Cheeky Run Club

What nobody is saying about the Enhanced Games

• Phoebe Pincus & Anna Coldham • Season 6 • Episode 5

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BUCKLE IN CHEEKY CREW this is a big one. 

Have you heard of the Enhanced Games? If you haven’t, they’re marketing themselves as an Olympics which would allow performance-enhancing drugs…and it’s just been announced that the first ever games will be held in a year.

We’ve done some digging on the games, and boyyyy oh boy is there a lot to unpack here. Let us know what you think!

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Music produced by Hugh Raper. Logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

anna:

Cheeky Run Club recognizes that every day we live, work, and run on Aboriginal land.

Phoebe:

This episode is sponsored by Pillar Performance and their new creatine monohydrate powder.

anna:

Welcome to Chinky Run Club, the Welcome to Chinky Run Club, the social running podcast, and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello, Phoebe. Hello and hello listeners.

Phoebe:

today's show we have a huge rundown segment, fuel, and it's all about the enhanced games. So the enhanced games location and date has been announced and is set to start in May 20, 26, and none other than the humble town of Las Vegas. there are huge opinions both for and against these games taking place. They're obviously hugely controversial, so we dove deep into the games themselves, what they are, why they exist. And in doing so, we uncovered some things that I would say blew our minds, is not an understatement.

anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

In our quest to really try and understand these games, why they exist, what the appeal is, we uncovered. I feel like we became investigative journalists this week because I think

anna:

we had best

Phoebe:

We have the best time. I

anna:

both need a career shift investigative journalism. I

Phoebe:

I don't think we've ever sent,

anna:

do you even say that? Investigative.

Phoebe:

journalism. I don't think we've ever sent so many frantic voice notes.

anna:

Yeah,

Phoebe:

Listen to

anna:

listen to Listen to this.

Phoebe:

So we're gonna talk about that on today's episode.

anna:

Yeah. I think we were saying that all of the articles seem to kind of float around the surface of what's happening rather than going into the actual issues. the potential pros of it and also the negative effects that it may have

Phoebe:

Yeah. On

anna:

I don't mean to overstate it, but kind of effect on the world.

Phoebe:

Yeah. I don't think that's an

anna:

Humanity going forward.

Phoebe:

But first off, as always, we'll kick it off with our notable runs of the week. Anna, tell me about your. Best run

anna:

I'm still yet to run posts Sydney because my hip is still sore. So alas, I did joke about it last week being like, ha ha, sure you can't get injured when you don't really run that much. But here we are. You can. So my best running adjacent activity would be a massage that I had with our great friend the other day in Richmond, in Melbourne. If anyone lives in Melbourne, you really need to go to RO sports for a massage. She is insane. She is about what, 160 centimeters, quite a lean build and she puts out more force I, than I have ever encountered. It crazy.

Phoebe:

I know. But we need to stop. Recommending her because she is fully booked. And she says that people often reach out to her saying, I heard about you through the cheeky podcast. And then she's like, no, I'm booked. But you can have some of the

anna:

Yeah, no. And they're like, no, no,

Phoebe:

no, no.

anna:

want you.

Phoebe:

We've heard about you. We yeah,

anna:

We only want you. Yeah, actually. So maybe don't go.

Phoebe:

And do you wanna give a bit of an update on what the Yeah. What is the injury? What's the

anna:

Not really sure. I think it's a, I went to see the physio. I think it's something to do with the tendon that goes above the iliac crest. So, I think I ever mentioned on the pod, yeah, I'm. Apparently hormone imbalances can affect tendon health, which is fun. so yeah, I don't know. I'm just resting it for a little bit. We'll see. I'll let you know next week how, how it's going. what about you? Gimme your best.

Phoebe:

My best round of the week was I was on the Gold Coast over weekend.

anna:

sunning

Phoebe:

Yeah. It was actually ridiculously nice. It was 27 degrees, sunny, lovely weather. And I was visiting my parents, but also my sister and her family, which includes my two nephews. And the absolute, best run of the week was a run that I went for with my sister. so it was Sunday morning. We got up really early to go for a run before the

anna:

little kids

Phoebe:

Yeah. We were really

anna:

What time is really early? I feel like early up there is early. So what's really

Phoebe:

we didn't, no, sorry. It was early for a Sunday morning. Oh, okay. Like, I think we started running just before 6:00 AM And actually the boys are up at, around like 10 minutes after we left. Pretty much. So it's not that they, yeah. don't sleep in on Sundays.

anna:

know

Phoebe:

they know

anna:

Day of rest.

Phoebe:

But it was an absolutely stunning sunrise, beautiful, perfect. Gold Coast. Morning, everyone out and about. Actually, you know what I saw a lot of running onesies

anna:

What,

Phoebe:

face.

anna:

like a leotard? Yeah.

Phoebe:

you know, like, but shorts as well. all connected. I know Gold Coast is, I dunno, they're in our own category. I love

anna:

Are you into it?

Phoebe:

not, they looked really cool. They did. They looked really

anna:

That reminds me of like a tri suit.

Phoebe:

Yeah. No, but these are like pastel colors kind of

anna:

Okay. I would probably say no. I don't know.

Phoebe:

you I

anna:

Not for

Phoebe:

and I once got sent running dresses. Yeah, yeah. We haven't worn them. That's all we'll say

anna:

all we'll say They may been given to someone else. joking. We love them.

Phoebe:

But yeah, so Summer is best run of the week running with my sister. Beautiful sunrise. We did a stop and walk halfway, which I love. I just deep in conversation, let's walk a little bit. I was quite sick so I was keen to take it really easy. Yeah. And just absolute joy I wish in my life. One of the things I wish I got to do more was go for more runs with my sister. So it was just so

anna:

well lucky you got a little life to live.

Phoebe:

Got a lot of life to live. I'm sure there'll be plenty more. tell me about your worst, not run, but running related experience.'cause you didn't run.

anna:

mine wasn't really running related either.

Phoebe:

just worse experience.

anna:

My worst, but it's also kind of funny. It was my sister-in-law's birthday, last week. Happy birthday, Sophie. And I made her a cake. I made her a hummingbird cake. My brother said that was her favorite.

Phoebe:

What

anna:

So, made the cake for her, iced it on Friday night, just before we went out, went to my room to get change, heard something went back in the kitchen to get the cake. Ted's front paws up on the kitchen bench. He had somehow maneuvered the plate towards

Phoebe:

wanted the hummingbird cake and.

anna:

he's never done this before. I just wanna say we've had meat and that you would think would be more palatable a dog up on the kitchen

Phoebe:

He wanted pineapple.

anna:

he's never done this before. He has licked about a quarter of the cake's. Cream cheese frosting off the cake was

Phoebe:

it off.

anna:

cake was completely

Phoebe:

your Ted. Oh.

anna:

Like, not one. not take one little nibble of the cake. It was purely the cream cheese frosting and walnuts. And it was the funniest visual that I just started laughing. I couldn't even get angry at him he's just, as soon as he's seen me, he wouldn't have really had sugar before. And then he's like, looked with his eyeballs, but his head is

Phoebe:

still

anna:

cake, licking the cake out of the side of his mouth. It was the most manic visual of him being like, oh, oh shit. Oh

Phoebe:

but I can't stop. so

anna:

Um,, and then I've been listening to, this is, sorry, off on a

Phoebe:

tangent. No, no, no. Wait, wait. Did what did you do with the cake? Did you just re ice it or, oh,

anna:

Oh, uh, yeah. And then I was driving to the

Phoebe:

did you actually,

anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

know.

anna:

and then I, no, no, no. I like, I like got rid of the stuff. Anyway, anyway. Wait, wait. The story keeps going. And then I was on my way. To the dinner, and I've been really invested in the mushroom case that's happening at the moment in Morwell, the case about the triple murder. It's a podcast by the A, B, C, and they pretty much do an overview of each day in court and on the way over, I all of a sudden had, in my head, I was like, I've taken Ted to the park. What if he somehow eaten something and then slobbered on cake and I kill my family?

Phoebe:

Oh gosh. Um, you are the near Aaron Patterson.

anna:

Yeah, I know. Anyway, so then I was like, no, I'm not gonna tell them. And then I sat down to dinner and the, I didn't even say hi. The first thing I said was,

Phoebe:

you admitted? Yeah. I said

anna:

yeah. I dead cake

Phoebe:

clean

anna:

anyway. And then I said my brother, that's your corner. You will have the bottom left corner

Phoebe:

Oh. So okay. There's only part of the cake.

anna:

So it was just the bottom left

Phoebe:

cut off that bit and share the rest of it?

anna:

because I've, well, I,

Phoebe:

you wanted a corner of a cake

anna:

Well, no, not so much that, but I feel like, a whole cake looks nice that doesn't

Phoebe:

No, I know. But you could have cut it once you got there. I always should have come clean and just chopped that bit away and say, I'm

anna:

oh my gosh. No way. It's like you clean it a little bit and it's fine. dogs lick you all the time.

Phoebe:

but sh I, God, this is such a dog owner versus non dog owner I'm like, that is

anna:

like It would've been gross if I didn't clean it. not disputing

Phoebe:

Okay. We are keeping this in even though it's been like the longest because I need to survey the listeners and say, is that okay? Or clean Yeah.

anna:

But then also warn the people that are gonna

Phoebe:

weren't going to,'cause if you hadn't listened to that mushroom daily case, that's what made you come clean. Were you gonna

anna:

Oh no, I wasn't listening to it on the thing.

Phoebe:

Oh, okay. You're just thinking about

anna:

okay. You just thinking on the, I was just thinking about it.

Phoebe:

Okay. But would you have come clean otherwise?

anna:

a hundred percent.'cause it's too funny of a story

Phoebe:

yesterday. Oh, okay, okay. Okay. To come. I think that's better to come clean.

anna:

That was my worst running, non-running adjacent activity. What was yours?

Phoebe:

well, as I alluded to before a let slip, I have been sick. I feel like, a lot of last year recording though, I was probably a bit sick, but I've, this year I haven't really been sick, which has been amazing.

anna:

think you've been sick a couple times.

Phoebe:

I, anyway, I think I've

anna:

going.

Phoebe:

Anyway, it's been amazing. I just have had like a virus of some sort. it has been pretty bad. It hasn't been like, particularly gentle. I have been not really running,

anna:

Mm-hmm.

Phoebe:

So I started getting sick on Thursday night. I did a session when I got to the Gold Coast, actually that was really fun session. It was like sunset. I loved it. I felt tired, but I was like, it's so much hotter here. Like, whatever. And then that night I was going to bed and I was like, oh, my throat's sore. I don't feel great. And I woke up in the morning. I felt terrible. I, I had been intending to do my longie that morning'cause I knew all weekend I'd be with my sister. I was like, I just wanna clear my running schedule. just get it done. And I was really excited for that long run. I love Gold Coast. Long runs. I've been feeling just so good in my long runs recently. I've been really enjoying them. I was like, this is gonna be amazing. had my gels. I was gonna get up, do this beautiful run, sunrise Swim, et cetera. Anyway, I woke up and I was like, no, no, no. This isn't what you do. You don't long run when you're sick, you rest. Went back to sleep. didn't run at all Over the weekend, I just did two very gentle jog, walk arounds, 30 minutes kind of thing. Monday morning felt okay, but rested. Tuesday did a little run, didn't feel great. So I just went home. Wednesday rested again nice because I woke up and I intended to go for a run then I woke up and I was like, oh actually don't feel great. And I was sitting on the couch and I was like, you know, I've never really asked myself this question. I was like, what do you feel like doing? what do you really feel like doing? And my body listened to that and was like, I feel like doing Pilates.

anna:

Pilates.

Phoebe:

little Pilates class. So I took myself off for a little Pilates class and was really nice. Anyway. Thursday now just finally getting back into running feeling okay. But I've had almost a week mostly Which I'm pretty proud of.

anna:

Yeah. Well done.

Phoebe:

you.

anna:

of you.

Phoebe:

Big pat on the back for that. Um, being packed

anna:

on the back. And you know what? I am a fortune teller in my spare time and I reckon you are not gonna be sick for three weeks again,

Phoebe:

three weeks. But you reckon I'll get sick again in three weeks?

anna:

no, no. As in like, you know how your, these colds, they normally just

Phoebe:

yes, So long.

anna:

I don't reckon it will last

Phoebe:

Okay. I thought you were giving me an op, like fortune I think you've got three weeks helping

anna:

You're three weeks

Phoebe:

was like, excuse me.

anna:

All right. Should we get into the,

Phoebe:

we do it? moly. I'm actually nervous.

anna:

same. We have a lot to cover

Phoebe:

and we've got a big, I feel like we have a big weight on our shoulders. I genuinely do because I think we have both through learning about this. Become so aware of this, untalked about element of the games that we now feel this responsibility to share, to

anna:

to share it,

Phoebe:

and to unpack.

anna:

All right. Kick us off What are the enhanced games?

Phoebe:

Yeah, so just a quick explainer for those who aren't familiar the enhanced games are a new Olympic style competition. And the difference, or the core difference as they say, is that performance enhancing drugs are allowed under medical supervision. so their, mission is pushing the limits of human performance through science. tell us a bit, do you know much about who actually started this?

anna:

Yeah. So an Aussie. Is one of the founders, Aaron dea, who is a lawyer and entrepreneur. and he's the driving force behind the enhanced games. Then there's also, oh, you have set me up with There's also Christian anger me, he's a co-founder and the lead investor of the games. he's a German billionaire and known for his ventures in biotech psychedelics and longevity

Phoebe:

Yeah, it kind of, I think it goes without saying they're both very like successful businessmen in their own right. I would say Aaron in particular is super charismatic and he's really compelling to listen to. he like, paints this

anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

compelling picture of the future. Like it's easy to listen to him and be like, whoa. He

anna:

the face of it for sure. even at their launch event last week, he was sort of the main one that was

Phoebe:

yeah. Yeah, I think so.

anna:

So why is it in the news at the moment?

Phoebe:

So, as we mentioned at the start, they have just announced the first enhanced games are scheduled. They've scheduled them. They're going to take place in Las Vegas in May, 2026. Another reason why they're gonna be, why they've been in the news is that they have had their first, record breaking performance. So a lot of the, hype around these games have been that they've said we're gonna break, specific world records being the a hundred meter sprint and a hundred meter freestyle. And if the first person to break those records using performance enhancing drugs gets a million dollars in prize money,

anna:

not just the first. Then if they're broken again, they get

Phoebe:

Oh, every time. Yeah. Yeah. So Greek swimmer, Christian gme recently broke or claimed to have broken the 50 minute freestyle rec record. He was obviously openly doping and he is also wearing a technical suit, which is not

anna:

Yeah. He's wearing one of those speed suits for anyone that watches the swimming quite a lot at the Olympics. You'll remember probably, I reckon it would've been around London, maybe 2012 or so, they had these speed suits that ended up being banned and'cause they were performance enhancing all the records were being broken. So he was wearing one of those as well as openly doping.

Phoebe:

Yes. so it has been in the news a bit recently and there is a lot of controversy around it. mostly around people saying is it ethical for athletes to do this and is it safe? and so one of the things we wanna talk about is why should you care? I think as we said, a lot of the messaging around this sounds really compelling, but as we've dug deeper, there is a really insidious underside that we don't feel like is being discussed openly right now.

anna:

Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, we alluded to in the intro they were just sort of scratching the surface and not really getting into some of the deeper issues everything that might go with it.

Phoebe:

Yeah. So if you are like us and you've heard of the games and you're kind of like, yeah, cool. I don't really agree with it or care about it, this isn't an episode for me, listen on.

anna:

Yeah. So we are gonna start off with arguments that are in favor of the enhanced games.

Phoebe:

So these are the arguments that this is basically their thesis for why they're doing the games And why they think that these games are going to be the future of not just sport, but performance and humanity in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah.

anna:

they say that everyone's already doping and the games will make it transparent and safe. There was a study, it was a survey with the United States Olympic team and they were anonymously asked who had taken a band, substance in the 12 months prior. interestingly, 10.8% of males said that they had, and 7.8% of females said that they had, which is a crazy number, particularly because I feel like if that many people are admitting to

Phoebe:

yeah, there's

anna:

Probably a huge amount more. So they're saying that the enhanced game argues that transparency, medical supervision, make doping safer, that the current hypocritical underground approach, they'll have doctors that test and make sure the athletes are safe. Also, All the drugs are approved by the FDA, which is the Food and Drug Administration. And so that's to say that the drugs are illegal from a sports point of view, but they're not illicit drugs.

Phoebe:

They're, banned from a

anna:

banned from the banned,

Phoebe:

yeah. that's right. I think the stat that the founders and that their ambassador athletes refer to constantly is that 44% of Olympians have used enhancements. the study that they're actually referring to is done from a survey at an athletics world champs in 2011, which did say 44, 40 4% of them anonymously admitted to using it. Which is insane. Like crazy amounts. it's obviously doesn't actually mean 44% of Olympians aren't necessarily doing it, but it does indicate potentially a huge systemic problem with band substances being used.

anna:

Yeah. And also underground, they, each athlete that, competes in the enhanced games, they have to nominate their own individual doctor, that is going to follow them and be on side throughout to take all the tests to make sure they're kind of like within normal range and everything. They're also, doing a lot of screening before people are actually allowed to compete. So, Aaron actually said there's a rigorous protocol will ensure athletes are safe. All athletes need to appoint a doctor who's responsible for their care prior to and during the games. Health testing, blood testing, heart and brain screening will take place for every athlete.

Phoebe:

Yeah, that's right. So yeah, basically the first argument that they make, argument number one is everyone's already doping, so why don't we just make it transparent and safe? Their second argument is all essentially about that the economics of the Olympics are broken and it's no longer compelling for athletes, host cities, et cetera. So basically they're saying that, the only people who really make huge amounts of money are people on the, own the Olympics and run the Olympic

anna:

Yeah. The IOC and then

Phoebe:

also the broadcasting channels and the broadcasting channels. athletes aren't paid to participate in the Olympics by default. Yeah.

anna:

Which is, I mean, they have a compelling case there, which is true. the average earnings for an American Olympian they've said is$30,000. That isn't actually I dunno where they got that number from. So who, knows. It is pretty interesting though. So research shows that for the 2021 2024 Olympiad, the IOCs commercial revenues reached$7.7 billion according to the news market. a substantial proportion of the revenue is redistributed to Olympic movement and including National Olympic Committees. But none of that is actually distributed right from the IOC directly to the athletes. Now Australia, for example, We brought in medal incentive funding scheme. So at the last Olympics, gold medalist that represented Australia received a bonus of$20,000. silver was 15 and bronze was$10,000. it's just that is that is, it's so hard to get an Olympic medal. Yeah.

Phoebe:

I know. I they're just assuming that these people are, that obviously this isn't gonna fund them. And I think that's the argument of the enhanced games is basically this is not, most Olympians, aren't full-time professional athletes. So we will create a system that pays them really fairly. And I do think that is so far, that's one of the most compelling points. Yeah. from an

anna:

Yeah. They also promise a more sustainable business model. So less fluff, they'll cut the sports that people are less interested

Phoebe:

Well they believe people

anna:

that they believe. Yeah. which also will then reduce the number of stadiums and

Phoebe:

they need. Yeah.

anna:

And they don't really believe in a host city. They believe in using stadiums that are already

Phoebe:

Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna come back to actually their, their true business model later on, as, I don't think most mainstream media is really covering the, their actual business model and what's driving their revenue, but you're gonna wanna hear about it. So their third argument, which I think is one of the, one of the like interesting ones philosophical is that it's gonna be more entertaining.

anna:

Yeah. So they've said that humans are wired to want to watch the best. You're not gonna wanna watch the best natural player, you're gonna wanna watch the best absolute player, even if that person is enhanced.

Phoebe:

essentially what they're promising is faster, stronger, more extreme feats, breaking records, pushing limits, creating spectacle. They believe that the reason we watch sport is because we want to watch the fastest and strongest performance is possible, and they believe this is an avenue that allows us to do that. One of the other big changes they're making from the Olympics is that they don't believe that it should be a games where you represent your country and it's a nationalistic thing. They want it to be totally individual because they think Olympics becomes too political. there's no representing Australia medal tally or anything. It's just completely individual. Yeah.

anna:

I don't know if you saw this, but Aaron said it at the launch event last week, that the enhanced gains are not a competition. They are a movement. We are embracing the full spectrum of human potential. That begins with transparency, science, and choice. He went on to say that we will look back in 50 years and realize biology was never the ceiling, only the starting line.

Phoebe:

Interesting. Well, that kind of, that actually fades really nicely into the fourth they're doing the games is this whole point around human enhancement is the future. That is very much their belief. The founders come from a biotech, pharmaceutical background. They believe that enhancement is inevitable. they believe that themselves and these athletes are pioneers. They believe in a future where humans live forever. Yeah. And they say that they are creating the next generation of super humans. Mm.

anna:

Can't argue with that. No. Or can

Phoebe:

Or can we or can we? So

anna:

segue once again. two good segues in a row.

Phoebe:

Wow. We're on fire.

anna:

know. So we are going to now, explain the most common arguments against the enhanced

Phoebe:

I'd actually say not, not even the most common. I feel like the most common argument is this ethical question of should you take banned substances or not? And is it safe? I think the first argument we wanted to make is that they have a big position around. It's more fair just open it up, and I think we both don't agree that that is gonna create a fairer future for sport.

anna:

No. Because there's still limitations always to what you can get your hands on. And just because they're being transparent about what they're taking, that doesn't mean that some people are gonna there's always gonna be a scientist developing the next big thing that only some gonna have people's bodies react differently to different things. I just don't. that that's ever,

Phoebe:

I think if you look at why doping regulations exist, they don't exist to put a limit on. Human potential, which is what they frame it as. They exist to create fairness. They exist to create an even playing field because, and, and obviously safety reasons, but largely it's basically let's take this component out of the picture so we can have the fairest playing field where anyone from any background theoretically can become the best in the world. And I think that's why it's a lot of what we love about sport this story that we get these stories from anyone, from any background. Obviously we know that's not exactly true. People access to better coaching infrastructure. It's not perfect. But I think once you add in this element of you actually also need access to few doctors in the world who understand and can safely prescribe performance enhancing drugs. Mm-hmm. That completely makes it unfair all of a sudden.

anna:

Yeah. I will say though, I know that you were sort of speaking about why we truly love sport is it's more of an even playing field and everything. But in recent years more so with long distance running because that's what we're super interested in. I'm not really that phased with world records that are getting beaten or broken, sorry, I should say because I just feel like now I always am looking at things with kind of a negative lens or a suspicious lens. I actually, I don't think things are fair now. Yeah.

Phoebe:

I don't, I don't think they are either. And actually that's a good thing to say. I don't think any of our arguments against that enhanced games, our arguments for the current system. Yeah. I think there are heaps of problems with the way Olympics run with how rampant doping is, but I don't think that that makes this a better solution

anna:

no, no. Definitely not. Yeah,

Phoebe:

I don't know. I think about, I. I know you've referenced running something that I thought about when I was thinking about how much more of a disadvantage that this would put people at. was thinking about the Matildas documentary. So we obviously idolized that team a and so many of the women in that team came from single parent families, afford to go on camps, and they just through their own incredible, determination and hard work and discipline and made it. And those stories are amazing. that is what brings your heart into these

anna:

Oh, it's the stories behind it for That's what is absolutely amazing about that's, I think we've spoken about before. That's why you get so invested. Well that's why even when we were, you know, doing the armchair Olympic because we're so invested in the athletes,'cause we kind of feel like we know them because we them on ins. We don't know them we follow them on Instagram and everything. But we wanted to make everyone else realize that they're just humans and because it would make them more well. So Yeah. Completely agree.

Phoebe:

So, to come back to this, it's not that we're saying that the current system is fair by any means, but I don't think you make it fair by getting rid of those rules. And I think sport is built on a foundation of you need to believe that it's an even playing field or you lose that narrative arc and ability to get excited about it.

anna:

Yeah. I feel like you lose hope and if you've completely lost that, then I feel like it's just a really sad

Phoebe:

Yeah.

anna:

Yeah. the second point is, will it actually be more entertaining? So will they even be faster, is the main question.'cause obviously at the moment, there's only been four athletes announced and none of them are sort of the gold medal winners or even medal winners of the most recent Olympics.

Phoebe:

So this is definitely in order to answer that question of will it be more entertaining?'cause that's kind of their initial thesis. It's like, first of all, are they actually gonna be faster? Because well we know they will. Like he's already broken the world record, however, I mean, he broke it by a few millisecond, so it's not like noticeably faster. Oh, I, I

anna:

like you can't really argue that though.'cause it's a 50 meter swimming race, it takes 20 seconds.

Phoebe:

As in you can't see that he's faster. Like you wouldn't be able to tell just

anna:

Oh, right. No, no,

Phoebe:

noticeably, like visibly

anna:

sorry, sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe:

so obviously he's broken the record for sure. so basically what, the founders of the game said is that enhancements can add up to 5%. and I think some of the other factors that will, I. Increased performance is that some of these people won't need to work part-time outside of sport. Yeah. To be fair, I a lot of the record breakers probably aren't working part-time anyway. Overall that would be, if they're getting funded fully to do this full-time, we know that would have positive, impacts on their performance. And then, I guess the other thing is like, not everyone's gonna get faster. James Magnuson, who's the face of these games in many ways has gotten two seconds slower. Pretty yeah.

anna:

Yeah. I read, so he did a, training block where he was using the, band substances, just to have a practice almost to see sort of what it was like before he does it before the actual games in May. and he was saying that he put on like 15 kilos or something. Yeah. And like all muscle. But he said that wasn't actually, complimentary to like his swimming. he, he didn't need that. he did sort of remark of how great he felt each day and sort of felt like he was just bouncing outta

Phoebe:

he felt great. But I think the point here is yes, they probably will be faster, but. Not by much.

anna:

No, no, exactly. Yeah.

Phoebe:

so I guess the next question

anna:

A quick word from today's sponsor, pill performance have been kind enough to treat us to some of their new creatine monohydrate, supplement and FEBs. I think you're loving it.

Phoebe:

I'm loving it, as everyone will know, because I've been talking about it for the last couple of weeks. Something I haven't spoken about yet though, when it comes to creatine that I think is really, really important because actually two things I'll say. Some of the things that I've heard listeners say to me mm-hmm. Is, I'm worried, I feel bloated. Yeah.

anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

What's really important to know because that is a quite a common narrative. Um, Stacey Sims, who we've referenced on the show before, she's a world leading expert women's data research around sport and performance. She articulates this really well, but she basically says, if you don't go through the creatine loading protocol, which means a lot of people when they're athletes, when they first start using creatine, will basically quadruple the dose over the first kind of few days five days even, and then they go to a normal dose. And in that case, you can get some water bloating in your

anna:

bloating, muscle. Yeah. The retention.

Phoebe:

However, if you don't do that loading, if you just start taking one scoop a day or then you're fine. You don't get, so I've to take it for months. I've never noticed it. The other thing I did wanna

anna:

famously don't get bloated.

Phoebe:

but I have been on the record to say that I don't get bloated. The thing I wanted to say is, one of the amazing things about creatine is it is one of the only supplements that there have genuinely been comprehensive research done on women. And women at all stages of their life. It's really common. It's much more common, do research on women after their fertile years. There has been research done through the entire lifecycle

anna:

yeah, yeah.

Phoebe:

And actually it's been shown to be a really positive thing when it comes to menstrual health. It can help with period pain. there's lot evidence that it can actually be a really positive factor as if we didn't need another reason to be interested in creatine. I just want, if you're listening and you haven't looked into creatine, I genuinely think do your own radio research because, there's a lot of stigma around it that. doesn't need to be there

anna:

valid. Yeah. Thanks again, pillar for making this episode of Cheeky Possible. If you would like a little discount code, please use the code Cheeky at checkout for 15% off your first order.

Phoebe:

Thank you Pillow for making this episode of Cheeky Possible. Nice. so I guess the next question though is being the fastest, does that even matter? because they say it is being the fastest and being the strongest. That is why people watch sport. And I think we were discussing that this is often the argument you hear from people who still believe that men's sport is more inherently engaging and interesting, the women's sport purely because of the fact that they're faster and stronger. Matildas Yeah, that's all we need say about I feel like the best argument against that perspective is actually to watch the video of Christian, who's the Greek swimmer who broke the record. Watch the video of him breaking it. If, if the argument is it's purely speed, that is interesting to watch, then watch that because it is the most underwhelming video. Oh,

anna:

it's so boring.

Phoebe:

by himself in a pool. Yeah.

anna:

yeah. He's literally swimming by himself in the pool. There's no one in

Phoebe:

one's there.

anna:

You can't, because obviously he's it's not relative to anyone else. You don't really know how he's going. There's just a lot of

Phoebe:

Yeah. Yeah. I,

anna:

so, it's underwhelming to watch. Yes,

Phoebe:

agree. And so, I think we feel like that narrative, of drugs equals faster. The novelty of that will wear off. It's not a long term narrative in and of itself.

anna:

No, no. And it's about what you were saying before, it's about the contest and the narrative of the athletes themselves as individuals. So for some sort of random person to just come out like, we don't know anything about him, but we're not interested

Phoebe:

Mm. And,

anna:

Like I know that's only speaking for both of us, like I love swimming. I couldn't care less about Yeah. Watching

Phoebe:

Well I think what it, we feel like it kind of comes down to is when you are watching elite sport, you wanna feel like you're watching the best human talent in the world Yeah. And in that sense, I feel like what matters in these games is are they going to be able to actually attract the best athletes?

anna:

Do you reckon they are? Uh,

Phoebe:

well, I mean so far they haven't, and I think that is actually worth saying. They keep saying they've got people signed up. They haven't announced, but they obviously did announce their biggest four. of those four, James Magnuson is probably the most well known. He was a world champ in 2013. The rest of them have been to Olympics for various swimming events. Yeah. Gotten to Olympic finals, some of them.

anna:

I remember.'cause they're saying that they want this to be a long term thing, not just a two thing. and part of me wonders this might be completely wrong, but I think that if some people start to do it, then more people

Phoebe:

yeah.

anna:

of normalize it in a sense. And I do think that we might see maybe not necessarily the, most recent, Record holders or medal winners. But those people that are probably a bit more on the fringe, maybe they still are actually working part-time in order to like pay their way to keep competing at the sport. I think that for them, it's a all, athletes that are gonna compete, they're all on a base six figure salary. So that for an a, for a struggling athlete that is in, that's insane. So I feel like it might get a lot of the sort of fringe,

Phoebe:

they say, yeah, they say that the The athletes who are most interested are reti, retiring athletes the end of their career and who wanna sort of have another

anna:

one last hoorah.

Phoebe:

there's some comparisons to live golf. live also, quite controversial. it's a new Saudi backed golf league. Yeah. That is essentially competing with the PGA, which is kind of the traditional golf league. Yeah.

anna:

And is it right to say that if you compete and live golf, then you're not

Phoebe:

compete in the other but the live golf league has offered.

anna:

on

Phoebe:

Unbelievable amounts of money. golfers like, millions

anna:

out of this world. Yeah. so much more

Phoebe:

it's different, it's a, it's a worthwhile comparison.'cause obviously athletes are gonna make some decisions based on money, which they're well within their rights to do. But also it's not the exact same'cause like I think I heard in one of the interviews they say a hundred thousand dollars for these athletes, which isn't necessarily life changing amounts of money. And you are also asking them to take performance enhancing drugs, which we don't have huge amounts

anna:

But I feel like as a scale in comparison to what they're used to, like the golfers on the PGA are used to these enormous of money. So none of them really need. Like

Phoebe:

But no

anna:

even money

Phoebe:

ever needs

anna:

But that's what I mean. I just feel like it's a comparison. It's quite relative.

Phoebe:

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I think, When we look at why James Magnuson did it, he's obviously come and he's spoken on a bunch of podcasts. He always talks about the same things at the start, which is I wanna like prove what I can do. I wanna reach a late performance. But it's funny, later on in, I was listening to a podcast he did with and Dylan friends, and at the end when they're really talking, they're really kind of getting into it. And he says, why is men, do we blindly accept that we're getting old and gray and losing our sex drive? And I feel like this with everyone who does it and with the founders starts to really creep in, in the back end of these interviews is this narrative of men. Yeah. Yeah. And the sex drive thing comes in quite a bit as

anna:

Yeah. about that.

Phoebe:

you don't need to say, but I think one of the questions, I mean, beforehand we were talking about. what is their thesis for why people watch sport? And ours is obviously quite different. And I think there's also an interesting question here of what's their thesis on why athletes care and what drives athletes. Obviously money's part of that, but one of the reasons that I don't think you or I have good confidence that they understand what motivates athletes is. We were listening to, what I feel like was behind enemy lines in our research for this. Anna and I listened to a two hour long podcast with Joe Rogan and founders of the Enhanced Game, which was just a, it

anna:

eye opening,

Phoebe:

it was a real journey, but, I'm gonna play a brief clip that articulates kind of the way that the founders of the enhanced games talk about Olympic athletes and what they think Olympic athletes care about.

olympics:

Okay, go to the Athlete's Village. It's a dump, right? They had these like cardboard beds, these paper thin walls. It's noisy. Everyone's having sex all the time. Interesting. So they make the athletes stay at the athlete's village and it's just real loud and crazy and they're partying. Yeah, that's right. Because the vast majority of athletes who go to the Olympics have no chance of meddling. Right. Oh, and they're there. So they're there for the party. They're just there, for the party,

anna:

I don't think we even need to comment on

Phoebe:

that, that is what they think of Olympic

anna:

That is why people train all day every day.

Phoebe:

Yeah. But so ba basically if what we said before, which is like to believe that people are really gonna engage with this as a sport, we have to believe that they'll be able to get the best athletes in the world. Nothing that they have done so far from the athletes they've attracted to the way they talk about athletes, to the actual best athletes in the world who have come out. Openly. And said they would never do this Cam McAvoy. actually just a few days ago after that world record is broken, He'd been pretty silent on this front. And as opposed to James Magnuson who had kept saying, I'm trying to get Cam to do it.

anna:

Cam McAvoy is the

Phoebe:

winner Paris. A hundred meter.

anna:

meter.

Phoebe:

50 meter. So fastest man in the world over that

anna:

Yeah.

Phoebe:

And he's just come out completely against it. He basically thinks, that that world record is, that it was broken. That that's totally meaningless. He just thinks the whole thing is hubristic and unsafe.

anna:

So our Golden girl, Arian Tus said, I've never been motivated by money. If they offered me$10 million, I would never put my body through that. I've got a pretty strong stance on this. I'm not afraid to speak out. It doesn't sit well with me morally. Yeah. I mean, yeah. They're two of the

Phoebe:

best the their yeah.

anna:

Swimmers in the world and they've come out condemning the games.

Phoebe:

So do, I mean, I do agree with you. I think that in time, more athletes will get involved. That make think that will definitely happen, but I just don't think so far they've shown evidence that they're gonna pull together an amazing

anna:

not. Yeah. I think that there is probably some, I don't definitely think that that will happen, but I can. I imagine that some people would maybe want to see how it plays out and then in four, eight years down the track or whatever, they're like, okay, I'll give this a go. Yeah. it does kind of get normalized sense, then they would be willing to go down that path.

Phoebe:

So to step back, we've talked about, we don't think it's necessarily more fair. I definitely don't think it's gonna be more entertaining than the Olympics. I mean, I do think there's gonna be a certain shock factor to it that will make people curious and wanna watch Absolutely. Don't doubt that at all. The same reason people are interested in Eunice book of World records, but I don't think that it's going to create the same, fanaticism I mean I do think they're gonna probably some great storytelling around well. saw Ridley Scott's doing the documentary on it Yeah. Yeah. So I do think they'll tell great stories. Just don't think they actually really understand why people

anna:

I just like, yeah. I just feel like nothing can compete with the Olympics. I don't know. I hope that, I don't regret saying that.

Phoebe:

but I think the final thing we want to talk about here is actually the biggest, which is, I don't know if you are like us and you've been sitting here through this whole podcast being like, what about the women? That is all women. That is something that we, throughout all our reading and listening, we could not hear mention of women. It felt like in every podcast, in every article, no one was asking about female athletes. No. Female athletes had said they're involved. There's just no representation from women at all. No.

anna:

No.

Phoebe:

And then finally, this

anna:

is pretty funny.

Phoebe:

The most unlikely, it's not funny.

anna:

It's pretty

Phoebe:

Well, it's most, yeah, the most unlikely of women Champions of all asked about it. And that was Joe Rogan. So we are gonna play you a clip. This is one hour and 50 minutes into the two hour episode.

anna:

it. Is worth warning the listeners that Joe Rogan expresses himself in pretty crude and at times offensive language. It's Rogan's voice that you'll hear at the start posing the question and then answering him is the founder of the enhanced games. Aaron,

joe:

Another problem would be when you add testosterone to females, you fundamentally change them. So you don't just change their ability to perform, you change the way their voice sounds, you could make them sterile. When you're adding exogenous testosterone to women at a very high level, it has pretty profound permanent changes. As adding testosterone to men do. Right. Sort of. But i'm sure you're aware of the Eastern B block. Yeah. Uh, women in, I mean, some of the records still to this day haven't been broken, and these women were just Jews to the tits, no pun intended, because they were trying to win. And so there's been some interviews of these women that were forced to do this and these. Communist countries and, you know, it devastated them. They, they became infertile. They, you know, developed all sorts of problems, ovarian cysts and all sorts of things that were connected to the use of exogenous testosterone at very high levels. Yeah. And, and one of which is a lack of science, proper scientific research to develop compounds that are performance enhancing specifically for women. Right. But you wouldn't stop them from taking testosterone. Right. Uh, well, there is, right? I mean, that's, you know. Then you're saying to these women, in order to compete, you have to essentially transition, mm-hmm. That's part of the process. That's not reversible. And when you do that to women, Just to, to compete. It's a little bit different, right? but isn't that an individual choice? It is an individual choice, yeah. But all women in the enhanced games will have to make that choice then to become men.

Phoebe:

I slightly edited that segment just to make it more brief, but I mostly cut out the relevant bits of conversation they had.

additional audio:

So it is also worth saying that, obviously Joe Rogan expressed some pretty rogue and problematic views that were not necessarily aligned with. But what we did think was interesting was that he, raised and breached this discussion of what are the actual physiological implications of taking these. Performance enhancing drugs on women. And how is that different? What are we asking of women that is different to what we are asking of men?

Phoebe:

One of the things that was mentioned during, was that example of the women, in the games in, the eighties and nineties. That actually wasn't an example that I'd heard of beforehand. But, you had Anna, do you wanna tell us a little bit more about it?

anna:

Yeah, so when he says Eastern block, he means the, group of communist countries in central and Eastern Europe. They were all aligned with the Soviet Union during the Cold War and during the eighties and nineties, some of these countries had programs that actually facilitated the administration of performance enhancing drugs to the athletes under the guise of giving the athletes vitamins.

Phoebe:

Oh, so they, they were pretending they were giving them

anna:

Yeah, they were telling. Yeah. And a lot of these athletes were underage and they were telling them their vitamins and if you don't have them, then you're off the team. And not just off the team, refusal by the athletes to comply meant not only that, but they'd also lose access to basic rights like housing, jobs and travel luxuries it was. Insane. And,

Phoebe:

And, and what happened to, to those athletes, and particularly maybe those women

anna:

Well, it was actually all laid bare during the Berlin doping trials that were held between 1998 and 2000. A lot of these women ended their athletic careers as teenagers, which is crazy. So to think that. They started, this all happened when they were teenagers and then they ended up retiring when they were teenagers. and that was due to acne, deepened voices, excess growth of leg hair and pubic hair in large clitoris, menstrual pain and skeletal pain. Long term. This is when it gets really, really sad. these athletes suffered from hepatitis, heart disease, liver tumors, diabetes and liver cancer. It is also thought that many of them actually died prematurely from these illnesses. many of these women also went on to have recurrent miscarriages and also gave birth to children with club feet, or other defects. So the implications of these female athletes on steroids,'cause a lot of the time they were given anabolic steroids was massive. So to think that now people are going to willingly take part,

Phoebe:

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, I guess, and obviously they would say, and we would certainly hope that they're going to go about it in a much more conscientious and health considerate way this time. The reality is, as the founders literally said in that snippet, there is very, very little research on the effects of these drugs on women, especially in a performance enhancing context. And I feel like considering that example, and I mean almost the last significant exposure that the world had to, this was that example you just spoke through and considering. they're going around saying that they're gonna push the limits of the human race. I would've liked to have heard a much more considered breakdown of their approach when it comes to women. Instead, what we heard was men have to go through changes too. And essentially a total hand waving of the problem. Yeah,

anna:

exactly.

Phoebe:

like, you listen to this entire, to our episode, they have thought so in depth about every single element of this. And then there is finally one question about, well, what about female athletes? Yeah. And they're just like, oh, well it's kind of the same.

anna:

Oh yeah. It's up to them. Yeah. I think it also brings up a broader issue of systemic reinforcement, of gender imbalance. who in everything, but in particularly sports, they have designed what they proclaim to be a global sports platform, and it just reinforces that longstanding pattern in sport and tech where men are seen as the default and women are as a secondary or optional, or in this case, just. Not even thought of. A lot of what they talk about as well in that interview. they're so passionate about biohacking and everything and it's all just men, men, there's nothing.

Phoebe:

they actually refer to athletes throughout that interview as the guys, the

anna:

The guys,

Phoebe:

as in, as in the future athletes that will be participating. So, yeah, I agree. I think that's the first. Major flag is oh, okay, they're not really building a new future for sport. They are creating

anna:

this

Phoebe:

testing ground

anna:

for,

Phoebe:

men. The second thing is obviously just the neglect when it comes to thinking about the risks for female physiology. There is a really, really strong focus on testosterone. Throughout all the communication around this, and when you actually look into the difference, the way that female bodies react to testosterone versus men, it doesn't account for that at all physically or reproductively. And not only is that just showing a lack of care around women's health.

anna:

It basically

Phoebe:

when they're asked about oh, how do we think societally that will impact these women? I. Aaron just says, well, men go through changes too. Just completely misunderstanding the point here of what you're asking women to do is fundamentally different for men and he hasn't thought about it because he doesn't care because for him, the premise of these games is to get the fastest, strongest athletes. And that's not gonna be women.

anna:

No. Which I, and, but I just feel like it's so dangerous in so many ways because as we sort of spoke about before, how the money might draw a lot of people in that obviously is females will get drawn into that as well, but be at a, higher risk of putting their body and on the line, which I just find absolutely. so scary.

Phoebe:

I think then the,

anna:

the

Phoebe:

the other thing that now I think of every single time I hear him talking is the, framing of the games around. This is about maximizing human performance. This is about exploring the limits of human performance. This is about pushing human potential. stop saying human potential. You're interested in male potential. Yeah. If you are interested in exploring the limits of human performance, women's athletic potential has barely been explored

anna:

There's literally been no research done. there's decades and decades of underfunding and underrepresentation in sports science. put money towards that. if there were truly this future facing platform, they would embrace female enhancement as a frontier, not a footnote.

Phoebe:

Yeah. Yep. I completely agree. It's very like, I don't know. How do you feel when you hear this and it kind of sinks in for you that it's literally just looking at how we progress the world for men.

anna:

I just think it's completely backwards. Even if you, look at any of the enhanced games photos or any kind of media, you only see men. it's just, it's so old school. But I feel like they kind of have this broader theme of techno progress as a cover for actual just male-centric design

Phoebe:

It makes me sad because on the one hand I was seeing on Instagram this week, the female athlete project, data about women's sport, the growth in women's sport, how incredible it is. They're finally starting to get more funding TV rights to media coverage. And then I see this and they have raised ludicrous amounts of money and it is just going to be another step apart between men's sports

anna:

I know. Yeah. It's kind of like, one step forward, two steps back. Like I feel like in the last decade it's been so exciting. I know we just touched on the Matildas before, but even at the Olympics, you

Phoebe:

know? Yeah.

anna:

our, the females are just so incredible. and then even a FL, on a more local level, there's now the women's league and little kids. Can go to footy on the weekend, which when we were growing up, I always wanted to do that, but

Phoebe:

yeah,

anna:

Yeah. And like that is so sort of exciting, and inspiring. And then this comes along and kind of, I just feel it almost is just like shoving women back into the little box

Phoebe:

Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, it's, it's a good thing to keep in mind if you're ever listening to them talk about these games and the progress they wanna make for humanity. Because they're not talking about all of humanity. They're talking about men, that's the re whatever they say, that is what they're actually doing. And that's what their behaviors have shown. So on that front, let's talk a little bit about what do you think will happen with the enhanced gameses? What do you think the future is?

anna:

I honestly reading all the stuff about the. International Olympic Committee and everything, I think it will be good in a sense to give the Olympics some competition and I hope that in a way it makes the IOC level up in the sense of reimbursement of athletes and maybe even I don't know, I just feel like the Olympics could be done a little bit better. Even how the host cities are just constantly losing money. Like feel like there are a few things that need to kind of be reshuffled and rethought and I

Phoebe:

maybe is a good prompt

anna:

this will maybe be the push that they need. do you actually think that they'll succeed? well what do you think, what do you think success for them looks like?

Phoebe:

Okay. This is one of the most interesting parts of the whole discussion, is that their goal is not actually about sport at all. I'm actually gonna play one more clip from a different podcast where, the founder Aaron talks about what their business model is.

cycling one:

so our business model is a lot more like Red Bull. So Red Bull uses sports as a marketing tool for a performance handset, which in this case is a$1 drink, and in our case is more like a$3,000 a year annual subscription to performance medicine, and so we can recycle that capital to pay athletes better, so that we can market and sell more drugs, and then recycle that capital into drug discovery And you only need to look at the, company Nova Nordisk, and the Ozempic and GLP one drugs, which have added$1 trillion to the Marvin capitalization of Nova Nordisk. Now, the Nordics is the largest company in Europe today, and I believe we can exceed the scale of Nova Nordisk. Because if a 40-year-old athlete can swim faster than Michael Phelps or run faster than a same bolt ever could, every middle aged guy in the world is going to wake up and say, what is that man on? And how quickly can I get it inside of me? And I don't care how much it costs.

anna:

Well, I just think it shows that, for the founders it's less so about the sport. they're both interested in tech and biotech and it's more just them trying to make money.

Phoebe:

Yeah. Make huge amounts of money. it's actually crazy when you go onto their website. You and I both did

anna:

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Phoebe:

one of the first things that comes up is it's these four really athletic looking people. Tour the women actually. And it's this, your path to peak performance become an enhanced founding member for$99 get guaranteed priority access to our expert guided telehealth platform inspired by elite athletic achievement. So what we think. We're watching is actually a marketing tool for them to be able to push what they believe is about to be the biggest industry in the entire world, which is enhancement pharmaceuticals. And they want to create and normalize and they openly say this and actually so do their athletes. I heard James Magnuson say this in interview two, as soon as people see these athletes doing it, looking great, looking healthy, I should say specifically men, the language is always about men. they see this as a way that they can completely in my mind, make humans with the wealth to do so, more obsessed with looks than they ever have been in the past. Completely feed into that. Yeah. Is that It's anti, I actually think the anti-aging conversation is way more interesting than the aesthetic. which is what a lot of this actually is. Do I think they'll be successful? I actually don't know if, and I don't want them to be. And like, this is what I think is the true moral dilemma in all of this is we think we're just watching humans do some weird stuff. Actually, the more attention we give it, the more we are leaning into this machine that they're creating, which is basically gonna allow them to push enhancing drugs. One of the things which I did find interesting is last year they set out and had a bit of publicity theory and they said they wanted to raise$300 million. That was in July last year, in February this year they announced that they'd raised double digit million dollars. So they fallen really short of their fundraising goal. Which I actually think is interesting'cause I thought these are the, some of the most well connected men in the world, that they would be fine. Also their round was led by Donald Trump Jr.

anna:

Mm.

Phoebe:

think it is important put

anna:

Yeah. so sorry, you can't, you can't sit on the fence. Do you think it will be successful or not? As in, do you think it would be a long-term event? Yeah.

Phoebe:

Yep. I think it will be, I don't think it's gonna be hard for'em to get TV rights for it. I think people will watch it. do I think it'll be the movement? They think it'll be, no. Yeah. I hope in my heart of hearts that it, I sincerely hope that it won't. Why? What do you think?

anna:

I tend to agree. It might be on tv.

Phoebe:

Oh, there'll be a market for

anna:

Yeah. But I don't think it's gonna be a competitor with the Olympics, like they're saying, and I'm the same. I just hope that that's not the case. In saying that I do wanna,'cause I feel hypocritical. If it is televised next year, I'm intrigued. I

Phoebe:

yeah, I, I think we've said it, of course it would be intriguing. Yeah. I don't have any moral, ethical issue with just the idea of athletes of their own volition. If they've got the medical support getting involved with this and getting paid to do it. I have no issues with it. I don't think it's the most interesting thing in the world, but I'd probably be like, oh yeah, watch it for a bit.

anna:

No, I feel, I mean, I almost feel sorry for the athletes.'cause once again, I feel like they're the pawns

Phoebe:

Yeah. Well, when you look at this bigger system that they're part of, I think so. But I wish more media was focused on the true business model driving this and the discussion around is that a future that we want for the world? And I wish that more media was asking the question of, in what way will women be involved in these games and in what way is their health and safety gonna be compromised? And what does this mean for those athletes

anna:

one day. I think that is for the rundown this week. I loved that.

Phoebe:

Yeah.

anna:

was so,

Phoebe:

Wow. I hope

anna:

wow. I don't know, I just find this whole thing so fascinating.

Phoebe:

Yeah. I really hope that people listening found it, interesting as well. We'll include, a bunch of the links that we referenced in the show notes, but we would love to hear your thoughts. Were you aware of their, approach when it comes to women? Were you aware of the different impact that performance enhancing drugs, particularly testosterone have on women? were you aware of their business model? we just wanna know, are people talking about this? What kind of conversations are you all having?

anna:

yeah, exactly. Will

Phoebe:

Were you and it?

anna:

Yeah. We're done. We're done. That's it. an I love my new job as an investigative journalist, even though I

Phoebe:

Yeah. another sports topic you want us to investigate? Yeah, please. We're onto it. We're absolutely onto these people. Yeah.

anna:

We're actually gonna put up some Instagram stories. Just sort of polling people We wanna know your thoughts and you're feeling. So

Phoebe:

do it on Tuesday. We'll put out some stories. I know it's a really controversial topic already. And I think we've just added to the controversy. Yeah. We'll

anna:

Woohoo. Look out from Melbourne. Um, anyway, hope you have a great rest of your day and we can't wait to be in your ears next week.

Phoebe:

Bye.

anna:

Bye.