Meet your heroes 2.0: Grace Tame

Good morning Cheeky community!

 We’ve got another great interview for you this week… We had the pleasure of sitting down with elite runner, former Australian of the year, and our friend, Grace Tame.

We spoke to Grace about her second-place finish at the Great Ocean Road 60km ultramarathon last weekend and how running has impacted her life.

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Music produced by Hugh Raper & logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

Transcript

anna outro 0:00

Cheeky Run Club recognizes that every day we live, work, and run on Aboriginal land.

phoebe outro 0:06

This episode of Cheeky Run Club is brought to you by Pillar Performance and their new creatine supplement.

anna outro 0:11

Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello, Phoebe.

phoebe outro 0:22

Hello, Anna.

anna outro 0:22

and hello listeners.

phoebe outro 0:25

We've had a lot of pinch me moments on this podcast, but recording this episode was really something special, cheeky friends. will recall, in one of our first episodes, we awarded the weekly weapon title to someone who'd written an article about running that really inspired us and that person was Grace Tame.

anna outro 0:43

Since then, we were lucky enough to connect with her, start running with her, and are very proud to now call her her friend. And as of today, a guest of the show. Grace is an Australian of the Year elite runner, avid writer. Force of nature and a national treasure. And today we sit down to debrief her second place finish in the Great Ocean Road, 60 kilometer ultra marathon Last weekend,

phoebe outro 1:06

We actually end up chatting about all the races she's done so far this year, how she stays grounded through running what she's learned about herself through running and so much more. Can't wait for you to listen, but first, as always, we'll kick it off with our notable runs of the week. Anna, tell me about your worst run of the week.

anna intro 1:28

Ooh, this is tough.

phoebe intro 1:30

Well, as in,'cause you have many to pick from or

anna intro 1:32

no. Gosh, no.

phoebe intro 1:36

Never. This is

anna intro 1:36

because I never have anything

phoebe intro 1:38

was always scraping the bottom of the barrel to find the worst run. no.

anna intro 1:42

My worst run. Was the aftermath of a run I did last weekend. Okay. And funnily enough, haven't been running much. Ah, still gets injured. My hip is just a bit sore, I think a few days off and I'll be good to go again. But it took me back to last year where I spent a lot of the year in

phoebe intro 2:04

in pain

anna intro 2:05

and I thought, oh, this isn't that nice.

phoebe intro 2:08

Yeah. It took you back to all the other times you've been to Sydney and returned

anna intro 2:12

with, yeah, so

phoebe intro 2:13

you and Sydney,

anna intro 2:14

I'm just gonna say. this is the third time I've been to Sydney and returned injured. I'm hoping this one isn't as long term or as chronic as the others. Yeah. The last one, it was the start of the end for me with my hammy, and then actually three years before that I hurt my other hammy when I was up there visiting my brother.

phoebe intro 2:37

Yeah. It has a bad track record. I do. Do you actually think there is something to do with like, you're out of your normal routine, you're running on a different surface.

anna intro 2:46

I feel like. The plane position for me. I reckon I'm

phoebe intro 2:49

yeah,

anna intro 2:51

so fragile.

phoebe intro 2:52

You need to do what? I'm gonna absolutely out our friend Izzy right now, but our friend she's flying overseas. Will, how should I say this? Yeah. we'll show a letter from a doctor basically saying she needs to get extra leg room because she's had chronic hamstring issues. Which is true. Yeah. But she's also about five foot tall

anna intro 3:16

I took a leaf out of her book when I When went to Europe last year?'cause Miami, he was already a bit

phoebe intro 3:21

oh yeah.

anna intro 3:22

But then I got to the airport. And I chickened out. I just, did you? Yeah. Because if they ask me another question, I'd just be like, oh no. Well, I'm fine because I am

phoebe intro 3:31

But you weren't, you had a hamstring issue.

anna intro 3:33

Yeah, but it wasn't that, I mean, it, it, got bad after that long haul flight. Oh my God. Yeah.

phoebe intro 3:39

You should have done

anna intro 3:40

I know. I should have. I should have. You know what? It's natural selection. Yeah. Our, our friend is just a lot smarter than I'm, he's

phoebe intro 3:49

she

anna intro 3:49

actually, um, what about your worst run or running related activity?

phoebe intro 3:53

Oh, my worst run. Well, actually the good news is my worst round wasn't the race. Woo-hoo. Which some will remember my goal from last week was not to have my little 5K race that I do on the weekend as my worst run of the week. And it wasn't. but my worst run was on Monday morning. those listeners, um, unfortunate enough to live in the city of Melbourne, will know that on Monday morning it was absolutely freezing. It was zero degrees, it was apparent temperature, negative two degrees. It was so cold, and I actually don't have great. Really cold weather, running gear. So I don't have long tights and I sort of just wore shorts and a long sleeve shirt like we often run in and I I did know it was gonna be cold, so I wore a t-shirt over the top, like a cotton t-shirt over the top of my long sleeve shirt. Which shock? this is such a, I feel like

anna intro 4:45

weird that you weren't warm enough.

phoebe intro 4:47

I know. I feel like growing up on the Gold Coast, you actually don't learn what materials are warm versus not. I always forget cotton isn't really gonna do much. Anyway, so it was really, really cold on Monday morning and I could not warm up and you know, when you're running and you feel like you're a block of ice. Yeah. And I couldn't, I. I like touched my skin and my legs and it was icy cold and I just couldn't walk and so I felt terrible. the

anna intro 5:11

whole time. Yeah. Yeah. Fair

phoebe intro 5:13

that's easily my

anna intro 5:14

one. Worst. Yeah. Well, good that you had an easy one.

phoebe intro 5:16

Yeah. Yes. And what was

anna intro 5:18

and happy that it wasn't the race.

phoebe intro 5:20

Yeah, true. What was your best run?

anna intro 5:22

Mine was joint. I know that's allowed. We make the rules. Um, I did a Pilates class at kx. On Friday morning.

phoebe intro 5:33

Oh, a reformer?

anna intro 5:33

Yes, 6:00 AM.

phoebe intro 5:34

up If you know. Wow. Look at you.

anna intro 5:38

no, I'm joking. It wasn't 6:00 AM

phoebe intro 5:39

What time was it?

anna intro 5:40

it? Oh, like later.

phoebe intro 5:42

actually, I just trying to impress everyone.

anna intro 5:46

Um,

phoebe intro 5:46

6:00 AM I'm a Pilates girl. Getting up at 6:00 AM

anna intro 5:50

it was, I did the intermediate class and it was so good. It was really, really hard. Sometimes I go to Pilates and the thing that I. Don't like about it is that I just feel like I walk out and I'm still a bit

phoebe intro 6:04

sleepy kind thing. Yes,

anna intro 6:05

this was really my muscles, even now I can feel them. and the instructor was so nice. I wish I remembered her name. but she was just made me feel so comfortable. I felt really, really good for the rest of the day. Anyway, my this is probably my favorite run. I met up with our friend Claire in Sydney, our Spanish correspondence, older sister

phoebe intro 6:27

Yep.

anna intro 6:28

and her. Dave and I went for a run. Just, from Bondi to Bronte and back and finished off with a swim.

phoebe intro 6:36

and then you went

anna intro 6:37

and met some other friends for brunch. And it was just idyllic.

phoebe intro 6:42

That is so nice. Yeah, it was a nice morning.

anna intro 6:45

Saturday morning was really nice. Yeah.

phoebe intro 6:48

on today's show, we sit down with none other than Grace team. Yes, the Grace team to get a race debrief on her second place finish in the greatest Road 60 K Ultramarathon.

phoebe and anna interview 6:59

Hello, grace. Hi. Nice smooth.

grace interview 7:04

I'm finally here. Finally.

phoebe and anna interview 7:06

Finally here. Yes, we have been trying to get Grace on the pod for many a month, but so let's say since we started the pod Yeah, that's true. Our

grace interview 7:14

I was introduced to you guys was someone sent me, a part of the podcast where you were reading.

phoebe and anna interview 7:19

we went as far as reading one of your articles on the pod.

grace interview 7:23

I know. And I was like watching. It was very meta.

phoebe and anna interview 7:27

Yeah, I know. Well that's a little bit embarrassing looking back. I think there's 10 minutes of that episode is us just reading quotes and then being like, wow, that's so good. How did she write like that? She write that. but the reason we've got you on today is to have a bit of a debrief because you had a race on the weekend.

grace interview 7:45

did yesterday,

phoebe and anna interview 7:46

Yesterday? Yeah. Wow. On the weekend. It's been a big Monday, clearly. and it was the 60 kilometer grad Ocean Road Ultra Marathon. Correct. And he came second? Yes. And got a big pv. Yeah.

phoebe & anna interview vid 7:59

Yeah.

grace interview 8:00

Yeah. 10 minutes faster than last year. I was pretty

phoebe and anna interview 8:02

stoked. 10 minutes. That's a long time to take off a race. Yeah.

grace interview 8:06

Yeah. Yeah.

phoebe and anna interview 8:07

Okay. Well we are gonna unpack every single step of that race, but before we do, we thought we'd ask a few questions about the lead up to the race. I know you've been pretty busy this year. It's not your first race this year, in fact. How many races have you done this year?

grace interview 8:20

Well, oh, let me see. I, I did a shocker of a 10 K, in January after I was really sick over New Year's.

phoebe and anna interview 8:29

Oh, really? Was terrible. That doesn't really

grace interview 8:31

really count. It was the, it was the ca the Cadbury 10 K. And the, the real motivation for doing that race in, in Hobart is that you, you do it at the Cadbury factory and they give you chocolate at

phoebe and anna interview 8:39

end. You get, do you get a whole block?

grace interview 8:41

get the chocolates? No, you get like little bits. Little

phoebe and anna interview 8:43

Little bits and bobs,

grace interview 8:44

there's

phoebe and anna interview 8:44

heaps. What about if you win?

grace interview 8:46

I'm not sure, actually there's a good question. 10

phoebe and anna interview 8:48

block.

grace interview 8:49

Yeah. The factory. You win the factory,

phoebe & anna interview vid 8:53

A piece.

grace interview 8:54

it's the golden ticket.

phoebe and anna interview 8:56

that's what I'm

grace interview 8:57

no.

phoebe and anna interview 8:58

Oh,

grace interview 8:59

then after that I I redeemed myself. in Southern California in Huntington Beach, which is just south of Los Angeles. I did a half marathon and got my second fastest half marathon time, in, in the one 20 threes and the last time I ran a 1 23 half was in 2020. So I was pretty

phoebe and anna interview 9:15

sure. Oh wow, nice.

grace interview 9:16

that. Oh, Yeah. Yeah. It was about, it was almost five years to the day between those races. and then I went over to Africa to meet my cousin Millie, who was working for the UN in Zimbabwe and she wanted to run her f first marathon and she picked Kilimanjaro marathon of all marathons to do as number one. So there was that, and that was pretty epic. and totally unpredictable too because it was completely different race on, on paper to what it was in reality. And you know, you only find that out when you're actually on course

phoebe and anna interview 9:47

Was it a road, a road marathon or? It's

grace interview 9:50

to be a road

phoebe and anna interview 9:51

marathon.

grace interview 9:51

And, and it says on the website that there are two Ks of dirt, between K eight and 10. So, and the first 10 Ks is all uphill. There's not a, not, not, not any flat bits, just straight uphill for 10 Ks. I think you do nearly 400 meters of climbing in, in 10 Ks. there's a total of 600 and something meters of elevation in the whole 42.2. Um, and it's around the base of Kilimanjaro. So it's at altitude, I think it's 1200 feet or something. Wow. but yeah, we got to the top of that, that 10, that first 10 K and think, and I was thinking, oh, well, the dirt's behind us and the, the rough hill. Yeah. And then the next 10 Ks is all downhill, so you make up a little bit of time. But at the bottom of the hill, we turned right onto this. Unsealed, Rocky Dirt Road, not even like a fire trail, a full on dirt road with big chunky rocks. And

phoebe and anna interview 10:45

they're like, it's still a road. Yeah,

grace interview 10:47

in the road. And they were like, but it was so great too, just to be amongst, a completely different culture. But everyone is obviously connected by the love of the shared love of running

phoebe and anna interview 10:56

Yeah.

grace interview 10:56

and that, that struggle. But there were like farmers on the side of the road, like waterboarding people with hoses. And I was like, how generous of you to spend your precious water on US runners, you know, probably, you know, getting in the way of your work. But yeah, no, that was an epic run. And I was thinking of, because I've at least run a few marathons before, and I was thinking of my cousin Millie out there,

phoebe and anna interview 11:18

how did she go?

grace interview 11:19

oh, this poor thing she's gonna, this is her first impression of a marathon. But yeah, we turned onto this dirt road and that dirt road went for almost the rest of the race.

phoebe and anna interview 11:27

race. Oh my gosh.

grace interview 11:29

the next 2020 Ks. So

phoebe and anna interview 11:31

Okay. So not ads advertised

grace interview 11:33

No,

phoebe and anna interview 11:34

Okay.

grace interview 11:35

no, no. There were 22 Ks of dirt in that

phoebe and anna interview 11:38

they got it right with the two.

grace interview 11:40

yeah, yeah. It was, it was a typo significantly. and then what else? Oh gosh. Oh, and then I was very cheeky and the following weekend I did a, what was supposed to be a 5K race, in Zimbabwe. When we finally

phoebe and anna interview 11:54

got there. Yeah.

grace interview 11:55

after being in Tanzania, I just was like, oh, I've gotta run, you know, I've gotta do a race in Zimbabwe.'cause while I'm here and there just happened to be a 5K race, like down the road from where my cousin was living. so we went, but the course was actually 6.2 Ks. And

phoebe and anna interview 12:08

wow. So

grace interview 12:09

you know, you know when you go out and you're like, I've got this much energy to spend over this distance. And I went balls to the wall. And it was cross country too. It's, it said it was a road race, but it was started in a muddy soccer field. And we ran through the grass and then there was like this. Almost like ravine that we had to cross. And I'd worn alpha flies'cause I was like, oh yeah, it's a 5K, I'm just gonna sprint and jumping over mud paddles and

phoebe and anna interview 12:35

you got to five Ks and you're like,

grace interview 12:36

yeah. And then it kept going and I was like, oh, it got to five Ks and'cause it was a, loop. Got to five Ks and I was like,

phoebe and anna interview 12:41

isn't the

grace interview 12:42

the end. We're not in the muddy stadium. And there was an extra 1.2 Ks or something.

phoebe and anna interview 12:48

my God. That would be honestly heartbreaking. Like, I can't imagine being,

grace interview 12:53

it was hot. It was heartbreaking'cause it was so hot. Yeah, really humid.

phoebe and anna interview 12:57

another, another K on a fight. that's an extra 20%. Like that you don't budget for that when you

grace interview 13:03

Yeah, it was, it was not it. but it was really good fun. I mean, I didn't even register for it and I just managed to run in it and came

phoebe and anna interview 13:10

That is amazing. Oh, amazing.

grace interview 13:11

I was like, oh,

phoebe and anna interview 13:12

how many people were doing it?

grace interview 13:13

Oh, quite a few. It was a, it was a decent turnout. Yeah.

phoebe and anna interview 13:16

so cool. Just a community 5K.

grace interview 13:19

were like, they were like, who are you? Where do you come from? little tiny white girl who doesn't have a number, who's just running amongst us. But yeah, no, that was great fun. I've done, I did another 10 K in Hobart. you can't see him, but my dad is off watching, um,

phoebe and anna interview 13:36

for this episode, producer Michael.

grace interview 13:39

he's become the chief, crew member for my braces, particularly the longer ones.

phoebe and anna interview 13:45

Yeah. Yeah.

grace interview 13:46

yeah, I

phoebe and anna interview 13:46

big job.

grace interview 13:46

job. It yeah.

phoebe and anna interview 13:48

takes it very seriously.

grace interview 13:49

Yeah, it's un I is pretending to sleep and snore, um, which I is more offensive. but, yeah, it was a 10 K race, a local 10 K race, and Hobart is notoriously hilly. so the Hobart Marathon Festival has. All the typical distances like your 5K, 10 k, half marathon, and a marathon. And it's a really cruel course. It's got some, some of the worst hills in it, especially the half marathon and the, and the marathon. but the 10 K as well has some pretty gnarly hills. I think it's, it's over a hundred meters of elevation in, in that 10 K. So, it's always a good fitness test, you know?

phoebe and anna interview 14:22

I bet.

grace interview 14:23

so I did that and then did Ballarat half

phoebe and anna interview 14:27

and, oh yeah. How was that?

grace interview 14:29

that was a nightmare of it.

phoebe and anna interview 14:30

Oh no.

grace interview 14:30

a, the, the, the events leading up to it were farcically bad.

phoebe and anna interview 14:35

why, in what sense? What you, you're missing? Oh, do you? You're missing a half.

grace interview 14:39

What? Missing one. Oh,

phoebe and anna interview 14:40

one. Oh, I'm Nike.

grace interview 14:42

Oh yeah.

phoebe and anna interview 14:42

After dark.

grace interview 14:43

that didn't even count either.'cause it was 21 and every, every runner is like. No,

phoebe and anna interview 14:48

you can't do that to me

grace interview 14:50

I had to keep running at the end because I wanted to get a half, and then, and then I gave up.'cause like there were too many

phoebe and anna interview 14:55

many people.

grace interview 14:56

around and I was just like, I was this weirdo, like running around on the grass and everyone was like, what are you doing? And I was like,

phoebe and anna interview 15:02

So you're not, we're

grace interview 15:02

21.1

phoebe & anna interview vid 15:03

Yeah. That

phoebe and anna interview 15:04

doesn't count as a race. It count.

grace interview 15:06

it was an, it was an event. It was more like a music festival. It it was great though, and what it symbolized and Oh yeah. You know, bringing, bringing all these women together and doing it at night in, in places that are typically unsafe. And yeah, that was really cool.

phoebe and anna interview 15:20

That was very cool.

grace interview 15:21

and for about 10 seconds, I was toe to toe with, Sinead Diver,

phoebe and anna interview 15:27

Were you, wow.

grace interview 15:27

uh, women's

phoebe and anna interview 15:28

Tell us, what did that feel like?

grace interview 15:30

was so, you know, was. Just it was great. And, then she ran

phoebe and anna interview 15:34

You like

grace interview 15:35

that

phoebe and anna interview 15:35

ran up into the distance,

grace interview 15:37

Yeah. Person.

phoebe and anna interview 15:37

sunset.

grace interview 15:38

Yep.

phoebe and anna interview 15:38

Doesn't matter.

grace interview 15:39

She disappeared.

phoebe and anna interview 15:40

Yeah. And then, was there a quick turnaround between that and Ballarat? I feel like Ballarat was only a few weeks later.

grace interview 15:46

Yeah. Ballarat was two weeks later. I was hoping to run a PB but I, I abandoned that. essentially when I arrived there because it was just a series of unfortunate events that led up to the race. really poor sleep. Even before getting to Ballarat, um, cause I'd had this vicious deadline. That kept me up until midnight, two nights before, and I was sleeping on someone's futon. And I got to Ballarat on the Friday night, the race was on the Sunday, on the Friday night, I could only get lodgings in a motel'cause it's quite a small town. And the turnout was

phoebe and anna interview 16:19

It books out. There was so many

grace interview 16:20

was like, so over 7,000 people. And so there was very limited accommodation. I found a motel. I, I'm a very low maintenance individual, so I just need so long as I can, be self-sufficient. You know, if there's like a kettle and a microwave and that's fine. You know, and a bed and some amenities like, you know, a shower, But there was like a bucks party in the room directly next to mine, and the walls were paper thin. I'm talking like paper thin. There may as well have been no walks because I could hear everything that they were saying and they were watching a, a footy game or something as well, and they were all yelping and there was all this banter and they were stirring each other and there was clearly grogg involved. Yeah. And it was amplifying the whole thing. And I was like, oh no.

phoebe and anna interview 17:00

Yeah.

grace interview 17:00

Yeah.

phoebe and anna interview 17:01

How do you deal with that? imperfect race prep before a race? what do you tell yourself when that's happening? How do you not spiral and think like, oh my gosh, this is gonna be terrible. I'm gonna be exhausted.

grace interview 17:11

Well, you, it's already zapping energy from you and it, look, it's easier said than done, but rather than. Zap even more energy through giving into your frustration. You just try to control the controllables. Yeah. And I just will like busy myself and try to Distract myself from the externalities that are impacting Yeah. My preparation. I try to actually create situations where that can't even happen. But, you know, that was a sort of a one off, I suppose, an outlier.

phoebe and anna interview 17:42

So obviously you're doing a heap of races, from January to May, but then you've got the Great Ocean Road. Ultra, which is 60 Ks. How did you work in your training with all those other races? Did you just train through them?'cause obviously it's like a lot different.

grace interview 17:57

Very different. I, this first half of the year I've done less, volume actually. and more quality. so more speed sessions cause I've already got quite a big aerobic tank. I know that from having done I Bruny and Great Ocean Road last year and. Kilimanjaro and, just lots of long runs. Mm. And I really wanted to focus on, on improving my speed, which I think I have a little bit. but I don't think that my race schedule this year, which is one thing on paper and another thing in reality. Mm. Yeah. I don't think it was necessarily conducive to consistent training for a particular distance. Yeah. Yeah. But I really just wanted to, get a few more races under my belt.'cause now I have got to the point, which is where I wanted to get to, which is that I don't get so overwhelmingly anxious and freaking out,

phoebe and anna interview 18:52

out, freaking out

grace interview 18:53

out about a race. Like now I can turn up to a race and I'm like, all right, let's

phoebe and anna interview 18:56

yeah.

grace interview 18:57

Yeah. Yeah. because. it's getting race fit. That was sort of more the goal.

phoebe and anna interview 19:02

Oh yeah.

grace interview 19:02

And to do adventures, you know, like a lot of the, like Kilimanjaro was not a PB marathon, but it was for the experience.

phoebe and anna interview 19:11

And you would've learn something from every single one of those races. hundred

grace interview 19:14

A hundred

phoebe and anna interview 19:14

I'm sure there'd be takeaways and growth every single time. I'm interested like having, you've run races in so many different countries, cities, not just this year, but over your life. what do you notice that's consistent? Is there anything that's just the same no matter where you rock up to a race, you always notice or feel the same things?

grace interview 19:33

The camaraderie, the positive energy, it's universal and that's, I think one of the key reasons that I love running is that I'm guaranteed wherever I go. I know that, I've got the best mode of transport, which is on foot, and you're able to absorb everything at a, at a reasonable pace, because, you know, if you cycle, sometimes you go too fast and you get in that, you know, zone, you're very worried as well about, you know, traffic and things like that. and if you're in a car, it's really easy to just, look at your phone or, or be distracted talking to other people in the car or whatever. So there's that no matter where you go, running is always the best way to see a place. Yeah. But number one is the camaraderie. you know, and, is its own language. So any language barrier that that exists sort of is, doesn't matter, is just steamrolled by this, experience of, of shared suffering, I suppose. You know, and the solidarity that comes from that. You get bonded in that, in that unique experience. And then afterwards you can sort of reflect on, on the journey that you just made together. And it sounds trite, but it really is like the people that I met yesterday, that then find you later on Strava and you, cause

phoebe and anna interview 20:39

yeah, you become buddies,

grace interview 20:41

especially a big, yeah, especially a big race like that you go through, you know, because everyone has different approaches to running and you can be as mathematical and scientific as you want with your strategy and your splits and things. But especially a, an undulating and, mixed bag of a course, like Great Ocean Road. It's very hard to stick to those strategies. And there are also other things on the day that you can't prepare for, like headwinds and rain and something going wrong with your fueling or whatever it is. And so you end up Going through these different phases as an individual, but in those different phases, as an individual that you're going through, you encounter other people going through their

phoebe and anna interview 21:18

at the

grace interview 21:18

phase And you sort of like, you bond in that, and then you might, go off, you might surge for a bit and the other person might be struggling up the heels or something. But then you reconnect a different point in the race and you check in with each other. And there's just sort of this implicit understanding of yeah, this sucks. But also it's great and you know, we are doing it together and, and then you finish and

phoebe and anna interview 21:37

Yeah. I feel like the spectators as well. There's this everyone's like guards kind of down in the sense that, when else in life do you just cheer for random people? Yeah. Walking past, or even though you were saying in the like Kilimanjaro marathon, the farmers just like hosing people down. There's something so it's

grace interview 21:54

well, it brings out the, it brings out the whole community and it's not just people who run, it's, anyone who. Wants to share in joy as human beings. And that's what's really cool. It's this sort of like cross-cutting, activity that's way more than a sport.

phoebe and anna interview 22:07

Yeah. That is so true.

grace interview 22:08

It's like a good, it's like a good if, if cults were good.

phoebe and anna interview 22:12

Yeah.

grace interview 22:12

cult. It

phoebe and anna interview 22:13

It is running the good cult.

grace interview 22:15

There's no C clause at the bottom. Yeah. That says you can't leave. You know, and you have to dress a certain way. And I love that.

phoebe and anna interview 22:23

Well, actually on that note, one of the questions I wanted to ask,'cause I remember when you did Great Ocean Road last year, you did amazingly well. But I remember you saying afterwards, that was the hardest thing that was unbelievably challenging. why did you do it again?'cause

grace interview 22:38

Because I'm a psycho, I'm twisted. I have the trauma, the trauma,

phoebe and anna interview 22:43

but like what was the turnaround period between thinking that was so messed up? I never wanna run that distance again to I'm signing up for this again next year.

grace interview 22:51

at probably like minutes. really,

phoebe and anna interview 22:53

really,

grace interview 22:53

Yeah. It's probably a very quick, yeah. You get this, I would call it runner's amnesia.

phoebe and anna interview 22:59

Yeah. Yeah. Oh

grace interview 23:00

and like that you've just been present with yourself for that entire whatever it is, 21 Ks Marathon, ultra Marathon, and you go into these really dark places and you're in the pain cave and you're stewing in all your bad decisions you asking yourself, why did I do this? You know, this is so hard. This is awful. Like I just wanted to be over. And then you get to the end and you're like. Oh, cool. Yeah. What's the, where's the next race

phoebe and anna interview 23:22

Yeah, that's so true. I feel like people talk about that with childbirth, but it's

grace interview 23:26

kind of

phoebe and anna interview 23:26

as like running races. It's like so bloody hard. And then you're like, in the race, you know, you are bargaining with yourself. I'm never doing this again, blah, blah, blah. Then you like, finish a couple minutes later you're like, when's the next one? Yeah.

grace interview 23:39

Yeah, But it's the, it's the challenge and it's the, the reward, you know? That's why it's one of the reasons why it is so good for you, I look at the, world we live in today, especially in, urban western contexts, ecologically speaking, we've become so divorced from a natural life. most people are sedentary. They spend their time inside, they're on high speed devices. we're not only outsourcing our information to them, we're outsourcing our cognition more and more. and to run is so pure, not just in the, activity of it mechanically, biologically for you as an individual, but it's so pure the way that you connect. And again, there's no religion to it, there's no caveats and there's no 10 commandments that you have to follow and nobody's judged for,

phoebe and anna interview 24:22

Yeah.

grace interview 24:22

you know, the way that they live outside of running. Yeah. And I think for me, that gives life a very rich meaning, and it's quite simple. Yeah. and I think that that's where the depth is in the simplicity of

phoebe and anna interview 24:32

it. Yeah. And that's what keeps you coming back to these, these ultras and these incredibly tough endurance events that by all accounts, you should wanna avoid that kind of pain and discomfort. But instead it's something that,

grace interview 24:43

it teaches you something and it is chosen pain. As I said, it's a privilege to be able to run. Obviously a lot of people don't have access, or the ability to run for whatever reason. but it's a choice that you make and I've certainly experienced a lot of, dark times in my life that I didn't choose, especially as a, when you're a child, you don't have agents, you don't have any choice in what's happening, or limited choice. and those things you can't really do anything about that, as I

phoebe and anna interview 25:05

Mm-hmm.

grace interview 25:06

Um, but you can. Choose to be in pain with, running.

phoebe and anna interview 25:10

Yeah. There's, so there's

grace interview 25:11

something perversely empowering about that because, you know, you, get to be the sort of the master of your own destiny at moment to moment. At any point you actually can pull the pin. Yeah. And it's this ongoing test of with every step that you take, it's like you're shifting the goalposts, you're pushing yourself a little bit further and you're just testing your limits until you, you know, just proving to you just, yeah, you are in real time. You are proving, you're, you're proving the doubt. and the, the fear. That is natural. It's a natural part of life to experience those things. But you pushing that and you are, you're proving it wrong. And then that, that is something that carries over into other areas of your life. you can apply that lesson in, outside of running, the work that I do is offered quite stressful. It's very pressurized. I in front of thousands of people, maybe I get an asked a curly question and, have to hurtle back into my past, you know? But instead of being destabilized by that, where I might've been in the past, I'm sort of grounded in this proof that I've built up over a long period of time that actually no, I can do hard things and I can do them well, and I can get to the other side and it'll all be all right.

phoebe and anna interview 26:17

Yeah, yeah. And you are all in control of that.

grace interview 26:20

Yeah, exactly. And you're in control of that, and I've noticed, because I've, got back into running and it's been a sort of a stop start journey. And I did have surgery last year, actually four days after I did the Great Ocean Road Ultra. And my body was just like, are you doing? Like, you just smashed all your muscles up. Now you're cutting through your abs. What are you like, couldn't stand up for a couple of weeks. But, yeah, it's been a stop start journey, but over the last few years that I've been more consistently into running and it's been something that I, that I haven't had much time off of and has always just been a for foundation. I'm less reactive, you know? Mm. Because it is such a valuable tool of emotional regulation and of stability in general. And my work is very ad hoc as well, and I travel all over the country and that's, I sometimes travel overseas, I didn't race in Idaho, but I did actually run in negative 14

phoebe and anna interview 27:06

degrees. Oh my

grace interview 27:07

that was, a crazy run. And that was on the way to Kilimanjaro too. But you know, like, so I travel,

phoebe and anna interview 27:12

how survived that

grace interview 27:13

travel everywhere in all different climates, literally, and, and figuratively, socially as well. and I can always rely on the, sort of prescriptive, element of running that is in my day every day. I'm a very routine oriented person. I'm very receptive to routine. I think that's, that's good for everyone, you know, and obviously you need to have a bit of room for spontaneity, but I know that wherever I am, I mean, I just take my running shoes and socks and whatever. I obviously don't run in the no,

phoebe and anna interview 27:41

Yeah. Yeah. It's

grace interview 27:42

or maybe obviously not. Um, but I take my running gear with me and wherever I go, I know I can run around again. I know I can see the place and, and actually I feel like I see. More of a place than a lot of FIFO people do because I, I guaranteed to go and like, I got lost in guar once and popped out on the side of the, trail with these six foot tall red kangaroos old on either side of the road just looking at me and I was like, I, you know, I have no idea where I am, but you know, this is all part of the adventure. And it's that sort of mainspring of stability. because the rest of my day, I dunno what it's gonna look like, yes. But I know that I'll have my run. as I said, it's very prescriptive. It's good for your overall health. Yeah. Um, and then I, I'm sort of like ready to take on anything else that comes my way.

phoebe and anna interview 28:28

such a good framing for it. Yeah.

Phoebe 28:30

There's something else we wanted to talk about this episode.

Anna 28:32

Yes. You have been trialing and you supplement,

Phoebe 28:36

Mm-hmm. I'm, it's actually something we did an episode on a couple months ago which is creatine.

Anna 28:41

Go back and listen if you haven't.

Phoebe 28:42

Yes,

Anna 28:43

if I say so myself,

Phoebe 28:44

It is a great app. So I've been taking it consistently for, two months now. I've been using

phoebe outro 28:49

Pillar Performance

Phoebe 28:50

creatine monohydrate, their point of difference, is that they use CRE Pure. Mm-hmm. Which is the purest form of creatine monohydrate available. Yeah. And they have gone through every single safety check, performance check. this is the gold standard. It's also vegan, I'm gonna keep telling over the next couple weeks the things that I've noticed since taking it consistently. But, couldn't recommend it more Highly

Anna 29:10

Pillar Performance have given us a discount for 15% off Your first order. Please use the code cheeky at checkouts..

phoebe and anna interview 29:18

So do you think it makes you just more confident just in general in everything else that you do as well?

grace interview 29:24

I think, I think it makes you more self-assured. You learn yourself in those contexts as well. And I think it, I raw dogg it in that I don't listen to music when I'm running. I like to be very present. cause I, feel like that defeats the purpose. If you've got another filter or another distraction while you're doing that activity, well why are you doing it? Why don't you go and listen to some music, So, yeah, I like to be very, very present. And in those moments, you, you do, you know, some, sometimes you obviously, I think it's always a funny question where people are like, what do you think about the whole time? And I'm like, sometimes you're not thinking at all. Like, that's the, that's the whole point is that those are, as a very, innately active person, I'm absolutely terrible at meditation. If I have to sit down, I can't sit still. There's no way. But I can meditate if I'm, exer like actually using my machine, you know, I can, I can meditate then. And so what

phoebe and anna interview 30:12

what actually, one of the things I wanted to ask you,

grace interview 30:15

'cause I get,

phoebe and anna interview 30:16

cause I get the're not running with headphones and so on, but in an ultra. What do you think about when you're doing an ultra and you're, you are probably in pain, a lot of pain for the majority of the run. what are you actually thinking about?

grace interview 30:28

about? Sometimes you're thinking about how much pain you're in because you don't have a lot of energy to kind of like, you know, construct a lie to step over. But, um, it's interesting because, so a long run that you do in training by yourself that might be three or three and a half hours long, actually goes by a lot slower than a race does. That's much longer than that because there's so many things that are happening in the, in the race, like I, I mentioned before, go through different phases as an individual and you cross paths with people and, you know, the course chops and changes and grand Ocean Road yesterday was so, it was so great. It was so full of, things that I hadn't seen before and just, you know, Oh, gosh, well twice this has never happened and, and I'm sure this is actually quite common really. but twice

phoebe and anna interview 31:13

I

grace interview 31:14

I looked over and it's just a guy whipping their dick out, going for a wee on the side of the road. And I was like.

phoebe and anna interview 31:21

Really?

grace interview 31:21

Okay. I was like, there are port loos everywhere, but not the same guy. Just the serial. The serial we are of the great Ocean Road.

phoebe and anna interview 31:30

he's just always wanted, he's got a competition with himself. The most pictures place he can do a we. This is also, but

grace interview 31:37

while there's a throng of people around.

phoebe and anna interview 31:40

it's just something that women would

grace interview 31:42

public indecency.

phoebe and anna interview 31:43

Would

grace interview 31:44

That's exactly what I said. Well, what would the equivalent be? Oh, well, you'd have to like, it's quiet.

phoebe & anna interview vid 31:50

It's hard.

phoebe and anna interview 31:50

I know

grace interview 31:51

It's not as convenient.

phoebe and anna interview 31:53

Okay.

grace interview 31:53

It's more noticeable.

phoebe & anna interview vid 31:54

Trail runner.

phoebe and anna interview 31:55

women used to carry around those. She, wes. I,

grace interview 31:58

I, I have never even seen a shewe. It's like this, like phantom thing. This, this mythical creature that I've never encountered.

phoebe and anna interview 32:05

I also, if you are carrying around a she, we, I actually vote. You go, but this guy's gone. I just think you just live it out.

grace interview 32:12

just can't, guys, it's impressive to do it. Like The confidence of these. That's what, that's my first thought was like. Was was like, it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a quiet patch either. I was like, I was like, do you know where you're,

phoebe & anna interview vid 32:26

do you

grace interview 32:27

do you have any self-awareness? There are all these people everywhere.

phoebe and anna interview 32:32

yeah. That is such a, that confidence is so, not many women would be able be, oh, whatever people are running past, I'll be Right. So what that distracted you for one key of those. You got 58 Ks to go,

grace interview 32:47

Yeah. I got really philosophical about gender disparity. I was like, damn, I wanna, I want a

phoebe and anna interview 32:54

honestly only I could just whip out my penis another week.

phoebe & anna interview vid 32:57

week. No dear.

grace interview 32:59

there was another, memorable moment, probably not for a good reason, but I was running with this guy, and he was acting as a bit of a windbreaker. Most people are taller than me, but he was quite tall and then all of a sudden he, he

phoebe and anna interview 33:13

he burped and

grace interview 33:14

burped and he went, Ooh. He went, oh, there's nowhere for that to go. He turned around and just. Power Chuck. Oh

phoebe and anna interview 33:23

Oh yeah. No way.

grace interview 33:25

I just left in there. Poor

phoebe and anna interview 33:27

guy. Oh my God.

grace interview 33:28

But I did see him because in the ultra, they have to make up the, the distance between the 44 Ks of the marathon, which is all on the road between lawn and Apollo Bay, where it finishes to make up the 16 Ks. They throw you up two hills, 1 37 Ks in, which is five Ks just straight up. And then you come down and you join the road again, 43 Ks in. And then at 47 Ks there's another turnoff, a three K Hill

phoebe and anna interview 33:58

that is

grace interview 33:59

And you've run 47 Ks at this point. But I saw him, I saw him a couple of times when I was coming down and I saw, I knew he was okay'cause I was, I did actually ask a couple of people, on the way up, whether they'd seen that guy and whether he was okay. And yes, and I love that as well about running is that everyone sort of checks in on each other because it's like, we've all been there. Last year I threw up on myself, 56 Ks in, but it was a little, it was more of a tactical, just like off the side. Like a bit of a

phoebe and anna interview 34:27

little one. Not like just a cute little,

grace interview 34:29

it was a cute little,

phoebe and anna interview 34:30

just a cute little

grace interview 34:31

was a girl, it was a girl vomit. So all I could do in absence of a, she, we, I just, I just little whipped it out the side there, you know? It was very feminine. It was very feminine. And the rain, thankfully it was the only good thing about the rain is that by the time I got back into the town and there were all the photographers wanting

phoebe and anna interview 34:50

to take

grace interview 34:50

photos of you, it had been washed away. But, oh gosh, I was in quite bad shape last year. And you can ask actually Dad, really

phoebe and anna interview 34:58

oh, really

grace interview 34:58

attested. He was there both for both events. and he saw me at the end last year and I was in bits.

phoebe and anna interview 35:05

So where, what did you improve, do you think, in either your prep or the way that you raced to gain that 10 minutes this year?

grace interview 35:12

Well, I was a bit silly yesterday. I did actually have a, splits plan at a, at a strategy. And you, my friend Nick Beaton, who is a great runner himself and who was one of my pacers for the Bruney Island Ultra Marathon that I ran in in November. Yeah. he's a, he's a mathematician and he drew up, uh, splits a spreadsheet of all of my splits. accounting for the elevation across the, yeah, the entire elevation profile across the whole course. Um, and I wasn't gonna write 60.

phoebe and anna interview 35:48

Splits

grace interview 35:48

on my hand, but actually you can still faintly see my five kilometer splits.

phoebe and anna interview 35:54

so

grace interview 35:54

were 12. Yeah. There were 12 splits on there. They each at five kilometers. and that went out the, that went out the window in the first kilometer because, there was a woman who ended up, she ended up coming third yesterday. She'd never run an ultra before. I asked her, while we were running,'cause we ran together for a little bit. Mm-hmm. But she went out really hard and I was like, the competitor in me just,

phoebe and anna interview 36:16

Yeah. Goes with it. It's so hard not to. Yeah.

grace interview 36:19

And, and I was even telling myself, I was thinking, oh, Nick's gonna kill me. I'm gonna be dead to him. I'm not

phoebe and anna interview 36:24

dead. He's done all this

grace interview 36:25

all this mathematical modeling and I've just, And I also was thinking to myself, oh, you've gotta save something for the hills. So I did pull back a little bit, but I, I went out, I went out too hard. I went, I went a good 10 seconds per k too hard Oh, wow. At the beginning, which is, and as you know, it adds up. And, I was actually a lot stronger in the, at the end of the race. Um, I was still running like 4 30, 4 forties in the last 10 Ks, which I wasn't last year. Last year I got to the top of the second hill and I still had about 10 Ks to go and I just had to put one foot in front of the other. like I was, It was one of those like really dark pain caves of I can't make myself run any faster. But yeah, I pull, I, I I sort of moderated, tempered my pace a little bit, because again, the closer, the closer I came to the hills, the, the more real it was that I was gonna have to climb up

phoebe and anna interview 37:14

Yeah. I

grace interview 37:15

And I was like, you gotta save something for them.'cause I, I knew from last year how grueling they were. Mm-hmm. but I also. I was gonna say, I feel I fueled better, which doesn't sound right, considering that I had only two gels, one at 45 minutes in and the next one at, at 90 minutes in, and I was out there for four and a half hours. The rest of the carbs that I took in were all purely from sports drink because I could, for whatever reason, my gut was

phoebe and anna interview 37:40

just blown, didn't want it.

grace interview 37:41

I tried a third gel and I got about halfway through it and I thought, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have the, the power truck, if I have any more. so I just relied on, water and sports drink and just pounded them. Yeah. Yeah.

phoebe and anna interview 37:54

how do you think about fuel for a race like that? I guess obviously you'd need to do the carload before and make sure you're replenishing afterwards, but like, how do you plan out an estimate how much fuel you're actually gonna need?

grace interview 38:06

Well, I mean, you can do it at kilometer intervals. You can do it at minute. Intervals, you can read the packet off and it's has a suggestion on the, on the packet of a gel of how frequently you should have one. but it, it sometimes, as, as we all know, and especially as women too, who have hormonal cycles that can affect what you eat and how you're feeling, and especially around your, pelvic region, which is neighbors your bowel. it's really unpredictable. Yeah. You know, you can get out there and, and your typical tried and true fueling strategy just doesn't work all of a sudden. Yeah. because you are also going a bit faster than

phoebe and anna interview 38:45

Yes, yes. And harder

grace interview 38:46

go because of often that, that's the thing about training is that. But yes, you do training sessions where you're running at your goal race pace, but often they're in a shorter interval session where they don't necess necessitate a gel. Yeah. So you practice on your long runs with fuels, but drinking or eating when you are running even four thirties. Yeah. Or five minute Ks versus a four minute K or a 3 45, you know, it's very different. You know, because you're fighting a lot more inflammation. That means your entire system, like your digestive system, your gastro, it's all way more sensitive to whatever you put in.

phoebe and anna interview 39:28

And like lack of blood flow as

grace interview 39:30

Lack of blood flow.

phoebe and anna interview 39:31

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's always, you sort of hear that quite a bit. people, they've done all, all this training and have been fine with gels and then in the race they really struggle.'cause I just, I don't think you can ever really mimic what it's gonna feel like in a race. you can do your best, you can like prepare as much as possible. Mm-hmm. But it is always a bit different, but, so how good that you had the electrolyte or the, carb drinks.

grace interview 39:54

I thought that, Yeah. I thought that was really, wise of the

phoebe and anna interview 39:56

organizers to Yeah.

grace interview 39:58

to factor that in, to give you the option. Yeah. Usually they have electrolytes, but this was specific sports

phoebe and anna interview 40:03

drink, actual car.

grace interview 40:04

color. Yeah. It was the Morton and it, and it, it doesn't have a strong taste either. And I think that can be really hard as well.'cause your tastes change. That's another thing that you become more sensitive to when you're out there and everything is just amplified and, more sensitive. so it was, it was not too that sort of saccharine

phoebe and anna interview 40:22

sweet, Yes, yes.

grace interview 40:24

Like

phoebe and anna interview 40:25

What was the hardest point in the run for you?

grace interview 40:29

Oh, by firing away that second hill. Yeah. Yeah, I was doing some bargains with myself. I, I had some, I had some walk run moments. I was going just, okay, just count to 10, walk you know, for 10 seconds and then run again and then, you know, run again until you just, you really can't. And then walk for 10 seconds and then do it again and just get up to the top of that hill. And I was like, get up to the top of that hill, you 50 Ks in and then it's just a 10 k run. I was doing that little, breaking it into, breaking it. I got really good at my times tables, my six times tables, my 12 times tables, my five times tables, uh, my 10 times tables. I was really good at them, you know, like just, just breaking it up into little chunks, you know? Yeah. It's just I was like, oh, it's just four 15 K runs, you know, love a 15 K run. There's just four of them, you know, whatever. Yeah. So

phoebe and anna interview 41:21

do you have any like affirmations or things that you say to yourself while you run?

grace interview 41:25

Pr really basic ones. Yeah. Because if they're too convoluted, That actually diverts that diverts. No, it diverts too much energy away from, you know, like, you don't wanna be thinking too hard. Yeah. Because that's a muscle, your brain's a muscle too. so it's just basic stuff like you are strong.

phoebe and anna interview 41:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you find that helps? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

grace interview 41:45

'cause all of a sudden, I, got to a point, I think I was speaking about this before we recorded the podcast and, and realized that we needed to save it. Save it.

phoebe and anna interview 41:52

save it. Save it. No talking.

grace interview 41:54

but I, I realized I was so, I was in a trance as I was moving I realized that the mantra that I was saying, I started saying out loud to myself, and I didn't do that consciously, but I, brought myself back to present moment by hearing the sound of my own voice. Yeah. Saying something just to pull me up this hill. Wow.

phoebe and anna interview 42:12

Wow. That's very cool. That's so cool. I feel like every race you sort of learn something from it or get something out of it. What do you think you got out of yesterday's run?

grace interview 42:23

Well, if I. So it's interesting, the first ultra that I ever did was the Bruney Island Ultra Marathon. That was 64 Ks. And it's similar in some ways, not just in terms of the distance to Great Ocean Road, but in terms of the elevation profile, the hardest bit of the run is towards the end where it gets really hilly. And also it changes from bitumen, smooth bitumen to corrugated dirt road. and so that head game, you know, like, and often as you're running Bruny they say oh, the race doesn't start until that last 16 Ks when you get into the national Parkland where all the hills are.

phoebe & anna interview vid 43:00

are.

grace interview 43:01

it's quite comparable in a few respects. and the first time I did Bruni, I ran that, at about four 40 fives. and then I ran Great Ocean Road five months later. and I ran four 40 eights, I think was my average. And so there was about a three second difference per K. And I ran, Bruni again. five months ago, and I had a really great strategy. I had two guys, interchanging with pacing and, I had dad there. I had my cousin Eloise, who's my coach. I had her husband, and my friend Jimmy, who was riding on the bike, as a messenger between dad and my cousin and her husband in the car, and me on

phoebe and anna interview 43:44

Wow.

grace interview 43:44

Wow. On the

phoebe and anna interview 43:45

What a setup. Yeah. That's

grace interview 43:46

great setup. It was really efficient. It meant that I, could just run in, you know, loose shorts and a and a crop top and I had minimal distraction. There was very little fuss. Yeah. which can be one of the things that's hard in a big race like that if you've gotta carry

phoebe and anna interview 44:00

all Yeah. all of the,

grace interview 44:01

gels and your fluids and stuff. So, but that was a really strategic, well executed race, and. Five months later. Yesterday I ran, greater Road again. I'd done it before. and it's again that five months after Bruni and I ran an average of, four 30 sixes. so it was like one second per k different to, to Bruni this year. I think I did, yeah, I averaged four 30 fives at Bruni most recently. So it's like I'm doing similar, I'm improving by a similar amount. Yeah. but the way that I executed Great Ocean Road in comparison to Bruni was completely different. as soon as I crossed the finish line, I was like, you need to actually follow your race plan, because I did at Bruny and it was great and I felt great the whole way, whereas. I shouldn't have gone out too

phoebe and anna interview 44:54

hard Yeah.

grace interview 44:55

Yesterday, you know, and I, I knew that, and I especially knew it at the end, and I was like, well, I've already got an example of how executing and actually sticking to a, respecting a race plan, how that manifests a, good outcome compared to when you, throw it out the window. Yeah.

phoebe and anna interview 45:14

it's also much more enjoyable as well,

grace interview 45:16

experience

phoebe and anna interview 45:17

I feel. Yeah,

grace interview 45:18

yeah, yeah. So already I'm, thinking, well, I've I've gotta do grad Ocean Road next year again, and I've gotta stick to my race plan and I'm trying to recruit some paces. I've already asked a couple of people like, would you sign up for this and would you just, you know, would you wanna past this or, oh, ready.

phoebe and anna interview 45:34

I'll pace you if I could. I feel like that sounds very challenging to pace. Even part of that feels the pace you're flying along.

grace interview 45:44

Oh, not, not with Nick's maths. I mean, there was some clear 5K splits that I just, they, it rubbed off, so it was illegible after about four Ks.

phoebe and anna interview 45:53

that is,

grace interview 45:54

but even though they're still, the really deep ink is, is actually still there. And I've had two showers, mind you, um, for everyone playing it since then. I was, I really am clean, safe,

phoebe and anna interview 46:03

it's gonna say

grace interview 46:05

but I, I knew, off the top of my head roughly what my

phoebe and anna interview 46:09

splits are. Yeah, yeah.

grace interview 46:10

for each five Ks. And I set my, I set my watch to lap every five

phoebe and anna interview 46:15

Oh, oh, so good.

grace interview 46:16

and you know, the first one popped up and I knew it had to be 22 minutes and it was like 20 minutes and 30 seconds or something. And I was like, oh, 90 seconds, that's a bit fast. And the next one, though, again, was the same. It was like each time it was like at least a minute quicker than what I had. And I just, that's when I. I got, I got to around 20 ks actually. because I remember distinctly thinking to myself, oh, you've still got another 13 Ks before you hit these hills? So yeah. And that's when I pulled back and, and the woman who was leading for most of the race, she got quite a lead. Yeah. Um, on me. And I just thought, you know what, maybe you'll make it up at the end, who knows? But you've gotta do something. you can't keep this up. Yeah. Um,'cause I learned that from last year. Last year I also went out really quite hard and, the heels that I'd, I'd never run them before really got me. Although I actually ran faster up the heels last year.

phoebe and anna interview 47:05

Really?

grace interview 47:06

this year. Yeah. I noticed my splits in comparison, but when I came down off the top of that second hill, I was much stronger and I was much faster. I was like, at least a minute per k faster for the last 10 Ks.

phoebe and anna interview 47:17

Wow. See that's where you

grace interview 47:18

that's where I made up, that's where I made up the 10 minute pb.

phoebe and anna interview 47:21

Yeah. What difference do you think,'cause you're really good with your strength work,

grace interview 47:25

Oh, that, that is actually something that I reckon is part of it too. And I reckon it's why I pulled up so well, because I've got more muscle. I just have more muscle mass. Yeah. and that might be considered, unfavorable for elite runners because, you know, there's that notion that lighter is faster, but I I just dunno if I really agree with it.'cause I, know for a fact having done races, being lighter, and not having as much muscle being lean, but feeling completely broken, even just after a marathon. Whereas today I've ran 60 ks yesterday. Yeah. And I went hard too. And today I am like, oh, I've never felt so good after a race. In fact, I did a, I did a back and bicep workout in the gym this morning.

phoebe and anna interview 48:10

That is actually amazing.

grace interview 48:11

And it felt great. It felt great. Maybe I'm just, maybe it's all gonna hit me like a ton of bricks tomorrow or something. It's a two day Doms will get me in.

phoebe and anna interview 48:19

day two.

grace interview 48:19

Poor dad will have to like roll me out of bed.

phoebe and anna interview 48:23

out. Yeah. yeah, even walking in today, you're moving so well. Like I feel like even after a marathon, people limping, they can't get downstairs.

grace interview 48:31

oh well, yeah, well we didn't mention stairs. Um, no, it's actually going, it's going down. It feels, it's, yeah. Yeah. No, that actually, that's, that's the thing that I said actually this morning too. So not only was dad there, but my friend Vanessa was there as well and I said to Vanessa today before we left,

phoebe and anna interview 48:49

Lauren.

grace interview 48:50

I said, usually I can tell that I've had a race the day before because sitting down on the toilet is the worst thing in the world.

phoebe and anna interview 48:57

have to fall. Yes.

grace interview 48:58

you do. You have to,

phoebe and anna interview 48:59

It's really,

grace interview 49:00

you just have to know roughly where the toilet bowl is and just sort of

phoebe and anna interview 49:04

the best.

grace interview 49:05

tip yourself back

phoebe and anna interview 49:06

You land in the right spot. It

grace interview 49:09

because there's no shoe. We,

phoebe & anna interview vid 49:11

We,

grace interview 49:14

we can't just go can't just, Yeah. That's what they're really for

phoebe and anna interview 49:17

that, that is

grace interview 49:18

marathon, so you don't have to sit

phoebe and anna interview 49:20

Seriously. Everyone thinks they're for during, but

grace interview 49:23

they're actually,

phoebe and anna interview 49:23

meant for after.

phoebe & anna interview vid 49:24

after.

phoebe and anna interview 49:26

And you could do that.

grace interview 49:27

Yeah, I could. I did struggle last night. We walked from the hotel, to a restaurant around the corner, but where we were staying was up on this really quite steep hill. And again, it was the, it was walking down and that's definitely the hardest part of, great Ocean Road actually is, not only the hills going up them, because you get obviously out of breath, your heart rate goes up, all that sort of stuff like that with hills. But it's coming down them like going, running down a steep three K hill after you've run 50 Ks is really hard on your quads. You just completely mash them. You're nothing left. Yeah.

phoebe and anna interview 50:03

I can't even imagine. That's where I would be,

grace interview 50:06

So that's where I felt it was, uh, going down.

phoebe and anna interview 50:09

So how, even though you've pulled up relatively well, how will you recover what will

grace interview 50:15

recover? Eat, eat,

phoebe & anna interview vid 50:17

Eat? Yeah.

phoebe and anna interview 50:18

Protein. Yeah. Gloves,

grace interview 50:21

drink.

phoebe and anna interview 50:22

Yeah.

grace interview 50:23

Lots of anti-inflammatory stuff. I chronically drink turmeric and ginger tea. I just drink it all day. I drank it all day before the race as well. and yeah, making sure you replenish all your electrolytes. Yeah. Minerals, salts and things. The magnesium.

phoebe and anna interview 50:38

Yeah. That's

grace interview 50:39

yeah. yeah. Bit of crew. Tune, bulk

phoebe & anna interview vid 50:43

Yeah.

grace interview 50:44

games,

phoebe and anna interview 50:45

It's so good. Back and by

grace interview 50:47

back of eyes, chest and trash tomorrow.

phoebe and anna interview 50:50

and what's on the agenda? What's your, have you got something else that you are planning?

grace interview 50:55

Oh yeah. Next big race is, it's, around Uluru, the Australian Outback Marathon, which

phoebe and anna interview 51:02

like, amazing.

grace interview 51:03

yeah, so cool. When's that? 25th of July.

phoebe and anna interview 51:06

Okay. And it's a full mar? Yep, Okay. So you got a little bit of a gap now, like that's a good, what is that? It's two months, two months away? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Two and a bit.

grace interview 51:17

Two and a bit. This is my, this is my recovery week.

phoebe and anna interview 51:19

weeks away. You're fine. that will be amazing.

grace interview 51:22

Yeah. And that's not a PB course either, so

phoebe and anna interview 51:25

it's an adventure.

grace interview 51:25

it's quite nice, you know, training for it, so it's not gonna be as hard as if you didn't train for it. And I would not recommend doing a marathon with no training. Yeah. Yeah, no, that'll, that'll be really fun, Uluru. I dunno about you guys. I'm actually curious, how you, organize your race calendar, with shorter distances leading up to a big race.'cause often I like to do a half, about three weeks before I do a marathon. a

phoebe and anna interview 51:52

race? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

grace interview 51:54

Just as a sort of, it's not quite a simulation because you, you're running a little bit faster in a half. but it does give you

phoebe and anna interview 52:01

that. but it's still that race day practice as well. You're fueling like getting into your routines the night before and everything. yeah, I feel like that the typical thing is have an a race in a year where it's like, this is my most important race that I want. You know, it might be a marathon or half marathon where people get a PB or whatever that is. And then people have B races, which are like the ones that you don't have as much investment in. And yeah, it might be a practice in the lead up to the big race kind of thing. But I don't know. I found, I did that last year, what we both kind of did with Berlin. Mm-hmm. And then. It puts a lot of pressure on one race. Yeah. And I have intentionally, well, we've both intentionally not done that this year and done more just intentional, sorry, but intentional for me. And maybe not intentional for you, but it's happened anyway. yeah. Just more like peaked a few races. That sound fun. Yeah. I, I don't know, just chatting to you previously and even today, it really makes me, think the idea of doing these races that are in places that are cool, having these adventures on the side. I feel like there's not as much, obviously you still go as hard as you can. You like do what you can do, but there's something really nice, the thought of no matter how the race goes, you're kind of getting something out of the experience anyway.

grace interview 53:19

I think you actually then perform

phoebe and anna interview 53:21

Yeah.'cause there's like

grace interview 53:22

like, I totally surprise myself at Kilimanjaro, yeah. the African continent has some of the best produce, some of the best runners in the world, and especially in East Africa, you know, because like a lot of Kenyans come down from Tanzania and they do it regularly. In fact, I ran with a Kenyan for 16 Ks of the race

phoebe and anna interview 53:37

Oh wow.

grace interview 53:38

the finish line, which was great. Um, his name happened to be Sydney, which I thought was

phoebe and anna interview 53:41

really cool.

grace interview 53:42

but I surprised myself. I, I went to be with my cousin Millie, you know, and, and to share that experience. but I gave it a crack and ended up coming seventh and running a 3 0 7 marathon on, on that, that course, you know,

phoebe and anna interview 53:55

amazing. Yeah. That's

grace interview 53:56

which is a hard course. Yeah. So. And, again, I didn't have any pressure'cause I was like, oh, I'm not gonna get a PB today. You know, I'm not gonna run a sub three hour marathon on 600 meters of elevation. But still gave it a good crack and,

phoebe and anna interview 54:06

And what a great way to see the world as well. who

grace interview 54:09

best way to see the world. It is. You might

phoebe and anna interview 54:11

you might not have gone to, I don't know. I feel like it just takes you to destinations. Well, can, especially I feel like you do it really well, takes you to destinations that you might not necessarily go. And then you see somewhere that you're like, oh my God, this is amazing.

grace interview 54:24

Yeah. And that's, that's why travel, travel is so educative is because you actually see how different a life can

phoebe and anna interview 54:31

be, Yeah,

grace interview 54:32

doesn't have to follow this sort of conventional mold. Yeah. and you know, you see that, for example, especially if you, I live in Tasmania and, and it's Tasmania's a beautiful place, but it can get very It, it can get a bit prohibitive in terms of the milestones that you're expected to reach at a certain

phoebe and anna interview 54:49

point. Oh yeah.

grace interview 54:50

Oh, yeah. Like there's a very sort of traditional sort of, oh, well you get to your, you know, my age and you know, you should probably have kids now and you should probably be married and blah, blah, blah, all that sort of stuff like that. But when you travel the world and you integrate with different cultures and you see how they live, you know, there's lots of, lots of different ways you can go about

phoebe and anna interview 55:04

things. Yes. Yeah.

grace interview 55:05

And, I think, I think running is the best way to see it. And then also too, when you do a, an event, a community event or, or a big organized event that's centered around running in one of those places, you make friends and you're guaranteed to have. A lot of connection points because someone who also runs has a similar lifestyle to

phoebe and anna interview 55:26

yeah, definitely.

grace interview 55:27

And so, you know, you always meet people when you go over overseas and it's obviously nice to meet people outside of your, typical sort of world, and your way of doing things. But it is also nice to then find common ground. Mm-hmm.

phoebe and anna interview 55:39

Do you have a dream race or city that you'd love to travel to, to run in?

grace interview 55:44

I'd love to do all the majors, I think, especially Berlin.'cause I can speak a little bit of German and I'd love

phoebe and anna interview 55:48

to go. Oh

grace interview 55:49

because I think, you know, it's, a bit of a shame, but most Australians can only speak English.

phoebe and anna interview 55:53

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

grace interview 55:54

you know, and, idiot. Um, but, yeah, I'd

phoebe and anna interview 55:59

to me like that.

grace interview 56:02

No, but I, I would love to do all the majors, but I, again, I think it's off the beaten track.

phoebe and anna interview 56:08

Yeah.

grace interview 56:09

Races that, that really appeal to me. The ones that are more of an adventure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know,

phoebe and anna interview 56:15

I know this is for me, and I'm sure a lot of listeners might think the same, but how do you find these races to do

grace interview 56:22

Google? Google?

phoebe and anna interview 56:23

Google? To Google?

grace interview 56:24

No, I know it's often word of mouth actually. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I often, because sometimes it's a race that is, is my reason for going somewhere that's, but often I have to travel anyway and, then I, that will motivate me to find a race there

phoebe and anna interview 56:40

Yeah, yeah, that's true. She is literally looking up race in this city, in this.

grace interview 56:44

Yeah. Yeah. It depends. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll often motivated to do a race in a, in a part of the world that I have to visit, or that I, you know, am visiting. and yeah. Otherwise it'll be that's the reason I'm going

phoebe and anna interview 56:56

there. Yeah. Can you start a, I would love for you to start travel vlog series of the cities that you visit and then the races that you do.

grace interview 57:04

Well, FBE, I'm writing a book, another book, that's essentially, oh,

phoebe and anna interview 57:10

Oh,

grace interview 57:11

essentially that it's, more of a, a philosophical, unpacking of my relationship with running that I hope resonates with other runners. but it is gonna be structured around, certain races in certain parts of the world. And as you know, it's not just the race, that the race doesn't happen in a vacuum, it's, it's the culmination of lots of different layers of, of training, of adjusting your lifestyle, of, getting a support crew together. And, there's lots to be sort of analyzed, I suppose, or

phoebe and anna interview 57:43

Oh yeah.

grace interview 57:44

in how you make a race come to be.

phoebe and anna interview 57:47

Yeah. One, one could say, you could even even start a podcast about it.

phoebe & anna interview vid 57:50

it,

grace interview 57:51

I, yeah. I,

phoebe and anna interview 57:52

say,

grace interview 57:53

who knows.

phoebe & anna interview vid 57:54

knows?

phoebe and anna interview 57:55

well, very, very excited and I feel like you've added a lot of. You have added so many chapters to that book in this year already. Mm, yes. With the amount of races that you've done, but we'll need to get you on for another debrief post. the Uluru Marathon.

grace interview 58:08

I would love to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Block it in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's gonna be a life changing event. I can already feel it. Feel it in

phoebe and anna interview 58:15

will be unreal.

grace interview 58:17

We in your waters. It's gonna be on red dirt. How cool

phoebe and anna interview 58:20

That is honestly so, so cool.

grace interview 58:23

I don't know if you guys do this, but if you are going to prepare for a race. I don't just like to look at the course map that's provided by the website, because that's one thing I like to go and I'll go and look through like the previous winners and I'll go and find on Strava someone who's done it. Oh,

phoebe and anna interview 58:37

Oh, that is

grace interview 58:38

And then I also like read their little race recap and last year they had to pause two Ks in for 11 minutes for camels to cross.

phoebe and anna interview 58:47

Oh my gosh. No way. Gosh.

grace interview 58:48

do this Ray. so I've gotta see this, you

phoebe and anna interview 58:51

Oh, and yeah, we'll definitely need to debrief that then. Yeah, That is amazing actually. Okay. Yeah. Maybe question to finish off. do you have any running wrecks,

grace interview 58:58

Definitely carb load, but carb load within reason. You don't wanna make yourself really over full and heavy and sick. I like to go for like single source sort of foods, just oats and banana, rather than like, you know, processed

phoebe and anna interview 59:15

bread or something Yeah. Okay. Simple sort of,

grace interview 59:18

yeah, simple carbs. roast potato, like crunchy, crispy roast potato that has a little bit of oil and salt that. So thinks great. but in terms of, I can't come on the podcast and not spruik Tasmania's trails. Yeah, because we have some of the best, and I'm not biased. We, we really do. Yeah. we have the overland track that you can run if you game. that's probably our like, you know, biggest cha most challenging run. Then we've got all the trails on, which is, the mountain behind. Hobart City,

phoebe and anna interview 59:50

Yeah.

grace interview 59:51

it's really easily accessible. but then we also have on the Tasman Peninsula three capes.

phoebe and anna interview 59:57

Yes. Oh,

grace interview 59:58

Cape Hoi, and Cape and Cape Pillar. And you can do Cape Pillar and Cape Hoi in one go. And that's about a, I think it's about 43 kilometers circuit. Um, and you can choose whether or not you do the stairs to go out to Cape Hoyle or not.'cause you're, by that point, you've already done 30 something Ks and, and you've done quite a bit of climbing, but it's a really specky run. The views are amazing. And if you go at the right time of day, you can be out there and there'll be absolutely no one around because it's Tasmania,

phoebe and anna interview 1:00:27

That is incredible. That is so cool. I would love to run. that. Or the overland track. That'd be amazing. We definitely should do a trip down there. A little running trip down there. Be rude. Not to work purposes. We come visit it. Yay. Well, thank you so much for joining us today for the debrief. Mm. Very much appreciate it. And yeah, can't wait to catch up after the next one.

grace interview 1:00:48

Yeah, me too. Thanks for having me on.

phoebe and anna interview 1:00:50

Thank you so much for making the time. As we said at the start, we've always wanted to have you on, so it's nice to finally do it. Yay.

grace interview 1:00:57

I've always wanted to be on cute.

anna outro vid 1:01:01

think that's it for this week. I think that's it. Wow. What an app. What an episode. I feel like we've really, the last two episodes, well, we've now interviewed two running and life icons in two weeks. What were we thinking? We shouldn't spaced it out. I know. How can we, how can we compete with ourselves there? It's totally downhill from here. It's only downhill. But yeah, I really, really hope everyone enjoyed that episode as much as we enjoyed recording it. And hopefully we'll be able to get Grace back on Zoom. Yeah, would love to. that's it. That's it. We can't wait to be in your ears. We can't. We can't wait next Monday. Bye. Bye

grace interview 1:01:40

Still. Still? Yeah. I get. but it's. You fidgeting with your ring? I've got sonic hearing brother. I was like, squirrel. He is like, I was like, what is,

phoebe and anna interview 1:02:02

he's like tapping his watch. He's like,

grace interview 1:02:04

He's like, I am dead. I am old man. I must sleep now.