Cheeky Run Club

Is Runna worth the hype?

• Phoebe Pincus & Anna Coldham • Season 6 • Episode 1

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0:00 | 59:58

WE'RE BAAAAACK with season 6 babyyyyy!!!! 

In this ep we unpack the rise and rise of the AI training program app 'Runna', including comparing the program it gave us to a program written by a coach, and boy oh boy is there a lot to talk about. We look at the pros and cons of what an AI training program can provide for different levels of runners and share a lot of the communities' thoughts too.

At the end of the episode we also unpack how Phoebe has found the last 2 months of taking creatine and some very cool results on that front.

LINKS:

Thank you so much to Pillar Performance for making this episode possible 🩷

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, TikTok, Substack, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

Music produced by Hugh Raper & logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

Phoebe

Cheeky Run Club recognizes that every day we live, work, and run on Aboriginal land.

Anna

This episode of Cheeky Run Club is brought to you by Pillar Performance and their brand new creatine supplement.

Phoebe

Welcome to Cheeky Run Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello

Anna

Hello Phoebe

Phoebe

and hello listeners. Today

Anna

are going to try and answer the question of is runner worth the hype? We have had a good look at the app and done some super sleuthing and also had hundreds and hundreds of messages off the back of our Instagram stories with very strong opinions both ways. So we are super excited to unpack both sides of the debate.

Phoebe

But first, as always, let's kick it off with our notable runs of the last few weeks because we are

Anna

We're back

Phoebe

We've had a really long, cheeky holiday.

Anna

only has Cheeky been on holidays. our friendship has been on holidays. We haven't seen each other for three weeks.

Phoebe

still consider you my friend, even when you're in another country.

Anna

It's so weird. It's actually crazy. Phoebe and I literally see each other every day, or if not every day, every couple of days. And

Phoebe

long has it been

Anna

it's been since

Phoebe

pre Easter.

Anna

after Dark,

Phoebe

Since

Anna

three weeks ago.

Phoebe

Wow. How are you? I'm

Anna

good. How are

Phoebe

good. I'm good. I'm the picture of health right now,

Anna

Yeah.

Phoebe

can tell. In my voice.

Anna

Croaky voice and

Phoebe

I know something don't

Anna

change.

Phoebe

Every time I go away for work, I come back with no voice.

Anna

I am sure that I might hear about it in one of your notable run or running related activities, but very keen to hear about your hike in New Zealand.

Phoebe

I actually forgot about that. Oh.

Anna

Oh

Phoebe

So it wasn't gonna be my notable, but yeah. Maybe I'll update my best run.

Anna

gimme your best. Okay, well

Phoebe

well I wasn't, now I'm

Anna

Oh God.

Phoebe

a, I'll give it as a runner up. So I did a three day hike in New Zealand with, most of my family. Unfortunately, my sister and her family couldn't come, 60 kilometers. It's called the Hump Bridge Track right down the bottom of the south island. It was absolutely stunning. It's one of the great walks in New Zealand. so the facilities are amazing. Yeah. It's mostly walking on actual path, not just not super traily. Yeah. you stay in these cabins that have really nice views, and you can kind of cook food there and everything. So it's a really luxurious hike. Yeah. it was super fun. It was hard. I think I was a bit smug going into it'cause I've done some big hikes

Anna

Yeah. And also I remember you saying that you'd done it before.

Phoebe

done this hike

Anna

so it was like, you've clocked it once.

Phoebe

I clocked it once. I actually do remember finding it hard last time, but I thought this time I'm more, I'm fit. I'm fit. Yeah. And I've just done, I've done way more hardcore hikes And so I was like, don't worry guys. I was

Anna

Yeah. I've got this. Don't guys, I've nearly died on a hike

Phoebe

Yeah. Yeah, literally. but I actually found it really hard. especially day one, you're hiking up. Mm-hmm. And in my head, that was the hardest day, but that was completely fine. Day two is down. Yeah. And that was so hard. Oh, really? Like just downstairs for, I don't know.

Anna

yeah, that your quads. That would be really

Phoebe

And calves. My calves. So then by day three, my calves had no power in them. it was crazy. They were so tired. and then I had to have like a few days off running. Afterwards as well.'cause I was like, oh, they're just like, my legs are are literally

Anna

three days. That's So we, yeah, we walking pretty much all day

Phoebe

No. It's maybe like five or six hours of walking. Yeah. So it's pretty good. Like You stop and eat, you stop whenever there's a beautiful view and then we'd kind of get in at three or whatever, three or four. Play some cards. Yeah,

Anna

I did see that from the reel

Phoebe

From the reel. Yes. so that was my, I'm gonna call that my notable, my runner up. Notable. Yeah. And then I was gonna give a really, generic but good update around. I think my iron is super high. You're feeling good?

Anna

good?

Phoebe

Well, I'm now almost 12 weeks post infusion. Yeah. And they did say it could take 10 to 12 weeks. I think I've been feeling better and better since I got the iron infusion, but I feel like about two weeks ago, I just felt this like. Lightness on my runs that I haven't felt in a year. Oh. And my, I have noticed my heart rate and my runs is like right back down to where it used to be. And I can't really explain it, but running is just feeling easier at the moment. And it's not,'cause I'm fitter, I'm definitely no fitter than I was. Even when

Anna

I

Phoebe

a hard, long run, I'm not getting anywhere near the same fatigue. Yeah. I feel completely fine. Like, I'm like, oh, this is

Anna

You're like tired, but you're fine. Kind of.

Phoebe

But I'm fine. Yeah. It's, it's this really noticeable. Difference. And it's really exciting.

Anna

Oh, that's so good. I'm so happy.

Phoebe

I, yeah. I'm just feeling so much.

Anna

about bloody time. Yeah.

Phoebe

Yeah. So I actually need to go, I'm having like a checkup on to get where my eye levels actually are this week. And so then I'll be able to like fully report where my ferritin is, which would be exciting. But I am feeling like it's making a massive difference and yes. That's exciting. Very exciting. What about you? What was your best run or running related activity?

Anna

lucky enough, I went to New York for Easter and Anzac Day. I, took three days, annual leave and got 10 days off, or

Phoebe

So good.

Anna

off or something. my husband Dave and I went to visit our old housemate, Georgie.

Phoebe

Yay.

Anna

Um, she moved over there almost two years ago now, which is crazy'cause it means I haven't lived with her for nearly two years.

Phoebe

Yeah, it does mean.

Anna

but it was so, the whole trip, it was really, really cool. It was so exciting. Like seeing her new life. Yeah. It's, it was, so, there's something really strange about going from living with someone so literal we

Phoebe

did

Anna

so much together as well.

Phoebe

And especially even through Covid

Anna

everything. Yeah, yeah. From that to her moving overseas

Phoebe

Yeah. Not

Anna

obviously like we chat and

Phoebe

everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Actually you're in each other's pockets. No. And then it's cool to see, like

Anna

every day kind of thing. Yeah.

Phoebe

And then you get to see what her life looks

Anna

Yeah. She's not that anyone needs to know this, but Yeah. She's

Phoebe

just, they should, people should know about Georgie.

Anna

if you Yeah, actually I, she is one of the best people. To know

Phoebe

Yeah. Just to know.

Anna

Like everyone loves her. just sorry. back to the point. My best running related. I've kind of got two both. Were

Phoebe

you. Okay. I'll allow it.'cause I did just give two. Yeah.

Anna

Yeah. So one was just going for a run with her. It was just so nice. we haven't done it in ages and It was one of the first one runs I went on and. going along the Hudson River. It was just so cool. we were looking over to New Jersey it was so sick. And then the second one is Dave and I went for a run around Central Park. Oh yeah. And I'm like big sex in the city fan and just everything in New York. They kept baggy meek because everything I saw, I would just say, oh, that's so cool

Phoebe

So you could recognize it from sex

Anna

Well, I could recognize certain things. But also it's just like the street scapes and everything is just obviously'cause it's film there, it's just the same obviously. But I don't know, there's something like really nostalgic about

Phoebe

Wow.

Anna

all of it in real life. I just loved it. And Central Park is so beautiful. Yeah, it is such a beautiful park. There are so many runners there. So run that we did was on the Wednesday and Boston Marathon had just been on. Oh. And there were already people that decked out in their

Phoebe

Boston

Anna

Like,'cause they, they'd obviously like come home and they're like going around the track. Yeah. It was really, it was really cool Highly recommend going to the big Apple.

Phoebe

That's a hot tip. Go to the big

Anna

I normally hate cities and I loved

Phoebe

it. Running wreck of the week.

Anna

work of the week, go to Big Apple. Go to the big Apple. It will only cost you your arm and a

Phoebe

Yeah. True.

Anna

what is your worst running? A running related experience?

Phoebe

Okay. Worst run was a run this week. I, was in Sydney this week for work, and we had a really big week. We had a lot of events we were running, which is all really exciting. It all went really well. But it does mean a lot of hard work and late nights. And historically when I've gone to Sydney for these weeks, I've still done my full on training program. Yeah. I've gone to Run Crew, which is the group that I run with, and I join in with them And I actually didn't this week. This week, I was like, I'm just going to do what I feel like each morning. Um, thank you. And I also just, oh, this is almost gonna be a best run. one day I did, oh, this morning, I just like went for runs with friends and stuff, which is really nice. But one morning I ran by myself was Tuesday morning and I actually had to run. Way earlier than the, normal run crew session is. So I was like, I'll just do what I feel like. And I just tried to do some eight hundreds and four hundreds and I was just running in the dark around the park and I was so tired. I think I'd only had five hours sleep safe the previous few nights. I hadn't, this is one of my challenges when I travel for work and I'm interested to here if anyone has good strategies for this, but I really struggle with my nutrition. I, I always have a good breakfast, but my lunches are like whatever. I pick up kind of when, and everyone's on the go and I often, it's like a group lunch and I'm sort of eating whatever's there. And then the dinners were always vegetarian. It's really,

Anna

Yeah. You like minimizes

Phoebe

The vegetarian. It's like there's really not, yeah, definitely was making it difficult. And then dinners, we were just having them really late some nights and so my, I don't know, it just like wasn't in my normal. feel, and then my snacks. I normally try and have good snacks throughout the day, and I wasn't having any of that, so I felt just quite depleted on this run. Yeah. but I did like partway through, I was just like, okay, I'll just call it and I'll just finish this session now. Yeah. jog home. Yeah. So it was fine, but I was definitely like, oh, that it's not enjoyable running when you feel that way.

Anna

no

Phoebe

No. Yeah. Yes. Tired,

Anna

dark by yourself. Yeah.

Phoebe

Yeah. I don't know. It just, and I was just wearing, I don't know, I feel like I've become such a princess of my running shoes and wearing, like super shoes in my sessions.

Anna

Oh, and you weren't? No,

Phoebe

a good word. No, I was just wearing normal jo joggers and doing my

Anna

possibly

Phoebe

and I was like, oh, they just feel so slow.

Anna

you're like, it's not me, it's the shoes.

Phoebe

was like, when did I become this person? I never, I never, ever, ever used to wear like different shoes, my sessions and then once you start it's just feels

Anna

Yeah. You can't go back.

Phoebe

I know. What was your worst run?

Anna

mine also was this week, so we got back on Sunday after a bit of a, delay. And then I had to work on Monday and then I thought, you know what, maybe it would be good for me. I was on Monday. I was, was saying to you off mic before, physically I was at work, but mentally spiritu, I I don't, I don't think I existed. I don't know where I was. I said to Phoebe before, I was like looking at a few emails and stuff that I'd sent on Monday and they were atrocious. Anyway,

Phoebe

like, oh no,

Anna

sorry, I don't think my boss listens. and Oh, yes. Anyway, so I thought maybe it would be a good idea. I got through the day at work and I thought maybe it would be a good idea to try to run home. It's only about four, five Ks ish, like maybe that will kind

Phoebe

of Oh, yeah. Feel

Anna

little bit better because I've still wanted to try to get to

Phoebe

the right

Anna

time of the right time to like go to bed. Like I didn't wanna go home and just fall asleep at

Phoebe

Yeah. Six

Anna

six or whatever. Anyway, I started running, and maybe this is similar to how you're feeling when you're really low in iron, I'm unfit anyway, every run is running's not enjoyable for me at the moment.'cause

Phoebe

it's oh,

Anna

everyone's hard. I'm just really not fit. Um, sorry. It is still enjoyable.

Phoebe

I was like, oh God,

Anna

but

Phoebe

got dark.

Anna

and like, no, no. Run is easy. I, I now have this whole new appreciation of why people. struggled to get into running because it's really

Phoebe

hot.

Anna

at the beginning. Anyway, I digress. and then I think I got a kilometer and a half and I thought, I'm just gonna walk for a little bit. And then I tried to run again and I just thought, honestly, stuff this, so then I just waddled home and it was so

Phoebe

so,

Anna

hard. Even walking was so hard. And at one point I thought I saw a bench and I thought, oh, maybe I'll just have a little

Phoebe

sip on the bench.

Anna

And I was like, do not sit on the bench. If you sit on the bench, you'll fall asleep.

Phoebe

my God. I would love to have seen, I feel like I get pictures in my head. You just so demoralized like I,

Anna

I really hope no one saw me on Monday. Otherwise I'd be like, that girl looks so sad.

Phoebe

oh, mind you, I cannot think of anything worse than running, than Jet Laed.

Anna

Yeah, it was really, yeah, it was really, really hard. Yeah, I know. Well, on the Sunday my like method of staying awake was just to keep eating, but then I felt really sick on Monday'cause I'd eaten so much on the Sundays. I thought, let's try something else. Anyway, that was a big intro. okay. Shall we get into

Phoebe

the magic of this week?

Anna

of this week?

Phoebe

Let's do it because I'm so excited to talk about this. We do. I don't think we've ever talked about something more divisive than runner.

Anna

Yes. Seriously.

Phoebe

So we're going to,

Anna

I also, I'll put on record. I didn't realize it was this divisive until we did

Phoebe

the, no,

Anna

No,

Phoebe

I didn't. It is a heated topic in the running world. So basically what we wanna do is unpack the rise of the AI running program App Runner. And we also then just generally want to discuss the landscape when it comes to Real life coaches versus AI training plants. as Anna mentioned at the start, we did get you guys to weigh in during the week. So we're also gonna share a lot of the community sentiment around this because turns out there are some strong opinions on either side of the program.

Anna

It was crazy for every strong opinion. One way there was to the

Phoebe

other. Yeah, I know.

Anna

like, I would love to get everyone in a room.

Phoebe

Oh my gosh. Well, we, we will essentially try and represent both sides as fairly as possible and then also give our own opinions.'cause as I said, we did, we both had a look at the app. I actually got it to make me a program. Yeah. and

Anna

compared it with your

Phoebe

my current program. Yeah. So that was extremely interesting and I'm keen to unpack, but really I think the reason the run has been, it's super topical in the running world right now. It's because it's recently been acquired by Strava.

Anna

str It has.

Phoebe

so let's give a quick rundown on what is Runner before. we talk a little bit a bit about the acquisition with Strava and then let's get into our thoughts and the community thoughts on runner and what is runner.

Anna

So runner burst onto the scene in 2021 as an AI powered run coaching app. it quickly climbed the app charts for everyone in need of any kind of running program.

Phoebe

It has grown really, really quickly. It's actually considerate and started in 2021. It has 150 staff working for it, and it's hiring 50 more, which gives you a really good indication of how quickly it's growing. Yeah.

Anna

in 2024, they triple the size of its team. So 2023, it must have only been

Phoebe

Yeah, it'll be known for its brand presence and it's like community influencer marketing it has done, and the fundamentals of the app aren't necessarily what sets it apart, but it's marketing strategies unbelievably effective. It also does have a hugely loyal user base. it seems to have a lot of people who, as per the responses, a lot of people use it and really, really it has lots of other features. It has stretching, and strength and so on that are designed to complement your running plan. It also. has a community feature on there, but I don't think many people use that. No. but in terms of the acquisition itself, I mean, in my mind it just makes a lot of sense. I've always been shocked that Strava doesn't do training plans. I think they apparently did try to do them once, but they're very poor. Yeah. So this makes complete sense to me. I also think Strava has been trying to integrate ai. I mean, everyone's probably seen the AI insights and they've been a bit of a joke.

Anna

They don't really seem to work very

Phoebe

well. Yeah. They also

Anna

think, yeah, I feel like for both companies it's like, I think it's mutually beneficial. Like for runner it gets access to one of the largest online running communities Yeah. As well.

Phoebe

And then I think Strava, obviously they get access to the training plans, but they also get the AI team that lives within runner. I think runner's AI

Anna

obviously. Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe

doing a better job of it. So it's almost potentially an acquisition for their tech as well as obviously runner's growing really quickly is probably profitable and yeah, it's gonna be a smart move in that sense.

Anna

One thing I am interested to see, and they haven't really, they haven't said that they've made a decision on it before, but how it's gonna work because of both programs are subscription based, and how that will kind of like. How they'll merge that in

Phoebe

I think it'll just end up being another tier, like the highest tier is, or an add-on. Like you could have, you know, premium version and add in.

Anna

a runner

Phoebe

version, like completely hypothesizing here, but I'm sure they'll integrate it. They haven't, obviously they haven't come out the gates and said they'll do it, but that is inevitably what will happen and that'll make sense.'cause I imagine 99% of the people who have runner have Strava as well. So it's just one less app. and I think there's actually good examples of how Strava's done this before. I think four years ago they bought fat maps, which was like the GPS kind of tracking and like root creation system. Yeah, yeah. And it took them years to integrate it, but now the Strava map your run feature is really good.

Anna

It's so, yeah. You use it, don't

Phoebe

I love, I, it's one of my favorite Strava

Anna

Yeah. I will say, I don't know if you got into the weeds of this, but on Reddit, and I feel like there are a lot of. People with strong opinions, obviously. I guess as well, people just don't really like change and I feel like there are a lot of Strava users and also runner users that are not happy. Yeah. About the the collaboration I guess between the two,

Phoebe

two, yeah. This Strava, did a post on Strava saying, Hey guys, be a quiet runner. Like explaining it really excited in your feed. And I looked at the comments and all the most liked comments were people being like, you're gonna ruin runner. Oh, what? Which blew my mind because I was like. It's str, like they're on Strava. They surely, like Strava pretends a lot of people use Strava but really don't like it or have a lot of gripes about it. Yeah, Which I didn't know. Like I loved Strava

Anna

Yeah, I, yeah, see there was a bit of that, but there were a lot of grumpy Strava. So what, like solely Strava

Phoebe

What is there to be unhappy about if you're on Strava? I think, are they worried it'll change their pricing or something?

Anna

Yeah, I think they were worried about the price change, and that it'll just incentivize being on a runner program so much that you'll get the, some Strava perks only if you are like a subscriber of runner as well. but it does, it did seem like just in general, the main gripe was they're gonna change the subscription and increase it because I think it was either last year or 2023, Strava actually had issues with their premium subscription because they changed the price without actually notifying anyone. It was only when their subscriptions renewed that they were getting

Phoebe

I didn't know

Anna

So I think maybe it's just like a little bit of, throwing Yeah. What's, what do you when you throw stones on the fire?

Phoebe

I tend to feel like there's just always angry people on the internet who just love to be annoyed about

Anna

I honestly, you can't do anything on the internet without people being

Phoebe

I don't think people like change as a rule. I think there's a lot of fear and just like They just don't

Anna

no one likes any change

Phoebe

I think it's silly to be a, People are so cynical about like, what's gonna happen? Yeah. Yeah. Like this makes complete sense. These are two apps that work together really well. Yeah. I'm sure that if you don't want it, you won't need to pay for it. Yeah. That's just don't pay for it if you don't want

Anna

Yeah, exactly. And like, as we said before, to be honest, like Strava's lack of any modern, functional in-app training plans was such a huge

Phoebe

omission. Yeah.

Anna

Yeah. Until now.

Phoebe

Now I think probably the more valid fear is, I guess if you lose your runner and love it then because then it's okay, you don't know exactly what they're going to do with it. Yeah. Like my hypothesis is that they'll obviously just integrate it and try and keep making it better. But I guess you could be worried that they wouldn't do

Anna

Yeah. So moving on, is runner good? And some of you who aren't familiar with runner looking at you, mom and dad. For context, we actually polled our audience and asked, so Interesting. Yeah. And asked where they get their training programs from. obviously runners, just one app and one like online running service,

Phoebe

35% of our listeners who responded used runner 26%. Don't use a coach at all. 20% use a coach either in person or online. And then 18% of listeners use other online programs that are not runner. So that is pretty crazy. is wild. Yeah. How quickly it has got such a massive proportion of the amateur running market.

Anna

I mean, do you think part of it comes into play that they would've been developing this app for a little while and maybe they just timed it quite well? Maybe even it might have been strategic, but maybe it's even a bit of luck

Phoebe

Oh, always. Yeah. Yeah,

Anna

timed it, they timed it with the boom of running

Phoebe

I and, and AI like, I think it's, it's for sure it's super fortuitous in that sense. It's also their marketing is really effective, clearly. They understand better than all these other channels that people. Take their recommendations off other influencers. Influencers in the running scene.

Anna

we do in the running scene and in

Phoebe

yeah. I mean, that's always been the case. That's like how humans work and they have just completely capitalized on that to the extent that it's actually turned to some people offered in the community just being like, I actually don't know if I can trust it, because I never know if someone's being paid to say something good

Anna

to say something. To say something.

Phoebe

So we should say we are absolutely not being paid. I mean, we're about to criticize it quite a bit as well as say the good things about it. So, but that blew my mind. How many people, like even just the 35% run up versus 18%, all other running apps, online programs, common apps, like

Anna

chat, GPT.

Phoebe

yeah. All of those. That is, crazy how, how much it's grown. Mm-hmm.

Anna

we're going to talk through what the community thinks about ai. Coaching in the form of runner. Mm-hmm. but at the same time, parallel to that, you have also done your own experiment Yes. With runner. Ah. Um, and compared it to,

Phoebe

and you've had a look at it too.

Anna

I have also had a look at it,

Phoebe

it. Yeah.

Anna

and compared it with the running program that you usually get. So, we'll chat through What the community thinks, but also your own personal experience and what we think. Yeah. So I guess number one, which was a huge, reason as to why people use runner was the cost.

Phoebe

Mm.

Anna

so it's$120 a year,

Phoebe

which is honestly, a lot of people would pay more than that a

Anna

A month for a coach in person or online. so that in itself is,

Phoebe

totally. I think for so many people they would have no interest in paying, you know,$150 a month for a running coach. No. The same reason that I don't pay that for a PT in the gym.

Anna

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Phoebe

do think you need a certain level of commitment. Yeah. Or dedication or, and

Anna

Or, but also I was gonna say maybe people would want to do that, but they simply just can't

Phoebe

Yeah. A hundred

Anna

like don't have that disposable income.

Phoebe

Yeah. So I think for a lot of people it was as simple as that. It was like, I'm paying, a 12th of what I would be paying otherwise. Yeah. It's like Cool. That makes complete sense. Yeah.

Anna

Yeah.

Phoebe

Yeah. I think the second thing to say that came up a bit, and then I'll talk about this in my own experience as well, but how easy it is to

Anna

Mm-hmm.

Phoebe

You download the app, you answer about four or five questions, it gives you a program. Yeah. and you almost everyone has a, two week free to start with compared to the, like, psychological barrier of submitting an inquiry to a coach. Yeah. Having a conversation. Yeah. Working through,

Anna

also, I feel like, quite a big teething period with, personal coach, whether it be in person or online in the sense that you're getting to know

Phoebe

how Yeah.

Anna

or more so the coach or actually both, but like more so the coach is kind of getting to know. what load is okay for you. Yeah. what other aspects of life stresses impact your running, and how to juggle all of those things together. And also just the type of person you are, I guess.

Phoebe

Like yeah,

Anna

whether or not you are someone who's just gonna not say anything and just keep pushing when you probably shouldn't. Or someone that maybe needs a little more encouragement because you're maybe a little bit scared or,

Phoebe

But even then, and not to get derailed too early, I think All coaches are so different, and I think at the moment we're gonna group coaches, just the ease of having the conversation into one bucket. But we're probably talking about, I think we both had some really good coaches in our time, and I actually don't think all coaches are probably that good necessarily. Like I think there are plenty that would not go to anywhere near that effort in fact, I know there are plenty of coaches that do that, that are just like couple questions. Here's a reasonably generic training plan. there's a lot of people who run coaches these days who've created their own running programs that they share that aren't qualified

Anna

They aren't

Phoebe

So I think we'll probably

Anna

like we've said before, it seems like every man and their dog are now

Phoebe

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um,

Anna

are,

Phoebe

oh my God, we are not coaches. to come back to the ease of use point, one of first things you notice using runner, it is a beautiful interface. It's very easy to use, it's very

Anna

use. It's very interest. They've done it very well.

Phoebe

done it really well. And when I compare that to the platform that I use for my, that my coach sets the program on, which is an app called Training Peaks. It's the most archaic, terrible user experience. Yeah. It's so annoying to

Anna

it's quite convoluted and like

Phoebe

oh yeah. It just,

Anna

it?

Phoebe

It's, it's really, really poor. And so my first thought is oh, I wish Gary could put my program on this app. Oh, yeah. Because it's so easy to visualize. Yeah. Like it's really

Anna

Yeah. I actually, in saying I hadn't really thought about it like that, but I used to get my program from Go

Phoebe

Google Sheets. Yeah. It's

Anna

an Excel spreadsheet and Yeah. There were different colors for if it was a session or a easy run. Yeah. But that was about, that was the extent of the, of the, um, aesthetics. Yeah.

Phoebe

Yeah. Whereas compared to even what a coach gives you, it gives you, a strength training to compliment your running. There's an ability to give it feedback or write notes after each run. Yeah. That then like, keeps informing it. That's amazing functionality that you actually can't really get from.

Anna

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Phoebe

Yeah. Running coaches.

Anna

because I would say most running coaches don't give you a strength

Phoebe

program. Definitely. Uh, I think most of'em would say, it's not my aex piece. Go see it. but yeah, in that sense it's, it's super comprehensive in terms of just a talk through, if you haven't used it before, basically you log in. one of the very first things that I did was select my goal race. Which is kind of cool'cause you can see like I can literally pick Gold Coast Marathon. Like it obviously knows where I am and it has the runs there and you can figure out, which I thought was awesome. but I actually dunno how it works if you don't have a goal race. Mm-hmm. It seems to be completely designed around. I'm sure you can just, there's a maintenance version of it, but I couldn't see it. Then basically you enter your 5K pb, which I did, and then you select your level. So there are four levels and the fourth one, which is elite, means that you have experience doing interval sessions. So that's the one I

Anna

still a pretty like low base. Well, well I feel like the, those levels,

Phoebe

a lot within that because like, yeah, I've done interval sessions for years, but there's a lot of people who've done interval sessions who are a lot more

Anna

Well, yeah.

Phoebe

am. So that's kind of interesting. But I guess that's probably what's most useful for them in terms of what program they can then give you. Do they need to introduce you to this? Yeah. And then I asked how intense I wanted the training program to be, which I just set up normal'cause I was like interested to see what it would give me. you tell it what days you wanna run on, like how many days a week and stuff. so it's really easy. It took me like two minutes and then it's boom, I'm gonna set you a plan. And I think it then loaded for half an hour to, to, set the actual plan. But that's so easy. You go from, it's pretty frictionless. Whereas I do think that. for a lot of people. Yeah. Just the admin of finding a coach. Yeah.

Anna

back

Phoebe

forth, figuring out, and maybe you don't get on with them. Yeah, you don't. And even a lot of coaching, they're platforms. You don't know which coach you're gonna get within it Yeah. I don't know, I just think there's a lot more head noise and complications around

Anna

Yeah. Well I feel like everything, I mean we've even spoken about before with dopamine injections but everything now is so accessible. as soon as you decide you want something, I feel like people wanted it yesterday. Yeah,

Phoebe

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna

yeah. So for a program like this, it's oh, you know what? I'm gonna sign

Phoebe

It's on demand.

Anna

like, I'm gonna do this. And then it's what, half an hour later. Yeah. And they have a 12 week personalized inverted

Phoebe

Exactly. Program. Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely understand that. some of the other feedback we got was. A really interesting point of disagreement, I think from the community is about who it's for. Because there are certainly some people that think it's perfect for beginners. Mm. And there are a lot of other people who think you need to have some experience to be able to use it well.

Anna

Yeah. And so why do you think people were thinking it's good for beginners?

Phoebe

So to quote someone, someone said, great for beginners helped me build a foundation and understand different sessions and paces. And it definitely does that. it, has a description of temporary, what does that mean? Like it does all that. And I also think if you've gone from nothing to something, it's a structure. Yeah. That's probably 10 times better than what you'd be doing if you had no idea.

Anna

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I also think why it is good for beginners is because it is so much cheaper. Yes. I feel like it's a great way for people to dip their toe in the water before they actually jump in. Totally. So to kind of suss out whether or not running and doing this is what they want. Yeah. And without having to be accountable or to answer to someone if they don't wanna do it in four weeks kind of thing. Totally.

Phoebe

Which is, it's probably the same for a lot of people are saying they just use chat GBT to do that or like any app. But runner obviously just I think because of how good user experiences and so on, it's done a better job at capturing those people are like, oh cool, let's give it out a go. Seeing what

Anna

Yeah. Program.

Phoebe

cause it's interesting that point of help me build a foundation, understand different sessions and paces. Like a coach would do that too,

Anna

Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe

But it's just lower stakes.

Anna

Yeah. And also maybe as well people. if it's all sort of explained and set out for you, it's great as a way to learn. But I feel like some people, they might be a bit embarrassed to acknowledge that they actually don't know what some of these sessions

Phoebe

dunno.

Anna

I even remember speaking with Ellie, my old coach and asking, I can't remember what it was, but asking her something.'cause I didn't really know what a word, I didn't actually know what she meant by it, but that even took, which is so silly, but like at the time, I kind of felt like I had to like build up the courage to actually ask,

Phoebe

Yeah.

Anna

sort of like embarrassed to admit that I didn't know what she was talking about. Yeah.

Phoebe

But I think that is a hundred percent a thing. And also just. people I think would be embarrassed to ask for a, I don't know, like there is an

Anna

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe

and it's just easier when, you know it's not a real person. Yeah. Um, it's not gonna judge you for your paces. Like, not that coaches do, but there is obviously the fear that they would. Yeah. and the other side of the fence though, did you read some of the comments from people who thought it was better for more experienced runners?

Anna

Yeah. Which I hadn't thought of that before, but I really agree. Well, I agreed with a lot of those comments. most of them were coming from the idea that you need to have a level of experience to be able to read a AI generated program. but then also take into account other like stresses in your life, how you're actually feeling on that day. And maybe so you do the run that it says, or you alter it accordingly. and they were kind of saying the beginner runners don't have the knowledge to be able to do that, so they'll just go ahead.

Phoebe

Yeah. do you, so do you think the idea there is that they think a coach would do that for you if you were more of a beginner runner? Like, I

Anna

so. Maybe they would. Yeah. But I think it is on a personal basis? Yeah. Like from person to person. I wouldn't matter if it was an AI program or a actual human. previously in my past life different. Now

Phoebe

I.

Anna

I, wouldn't have said that I am tired or whatever because I would've wanted to do the session. So I just feel like it's completely

Phoebe

peaceful person think. Yeah. I think no matter what, throughout your entire running life you'll always have to be learning how not to overdo it, how to listen to your body. that is a constant journey. Yeah. I don't think that's different with a coach or not. Maybe a coach could give you more tips around it, but like

Anna

but I feel like that's something that only you can really

Phoebe

be. Yeah, I, I think it comes more from a, there was a fear in people who don't use it that it would give you something that was way too hard or way too much and I can't speak to that'cause I don't know what it would give someone who put in that they didn't have any running experience. But I'm like, surely it just gives you similar to like a catch 5K program. I can't imagine that it would be

Anna

super. Yeah. Yeah. Someone I know uses runner and absolutely loves it. they've done a few half marathons. a bit of a beginner, but they just feel like the accountability of it makes them actually go for the run. So even just the accountability of the AI generated program, which is so, it's so crazy to think how our minds work.

Phoebe

Yeah, I know.

Anna

Um, but also gives Jim down the air Yeah, yeah. they just find it so helpful because they, it's just like this whole nother world that they are exposed to. Yeah. Whereas they're not, they wouldn't consider themselves a dedicated runner, so there is no way that they would ever look to getting A person to

Phoebe

a real coach Yeah. Yeah. I think that's bad. Not an artificial coach. Yeah. I think one of the points that I thought was good was someone was saying like, it took them a few good prompts to get the right plan. Mm-hmm. And I, that was definitely my experience. Again, I'll talk a little bit more soon about the program that it gave me, but I had to make a few adjustments.'cause when I first saw it, I was like, that's not right.

Anna

Yeah.

Phoebe

And that's the only thing with experience is like, you don't know to say that's not right unless you run for a bit and you're like, oh, that's, That

Anna

That seems silly.

Phoebe

Yeah. Um, and so I definitely think I. That there would definitely be an element of, the more experience you have running, the better you're gonna be able to respond to any plan you're given. Mm-hmm. Like a coach plan isn't gonna be perfect either. I think there's, it's probably always about learning to be able to balance what the program tells you with listening to your own

Anna

Yeah.

Phoebe

Let's talk about the quality of the actual program that

Anna

Yeah, yeah. So in comparison to the program that you get from your current coach, what was the difference in load? So how much you were

Phoebe

a leak

Anna

every week, and also how, um, hard you are running each week.

Phoebe

Yeah. So it gave me basically a 10 week program in the lead up to, I'm gonna do hopefully Gold Coast Half Marathon. Yeah. Haven't got a ticket yet, but I'll see if someone, someone in the community's trying to get rid of one, I would love to do it. And so it gave me a 10 week program and it basically built up from week one, it started me at 50 kilometers mm-hmm. In the week. And it built up to max 70 kilometers, peak, which was week seven. Yeah. And then kind of down to taper to the run, which, obviously at the moment I'm running like 80, 85 Ks a week. So my first thought was why did it not ask to plug into my training and get the details

Anna

Yeah. Or even just, I'm, I'm surprised it didn't ask your history for the past six weeks.

Phoebe

there's,

Anna

do you know

Phoebe

I mean, there are so many questions. That it didn't ask, that would've given it a much, much, much better program. I think what they're trying to do is just reduce barriers to starting. If you have to fill out a whole questionnaire, people are just gonna stop. And I'm guessing what it does is as you go, it learns and maybe it increases it. But then, so I went back into the settings and actually found the question about, how much load do you want? And I put it on Max, max, max amount.'cause I was interested to see. And even then, my longest week was 76 kilometers, which is still less than I'm running now. And the longest run was 21 Ks, I think. Yeah. Okay.

Anna

and how long would your longest run be, on your

Phoebe

uh, probably two hours. So probably maybe some would go just not, probably two hours for a half

Anna

So what, 24

Phoebe

let's say that, yeah. 24 Ks. So not a map. Actually, it's a pretty big difference. Like 21, 24, I'd be doing two hours every weekend. This has a lot of my long runs at like 16 Ks. Yeah. but the two biggest differences in the programs, the sessions that it gave me. Let's start with, the session that it gave me for Monday is five by one K at three minute, 40 pace within a 92nd rest, 2K warmup, and 1.8 k call down. And then Wednesday it told me to do 2K, 3 55, and then two by one K at three 40 fives.

Anna

And that's the whole

Phoebe

it for the whole week. So really small session. So for comparison, I would normally do maybe like six Ks of work once, and then maybe my second session would be more like eight or nine Ks of work. So this is significantly less. Also, it's given me paces that are, are a fair bit slower than I would usually

Anna

Yeah.

Phoebe

And it's very prescriptive with its paces. It doesn't give a range. It says, do

Anna

says do it. Yeah.

Phoebe

Which I automatically don't like, because I think that's gonna feel really different on different days. Yeah. But also I, I, can't understand how it's come up with these sessions. And maybe for me, this is the biggest difference. If I had a session that I don't understand, I ask Gary, what's the point of this session? And he'll explain it to me and I couldn't see on runner and ability to just ask, it has a little

Anna

the point of this session?

Phoebe

but I read the description. I was like, that makes no sense. Yeah. And

Anna

And yeah.

Phoebe

and then I look at, looked at the whole program stepping back and I was like. This is the randomest program ever. I don't understand. Some Mondays I'm doing tempos. Sometimes I'm doing session interval

Anna

Oh, so there's no consistency in the days that you

Phoebe

yeah, I mean, it, it tended to give me, I think more sessions on the Wednesdays this Saturday it gave me a progressive long run, so it got faster towards the end, and that was the only time in the whole program I had it. Every other long run is conversational pace. Yeah. It's just really confus. It's just a really random program.

Anna

I wonder if it's due to the day that you started it or something. Like, did you start it just this week and then it, and then maybe in its head it's like, oh, I've missed sessions for

Phoebe

this? No, it's, that was for this whole week and it ended with a progressive long run. It's just super random. and yeah, I, I feel like with Gary, I always know the purpose of a block. What am I trying to do in this block? What is the what? Outcome. Yeah. And this, I have no idea. Yeah. And it actually reminded me of how I see AI use AI quite a bit. at work or I see it at used and ai. it often sounds right until you read it, and you're like, oh, that's not, like, there's nothing really to that. There's not a lot of substance. So for example, when I'm marking job applications that are written by ai, read it first. You're like, oh, it sounds good. Then you're like, hang on you've literally said nothing.

Anna

I feel like it's kind of one of those like the, it's like good from far, but far from good. Like it kind of gets the gist. It

Phoebe

It gets the gist. But

Anna

Then actually when you think about it,

Phoebe

it was so weird. It's the weirdest program.

Anna

Yeah. But I guess that's literally in your work, but also these programs,

Phoebe

Mm. between

Anna

having a human Yeah. And someone that you can feed off conversationally and also their thought process is so different to, ai.

Phoebe

that's, that's the thing is it is for now and I think that, I genuinely think AI models for running training are gonna get 50 times better and they will probably be a lot better. Yeah. In literally six months time maybe. I don't know. I just think that this is so not there right now. It's fine. It's a program. You stick to it, you run it. Yeah. You would definitely get fitter. Yeah. It's in my mind, at least compared to what my coach gives me, it's quite conservative, but I'm more I don't know, runner's training philosophy. I don't know what it cares about. Yeah. You know, different coaches, real coaches, they have theories and they have hypotheses and they have their idea about what will help a different kind of runner. I just have no insight into what runner the app cares about it's got this kind of hodgepodge of random sessions

Anna

Yeah. In a way though, I feel like majority of the people that are probably using it don't really care for that.

Phoebe

Yeah. I completely agree. I think

Anna

and I wonder if you would, even if you didn't know that from being coached by Gary or being coached by a human,

Phoebe

you wouldn't,

Anna

you wouldn't, like, you don't really know what you're missing out

Phoebe

No. I would not have known a few years ago if I just, yeah. I would've been like, cool. It's a

Anna

Yeah.

Phoebe

And it isn't, until I've been coached by Gary for five years and I've asked him so many questions about what we're doing and why and so on that I, I didn't even realize till I saw this, that I have built up my own idea in my head Yeah. Of the purpose of different sessions. And I love going into a session and understanding the value of it and what I'm trying to do with it. And I don't. Know that. to be fair, runner tries to tell you this is what the session's for,

Anna

little, but yeah, I saw Bet they like,

Phoebe

so random.

Anna

And I will say though, in honors defense, I appreciate the, in comparison to your

Phoebe

program,

Anna

the moment, I think it's really good that it's, on the conservative side of that, it would be worrying if it, if it was, if it

Phoebe

was as if it was Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna

Because you, you, you run a lot and like, as we said, it doesn't ask the questions. It doesn't actually know Yeah. How much you run. And to think, like, imagine how dangerous it would be if it was telling people

Phoebe

Yeah. That

Anna

run a crazy amount just because they've put in their thing they're super Well,

Phoebe

I would've thought that when I put it up on Max, it at least tried to match what I was doing. Now, like, I don't know. I, I feel like the thing is if you go to a coach, plenty of coaches wouldn't give me the amount maybe that

Anna

was gonna say, I feel like your coach now. he does give a lot of volume.

Phoebe

Well, yeah, I mean, I'm definitely running a lot less now, even then historically. Yeah. So he, he definitely does the thing about I, and that is totally a personal preference thing'cause there are definitely people who don't wanna do that. I truly think I have gotten way better outcomes from working with Gary than I would from so many other coaches. And I I would never, ever, ever have believed I was capable of running a hundred kilometers a week until I was on a program that gradually built me up there. And then I was like. Oh, I'm doing it. Yeah.

Anna

And may, but maybe runner would do that if you got to know her, if, if it got to know you for two years,

Phoebe

reckon. I reckon if it got to know you, it would give you a lot more. I guess it just starts at really conservative and I think the whole thing is it starts you off low, builds you, builds you, builds you, and then you taper. Yeah. And so, I dunno what it would look like if you weren't trying to train for a race. Yeah. apparently it does the same with your paces. So now I said I thought the paces that it set me were much slower than I would, or slower than I would run now apparently the paces progress as you go, as well as the load,

Anna

Ah, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe

So there were a few comments from people in the community who used it that were frustrating saying the target prices progressed too fast for me. It switches its paces too much rather than letting me adjust to my schedule myself. Then other people really liked it. So it clearly does try and adjust it to your schedule. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. What are your thoughts on runner?

Anna

I think it's, I think it's great to an extent. I think it's accessible. it doesn't matter where you live, what you do, what you even do for work. even if you're a shift worker for instance, you're much less likely to be able to go to a run club and do those sorts of things. and I think it's great if people, they don't wanna pay for whatever reason, they don't wanna pay the$120 because previously before runner and ai, you either had a running coach

Phoebe

paid a lot

Anna

and paid an a pretty exorbitant amount of money. If you think about it, of what they're Yeah. For each month, particularly when a lot of the time, you're not even seeing them, or nothing. I think it's great that there's some form of middle ground and I feel like in so many people's situations, it can be really great. I do think there is the cons. quite prolific in a sense. And I mean, the end of the day, I, I was saying, know this is like a bit old school, but I feel like there's something so sad about the idea that something like running where we speak about a lot, that the connection that you gain with people is so special. I really think that the run and coach relationship can be really special. And I find it really sad that a computer is kind of overtaking that in a lot of ways. And I feel like there are so many aspects of life where you're losing human connection and it's just another one, infiltrated into the like running coaching space.

Phoebe

I, yeah. To just say something there.'cause that was probably one of my overarching thoughts when I was using the app is I feel like the reality is that people don't like, interacting with other

Anna

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's, it's isolating. Like you're not, I, I know there's these faux coaches. Yeah.

Phoebe

oh, they're ridiculous. it'll be like, ex-Co.

Anna

Yeah.

Phoebe

Says great work. I, I, it's silly, but it's not that because I kind of get it, like I said before, let's say the gym. I was looking for a gym that I could just, I would not need to meet a single person through. I could, as in, I wouldn't need to get an induction and get given a fob. I wanted something that I could literally download on my phone. Scan in

Anna

antisocial. No,

Phoebe

know. And

Anna

but No, a hundred percent. I

Phoebe

and like I probably should get a PT and pay for that, but I just wanna work up and do my own thing. Yeah. And so

Anna

you can't be bothered.

Phoebe

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I'd have a great relationship with my pt.

Anna

Yeah. Okay.

Phoebe

great friends. Maybe we'd be great friends. No, but I think that it's so true of this age that if we can avoid interacting with people, we do. And I don't always think that's good for us at all. I completely agree. I just think. People feel like it's more effort if it involves interacting with people. Yeah. Whereas the reality is, have you listened to much podcast from the Happiness Lab? No. So there's this, the Happiness Lab, I think it's run out of, Harvard University. There's this, the lead psychologist there, she's called Laurie Santos. She goes on all these podcasts. She's amazing. But one of the things she talks about a lot is one of the biggest drivers of happiness is random interactions with people. Mm-hmm. And it's this bizarre thing that for some reason, random interactions with people throughout the day have a massive impact on our perceptions of happiness. And what's really interesting about that is if you ask someone, they would say oh, I'd rather have my headphones in than like, be nodding and smiling to

Anna

or even if you observe people all, all the

Phoebe

So like, we're, we're actually really bad at knowing what makes us. happy. and feel good. Yeah. And I feel like this is kind of just another symptom to that, in terms of not wanting to interact with a coach. Mm. Actually probably that those

Anna

is exactly what you really rewarding. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's one of the things I miss about not having. I mean, maybe it's a little bit of a like self-absorbed kind of thing, in a sense, well,'cause it is in a sense,'cause you're talking about we only would talk about what I'm

Phoebe

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna

and not so much stroking your ego, but is is very like self-interested.

Phoebe

This is another thing though. So many people said they love to have positive runner because runner gives you a lot of feedback and it's super positive and it really hypes you up. I was watching my friend use it, or she was showing me the conversation she was having, being like, oh, I really struggled in this part of that run. And it was like, totally understand. I understand that part of the run got really hard, but what's amazing is you kept strong. I can see you are working hard here, but you push through, you finish really well.

Anna

is that true? Was

Phoebe

she Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh, it's really good'cause it has all the data from your run. Like it's not that hard to look at that. I'm like, I never have conversations with my coach like that. However,

Anna

Yeah, that was shit.

Phoebe

Well, AI never tells you no.

Anna

Yeah, it doesn't. Does it

Phoebe

love, my coach will call me out if I'm being lazy or if he thinks I am stopping too much in my long runs. And he'll have a hard conversation with me about it and be like, if you wanna get better, you actually can't keep doing this, or you're going way too slow in your long runs for a period of time. He really wanted me to go faster in my long run. he will have that hard conversation with me. Mm-hmm. And I just don't think, I mean, not everyone wants that, so that is totally fair. Yeah. I completely understand why you wouldn't want that, but I think that's an amazing thing about a relationship with a coach who cares about you, is that they should push you and they should be able to say

Anna

and should challenge you.

Phoebe

that's actually wrong. Like, don't do that. I don't know. I just don't think you're gonna get that from ai.

Anna

No, no. Yeah.

Phoebe

not yet. At least. oh actually I wanna say about the strength program it gives you, it is the Randomest strength program. Oh, really? I've ever seen, it's so weird. It's 50 different exercises. A lot of the, it's, it's really well set up again, the user experience. You can see the exercise you're meant

Anna

I was gonna say, I've looked and you can,

Phoebe

yeah, it's, again, when I look at what I'm doing, I'm like, what am I working on here? Yeah. But strength program would be the exact same as a running program. go see a pt, that's what I should be doing. Who can look at your weaknesses, look at your injury history, and make a plan

Anna

But also, or I know that you don't have a pt, but you've been to the physio. You know what?

Phoebe

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna

yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I I'm assuming it doesn't ask you what, what's your, injury

Phoebe

history. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I generally think, I completely agree with you. it's so much better than nothing. And it's, it fills this gap, which is a massive gap of amateur runners who do not wanna pay an expensive amount for a coach. But do want a program and they want something consistent and they want something to interact with and engage with.

Anna

and they, they wanna do the fun run or race in however long, and they want some guidance and also a sense of

Phoebe

accountability. Yeah. So I if you want that with the warning, which I would also give if you were having a coach, which is that you still need to listen to your body. You still need to be able to push back on things and do your own learning and reading. I think it, is really good for that. I think if you have a good coach, you're gonna get better outcomes than you get out

Anna

Yeah.

Phoebe

Yeah. The best comparison is looking at this program compared to what my coach is going to give me and has given me in the lead up to Gold Coast. Half, I'll run a better time off what my coach has given me. I just have no doubt in my mind like

Anna

which one are you more likely to get injured following?

Phoebe

Oh, I mean, I'm running a lot less with runner. Mm.

Anna

Mm.

Phoebe

I don't think that running less in and of itself is what stops you getting

Anna

No, but even, I mean, running less, but also, I guess the

Phoebe

actually don't know because the intensity less, but I also would say, there's a much bigger curve in runner. it goes from 50 to 70 something within six weeks and then back down, and there's a down week in there. Whereas because my current program has just come the same the

Anna

Mm. Yeah.

Phoebe

it'll grow a little bit, but it's really similar. So

Anna

I guess maybe as well in a sense that it's a bit warped because it doesn't know you and like, hasn't had, doesn't, do you know what I mean? Doesn't have the like, history. I,

Phoebe

I, I'm really not convinced. That runner would get you less injured? in my specific situation, because I have a program that with high load, like maybe, but I generally think I get injured when I run through sicknesses. Mm-hmm. Not because of

Anna

because, yeah.

Phoebe

And I also think, I got injured all the time when I didn't have a program as well. I just think injury, it all comes down to listening to your body. I actually think running consistently is really good for injury prevention. so I don't know if it's more, more or less likely. but it's much cheaper.

Anna

Yeah. And yeah,

Phoebe

it's, a much easier experience. Like it literally pushes the run onto your watch, which tells you what to do. also actually the fact that it has prescribed paces I really don't like, and I don't think that's good for

Anna

Yeah. I think there should be a range.'cause as we've spoken about on the podcast before, one day, whatever piece. Can feel very different to that pace the next day or three days prior.

Phoebe

I think right now the quality of the program is lower. No doubt in my

Anna

mind. Mm.

Phoebe

I think AI will learn and be able to produce in not that long, really good

Anna

Yeah. I think it's only a matter of time considering that how it is good. Like it's pretty, it's pretty impressive.

Phoebe

I, I, I think the future of this, if I was to have a guess, would be that, I think 90% of these people who are using runner never would've used a coach anyway. So I don't actually think they're cannibalizing that market particularly. I think a lot of running coach companies are probably frustrated because they feel like it's taking their potential customers, but I actually think these people just aren't interested in paying that amount. I think the future of running coaches is if you're a coach, you can have a really good relationship and build trust with your athletes, then they're never gonna wanna use AI'cause it, it's gonna become about the relationship that you have.

Anna

Maybe we'll actually just weed out the poor coaches

Phoebe

I definitely think so, because

Anna

because then, because they'll think, oh well I can get this anyway. Yeah. Much cheaper. Or as you're saying, if you have that

Phoebe

special relationship with someone Exactly.

Anna

and you really trust them, then you're obviously not going to swap

Phoebe

that. And Yeah, I think good coaches who are in tune with their athletes and who have years of experience and are great at pattern matching and so on and so forth, people are always gonna have a great experience with them and not unless they don't wanna spend the money are not gonna come back down to this. But I completely agree. I think average coaches, people are just gonna move to this. Yeah. Like that's the reality of it. And that's.

Anna

deserved.

Phoebe

but really keen to hear if you've listened along, if you use Run, if you don't, shoot us a message. DM us on Instagram. Tell us your thoughts. Yeah, we'd love to know more. Love to know if you agree with our takes here. And keen to like keep following along the journey with Runner in terms of how it keeps adjusting its AI models. Yeah,

Anna

Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited also, excited to see what Strava and runner are gonna do together.

Phoebe

Um, but really keen All right. There's something else we wanted to talk about this episode.

Anna

Yes. You have been trialing and you supplement, I believe.

Phoebe

Mm-hmm. I'm, it's actually something we did an episode on a couple months ago on, which is creatine.

Anna

Go back and listen if you haven't.

Phoebe

Yes, it

Anna

if I say so myself,

Phoebe

It is a great app. We learned a lot and we've received a lot of questions. From people about how, been going, how we use it, or how I use it, I should say.'cause you haven't been

Anna

I am not using it.

Phoebe

so I've been taking it consistently for, I don't know, two months now. And I got advised by my diet, by dietician. Yeah. and when you don't eat meat, you actually aren't even getting enough creatine in the first place. And also, for runners, there's a lot of reasons why, particularly from a recovery and strength perspective. Yeah. it is really strong of your performance. Yeah. There's a lot of research to back that up. We can link the resource we've linked before, which is from the Australian Institute of Sport, where they have a supplement framework and they kind of talk through all the benefits of creatine.

Anna

Maybe we'll also link our episode.'cause it actually, it was an interesting chat and yet we just go a little bit deeper into what Creatin is and why the research is saying that you should be using it for performance and running. so what are you using at the moment and how are you actually taking it?

Phoebe

Well, I take one scoop a day. which is three to five milligrams. I, I normally do it straight after my run. Try and have protein as well as creatine

Anna

in the same shake.

Phoebe

Yeah, it's, it's flavorless. It's totally flavorless. Also so very kindly pillar, which a lot of you will have had us talk about pillar before they've sponsored the pod. bunch of times once they heard that we did this, episode and that I was gonna be trying, creatine, they sent us some to try. So I've been using pill. it's creatine monohydrate, which is what we said in the episode, is the one that you need to be taking. Yeah. They also, their kind of point of difference, I suppose, is that they use CRE Pure. Mm-hmm. Which is basically the purest form of creatine monohydrate available. Yeah. And they have gone through every single safety check, performance check. this is the gold standard. It's also vegan, which I really like. essentially I just take a scoop of that every day. so Pillar is sponsoring the next couple of episodes and I wanted to Talk about some of the impacts I've noticed through taking creatine. Today I am gonna talk about the impact I've noticed on my recovery and my

Anna

Oh,

Phoebe

So this is super interesting'cause Liz will know I have an aura ring, which tracks my sleep really closely. And one of the data points I am most, most, most interested in is how far throughout the night my resting heart rate lowers. Yeah. So as we spoke about previously, there's this amazing data point, which is the low, when your heart rate reaches its lowest point in the night, essentially when it stabilizes, that's basically when you move from the first half of your sleep, which is more focused on deep sleep and physical recovery into re sleep and mental recovery. Yeah. And so if it, lowers later throughout the night, then it means it's taking your body a long time to

Anna

To recover.

Phoebe

And I have had periods where it has taken my body all night to recover

Anna

in the morning. It's still not there.

Phoebe

And I was marathon training and, and anemic. My, recovery has been noticeably improving like almost every night. It's in the first half of the night. Really? Which is so interesting. Like, I dunno if it's my iron, the fact that my iron's higher, like I actually can't completely dissociate these two.'cause I started at the same time. But it is one of the biggest differences in my data is how much better I've been recovering. Yeah. And this is one of the biggest, impacts of creatine for runners is how much it helps your muscle recovery. Mm-hmm. So I'm definitely, I would keep doing it purely based off that, of that, that is like such an important data point for

Anna

for me. That is so

Phoebe

Yeah. It's really cool. Yeah.

Anna

mean, we, you spoke about it at the start of the episode about one of the highlights being of the last few weeks is just that you're feeling better running. Like who knows?

Phoebe

A hundred percent. I'm gonna keep telling over the next couple weeks the other things that I've noticed, small to big things that I've noticed since taking it consistently. But, couldn't recommend it more Highly Jump on the pillow website. if you wanna have a check it out and thank you Pillow.

Anna

Yeah. Thank you very much to Pillar performance for making this episode of Cheeky Possible. Yay.

Phoebe

And thank you for listening

Anna

And thank you for listening. And thank you for being here on this couch with me. Thank you. It feels

Phoebe

so good to be back.

Anna

good to be back. Yay. Hooray.

Phoebe

Hooray. I bet that's what all listeners are thinking. Hooray. They're back. We're sorry we left you for so long.

Anna

and on that note,

Phoebe

If you have a friend who uses runner or has strong opinions on runner, please share it with them as well, because we really wanna get feedback and thoughts. otherwise we can't wait

Anna

to be in your

Phoebe

ears next week.

Anna

Ah,

Phoebe

Bye.

Anna

bye.

Phoebe

Sorry, Kiara. It's really

Anna

people on the internet just wanna play dead fish.

Phoebe

Yeah. What does that mean?

Anna

It's that game that you play in primary school. It's pretty much when the teachers wanna break and they say, all right, let's play dead fish. And everyone

Phoebe

Oh, sleeping lions

Anna

What

Phoebe

Sleeping lions?

Anna

is that, what it's called in Queensland? Sleeping lions.

Phoebe

in like a, you know, um,

Anna

that's kind of cuter than

Phoebe

year eight birthday. Oh no, no. Year

Anna

Oh,

Phoebe

8-year-old.

Anna

my 21st birthday body.