Cheeky Run Club

The art of respecting the niggle

• Phoebe Pincus & Anna Coldham • Season 5 • Episode 9

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Happy Monday cheeky chums!

Todays ep is CRITICAL LISTENING because we discuss one of the tricksiest and most finicky part of running: the art of respecting the niggle. Note we say ART not science because we're not medical professionals and you obviously should seek medical advice where appropriate, however we also know that we don't all have the means to go tearing off to the physio everytime we get sore on a run. We chat about some good rules of thumb to help you identify what your niggle is/how serious it is, and then go through the tools you can have in your toolkit for managing them.

Stay until the end of the episode to help us settle an age-old runners' debate in our new segment, “Conversations with Friends."

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, Tiktok, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

Music produced by Hugh Raper. Logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

Phoebe:

Cheeky Run Club recognizes that every day we live, work and run on Aboriginal land.

Anna:

This episode is brought to you by Nike's After Dark Tour, the global race series starting in Sydney on April 12th.

Phoebe:

Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello, Anna.

Anna:

Hello, Phoebe.

Phoebe:

And hello, listeners.

Anna:

Today, we're going to talk about the art of respecting the niggle, which is probably one of the trickiest and most important skills to master for every runner. We're then going to introduce a new segment called conversations with friends. Podcast edition, where we unpack the topics that were discussed, debated, or a hot topic on a run recently.

Phoebe:

But first, as always, let's kick it off with our Notable Runs of the Week. Anna, tell me about your worst running related experience this week.

Anna:

Okay. Mine wasn't a run itself, but it impacts many runs, walks, day to day life. I

Phoebe:

you lamb again?

Anna:

No, he actually hasn't made lamb since, since that, since that horrid night. No. so I, we went to Sydney as everyone knows. And then I came back on Saturday afternoon, was a little bit tired getting off the plane, but like in a bit of a row, anyway, long story short, I was trying to quickly meet Dave before we headed down to Mount Martha on the Mornington Peninsula for the night. And I went to the car park, which some may have seen us arriving at the car park on our Instagram stories.

Phoebe:

to the

Anna:

went to the car park, drove off and then didn't look at my phone, being a good driver. and then when I pulled up to pick up Dave, I looked at my phone and it said Anna's AirPods. left behind.

Phoebe:

phone.

Anna:

I've left, I had my AirPods in though. So I've left the case only on the plane, like the back of the seat in front of me in the little pouch. And I've called Virgin so many times I've emailed them and they're like, yeah, we'll report it, blah, blah, blah. But nothing

Phoebe:

happened. And

Anna:

And it was kind of frustrating because I could see that the case, because I have it on my phone, my iPhone, I could see it was, they were still in the plane until the battery died a few days ago. So the plane was just going around Australia.

Phoebe:

then it

Anna:

And then it was back. So the, the case died whilst it was at the gate outside Boost Juice at Melbourne airport. Anyway, so I'm telling the people on the phone, like, I can see it. It's literally, it's outside, it's at the gate, at Boosters.

Phoebe:

They're

Anna:

They're like, they're probably not even at the airport. They

Phoebe:

Do you think someone took it in the end? Or

Anna:

I don't know because it just the battery would have died after a few days anyway so I don't know but um anyway so I'm headphones it has made me realized how reliant I am on my headphones

Phoebe:

Yes.

Anna:

just, I feel lost without them. I

Phoebe:

like it's not the first time you've lost your AirPods.

Anna:

know. I know. Yes, it's not the

Phoebe:

I wonder if next time you need to buy, one of those bigger, uh, like Beats or something that come in a big

Anna:

case? leave it. Yeah. Well, so my thing at the moment is, I'm not sure online you can just order a case only. Yeah, I'm not sure if I should do that or if I should just wait another week I think they're 160. Yeah. I actually went on Facebook Marketplace yesterday, searching for just a case. They're so rogue. All people selling one AirPod for 50. I'm like, surely no one's buying this. anyway, what is your worst run or running adjacent

Phoebe:

on Monday. Um, so is.

Anna:

picture this,

Phoebe:

It's Monday afternoon because I've flown back in from Sydney Monday morning.

Anna:

Melbourne had a public holiday Monday,

Phoebe:

had a public holiday Monday. We also had a bit of a heat wave. It was very warm. And so I eventually got myself out for a run that afternoon. Just By myself, I had a sore, Achilles, kind of, which we'll talk about soon, but that was like a little bit grumbly post the race. So I was really, you know, when you're by yourself on a run and you have a niggle and that's just a bad recipe. Running along the river, near my house on a trail. And I'm jogging, jogging, jogging in my head thinking about this head noise. And then I see A foot in front of me, this just massive snake.

Anna:

What? Here?

Phoebe:

it was huge. And. I was just so in my head that I just like hadn't seen it and I had to like scramble backwards and it by this stage slithered off down the path. I still got a little video of it though so, I'll upload that as part of my worst run of the week. it gave me such a fright.

Anna:

Like

Phoebe:

I, wouldn't say I'm particularly scared of snakes but, I think because I was so close to stepping on it and there was no one around, it gave me the biggest fright. And so every stick, every like moving shadow from a branch, I was like so jumpy the rest of the

Anna:

the run.

Phoebe:

also so slippery little things. Yeah. I don't know, they freaked me out. Yeah, I was standing watching where it was going. Because it like slithered down the embankments towards the river and then there were these girls rowing in the river and I heard some of them say, Oh my god, there's a snake in the water. So I don't know if it's the same snake or not, but it was just terrifying. Imagine rowing and seeing a snake slithering through

Anna:

the water. I don't like snakes, but I reckon one of my worst, ideas is seeing them when you're swimming. Because you're so slow in the

Phoebe:

water. I

Anna:

like you're just

Phoebe:

you're just not in the water. Yeah. So I've

Anna:

seen them up at Noosa before. Yeah, in the, like, river.

Phoebe:

Yeah, they were actually at

Anna:

Yeah,

Phoebe:

Anyway, this is probably not nice listening.

Anna:

Yeah, we've

Phoebe:

tell me about your best running

Anna:

Well, were messaging on Monday afternoon and you told me you were going for a run and I said, Oh, I wouldn't go in for a walk along the beach cause it was such a hot day. anyway, so I did that and then I thought, I actually feel like I quite like to sweat. because I only run not that very long or far or hard recently. I just never like. Get a sweat up anyway. So I ended up going for a half hour run

Phoebe:

you? Yeah. Cheeky girl. I was

Anna:

so hot

Phoebe:

much. Yeah, it was. And

Anna:

I was on the beach, so it's quite exposed. There's not really any shade and I was sweating so much and then went back to have a shower at my mom and dad's place and just thought, Oh, you know what? I might just. Anyway, then I jumped in the pool. But then we, or you, and our Spanish correspondent, had this thing where you can't get in the water, like you can't go in the water once. It has to be three times. So then I just got out of the pool and jumped back in. Got out of the pool and jumped back in to make it three

Phoebe:

Officially a

Anna:

Yeah, officially a swim. But it was so nice. One, it was just nice to sweat. To the, oh, the feeling of jumping, because the pool's not heated, so it's pretty cold.

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

The feeling of like, jumping in cold water when you're super

Phoebe:

There's just

Anna:

lovely. Oh, it's so nice. Yeah. Anyway, and then went out for a lovely dinner with some friends. It was just, it was, it was a treat.

Phoebe:

is nice. It's funny to think that like, at both these runs, my worst run, your best run, same kind of thing, half hour jogs at the same time. in the heat, but I feel like your mindset was just so much

Anna:

different! Yeah, yeah. I was like, this is the best time ever! Yes!

Phoebe:

yes, like I just sweat. So it's good. It's good perspective. Yeah, it was amazing.

Anna:

what is your best?

Phoebe:

Oh yeah, so mine was my long run on Sunday, which was in Manly, with my brother, his partner Elle, our friend Leash, and of course Sean. And yeah, we did this loop around, Manly, Headlands, which is just stunning. It is so on, you kind of can't believe as you're running. You have to sort of shake yourself to it. You're just looking over these most expansive, views or shrubbery or like ocean, and then there are these crazy, it was sunny on one side and kind of stormy on the other. Like really, really beautiful, unbelievably hot. I am so unacclimatized to

Anna:

unparalysed about it,

Phoebe:

humidity. I found it and the sun was beating down. then afterwards, I mean, you already said it, but jumping in the ocean, it is crazy.

Anna:

actually think that's one of the best feelings in the world.

Phoebe:

world. It's just, yeah, it consolidates a run

Anna:

Yes, Yeah.

Phoebe:

All the fatigue kind of washes away. We finished the run and we're all a bit. Pretty grumpy and overtired. Yeah. Yeah. Like it had been a, like I made it sound really nice. It was so beautiful, but it was also really hard. It was hilly, it was hot. We're all just sweaty and so thirsty, and then you just jump in the water and everyone's like,

Anna:

ah, yeah,

Phoebe:

collective exhaling so yeah, I absolutely love that run.

Anna:

Oh, so nice. Yes. How special to But I do it as well with your

Phoebe:

I know, it was really nice. It was a lovely

Anna:

So good. Alright, should we get into the main topic?

Phoebe:

Let's do it. This is a huge one. Cause a few months ago, last year, we did an episode on how to not get injured. And this is when we first brought up the concept of respecting the niggle, which we have referenced many times since, but we only really spoke about it for about two minutes. And since then we've been meaning to do a proper deep dive on what does this mean? How does one respect the niggle? Um, and now one of us has a niggle.

Anna:

We should have known. We should have spoken about it so then to prevent

Phoebe:

you. Yes, we should have. But, I mean, we've actually done pretty well. I feel like neither of us have been. niggle, niggly or injured in a while probably because we haven't been running to be fair. Yeah, we thought because I pulled up. Yeah,

Anna:

Yeah, exactly. So, we'll be speaking about the art of respecting the niggle. definitely not the science y side. So, obviously, definitely go and seek professional advice and support from your physio, or doctor, or podiatrist, or wherever. but sometimes, obviously, you can't, you might not be able to get in, or it's expensive, or you're not sure if it's, whatever it is.

Phoebe:

almost like bad enough to go

Anna:

be done. You literally be at the

Phoebe:

see somebody.

Anna:

There's like that grey period.

Phoebe:

yeah, yes,

Anna:

I? Shouldn't

Phoebe:

totally. And I feel like the more experience you have running, the more, you kind of learn these general rules of thumb for when to take something more seriously or how to manage something. we want to talk you through some of the rules of thumb that we now think about some of these might not be right. They're just literally based on our experience. And we also wanted to give you some tools in your toolkit for managing these things. Because again, there are things that you just sort of learn over the journey or pick up of these are all the different things you could try and do to help you support that recovery and

Anna:

support how to and manage an eagle.

Phoebe:

the worst thing about running is getting injured, pretty much. And there are a lot of factors that impact injuries, but one of the most direct things you can do is be really in tune with how to manage your niggles because it is just part of the experience is that you get niggles and how well you can respond and react to them rather than like for years and years, what I would do would just be like turn a blind eye and blindly run through it. Yes. And

Anna:

It's like quite multifaceted and you get some people who are really, really good at it. And in turn, when you think about it, they don't really ever get these big injuries. Like our Spanish correspondent

Phoebe:

She's, she's the pro. She,

Anna:

by the time this comes out, would have just done the Barcelona marathon, but she's so good. I mean, she's a physio, so maybe, maybe that helps a little bit, but I feel as if she's niggle, like she'll act on it and. Be doing little exercises that she thinks might help at home or just doing the little bits to make it sort of not get worse or is very good at just like resting for a day or two. Yeah. And she never touch

Phoebe:

She never gets injured. She never gets injured. Yeah, she is the perfect example to hold up here. What is an eagle, Anna?

Anna:

thing? What is the niggle, Hannah?

Phoebe:

I actually think this is,

Anna:

bang on. So, cause a slight but persistent annoyance, discomfort or anxiety. For example, Doreen want to discuss matters that niggled at her mind.

Phoebe:

yeah, I do think that's a good way to say it because it's often head noise as much as anything else. so we'll talk about that. But generally, a general rule of thumb is a niggle might be something that, It's not, it's not actually super painful that it's impacting your running, per se. And

Anna:

In terms of ability to run, and

Phoebe:

oh yes,

Anna:

and also your running technique. I feel like it's beyond a niggle when, if you're running a bit oddly,

Phoebe:

yeah, and, but it is something that's maybe been around for more than one run, like it's two or three runs in a row. You're noticing the same little, little niggle, little thing just being like, Hey, not quite right here. Something's a little bit off, which yeah, I feel like most runners will have experienced a lot of

Anna:

experienced a lot of times.

Phoebe:

Yeah, true. It definitely can be.

Anna:

then you kind of want to like react to that, to then hopefully make it go away

Phoebe:

Yeah. One run if it's consistent across the run or before and

Anna:

Yeah, yeah, obviously they're all different types of injuries. and that sort of just transitions down to they're all types of niggles. So, I think first you want to try to work out. You

Phoebe:

to do a bit of self

Anna:

a bit of

Phoebe:

art

Anna:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, whether or not it's like a tendon of a bone or something muscular or a little bit nervy, a general rule of thumb if you have something sore that might be a tendon is typically it warms up a little as the run goes on. So it might feel quite stiff and sore at the start, but it should sort of warm up over the duration around your run. it's also typically around joints in a sense. So around your ankle joint, might be your Achilles or something.

Phoebe:

might be able to feel that it's a bit tender on there as well. Yeah. I find the warming up is a really good initial indicator of what kind of nickel are we dealing with.

Anna:

I feel like it just rules most of the out'cause nothing really warms up apart from

Phoebe:

Yeah, exactly. Especially in sessions. That's the best way to tell for me. Sessions will feel so much worse if it was a muscle thing

Anna:

Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

Phoebe:

and bone. Well, I actually haven't experienced any bone issues, so I can't exactly speak to it, but as I understand it would feel even worse in sessions, likely.

Anna:

Yeah, I think bones as well. You get a lot of night pain. So when you're resting, quite often, and I mean, I've only ever had one, bony thing, which was in Europe last year with my foot and I think I said on the podcast, it felt like my foot was just couldn't carry my. Body weight kind of thing. Yeah. Like it just like it couldn't hold it it was fine walking, but as soon as I sort of hopped onto it and all of my weight was just going on the one

Phoebe:

foot. Yeah.

Anna:

felt mushy.

Phoebe:

So let's try and break this down. So one rule of thumb is that if it warms up,

Anna:

likely to be

Phoebe:

some sort of tendon thing. Bone, might be that it you get some night pain. Yeah, yeah.

Anna:

doesn't warm up. Muscles, well, they don't warm up. Muscle strains a lot of

Phoebe:

You had a strain last year, didn't you? Yeah. Oh, the

Anna:

no, year before. Yeah, end of 2023. Jesus. it warmed up a little bit. during a session. And to the point that I didn't, I sort of thought it was fine, and then I stopped and then tried to start running again, and I like, barely could run, I was like, oh my gosh. I

Phoebe:

I do feel like actually a lot of things, to be fair, warm up a little bit. Cause when you start running, you get like cortisol and you get natural, almost pain suppressants and so on. So it's probably not a perfect,

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

but then there's also nerve. I've had a few nerve issues before and I mean. I don't know, it just tends to feel a bit nervy, like shooting sharp, some tingling and numbness. My other thing that I experience when I've had nerve things is the muscles around it feel really weak, like they're just not quite switching on. And so yeah, those things might indicate that maybe there's a little nerve issue.

Anna:

And I feel like sometimes it's referred as well. you might be getting the pain in the back of your knee, but it's kind of coming from your lower back or something. Yeah. the complicating thing is that all of these things impact each other. So it's hard to navigate.

Phoebe:

and identify

Anna:

decide which one is which, but I think just generally speaking, it's good to know the differences between the different kinds of injuries, because it can kind of direct you to a certain path, I guess. Yeah. And also be like an alarm bell of how serious it might be. Like, I think if you're getting, hands down, if you're getting night pain, then you should.

Phoebe:

just stop.

Anna:

A hundred percent,

Phoebe:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stop and go

Anna:

think, yeah, exactly. what else can you do to try to decipher what kind of injury it is?

Phoebe:

Okay, these are some absolutely classic rules of thumb that I think a lot of runners use. The first one is the hop test. This is actually, I remember being told about this for the first time only a few years ago and it has served me very well since. It's the rule of thumb is, if you can't hop on it, you shouldn't run on

Anna:

it.

Phoebe:

Basically. Like if you hop and you get

Anna:

is the

Phoebe:

It's literally hopping again and again. And so. Yeah. I, I remember when I first was doing this hop test, I had shin splints. And, which is just the most, most annoying injury. And I would do so much warming up for my hop test

Anna:

I need

Phoebe:

to give myself

Anna:

my hop jest

Phoebe:

Yeah, I would be doing every activation, massage, rolling, whatever it took, just so that in the hope that when I would do my hop test it would feel okay. but I do think that's it. You got to be really honest with yourself when you do your hop test. If you hop and it hurts, run.

Anna:

Yeah. I've not really done many hop tests. Do you do it barefoot or with shoes on? Or it doesn't matter?

Phoebe:

I do both. I don't know. Maybe it matters, but I guess

Anna:

you would probably With shoes

Phoebe:

it's probably okay, because you're going to run with shoes. But I feel like barefoot is the most honest

Anna:

Yeah. I was going to say I feel like shoes might protect.

Phoebe:

I think so.

Anna:

okay, so I think lastly, if you're in pain running and adjusting the way you run in terms of like your gait or your like favoring one side because the other side's a bit sore, then just stop.

Phoebe:

Just stop. Like

Anna:

It's that's become more than a niggle.

Phoebe:

A hundred percent. And sometimes the tricky thing is sometimes it's subconscious that you are adjusting the way you're running. But if it's persistently on your mind, while you're running, then you're probably not enjoying the run. No,

Anna:

Yeah, exactly.

Phoebe:

Yeah, like it's one thing if it's like a low level pain and kind of warms up and goes away and you can work your way through it, but if you're just uncomfortable while you're running, you shouldn't, you shouldn't be. As

Anna:

As the Oxford Dictionary and Doreen say it's just persistent annoyance. They never mention pain.

Phoebe:

I never mentioned pain. I wonder, because I know people like to listen to this podcast while they're running. I wonder if there's anyone listening

Anna:

attention. Oh god,

Phoebe:

I should stop. I don't know

Anna:

How do they know what I'm doing?

Phoebe:

Um, all

Anna:

alright, so, let's Let's get into some tools to pop in your toolkit, assuming that it is just a niggle and not a major or proper injury. And so first of all,

Phoebe:

overreact to your niggle. I mean, we talk about respecting and I think that's a great word for it. But, if you do notice, then spend some time, just first of all, analyzing a little bit, doing a little bit of reflection, what triggered it, what's making it better or worse. Cause that information is all really helpful for you to decide how you're going to

Anna:

to

Phoebe:

of try and manage it. Yeah.

Anna:

Um, make a plan and stick to it. So if you are troubled by it and you're thinking, okay, I need to rest. I'll have a rest for three days. Actually follow through with that. Don't get to like one and a half days and be like, maybe I'll just try and go for another run. I think actually give your body time and space to rest. and then also with the overreaction, make sure you're like deliberately choosing a pair of shoes that you think is going to be supportive for whatever is annoying you.

Phoebe:

Yeah, it's almost part of making a plan or thinking about when it's better or worse are there some pairs of shoes that You know, make it worse, or it feels worse afterwards. Like, do that kind of reflecting. You're probably just gonna want to go for your safest pair of shoes for a while. Especially if you've been, like, introducing different pairs of shoes, or, trying different things. Just go to your safe shoes. And also, a little hot tip in here. Think about your shoes when you're not running as well. Like, that's a big one that I remember you talking about last year.

Anna:

yeah, yeah, when I was traveling around, when, yeah, because I wasn't really running when my foot started hurting. Obviously it had, been building up before that, but yeah, I was just walking around in the, least supportive runners, but probably doing so many kilometers because we're just, being tourists

Phoebe:

and

Anna:

wandering around all day. So, like, that's even in like a workplace like if you generally speaking wear heels or something just try to just for a couple of days they don't have to be full runners but like we're supportive they can

Phoebe:

I've been, I've been wearing just rocking the full

Anna:

have you yeah but they like i don't know i feel like some workplaces might not be as favourable, but try to wear some sneakers or some sort of loafers or even go to, shout out to this place called Baird Footwear. I think it's just in Australia. Oh, I don't even know if it's Australia wide or just Melbourne.

Phoebe:

I've heard of it. Yeah. So

Anna:

they're casual shoes, but I think made by podiatrists, like they're all really supportive. So they have like heels and boots so many different work shoes. but they're all designed number one for your foot And then looking good, rather than, looking good first and not caring about that. So, the only pair of flats, if I'm not wearing sneakers at work, that I wear are from there. Cause they're just that little bit more supportive.

Phoebe:

Okay, so the next, tool to have in your toolkit is obviously to consider your load. That's almost one of the first considerations I'd be making when I'd be thinking about how to respond to it. Remember that load, when we think about running, covers everything from intensity to distance to the surface that you're running on. So be thinking about okay, your body's got to have a little bit of space to respond to this. Do you want to drop down the time you're spending running? Do you want to drop off sessions for a little bit? you want to not do heels? think about what is triggering that niggle. What makes it worse?

Anna:

Yeah, like maybe just run on a, even though it's boring, a flat path kind of thing rather than, I've had a few niggles where like trails and stuff are bad for them. So I've just kind of had to, or even with my hammy, like, I don't know. I just sort of had to run on

Phoebe:

Flat path. Classic. if it's shin splints, find a soft surface, don't run on concrete. Like, really, and again, this is why it's useful to do, have done a little bit of. you know, self diagnosis of what you think the problem is so you can try and sort of manage it a little bit in terms of what surface that you're running on is or yeah.

Anna:

I think also be very conscious about spreading out the runs. So, making sure that you might have a day in between or If you still want to run two days in a row and then have a rest day, maybe run in the morning one day and then run the afternoon the other day just so you get

Phoebe:

a little bit of extra time. I, I think that's such a good one. Just like do some afternoon running, like spread it out across the day so that you have a little bit more time between runs. but yeah, as a rule of thumb with your load, you want to be thinking about how you can strategically decrease in a way that you can. Yeah, obviously your goal is to not have to fully stop running

Anna:

goal to like, not have to fully stop running next time. Don't necessarily cross train more straight away just because you can't run. shout out to me.

Phoebe:

Shout out to Anna.

Anna:

You lost. But just because you can't run, which obviously cross training is really great, but sometimes your body actually just needs to rest as well. so respect that.

Phoebe:

Especially if your goal is to just get on top of it, go

Anna:

of it, go hard.

Phoebe:

sleep will be so much more important to you than your cross

Anna:

cross training.

Phoebe:

actually just get a really good night's sleep. and try and like think about how you can incorporate a bit more resting into your days. Give your, your body every single chance to direct its energy towards. Healing.

Anna:

yeah. also try and manage the soreness, so whether or not that's popping an ice pack on it, or a heat pack maybe, or a massage, even like rolling it out, or anti inflammation.

Phoebe:

Yeah. I

Anna:

telling you the other day to, I don't know if anyone, I, I feel like there's a proper word for this. but you put like hirudoid cream, which you get from the chemist. It's actually made for hemorrhoids and Voltaren cream and kind of make it a little mixture and put it on whatever sore, then wrap it in glad wrap and sleep in it.

Phoebe:

It's literally, what's the word, like an, um, um, uh, I am, I'm I'm I'm a, a, a, a, an acting teacher. I am a, a, a, a, a, t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t

Anna:

It works!

Phoebe:

t t

Anna:

I know, it genuinely works, I reckon.

Phoebe:

but yeah, to come back to

Anna:

feel like if she's doing it

Phoebe:

yeah, Oh, totally. I'm not saying no, to come back to managing the the soreness or the inflammation back, especially if it is a tendon that can be a massive consideration is how do you actively Reduce the inflammation and so that's where anti inflammation again, which you would not want to be deploying just willy nilly But here and there if you need to Anti inflammation also massage. I went and got a massage from our friend Roz last night Or should I say our friend?

Anna:

Our massage therapist,

Phoebe:

massage therapist. Our friend.

Anna:

we pay her to hang out with us.

Phoebe:

We pay her to give us a massage. She

Anna:

no, she's our friend. we love her.

Phoebe:

she is the most, just gives the most insanely painful, but really effective massages. And last night she just, she went to town on me. It is still so tender, but it was a really good reminder of it won't just like make me feel better, it'll actually actively help with the recovery because it really, it was so tight when she was first going through it and then, way better by the end. So massages can be a good tool. Yeah. I also had, as a tip here, when I was thinking about, the glad wrap thing, you had another weird potion that you brewed at one stage.

Anna:

Oh my collagen Jelly.

Phoebe:

Your collagen

Anna:

Yeah. For any tendon things. I dunno if I recommend doing this at home. This was desperate girl di I didn't actually mind the taste of them'cause.

Phoebe:

uh,

Anna:

I mean, they're, they're not great. So you mix, so collagen is essential for repairing tendons. So before you go and do your gym work, like half an hour before you want to have some collagen I think it's for the repair because obviously like the isometric holds and the exercises you do at the gym. for tendons, you're not necessarily building the muscle, but it's about popping, like healing it in a sense. so my physio told me to mix. gelatin, so literally you get it for like baking and stuff in the little, tubs. Gelatin with water to like make it a jelly, but then it, absorbs a lot better if you have it with vitamin C. So then I was also crushing up vitamin C tablets and mixing it all

Phoebe:

Wait, so is this because gelatin has collagen in it?

Anna:

It is collagen.

Phoebe:

oh they're just the same thing?

Anna:

Yeah, yeah, That is how you get, gelatin is, for animal products specifically, it's way higher in the collagen that you want to actually

Phoebe:

great, everyone's out there buying collagen powder. Just have some jelly.

Anna:

Yeah, a lot cheaper. Um, but also it doesn't taste quite as

Phoebe:

nice. So it's

Anna:

But I think it's a, yeah, like it's generally speaking, like that is the purest form of collagen. Yeah.

Phoebe:

So Gelatin, vitamin C, tablet.

Anna:

Yeah, water. I mean, yeah, you could probably put something in there to make it a little bit more flavoursome. But, then you, oh yeah, the texture is wild.

Phoebe:

That is foul.

Anna:

but,

Phoebe:

do what you gotta do. Respect the niggle. Respect the

Anna:

bloody niggle.

Phoebe:

okay, some other things. Isometric holds. People say this is anesthetic for tendinopathies.

Anna:

hundred percent. Yeah.

Phoebe:

So isometric

Anna:

isometric holds are exercises where your muscle contracts without actually moving the joint. So you're holding a static position to build, strength and endurance in that muscle. So, for instance, Planks or wall sits and glute bridge holds glute bridge holds are a massive one because I feel like generally speaking runners, you know, you're like

Phoebe:

kind of getting

Anna:

injured, a lot of the time people, when they do go to the physio, it's cause their glutes aren't firing, but it's a good way to activate your glutes in a sense. so also for if your hamstrings sore, not to relate it all

Phoebe:

For example.

Anna:

but if you're lying down on the ground and then you lift your foot up on a couch or chair or whatever, or a bench or something, and then you hold it in a straight line. it works so well. It's actually bananas.

Phoebe:

And it's

Anna:

And it's immediate as well.

Phoebe:

When would you, would you do that? Like before you ran or? Um,

Anna:

Just every day. As many times as you can throughout the day.

Phoebe:

Is that true though? As many times because when I, I asked Noah, can I just do this as much as I want? Yeah. And she is like, haha, that's what Anna asked. But she's like,

Anna:

Probably not as many times.

Phoebe:

said The best evidence is twice a

Anna:

Yeah. Yeah. But be consistent with it. don't do it for a couple of days and then stop it. Cause as soon as you stop

Phoebe:

stop it, you can't go to sleep. As many times a day. go as hard as you possibly

Anna:

lie on your back the whole day. Just one big isometric

Phoebe:

and you can sleep. The good thing about isometric holds as I understand it is as opposed to going and doing strength work they actually don't put you under as much stress. So they're not going to aggravate it. They're just going to be really good kind of healing. Yeah. I suppose. Yeah, that does lead into though in general. When you have a niggle, think really carefully about, your prehab and your rehab, before runs, how are you setting yourself up for success, and after the runs as well, how do you make sure you're, like, cooling down or um, whether it's like stretching or rolling and getting some blood flow into it, whatever it is, just take those things more seriously than you would otherwise. I mean, I think we're never better at our prehab than when we're having a

Anna:

be setting on

Phoebe:

hyper fixating

Anna:

exactly. Um, also just your mindset, I guess. Try to stay positive and just keep going through it. Even though we said overreact in the sense of what you're doing to try to combat it. Don't overreact, in your head, you are going to be able to get through it. you will run again. Yeah. I think as well, a great point is that. resist the urge to overdo it in terms of

Phoebe:

relax. Yeah.

Anna:

or like prodding or even hopping or even massaging like i know it's hard you know when something's sore so you keep massaging it or you just keep touching it to see if it's still sore but don't do that because if you were to randomly just Keep prodding one specific spot on your arm, it's going to get sore. Yeah. So try not to touch it all the

Phoebe:

Yeah, yeah, I, I completely agree. I've definitely made niggles worse by over rolling them. Or like over and then just aggravating it almost. resist the urge to be hopping every five minutes at work to test. Like,

Anna:

I can so imagine you doing that.

Phoebe:

to keep doing that? I've done it this morning already. I've already hopped today. I can't, it's so hard not to. but. I also wrote down manifest here. Not that I, I'm actually not a massive, believer, or I just never really have really partaken in manifesting before. However, I do think there is real value to um, And I think the more you just believe yep, this will recover, the more you'll engage in all these positive activities to help it and actually have a manifest story from the run, the

Anna:

Yes! I was gonna say, you're gonna bring this up.

Phoebe:

One of the girls, who won the, ultraviolet prize pack, was telling us afterwards that she manifested it. And on the way there, she'd been thinking like,

Anna:

I don't think it was specifically the prize. I think it was that you're going for a run, you're meeting friends, you're gonna have a good day kind of

Phoebe:

thing. Yeah, I think, I feel like she might have manifested, because she said, like, I never, I never

Anna:

I never win things. Yeah, that's

Phoebe:

was manifesting that I would win. Yeah, well,

Anna:

She manifested the ultraviolet

Phoebe:

manifested, and so, no, but I, yeah, generally with an injury, or a niggle, I think it really helps your mindset if you just stay, you're like, cool, I'm going to manage this really well, and it's going to get better.

Anna:

Yeah. okay. So practical example, you have mentioned that you have a little bit of a nickel at the moment, how are you handling yours?

Phoebe:

the moment. How are you handling yours?

Anna:

you for asking.

Phoebe:

it really well. So yes, as I mentioned, I had been noticing that my calves had been a little bit tight, with more speed work that I've been doing on the track. I think with speed work, you end up running on your toes a lot more and it puts a lot more load through your lower leg and your feet. And I'd been noticing that my calves were tight and then I raced on Thursday and. Didn't run till Saturday morning at the cheeky run. And I was like, Whoa, my, specifically my tip post, which is a tendon, which goes from the inside of your foot up behind your ankle, kind of attaching into your shin, and I've had it. I've had issues with it before in the past, which is why I could pretty quickly be

Anna:

knew what it

Phoebe:

Whoa, that's a little bit angry, but it was kind of okay. I didn't notice it too much in the run. Then the long run, I felt it more. but it still was warming up pretty well. And anyway, I was kind of like, Oh, it's just from the race, it'll settle down. But then on Tuesday I was doing my warmup to the track and I was like, Oh, that is definitely getting, that's getting worse, did the session. Because I

Anna:

my god. We just had this whole episode of respecting the new. Felt it on the warm up, did the session.

Phoebe:

because I thought it's attendant, it's gonna feel.

Anna:

be

Phoebe:

Fine

Anna:

in the session. It was fine

Phoebe:

the session and it did, it felt fine in the session,

Anna:

in the session. But,

Phoebe:

after the cool down, so we jogged to coffee afterwards and then sit around at coffee for 15 minutes. Then I have to jog a few k's home and I was. hobbling and I was like, you idiot. But, that's when I started taking it more

Anna:

more seriously. Straight

Phoebe:

away, anti inflammatories.

Anna:

and it's

Phoebe:

Cloud wrap. No. So yeah, that's when I was like, okay, okay, okay. I haven't been taking this seriously. It's now been a few runs and it's not just an aftermath. you know, you do sometimes just get sore

Anna:

sore after a

Phoebe:

it's persisting. Let's do something about it. And so. actually messaged not, if you have a friend who's a physio, perfect. This is the exact time. Take a photo of your foot or your leg pointing to where it is. To a little line. Actually, I did one to you first, I think.

Anna:

I fully thought when you first messaged me, I was like, this sounds exactly the same sort I had. And then you showed the, like, where it was, and I was like,

Phoebe:

Yeah, literally totally different part of like, anyway, so what have I done since then? I have rested. So I've only been running every second day and just ran for 30 ish minutes, a bit longer. I've been doing my isometric holds every day. I went and got a massage, which as I said, I actually think is gonna work wonders. I think that's gonna make a massive difference. Sticking to my, safe shoes and I'm wearing them at work as well. sleeping. That's actually been a big thing. This has been my best week of sleep for a while. I think that not running in the morning, I've given myself more

Anna:

chance to

Phoebe:

in. And even just at night, I've been like, Okay, I'm going to really prioritize this because I just want to give my body the chance to recover. I've been doing the glad wrap thing. I haven't done the broth. Jelly thing.

Anna:

The, I guess that's probably, I don't think you do for like acute stuff. I think it's more when things are chronic. Cause it's when the tendon is quite damaged. So I feel like it's Good to do, but it's not a necessity. Like don't do that unless, yeah.

Phoebe:

Well, my strategy is kind of go hard and fast early. and then I'm meant to be racing next Thursday. So I'm hoping that if I manage it really well over the next few days, I mean, it already is starting to feel a lot better. So hopefully I'll be able to run pretty normally by early next week and then be fine too. Do a little 5k race.

Anna:

No. No,

Phoebe:

I'll do 40 minutes to an hour.

Anna:

now. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Phoebe:

Yes.

Anna:

Um, well, apart from the slight mishap at the start, I feel like you're managing it very well.

Phoebe:

me be your example. And yes, if you're listening. And you're carrying an eagle, be really honest with yourself. and hopefully this has helped you take that. Or, if you know someone who has mentioned that they have an eagle, send them this episode. Yeah. And hopefully this will help you manage it well.

Anna:

Yes, exactly. all right. So we are bringing a new segment to the pod called conversations with friends. And these are conversations, discussions, debates, arguments about something on that you've had on a run recently.

Phoebe:

it's kind of meant to reflect those, you know, when you're on a, it's often on a long run, but it doesn't need to be, and you just get into the most ridiculous conversations or debates and it might be something that you need settled. So, for example, today, I'm going to bring some things to Anna that I want her to settle for me. but it could just be. any ridiculous topic that's discussed on a run. So feel free to send some in if you have some, otherwise we've got a long list. So the one that I wanted to raise with you today is an argument that my brother Joe and I have all the time on runs. And I reckon you might have heard us. And that is, whether you should plan your runs based on time or distance. so, for example, in my program, it's always based on time. So it'll be a 40 minute run or an hour long run. And Joe's opinion is that that's. Um, and I think that's kind of silly and you should just do it by distance because that's what everyone kind of ends up saying anyway.

Anna:

Okay. I wanna hear your argument and then I want hear his argument.

Phoebe:

my argument is I feel like for, well, two things. First of all, for a training program, I feel like it's easier for a coach to manage someone's load by time because then it doesn't matter how fast or slow you run it. It's just about. on your feet, which is probably a better indication of overall load. And for two, it just helps not fixate on distance as the end outcome, which I find helpful.

Anna:

Okay, how come you find that helpful?

Phoebe:

It's really easy to become obsessed with, I want to run this many kilometers in a week, or so that means this run has to be this many kilometers, which is not a good way to think about your overall load in general. Whereas, And then,

Anna:

in general. Because also,

Phoebe:

Because also, sorry, to give my argument a little bit more support, because if you're feeling 12 kilometer run. and you're feeling really sore, that might take you an hour twenty and then if you're feeling really good that might take you an hour. So they're two really different runs.

Anna:

just pointing it out, not taking a side yet, but I'm just pointing out, I don't think if you're going for an easy run, your time would differ by 20

Phoebe:

you're going for an easy run, your time would differ by 20 minutes. That could be really different and so I think Joe's point is I mean I don't even know

Anna:

I

Phoebe:

I should have got him on to

Anna:

have got on to record the video. Why?

Phoebe:

what

Anna:

your expectations are, what your ranges are in terms of pace. So they should be quite specific to that. And I kind of almost think the opposite. I think some people who might end up, running the same, who might be the same pace at running in a race, they might do their like easy jogs. At a way different pace. So it means that one of them might actually end up be running 20 percent more than the other one. Distance wise.

Phoebe:

Time wise, it's the same, but I

Anna:

wise it's the same but I feel like that's a completely different amount of taxation on your

Phoebe:

body. It is. I, I completely, that's my point. I agree. It's a different amount of taxation and I think it's the more important amount of taxation to pay attention to because that's what like, let's say for my longest runs in marathon training, my coach will usually give me the amount of time that he expects me to do the marathon in.

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

Knowing that I'm obviously going to be running them way slower, so you're not the same distance, but it's like your body gets really used to that toll on like, of exercising for that long, or like the load for that long. And I think same with easy runs, 40 minutes, I mean, it's going to be much, much, as you say, it's probably not going to be like 20 minutes difference necessarily, oh, I think the other benefit to it is it means you don't need to actually have. a smartwatch or anything. You can just be like, okay, I want to run for, and, and, and again, like when I'm looking at like the screen of my watch, I can just be like, okay, it's starting to run at 6 30. So I just want to finish it around this time. Not that I do that very often, but I definitely should, as opposed to really needing to plan out a route and have a watch that tells you exactly how far you've gone. Yeah,

Anna:

no, no, I definitely agree with that. I feel like it's a lot more inclusive. But

Phoebe:

yeah, that was a point. I should,

Anna:

yeah, no, that is a great point. I think it's generally speaking, a lot more inclusive. But I think for someone like yourself, who's running. A lot, just say, I don't know. I feel like it's a more specific program if you have distances, cause your coach should identify, like you run it a jog anywhere between five minutes and five 20 pace or something. So that's what I'll get you to do. But then for someone else, who like should be on the same load, but it's like a lot faster or a lot slower than they might change that because they're like, well. Oh, wait, no, that would be an argument for your point of view. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what I think. I've always seen, I've always done it in distance. And I way prefer that. I think I would really struggle with time.

Phoebe:

would you struggle with it?

Anna:

because I like, I knowing the distance. Cause like it's, it's the metric that we use. You don't ask how many minutes you ran this week. You ask how many kilometers.

Phoebe:

Well, you shouldn't ask how many, like that's, well, that's, this is Jo's point, but just because you do doesn't mean that you should. Cause I also, when I first moved, had Gary coaching me and got it in minutes, I was like, this is so weird. And now I love it because I really, it helps me not fixate on distance and just makes me think about easier on for 40 minutes, easier on

Anna:

minutes. Yeah, I mean, it's good if you're like, want to fixate on distance or whatever, but I just think in general, it's, never like, As a whole, even when you look back at training or something, and you're sort of saying Oh, what did I do before that run? Or how far was I running? Like, you never speak of it in minutes.

Phoebe:

Well, I kind of, like, I think of like an hour run, an hour 15 run, a 40 minute run. Like, because they're

Anna:

like, collectively over a week. You're never like, I ran for

Phoebe:

but that's because of how Strava shows the I really wish, um Yeah, that's what I mean, that's because how Strava shows the

Anna:

I was

Phoebe:

that I get that, I feel like, I don't know, I kind of almost just think it's like a bit,

Anna:

I know that at the start I was like, I feel like my side has changed over the course of this conversation. I feel like I'm kind of impartial. I feel like it doesn't really matter as long as you're being realistic about the time or the distance that you're running in relation to your goals, your paces.

Phoebe:

paces. Let's do a poll. I think we've got to put it down to the poll. What do you, what do you think is better? Time or distance? I mean, I feel like distance is way, way, way, way more common.

Anna:

Yeah, because it's just an easier metric to

Phoebe:

easier metric to use. Well, again, depends on what tools you have. and that sort of thing. Assuming you have a Garmin, then it's easier. Or like a smart watch.

Anna:

smartwatches. Yeah, I just mean holistically. as in overall. Yeah. like most runners. Like, I would actually be interested to know. I don't think many, yeah, I, I don't know. Because even if people don't have Garmins, I feel like they're still doing it, on an app on their phone. Maybe, Like not many people are just using a stopwatch. I definitely

Phoebe:

think that it's more unusual to go by time, but I prefer it. But let's put it, let's put a poll. Yes. I

Anna:

I think that's it.

Phoebe:

I actually had another one but maybe we'll leave it for next week because that ended up being

Anna:

I also would just like to say I would to hear you and Jo argue about this on a run. I've never have.

Phoebe:

reckon everyone he brings it up. Some other variation of

Anna:

I know, I feel like siblings can just get you, like no one else can. And I feel like you both would be like quite good

Phoebe:

Well, I feel like he's only doing it to annoy me. I don't think he

Anna:

Yeah. Purely just riling you up. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that sounds like Dave No.

Phoebe:

let us know, what you think about it and any points that we've missed in this

Anna:

Yeah, I am sure we have. I think that's, it

Phoebe:

I think it might be. Um, I

Anna:

I hope you have a blessed week.

Phoebe:

thank you Anna, right back at you.

Anna:

And to the listeners. And

Phoebe:

to the listeners. Have a blessed week. Thank you so much for listening. I hope that you got something out of this and it helps you better manage your niggles.

Anna:

We'll see you next week.

Phoebe:

We'll see you next week.

Anna:

Bye! Bye! Keep like poking my glutes because I'm like god I could do it with a massager

Phoebe:

heart attack. Yeah, that'd be pretty nice. Might book in with our friend Ross. Yeah, that'd be good.