Cheeky Run Club

Race time calculators

• Phoebe Pincus

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Welcome to Monday cheeky chums! Lots on in today’s ep…

Ahead of Phoebe’s Gold Coast half-marathon, we’ve taken a look at Strava and Garmin’s race time predictors… how do they compare, what do they base their calculations off, and do we think either is accurate?

Then we’re diving into a listener question; our first go at answering a run-club related ‘Am I the Asshole?’. We can't wait to hear your thoughts on this one.

Then, to wrap it up, we share your best tips and tricks to help the oh-so-dreadful runner's knee.

LINKS:

·  Register for HERE our Gold Coast shakeout run with Lululemon

·  Check out our latest Substack: ‘What I didn’t like about my Oura ring + what I’ve learnt from it’

·  Check out Pilates instructor Alice Back’s Instagram

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, Tiktok, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

Music produced by Hugh Raper. Logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

Anna Audio:

Cheeky Run Club recognizes that every day we live, work, and run on aboriginal land.

Phoebe Audio:

This episode is sponsored by our new partner, Lululemon. Come and join us and the Lulu team for a shakeout run on the Gold Coast on Saturday, the 5th of July at 10:00 AM We can't wait to see you there.

Anna Audio:

Fun. We love life. Not a stress Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello, Phoebe. Hello Emma and hello listeners.

Phoebe Audio:

we are going to be talking about how to predict your race time. Specifically we'll be diving into the race time predictors from Garmin and Strava. We'll look at how they're calculated, which one is more accurate and which one you should be relying on when planning for a race. I have a half marathon coming up, so we'll look at what they're predicting for me and which one I should be relying on. Yeah. We are then going to have a segment of, am I the asshole? It's a submission from a listener. It's a running version. I saw it come through this week, but Anna hasn't seen it yet, so I'm keen to read it her and see what she thinks. And we'd love to get some more submissions running versions of Am I the Asshole?

Anna Audio:

I'm a little bit nervous and I'm worried it's probably something that I do. finally, we have also got a listener question about what to do if you have runner's knee. we also got answers from about a hundred listeners who've had knee before, including myself. So we'll go through that. But first of all, as always, let's kick it off with our notable runs of the week. Phoebe, give me your best.

Phoebe Audio:

run. My best run was my long run, so I had such a nice long run. This week. I ran with our friend Claudes and we decided to go on a bit of an adventure long run, like just locally. But we lately for long runs, for some reason, because we're constantly catering for all different. Lengths of runs. Yeah. There's normally like a two hour group, a 90 minute group and an hour group. Yeah. And so you kind of end up doing a lot of loops

Anna Audio:

A lot of the

Phoebe Audio:

which is honestly totally fine.

Anna Audio:

It's great socially.

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah. And once you're running you don't really, but I do miss that heading out and

Anna Audio:

Yeah. And seeing, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And also just going past something only once.

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah. Yes. I

Anna Audio:

Because I feel like you don't really get out of the parts where you normally run

Phoebe Audio:

the No,

Anna Audio:

if you are just

Phoebe Audio:

you don't, it's the, yeah, it's the same LCH as always. So instead we planned a brand new route that we've never done before. connected a few different of Melbourne's, best running trails. Yeah. And we just set out on this route that was a massive loop, which is also really fun to do. so it was a really nice run. And then at the end of it we met you and my brother and your husband. Yeah. For a coffee,

Anna Audio:

Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

Well, we always do pretty much post run, but it was so nice and we sat there. It was just a very un rushed

Anna Audio:

Yeah, it was really

Phoebe Audio:

it was really nice. Yeah.

Anna Audio:

was something about not rushing off. Yeah. Gosh. It's good. post Joe and I are getting jacked. Jim,

Phoebe Audio:

guys had just been getting jacked. Yeah. I think David had been walking Ted. Yes. And it was just a lovely way to kick off the weekend. Hmm. what was your best running adjacent activity of the week?

Anna Audio:

mine was, this is really hard. I have three activities that were all really, really good. Actually, I'm so happy. Four, four.

Phoebe Audio:

Wow.

Anna Audio:

Wow. but I am choosing this one because it is a new thing. I mentioned the other week that I went to a spin class and I really liked it. However, I have been to a different spin class studio and this is amazing. It's called Cycle Collective. It's in Richmond and my next door neighbors, actually, I bumped into them one time down the street. this was probably about eight months ago, maybe even, maybe a year ago, and they had just mentioned that they'd been there and they're like, you gotta come. I feel like you would really like it. And I was like, oh, for sure. Yeah. Anyway, fast forward, however long it's been, I actually turned up, and it's a spin studio that is purely just cycling. So I feel like majority of the people that were actually there so it was really rainy in Melbourne. Everyone that was there. they looked like cyclists in, in the sense that they had like the proper bibs on and everything. I and I as in the shorts that you actually ride in, I get the feeling that it's when cyclists don't actually wanna go out on the road, they go there. It was so understated and just laid back and cool. I walked in, you know how so many, which I get, there's a function to it, but so many places you go and there's a reception, it's all a big palava. You check

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah. Yeah.

Anna Audio:

you around. This guy was just on the bike. He was like. Hey mate, and I was like, oh, is this where I check in? And he's like, I guess, yeah. He was like, what's your name? And I was like, Anna. And he was like, oh, sick. Yeah, I'll pop you down here. Like set up the bike for me completely to my height and everything. And then sort of looked at me on it and was like, oh no, I have to move you a little bit.

Phoebe Audio:

Oh wow.

Anna Audio:

stuff. It was so specific it measured how fast you were going and what's, and then you also up on the TV had everyone else around you. Oh, So you kind of knew if you were dropping off or not. So you, it really kept you honest. And then also my next door neighbors were randomly there. Oh. And I was like, do you live here? Yeah. anyway, so yes, that was really fun. So Cycle Collective in Richmond. Give it a go if you haven't already. Phoebe, give me your worst.

Phoebe Audio:

my worst is a running relating activity. I actually learned something about myself this week. I thought, you know how I've been going to the gym recently.

Anna Audio:

Yeah,

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah. I talk about a lot of the podcast. I thought that I was kind of starting to like the gym. I feel like recently I've been like, oh yeah, I, I

Anna Audio:

I don't mind going, yeah,

Phoebe Audio:

mind going, but I learn this week something because

Anna Audio:

that you still hate it?

Phoebe Audio:

pretty much.'cause my AirPods broke this week. Oh. Tragically I put'em through

Anna Audio:

Oh that is really sad.

Phoebe Audio:

It is. Yeah. I put'em through a wash cycle actually, funnily enough, I put them through twice'cause I did a load and then I realized that this is actually, I shouldn't admit this'cause Sean's away. I'd be like, I'm just so chaotic with

Anna Audio:

everything, chocolate on the couch,

Phoebe Audio:

on the couch.

Anna Audio:

AirPods in the wash.

Phoebe Audio:

put a load on and washed it. And then I. I had a few extra things that I'd forgotten to put in, and rather than, because there was stuff in the dryer, rather than taking the the dryer rather than taking the stuff in the wash out, I just added the other things in rewashed.

Anna Audio:

That is

Phoebe Audio:

and so the. I should not admit that,

Anna Audio:

No,

Phoebe Audio:

but so the airports

Anna Audio:

actually, it's good. It makes you seem more human because I'm the always the one that's doing stupid stuff.

Phoebe Audio:

It's literally the lat thing I've ever done, but it's really come back to bite me because my AirPods then did two cycles. So like they're gone, like one of them's not working or the other one sound is coming through, but. It's quiet underneath a very high pitched, loud tone.

Anna Audio:

Oh yeah. Which just

Phoebe Audio:

So yeah, you can't do it. So anyway, that all happened on Tuesday. Tuesday night's when I normally go to the gym and I've realized I like got up to get ready for the gym. Then I was like. Oh, I don't wanna go because I'm not gonna be able to, I, yeah. I realize I don't like going to the gym. I like listening to audio

Anna Audio:

Mm.

Phoebe Audio:

Mm.

Anna Audio:

And I can do that

Phoebe Audio:

And literally it's actually is a nice excuse for me to do some listening to an

Anna Audio:

audiobook. Oh, definitely. Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

Like I don't really think about, I psyched myself out and I was like, I can't go. I don't want to go. And I just had no interest in going. So I made dinner and then I was like, no, just go 15 minutes. Yeah. Go in. And I went and I did 15 minutes and it was horrible.

Anna Audio:

Oh, I was gonna say, normally I used to do that when I had to convince myself to go to the gym. I was like, just go for 10 minutes. 10 minutes is better than nothing. And then I'd kind of like Get into

Phoebe Audio:

You get into it. But like they're just blaring, gyms suck. They're just blaring loud music. I literally, so I've been starting to keep a notes app on my phone with ideas to write about in the Substack, and I literally made a note on the way home, why do all gyms suck? Like they're just like, not nice. It's just loud music.

Anna Audio:

Yeah. And like fluorescent, there are certain mood. Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

And yeah, so anyway, my worst running related activity was this like 15 minute gym and the fact that my AirPods are

Anna Audio:

dead. Yeah. That's really sad.

Phoebe Audio:

I'm gonna need to purchase another pair, which is very annoying. What was your worst running related activity?

Anna Audio:

I don't really have much. I feel like I've had a pretty good week, although at the dog park the other day, um,

Phoebe Audio:

park

Anna Audio:

Ted was just excited and ran up to me and caught my arm of my puffer jacket and then ripped a hole and I kind, I thought it was fine. And then. Went to swimming the next day and then went to, I like coffee, got changed, went to coffee after. And everyone was laughing at me'cause I was sort of bleeding feathers. Oh no. Like you're like Hansel and Greta with the breadcrumb. You just know where you've been.'cause there's just feathers everywhere. And to the point where Dave and I were driving and he'd turned the heater on in the car and this, I had to turn it down'cause I was like, there's just feathers circulating.

Phoebe Audio:

Is that why I thought I saw some tape on your

Anna Audio:

jacket. Yeah, he's very kindly. Um, I mean, I could have definitely done it, but he, he didn't, he put some tape on my arm to protect and he even

Phoebe Audio:

Good

Anna Audio:

color matched. I saw

Phoebe Audio:

that.

Anna Audio:

green, It's

Phoebe Audio:

green. It's like a bright green jumper and like a light green tape.

Anna Audio:

Yeah. Do you know one of my colleagues had that audacity to ask me when I was leaving today.'cause I put it on and I was showing them the tape and they were, and I said, oh, Ted's jumped up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, oh. And they're like, oh, did he jump up? And that's how you've spilled the coffee all down the

Phoebe Audio:

front.

Anna Audio:

as well? No, I actually gave them the rude finger. I said, no, that's just

Phoebe Audio:

it is, they're having a few comments made about the grubbiness

Anna Audio:

It is a grubby jacket. It's a dog park

Phoebe Audio:

It's a Also, can you give an update on the knee from the dog park incident

Anna Audio:

Oh, yes. I actually, I saw the physio, I had the test done all as well. Oh, thank goodness. Yeah,

Phoebe Audio:

you were in quite a bit of pain even over the weekend.

Anna Audio:

I, I actually was, but then as it came closer to Wednesday when I was seeing the physio, yeah, it had started to feel better, like I could walk up and down stairs way more easily. And then I just had a lot more mobility. I felt like when I was turning even on the weekend. I was doing these sort of three point turns to turn left or right, whereas now I can pivot way more. So that was good. I am so agile right now.

Phoebe Audio:

how many times did you call the physio to try and get an appointment?

Anna Audio:

Oh, I don't know. This is, this is really exposing, I. I did have to apologize to the physio. My man, Andrew. I love him. I trust him with my life. I did have to apologize and say, look, I'm really sorry. I did actually call the clinic a few times and it got to the point where I said, can you please just let Andrew know that it's Anna calling?

Phoebe Audio:

Tell him it's Anna. Tell him it's

Anna Audio:

I tell him.

Phoebe Audio:

And then they put you straight

Anna Audio:

and then they actually did. So if anyone is like, oh, I really wanna see the physio. I can't get in quick enough, just keep calling.

Phoebe Audio:

Just keep calling.

Anna Audio:

calling. Alright. Anyway, Let's get into it.

Phoebe Audio:

Let's do it. we wanna talk about race time calculators because actually a couple of months ago, Strava released a new feature which predicts. Your race time across 5K, 10 K, half marathon and marathon. And previously we've received questions from listeners about the Garmin calculator,'cause Garmin also has this function. People asking how does it calculate it? Is it accurate? And something that I noticed pretty quickly with the Strava one is that it was giving me quite different. Predictions from the garment time. So we thought we should go actually do a bit of a deep dive. How does Strava calculate it? How does Garmin calculate it? Which one is more accurate? And then also have a talk about the half marathon that I've got coming up and well, it's like a live experiment.

Anna Audio:

Yeah. Which if either we should almost do. Human Garmin. Strava. What is the best predictor? What the best predictor? okay, so we'll start with Strava. And their performance predictions are based on your actual run history, so the GPS data from your logged runs. it's a machine learning model that's trained on millions of runners. Yeah, yeah. Um, in the sense that. There are obviously millions of runners on Strava, so what it uses is your training data. So that includes all the different types of runs, your long runs intervals, how many times a week you run the intensity, trends as well if it looks like you've been speeding up, plateauing, or getting slower, as well as consistency over the past 24 weeks.

Phoebe Audio:

it also, yeah, it looks at just information about you as a runner, your age, gender, And then basically what it does is it maps you and all the data it has about you with similar runners. it has so much data around these runners also doing similar times, similar efforts, et cetera. And when they raced, this is the time that they did, um.

Anna Audio:

I find that really

Phoebe Audio:

interesting. Yeah,

Anna Audio:

Yeah, I did not know that. And I also find it fascinating how they know what is a race and

Phoebe Audio:

Well, you can tag it on.

Anna Audio:

Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Yeah, you

Phoebe Audio:

you can tag like I normally,

Anna Audio:

Oh, so you tag races?

Phoebe Audio:

I tag races, yeah. Mainly because, oh, Strava has a feature where you can, every run, you can tag as easy run, long run. Race or something, which I only ever do for

Anna Audio:

gosh, I have never known that.

Phoebe Audio:

yeah. I don't know why I started doing it for races, but it makes it easy. Funnily enough, when you look back at your history, the races, you know, if you look at a Strava chart from the last

Anna Audio:

year mm-hmm.

Phoebe Audio:

it'll show you

Anna Audio:

which which races. Yeah, Okay. it's kind of yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

but, so basically in terms of how Strava predicts it. The race times that it, predicts. It's basically saying people who trained like you end up running this time.

Anna Audio:

Yeah. I also found it quite interesting, so it does require a certain amount of runs on the board, like literally in, within the app. So it just means that for a 5K, you need five plus runs 10 K, 10 plus, and for a full or half marathon it's over 20 runs within the past

Phoebe Audio:

Oh, interesting. Oh, okay. So it needs, I guess, enough

Anna Audio:

Yeah. Which I think is, yeah, I feel like that's actually good'cause it's, it means that if it doesn't feel like it's credible Yeah. It won't actually give

Phoebe Audio:

you Yeah.

Anna Audio:

Yeah. The prediction, which I kind of like

Phoebe Audio:

something really

Anna Audio:

speaking about it like it's a person.

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah. Quite like that. Something really interesting about the Strava one that I've just noticed is pretty much every run you do. It updates your predicted times? No. In fact, every run you do it updates your predicted times. So for example, I did a run this morning, 90 minute run, and I was looking at my predictions'cause I knew we were doing this segment today and. It showed me oh, your, 5K time has gone down. Oh, I don't think my 5K time changed, but it was like your 10 k Estimated time's gone down by two seconds from that run your

Anna Audio:

just from the, that

Phoebe Audio:

has gone down by, that might not be right. I think it was two seconds. Half marathon time's gone down by 10 seconds. And

Anna Audio:

do more. 90 minute

Phoebe Audio:

I know. She's like, I don't know how, again, no idea how accurate that is, but it was super motivating.

Anna Audio:

Yeah, I can

Phoebe Audio:

cool.

Anna Audio:

it's just that refor that positive reinforcement. Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

and then I think my marathon time went down a minute. No, not

Anna Audio:

I think I'm breaking two hours.

Phoebe Audio:

like, literally just do 90

Anna Audio:

it. Said I should run with Faith KPI on and break four for the mile,

Phoebe Audio:

but no, I don't, I don't remember. I should have screenshot what it, oh, actually, sorry. I do have a screenshot'cause it, it says my marathon time went down by four minutes. I think actually this might be from the, oh, sorry. It's, sorry. It's how compared to your predictions from 30 days ago. So in a month, my math sometimes gone down by

Anna Audio:

would make sense.'cause I feel like you've been training quite consistently. Yeah, over the last month and before then you weren't, so I don't disagree

Phoebe Audio:

Strava. No. And it's cool because actually my 5K time and my 10 K time, I've gotten slower the predictions and I've flipped away from training for 5K and I've been training for half marathon marathons. Okay. So I think that's, that's a good signal to me. It seems to mapping to my training quite well.

Anna Audio:

Yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

What about, how does Garmin calculate your race predictions?

Anna Audio:

So the Garmin race predictor is based on your VO two max instead of your history of runs. So your VO two max what it stands for is the maximal oxygen uptake, which is the maximum amount of oxygen your body can use during intense exercise.

Phoebe Audio:

This is one of those terms that I have never

Anna Audio:

Actually like no. Yeah, like I

Phoebe Audio:

know what it's related

Anna Audio:

Well, it's pretty much just saying that the higher your VO two max, the more efficient your body will be at producing energy during an endurance activity, which means you can run faster for longer. So the higher your VO two max, the more likely you are to get a better time. I, I guess the analogy in a sense is the VH two max is the size of your engine. the bigger it is, the more powerful your endurance potential. But it doesn't actually mean you are race ready in a sense. interesting. Yeah. because it doesn't, it's not picking up, data from the specific runs. It's more just looking at how you're

Phoebe Audio:

it feels more like, yeah. It feels more, like more steps removed. Yeah. In a

Anna Audio:

Yeah. so how does Garmin actually calculate your BO O2 max?

Phoebe Audio:

I found this, interesting'cause it's, it's only an estimate of it. I think to get your V two max actually calculate. You have to go in and do

Anna Audio:

Yeah, I've had it done before. So you, yeah. Yeah. So you and your Vito Max can actually train, like it fluctuates as well. It's not as though you just,

Phoebe Audio:

in day to day or

Anna Audio:

well, no, just with your training. So it's like dependent on your weight as well, so, That's what they they need that as a, like measure. Yeah. Yeah. but for instance, you could do a VHM test now and then again in six months and they could be quite different. So I assume, particularly for someone like me who's sort of been a bit of a. Blob, if I,

Phoebe Audio:

I,

Anna Audio:

or like hasn't been running, I should say.

Phoebe Audio:

Yes.

Anna Audio:

if I did one now in comparison to then if I started running heaps and in another six months there would be quite a significant difference. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, but you do it on a treadmill and you actually wear this big kind of mask thing that's actually, it's really hard to breathe. Yeah. Uh, it's like not all, it's not very nice

Phoebe Audio:

And it it looks at your oxygen intake and

Anna Audio:

Yeah. Literally. Yeah. It's sort of how it's measuring how efficient your heart is at the, kind of getting rid of the calm dioxide in up the uptake of the oxygen.

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah. Well, so Garmin basically has a rough equivalent that it uses to calculate or to estimate what it would say your VA two max is. And it's essentially through looking at your heart rate data and your pace, and then it obviously does some calculations, and then it knows, or it should know your age, gender, weight. And roughly maximum heart rate, again, from other runs that you've done. Yeah. yeah, so literally all Garmin does is it takes your via two max and it plugs it into a table. So there's various different models that. Can use, but it has its own table that it uses. And it literally, if you have that via two max, then

Anna Audio:

it spits out the relevant time. So

Phoebe Audio:

in conjunction with the GE age, gender, and

Anna Audio:

way. Yeah. Yeah. and it also predicts based on ideal weather conditions but I assume struggle would actually do that

Phoebe Audio:

Yep. Strava does that. Um, Garmin, you can actually enhance your predictions. You can put in things like course elevation, data temperature, humidity,

Anna Audio:

Okay, that's

Phoebe Audio:

Okay, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Which probably helps. So

Anna Audio:

I guess, Garmin is more sort of saying, given the engine that you've got, here's what you could run.

Phoebe Audio:

If I see everything was Yeah.

Anna Audio:

like you've trained, you've tapered and you nailed the race itself.

Phoebe Audio:

There's a lot of assumptions there.

Anna Audio:

Yeah, A lot. So, just to summarize, what are the key differences?

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah, so key differences, the core input that they use to calculate it. Strava looks at, your GPS logged run data. Garmin looks VO two max. Strava assumes perfect conditions. Garment does too, but you can adjust for conditions such as course and weather if you want. Strava has sort of community influence, so it learns from similar runners and garment doesn't. and if you had to roughly summarize the difference Strava's more accurate reflection of real world race readiness. Yeah. Whereas Garmin potentially is more accurate reflection of fitness, ceiling and sort

Anna Audio:

of Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

term aspirational goals. Yeah.

Anna Audio:

and which one do you think is more accurate? Well,

Phoebe Audio:

this is interesting'cause I feel like from reading that I'm like, I, I would trust Strava's model more. But it's interesting to look at the actual data that it's given me. So let's talk about the half marathon. My Strava has estimated that I can do one hour, 22 minutes and 56 seconds. Yeah. And then my Garmin has estimated that I could do one hour 25 minutes, 27 seconds. Yeah. So about two and a half minutes slower. Yeah.

Anna Audio:

Which I, yeah, I feel like that's quite interesting. I would've expected the Garmin to be a bit more aspirational

Phoebe Audio:

would too. Well, it has been going faster for 5K and 10 K. Yeah. So it thinks I could do 1736 or 5K. Yeah. Which I truly don't think I could do. and 10 K is about the same and then half is slower. Yeah. marathon is slower as well.

Anna Audio:

Yeah. Okay.

Phoebe Audio:

Um, so I look at that. I reckon I'll land somewhere in between those two. If, I had to guess, I'd said like, I'll maybe do 1 24 or similar. That's sort of what I've been thinking in my head. Yeah.

Anna Audio:

Let's remember

Phoebe Audio:

this. Yeah.

Anna Audio:

For the post marathon post half marathon at the Gold Coast. So the Striver thinks you're gonna do 1 22 56. Garmin thinks you're gonna do 1 25, 27. Yeah. And you think you're gonna do,

Phoebe Audio:

my goal was 1 24, but I

Anna Audio:

1 24

Phoebe Audio:

a little bit slower than that and try and

Anna Audio:

okay, so you gotta gimme a time.

Phoebe Audio:

1 24 flat. Yeah. That's my goal.

Anna Audio:

Okay, cool.

Phoebe Audio:

I'll be stoked if I get sub that. I'd be

Anna Audio:

really, yeah. Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

So we'll see. But yeah, let us know. I'm really interested to hear from listeners about what these predictions look like for you and whether you think they feel accurate. do you feel like one's more accurate than the other? Have any of these ever led you astray or totally nailed it? send us a message and let us know.

Anna Audio:

Yeah, I reckon. All right, so speaking of you running the half marathon at Gold Coast Marathon Festival, we are so pumped to join the Lululemon team at their clubhouse for the weekend at the QT Hotel. We will be hosting the shakeout run for the marathon. On Saturday, the 5th of July at 10:00 AM Come one, come all.

Phoebe Audio:

it's gonna be around four Ks shakeout run. So either if you're doing the math on the next day, perfect. Easy jog for you to shake out the legs, get the blood flowing, get ready for your race. Or if you've done a half marathon, treat it as a cool down debrief, commiserations, congratulations, et cetera. it or starts and finishes at the QT Hotel, which is an amazing venue. And they've got a really good setup there. They've got, recovery boots, supplements, massage guns, food drinks, all on the rooftop whilst listening to some post around beats with a dj.

Anna Audio:

There will also be a popup Lululemon shop for you to try in their gear. I personally recommend trying their new a line no line tights. I pick some up on Tuesday and I cannot take them off. there'll also be a customization hub where you can create a personalized piece and just all round good vibes.

Phoebe Audio:

And we're very excited about this because, well, A, we did a shakeout run last year

Anna Audio:

and it was

Phoebe Audio:

fun. It was actually pouring with rain,

Anna Audio:

but still fun.

Phoebe Audio:

it was so fun. It was so fun. It was such a nice moment a lot of people had just raced and then there were also a lot of people who were racing the next day. And a lot of the people who had raced were giving advice, like, this is what the conditions are like, this is what they wish they'd done differently. It was a really nice. Moment of the weekend. The other thing that I'm so excited about is to partner with Lulu.

Anna Audio:

Oh, me too. We have been wearing their clothes for.

Phoebe Audio:

Forever.

Anna Audio:

Literally. I feel like I got my first pair of Lululemons when I was like 14 or something. but yeah, we're so stoked. The team is

Phoebe Audio:

The team is amazing. It's actually been, we've been planning out this partnership for a little while now, including, went on some runs together.

Anna Audio:

Yeah, it's just so, it's honestly, it just feels right.

Phoebe Audio:

It just feels right. And so we'll actually gonna be working with Lulu a lot over the next couple months, which we are so excited about. So in the lead up to the Gold Coast, but also City Marathon and Melbourne Marathon.

Anna Audio:

So yes, thank you Lulu, for making this episode of Cheeky Possible and we can't wait for the next few months. Yay.

Phoebe Audio:

Okay. So am I the asshole. So actually you hadn't heard of this concept before.

Anna Audio:

No. I

Phoebe Audio:

I might explain it in case any

Anna Audio:

Yeah, I think that would be good.'cause I don't think my mom and dad would've edited.

Phoebe Audio:

Okay. Okay.

Anna Audio:

give us the TLDR. The TLDR

Phoebe Audio:

of. Am I the asshole? I think It either started as a Reddit forum or it's just, that's where it's

Anna Audio:

Mm-hmm.

Phoebe Audio:

Am I the asshole? Is where you basically submit a story, where you're trying to figure out, am I the one in the wrong here? Yeah. Or is the other person on the other side. they're now just a bit of a. Trope, I suppose. But we had someone send us in one through Instagram, which I thought was a very interesting one to discuss. It's actually, it's definitely not something that you would have done before. Okay. well actually, maybe we'll see. and I'm keen to hear if you think that the listener is the asshole or the other person. Okay. So I'm gonna read it out to you. Am I the asshole for attending the same run club as my ex that he introduced me to? The story is my ex and I are part of the same very popular run club in our city. It's definitely his thing. He introduced me to it while we were dating and he's been going on and off for years. I started tagging along. Whilst we were together and made some great friends through it, we broke up in December. I ended things, but we stayed on relatively good terms. After the breakup. I kept going to the Ronald Club occasionally, partly because I enjoy it and partly because I have my own friendships there. At one point during the weird post breakup phase, I offered to check with him before attending since I knew it might be hard for him. He said he'd rather we not cross paths, and I agreed at that time, but now I'm realizing that kind of gives him control over whether I can go, and this is a public club with a big community that I enjoy being a part of. He's recently told me he's uncomfortable with me being there and he wants me to find a different run club. I understand it was originally his space, but it's also become meaningful to me and I don't wanna give it up just because we broke up. Am I the asshole for continuing to go?

Anna Audio:

Oh my gosh, I did not. Okay. I haven't done that. interesting. My, my first reaction was to ask how long ago the breakup was, but it sounds like she did give some. Base post breakup and then, and also asked him and he sort of advised that he wouldn't. So I think she's done the right thing there, giving some space, particularly because she was the one that called it. And if it's his thing, I just think for four to six months just let it be his. you do you. But that's probably a big part of his life and a big, sense of purpose as well. I think post sort of six-ish months or so, you're free to go. Yeah. It's a, as she said, it's a public space. You have good friends there as well. Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

that's what I mean, even for the first six months, what she's meant to not run with her friends or ask all her friends to not run at the run club.

Anna Audio:

Well, I just think around breakups, I feel like particularly if you're the one that instigated it, I think you need to be extra, Empathetic is the wrong word, but extra cautious in the sense that respect their kind of space. you

Phoebe Audio:

know,

Anna Audio:

like he's struggling, you know, that's what he likes doing. Just let him have it for a bit. It doesn't mean that you can never go, it's just for the little bit. And also I'm sure that your friends would be happy to run with you another day

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah.

Anna Audio:

else as well. So I just feel like you just respect that for a little

Phoebe Audio:

that one. Assuming it's just once a week.

Anna Audio:

Yeah. But I think after six months or so, I think you, go for it. Yeah, I think go for it. You have done the right thing by respecting his

Phoebe Audio:

space and

Anna Audio:

but as you said, it is a public running space and you are free to do whatever you want.

Phoebe Audio:

want, I reckon.

Anna Audio:

What do you think?

Phoebe Audio:

No, I agree. I mean, initially I was like, oh, if, if all her friends are running there too, what she just meant to run by herself like that doesn't feel very, very reasonable, but. I more think that, yeah, I kind of agree. After a point in time you can probably start just being like, whatever. Especially if it's such a big group. I feel like that makes a really big difference. Like it says, it's a very popular run club, so I'm sure there's lots of people going there. I actually just think, I wonder if this is gonna. Become a little bit common because a couple years ago, a lot of people started meeting through run clubs. Yeah, that's so true. And how do you deal with it when you have a breakup in a run club? what happens to the run club?

Anna Audio:

my gut thing is that, and maybe this is not the right thing to say, but I kind of feel like I'd want to start something else or wanna

Phoebe Audio:

try something different.

Anna Audio:

different.'cause it's like you do that with them. I don't even know if you really wanna be seeing them. Yeah. I don't know. I just feel like it's like, that was nice for that time in my life. There are heaps of other run clubs.

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah.

Anna Audio:

Yeah. but in a sense, she also shouldn't have to be the one that does that. Like if it makes him feel that

Phoebe Audio:

he can go.

Anna Audio:

But. I don't know. I just, empathize. I, I can imagine myself being broken up with and then them also being like, well, I'm still gonna come to the run club, and being

Phoebe Audio:

like.

Anna Audio:

can you just gimme a little bit of

Phoebe Audio:

space? Yeah, true. Couple months. Yeah. And then it's fair game. Yeah. Well, I'm interested what the listeners think. Yeah. Let us know. Maybe we'll do a poll. Yeah. Am I the asshole for continue

Anna Audio:

No, she's not an asshole. No,

Phoebe Audio:

I don't think she is either. I think that's really fair.

Anna Audio:

really good.

Phoebe Audio:

You get that wrong. Love.

Anna Audio:

Was that alright, so to finish up the episode, we are going to do a listener question for the week, and that is, what should I do about Runner's Knee? Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

yeah, someone messaged us on Instagram and I thought.

Anna Audio:

We're not doctors. We are not,

Phoebe Audio:

we're not doctors

Anna Audio:

physios. Or physios.

Phoebe Audio:

or physios. Yeah, true. so I thought, why don't we crowdsource and just sort of see what's out there.'cause I know runner's knee is quite common. so we put it out and I would say we had over a hundred responses with, recommendations of what we should do. So we've tried to categorize those from sort of not very common responses to very common

Anna Audio:

more. Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

But before we do, have you had runner's name before? What is

Anna Audio:

I actually have, so the only marathon I've ever done was in 2019 was the Melbourne Marathon and I couldn't run for the

Phoebe Audio:

sweet

Anna Audio:

six weeks for surprise, surprise. I couldn't run for the six weeks beforehand because I had runner's knee and ne I'd never had it before. And it is really painful. I mean, I'll get into it, but pretty much what it is, it's runner's knee real name, it's Patello femoral pain syndrome. And it's a condition, I always used to call it patello femoral

Phoebe Audio:

syndrome.

Anna Audio:

Yeah, because I didn't realize

Phoebe Audio:

it was nerd.

Anna Audio:

runner's knee. I was always like, anyway, so it's a condition characterized by pain around or behind the kneecap, the patella. and symptoms include pain, so like dull aching pain around the kneecap, often worsening with activity.

Phoebe Audio:

I have had this. Yeah, but not yeah, I have had this minor

Anna Audio:

you. Yeah. Stiffness in the knee. I remember particularly it would get bad after sitting for a while with a bent knee and then you'd stand up and then it would be really painful. and then there's also grinding or clicking. I remember I had the grinding, but it's sort of, that sensation when you bend the knee. It kind of feels like actually grinding is the perfect word. I used to think of it. It kind of felt like you were grating something.

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah. And

Anna Audio:

grinding is

Phoebe Audio:

yeah.

Anna Audio:

and then lastly, pain with specific activities. So particularly aggravated by running, squatting, kneeling, and going up or down stairs. So Phoebe, tell us what the cheeky listeners thought of

Phoebe Audio:

we thought it was funny the spread of recommendations here. so as I said, we've, we've categorized them'cause this is one of the most common running injuries.

Anna Audio:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's why they call it runner's knee

Phoebe Audio:

out. So why don't we go on for one? Yeah. So one person recommended Epsom salts, have a bath, put some Epsom salts in.

Anna Audio:

Nice. I like it. I feel like not gonna change the world, but not gonna hurt. another one, increased cadence. This was actually from a physio

Phoebe Audio:

Oh, really?

Anna Audio:

So,

Phoebe Audio:

okay.

Anna Audio:

I'm backing this

Phoebe Audio:

for this one then. I don't understand why, but

Anna Audio:

I don't, I mean, my non physio or doctor brain would think because you're not bending your knee as much with, if you increase your cadence. because you're taking smaller steps. So I feel like you are like not bending as much,

Phoebe Audio:

I would've thought it was more like, less impact per step, but maybe that makes more

Anna Audio:

Yeah. Maybe.

Phoebe Audio:

Yeah. Well if you're a physio, let know, two people said, just hit the naproxen. Yeah. Which Naproxen is a very strong anti-inflammatory, so these are clearly people who aren't shy from just Yeah. Hitting the hard stuff.

Anna Audio:

Two people said Stop running, which I agree with in a sense, but stopping running and not doing anything else isn't gonna make it better either.

Phoebe Audio:

way more people said rest, which I feel like I haven't put in here. A lot of people said

Anna Audio:

I think resting is good as long as you're doing other things in conjunction with it.

Phoebe Audio:

A few people said specifically sleep. Just sleep more. Yeah. seem to be a common one.

Anna Audio:

a few other people said the Four Runner's Knee Pilates, which is Alice Back's

Phoebe Audio:

Pilates

Anna Audio:

Pilates app. I haven't actually done the knee Pilates specific sessions, but can vouch that all of our other sessions are amazing.

Phoebe Audio:

Two people said, roll your hamstrings. Mm. Which doesn't intuitively fit into me as the, when I, one thing you do to solve runner's need, but it's clearly worked for them.

Anna Audio:

Yeah. another one, roll your ITB. I think this would really help because, and I guess it's the same in the same vein as the hamstrings. If everything's sort of tight around there, it'll put more strain, around your kneecap. So good to get those things loose.

Phoebe Audio:

I feel like what I did when I had very minor runner's knee was,'cause I got a massage I remember and my quads were super tight, tight and I just rolled them

Anna Audio:

And I, yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

and it helped, a few people said, strengthen the little knee muscles around the knee.

Anna Audio:

Uh, yeah, I, I really agree with this one. I remember I would try and tense my VMO. So your quad muscle, so when you're standing up, you just do it on one leg, but you hold it and you try to hold it for about 30 seconds. It's actually really hard.'cause I found when I had runner's knee my VMO, which if you, you would all know, it's literally right above your kneecap kind of on the inside. When I got runner's knee, mine disappeared. was so strange. So I remember I would try and hold that for about 30 seconds, just whenever I remembered during the day.

Phoebe Audio:

Oh, there you go. We had three people say do leg extensions.

Anna Audio:

Yep. a few more saying calf raises.

Phoebe Audio:

Four people said quad strength.

Anna Audio:

Yep. Five people said single leg, quad, hamstring set.

Phoebe Audio:

Oh, just yeah.

Anna Audio:

just, just, yeah. Variations of a single leg strength.

Phoebe Audio:

Five people also said wall sits seem to be super common. One person said specifically wall sits and isometric quad extension will fix in two to three days, which is a huge

Anna Audio:

promise. That is huge. That's a huge promise. I wish I had known that six years ago. I did find that wall sits after a while did really help because I guess it depends on what the reason is with, as to why you got it. But for me it was purely just like lack of strength. So doing that and then onto the next one, strengthen glutes, which over 10 people said, yeah, it's just always. It's a classic. It's always the bloody glutes.

Phoebe Audio:

So my, I feel like this comes back to your glutes aren't working hard enough, so your quads are having to work harder. Yeah. but also, I mean, the takeaway for me with this is. It seems like it really depends what's caused your runner's knee because everyone, as we've heard, there are so many different things that could cause it. So the biggest recommendation from us is to see a physio, and they'll give you rehab things for it. Like you actually have to identify what's causing it. Yeah. otherwise I would love to see someone go to the gym and try and do all these different exercises that we've just recommended.

Anna Audio:

they probably would just have a, so Sony if you did all of those at once. but thank you guys so much for listening. We are so excited for the next few weeks and to see all up on the Gold Coast, hopefully at the shakeout run.

Phoebe Audio:

I think there's a registration link for the shakeout run.

Anna Audio:

Oh yes. We'll pop it in our show notes and then we'll also pop it in our Instagram bio. Yeah.

Phoebe Audio:

Sounds good. Bye. Bye.

Anna Audio:

Oh, he said he likes it when I'm naggy. Okay. Actually Kiara cut that bit out. That is so bad. Oh my gosh.