Cheeky Run Club

Are you addicted to running?

• Anna Coldham • Season 5 • Episode 3

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Hiya legends <3 

This week, we’re unpacking whether we’re *actually* addicted to running and, if so, whether the pros outweigh the cons. At the end of the episode, we also want to hear your take on this week’s spicy listener question!

Cheeky Run Club's first birthday party is also this Saturday in Melbourne! We’re celebrating with a 5km run followed by coffee/breaky/cake/chats.

If walking is more your style, that’s fine as well! Every pace and running ability is welcome (this includes our four-legged friends too!)

Thank-you so much to this episodes sponsor - the legends at Ultra Violette 🌟

LINKS:

  • Register for our first birthday party here
  • Listen to Anna's dopamine pod rec here

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, Tiktok, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

Music produced by Hugh Raper. Logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

Anna:

Cheeky

Phoebe:

Run Club recognises that every day we live, work and run on Aboriginal land.

ZOOM0027_Tr3 2:

This episode is proudly sponsored by Ultraviolet. Our choice of skin protection for running and life.

Phoebe:

Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello Anna.

Anna:

Hello Phoebe.

Phoebe:

And hello listeners. Cheers.

Anna:

This week. We're going to try and answer a very important question. Are we addicted to running? And how do you know if you are also addicted to running? And

IMG_3243:

so,

Phoebe:

in the case that we are,

Anna:

is that actually a bad

Phoebe:

thing?

Anna:

We'll then answer a hot and spicy listener question, but before we kick off our notable runs of the week, Pheebs, it is our first birthday party this Saturday in Cremorne.

Phoebe:

Yes, our birthday party will be less than one week away when this episode comes out, which is extremely exciting. I I've been checking multiple times a day how many people have registered because we opened up for registrations a couple days ago. We're on 130 attendees right now, which is super exciting. Basically, the way the day will work is how every birthday should be celebrated, really, which is that we're going to meet at

Anna:

8am.

Phoebe:

at Greenon, which is in Cremorne, Richmond in Melbourne. we will go for five kilometre run. It's going to be plenty of pace groups.

Anna:

one left

Phoebe:

left behind. There's even, I, I have even had to have a friend ask if she could come and just take her dog for a walk. And I said, absolutely. Maybe we can have a dog walking group up the back.

Anna:

actually I have a friend who's just going to come for the coffee.

Phoebe:

Oh, perfect. Okay. Yeah. Just the coffee. All fine. All welcome. and then off the run, we have lots of goodies for you.

Anna:

And just all around good vibes. I feel like what we speak about on the podcast quite a lot is that our favourite part of running is that sense of connection. And after the run it'll all be about that and refuelling, obviously.

Phoebe:

Yes! Can't wait to see you there. Woo!

Anna:

So, Pheebs, now getting on to the good stuff. Tell me about your worst run of the week.

Phoebe:

adjacent activity? Yeah, it was a run and, and some things surrounding the run. And it was this morning.

Anna:

Oh,

Phoebe:

Yeah, um, sorry to mention that because we ran together with some friends. Actually, you know what, the specific part where we were running was really nice. I decided to be really organized. I thought the place where we're meeting for the run is just so close to my work, I should just ride into work first, drop off my stuff there, run to meet everyone, go for the run, run straight to work afterwards. That sounds really good, but then the reality of that was like, getting up. just after five, like so early, it's really dark in Melbourne at the moment in the mornings. And then went for the run, which was quite nice, but then afterwards, this also is quite Not that organized of me, but I locked myself out of the office because we have a new lock system and then you went to bring your phone with you and I had left my phone in the office

Anna:

office.

Phoebe:

then this is kind of Roughly adjacent we had to we have had multiple incidents over the last few months you and I were post run

Anna:

we have to call the

Phoebe:

to call the police and We were just standing around having a long chat,

IMG_3243:

Minding

Anna:

our

Phoebe:

minding our own business. And yeah, we saw it. Solving

Anna:

the world's problems.

Phoebe:

And then we, yeah, we basically just heard a man like screaming on the main street near where we were. A really busy road which has lots of people walking. And

Anna:

Yeah, but fully

Phoebe:

like. Like, I think

Anna:

Yeah. And we were about 150 meters away or so would you say? And it was almost deafening.

Phoebe:

I would've said like 50.

Anna:

Yeah, but you've got to put a bit of

Phoebe:

nail on. Yeah. We were really, we weren't really, we were on a whole different block,

Anna:

different group. Yes, that

Phoebe:

is true. Because you know when we were when we peaked over, so we heard somebody yelling, we peeked over the hedges. I expected him to be right

Anna:

there. Yeah.

Phoebe:

he was like on the other block. Yeah. And he wasn't just yelling, he was yelling really aggressive. threatening, swearing, not at anyone in particular. Like, I obviously feel quite sad for someone like that, but he was a massive guy. And anyway, we, you called, you called the police and let them know.

Anna:

them know. No, we're

Phoebe:

know, we're really, Neighbourhood watch. Neighbourhood watchmen. Neighbourhood watchmen.

Anna:

watchmen. Um,

Phoebe:

so all in all, It was just a really hectic morning and by the time I finally got into work to like have a shower and start my day, which I'd then forgotten my breakfast, which I'd organized the night before. Anyway, this has

Anna:

has become

Phoebe:

really long and not that interesting

Anna:

not that interesting interview. Ten minutes later.

Phoebe:

what was your worst run or running adjacent activity? Worst

Anna:

say my worst run was also this morning.

Phoebe:

I know, I know. I know, I know.

Anna:

And then I thought, you know what? I'll do one better. Um, now the run, the run itself was actually quite nice, but then it was just a bit frazzled afterwards. And then it ended up being way too long. without

Phoebe:

I did it.

Anna:

eating breakfast. Yeah. Yeah. No,

Phoebe:

The run was spot on. Yeah.

Anna:

and then, you know, when you're just like so hungry and then I got home, this is kind of funny now because it's over, but I feel like this stuff just always happens to me. last week I locked myself and four dogs out

Phoebe:

of the house. Yeah, that's

Anna:

Okay, this morning, our house is, it's like a small brick house, and then there's a laneway on the left, and there's a a locked gate to the, what, what do you call it?

Phoebe:

Like a little easement

Anna:

Easement, yeah, yeah. Anyway, and then, Ted runs up and down there because he obviously likes to like see what's going on in the street And so he ran up and then he obviously saw that I was home So I was like getting really excited and my partner Dave had called me on the way home to say just a reminder Can you unlock the? Um, someone's coming to check the gas meter. Anyway, so I thought as I walked in, I thought I'll unlock it now because otherwise I'll forget. So exactly. So I like put the keys through and put the little key in the padlock. Ted's obviously excited, has jumped up and got my keys

Phoebe:

and taken

Anna:

them and has run down the easement and in this little like happy dance because he's like playing with me, has the keys and I was like mother chucker, I need those keys and so then for a few

Phoebe:

know, I took them for

Anna:

So then for a few minutes, I was like, come on, um, and that did not work. And then, so I ended up having to climb over the fence to get the keys, but. This fence should not be climbed.

Phoebe:

high is it?

Anna:

Oh, it's not the, it's not that it's high. It's. It's just, it's definitely seen better days. I feel like it's on it's last legs. Yeah, so I was kind of swaying all over the place as I was getting over there. But came out alive.

Phoebe:

You made it. Made it. Oh gosh. Well, we didn't have a good morning for getting locked out of things.

Anna:

getting off to happen. No. Yeah. Um, give me your

Phoebe:

Well, my best run was on Saturday. Which, yes. Oh, really? Yes! Hooray! On Saturday, I was a little bit under the weather. I had been for the last few days. And so I decided, you know what, I'm not going to do my longie. I'm just going to do whatever. Just a really easy, gentle run. Not worry about, Any time or whatever, just literally go for a run and have a little recovery run. And that we did, and it was a beautiful morning, we ran along the beach, and we finished it the best possible way you can ever finish a run. Which is go for a swim

Anna:

Oh heaven. Yeah.

Phoebe:

literally, afterwards, I actually like felt better.

Anna:

Yeah. And

Phoebe:

and I was so

IMG_3243:

proud of myself

Anna:

I know. I was gonna say, I'm actually very proud of you for, because

Phoebe:

rested Friday as well

Anna:

Rested resting Friday and then not

Phoebe:

doing your longie my

IMG_3243:

And then

Anna:

that by the time

IMG_3243:

time I did do my longie on Sunday

Anna:

Did you do your longie on Sunday Oh, full one, but um,

Phoebe:

yeah no, no A well yes

Anna:

it was a full one but

Phoebe:

it was a day late

IMG_3243:

Because I let myself rest.

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

by then I felt way better.

Anna:

nice baby steps So just stay Well, you

Phoebe:

you know what we're getting there Yeah, progress

Anna:

you're alive and not sick

Phoebe:

exactly. What was your best run of

Anna:

progress. Yeah,

Phoebe:

No way!

Anna:

What was your best run? With people on a Saturday morning. I feel like that is just the epitome of running, going for a swim after. I was a little bit cheeky, As you may remember, I'm only allowed to run for 30 minutes at the moment, but I ran for 34.

Phoebe:

34. Yeah, I reckon it might have been.

Anna:

one. Um, he? Funny because we're about to talk about being addicted to

Phoebe:

Yeah. But. Yeah. You

Anna:

aside, it was really nice. And we saw one of our girlfriend's aunts who I haven't run with in quite a while.

Phoebe:

she's just such a delight.

Anna:

and then had a long coffee after. It was great.

Phoebe:

It was absolutely lovely.

ZOOM0027_Tr3 2:

a heads up, we touch on themes of addiction in this episode. So if that's something that's tough for you, feel free to skip or take care while listening.

Phoebe:

Okay. Let's get stuck into our core topic for the day, which is, are you addicted to running? And I mean, we decided to, you're like grinning in anticipation. We decided to have this conversation because we have this sort of general rule of thumb for cheeky where. We want to have the conversations on this podcast that reflect the kind of conversations that we are having on runs or with our friends sort of about running. And actually earlier this week, this was something that was sort of put to us. The question of like, are you, are you addicted to running? And we actually just thought, what an interesting question to explore.

Anna:

Mmm. And,

Phoebe:

are we addicted to running? How do you know if you are? And if you are, is that a bad thing? Yeah, so we thought the way that we'd approach this is, I mean, obviously we're not psychologists, we're not doctors, we're not going to be making any sort of actual, diagnoses here, but we did think we'd talk a little bit about what this means and go through what are some of the criteria for the actual disorder of addiction, and then discuss if we sort of Fulfill any of them.

Anna:

So we should say being addicted to running isn't a medical diagnosis, but more just like a topic of conversation that we think is quite interesting.

Phoebe:

Yeah, there's no, you're right, there's nothing, there's no like clinically diagnosable mental illness that is running addiction. There is a kind of theory around exercise dependency, which is more of a compulsion. It's still not an actual real diagnosis, but I think we can kind of talk about how some of those things come through as well.

Anna:

I think what I'm most interested in hearing is. your own self reflection, but then also discussing whether or not it's actually a bad thing or not.

Phoebe:

Yeah, bit of a philosophical one. Yeah,

Anna:

Yeah,

Phoebe:

Yeah, um, you know what's so funny? Last night, I said to Sean, guess what we're going to do with the topic? Anna and I are going to do, are you addicted to running? And he literally Cracked up laughing and he was like that is the and I was like wouldn't that be so interesting to explore and he was just like I cannot wait to listen to this vodka so we're gonna find out

Anna:

first, second time ever.

Phoebe:

yeah yeah yeah

Anna:

Potentially.

Phoebe:

so yeah, as I said, we, we actually have gone through and we've taken out all the criteria for addiction or substance use disorder that is in the actual DSM 5, which is the manual that, psychologists use to make clinical diagnoses, and we've sort of adjusted each of them so they apply to running, and we're just going to talk through them. We're going to pose the question. I encourage you, if you're listening, to have a bit of self reflection. Think. Well, how would I answer this?

Anna:

Alright, these criteria, for addiction normally fall under four basic categories, which is impaired control, physical dependence, social problems, and risky use.

Phoebe:

we

Anna:

Here, the sound of

Phoebe:

If you can hear the sound of someone, what's it called? Mastication.

Anna:

I don't

Phoebe:

chewing. Mastic.

Anna:

I snorted.

Phoebe:

If you hear the sound of someone really aggressively chewing, should we actually put the mic up to Ted?

Anna:

Welcome Ted to the pod.

Phoebe:

Yeah, so no,

Anna:

Our guest speaker.

Phoebe:

slurping or some mouth screaming, then

Anna:

It's not Phoebe.

Phoebe:

Anyway, number one, give us the first criteria, Anna.

Anna:

Imagine if it's just you on the side.

IMG_3243:

I'm like,

Phoebe:

my carb intake.

Anna:

Never stops. Okay, so first bit of criteria is using more of a substance than intended or using it for longer than you're meant to.

Phoebe:

Okay. Do you

Anna:

with this, yes or no?

Phoebe:

actually going to, well, depends how you define meant to, because in my head, I think meant to is my program. And by that criteria, I used to do this all the time. I used to run more than what was on my program. And now I very rarely do because I'm just not that motivated

Anna:

anymore. But

Phoebe:

I actually, now that I'm saying that, I'm wondering if. I would have some friends who would say and family members who would say my program is more than I meant to.

Anna:

Yeah. I don't think it's program related. I think it's

IMG_3243:

holistically. Well

Phoebe:

then define how long you're meant to

Anna:

well, I feel like, for instance, not putting words in your mouth, but Sunday long run, doing your full long run after you've had the day off'cause you are sick and couldn't go to work, and then felt a tiny bit better the next day.

IMG_3243:

Okay.

Anna:

I would say you're probably not meant to then run for

Phoebe:

hours. I think it's all semantics really.

Anna:

all semantics. Hypothetically speaking. I reckon

Phoebe:

reckon I used to be, like years ago, I used to never be able to run less than what was in my program. It was in my program, no matter what, I had to do it. Whereas now. I reckon multiple times a week, I end up doing a slightly different run than what's in my program. Even this morning, like, I was meant to do an hour 20. And I did 45 minutes. Because I was going to have to get up at 4. 40 or something. And I was like, uh, this feels extreme.

Anna:

So

Phoebe:

So I think less so now for this one. What about you?

Anna:

I feel

Phoebe:

Well I feel like you did just say, I was only meant to run for

Anna:

to make

Phoebe:

ran for 34. Yeah, true. No,

Anna:

definitely, but I'm, I am definitely better more probably just from other people restricting me than I used to. But I am the same. I feel like whenever I did have a program, I would always have to run.

IMG_3243:

Not

Anna:

Wouldn't have to run more. Would have to run either equal to or more. Yes. Would never stop beforehand. Would never stop beforehand,

Phoebe:

before. Yep, Okay, the second one, well the running version of it, is trying to run less or stop running but being unable to. Which kind of has some relation to the first.

Anna:

first.

Phoebe:

This one's actually more of a

Anna:

oh, yeah. So I, I feel like I've been pretty diligent recently about my running Restriction. Yeah. You,

Phoebe:

that's because I feel like you've been given hard

Anna:

Yeah, yeah. Rather than being a physio, being like maybe only run a couple of times a week.

IMG_3243:

Yes.

Phoebe:

yeah. In which case? This has been like, no, that's kind of extreme. And to be fair, if you had kept running despite that, then that actually would have been like more of an

Anna:

been like,

Phoebe:

you actually weren't able to. Yeah. And what about you? I think, I really struggle with this. This is probably more so than the one above, is trying to run less. When I'm injured or tired mm-hmm Like, I find that so hard. Hard. Yeah. Yeah. To actually, like, it's not that I, I am doing it more and more and more. It's just like I can't, I struggle to stop doing it even when I should recognize that at this for this day or this point in my life. I need to, yeah. I'm not,

Anna:

it was someone else, you would Yeah. Direct them differently to your actions.

Phoebe:

Interesting. Number three.

Anna:

Yes. So the running version is experiencing intense cravings or urges to run. I actually don't think, I don't experience this. Like I always want to go for a run, but it's not an intense

Phoebe:

craving or urge. I actually often, weirdly, physically don't want to go

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

know what I mean?

Anna:

then, for the first,

Phoebe:

actually getting started. You know what I feel like I crave though? Actually, this is so interesting to reflect on. If I haven't run, crave the feeling of having been for a run.

Anna:

You know, that

Phoebe:

that like energy crossed with feeling a little bit tired, but so happy. Yeah. Like I feel like that's, it's probably more that I would experience cravings to have

Anna:

been for

Phoebe:

run. Yeah. But not do the run itself, which actually you were telling me something really interesting before we started recording about you. You were listening to

Anna:

yeah, this is actually so interesting. So I was listening to a podcast and they were explaining dopamine levels increase over the latter half of exercise. And then when exercise stops, the dopamine levels will remain elevated for hours afterwards before actually going back down to your baseline level. without actually going into a dopamine deficit state. So in contrast to alcohol or, like having a

Phoebe:

fight or something like that. Gambling. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Anna:

don't actually experience those negative side effects after the high. So it's a great way to get dopamine indirectly cause it's much less vulnerable. To that, compulsive craving of overuse in other aspects of life, This podcast was talking about how, a true addiction to running, is possible, but it's less likely because the upfront cost to do the work and endure the pain of exercise mitigates our vulnerability to exercise addiction. So for instance, in comparison to alcohol addiction or gambling, where it is such a simple task and instant validation or sense of satisfaction to get to the point where you're having those benefits from exercise, it's quite a long time and also you have to put in a lot of effort, so it's less likely.

Phoebe:

Yes, that is exa that's exactly what I feel like is reflected here.

Anna:

here,

Phoebe:

It's probably right to crave the physical discomfort that is

Anna:

Yeah, you

Phoebe:

a way.

Anna:

the feeling after.

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

I think I've said that to you even at the moment, I just miss being sweaty and tired. Which is kind of

Phoebe:

that, yeah. I

Anna:

haven't really been able to wrap my head around it.

Phoebe:

head around Cause that's the time when you're feeling all the benefits of the

Anna:

Of the run

Phoebe:

when you're feeling all the dope or the, what did it be endocannabinoids?

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

Okay. Criterion number four is needing to run more and more to get the desired effect, which is also called tolerance.

Anna:

I actually don't think this and maybe that's because I'm running for me so little at the moment, but every single time I go for a run, I still feel really good afterwards. But yeah, I mean, I might have had a different answer, say, if it was six months ago and I was running 100 kilometers a week and then someone said run 60 kilometers this

Phoebe:

Yeah. But maybe

Anna:

maybe I wouldn't have had that same

Phoebe:

Yeah. What do you think? Well yeah, I feel like running has a natural ceiling almost because running more is also like that much harder. However, I do reckon there was probably a time when I was running way less where I could have run for five minutes and been like, whoa, that was

Anna:

a really good point.

Phoebe:

true. Whereas now, like, so maybe it does, but then once you get up to regularly running for half an hour or more, like, it's not really that much of a difference.

Anna:

really that much of a difference. Yeah. Actually, maybe I do just because I feel like I remember sometimes if I had a half hour run when I was running a

Phoebe:

lot.

Anna:

I'd be like, Oh, it's barely

Phoebe:

that is exactly,

Anna:

or not that it's barely a run, but you just don't have that

Phoebe:

don't even

Anna:

Whereas now, cause that's the longest that I run or 34 minutes, but I really appreciate that. So yeah, maybe, maybe I

Phoebe:

Well, it kind of makes sense because it's the same effect in the brain. you're getting more and more of a dopamine hit, and a cannabinoid hit, so you need more and more.

Anna:

Yeah. number five, developing withdrawal symptoms when not running. don't

Phoebe:

I don't know, I I mean, what we can say is that we know when we've been in the habit of running a lot and we have a running habit and then you stop doing it, you definitely miss it and it can impact your mood and all those sorts

Anna:

quality of life.

Phoebe:

Yeah. I actually was reading somewhere about the difference between. Exercise dependency and,

IMG_3243:

some

Phoebe:

other forms of addiction is if you have true exercise dependency, which I actually don't exactly know what that is, but if you are, then you're not engaging in the behavior or the exercise in pursuit of a reward. So if you depend on it, you're not doing it because it makes you feel good. You're doing it to avoid the negative feelings associated with not doing it. So it would in by this definition, it's saying you're only running to avoid what it feels like when you're not running.

Anna:

That's really tricky.

Phoebe:

that's quite complicated.

Anna:

Because, I mean, arguably that is the reason why a lot of the time you do it. Like, for instance, before you were saying that you crave the feeling

Phoebe:

having been for a run. And I do think, if I'm being really honest, I feel like that feeling is something that I need. When I don't go for a run in the morning. I guess you've been experiencing this with like cutting runs out. It's like, I just don't have that same amount of energy and so

Anna:

No. Or drive. Yeah. I feel like because you get so used to it, because it's part of a routine. I guess we were speaking about that last week, but I feel like I have that and then I'm way better at concentrating. You have more energy,

Phoebe:

Although,

Anna:

more patience. You know

Phoebe:

what's interesting? If you weren't running at all, ever. You also wouldn't have that boost of energy. I actually feel like running is additive. And not running probably just brings me back to baseline. Do you know what I mean?

Anna:

know what I mean? No.

Phoebe:

No, it's, it's, no, not at all. I actually feel like I have much more energy than a lot of people that, Well, especially after a run, I'll feel really energetic like at work and so on. And

IMG_3243:

yeah.

Anna:

If I,

Phoebe:

If I didn't, I'd notice the difference.'cause I'd have less than I would if I'd been for a run, but I would just be on baseline probably with everyone else. Yeah. this is a very tangled web. Yeah. This is,

IMG_3243:

This

Anna:

is

Phoebe:

let's just, let's just tie a little bow on that one and move on to the next one.

Anna:

It's messy wrapping. Uh, number six. Spending more time thinking about running, and recovering from running.

Phoebe:

I mean, like less so

Anna:

certain

Phoebe:

now, because I think now we're both really actively trying to be a bit more balanced with our approach to running. But when I think about last year, we were thinking, and again, we can discuss whether this is a good or a bad thing, but it was thinking how can we prep the best for our runs, how can we make sure we're eating the right things, how can we make sure we're recovering and resting and all these different things, that's all, that's a lot of time thinking about running. Yeah. It's a lot of.

Anna:

you become consumed by it. And I would look as soon as my program was updated, I'd be looking at it because I'd be excited of, and a bit nervous as to what I was doing next week. So I,

Phoebe:

I

Anna:

like not now, but when I'm running heaps, then, yeah.

Phoebe:

have been times when this has definitely been a yes, Number seven is Neglecting responsibilities at home, work, or school because of running. So do you feel like you do this?

Anna:

do this? it depends who you

Phoebe:

ask. Well, should we get Dave in?

Anna:

I was gonna say Dave would probably say yes. I think I do personally when I'm running heaps.

IMG_3243:

Purely,

Anna:

Not because of the running act itself, but because I'm tired from running. So I feel like I'll be more inclined, so yeah, I guess that's running as

Phoebe:

I'll be more inclined to, yeah, I guess

Anna:

the Oh,

Phoebe:

something to hold.

Anna:

Uh, no, definitely not. Like If Dave was to ever say this is an issue then I would 100 percent stop running. Not stop running, but pull it back.

Phoebe:

It's funny because my answer is definitely yes, but not with Sean, like not in my current relationship, but I've had a relationship before where it was actually like a real point of tension with us yet. He was very miffed by all the time I was spending running and that I put so much of my energy into running.

Anna:

and not him,

Phoebe:

but I just, I feel like that was more a reflection of that relationship and I didn't see it as a super serious relationship. I think I was like, this is great, having fun, but not about to Change anything major about my life because of it. Yeah. Essentially. I

Anna:

guess in that vein then I could say yes. Because I feel like in my previous relationship it did. But I think that was a bit of a catalyst. Because I just wanted to run with

Phoebe:

to

Anna:

all right. Number nine, giving up important or desirable social and recreation activities due to running.

IMG_3243:

we

Phoebe:

Well, I mean, the answer is probably yes. Well, I don't know if I would say, like, important, Like, I drink way less because of running. So I don't know, I don't know if where you put that in, desirable, that is drinking a desirable recreational activity, I don't know.

Anna:

Well, it's recreational, I'd say. But is it because of running that makes you not do that? Or you would just rather,

Phoebe:

I feel like I've, been probably just gotten less and less interested in drinking throughout my life. Well, not throughout my life, like peaked at an age

Anna:

I loved it when I was a toddler,

Phoebe:

And then I just don't have that much interest in it anymore anyway, but I definitely feel like running accelerated that because well, why would I want to, if I'm going to feel rubbish when I run tomorrow? what about you?

Anna:

I would say no, last year I had a goal

Phoebe:

of

Anna:

saying no to some things, but I would never miss anything important. And I would normally always still go to things. And a lot of the time, like to the point where I was trying to go to too much and also run. Yeah. Yep, it.

Phoebe:

probably. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I think that I wouldn't really let it stop me from running. I don't know, when traveling or whatever, I didn't really, I was like, Oh, I'm going for a run, I'll figure it out. So not, terrible danger, I would say, I mean, to be fair, any woman running at nighttime,

IMG_3243:

I

Anna:

like that's technically

Phoebe:

That's technically a risky set, but we don't, you don't have a choice. Yeah, really?

Anna:

Yeah. I, yeah, I know what you mean. obviously being a woman and going out on a run by yourself, in the early morning or late at night or in a remote area is a bit dangerous, but I wouldn't say that's putting yourself in a risky position. Oh, I don't know. I guess maybe it is. I remember my mother in law actually being worried about me running in the country by myself in the mornings when I would go and visit her and I didn't really.

Phoebe:

Run with the cows.

Anna:

No, no. Yeah, that was actually quite fun.

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

but I never really thought of that as well. So I guess, yeah, maybe.

IMG_3243:

Yeah,

Phoebe:

I feel like, though, occasionally I've been for a run, say, in a new city, and I've had a, you know, bad experience, I've been heckled or whatever, and I would never go and run in that area again. Yeah. You know, I'd, I'd change my route,

Anna:

you don't, I feel like you don't do it knowingly. No. Like, if I thought an area was bad, you're obviously not going to run there. And actually, in fact, when my colleague Trish and I went to America last year, and we were told not to run, so then we just jumped on the treadmill.

Phoebe:

Yes, that's right.

Anna:

Yes, finally got one.

Phoebe:

Yes. Okay, but what about this last one, continuing to run despite it causing problems to your physical and mental

Anna:

to your physical and mental

Phoebe:

feel personally victimized. Unknowingly.

Anna:

it's not that black and white.

Phoebe:

was happening.

Anna:

But I would say that's actually not causing physical harm if you're not doing something, for instance, the tendon stuff, running on it doesn't make it worse. You actually need to load it up different if you're running on a niggle, it's probably a stress fracture.

Phoebe:

Well, I don't know that the knowledge is the core part here because the fact is people and we have both given ourselves reasonably serious injuries running like tendinopathies, whatever that is, bone stress, whether knowingly or not, it's because we pushed ourself that much with our running. And I actually think this is what it's getting to. I don't think it's saying you, you knew and you did it anyway. And I don't think we take this to the extreme, but I would say one of the most shocking things about running sometimes to step back from running as a culture is how many people get serious injuries and stress factors. Like that is not normal.

Anna:

Yeah, that's

Phoebe:

that. And there aren't, there are not other,

Anna:

that doesn't

Phoebe:

other exercises, hobbies. You're not, you're not breaking your bones and yet that's actually so normalized to get a stressy. It's a thing that people talk about as if it's almost like a funny thing. I've got a stressy, gotta stressy. You're pushing

Anna:

was pushing it just a little

Phoebe:

too much. I kind of, not that I think it's justifiable. If you're a professional. But it is more understandable like it's your job.

Anna:

You really want to almost walk that line of doing too much because if you're just a bit below then, you're going to get the best out of yourself. Totally. But obviously they sometimes

Phoebe:

a little bit too far. But then amateur runners doing this much damage to ourselves, which we do,

Anna:

do, like,

Phoebe:

a more or less extent, but particularly repeatedly, I think you have to ask a question of, is there a problem there? definitely think, I feel like. I'm a yes there. I, I have given myself enough injuries running, or, burnt myself out that I can't, in good faith,

Anna:

Say.

Phoebe:

do that anymore.

Anna:

well, I mean, yeah, I was sort of more speaking, willingly. I

Phoebe:

Yeah, no.

Anna:

Or, sorry, knowingly. But, I guess, definitely have. so, I think it's pretty clear that from these statements we would both

Phoebe:

think we tick a few boxes.

Anna:

definitely took

Phoebe:

We don't want to do any I mean, we

Anna:

can't

IMG_3243:

ourselves,

Phoebe:

ourselves, but However. We tick some boxes,

Anna:

So is this a good thing or a bad thing? fundamentally, is being addicted to running good or bad?

Phoebe:

Well, it's funny, so one of the, in preparation for this episode, one of the things I end up doing is going deep on Reddit threads of people trying to unpack whether or not they were addicted to running. and whether it was good or not, and a lot of what the verdict was is Yeah, I am, but it's better

Anna:

better

Phoebe:

my previous, here's one. I'm 25 years sober, been running 25 years, saved my life. And they're saying they've been addicted to running for 25 years. This is another one. Just another sober runner chiming in. Running doesn't seem to carry quite the negative consequences as alcohol did for me. Yeah. like if you're gonna be addicted to something, something to be, well, I mean, I'm not, I don't wanna say that lightheartedly like they're clearly, no, this is a spectrum and clearly there are, there is an extent to which this would be extremely problematic and dysfunctional and that's very important to take seriously

Anna:

I kind of feel like, as you were saying, there's a bit of a spectrum. And I know that you were just saying then, obviously in those scenarios, it's a good thing. But in regards to someone who doesn't otherwise have an addiction. For instance, you and me. do you think it's a good thing to be addicted to running for yourself?

Phoebe:

I think it would be better if I was a bit less addicted.

Anna:

bit less

Phoebe:

I think it would be good.

IMG_3243:

what? For

Phoebe:

I feel like the main thing to me is not wanting to stop or run less, even when my body's telling me that I should.

Anna:

shouldn't. And,

Phoebe:

if you, the cost of that is that sometimes I run too much and I get sick and I have less energy to give my life, but then to weigh that against all the positives that I get from running, which which are numerous, there are so many positive benefits. I think net net running is no question still an amazing thing in my life. Yeah. But there are elements of it which could be more positive.

Anna:

Yeah. Yeah, it, it's kind of hard isn't it? Cause, I could definitely say the same in the sense that,

IMG_3243:

that.

Anna:

My life in some ways, would probably be better balanced and have more time for things or like capacity for different things if I was less obsessed with running, but then running makes me just a better person in like all facets of life. And like those two things aren't actually mutually exclusive, It exists together if I loved and was obsessed with running less, then

Phoebe:

Maybe

Anna:

would do, I don't know. Maybe I would do other things that like weren't quite as good. And I just, or I wouldn't have met people like for instance yourself this whole group of girlfriends that I feel like my people in a sense. So. Which then, makes me more confident, and then I'm surrounded, with such, great people around

Phoebe:

me. Yes. maybe that is the difference once it's tipped over anywhere near the scales of it's net having more of a negative impact in your life, then a positive, or if that's even a question that needs to be asked, then maybe okay, this has become a bad thing. Yeah. Whereas largely, there's a lot of great things in life that have. And I've got a bit of a shadow or dark side as well. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it's black and white and it's therefore bad, throw it out. Like,

Anna:

exactly. Like any, pretty, you could kind of argue everything in life.

Phoebe:

MMMH

Anna:

Anything that you really care about or you think has a big impact on you. And you think overall it's a really positive impact. There are always going to be some things that might be.

Phoebe:

Yeah. Not

Anna:

so great. I think we've

Phoebe:

we've nailed it. I think we've cracked the code. So,

Anna:

everyone, keep running.

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

I can't wait for my 35 minutes this Saturday, my long run. Nah, I really enjoyed that chat. I will actually say a stat that I did read, which I think is sort of indicative of our, culture and the world just at the moment in general, and how obviously it's not just you and I that are feeling maybe that we are quite dependent on exercise and running, but, from 1996 to 2008, participation in ultra marathons has increased by 376%. Yeah, crazy. Right. And, and so it's not just exercise, but it's the wellness.

Phoebe:

kind of

Anna:

So the ice bath market, was 350 million in 2024 and it is forecasted to be worth half a billion by 2030. And the reason why I've included the ice bath as well is because the rush that it gives you afterwards, is that dopamine effect that is similar to exercise. So people are obviously trying to seek out the dopamine that is. Less instantaneous, I guess, and that harder sort of set of dopamine.

Phoebe:

likely to have negative impact. Yeah. Yeah. that is interesting. I, the world is so addictive right now. And I think. more so than before because of social media the instant gratification, like everything is available to us all the time. And so it's almost a good thing to seek out ways to, feel good that don't have those kind of negative consequences. Um, that said. The moral of the story is probably, actual, like, addiction to anything means it has some negative consequences, so you want to avoid it.

Anna:

Yeah.

ZOOM0027_Tr4:

Anna, I have a confession to make. Ooh,

ZOOM0027_Tr3 2:

what is it? I

ZOOM0027_Tr4:

I was meant to go for a run this morning, but I woke up and it was 26 degrees already because we're in the middle of a massive heat wave in Melbourne, so I chickened out and I didn't run.

ZOOM0027_Tr3 2:

didn't run. You big chicken! Nah, it has truly been so, so hot recently. So we've been working extra hard to protect ourselves from the elements.

ZOOM0027_Tr4:

that's right. So we've been wearing Ultraviolet Sun Protection to death on all our runs. So we wanted to tell you a little bit about who they are and why we've partnered with them. It's

ZOOM0027_Tr3 2:

you a little bit about who they are and why we partnered with them.

ZOOM0027_Tr4:

That's right. As runners, we are always worried about putting too much product on our face pre run as we know there is nothing worse than stingy sunscreen in our eyes. So we've been loving the lightness

ZOOM0027_Tr3 2:

Skin

ZOOM0027_Tr4:

skin screens for runs, work, and

ZOOM0027_Tr3 2:

work, and beyond. Thanks to our friends at

ZOOM0027_Tr4:

try it for yourself. Always read

ZOOM0027_Tr3 2:

cheeky

ZOOM0027_Tr4:

prolonged high

ZOOM0027_Tr3 2:

a hat.

ZOOM0027_Tr4:

sun exposure. And make sure you reapply

ZOOM0027_Tr3 2:

Um,

Anna:

All right. Shall we get onto our listener question of the week?

Phoebe:

The listener question this week is, my friends and I have just completed a race and all of our watches say the course was a couple of hundred meters short. Can we still claim the PB? And so they did. The extra context is they did all get a PB and it was a half marathon

Anna:

And a verified course as well. It

Phoebe:

a very, yeah, right. It was a.

Anna:

the mix.

IMG_3243:

That is,

Anna:

It's a tricky one because I thought with Strava and Garmin, we say

Phoebe:

that

Anna:

you don't, for instance, if you're doing a half marathon and it says that the distance is longer,

Phoebe:

you

Anna:

take the time from when it says you cross that half marathon mark, because obviously that's not. No. Right. So, in the same vein, then shouldn't it be the same if it's reversed and it's coming up short? You should still

Phoebe:

take the course. Yeah. Yeah, so my gut is yes, you can still claim the PB if it's a verified course, I guess what I'd be interested in is looking whether there's any consistent, slower kilometers in was there a point in the run which was a bit of a black hole, GPS wise? And because if everyone had the slowest kilometer was kilometer three or something, and it was weirdly 10 seconds slower, then I wonder if there was a point where they actually noticed that their watches were slightly out because.

Anna:

wonder if there was a point where they actually noticed that their watches were slightly out. Well, no, I wonder if

Phoebe:

no, I wouldn't because they all, four of them, had it short. So that shows it's not your watch, you know what I mean? So, but I would say you can. If it's verified, I just think you have to trust that. I mean, I don't know, maybe there are some verified courses that are short. Yeah. I actually

Anna:

maybe there are some verified courses that are short. Yeah, I would,

Phoebe:

But I would, yeah, that's true. Like, what have you submitted to qualify as verified?

Anna:

So you personally, would you take the PB? Because this is what I found hard.

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

I think in that situation, I was thinking take the PB, obviously, that's your official time, blah, blah, blah. But then on reflection, if it was me. I Don't think I would because I haven't run the

Phoebe:

done the distance. No, I would. I actually would. I would claim it. I would say, yeah, I would. It's I was gonna say maybe I'd say like I got this time, but actually I don't know if the course was short But it was a verified and I'm like,

Anna:

it's yeah. Shut up. Just say also, it doesn't matter. It

Phoebe:

doesn't matter. That's,

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

that

Anna:

Oh, a hundred percent. I agree. I think definitely claim it, but it is, I just found it interesting. You're point of view for other people, but then if it was yourself, Oh, I don't know.

Phoebe:

don't know. Yeah,

Anna:

Yeah. Woo. Go team. Alright, I think that's all we have time for today.

Phoebe:

for

Anna:

Thank you for joining me

Phoebe:

on this Thursday

Anna:

Eve. We're recording in the evening, which has actually been fun.

Phoebe:

It has been fun considering how long it took us to set up.

Anna:

Golly gosh.

Phoebe:

We have a new lighting

Anna:

golly, golly,

Phoebe:

Every week we're experimenting with new lighting systems. And we're getting there, I would say. But it did take us

IMG_3243:

not know. Um,

Anna:

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'd rather not know.

Phoebe:

Yes. Thank you for listening.

Anna:

and we can't wait to be in your ears. No, no. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh true.

IMG_3243:

to

Phoebe:

you in real life! We are so excited! This Saturday, as many of you as possible, and we'll just have a great time!

Anna:

Can't wait. Bye.

Phoebe:

Bye! Bye!

IMG_3243:

Oh my god. Oh. No, no, you're fine.

Anna:

like, are you gonna say Oh yeah, that's me. Or,

Phoebe:

for each one. Yeah. I reckon we should go through. I think we

Anna:

we should too.

Phoebe:

yeah. That's good.

IMG_3243:

good.

Anna:

I second that. Gosh, you have great ideas.