that before you go and spend money at the physio? And I wanted to ask you, I mean, I feel like you're a bit better at life in general than me, so maybe you're not the right person to ask. But Am I the only one that something happens and you're very quick, I'm, I'm very trigger happy to be like, I'll go to the physio, I'll spend money.

Phoebe:

And rather than

Anna:

Putting the time aside to actually do the exercises myself. It's almost like I want the quick fix of someone else to do something rather than for me to have to do it myself.

Phoebe:

That is

Anna:

Does that ever happen to you? Not necessarily just with a running injury,

Phoebe:

I feel like, um, you know, what's interesting is I was running with a, friend, Nick from work yesterday, and I was talking about how my heart rate is still quite high when I run. And he was like, why haven't you gone and seen a doctor about it? Like, just go and see someone about it. And I almost feel like I have the opposite where. It, to me, it's such a big barrier to go and like, do

Anna:

do something about

Phoebe:

like, yeah. And I would rather stay in this state of inertia and just, or no, just another same state of inertia, but like hope that if I continue to like, be smart about the way I'm recovering and, and, you know, not take my running too seriously, that it will regress to normal. And I almost feel like I need more of a. Just to sort it out, sort it out. Impatient with

Anna:

yeah, yeah. So we need to have a kid.

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

then they'll be the perfect

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

Anyway. So yes, I wanted to know if anyone else does the same sort of thing,

Phoebe:

I think sometimes I get it for like, if I know something's a bit inflamed, I'll just want to take anti inflammatories. And it's the same thing, it's like, you're just looking for a quick fix, even though,

Anna:

Yeah,

Phoebe:

yeah, I'm like, oh well I haven't done my

Anna:

never done my Yeah, or Yeah, or like, I do feel like

Phoebe:

Yeah, or,

Anna:

looking

Phoebe:

yeah, or like, I do feel like we're always looking for like, hacks. But even like, as per this episode, like, Just sleeping and eating is probably going to be just as important. Do you find it like, um, soothing when you go and like someone tells you and gives you a

Anna:

I think so. I think there's that sense of they keep you accountable. but also it's almost just like someone holding your hand a

Phoebe:

bit. Yeah. And

Anna:

Sometimes with injuries, you feel a little bit isolated. so it's nice to have someone to check back in with to

Phoebe:

I agree, they're going but kind of and be reassured and. Because it can also, especially long injuries, which often soft tissue ones are, it can feel like, am I getting better or aren't I or whatever. And sometimes you want something to tell you, like reduce that ambiguity in that gray area and be like, yep, it's just because you've done this. And this is the, it's almost like you're searching for that mental emotional clarity

Anna:

exactly. Yeah. Because

Phoebe:

know, you need to do

Anna:

be quite consuming, the unknown of it all. So, by someone sort of telling you, or like, giving you that more information, I feel like it's almost, like, satisfying or a bit of a relief.

Phoebe:

whereas I like being in blissful

Anna:

ignorance. I like having my head in the

Phoebe:

that. Why, why do you think you stopped doing your exercises?

Anna:

Um, mean, I could blame Ted, but he is not the reason I definitely have time. I think it's just one of those things. I mean, you have time for everything if you create and make the time for it. I think I'm just a little bit like rehab fatigued,

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

whereas I just like my motivation for it dwindles a little bit. especially when it starts to. Maybe feel a little bit better or maybe yeah, I just like prioritize the right wrong thing because I do want to go for a run and do want to do all these other things that then I miss that

Phoebe:

do all these other things. I missed that for a where we talk about 15. And I do a sleep challenge next week we report back to each other. So I'll try and sleep 15. more minutes. So let me see what that number would be.

Anna:

So, this

Phoebe:

this week my average total sleep for the last seven days has been six hours and four minutes. God.

Anna:

that is

Phoebe:

God.

Anna:

a lot.

Phoebe:

What's going on there?

Anna:

not.

Phoebe:

Only 5 hours 53. See, yes, that's it. Last time I only got 5 hours and

Anna:

Oh my

Phoebe:

Because of my lasagna. And then one night. Yeah, I've been. Yeah, okay. That's, wow. Okay, good to check that. So, Oh, it's counting the plane, it's counting the flight.

Anna:

Oh, right,

Phoebe:

So the flight, I only got 30 minutes, so that's why. But I still, a lot of them, as you can see, are like around 6 hours. So, what should I try and get it up to next week, average, total sleep?

Anna:

45, I guess. Oh, is it, what is it now?

Phoebe:

6 hours and 4 minutes. But that's been So, okay, six and

Anna:

Okay. Six and a half,

Phoebe:

and a half. Um, I'll try

Anna:

Um, I'll try and do my exercises every single day.

Phoebe:

Um, I will take a photo

Anna:

I will take a photo every single day of myself doing the exercises and send them

Phoebe:

exercises and send them to you. Perfect! That's

Anna:

yourself a deal.

Phoebe:

sound to you. So or accountability in either of these spaces, you can do it too.

Anna:

Send us your photos. Send us your sleep data. We actually want to know.

Phoebe:

We want to know. Know about your sleep data or if you're setting yourself a challenge. Okay, how about this? If you want to set yourself either a sleep challenge or a rehab challenge. Send us a message when you hear this saying, yep, I'm joining in and we'll check back in at the end of the week if you haven't let us know. And if you let us know and you've done it, we'll give you a big congratulations. Otherwise we'll shame you. No, we wouldn't do that.

Anna:

Or would we? We'd love

Phoebe:

You'll have to see.

Anna:

you. Um, think that's it for this episode of Cheeky Run Club. Thanks so much for listening. thanks again to Liv for stepping in and teaching us all about the sleep. We, uh, can't wait to do it all again next week.

Phoebe:

As always, please like, and subscribe on, whatever platform you're listening on. It is a massive help to us. Also follow us on Instagram and our social platforms. We're kind of thinking about getting on YouTube. Yeah. So if you know anything about YouTube,

Anna:

YouTube. Let us know. Let

Phoebe:

let us know. Someone told us we should go on YouTube, so we thought that might be a good path. But otherwise We can't wait to be in your ears next week. Woo! See ya! So now we're going to introduce. Sorry. Sorry.

Anna:

Um, Maya,