Cheeky Run Club

Carbs for runners 101

• Phoebe Pincus and Anna Coldham • Season 4 • Episode 9

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Hello cheeky friends! 

This episode is all about carbohydrates. We speak to leading sports dietician and wonderful human Jess Rothwell to get an understanding of what carbs actually are, how they help us in our training, recovery and general life, what happens if you don’t get enough of them, how much you actually need, and the most common mistakes she sees amateur runners make when it comes to carbs. We hope you enjoy the conversation as much as we did - thanks again Jess for all your help! 

We also chatted about something fun that Anna has coming up this weekend and some more running hot takes. 

This episode is sponsored by Aid Station, one of the world’s leading sports nutrition websites. Use the code Cheeky10 to receive 10% off nutrition and hydration products!

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, Tiktok, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

Music produced by Hugh Raper. Logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

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Cheeky Run Club recognises that every day we live, work and run on Aboriginal land.

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This

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This episode is brought to you by Aid Station, Australia and New Zealand's leading online store for all things running nutrition. They've put together the world's best sports nutrition products under one website. So you can spend less time stressing about your fuel and more time running.

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Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello,

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Hello. Phoebe.

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hello, listeners.

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phone?

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we are diving into nutrition for runners, specifically to talk about carbs. We sat down with the leading sports dietitian, Jess Rothwell earlier in the week, To break down all things related to running and carbohydrates. We learnt about the role they play in both training and recovery, how much you need, how to know if you're getting enough, how to optimise timing around eating, carbs, and common mistakes made by amateur runners. We are then going to talk about something that Anna's got coming up this weekend. which will be done by the time the episode comes out.

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We're then going to finish it off by covering some of our favorite running hot takes. But first let's start with our notable runs of the week. Phoebe, give me your worst run

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I'm going to say Tuesday morning. so you and I both had weddings that we attended over the weekend. We did. Which

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Congrats to all of the newlyweds. Yes, congrats

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congrats to all. Um, however it did leave me quite fatigued leading into the week, if I could say so. And I know I was slightly sick when, we recorded last week and I was definitely sick earlier this week. And I, so I decided, mostly since we last recorded, I haven't done any sessions. I didn't do my long run and I've just been doing easy jogs. Yeah. Which is totally fine and great. But

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so

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It's

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fine, but on, them Tuesday morning, We went to Lakeside, and so Lakeside is a track in Melbourne which is like a proper track, not like the one we usually run around.

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And everyone was

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everyone's doing their sessions, and I was just jogging around it in circles, and I was just like, it's probably isn't it

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Yeah, that's fair enough. I hadn't reAlized that you were just jogging.

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didn't

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No. So I went and ran somewhere else because from previous experience, I don't really like just running around

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took yourself off for a lap of

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I did. We could have done it

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I know we

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have been your best,

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It could

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It was your worst.

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I know. Well, lesson learned, honestly. so no, it was fine. I actually, it was disappointing because I had a session that I was really looking forward to doing. I've been looking at coming up with my program for ages and being like, Oh, that looks really fun. And so then I didn't get to do it, but I think I'm going to do it later this week if I'm feeling better.

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Yeah, it's such

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cool session. It's 2K at half marathon pace. Two by 200 strides with a minute rest. And then 2k hard.

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Oh,

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Oh, and that's it. cool. Yeah. That sound good? Sounds really cool. Yeah. sounds short

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Yeah. Yeah.

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That's the most, like

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be cool because we're like, that would be over pretty quickly.

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feel like you'd be feeling so good by the time you got to that 2K hard.

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Yeah. With the strides. So the 200s aren't super

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No, they're just

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Yeah. Wow.

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Wow. I know. Really Interesting. What was your worst run of the week?

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My worst run was a classic. It was the Monday morning

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morning run.

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I, too, was fatigued from the wedding over the

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The all post wedding fatigue and

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wasn't super organized for the week. I just felt like I was in a bit of a shambles.

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bulls. Yeah.

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Wasn't super ready for work, still wanted to go for a little jog, see my friends and it was just a battle. Yeah. But not that much of a battle that I wasn't glad I was there.

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Yeah, that's

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that's nice. still net good.

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that headspace of any run is

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It's, oh, Yeah. totally, totally.

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Give

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Give me your

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My best. Okay. So I guess the, upside potentially of being a bit, uh, sick and doing easier runs is that I feel like I had a lot of runs this week that were purely for the purpose of like connection. for want of a better word. In, content where the wedding was held, which is in, regional Victoria. I went for a run with, cousins and aunties and uncles and so on. Well, sorry, I went for a run with my auntie Shelly and my

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my cousins. We all

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all met before at a coffee shop. Everyone was there, and then a few of us went off for a run And came back. We went for a really beautiful run like along the trails. Actually my mum came for a bit. She was really nice. And then we like came back and you know, when you just keep running into people, you know, Because it's

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Yeah.

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town and It was a really big

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I,

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It was so nice.

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like peak happiness

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I completely agree. You're like got something you're looking forward to. And like I, it was a benefit to not doing a long run. Like I wasn't feeling wrecked or anything.

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was

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seven Ks or something. And. Just was like chatting catching up. yeah, and then I also had a run yesterday where I caught up with my friend Holly who's visiting from overseas and again, it was a similar thing. It was like a run Purely with the function of like, let's catch up. Let's catch up. And they're such nice runs. Yeah. It's such a nice way to catch up with people.

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Oh, so

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great. Yeah. That's awesome. Very wholesome. What was your best run?

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Mine was the Sunday morning. So a few of us Including the bride, actually went for a little trot post wedding, cause we're all actually staying on site.

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so

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Yeah. And it was so nice cause we were debriefing about what had happened

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the afternoon

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and everyone's kind of individual experiences and Molly the bride was there and then one of the bridesmaids so it was fun kind of hearing what they'd gotten

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to for

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the day and yeah I guess as well just that connection it was one of those runs where I think we all felt a little bit tired at the start and snoozy and then by the end we were all just saying oh my gosh I'm so glad I did

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I'm so tired. Yeah, I feel like that is something

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really fun

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about a debrief run. When like something's happened The night before or something, and then you go on a run.

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And you're like, all

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yeah, yeah. Let's unpack all of that. Yeah. that

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Who was the best on the

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Yeah. I know.

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Obviously.

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Who was the best? on the net?

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best? Probably me, because I changed into my Crocs.

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You

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You did so smartly

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I know.

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traded your Crocs.

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that

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And that was, that was fine. Like you weren't, ostracized for too much time. Um, not

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Um, not to my face,

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might have

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I might've been, but I didn't hear about it.

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best on the

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No. The best on the dance floor was the groom's dad. He's about seven feet tall and at one point there was a chant going, Larry, Larry, Larry. It was pretty funny.

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Larry!

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who is the best on your dance floor?

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who was the best one your dad's I think, yeah, Soph was ripping and tearing on the dance floor. And then one of my brother's like, rugby friends, she was just like,

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an

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an actual good dancer. you know and She was like, so cool, and she was just killing it on the

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is This is so off topic, but how cool is it being at a wedding or a party and being in the presence of someone who's can actually dance? I kind of end up trying to copy what

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I exactly the same. And then

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And then I'm like, this is not looking the same, but you almost feel kind of cool. I'm like, how do you move? You're not really doing anything, but somehow you look so smooth. Yeah.

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Yeah. They bring so much energy to the dance force. those people who are loving it and they're genuinely good.

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love a dance

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Yeah, yeah, love a dance floor.

Jess Rothwell is an advanced sports dietician. there are a couple things you should know about her. She is the National High Performance Nutrition lead for Athletics Australia. So that basically means that she works at the highest level with our top Australian athletes. So she's pretty much the goat of running dietetics, but she also does a huge amount of work with amateur athletes. She works at Spots Medicine Clinic in Melbourne. I actually went and saw her a couple years ago when I was struggling with some injuries and just wanted to make sure I was fueling myself properly and she was phenomenal. Obviously incredibly knowledgeable but also just super empathetic and really gets what it's like to be trying to run. And balance that with And we were pretty nervous actually reaching out to her. So we were absolutely thrilled when she responded saying that she'd love to be on the pod. We had the nicest conversation where we grilled her on all things carbs and learnt so, so, so, so, so, so much. And now you all get to benefit from her wisdom as well. Enjoy!

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alright, Welcome, Jess.

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you so much

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coming on the show. First, to get started, we just wanted to ask what your favourite part of

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job is.

Jess:

guys, thanks so

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so much for

Jess:

me. The most favourite part of my job is probably working with Obviously a range of diverse people. I find it a real privilege to be invited into their lives and learn lots about them as well as where I can help. And hopefully I'm helpful. And yeah, it's really cool when you see that, they're improving or, achieving some of their goals that they've set out to do.

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I love it. Well, you're about to help a lot more people. over the course of this podcast, no pressure. Yeah. Um, but yeah, today is all about carbohydrates, carbs. So we wanted to start off. Right at the basis, because when Anna and I were prepping for this episode, we realized we actually don't know much. So, Can you explain to us, what actually is a carb?

Jess:

so a carb or carbohydrate is one of our three macronutrients. So carbohydrate, protein and fat. And carbohydrates are predominantly what people need to function to survive. And particularly for runners, should form a really, significant part of their dietary intake. So carbs provide us energy. they're important for, tissue, and replenishment similar to protein but, they enable us to have energy to, to use more. I

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Where are carbohydrates found? So,

Jess:

So carbohydrates are largely found in our cereal and grain foods. So things like pasta, rice, couscous. quinoa, starchy veggies like your potato, sweet potato, corn, um, get a little bit in legumes, um, as well as fruit, some vegetables, um, and you also find some carbohydrate in in dairy products as well.

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Something we, we hear about as runners a bit is like simple carbs versus complex carbs. Can you break down that whole shebang? yeah.

Jess:

So essentially what that is referring to complex carbohydrates will be more fibrous and take longer for the body to break down and digest. So they'll often have more prebiotic fiber which can sometimes cement in the large gut, which can be troublesome for some people, depending if they've got like a hypersensitive bowel or IBS, things like that, but generally is really important for Um, our immune function and helps to feed the good bugs that live in our large colon. Um, and often those complex carbohydrates will be more protein rich, um, as, as well. So think of like your grainy bread or, um, kind of your quinoa, those types of things. Whereas a simple carbohydrate or those simple sugars, are really kind of like your glucose or maltodextrin. So things like confectionery, sports gels, sports drinks.

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Mm.

Jess:

Um, fruit, so they're, they'll break down in the body much more easily and increase blood sugars a little bit more quickly.

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Okay. so the complex is more sort of sustained release in a sense.

Jess:

Yeah, depending on, yeah, quantity and, and the type, but typically it will, yeah, digest more slowly just because it's having to be broken down, more so it'll take a little bit more time. So your oats are pretty common for that. Okay. Yeah.

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And can you tell us about the role that I guess both of those carbs play for runners? Let's maybe start with just like, not for race, specifically, because I think we talk a lot about racing and gels and so on. but for just a general runner's load training, et cetera, what kind of role does carbs play?

Jess:

So, across the day, obviously, if we're thinking about our training sessions, if we've got a morning session, and it's like a key session where we're trying to put in a bit more effort and we're working at a higher heart rate, the main substrate or fuel source that will be being used by everybody's body is glycogen, which is your stored muscle energy or your carbohydrate. And so it's important to have carbohydrates before those training sessions. And that might be a combination. of Complex and Simple or a couple of crumpets with some jam. Um, so quick kind of instant fuel that will essentially prime. or supply the liver glycogen after the overnight fast, um, and to support that daily carbohydrate need. So for runners or athletes that have a bigger training day, it's important to have more carbohydrate on that day because there's more being

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As

Jess:

as well as ensuring that there's enough available for the body to function as it might normally through work or looking after family and for use, um, cognitive way.

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Yeah. And

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is that pre and post exercise? It's like a continued thing or is it more so just focused on

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pre

Jess:

Yeah, so pre, during and post, depending on the total length of a session or long run. And so typically, definitely pre, so you want your carbohydrates before, which is going to give you energy and to contribute to your net daily energy needs. And then during the session, if, you're running, you know, for well over 60 minutes, even if it's like 80 to 90 minutes, up to two hours, that's where we look to our carbohydrate fueling guidelines and that. That's 30 to 60 grams of carbohydrate per hour, which I think most people might be familiar with. If someone was working on some specific gut training, we might look to increase a little bit and come back down and expose the gut at different running intensities, whether that's an easy

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run, a

Jess:

harder run, where we do expect

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to stress the gut a little bit to create

Jess:

the adaptation, and then certainly after carbohydrates for recovery. So, I think sometimes. People just focus. Oh my god.

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So

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We're just eating. Talking

Jess:

I hope it was your stomach.

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my god, talking about carbs. I mean,

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Phoebe's, For anyone who didn't hear that, which is probably no one, Phoebe's,

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just went, Phoebe's just

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Phoebe's ate a really tough

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just ate a really fast dinner before you came over'cause we were trying to quickly eat and I think it's just makes some digestion,

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But yeah, I think some people are

Jess:

but yeah, I think sometimes people forget about the carbohydrates as part of their recovery and might just focus a little bit more on, on protein. If, we're looking to support our net daily carbohydrate needs and energy or the restorement or replacement of glycogen, that's where carbohydrates in the exercise window to follow in that first hour are really important. Can

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exercise window to follow in that first hour are really important. Yeah, so if we're, if we've used

Jess:

so if we're, if we've used some of our

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glycogen,

Jess:

which is our stored energy in our muscles. Um, if if we don't add carbohydrates in after, we're not going to replace it. So we want to replace it. So it's like building. If we're talking about a five year old, if you're on the beach and, oh yeah, or blocks. Yeah, that's probably a better one. Um, or if you, you've got a um, a sand bucket. And we're filling that bucket up with sand we are going to use

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Yeah. Okay.

Jess:

And we want to replace the bucket with the sand. So replacing the carbohydrate. And your muscles will just soak it up. And that will support your recovery. And ensuring that,

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that, glycogen

Jess:

is restored more quickly. And often then you'll feel much better across the rest of the day, rather than being in a bit of a, low energy

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and a lot of our listeners working or studying a lot and quite often are getting up quite early

Jess:

someone, for example, like,

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there a certain threshold of duration? And also, I guess, time of day, where, you would like really suggest fueling pre run, for example, If someone's getting up at 530

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to go for a 30. minute

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jog, but they haven't eaten since the night before, is it imperative that they are still feeling before that?

Jess:

yeah, I think for like a half an hour, if it's a very steady, easy run, you're up at 5. 30 and you haven't got an opportunity to eat before that.

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Yeah.

Jess:

without, um, intentionally fueling that. And if you've had a good dinner the night before and some supper or dessert, um, there'll be the stored glycogen use. and then the liver glycogen depleting. So the recovery meal after that, will be important to, you know, restore that energy and start the day to meet your daily needs if, and some people that you see if, if you've. You know, got a 14 to 15k session and you're working with repeated efforts or at high intensity. And if you're not having anything prior to that, I'd often encourage people to try and add some more fuel into the session, whether that's sports gels, sports drink or, um, medjool dates,

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dates.

Jess:

confectionary, depending on, you know, people's preferences. Because, yeah, there'll be a greater need, particularly with that glycogen, but often it is the day before that stores that muscle energy that will be then used for that morning. Um, but if, if people aren't able to eat prior, and there's some good gut training

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if, you know, people can, but I don't really appreciate it, it's early and, you know, if

Jess:

you know, you just want to get it done and you're on a busy schedule, it will be important to eat enough across the rest of the day. Yeah. And

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what, if, what if you're not eating enough? eating enough carbs, basically. Like, let's say you're not fueling enough beforehand or during, like, how is that likely to. present, let's say, first in the run itself?

Jess:

so, um, depending on the length of the run, Some people might not notice any difference, and they might be like, Oh yeah, I feel like, so if I know I can get through this. And there will be training adaptations that obviously support that, depending on the level of experience of a runner. But the longer the duration it goes, the harder it will likely be for that person to feel great, to hold a conversation, chatting,

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to

Jess:

feel

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feel happy.

Jess:

They might be getting hungry. And so the quality of that training session depletes. Or if it was, an actual session. that person is probably not able to achieve the, their capacity or the, Yeah. the purpose of training hard. So we want to make sure the substrate's available to train hard, to progress, and you know, that's all part of developing good training adaptations.

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Yeah.

Jess:

So like we approach training or recovery, sleep, you know, nutrition is one of those other key parts of the jigsaw.

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and then in terms of recovering from your run or from your session, what is the impact on not having enough carbs, either pre or during the session or even sort of like straight after?

Jess:

Somebody's, um, not consuming adequate carbohydrate short and long term, short term problems could be things like, well, I guess if we're talking about energy availability, we've got what we call problematic low energy availability, or. Low energy availability and adaptive low energy availability, problematic low energy availability is where athletes might not have been consuming enough total calories or, and it is often carbohydrates that we do see that it is lower in their dietary intake for X number of months and they develop symptoms or features that we know as relative energy deficiency in sport or syndrome, which I'm

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sure

Jess:

some of your listeners as well as you guys might be familiar with. So, Things like fatigue, lowered iron is often, quite complementary with low carbohydrate availability. When somebody is in a state of low energy availability and that low carbohydrate availability often, or can, increase hepcidin, which is our main iron regulatory hormone. Yeah.

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Because carbs aren't rich in

Jess:

Yeah. Yeah. so it, it's to do with, I guess, total energy availability, so the amount somebody's eating. And it is often, particularly for more, I guess, endurance based athletes. we often do see that lowered carbohydrate

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intense.

Jess:

So, hepcidin's the main iron regulatory hormone.

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hormone, Um,

Jess:

And that is elevated normally after we train. It's just a training stress response, but it can be more elevated if there is that state of low energy availability. so yeah, fatigue, poor recovery, and not progressing through the week as one might expect, or training really hard but not getting any results. Immunity can be impacted, um, for females. They might lose their period or have some irregular menstrual cycles. Um obviously associated with that is also, a suppression or a decrease in endogenous hormones, sex hormones, so things like estrogen and progesterone or for male athletes, testosterone. and that can subsequently increase the risk of bone stress, injuries, stress reactions, stress fractures, which we, I guess, more commonly see in our running based athletes. Um,

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So

Jess:

Cognitive changes too. So people might not be the best, sparkliest

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Yeah! Mood even,

Jess:

changes, yeah. So, there are all of obviously these features of, when somebody might not be consuming enough or carbohydrate that, um, might be okay for a day, but when it's, when it's It's continuous, that's where things kind of don't go as well from

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a health as

Jess:

well as performance perspective.

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Gosh, it really impacts every aspect of your life. Yeah. Like

Jess:

And people will know the difference when they're eating enough versus not, but I think when people aren't, they can be quite stuck. So it's trying to help educate and increase knowledge and confidence with adding a bit more and then it's amazing sometimes you see people almost like have a grey sheen over them when they

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Wow.

Jess:

in. And then you see them again and they've tried a few things and they're like, you know, a light bulb. Yeah, it is cool. Maybe that's my own, but

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would be so rewarding.

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So what, let's talk about that then in terms of like how much you actually need. I mean, you had some good guidelines there before when you're running, but yeah. can you give us any other like rough rules of thumb for people to know, like how much to eat before afterwards and maybe some, um, practical examples of like what that could look like? Yeah.

Jess:

So everybody's body is obviously going to be different. And so based on our height, our size, That will determine, you know,

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somebody that might

Jess:

need more versus somebody that might need less in terms of just total energy use. But often a big thing that some people might not recognize is what they're doing across their day outside of planned training. So there's an area called NEAT, or non exercise activity thermogenesis, which is things like our workload, stress, activities of daily living. And quite often, it's those people in, Less sedentary positions that are using a lot more energy through the day that will need more total energy or carbohydrate versus somebody that might be more sedentary.

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But I guess

Jess:

I guess with, you know, how much does somebody need, it's important also not to compare and keeping honest with yourself and intuitive, but not being intuitive in the sense that if you've gone for a run and you have a suppressed appetite after, and that's something you do commonly hear of. I wasn't

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

People do say that. Yeah, yeah,

Jess:

yeah, which is really common if it's been a high intensity session or a run in the heat. It's really normal for that loss of appetite to occur. So if we said to someone, listen to your body after you run and eat whatever you feel like. We might be setting them up for failure if they don't refuel properly. So, As an example, somebody, if we're talking about, what, Sunday long run or something like that? Yeah. Um, someone might have a couple of crumpets and a coffee with some jam or honey, um, for breakfast with a banana, and we typically recommend pre exercise hydration, sorry,.so yeah, having a good glass of water. And then we'd obviously fuel that long run appropriately, whether it's 30 to 60 grams of carbohydrate. As part of recovery, we look at carbohydrate and protein. So it might be like, depending on where you are, that you're having, Um, I guess it's been very popular of late. There's a Ropey Farm smoothie, something like that, or an Up and Go Energize plus a banana. They are the best, aren't they? Um.

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What's your favorite flavor? Um. Yeah.

Jess:

Dutch chocolate.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

Ah, interesting. My banana and cinnamon girlie.

Jess:

Yeah. Yeah.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

Anyway. no one needs to know

Jess:

They are so good. Um, So depending on I guess, yeah, what that person's preference is or if there's, you know, if somebody, you know, follows a non dairy diet, it might be like a sorbet based smoothie that they're making. So, if you're out or if you're heading back home, there can be a range of combinations that we focus on, as well as thinking about the seasonal aspects. So, it's getting warm now. People feel like something really hydrating and refreshing, so that's where smoothies are great. Um, Or whether it's juice, eggs, and some avocado, and some fruit. Are there any

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it's juice, eggs, and some avocado, and some not eating much dairy

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non-dairy

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

snuff suggestions? Yeah. Yeah,

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

and things that are easy to get down I guess. Cause a lot of our friends, I've spoken to after runs and they really just don't have an appetite at all. And even for like the rest of that day, even if it's a long run or something. but yeah, I guess tips or tricks to kind of combat that.

Jess:

Yes, so to re stimulate the appetite. food or fluids will do that. So it's bringing blood flow back to the gut after the blood flow and oxygen has been to the working muscles. So somebody might even start with a little bit of sports drink or juice. So I'd focus more on the easy to digest carbohydrates to help re stimulate the appetite That will help with that glycogen resynthesis and then building back in some protein once appetite's returning. So it could be something like, if you're at a cafe, a juice, but If you're on the go, that is typically where. And I think that probably one of the more convenient options might be something like a, plant based, you know, non dairy protein powder where The addition of water. So getting in something rather than nothing, or something homemade, whether it's

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

it with just be a bit prepared. yeah.

Jess:

be proactive, be organized. So I think, you know, everybody plays a role in looking after their own health. So, you know,

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

you've

Jess:

to be proactive. You can't, you know, Make

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

be too about it. Yeah.

Jess:

Yeah. so, um,

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

I want to unpack a little bit more something you were talking about before about like I guess, Rough rules of thumb for, um, how much carbs to eat are going to look different for everyone. But what about, how do individuals think about, as they're increasing their load, how much they should be increasing their carbohydrate intake?

Jess:

That's a good question. So with any increase in training load, there's obviously a greater energy cost with that. So naturally with endurance based athletes or runners, that Um, Energy will largely come from

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

carbohydrate.

Jess:

In terms of total estimated needs, there will be an increase in protein and fat. So, if we're talking specific guidelines, someone that might be doing up to, I don't know, an hour run might need anywhere from 5 to 6 gram per kilogram across the day when that's increasing or with intensity. That's where we're really looking, 6 to 8, for a larger person, 8 to 10 depending on, you know, what that session is or what that training day is. So, um, things will step up or people need to increase their carbohydrates with increased training loads.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

And is there a difference between female and males in With those guidelines? Yeah,

Jess:

I think there is, yeah. And a lot of the literature is obviously based on male athletes, but if we know more about carbohydrate oxidation rates, so the amount of carbohydrate someone uses, or from their muscle glycogen stores, we can better estimate how much they might need for a race per se, or training

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

you can specifically calculate that for an individual? Um,

Jess:

if we have the data available. Yeah. so it's something that we're looking into at the moment or that I'd like to learn a little bit more about. Yeah.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

Before how we were speaking about if your training is increasing, how you obviously need to, increase your carbohydrates, but as someone who's recently been injured. And I know there's general chatter about, you know, you're obviously not doing as much, so you should be eating less, but, what do carbohydrates do in the role of recovery I'm tissue repair and,

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

Healing. Healing. Yeah, and I, presume

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

that you should still be actually getting quite a lot, particularly if you're doing rehab

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

and that kind of

Jess:

Yeah,

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

you talk us through that a little bit?

Jess:

yeah, and cross training too, yeah. So carbohydrates essentially provide enough as well as fats and protein, enough total energy. So for the body to have that energy to go into tissue remodeling. So often if, there's adequate energy availability, there should be adequate growth hormone, insulin like growth factor. So some of these, I guess hormones that help promote that tissue regeneration and repair. So if somebody's not quite consuming enough, it might take longer to get over the injury or might not be. adapting to the strength program,

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

so if there has

Jess:

been a strength deficit that's been identified From a coach or an exercise physiologist, someone might be working so hard doing all of their exercises but not getting stronger in a limb that might be a little bit weakened or obviously if there is an injury, the kind of goals are to get back as quickly as possible and we want to look to preserve muscle mass and that strength and robustness so that You You know, you get through your rehab really well and then, you know, you're bouncing back without too many concerns with a, appropriately graduated return to run program or what have you. So yeah, carbohydrates will largely help provide the energy and also enable the protein to be used as part of the building blocks to repair and remodel that

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

tissue.

Jess:

So we want to make sure there's protein available for that role rather than being used in the As an energy, yeah, as an

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

Wow, that is so interesting because I definitely think that is so common for people to get injured and then really change their diet as a result of it.

Jess:

yeah, yeah, they can do and they think that they're, they're doing a lot less, but often depending on the injury, there is an elevated, energy cost in terms of an initial healing response. If they're still cross training or if they're crutching, they're using more energy too than just, you know, usual walking around. And ORFIT is still working, there's still.

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

You know, of course, yeah,

Jess:

getting back to resuming normal, kind of a little bit more intuitive eating, but with a possibly greater, um, focus on, on protein. And just, you know, relaxing a little bit more, um, around it. And I think, Probably, obviously one of the The concerns there that we do see, you know, in clinic is, that fear of body changing or, thinking that, well, yes, I'm doing so much less, so I don't need as much more. But often that's when people might pull back too much, where then they're kind of putting themselves on the back foot rather than really progressing robustly through that rehab and recovery. Let's

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

what are some common mistakes or like knowledge gaps you see, especially in like amateur runners?

Jess:

I think one of the biggest ones is probably not recognizing how much energy their bodies might be using. With respect to their workday. So we've got planned training, but if you're seeing like

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

man, we've

Jess:

weeds, men, and we're seeing, sparkies or plumbers, there's a huge amount of energy and, you know, we can't necessarily quantify it. There's some different devices out there, but if they're up training really early and then a huge day on the tools, so to speak, or racing around, or even if we're seeing a surgeon or a hospital worker that's on their wards all day with small gaps. So quite often it's, recognizing that they need to eat more with respect to, other parts of their life outside of training, because quite often what can happen, someone feels okay in their training sessions for quite some time, but they get flat or feel fatigued, sleepy, cranky across the rest of the day, or they lose their focus or, other factors or features that we do see of that suboptimal energy availability. and everyone's different, but that under recognizing how much someone needs to consume based on other life factors. And then also probably eating regularly across the day. So people for whatever reason or busy lifestyles can totally appreciate that now having baby, um, might miss a snack or a meal or not prioritize it or just have something quickly on the go. And so Um, and they can be floating in a bit more of that low energy availability state across the day rather than putting in energy when the body's going to use it really efficiently and creating that metabolic efficiency, that energy being used cellular adaptations and protein resynthesis and muscle repair.

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

Yeah, I think I'm so guilty. I think quite intentionally about carbs around my runs and then throughout the day I might have meetings or through lunch and then all of a sudden I'm starving or whatever it is and I don't think, I definitely don't think about carbs the same way. outside of exercise. Yeah. Yeah.

Jess:

So I guess if we think about, a human being that, know, is doing just usual exercise across the day, they might walk to work, obviously their bodies from a metabolic perspective, which is all their organ mass and bone and muscle, they're going to need a certain amount of energy and carbohydrate,

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

particularly the brain, which uses

Jess:

glucose largely as its preferential fuel source. So if we think about that person

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

person having carbohydrate foods through the

Jess:

And then we think about adding training into that. There's a much greater energy cost from carbohydrate that we need to put in on those training days. Does that make sense?

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

makes

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

Yeah. Yeah. So It's

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

funny. I've just never really thought about like, that makes total

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

Yeah. It's like, you

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

got to top it up all

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

the day rather than

Jess:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.,

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

what are some tips for some people who have dietary requirements? It's like celiac disease or something random like that.

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

For example.

Jess:

It's, super

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

yeah, it's

Jess:

something that, you know, you're constantly having to think about or navigate and another thing you're having to prepare and be organized with. So obviously, you know, depending on confidence within a cafe, that's going to lend itself to having something there or not. that's probably the best thing you can do. Being prepared and, you know, bringing your overnight Weet Bix. So, Preparing a yummy birch or, you know, things that you enjoy, um, that you can refuel sufficiently with. Um, but yeah, certainly with travel or international travel. Obviously it is. Um, some different apps that you can be on now and to find restaurants, but you know, it can always be risky, in particular airports.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

Yeah. It can

Jess:

be really challenging for gluten free options.

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

Really?

Jess:

I think they're now in supermarkets. There's, there's definitely an increase in the range of things, but.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

because it's sort of a bit trendy now, which is good for people

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

good for people. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, cool.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

actually products

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

But I feel like, I feel like in some ways you are so proactive with making sure that wherever we go, like you've bought your overnight oats or whatever it is to make sure that I feel like it's almost forced you to be better at it

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

Yeah, that's true. Cause I

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

I think I often am like, Oh, whatever, I'll just find something there. But then maybe I don't, like, I'm just a bit lazier about it. So. you

Jess:

Great work.

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

You don't need to Yeah, you're really good Anna's really good with it. like

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

I'm not a nice person when I'm hangry.

Jess:

think. Yeah, no one is, are they? This

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

good. Like we'll always sit, I actually,

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

No,

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

I actually, find it quite inspiring. Like we always sit down after runs and you'll like, bring out your breakfast that you've gotten ready. And I'm like, Oh my God, how are you disorganized in your life? Just look at you like, Whoa. It's good though.

Jess:

cause it'll set your day up beautifully, you know, you've refueled properly,

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

your body, your brain's got energy

Jess:

then you can get on with your day rather than, you know, feeling Hungry or, you know, not as cognitively aware and so. So.

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

something we're gonna ask about Is that a myth about like the exercise window, eating a certain amount of time afterwards to make sure your body uses the fuel? Like Yeah,

Jess:

so certainly for glycogen, that's stored carbohydrate resynthesis, as quickly as you can. That's when the muscles will really soak it up. Um

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

is so, I did not know that.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

I have always, I don't know if it's just from social media or Maybe it's good marketing by protein brands, but you see like, must have protein within 30 to

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

Yeah. and I never think

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

a lot of all of the protein powders,

Jess:

Yeah.

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

Yeah, big protein out there spreading rumours. Big protein, yeah.

Jess:

that's funny. I think it, it will depend though on the like modality of exercise or the intent or if somebody is, looking for a certain training adaptation or whether it's a body composition change, they might be using different strategies to manipulate macronutrients. But somebody that, may have done a gym session, um,

DJI_20241210194644_0288_D:

weight lifting

Jess:

Yeah, Which may not use as much glycogen, protein is probably an appropriate option and certainly a whey

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

okay, yeah

Jess:

or soy for the non dairy people, um, to support that

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

to running you really need the, glycogen Yeah.

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

Yeah. And the sooner the better.

Jess:

Yeah. definitely. Definitely. And then obviously

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

get on this. I'm going to get on this. I'm

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

Watch out tomorrow you'll be with you

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

I'll be sitting there.

DJI_20241210194644_0288_D:

to

Jess:

I mean, just to see how you feel, and or how your recovery is the, you know, the following day. So, it's, I guess, probably the urgency of it or the importance of it will be related to somebody's training week. If somebody's doing, you know, a hundred quads.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

plus a

Jess:

Or 80 each A week day is going to be a really important fueling day in that recovery window. If someone's just going out for one or two runs across the week, it's probably less important because the body will continue to restore that glycogen through the course of

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

days and,

Jess:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

DJI_20241210194644_0288_D:

That

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

is very interesting. We might do one more audience question and then we'll wrap things up. We thought this was a really insightful question, how do you make sure you're getting enough without tracking everything?

Jess:

Yep. So that's a really good question. And I think it's, it's a really nice thing to do because Certainly you don't want people to be tracking things. Sometimes we might ask people or athletes to do so as a bit of a learning activity or so we can complete a nutrition analysis. Um, but I think, in terms of eating enough, one, obviously for females, regular menstrual cycles is going to be a bit more of an obvious sign, but even for some females that might have regular cycles, they still might be in a bit of that suboptimal energy state. So, if you're feeling satiated, if you're happy, if you're training well, you've got regular meals and snacks through the day, good bowel habits, your immunity is pretty robust, you're staying injury free. you're progressing with training adaptations and, possibly even, doing some PBs. They're probably all of the, the key

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

It's like you're feeling good. you're able to, Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

So it's more looking internally and acknowledging what your body's telling you really and listening to it

Jess:

Yeah, totally. Yeah. I guess where that could be risky though, if somebody has been under fueling or under eating. Tensionally or unintentionally, that their body can adapt to that and creates a bit of a new normal. So they might not be realizing their peak potential, so to speak. So even being brave and bold and trying to increase a little bit more or trying something new

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

to see,

Jess:

does that make me feel different? Does that feel better? How am I recovering following this run? And particularly listening to your body across the rest of the workday. So sometimes people think or might describe needing a nap or feeling really sleepy and thinking that's just because, they're training hard. But often that's a clue in terms of if sleep is otherwise needed.

DJI_20241210194644_0288_D:

a

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

really bad.

Jess:

Okay. And mental health. Okay. That's often just a, an obvious clue for us that, Yeah.

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

Fatigue. Energy

Jess:

Fatigue. Yeah. Yeah. You're in a bit of an energy deficit. Cause you should be able to absorb training. Feel tired, but not exhausted.

ZOOM0018_Tr3:

Um, all right. I think that's it for this chat. Thank you so much. For talking to us all things carbs.

ZOOM0018_Tr4:

So a lot of our audience listen on runs. I feel like They're going to be like, I wish I had a pen and paper for that Because that was unbelievably helpful.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

Quick

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

A quick word from today's sponsor. This episode of Cheeky Run Club is sponsored by Aid Station.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Aid Station is Australia and New Zealand's leading online store for all things running nutrition. So picture basically a website where they bring together all the best

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

gels,

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

protein, powder, Accessories. basically they've done all the work to be like, what are the best, most high quality options. Let's just pull it all into one place.

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

And they do these packs, which I think is so cool. So they'll have a specific brand half marathon starter kit. So you've got, your gels and your drink mix, or they also have a pack that gives you a range of different gels. Which I think is so cool. Cause it means that you almost get to try. all different ones. See which one you like best and then from there you can buy that brand because it's, it's really hard to know with gels sometimes if they're going to actually like

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

cool on

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

you when you're running. Um, so I feel like that's really

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

love that, it's really good.

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

don't

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Like most of them you actually need to, Yeah, you do actually need to go online and so it's helpful just to be like, okay, I'm going to look at gels and here are all the different options and I want to filter for this kind of gel. So you and I both, did an order from there. What was your favorite thing that you've

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

I ordered Pure Sports Nutrition, one of their gels, which I love. I actually spoke about on the podcast when we were doing our recommendations, but I just find that they sit really well. they're quite natural in flavor. They don't taste, super like highly processed in a sense. What about you? What are you enjoying? Well,

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

I, again, in the theme of trying something new, I order the Cliff Energy Blocks. They're basically, like, chews. They're like lollies. And they come in a little packet that you can run with. And it's essentially, I think it's about the equivalent of almost two gels, the whole packet. But they're in these little, six little, like, chewy lollies. That are quite intense flavored. So I've been using them a little bit in my longer runs. and. A, they're so easy to share, which I actually really love. You can kind of like give some to the people around you. But B, I find just because I don't love gels, Right now, like, I'm not training for a marathon, I don't want to, I'm not, like, as concerned with, like, conditioning my body to be able to take different gels. So these are just good because I actually enjoy them so

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

so

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

And I think because of that I'm more likely to have them.

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Yeah, I kind of want to taste one., so a few fun facts about Aid Station. They're athlete owned and operated online, so they understand the role that good nutrition plays in peak performance.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

They stock over a thousand products from over 80 brands. Including energy gels, chews, hydration, all those things that we mentioned before, basically anything that aids your performance.

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Check them out at aidstation. com. au.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

They also have offered us a Cheeky discount code for the Cheeky community, so we will pop that in our show notes. You have something that you've been, I think, you've been keeping pretty close to your chest,

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

I have been. I am officially a hybrid athlete. No,

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

No, you're not officially till you do it.

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

true.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

think you can say

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

by the time this episode comes out, I would have already, well, hopefully completed. I'm doing high rocks as a part of a relay, which is essentially, it's kind of giving CrossFit ish vibes, but you also run and then it's a bit of a race. So you can do it as an individual in a pair or in a team of four. I have opted for the

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

do some runs,

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

and you do a kilometer run, And then a couple of different exercises each.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

you do it, so,

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Um, no, you do it. So you do your own. Yeah, but I know that in the pairs, they do

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

do all of them.

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

yeah.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

I

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

I really

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

don't know what I'm getting myself

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

into.

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

And I presume it's going to be pretty hard because I think there's burpees. Well, I, I know that there's burpees.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

are you doing the burpees. Well, we

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Well, we haven't decided. So

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Yeah, we have

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

yeah. So team of four and there's eight different exercises. And so you do two exercises each. And so there's like ski, a rowing, a walking lunges. And then like sled push and pull and then there's a couple of others as well. I am probably a bit annoying. The wall balls are one thing that I can't do. I would get us disqualified because my ankles are so stiff. I can't squat low enough to actually do

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Okay, I was wondering about this. Um, whether you can use those. Because you put your heels

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Yeah, no, you can't. Which is kind of good. I'm hopeless at them anyway, so it's probably a good, good for the team that I can't do them.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

So,

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

So, yes. Anyway, I will see how we go. I'm actually excited. I reckon it will be great people watching. And I'm pumped to do something that as everyone can probably tell, I have absolutely no idea about.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

But you've been doing, you guys been doing training every week?

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Yes, we've been doing a session each week at a local gym in Richmond, which I've actually, I think it was my best activity last week. I've been really, really enjoying it. It's been so nice to get my heart rate up. I did actually it was pretty funny yesterday. this off topic, but I've never done a bench press

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

actually going to say, a little buddy told me that you might be a beast at the

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

no,

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

the

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

the beast himself.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

Um,

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Um,

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

yes, I was at the gym again with Joe

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

we were

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

and we were doing bench presses and I've never done one before. I can't even remember what weight was on there, but I thought it looked fairly small. So I thought it would be fine. Anyway, I have Lifted it up and then brought it down to my chest and then realized that I couldn't really lift it. So then I was like squirming to get it back to the pole. It was pretty funny.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

terrifying. So wait, you genuinely don't know what exercises you're doing. No. What's your best bet on what you'll be doing? could choose,

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Oh, if I could choose, this will actually be interesting because the girls that I'm in a team with will be listening after we've already done it. If I could choose in an ideal world, I reckon I'd do the ski egg and rowing egg.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

Oh really?

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Oh, really? Are they a bit more cardio?

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Yeah. Yeah. I

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

So they'll be highly sought after. I imagine.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

a group,

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

a group, among a group of runners.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

is it

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Is it true that you guys are aiming for a podium finish? Some

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

say, it depends who you ask.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

you ask.

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Yes, our team captain, Izzy. Her nickname is Jim.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

She's also

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

also a beast.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

She's

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

is aiming for the podium Um,

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

Do you have

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Do you have team nicknames?

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

No. Oh, only Izzy. Yeah, she's just Jim. Similar to Ken Beecher's Izzy

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Yeah, Jim. Yeah. So she's pushing you guys, but she's saying, come on guys,

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

guys. Yeah, we can do it. Yeah, yeah. And the rest of us are nodding in agreeance because we are terrified of

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Of

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Jim's arms.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

wow.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

well, I'm really excited to debate. I can't have a few more questions. Do you feel nervous at all? Like how would you compare this to people like competing in a race?

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

I am not in the slightest bit nervous. Because

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

nervous. No, I think it will be

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

No, I it'll definitely be hard each time we go to the gym. It's a hard workout, but I just have absolutely no expectations. So it doesn't matter how fast or slow I do it, I will be happy. Yeah. Yeah. So are you

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

are you excited?

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Yeah, I'm excited. I reckon be fun. Yeah. Yeah.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Um, okay. And if you do get on the podium How are you going to celebrate,

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Yeah, I think if we get on the podium, I'll just show everyone my guns.

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

guns. Yeah, that's

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

right. I mean, I owe it to

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

It's the

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

if I'm on the podium.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

Yeah. What are

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

What are those

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

it. I like put them away.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

Well,

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Well, good luck. Thank you.

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

Thank you. To wrap up today's episode, we thought we would,

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

jump back into the running hot takes. Yeah! Yeah, because as we alluded to last time, there were so many other good ones that were sent through. And even since then, we've had a few more one more each that we're going to

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

yep. Um,

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Um, do you want to kick us off? Yeah.

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

the hot take that I'm choosing is Black Sox with Black Runners is bang average.

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

actually an interesting one coming from you because I've heard you have

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Yes, but

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

disagree with

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

with this Cold take. I think

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

that Black Sox with Black Runners Um, I just think it looks quite nice. I'm a big advocate for dark colored footwear and also socks because it just doesn't show up the dirt marks. And I actually, I genuinely think it looks really cool together because then it doesn't matter. What the rest of your outfit is

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

Because

ZOOM0020_Tr3:

they are black like you can do whatever you want If you wore bright blue Then it would look cool or if you wear all black like a few of our friends always are in black. And they kind of look stealthy like they look really cool You

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

what? I totally disagree

DJI_20241212082339_0001_D:

just,

ZOOM0020_Tr4:

just, I I agree black socks black shoes. I'm like you look like you're at School totally fine, like, there's nothing wrong with it, but bang out, like, yeah. But yeah, it's just fine. And like the black clothes. I feel like in Melbourne. Everyone wears black clothes running all the time. And I don't, I'm not about it, I like some colour.

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do

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know about it, I like some

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look sleek, chic. Yeah. Okay. What? Yeah. Well I I just.

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I'm

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Well, I like um, I don't like ankle socks in general. Someone else submitted one about, um, a hot take about ankle socks. You can't wear ankle socks unless you're like A 40 year old man.

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ankle socks unless you're like Yeah, no, no. I mean, I just think ankle socks To Alright. What is your running hot take? Well, the

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I have selected Is, um, running shoe reviews. are useless because everyone is so

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different.

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Running shoe reviews are everywhere. and I watch them and listen to them and take them. into consideration. And I actually think that there is a grain of, a strong like element of truth to them. And I don't think running shoe review should ever be given as like, strong recommendations. It's almost like, you know how you're not allowed to give financial advice if you're not like, a, you have to kind of say like, not financial advice. And I kind of feel like with shoes, it is so fine to say that this is your experience of the shoe. And then people can take from that what they will and be like, oh yeah. You know, that's relevant to me or that's not, but to be like, you will love this shoe. You obviously can't really say that

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that Yeah, I agree. It's similar to when we were speaking about the smart devices and garments and how the data that they give you should be like used as a guide, but it's not medical advice. I feel like it's a bit similar in nature in the sense that that's someone's experience and it can be used as a guide. But everyone's. Anatomy is different, their feet are different, so No one is going to feel exactly the same in the

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pair of shoes, what, that person's experience of the shoe is. And of course there are just going to be some universal truths about the shoe, and its purpose and how it's designed that is still really useful. So, I reckon useful, but I think people maybe need to almost say when they're doing them, like, Hey, this is obviously, like, going to be my experience, like, try them on and see what works for you. or Or if you're this kind of runner, it might work, or

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rather than being like, this shoe's good, this shoe's

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Yeah, exactly exactly

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I agree with that. It's Good hot take.

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Good hot take.

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right, I

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think it. is

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Thank you so much for listening. Once again, we have one more week before Christmas.

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wow, we

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wow, we have one more week and we're going to be doing we've got another interview with Jess next week so get pumped for that

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But yes, have a great week. Please follow, like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And thank you for continuing to support Cheeky.

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good luck this

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luck

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Oh, thank you. Needed.

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Me too.

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on the podium. Bye.

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podium. Bye.