Cheeky Run Club

Is Runna worth the hype?

• Phoebe Pincus & Anna Coldham • Season 6 • Episode 1

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WE'RE BAAAAACK with season 6 babyyyyy!!!! 

In this ep we unpack the rise and rise of the AI training program app 'Runna', including comparing the program it gave us to a program written by a coach, and boy oh boy is there a lot to talk about. We look at the pros and cons of what an AI training program can provide for different levels of runners and share a lot of the communities' thoughts too.

At the end of the episode we also unpack how Phoebe has found the last 2 months of taking creatine and some very cool results on that front.

LINKS:

Thank you so much to Pillar Performance for making this episode possible 🩷

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, Tiktok, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

Music produced by Hugh Raper. Logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

Phoebe:

Cheeky Run Club recognizes that every day we live, work, and run on Aboriginal land.

Anna:

This episode of Cheeky Run Club is brought to you by Pillar Performance and their brand new creatine supplement.

Phoebe:

Welcome to Cheeky Run Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello

Anna:

Hello Phoebe

Phoebe:

and hello listeners. Today

Anna:

are going to try and answer the question of is runner worth the hype? We have had a good look at the app and done some super sleuthing and also had hundreds and hundreds of messages off the back of our Instagram stories with very strong opinions both ways. So we are super excited to unpack both sides of the debate.

Phoebe:

But first, as always, let's kick it off with our notable runs of the last few weeks because we are

Anna:

We're back

Phoebe:

We've had a really long, cheeky holiday.

Anna:

only has Cheeky been on holidays. our friendship has been on holidays. We haven't seen each other for three weeks.

Phoebe:

still consider you my friend, even when you're in another country.

Anna:

It's so weird. It's actually crazy. Phoebe and I literally see each other every day, or if not every day, every couple of days. And

Phoebe:

long has it been

Anna:

it's been since

Phoebe:

pre Easter.

Anna:

after Dark,

Phoebe:

Since

Anna:

three weeks ago.

Phoebe:

Wow. How are you? I'm

Anna:

good. How are

Phoebe:

good. I'm good. I'm the picture of health right now,

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

can tell. In my voice.

Anna:

Croaky voice and

Phoebe:

I know something don't

Anna:

change.

Phoebe:

Every time I go away for work, I come back with no voice.

Anna:

I am sure that I might hear about it in one of your notable run or running related activities, but very keen to hear about your hike in New Zealand.

Phoebe:

I actually forgot about that. Oh.

Anna:

Oh

Phoebe:

So it wasn't gonna be my notable, but yeah. Maybe I'll update my best run.

Anna:

gimme your best. Okay, well

Phoebe:

well I wasn't, now I'm

Anna:

Oh God.

Phoebe:

a, I'll give it as a runner up. So I did a three day hike in New Zealand with, most of my family. Unfortunately, my sister and her family couldn't come, 60 kilometers. It's called the Hump Bridge Track right down the bottom of the south island. It was absolutely stunning. It's one of the great walks in New Zealand. so the facilities are amazing. Yeah. It's mostly walking on actual path, not just not super traily. Yeah. you stay in these cabins that have really nice views, and you can kind of cook food there and everything. So it's a really luxurious hike. Yeah. it was super fun. It was hard. I think I was a bit smug going into it'cause I've done some big hikes

Anna:

Yeah. And also I remember you saying that you'd done it before.

Phoebe:

done this hike

Anna:

so it was like, you've clocked it once.

Phoebe:

I clocked it once. I actually do remember finding it hard last time, but I thought this time I'm more, I'm fit. I'm fit. Yeah. And I've just done, I've done way more hardcore hikes And so I was like, don't worry guys. I was

Anna:

Yeah. I've got this. Don't guys, I've nearly died on a hike

Phoebe:

Yeah. Yeah, literally. but I actually found it really hard. especially day one, you're hiking up. Mm-hmm. And in my head, that was the hardest day, but that was completely fine. Day two is down. Yeah. And that was so hard. Oh, really? Like just downstairs for, I don't know.

Anna:

yeah, that your quads. That would be really

Phoebe:

And calves. My calves. So then by day three, my calves had no power in them. it was crazy. They were so tired. and then I had to have like a few days off running. Afterwards as well.'cause I was like, oh, they're just like, my legs are are literally

Anna:

three days. That's So we, yeah, we walking pretty much all day

Phoebe:

No. It's maybe like five or six hours of walking. Yeah. So it's pretty good. Like You stop and eat, you stop whenever there's a beautiful view and then we'd kind of get in at three or whatever, three or four. Play some cards. Yeah,

Anna:

I did see that from the reel

Phoebe:

From the reel. Yes. so that was my, I'm gonna call that my notable, my runner up. Notable. Yeah. And then I was gonna give a really, generic but good update around. I think my iron is super high. You're feeling good?

Anna:

good?

Phoebe:

Well, I'm now almost 12 weeks post infusion. Yeah. And they did say it could take 10 to 12 weeks. I think I've been feeling better and better since I got the iron infusion, but I feel like about two weeks ago, I just felt this like. Lightness on my runs that I haven't felt in a year. Oh. And my, I have noticed my heart rate and my runs is like right back down to where it used to be. And I can't really explain it, but running is just feeling easier at the moment. And it's not,'cause I'm fitter, I'm definitely no fitter than I was. Even when

Anna:

I

Phoebe:

a hard, long run, I'm not getting anywhere near the same fatigue. Yeah. I feel completely fine. Like, I'm like, oh, this is

Anna:

You're like tired, but you're fine. Kind of.

Phoebe:

But I'm fine. Yeah. It's, it's this really noticeable. Difference. And it's really exciting.

Anna:

Oh, that's so good. I'm so happy.

Phoebe:

I, yeah. I'm just feeling so much.

Anna:

about bloody time. Yeah.

Phoebe:

Yeah. So I actually need to go, I'm having like a checkup on to get where my eye levels actually are this week. And so then I'll be able to like fully report where my ferritin is, which would be exciting. But I am feeling like it's making a massive difference and yes. That's exciting. Very exciting. What about you? What was your best run or running related activity?

Anna:

lucky enough, I went to New York for Easter and Anzac Day. I, took three days, annual leave and got 10 days off, or

Phoebe:

So good.

Anna:

off or something. my husband Dave and I went to visit our old housemate, Georgie.

Phoebe:

Yay.

Anna:

Um, she moved over there almost two years ago now, which is crazy'cause it means I haven't lived with her for nearly two years.

Phoebe:

Yeah, it does mean.

Anna:

but it was so, the whole trip, it was really, really cool. It was so exciting. Like seeing her new life. Yeah. It's, it was, so, there's something really strange about going from living with someone so literal we

Phoebe:

did

Anna:

so much together as well.

Phoebe:

And especially even through Covid

Anna:

everything. Yeah, yeah. From that to her moving overseas

Phoebe:

Yeah. Not

Anna:

obviously like we chat and

Phoebe:

everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Actually you're in each other's pockets. No. And then it's cool to see, like

Anna:

every day kind of thing. Yeah.

Phoebe:

And then you get to see what her life looks

Anna:

Yeah. She's not that anyone needs to know this, but Yeah. She's

Phoebe:

just, they should, people should know about Georgie.

Anna:

if you Yeah, actually I, she is one of the best people. To know

Phoebe:

Yeah. Just to know.

Anna:

Like everyone loves her. just sorry. back to the point. My best running related. I've kind of got two both. Were

Phoebe:

you. Okay. I'll allow it.'cause I did just give two. Yeah.

Anna:

Yeah. So one was just going for a run with her. It was just so nice. we haven't done it in ages and It was one of the first one runs I went on and. going along the Hudson River. It was just so cool. we were looking over to New Jersey it was so sick. And then the second one is Dave and I went for a run around Central Park. Oh yeah. And I'm like big sex in the city fan and just everything in New York. They kept baggy meek because everything I saw, I would just say, oh, that's so cool

Phoebe:

So you could recognize it from sex

Anna:

Well, I could recognize certain things. But also it's just like the street scapes and everything is just obviously'cause it's film there, it's just the same obviously. But I don't know, there's something like really nostalgic about

Phoebe:

Wow.

Anna:

all of it in real life. I just loved it. And Central Park is so beautiful. Yeah, it is such a beautiful park. There are so many runners there. So run that we did was on the Wednesday and Boston Marathon had just been on. Oh. And there were already people that decked out in their

Phoebe:

Boston

Anna:

Like,'cause they, they'd obviously like come home and they're like going around the track. Yeah. It was really, it was really cool Highly recommend going to the big Apple.

Phoebe:

That's a hot tip. Go to the big

Anna:

I normally hate cities and I loved

Phoebe:

it. Running wreck of the week.

Anna:

work of the week, go to Big Apple. Go to the big Apple. It will only cost you your arm and a

Phoebe:

Yeah. True.

Anna:

what is your worst running? A running related experience?

Phoebe:

Okay. Worst run was a run this week. I, was in Sydney this week for work, and we had a really big week. We had a lot of events we were running, which is all really exciting. It all went really well. But it does mean a lot of hard work and late nights. And historically when I've gone to Sydney for these weeks, I've still done my full on training program. Yeah. I've gone to Run Crew, which is the group that I run with, and I join in with them And I actually didn't this week. This week, I was like, I'm just going to do what I feel like each morning. Um, thank you. And I also just, oh, this is almost gonna be a best run. one day I did, oh, this morning, I just like went for runs with friends and stuff, which is really nice. But one morning I ran by myself was Tuesday morning and I actually had to run. Way earlier than the, normal run crew session is. So I was like, I'll just do what I feel like. And I just tried to do some eight hundreds and four hundreds and I was just running in the dark around the park and I was so tired. I think I'd only had five hours sleep safe the previous few nights. I hadn't, this is one of my challenges when I travel for work and I'm interested to here if anyone has good strategies for this, but I really struggle with my nutrition. I, I always have a good breakfast, but my lunches are like whatever. I pick up kind of when, and everyone's on the go and I often, it's like a group lunch and I'm sort of eating whatever's there. And then the dinners were always vegetarian. It's really,

Anna:

Yeah. You like minimizes

Phoebe:

The vegetarian. It's like there's really not, yeah, definitely was making it difficult. And then dinners, we were just having them really late some nights and so my, I don't know, it just like wasn't in my normal. feel, and then my snacks. I normally try and have good snacks throughout the day, and I wasn't having any of that, so I felt just quite depleted on this run. Yeah. but I did like partway through, I was just like, okay, I'll just call it and I'll just finish this session now. Yeah. jog home. Yeah. So it was fine, but I was definitely like, oh, that it's not enjoyable running when you feel that way.

Anna:

no

Phoebe:

No. Yeah. Yes. Tired,

Anna:

dark by yourself. Yeah.

Phoebe:

Yeah. I don't know. It just, and I was just wearing, I don't know, I feel like I've become such a princess of my running shoes and wearing, like super shoes in my sessions.

Anna:

Oh, and you weren't? No,

Phoebe:

a good word. No, I was just wearing normal jo joggers and doing my

Anna:

possibly

Phoebe:

and I was like, oh, they just feel so slow.

Anna:

you're like, it's not me, it's the shoes.

Phoebe:

was like, when did I become this person? I never, I never, ever, ever used to wear like different shoes, my sessions and then once you start it's just feels

Anna:

Yeah. You can't go back.

Phoebe:

I know. What was your worst run?

Anna:

mine also was this week, so we got back on Sunday after a bit of a, delay. And then I had to work on Monday and then I thought, you know what, maybe it would be good for me. I was on Monday. I was, was saying to you off mic before, physically I was at work, but mentally spiritu, I I don't, I don't think I existed. I don't know where I was. I said to Phoebe before, I was like looking at a few emails and stuff that I'd sent on Monday and they were atrocious. Anyway,

Phoebe:

like, oh no,

Anna:

sorry, I don't think my boss listens. and Oh, yes. Anyway, so I thought maybe it would be a good idea. I got through the day at work and I thought maybe it would be a good idea to try to run home. It's only about four, five Ks ish, like maybe that will kind

Phoebe:

of Oh, yeah. Feel

Anna:

little bit better because I've still wanted to try to get to

Phoebe:

the right

Anna:

time of the right time to like go to bed. Like I didn't wanna go home and just fall asleep at

Phoebe:

Yeah. Six

Anna:

six or whatever. Anyway, I started running, and maybe this is similar to how you're feeling when you're really low in iron, I'm unfit anyway, every run is running's not enjoyable for me at the moment.'cause

Phoebe:

it's oh,

Anna:

everyone's hard. I'm just really not fit. Um, sorry. It is still enjoyable.

Phoebe:

I was like, oh God,

Anna:

but

Phoebe:

got dark.

Anna:

and like, no, no. Run is easy. I, I now have this whole new appreciation of why people. struggled to get into running because it's really

Phoebe:

hot.

Anna:

at the beginning. Anyway, I digress. and then I think I got a kilometer and a half and I thought, I'm just gonna walk for a little bit. And then I tried to run again and I just thought, honestly, stuff this, so then I just waddled home and it was so

Phoebe:

so,

Anna:

hard. Even walking was so hard. And at one point I thought I saw a bench and I thought, oh, maybe I'll just have a little

Phoebe:

sip on the bench.

Anna:

And I was like, do not sit on the bench. If you sit on the bench, you'll fall asleep.

Phoebe:

my God. I would love to have seen, I feel like I get pictures in my head. You just so demoralized like I,

Anna:

I really hope no one saw me on Monday. Otherwise I'd be like, that girl looks so sad.

Phoebe:

oh, mind you, I cannot think of anything worse than running, than Jet Laed.

Anna:

Yeah, it was really, yeah, it was really, really hard. Yeah, I know. Well, on the Sunday my like method of staying awake was just to keep eating, but then I felt really sick on Monday'cause I'd eaten so much on the Sundays. I thought, let's try something else. Anyway, that was a big intro. okay. Shall we get into

Phoebe:

the magic of this week?

Anna:

of this week?

Phoebe:

Let's do it because I'm so excited to talk about this. We do. I don't think we've ever talked about something more divisive than runner.

Anna:

Yes. Seriously.

Phoebe:

So we're going to,

Anna:

I also, I'll put on record. I didn't realize it was this divisive until we did

Phoebe:

the, no,

Anna:

No,

Phoebe:

I didn't. It is a heated topic in the running world. So basically what we wanna do is unpack the rise of the AI running program App Runner. And we also then just generally want to discuss the landscape when it comes to Real life coaches versus AI training plants. as Anna mentioned at the start, we did get you guys to weigh in during the week. So we're also gonna share a lot of the community sentiment around this because turns out there are some strong opinions on either side of the program.

Anna:

It was crazy for every strong opinion. One way there was to the

Phoebe:

other. Yeah, I know.

Anna:

like, I would love to get everyone in a room.

Phoebe:

Oh my gosh. Well, we, we will essentially try and represent both sides as fairly as possible and then also give our own opinions.'cause as I said, we did, we both had a look at the app. I actually got it to make me a program. Yeah. and

Anna:

compared it with your

Phoebe:

my current program. Yeah. So that was extremely interesting and I'm keen to unpack, but really I think the reason the run has been, it's super topical in the running world right now. It's because it's recently been acquired by Strava.

Anna:

str It has.

Phoebe:

so let's give a quick rundown on what is Runner before. we talk a little bit a bit about the acquisition with Strava and then let's get into our thoughts and the community thoughts on runner and what is runner.

Anna:

So runner burst onto the scene in 2021 as an AI powered run coaching app. it quickly climbed the app charts for everyone in need of any kind of running program.

Phoebe:

It has grown really, really quickly. It's actually considerate and started in 2021. It has 150 staff working for it, and it's hiring 50 more, which gives you a really good indication of how quickly it's growing. Yeah.

Anna:

in 2024, they triple the size of its team. So 2023, it must have only been

Phoebe:

Yeah, it'll be known for its brand presence and it's like community influencer marketing it has done, and the fundamentals of the app aren't necessarily what sets it apart, but it's marketing strategies unbelievably effective. It also does have a hugely loyal user base. it seems to have a lot of people who, as per the responses, a lot of people use it and really, really it has lots of other features. It has stretching, and strength and so on that are designed to complement your running plan. It also. has a community feature on there, but I don't think many people use that. No. but in terms of the acquisition itself, I mean, in my mind it just makes a lot of sense. I've always been shocked that Strava doesn't do training plans. I think they apparently did try to do them once, but they're very poor. Yeah. So this makes complete sense to me. I also think Strava has been trying to integrate ai. I mean, everyone's probably seen the AI insights and they've been a bit of a joke.

Anna:

They don't really seem to work very

Phoebe:

well. Yeah. They also

Anna:

think, yeah, I feel like for both companies it's like, I think it's mutually beneficial. Like for runner it gets access to one of the largest online running communities Yeah. As well.

Phoebe:

And then I think Strava, obviously they get access to the training plans, but they also get the AI team that lives within runner. I think runner's AI

Anna:

obviously. Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe:

doing a better job of it. So it's almost potentially an acquisition for their tech as well as obviously runner's growing really quickly is probably profitable and yeah, it's gonna be a smart move in that sense.

Anna:

One thing I am interested to see, and they haven't really, they haven't said that they've made a decision on it before, but how it's gonna work because of both programs are subscription based, and how that will kind of like. How they'll merge that in

Phoebe:

I think it'll just end up being another tier, like the highest tier is, or an add-on. Like you could have, you know, premium version and add in.

Anna:

a runner

Phoebe:

version, like completely hypothesizing here, but I'm sure they'll integrate it. They haven't, obviously they haven't come out the gates and said they'll do it, but that is inevitably what will happen and that'll make sense.'cause I imagine 99% of the people who have runner have Strava as well. So it's just one less app. and I think there's actually good examples of how Strava's done this before. I think four years ago they bought fat maps, which was like the GPS kind of tracking and like root creation system. Yeah, yeah. And it took them years to integrate it, but now the Strava map your run feature is really good.

Anna:

It's so, yeah. You use it, don't

Phoebe:

I love, I, it's one of my favorite Strava

Anna:

Yeah. I will say, I don't know if you got into the weeds of this, but on Reddit, and I feel like there are a lot of. People with strong opinions, obviously. I guess as well, people just don't really like change and I feel like there are a lot of Strava users and also runner users that are not happy. Yeah. About the the collaboration I guess between the two,

Phoebe:

two, yeah. This Strava, did a post on Strava saying, Hey guys, be a quiet runner. Like explaining it really excited in your feed. And I looked at the comments and all the most liked comments were people being like, you're gonna ruin runner. Oh, what? Which blew my mind because I was like. It's str, like they're on Strava. They surely, like Strava pretends a lot of people use Strava but really don't like it or have a lot of gripes about it. Yeah, Which I didn't know. Like I loved Strava

Anna:

Yeah, I, yeah, see there was a bit of that, but there were a lot of grumpy Strava. So what, like solely Strava

Phoebe:

What is there to be unhappy about if you're on Strava? I think, are they worried it'll change their pricing or something?

Anna:

Yeah, I think they were worried about the price change, and that it'll just incentivize being on a runner program so much that you'll get the, some Strava perks only if you are like a subscriber of runner as well. but it does, it did seem like just in general, the main gripe was they're gonna change the subscription and increase it because I think it was either last year or 2023, Strava actually had issues with their premium subscription because they changed the price without actually notifying anyone. It was only when their subscriptions renewed that they were getting

Phoebe:

I didn't know

Anna:

So I think maybe it's just like a little bit of, throwing Yeah. What's, what do you when you throw stones on the fire?

Phoebe:

I tend to feel like there's just always angry people on the internet who just love to be annoyed about

Anna:

I honestly, you can't do anything on the internet without people being

Phoebe:

I don't think people like change as a rule. I think there's a lot of fear and just like They just don't

Anna:

no one likes any change

Phoebe:

I think it's silly to be a, People are so cynical about like, what's gonna happen? Yeah. Yeah. Like this makes complete sense. These are two apps that work together really well. Yeah. I'm sure that if you don't want it, you won't need to pay for it. Yeah. That's just don't pay for it if you don't want

Anna:

Yeah, exactly. And like, as we said before, to be honest, like Strava's lack of any modern, functional in-app training plans was such a huge

Phoebe:

omission. Yeah.

Anna:

Yeah. Until now.

Phoebe:

Now I think probably the more valid fear is, I guess if you lose your runner and love it then because then it's okay, you don't know exactly what they're going to do with it. Yeah. Like my hypothesis is that they'll obviously just integrate it and try and keep making it better. But I guess you could be worried that they wouldn't do

Anna:

Yeah. So moving on, is runner good? And some of you who aren't familiar with runner looking at you, mom and dad. For context, we actually polled our audience and asked, so Interesting. Yeah. And asked where they get their training programs from. obviously runners, just one app and one like online running service,

Phoebe:

35% of our listeners who responded used runner 26%. Don't use a coach at all. 20% use a coach either in person or online. And then 18% of listeners use other online programs that are not runner. So that is pretty crazy. is wild. Yeah. How quickly it has got such a massive proportion of the amateur running market.

Anna:

I mean, do you think part of it comes into play that they would've been developing this app for a little while and maybe they just timed it quite well? Maybe even it might have been strategic, but maybe it's even a bit of luck

Phoebe:

Oh, always. Yeah. Yeah,

Anna:

timed it, they timed it with the boom of running

Phoebe:

I and, and AI like, I think it's, it's for sure it's super fortuitous in that sense. It's also their marketing is really effective, clearly. They understand better than all these other channels that people. Take their recommendations off other influencers. Influencers in the running scene.

Anna:

we do in the running scene and in

Phoebe:

yeah. I mean, that's always been the case. That's like how humans work and they have just completely capitalized on that to the extent that it's actually turned to some people offered in the community just being like, I actually don't know if I can trust it, because I never know if someone's being paid to say something good

Anna:

to say something. To say something.

Phoebe:

So we should say we are absolutely not being paid. I mean, we're about to criticize it quite a bit as well as say the good things about it. So, but that blew my mind. How many people, like even just the 35% run up versus 18%, all other running apps, online programs, common apps, like

Anna:

chat, GPT.

Phoebe:

yeah. All of those. That is, crazy how, how much it's grown. Mm-hmm.

Anna:

we're going to talk through what the community thinks about ai. Coaching in the form of runner. Mm-hmm. but at the same time, parallel to that, you have also done your own experiment Yes. With runner. Ah. Um, and compared it to,

Phoebe:

and you've had a look at it too.

Anna:

I have also had a look at it,

Phoebe:

it. Yeah.

Anna:

and compared it with the running program that you usually get. So, we'll chat through What the community thinks, but also your own personal experience and what we think. Yeah. So I guess number one, which was a huge, reason as to why people use runner was the cost.

Phoebe:

Mm.

Anna:

so it's$120 a year,

Phoebe:

which is honestly, a lot of people would pay more than that a

Anna:

A month for a coach in person or online. so that in itself is,

Phoebe:

totally. I think for so many people they would have no interest in paying, you know,$150 a month for a running coach. No. The same reason that I don't pay that for a PT in the gym.

Anna:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Phoebe:

do think you need a certain level of commitment. Yeah. Or dedication or, and

Anna:

Or, but also I was gonna say maybe people would want to do that, but they simply just can't

Phoebe:

Yeah. A hundred

Anna:

like don't have that disposable income.

Phoebe:

Yeah. So I think for a lot of people it was as simple as that. It was like, I'm paying, a 12th of what I would be paying otherwise. Yeah. It's like Cool. That makes complete sense. Yeah.

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

Yeah. I think the second thing to say that came up a bit, and then I'll talk about this in my own experience as well, but how easy it is to

Anna:

Mm-hmm.

Phoebe:

You download the app, you answer about four or five questions, it gives you a program. Yeah. and you almost everyone has a, two week free to start with compared to the, like, psychological barrier of submitting an inquiry to a coach. Yeah. Having a conversation. Yeah. Working through,

Anna:

also, I feel like, quite a big teething period with, personal coach, whether it be in person or online in the sense that you're getting to know

Phoebe:

how Yeah.

Anna:

or more so the coach or actually both, but like more so the coach is kind of getting to know. what load is okay for you. Yeah. what other aspects of life stresses impact your running, and how to juggle all of those things together. And also just the type of person you are, I guess.

Phoebe:

Like yeah,

Anna:

whether or not you are someone who's just gonna not say anything and just keep pushing when you probably shouldn't. Or someone that maybe needs a little more encouragement because you're maybe a little bit scared or,

Phoebe:

But even then, and not to get derailed too early, I think All coaches are so different, and I think at the moment we're gonna group coaches, just the ease of having the conversation into one bucket. But we're probably talking about, I think we both had some really good coaches in our time, and I actually don't think all coaches are probably that good necessarily. Like I think there are plenty that would not go to anywhere near that effort in fact, I know there are plenty of coaches that do that, that are just like couple questions. Here's a reasonably generic training plan. there's a lot of people who run coaches these days who've created their own running programs that they share that aren't qualified

Anna:

They aren't

Phoebe:

So I think we'll probably

Anna:

like we've said before, it seems like every man and their dog are now

Phoebe:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um,

Anna:

are,

Phoebe:

oh my God, we are not coaches. to come back to the ease of use point, one of first things you notice using runner, it is a beautiful interface. It's very easy to use, it's very

Anna:

use. It's very interest. They've done it very well.

Phoebe:

done it really well. And when I compare that to the platform that I use for my, that my coach sets the program on, which is an app called Training Peaks. It's the most archaic, terrible user experience. Yeah. It's so annoying to

Anna:

it's quite convoluted and like

Phoebe:

oh yeah. It just,

Anna:

it?

Phoebe:

It's, it's really, really poor. And so my first thought is oh, I wish Gary could put my program on this app. Oh, yeah. Because it's so easy to visualize. Yeah. Like it's really

Anna:

Yeah. I actually, in saying I hadn't really thought about it like that, but I used to get my program from Go

Phoebe:

Google Sheets. Yeah. It's

Anna:

an Excel spreadsheet and Yeah. There were different colors for if it was a session or a easy run. Yeah. But that was about, that was the extent of the, of the, um, aesthetics. Yeah.

Phoebe:

Yeah. Whereas compared to even what a coach gives you, it gives you, a strength training to compliment your running. There's an ability to give it feedback or write notes after each run. Yeah. That then like, keeps informing it. That's amazing functionality that you actually can't really get from.

Anna:

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Phoebe:

Yeah. Running coaches.

Anna:

because I would say most running coaches don't give you a strength

Phoebe:

program. Definitely. Uh, I think most of'em would say, it's not my aex piece. Go see it. but yeah, in that sense it's, it's super comprehensive in terms of just a talk through, if you haven't used it before, basically you log in. one of the very first things that I did was select my goal race. Which is kind of cool'cause you can see like I can literally pick Gold Coast Marathon. Like it obviously knows where I am and it has the runs there and you can figure out, which I thought was awesome. but I actually dunno how it works if you don't have a goal race. Mm-hmm. It seems to be completely designed around. I'm sure you can just, there's a maintenance version of it, but I couldn't see it. Then basically you enter your 5K pb, which I did, and then you select your level. So there are four levels and the fourth one, which is elite, means that you have experience doing interval sessions. So that's the one I

Anna:

still a pretty like low base. Well, well I feel like the, those levels,

Phoebe:

a lot within that because like, yeah, I've done interval sessions for years, but there's a lot of people who've done interval sessions who are a lot more

Anna:

Well, yeah.

Phoebe:

am. So that's kind of interesting. But I guess that's probably what's most useful for them in terms of what program they can then give you. Do they need to introduce you to this? Yeah. And then I asked how intense I wanted the training program to be, which I just set up normal'cause I was like interested to see what it would give me. you tell it what days you wanna run on, like how many days a week and stuff. so it's really easy. It took me like two minutes and then it's boom, I'm gonna set you a plan. And I think it then loaded for half an hour to, to, set the actual plan. But that's so easy. You go from, it's pretty frictionless. Whereas I do think that. for a lot of people. Yeah. Just the admin of finding a coach. Yeah.

Anna:

back

Phoebe:

forth, figuring out, and maybe you don't get on with them. Yeah, you don't. And even a lot of coaching, they're platforms. You don't know which coach you're gonna get within it Yeah. I don't know, I just think there's a lot more head noise and complications around

Anna:

Yeah. Well I feel like everything, I mean we've even spoken about before with dopamine injections but everything now is so accessible. as soon as you decide you want something, I feel like people wanted it yesterday. Yeah,

Phoebe:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna:

yeah. So for a program like this, it's oh, you know what? I'm gonna sign

Phoebe:

It's on demand.

Anna:

like, I'm gonna do this. And then it's what, half an hour later. Yeah. And they have a 12 week personalized inverted

Phoebe:

Exactly. Program. Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely understand that. some of the other feedback we got was. A really interesting point of disagreement, I think from the community is about who it's for. Because there are certainly some people that think it's perfect for beginners. Mm. And there are a lot of other people who think you need to have some experience to be able to use it well.

Anna:

Yeah. And so why do you think people were thinking it's good for beginners?

Phoebe:

So to quote someone, someone said, great for beginners helped me build a foundation and understand different sessions and paces. And it definitely does that. it, has a description of temporary, what does that mean? Like it does all that. And I also think if you've gone from nothing to something, it's a structure. Yeah. That's probably 10 times better than what you'd be doing if you had no idea.

Anna:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I also think why it is good for beginners is because it is so much cheaper. Yes. I feel like it's a great way for people to dip their toe in the water before they actually jump in. Totally. So to kind of suss out whether or not running and doing this is what they want. Yeah. And without having to be accountable or to answer to someone if they don't wanna do it in four weeks kind of thing. Totally.

Phoebe:

Which is, it's probably the same for a lot of people are saying they just use chat GBT to do that or like any app. But runner obviously just I think because of how good user experiences and so on, it's done a better job at capturing those people are like, oh cool, let's give it out a go. Seeing what

Anna:

Yeah. Program.

Phoebe:

cause it's interesting that point of help me build a foundation, understand different sessions and paces. Like a coach would do that too,

Anna:

Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe:

But it's just lower stakes.

Anna:

Yeah. And also maybe as well people. if it's all sort of explained and set out for you, it's great as a way to learn. But I feel like some people, they might be a bit embarrassed to acknowledge that they actually don't know what some of these sessions

Phoebe:

dunno.

Anna:

I even remember speaking with Ellie, my old coach and asking, I can't remember what it was, but asking her something.'cause I didn't really know what a word, I didn't actually know what she meant by it, but that even took, which is so silly, but like at the time, I kind of felt like I had to like build up the courage to actually ask,

Phoebe:

Yeah.

Anna:

sort of like embarrassed to admit that I didn't know what she was talking about. Yeah.

Phoebe:

But I think that is a hundred percent a thing. And also just. people I think would be embarrassed to ask for a, I don't know, like there is an

Anna:

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe:

and it's just easier when, you know it's not a real person. Yeah. Um, it's not gonna judge you for your paces. Like, not that coaches do, but there is obviously the fear that they would. Yeah. and the other side of the fence though, did you read some of the comments from people who thought it was better for more experienced runners?

Anna:

Yeah. Which I hadn't thought of that before, but I really agree. Well, I agreed with a lot of those comments. most of them were coming from the idea that you need to have a level of experience to be able to read a AI generated program. but then also take into account other like stresses in your life, how you're actually feeling on that day. And maybe so you do the run that it says, or you alter it accordingly. and they were kind of saying the beginner runners don't have the knowledge to be able to do that, so they'll just go ahead.

Phoebe:

Yeah. do you, so do you think the idea there is that they think a coach would do that for you if you were more of a beginner runner? Like, I

Anna:

so. Maybe they would. Yeah. But I think it is on a personal basis? Yeah. Like from person to person. I wouldn't matter if it was an AI program or a actual human. previously in my past life different. Now

Phoebe:

I.

Anna:

I, wouldn't have said that I am tired or whatever because I would've wanted to do the session. So I just feel like it's completely

Phoebe:

peaceful person think. Yeah. I think no matter what, throughout your entire running life you'll always have to be learning how not to overdo it, how to listen to your body. that is a constant journey. Yeah. I don't think that's different with a coach or not. Maybe a coach could give you more tips around it, but like

Anna:

but I feel like that's something that only you can really

Phoebe:

be. Yeah, I, I think it comes more from a, there was a fear in people who don't use it that it would give you something that was way too hard or way too much and I can't speak to that'cause I don't know what it would give someone who put in that they didn't have any running experience. But I'm like, surely it just gives you similar to like a catch 5K program. I can't imagine that it would be

Anna:

super. Yeah. Yeah. Someone I know uses runner and absolutely loves it. they've done a few half marathons. a bit of a beginner, but they just feel like the accountability of it makes them actually go for the run. So even just the accountability of the AI generated program, which is so, it's so crazy to think how our minds work.

Phoebe:

Yeah, I know.

Anna:

Um, but also gives Jim down the air Yeah, yeah. they just find it so helpful because they, it's just like this whole nother world that they are exposed to. Yeah. Whereas they're not, they wouldn't consider themselves a dedicated runner, so there is no way that they would ever look to getting A person to

Phoebe:

a real coach Yeah. Yeah. I think that's bad. Not an artificial coach. Yeah. I think one of the points that I thought was good was someone was saying like, it took them a few good prompts to get the right plan. Mm-hmm. And I, that was definitely my experience. Again, I'll talk a little bit more soon about the program that it gave me, but I had to make a few adjustments.'cause when I first saw it, I was like, that's not right.

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

And that's the only thing with experience is like, you don't know to say that's not right unless you run for a bit and you're like, oh, that's, That

Anna:

That seems silly.

Phoebe:

Yeah. Um, and so I definitely think I. That there would definitely be an element of, the more experience you have running, the better you're gonna be able to respond to any plan you're given. Mm-hmm. Like a coach plan isn't gonna be perfect either. I think there's, it's probably always about learning to be able to balance what the program tells you with listening to your own

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

Let's talk about the quality of the actual program that

Anna:

Yeah, yeah. So in comparison to the program that you get from your current coach, what was the difference in load? So how much you were

Phoebe:

a leak

Anna:

every week, and also how, um, hard you are running each week.

Phoebe:

Yeah. So it gave me basically a 10 week program in the lead up to, I'm gonna do hopefully Gold Coast Half Marathon. Yeah. Haven't got a ticket yet, but I'll see if someone, someone in the community's trying to get rid of one, I would love to do it. And so it gave me a 10 week program and it basically built up from week one, it started me at 50 kilometers mm-hmm. In the week. And it built up to max 70 kilometers, peak, which was week seven. Yeah. And then kind of down to taper to the run, which, obviously at the moment I'm running like 80, 85 Ks a week. So my first thought was why did it not ask to plug into my training and get the details

Anna:

Yeah. Or even just, I'm, I'm surprised it didn't ask your history for the past six weeks.

Phoebe:

there's,

Anna:

do you know

Phoebe:

I mean, there are so many questions. That it didn't ask, that would've given it a much, much, much better program. I think what they're trying to do is just reduce barriers to starting. If you have to fill out a whole questionnaire, people are just gonna stop. And I'm guessing what it does is as you go, it learns and maybe it increases it. But then, so I went back into the settings and actually found the question about, how much load do you want? And I put it on Max, max, max amount.'cause I was interested to see. And even then, my longest week was 76 kilometers, which is still less than I'm running now. And the longest run was 21 Ks, I think. Yeah. Okay.

Anna:

and how long would your longest run be, on your

Phoebe:

uh, probably two hours. So probably maybe some would go just not, probably two hours for a half

Anna:

So what, 24

Phoebe:

let's say that, yeah. 24 Ks. So not a map. Actually, it's a pretty big difference. Like 21, 24, I'd be doing two hours every weekend. This has a lot of my long runs at like 16 Ks. Yeah. but the two biggest differences in the programs, the sessions that it gave me. Let's start with, the session that it gave me for Monday is five by one K at three minute, 40 pace within a 92nd rest, 2K warmup, and 1.8 k call down. And then Wednesday it told me to do 2K, 3 55, and then two by one K at three 40 fives.

Anna:

And that's the whole

Phoebe:

it for the whole week. So really small session. So for comparison, I would normally do maybe like six Ks of work once, and then maybe my second session would be more like eight or nine Ks of work. So this is significantly less. Also, it's given me paces that are, are a fair bit slower than I would usually

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

And it's very prescriptive with its paces. It doesn't give a range. It says, do

Anna:

says do it. Yeah.

Phoebe:

Which I automatically don't like, because I think that's gonna feel really different on different days. Yeah. But also I, I, can't understand how it's come up with these sessions. And maybe for me, this is the biggest difference. If I had a session that I don't understand, I ask Gary, what's the point of this session? And he'll explain it to me and I couldn't see on runner and ability to just ask, it has a little

Anna:

the point of this session?

Phoebe:

but I read the description. I was like, that makes no sense. Yeah. And

Anna:

And yeah.

Phoebe:

and then I look at, looked at the whole program stepping back and I was like. This is the randomest program ever. I don't understand. Some Mondays I'm doing tempos. Sometimes I'm doing session interval

Anna:

Oh, so there's no consistency in the days that you

Phoebe:

yeah, I mean, it, it tended to give me, I think more sessions on the Wednesdays this Saturday it gave me a progressive long run, so it got faster towards the end, and that was the only time in the whole program I had it. Every other long run is conversational pace. Yeah. It's just really confus. It's just a really random program.

Anna:

I wonder if it's due to the day that you started it or something. Like, did you start it just this week and then it, and then maybe in its head it's like, oh, I've missed sessions for

Phoebe:

this? No, it's, that was for this whole week and it ended with a progressive long run. It's just super random. and yeah, I, I feel like with Gary, I always know the purpose of a block. What am I trying to do in this block? What is the what? Outcome. Yeah. And this, I have no idea. Yeah. And it actually reminded me of how I see AI use AI quite a bit. at work or I see it at used and ai. it often sounds right until you read it, and you're like, oh, that's not, like, there's nothing really to that. There's not a lot of substance. So for example, when I'm marking job applications that are written by ai, read it first. You're like, oh, it sounds good. Then you're like, hang on you've literally said nothing.

Anna:

I feel like it's kind of one of those like the, it's like good from far, but far from good. Like it kind of gets the gist. It

Phoebe:

It gets the gist. But

Anna:

Then actually when you think about it,

Phoebe:

it was so weird. It's the weirdest program.

Anna:

Yeah. But I guess that's literally in your work, but also these programs,

Phoebe:

Mm. between

Anna:

having a human Yeah. And someone that you can feed off conversationally and also their thought process is so different to, ai.

Phoebe:

that's, that's the thing is it is for now and I think that, I genuinely think AI models for running training are gonna get 50 times better and they will probably be a lot better. Yeah. In literally six months time maybe. I don't know. I just think that this is so not there right now. It's fine. It's a program. You stick to it, you run it. Yeah. You would definitely get fitter. Yeah. It's in my mind, at least compared to what my coach gives me, it's quite conservative, but I'm more I don't know, runner's training philosophy. I don't know what it cares about. Yeah. You know, different coaches, real coaches, they have theories and they have hypotheses and they have their idea about what will help a different kind of runner. I just have no insight into what runner the app cares about it's got this kind of hodgepodge of random sessions

Anna:

Yeah. In a way though, I feel like majority of the people that are probably using it don't really care for that.

Phoebe:

Yeah. I completely agree. I think

Anna:

and I wonder if you would, even if you didn't know that from being coached by Gary or being coached by a human,

Phoebe:

you wouldn't,

Anna:

you wouldn't, like, you don't really know what you're missing out

Phoebe:

No. I would not have known a few years ago if I just, yeah. I would've been like, cool. It's a

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

And it isn't, until I've been coached by Gary for five years and I've asked him so many questions about what we're doing and why and so on that I, I didn't even realize till I saw this, that I have built up my own idea in my head Yeah. Of the purpose of different sessions. And I love going into a session and understanding the value of it and what I'm trying to do with it. And I don't. Know that. to be fair, runner tries to tell you this is what the session's for,

Anna:

little, but yeah, I saw Bet they like,

Phoebe:

so random.

Anna:

And I will say though, in honors defense, I appreciate the, in comparison to your

Phoebe:

program,

Anna:

the moment, I think it's really good that it's, on the conservative side of that, it would be worrying if it, if it was, if it

Phoebe:

was as if it was Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna:

Because you, you, you run a lot and like, as we said, it doesn't ask the questions. It doesn't actually know Yeah. How much you run. And to think, like, imagine how dangerous it would be if it was telling people

Phoebe:

Yeah. That

Anna:

run a crazy amount just because they've put in their thing they're super Well,

Phoebe:

I would've thought that when I put it up on Max, it at least tried to match what I was doing. Now, like, I don't know. I, I feel like the thing is if you go to a coach, plenty of coaches wouldn't give me the amount maybe that

Anna:

was gonna say, I feel like your coach now. he does give a lot of volume.

Phoebe:

Well, yeah, I mean, I'm definitely running a lot less now, even then historically. Yeah. So he, he definitely does the thing about I, and that is totally a personal preference thing'cause there are definitely people who don't wanna do that. I truly think I have gotten way better outcomes from working with Gary than I would from so many other coaches. And I I would never, ever, ever have believed I was capable of running a hundred kilometers a week until I was on a program that gradually built me up there. And then I was like. Oh, I'm doing it. Yeah.

Anna:

And may, but maybe runner would do that if you got to know her, if, if it got to know you for two years,

Phoebe:

reckon. I reckon if it got to know you, it would give you a lot more. I guess it just starts at really conservative and I think the whole thing is it starts you off low, builds you, builds you, builds you, and then you taper. Yeah. And so, I dunno what it would look like if you weren't trying to train for a race. Yeah. apparently it does the same with your paces. So now I said I thought the paces that it set me were much slower than I would, or slower than I would run now apparently the paces progress as you go, as well as the load,

Anna:

Ah, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe:

So there were a few comments from people in the community who used it that were frustrating saying the target prices progressed too fast for me. It switches its paces too much rather than letting me adjust to my schedule myself. Then other people really liked it. So it clearly does try and adjust it to your schedule. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. What are your thoughts on runner?

Anna:

I think it's, I think it's great to an extent. I think it's accessible. it doesn't matter where you live, what you do, what you even do for work. even if you're a shift worker for instance, you're much less likely to be able to go to a run club and do those sorts of things. and I think it's great if people, they don't wanna pay for whatever reason, they don't wanna pay the$120 because previously before runner and ai, you either had a running coach

Phoebe:

paid a lot

Anna:

and paid an a pretty exorbitant amount of money. If you think about it, of what they're Yeah. For each month, particularly when a lot of the time, you're not even seeing them, or nothing. I think it's great that there's some form of middle ground and I feel like in so many people's situations, it can be really great. I do think there is the cons. quite prolific in a sense. And I mean, the end of the day, I, I was saying, know this is like a bit old school, but I feel like there's something so sad about the idea that something like running where we speak about a lot, that the connection that you gain with people is so special. I really think that the run and coach relationship can be really special. And I find it really sad that a computer is kind of overtaking that in a lot of ways. And I feel like there are so many aspects of life where you're losing human connection and it's just another one, infiltrated into the like running coaching space.

Phoebe:

I, yeah. To just say something there.'cause that was probably one of my overarching thoughts when I was using the app is I feel like the reality is that people don't like, interacting with other

Anna:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's, it's isolating. Like you're not, I, I know there's these faux coaches. Yeah.

Phoebe:

oh, they're ridiculous. it'll be like, ex-Co.

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

Says great work. I, I, it's silly, but it's not that because I kind of get it, like I said before, let's say the gym. I was looking for a gym that I could just, I would not need to meet a single person through. I could, as in, I wouldn't need to get an induction and get given a fob. I wanted something that I could literally download on my phone. Scan in

Anna:

antisocial. No,

Phoebe:

know. And

Anna:

but No, a hundred percent. I

Phoebe:

and like I probably should get a PT and pay for that, but I just wanna work up and do my own thing. Yeah. And so

Anna:

you can't be bothered.

Phoebe:

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I'd have a great relationship with my pt.

Anna:

Yeah. Okay.

Phoebe:

great friends. Maybe we'd be great friends. No, but I think that it's so true of this age that if we can avoid interacting with people, we do. And I don't always think that's good for us at all. I completely agree. I just think. People feel like it's more effort if it involves interacting with people. Yeah. Whereas the reality is, have you listened to much podcast from the Happiness Lab? No. So there's this, the Happiness Lab, I think it's run out of, Harvard University. There's this, the lead psychologist there, she's called Laurie Santos. She goes on all these podcasts. She's amazing. But one of the things she talks about a lot is one of the biggest drivers of happiness is random interactions with people. Mm-hmm. And it's this bizarre thing that for some reason, random interactions with people throughout the day have a massive impact on our perceptions of happiness. And what's really interesting about that is if you ask someone, they would say oh, I'd rather have my headphones in than like, be nodding and smiling to

Anna:

or even if you observe people all, all the

Phoebe:

So like, we're, we're actually really bad at knowing what makes us. happy. and feel good. Yeah. And I feel like this is kind of just another symptom to that, in terms of not wanting to interact with a coach. Mm. Actually probably that those

Anna:

is exactly what you really rewarding. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's one of the things I miss about not having. I mean, maybe it's a little bit of a like self-absorbed kind of thing, in a sense, well,'cause it is in a sense,'cause you're talking about we only would talk about what I'm

Phoebe:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna:

and not so much stroking your ego, but is is very like self-interested.

Phoebe:

This is another thing though. So many people said they love to have positive runner because runner gives you a lot of feedback and it's super positive and it really hypes you up. I was watching my friend use it, or she was showing me the conversation she was having, being like, oh, I really struggled in this part of that run. And it was like, totally understand. I understand that part of the run got really hard, but what's amazing is you kept strong. I can see you are working hard here, but you push through, you finish really well.

Anna:

is that true? Was

Phoebe:

she Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh, it's really good'cause it has all the data from your run. Like it's not that hard to look at that. I'm like, I never have conversations with my coach like that. However,

Anna:

Yeah, that was shit.

Phoebe:

Well, AI never tells you no.

Anna:

Yeah, it doesn't. Does it

Phoebe:

love, my coach will call me out if I'm being lazy or if he thinks I am stopping too much in my long runs. And he'll have a hard conversation with me about it and be like, if you wanna get better, you actually can't keep doing this, or you're going way too slow in your long runs for a period of time. He really wanted me to go faster in my long run. he will have that hard conversation with me. Mm-hmm. And I just don't think, I mean, not everyone wants that, so that is totally fair. Yeah. I completely understand why you wouldn't want that, but I think that's an amazing thing about a relationship with a coach who cares about you, is that they should push you and they should be able to say

Anna:

and should challenge you.

Phoebe:

that's actually wrong. Like, don't do that. I don't know. I just don't think you're gonna get that from ai.

Anna:

No, no. Yeah.

Phoebe:

not yet. At least. oh actually I wanna say about the strength program it gives you, it is the Randomest strength program. Oh, really? I've ever seen, it's so weird. It's 50 different exercises. A lot of the, it's, it's really well set up again, the user experience. You can see the exercise you're meant

Anna:

I was gonna say, I've looked and you can,

Phoebe:

yeah, it's, again, when I look at what I'm doing, I'm like, what am I working on here? Yeah. But strength program would be the exact same as a running program. go see a pt, that's what I should be doing. Who can look at your weaknesses, look at your injury history, and make a plan

Anna:

But also, or I know that you don't have a pt, but you've been to the physio. You know what?

Phoebe:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna:

yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I I'm assuming it doesn't ask you what, what's your, injury

Phoebe:

history. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I generally think, I completely agree with you. it's so much better than nothing. And it's, it fills this gap, which is a massive gap of amateur runners who do not wanna pay an expensive amount for a coach. But do want a program and they want something consistent and they want something to interact with and engage with.

Anna:

and they, they wanna do the fun run or race in however long, and they want some guidance and also a sense of

Phoebe:

accountability. Yeah. So I if you want that with the warning, which I would also give if you were having a coach, which is that you still need to listen to your body. You still need to be able to push back on things and do your own learning and reading. I think it, is really good for that. I think if you have a good coach, you're gonna get better outcomes than you get out

Anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

Yeah. The best comparison is looking at this program compared to what my coach is going to give me and has given me in the lead up to Gold Coast. Half, I'll run a better time off what my coach has given me. I just have no doubt in my mind like

Anna:

which one are you more likely to get injured following?

Phoebe:

Oh, I mean, I'm running a lot less with runner. Mm.

Anna:

Mm.

Phoebe:

I don't think that running less in and of itself is what stops you getting

Anna:

No, but even, I mean, running less, but also, I guess the

Phoebe:

actually don't know because the intensity less, but I also would say, there's a much bigger curve in runner. it goes from 50 to 70 something within six weeks and then back down, and there's a down week in there. Whereas because my current program has just come the same the

Anna:

Mm. Yeah.

Phoebe:

it'll grow a little bit, but it's really similar. So

Anna:

I guess maybe as well in a sense that it's a bit warped because it doesn't know you and like, hasn't had, doesn't, do you know what I mean? Doesn't have the like, history. I,

Phoebe:

I, I'm really not convinced. That runner would get you less injured? in my specific situation, because I have a program that with high load, like maybe, but I generally think I get injured when I run through sicknesses. Mm-hmm. Not because of

Anna:

because, yeah.

Phoebe:

And I also think, I got injured all the time when I didn't have a program as well. I just think injury, it all comes down to listening to your body. I actually think running consistently is really good for injury prevention. so I don't know if it's more, more or less likely. but it's much cheaper.

Anna:

Yeah. And yeah,

Phoebe:

it's, a much easier experience. Like it literally pushes the run onto your watch, which tells you what to do. also actually the fact that it has prescribed paces I really don't like, and I don't think that's good for

Anna:

Yeah. I think there should be a range.'cause as we've spoken about on the podcast before, one day, whatever piece. Can feel very different to that pace the next day or three days prior.

Phoebe:

I think right now the quality of the program is lower. No doubt in my

Anna:

mind. Mm.

Phoebe:

I think AI will learn and be able to produce in not that long, really good

Anna:

Yeah. I think it's only a matter of time considering that how it is good. Like it's pretty, it's pretty impressive.

Phoebe:

I, I, I think the future of this, if I was to have a guess, would be that, I think 90% of these people who are using runner never would've used a coach anyway. So I don't actually think they're cannibalizing that market particularly. I think a lot of running coach companies are probably frustrated because they feel like it's taking their potential customers, but I actually think these people just aren't interested in paying that amount. I think the future of running coaches is if you're a coach, you can have a really good relationship and build trust with your athletes, then they're never gonna wanna use AI'cause it, it's gonna become about the relationship that you have.

Anna:

Maybe we'll actually just weed out the poor coaches

Phoebe:

I definitely think so, because

Anna:

because then, because they'll think, oh well I can get this anyway. Yeah. Much cheaper. Or as you're saying, if you have that

Phoebe:

special relationship with someone Exactly.

Anna:

and you really trust them, then you're obviously not going to swap

Phoebe:

that. And Yeah, I think good coaches who are in tune with their athletes and who have years of experience and are great at pattern matching and so on and so forth, people are always gonna have a great experience with them and not unless they don't wanna spend the money are not gonna come back down to this. But I completely agree. I think average coaches, people are just gonna move to this. Yeah. Like that's the reality of it. And that's.

Anna:

deserved.

Phoebe:

but really keen to hear if you've listened along, if you use Run, if you don't, shoot us a message. DM us on Instagram. Tell us your thoughts. Yeah, we'd love to know more. Love to know if you agree with our takes here. And keen to like keep following along the journey with Runner in terms of how it keeps adjusting its AI models. Yeah,

Anna:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited also, excited to see what Strava and runner are gonna do together.

Phoebe:

Um, but really keen All right. There's something else we wanted to talk about this episode.

Anna:

Yes. You have been trialing and you supplement, I believe.

Phoebe:

Mm-hmm. I'm, it's actually something we did an episode on a couple months ago on, which is creatine.

Anna:

Go back and listen if you haven't.

Phoebe:

Yes, it

Anna:

if I say so myself,

Phoebe:

It is a great app. We learned a lot and we've received a lot of questions. From people about how, been going, how we use it, or how I use it, I should say.'cause you haven't been

Anna:

I am not using it.

Phoebe:

so I've been taking it consistently for, I don't know, two months now. And I got advised by my diet, by dietician. Yeah. and when you don't eat meat, you actually aren't even getting enough creatine in the first place. And also, for runners, there's a lot of reasons why, particularly from a recovery and strength perspective. Yeah. it is really strong of your performance. Yeah. There's a lot of research to back that up. We can link the resource we've linked before, which is from the Australian Institute of Sport, where they have a supplement framework and they kind of talk through all the benefits of creatine.

Anna:

Maybe we'll also link our episode.'cause it actually, it was an interesting chat and yet we just go a little bit deeper into what Creatin is and why the research is saying that you should be using it for performance and running. so what are you using at the moment and how are you actually taking it?

Phoebe:

Well, I take one scoop a day. which is three to five milligrams. I, I normally do it straight after my run. Try and have protein as well as creatine

Anna:

in the same shake.

Phoebe:

Yeah, it's, it's flavorless. It's totally flavorless. Also so very kindly pillar, which a lot of you will have had us talk about pillar before they've sponsored the pod. bunch of times once they heard that we did this, episode and that I was gonna be trying, creatine, they sent us some to try. So I've been using pill. it's creatine monohydrate, which is what we said in the episode, is the one that you need to be taking. Yeah. They also, their kind of point of difference, I suppose, is that they use CRE Pure. Mm-hmm. Which is basically the purest form of creatine monohydrate available. Yeah. And they have gone through every single safety check, performance check. this is the gold standard. It's also vegan, which I really like. essentially I just take a scoop of that every day. so Pillar is sponsoring the next couple of episodes and I wanted to Talk about some of the impacts I've noticed through taking creatine. Today I am gonna talk about the impact I've noticed on my recovery and my

Anna:

Oh,

Phoebe:

So this is super interesting'cause Liz will know I have an aura ring, which tracks my sleep really closely. And one of the data points I am most, most, most interested in is how far throughout the night my resting heart rate lowers. Yeah. So as we spoke about previously, there's this amazing data point, which is the low, when your heart rate reaches its lowest point in the night, essentially when it stabilizes, that's basically when you move from the first half of your sleep, which is more focused on deep sleep and physical recovery into re sleep and mental recovery. Yeah. And so if it, lowers later throughout the night, then it means it's taking your body a long time to

Anna:

To recover.

Phoebe:

And I have had periods where it has taken my body all night to recover

Anna:

in the morning. It's still not there.

Phoebe:

And I was marathon training and, and anemic. My, recovery has been noticeably improving like almost every night. It's in the first half of the night. Really? Which is so interesting. Like, I dunno if it's my iron, the fact that my iron's higher, like I actually can't completely dissociate these two.'cause I started at the same time. But it is one of the biggest differences in my data is how much better I've been recovering. Yeah. And this is one of the biggest, impacts of creatine for runners is how much it helps your muscle recovery. Mm-hmm. So I'm definitely, I would keep doing it purely based off that, of that, that is like such an important data point for

Anna:

for me. That is so

Phoebe:

Yeah. It's really cool. Yeah.

Anna:

mean, we, you spoke about it at the start of the episode about one of the highlights being of the last few weeks is just that you're feeling better running. Like who knows?

Phoebe:

A hundred percent. I'm gonna keep telling over the next couple weeks the other things that I've noticed, small to big things that I've noticed since taking it consistently. But, couldn't recommend it more Highly Jump on the pillow website. if you wanna have a check it out and thank you Pillow.

Anna:

Yeah. Thank you very much to Pillar performance for making this episode of Cheeky Possible. Yay.

Phoebe:

And thank you for listening

Anna:

And thank you for listening. And thank you for being here on this couch with me. Thank you. It feels

Phoebe:

so good to be back.

Anna:

good to be back. Yay. Hooray.

Phoebe:

Hooray. I bet that's what all listeners are thinking. Hooray. They're back. We're sorry we left you for so long.

Anna:

and on that note,

Phoebe:

If you have a friend who uses runner or has strong opinions on runner, please share it with them as well, because we really wanna get feedback and thoughts. otherwise we can't wait

Anna:

to be in your

Phoebe:

ears next week.

Anna:

Ah,

Phoebe:

Bye.

Anna:

bye.

Phoebe:

Sorry, Kiara. It's really

Anna:

people on the internet just wanna play dead fish.

Phoebe:

Yeah. What does that mean?

Anna:

It's that game that you play in primary school. It's pretty much when the teachers wanna break and they say, all right, let's play dead fish. And everyone

Phoebe:

Oh, sleeping lions

Anna:

What

Phoebe:

Sleeping lions?

Anna:

is that, what it's called in Queensland? Sleeping lions.

Phoebe:

in like a, you know, um,

Anna:

that's kind of cuter than

Phoebe:

year eight birthday. Oh no, no. Year

Anna:

Oh,

Phoebe:

8-year-old.

Anna:

my 21st birthday body.