Cheeky Run Club

Is running a cult?

• Phoebe Pincus & Anna Coldham • Season 7 • Episode 2

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Happy Monday Cheeky legends!

This week, we sit down with a friend of the pod, Issie Hume, and unpack the cult of running and where we're all at in our own personal running cult journeys.

We also crown our first ever Lululemon Cheeky Champion of the week. 

Thanks Lululemon for bringing this episode to life 💜

Links:

Sadi's savoury running food recipes (check out full thread of non-gel recs here)

Recipe 1 (3 portions)
1/2 cup mashed sweet potato 1/3 cup chopped dates 2 tablespoon peanutbutter (100% peanuts) 1 tsp chia seed 1/8 tsp sea salt
Combine everything but chia seeds with 2 tbsp water in a blender, blend to smooth. Remove and stir in chia seeds. put mixture into reusable gel packets
180 cal 28g carbs

Recipe 1 sticky rice cakes
Make sushi rice with a mix of water and the full-fat canned coconut milk. Then when it's done, mix in your favourite. savoury ones: peanut butter and soy sauce. Sweet ones with freeze dried fruits, a little salt. Press the mixture into a pan and let it cool. Cut into bars, wrap and freeze. The rice is easy on the stomach.

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, TikTok, Substack, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

Music produced by Hugh Raper & logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

anna audio:

Cheeky Run Club recognizes that every day we live, work, and run on Aboriginal land.

phoebe audio:

And this episode is sponsored by Lululemon supporting cheeky runners every step of the way.

anna audio:

Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast, and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello, Phoebe. Hello and hello listeners.

phoebe audio:

Today we are discussing slash debating whether or not running is a cult. And if it is a cult, whether or not we're in it. And we're discussing that with the help of friend of the show, ZY Hume. We're also gonna award our inaugural cheeky Champion of the week, which will be the person with the best response to the question posted in our Strava group.

anna audio:

group.

phoebe audio:

And they'll be getting a gift from Lululemon, which is very exciting. But first of all, as always, we'll kick it off with our notable runs of the week. Anna, what was your worst running related activity this week?

anna audio:

Uh, similar to last week, but not quite the same. My worst running related activity was going to the physio, and being referred on to the sports doctor from there. So.

phoebe audio:

what did I say?

anna audio:

Say I, it was really, I really all physios out there. I really I really respect when you, like physios can acknowledge that they're not quite sure what's going on

phoebe audio:

Mm. And

anna audio:

like, refer to

phoebe audio:

is this your normal physio you went into? Oh, you went to a different one.

anna audio:

Yeah.

phoebe audio:

Wow.

anna audio:

so yeah, a little bit disheartening in the sense that I just need to make another appointment, but I did really appreciate, Him just being like, I'm not quite sure what's going on.

phoebe audio:

So you basically talked through like everything that's been going on,

anna audio:

everything for like 50 minutes and,

phoebe audio:

and he just said.

anna audio:

well no, he was super helpful and he has given me, he's told me to get, do some myofascial release and pretty much like release my hip'cause it's my like TFL'cause it's really, really tight and then has given me some broader sort of strength exercises to do that will work the. Glutes in the core, so the muscles around my hip. But he says that he doesn't actually wanna work that'cause one, he doesn't know exactly what it is. And also two, because it's so tight, he thinks that will actually just

phoebe audio:

oh yeah. Oh, that sounds like a very sensible approach.

anna audio:

Yes, exactly. but yes, I think just my worst running related activity because I just feel like I'm going around in circles.

phoebe audio:

Oh, so next step is cs. Well, doctor

anna audio:

See a sports doctor, but they're, yeah, I'm on the cancellation list at, Olympic Park in Melbourne because none of them are available until sort of late August, which is a bit

phoebe audio:

That is crazy,

anna audio:

Crazy. They're in high demand.

phoebe audio:

wait list.

anna audio:

Yeah. was your worst running related

phoebe audio:

activities. Mine was a run, post work trot this afternoon. Yeah, I'm in a real pickle because I am trying in my pursuit to have a sustainable marathon block. I set a kind of rough idea in my head that, I'd, some mornings in a week, I'd run after work and I'll sleep in in the morning and I'm in this bad habit at the moment of riding the substack really late on a Tuesday night

anna audio:

Tuesday

phoebe audio:

and not going to bed till really late. And I haven't, I didn't wanna get up at like five 30 and run'cause I just would've had so little sleep. So I think that's been a, a good thing for my sleep. Like I got a good night's sleep, but then running after work, I cannot.

anna audio:

hard

phoebe audio:

Do it. Mm-hmm. I don't know why, I've been feeling completely fine in all my runs. Then I run after work and it every part of my body is sore. Yeah. Everything hurt. It just all feels like a little bit off. I couldn't warm my

anna audio:

the same, but I would just allow myself to go 30 seconds, a kilometers slower

phoebe audio:

Mm-hmm. And

anna audio:

absolutely no qualms about it. I feel like you

phoebe audio:

yeah.

anna audio:

really adjust your expectations

phoebe audio:

That's actually a good tip. Maybe I should just actually, consciously, yeah, because I

anna audio:

to go slowly.

phoebe audio:

about trying to keep, I know I'm not looking at my pace at all, but I think my body wants to run at

anna audio:

Yeah, because you're, yeah.'cause you're used to like jogging at a particular

phoebe audio:

Yeah, but it's weird. it was kind of cool when I started the run. It was maybe 12 degrees, but that's warmer than it normally is in

anna audio:

morning. Mm.

phoebe audio:

And yet the cold was getting to me so much

anna audio:

Yeah. So much more than it does in the

phoebe audio:

yeah, it was really weird.

anna audio:

I always remember as well, I felt like my legs were really weak in a sense. Yeah. Like they were a bit wobbly underneath me. I was a bit

phoebe audio:

I think that's exactly it, and I don't know why I literally sit down at work all day. Like I don't, I'm not on my feet,

anna audio:

yeah. I don't know. It's weird. But yeah, I would try to adjust your pace and maybe do something beforehand.'cause I do think it's valuable for you to have a sleep in midweek.

phoebe audio:

Yeah, I do as well. I approve. You approve.

anna audio:

I do think it's good. do some sort of warmup for it, like

phoebe audio:

Oh yeah.

anna audio:

or like, pre-run activations that you might not necessarily or do. Before, like, sorry if you run straight Australia in the morning,

phoebe audio:

I need to do something.'cause it is not working for, sorry. In fact, if any listeners have any tips for how to make after post work runs feel good. I swear there was a time in my life when post work runs felt

anna audio:

Amazing. Yeah,

phoebe audio:

I feel like I'm at that age where that does not feeling.

anna audio:

It's a slippery

phoebe audio:

That easy anymore. me about your best running related

anna audio:

activity. mine is embarrassingly, it's the same

phoebe audio:

cycle collective.

anna audio:

I love it. No, I went went on Tuesday night for the first time, as in, I've never been to a Tuesday night session before, and it was like. Beats and something, and the lady, I think her name was Julie, the instructor, she honestly must do so much work. I was just in awe where as the whole session because I was like, you've really thought this through. She dictates what song she's playing by, what cadence she's set at for the session. So just say the cadence is at 70 beats per

phoebe audio:

Oh wow.

anna audio:

She, the song that goes with it is.

phoebe audio:

The,

anna audio:

The beat is the same so that you are always like riding to the beat. I have explained that so badly.

phoebe audio:

an example of a song.

anna audio:

Okay, so

phoebe audio:

and sing it for us. So I can imagine cycling along,

anna audio:

you are on the phone with your boyfriend. She's, and you're like, do.

phoebe audio:

on the phone. So it's like

anna audio:

you're like going like

phoebe audio:

Pedal. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, pedal. Pedal.

anna audio:

yeah, yeah, yeah.

phoebe audio:

Whoa.

anna audio:

Well I know crazy, but it was really fun But yeah, it was really good. Anyway, so that was my best running related activity. was yours?

phoebe audio:

Okay. Mine has been over the last few weeks I've started playing futsal.

anna audio:

Oh yes, you have.

phoebe audio:

Which is really not what I should be doing when I'm trying to train for a marathon, but my

anna audio:

you have so many other things. I

phoebe audio:

I know. Oh my god.

anna audio:

bow. I know.

phoebe audio:

I know. Uh, it's crazy. Really. But our friend Ant was starting football team Ant and I used to play soccer together back in Sydney and I just couldn't resist. And I have been playing and it has been, I literally dunno when I lost said this. Much fun. Everyone needs to play social team sports.

anna audio:

It is so fun.

phoebe audio:

so good. Yeah. And so, well, so as I'm in the team and so is aunt and so is my brother Joe. And then, our other brother Tom was in town and so he joined in. Yeah. And I dunno how many. Hours and days and months and years of my life I've spent playing soccer with Tom and Joe growing up. And so, and I don't know when we last all played together. Played together. Yeah. And it was so fun like running out there,

anna audio:

been so good.

phoebe audio:

Yeah. Yeah, it was so good. And I scored a goal where I not made the keeper, and it was just about the most satisfying thing that has ever

anna audio:

happened.

phoebe audio:

me in my whole life.'cause there's just nothing that feels better than nutting someone. So yeah, I have been really enjoying that. I, I genuinely think it's messing up my running at the moment'cause I have doms for days after those

anna audio:

Yeah. It'd be so hard.

phoebe audio:

It's so hard. And I think it's made my shins so,

anna audio:

Mm.

phoebe audio:

so, I don't know. I am gonna have to ask myself. So I think I wanna be able to play. And not be so competitive.'cause I think I get on there and I just

anna audio:

get white line fever,

phoebe audio:

I can't hold myself back. And I give it everything.

anna audio:

you just gotta go on and be like, do do,

phoebe audio:

I know. I just don't,

anna audio:

social.

phoebe audio:

I don't have that in me. Yeah, I think you'd be the exact same. Yeah. I can't not be like I will not lose this game.

anna audio:

Yeah.

phoebe audio:

Like if I have to, no matter what I have

anna audio:

I, I will do an ACL

phoebe audio:

I know, I know. But I fear, I reckon if I don't get to the start line of this marathon, it's because I've done something of its all.

anna audio:

Oh, don't.

phoebe audio:

I know. But I can't help it. I love it. Maybe we should be having the discussion of is al a cult

anna audio:

Yeah. Not running.

phoebe audio:

okay. So we have a little bit of housekeeping

anna audio:

once again.

phoebe audio:

Once again. but this is very exciting one because we're gonna award our Lululemon cheeky champion of the week.

anna audio:

Mm. So the question was submitted by Samantha and that was Samantha. Thank you Samantha. That was, what are some good savory fueling options for long runs when you're sick of gels?

phoebe audio:

I love this question because I'm sick of gels.

anna audio:

You are? Yeah.

phoebe audio:

out there. I'm sick of gels. I'm, I'm, I'm not minding my blocks, my tubes, but I love the point of this question being savory.'cause sometimes you don't want something really, really, really sweet. Yeah. And I'd say, thank you so much to everyone who wrote in responses. There's, I think about. 40 or something and counting. and we only posted early today, but a lot of them misread the brief because there's a lot of sweet recommendations. They're not savory,

anna audio:

but that's okay.

phoebe audio:

But that's okay.

anna audio:

Sadie saved the day. so she's given us a couple of recipes. Yeah. should we read it out or should we, I feel like people aren't gonna write this down, so maybe we should just put it in our

phoebe audio:

notes. We'll talk through very high level. There's one recipe for, it's kind of like a sweet potato paste.

anna audio:

Mm.

phoebe audio:

Essentially it's a replacement for a gel.

anna audio:

And she said that it doesn't taste as bad as it sounds. I actually don't even think it tastes that bad. So it's mashed sweet potato, chopped dates, peanut butter. A few chia seeds and a little bit of salt and put it all in the blender

phoebe audio:

with some water.

anna audio:

With some water. Put mixture into reusable, reusable gel packets and you're done.

phoebe audio:

Yeah. And then the other one is basically sushi rice. Which there are a fair few people who said some variation of sushi rice. This one, basically, she says, you can mix in with your favorite things like peanut butter or soy sauce. Which soy sauce is probably good'cause you got a little bit of salt in there as well. again, We'll post these recipes so you guys can actually see them. I don't know, but do you know what the science is with just uh, sweet things, just like better on or wrong?'cause you digest them quicker.'cause it's more simple sugars.

anna audio:

I just think they're more that it's to make them flavorsome.

phoebe audio:

really,

anna audio:

why. Yeah. So they, they make it so that people want to have them.

phoebe audio:

Okay.

anna audio:

And also, yeah, actually maybe it's, because remember how I think we were speaking about one time with nutrition in regards to running and how even if you don't swallow something, it being on your tongue,

phoebe audio:

the sweet taste

anna audio:

gives you that. Like

phoebe audio:

Yes. It kicks in in your body.

anna audio:

Yeah. So maybe it's something to do with that as well.

phoebe audio:

Yeah, that's true. I wonder if the more complex the carbs, the less quickly your body,,

anna audio:

Oh yeah. Yeah, definitely.

phoebe audio:

Yeah. We should experiment with some of these. Yeah. um, give it a go because especially like gels are so expensive, there's so much waste. If you can be making your own,

anna audio:

yeah, that would

phoebe audio:

a huge win. So thank you Sadie.

anna audio:

Thank you Sadie. Also special shout out. One listener said that she actually cooks pasta and puts it in snap block bags with some salt. I see that and has even done that with Noie. And I rate that.

phoebe audio:

I, that is commitment. That's commitment to the cause. so thank you Sadie. Our first cheeky champion of the week. We'll be in touch and Lululemon will be sending you a gift. Um, also thank you Lululemon for helping bring this episode to life.

anna audio:

Woo.

phoebe & anna audio:

Alright. Today's main topic this week is a goodie. If we had a dollar for every time we heard someone comment on running, being a cult, we would be rich ish. We usually shrug this statement off because we love running and overall think it's mostly positive. we decided to explore this concept a little deeper so we thought it would be great to get friend of the show and fellow running cult member, Izzy, back on to discuss, considering what all the different stages of our running journey AKA. We're on different cult levels at the moment. I mean, the chat's obviously just for fun, but we do think it'll be an interesting framework to explore the lines between healthy and obsessive. And we thought a fun way to start would be to introduce where we're all, where we all believe we're at in relation to the cult of running at the moment.

issy audio:

Yes.

phoebe & anna audio:

So Izzy, what do you reckon? Are you in or outside of the cult? I'm,

issy audio:

I'm cult adjacent

phoebe & anna audio:

at the moment.

issy audio:

okay. My cult levels, so.

phoebe & anna audio:

I,

issy audio:

I, well, I was in a run club, so I'm still in a run club. I'm still in a running group, but I'm now remote, so I'm not like physically in the run club. I don't know if that is going we'll. We'll find out if that is gonna give me any points on the cult journey. Um, running every single day. Definitely at the point where I'm planning my entire life around running route. I'm going to Europe in a couple weeks and best believe before I booked any accommodation, I was on, on the Go Maps, checking, elevation, checking route. It was a very important part of my planning. So do with that information what you will, and we'll figure out how culty I am by the end of the episode.

phoebe & anna audio:

Interesting to include that in the cult adjacent framework. Yeah. Anyway,

issy audio:

No, I'm not. No, no, no. Because I've got, I've got,

phoebe & anna audio:

got, I

issy audio:

got points to make later. Don't you worry. I'm not in the cult.

phoebe & anna audio:

uh, Phoebe, where are you at on your cults journey? Well, I'm, I'm, I'm scared about saying this because I alluded to that this might be my answer before and. You ripped me to shreds. I think that I'm a bit of a recovered running cult person. So I think I have had a phase in my life where I was a little bit in the cult and I was a bit culty in the way that I was approach riding. But I think I'm now like one of those people who have sort of escaped. They're still mates with the people in the cult. Like they might still have some family members there, but they can look back with a lot of perspective on their journey and they can engage in a really healthy way. So, where I think I'm outta my running journey and my running cult journey. What about you, Anna? Please. No comments. We'll discuss further later. I would say I, I'm not in the cult anymore and it's it's interesting perspective listening to both of you describe where you are at in your cult running journey.'cause I would've probably answered in the same way. This time last year. However, I feel like I'm, maybe I was in denial No, in truth, I'm not in the cult anymore, but I'm doing everything I can to get back in it because I miss it so much.

issy audio:

much.

phoebe & anna audio:

but yes. Fully

issy audio:

to have you back as well.

phoebe & anna audio:

Oh, thank you so much. but yeah, it is, it is interesting, viewing. I, I feel like I, in the last few months or this year particularly, I have viewed the running world very differently to the last few years. Not necessarily for better or for worse, but just in a different light, different perspective. Yeah. Yeah. As a recovering running cult person, I, I know exactly what you mean

issy audio:

I'm excited to hear Anna's take through all of this as well because I do fear that it was just Phoebe and I talking about how we're not in the cult.

phoebe & anna audio:

No, you in the,

issy audio:

the cult. You're

phoebe & anna audio:

in the,

issy audio:

old. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm excited. I'm excited. Accountability is key

phoebe & anna audio:

Accountability is key. And as listeners will see, we're already holding each other accountable. So at a very high level, we're going to talk through three of the core pillars, of cults that are really common in cults. We'll talk through

issy audio:

talk through

phoebe & anna audio:

authoritarianism and suppression of descent. We'll talk through glorification of total commitment and we'll talk through the sort of social isolation, and like group identity that, as I said are all very common to cults. And as we go through each of them, we'll unpack what does this look like in the running world? Have any of us experienced any of these? And then at the end, we'll sort of arrive, I actually dunno what conclusion I'm gonna arrive at'cause it will depend on how the conversation goes on whether we think that running really is a cult or not.

issy audio:

So

phoebe & anna audio:

Izzy do you wanna talk us through the first. Pillar, hallmark of a cult. Yeah.

issy audio:

well I think that the best place to start, this is probably the most famous, well known in pop culture. When you think of a cult, it's always that absolute figurehead. A leader who is all knowing, completely idolized, very charismatic. And yeah, they're always such a draw card. Like when you're watching the cult,

phoebe & anna audio:

which is

issy audio:

it's so fascinating to see who the cult leader is. in running specifically, I think it's pretty obvious who the cult leader could be in a run club. And that would be the head coach who is never questioned, maybe always, right. And handing out programs, handing out advice, and everyone's looking at them for knowledge taking every word they say,

phoebe & anna audio:

idolizing them

issy audio:

Idolizing them. Yeah, absolutely. And I wonder if there's, so I think that there's probably two, there's the head coach in like a running situation. And then I wonder if there are other just more like influential, maybe less. Official kind of

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. I feel like maybe then there are also like the founders of run clubs who might not necessarily be the coach per se, but lead the pack in a more social way. Yeah. What about, um, who start running podcasts? They're definitely very author authoritarian. We do suppress descent

issy audio:

Yeah.

phoebe & anna audio:

that we, if we do anything, that's what we

issy audio:

That's what you're doing.

phoebe & anna audio:

so I guess the idea like linking it to running is that there's only, um, sort of leaders would sort of think that there's only, there's one way to race Yeah. Train. maybe if you are in it your, your friends or people that you know might be getting injured, but you, you don't sort of like see it as the bigger picture

issy audio:

or you don't feel like you could question or push back or ask questions.

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. What their Yeah.

issy audio:

disagree maybe with a coaching method. this is really interesting'cause I actually like, we're joking about it being a cult. I actually do think that this is one where you probably should have one person who know, like I find a lot of comfort from having one person who I go to for advice. I feel like we're in this world now where we're just like an apocalyptic information everywhere. Everyone's an expert, but a lot of these people aren't experts, but they're just giving out advice on the internet, telling you how to train, what to eat, you know how to recover all sorts of strange methods to do things. And it can be really easy to get lost. And I think that as a runner, having one person, I have a coach, having one person who I actually trust, who I know is an expert, who knows what they're talking about.

phoebe & anna audio:

there

issy audio:

can clearly be good coaches and bad coaches, but I find having someone that I can default to actually really helpful and really important.

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. Yeah.

issy audio:

And even if there is multiple different methods of coaching, which I'm sure there are different theories of what the best way to train is, and maybe one of them isn't more right than the other, and both could lead to success as a runner, but having one at least you have like a cohesive plan.

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. And just sticking to it.

issy audio:

and sticking to one person. Yeah.

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. I feel like the challenge can be the, power dynamic from like information perspective, because a lot of runners are quite new. When they get a coach for the first time, they feel like they're at an informational disadvantage because they're like, I don't have this information. And so it can end up being a bit of a relationship where you completely defer to them for everything, how you should respond to everything. And you almost don't transform your own learning outside of that and not saying this is what you've done at all, but saying in the situations where this maybe isn't that helpful is when you almost devalue your own experience and what you think, what your body is telling you. Because you're like, oh, well my coach said this should be

issy audio:

Mm.

phoebe & anna audio:

Or, I don't know. I can speak to, obviously I've had the same coach for years now. I think he's an amazing coach, but I can now look back and be like, oh, this whatever way of training or, or whatever it was, advice he gave me at points in time hasn't worked for me. And at the time I definitely took it as go gospel. Mm, there you go. Um, well,'cause I do, I do think that there's not that many, relationships that you form in life that have such a distinct power imbalance from the start. But a coach athlete relationship, really has that, because if, if you think about it, it's all sort of you are

issy audio:

well,

phoebe & anna audio:

not often that they ask you to sort of like look. Introspectively and like do some analysis yourself.

issy audio:

Well I think that there's obviously gonna be a whole spectrum of different types of

phoebe & anna audio:

coaches.

issy audio:

and there's always

phoebe & anna audio:

benevolent leaders.

issy audio:

Yeah. There's always gonna be good coaches and bad coaches and a good coach will like I, yeah, a red flag is probably this, an idea that it's one size fits all and that this is, it's this and you can't do it. You can't hack it, like get out of the group if you can't keep up kind of thing. Versus a coach who does listen to you and who does have a two-way information, who hears you when you say you're responding well to this kind of training, or you're feeling tired, or maybe even just your personal goals in what you want to race or not race. If they're pushing you to do things that you don't feel ready for or don't want to do or they're not.

phoebe & anna audio:

not,

issy audio:

They just think that you're an idiot and you don't know what you are talking about versus someone who believes you. If you say, this feels good, this was bad. I can't handle this, I'm ready for more.

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. I feel like maybe to step back from the coach element, there is sometimes. This narrative in running and maybe more from maybe people who've been in the running scene for longer of this is the one way to do things and you're an idiot if you do it any other way. Like long runs must be done in this way. Yeah, yeah. You mustn't wear this kind of thing. And I do think people tend to have that quite binary. There's there's almost sacred rules. Yeah. Mm. the other thing I was gonna say the leader of a run club,'cause I do think I've seen, having been in and around a lot of social run clubs over the years, I do think I've seen like in terms of suppression of descent, like, one club that I joined, I'd been in Melbourne for a little bit.

issy audio:

Melbourne,

phoebe & anna audio:

were doing merch. Mm. And I really wanted one of the singles. I was like, oh cool. But I didn't wanna race in it'cause I wanted to race in my run crew single.'cause I had a coach and I was like really proud to race in my run crew Single. Yeah. And whatever. I didn't think that was a big deal. And then it was like fed back to me through the grapevine that that had been frowned upon that I hadn't worn, I hadn't represented Yeah. The club club. Which like I thought was insane. Yeah. And luckily I hadn't I wouldn't say I was indoctrinated into this club at this stage. So I wasn't upset by it. Yeah. At all. But I was like, that is kind of messed up. Yeah. That I think that's a bit culty. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. Well, and but also I, I mean, we'll get into this later, but like you are not the typical type to fall into something like a cult.'cause you're not super vulnerable like you are confident within yourself. Whereas like if that was me, not saying that I have someone that's likely to get into a cult, but that was me and I'd received that news, I would've been beside myself. Whereas logically I know that that is silly. But if roles were reversed and it was myself, I would've found that really hard to deal with. Well,

issy audio:

But do you think what's interesting though is

phoebe & anna audio:

that you are

issy audio:

saying that you want to wear your run. Was it run crew? Yeah. You wanna wear your run crew. So maybe you just

phoebe & anna audio:

Accept Gary because she was still in the

issy audio:

because you in the other. Yeah. I was just gonna say like, I think that,'cause I'm trying to put myself in, in a different situation. I mean, I, I have a uniform now, I'm sponsored, so I obviously I'm gonna wear that. Before that I loved wearing the runners one. They do these really cute crops and everyone wear wore it and still do them now. Every time there's an event and you can spot the other people who are in runners, one who are at Gold Coast Marathon for example, and they're wearing it and it is nice. You get cheers from people who are wearing it and you can cheer people on and they know, you know, so it's, I wonder if, yeah, I don't think people get shamed if they're not wearing it, but

phoebe & anna audio:

but that's, that's the only part of it that I

issy audio:

that was bad. Okay.

phoebe & anna audio:

I don't think it, I think it's like a lovely

issy audio:

It's cute and

phoebe & anna audio:

people wearing matching. It's like people wearing matching costumes to a festival. Like, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that that's the toxic part, but I do think if you are being like, excluded because you are exhibiting a behavior that doesn't conform with the, then I think that's a bit impression of

issy audio:

came from top down?

phoebe & anna audio:

Oh yeah.

issy audio:

Oh Yeah. Yeah.

phoebe & anna audio:

That was top down.

issy audio:

The other thing as well, I think with this absolute leader figurehead, I think there's also maybe just elite runners in general sometimes, and I've seen this as well where it's, and it's, I don't even know if it's their fault, fault, I don't think they're doing anything wrong, but it's just that because people do really idolize them, I think that we can put these elite runners or people on a pedestal where you extrapolate their talents as a runner to be some virtuous thing that they have in all elements.

phoebe & anna audio:

effect.

issy audio:

Yeah. The halo effect. Exactly. And

phoebe & anna audio:

Oh yeah. They were a headband. So I were

issy audio:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

phoebe & anna audio:

if Jess Stinson told me to jump off a cliff,

issy audio:

Yeah,

phoebe & anna audio:

she would never. She's too nice. She's too nice. Yeah, she's a good one. But if she did,

issy audio:

so should we check in? Do we think that these figureheads culty, not culty red flags, where do you sit with those now? So that's our first pillar.

phoebe & anna audio:

Mm.

issy audio:

Temperature check on that one.

phoebe & anna audio:

I'm gonna say, I think it has elements, it has cult-like elements. However, what maybe makes it a bit different for me is that.

issy audio:

that

phoebe & anna audio:

I think when I'm thinking about like the goal of these figures for actually two things. For one, I'd say it's very decentralized in running. Yeah. Cult. You'd think there's like one central figurehead of the cult, whereas running there's many little sub what's like a sub religion called

issy audio:

called factions?

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah, yeah.

issy audio:

denominations. Yeah. denominations

phoebe & anna audio:

of the running cult religion and so I do think some of them have echoes of that. But for the most part, I don't think that they have the same insidious, we're here to build power that a cult leader might have and maybe some do, but I think largely they're people who are super motivated love running.

issy audio:

Yep. I can definitely see how from an outside perspective, the relationship looking at a coach coachy relationship could look cult-like. But I actually think that it's really valuable and I think that having like a kind of mentor to guide you is in the long term way more beneficial than harmful. And I would down the hill to say, not culty more, more

phoebe & anna audio:

depending on, but would you, would you say though, like at what element? like, as you've said, like you have really nice and like good coach and everything, but like

issy audio:

how

phoebe & anna audio:

you don't actually objectively, like you don't really know that. Yeah, that's true. Do you know what I mean? And it's like the same, like you've had one coach, that's like such a trademark of being a cult is that you follow one leader.

issy audio:

Yeah. Well I think

phoebe & anna audio:

Like, to not move around

issy audio:

around probably one way that an individual, if you are thinking, oh my gosh, am I in a toxic relationship with a coach, is maybe if you feel like they're starting to dictate things outside of a direct like training advice thing. If they're starting to

phoebe & anna audio:

To

issy audio:

other elements of your life or you feel like they're overstepping the line. Like I also do have experts who I seek other advice from. Like I've seen a sports psychologist specifically, you know, I have a different doctor or physio who will be giving me, not conflicting advice, but when I want specific advice on a specific thing, I'll go ask someone else.

phoebe & anna audio:

go them. Yeah,

issy audio:

Like I even have, yeah. Like just different people who are, who are guiding me in different ways throughout to support my running holistically. And the coach is kind of providing a specific channel of advice.

phoebe & anna audio:

I also think as long as it's not like a, you can't question this. Yeah. I think it's so important to be able question decisions, disagree with them, have your own perspective and, and yeah. Whereas I reckon a cult leader would be like, you can't, yeah. Suppression of descent. Like you can't push back, you can't disagree. But then so if you saw your co cult,

issy audio:

your cult

phoebe & anna audio:

coach to behave like unfavorably to someone else, do you think that would affect

issy audio:

your

phoebe & anna audio:

relationship with them?

issy audio:

How unfavorably

phoebe & anna audio:

Well,

issy audio:

No. No. I

phoebe & anna audio:

we can cut that. Your answer folks. That's your answer. She's

issy audio:

what do you mean?

phoebe & anna audio:

I told you

issy audio:

I dunno what you mean. I'm Or are they like just being a bit of a dick? Like

phoebe & anna audio:

No. Being a dickhead or like saying things that you know that they shouldn't say. Like, that's just like disrespectful or that you wouldn't want for them to say about you.

issy audio:

I would probably hold my coach to the same standard that I would hold like a friend to.

phoebe & anna audio:

Mm. That's good. That says good things about your relationship with them, I think.

issy audio:

so the second. Hallmark of cults that we could look out for in our running journey is the glorification of total commitment. So in cults specifically, this is normally built through behavioral control and ritualization, which I think is really common in running when you think about how many rituals we follow as runners, like the, the strict rigid training schedules, the particular times of the day and week that we run tapering. and I think that the glorification of suffering in particular and commitment is really prevalent in running at, in the culture at large. And what I'm really interested in is how we've kind of Absorb these messages from what's happening right now in the world of like elite sport and ultra endurance events and stuff like that. And then maybe how we internalize that and whether or not we are getting these messages that it's good to kind of suffer for the sport. And, um, also interested in whether or not we think that this suffering for the sport comes from group dynamics or whether we it's an internal drive or whether it comes from Instagram and social media and what you see in the media of athletes and is it culty, is it healthy? Is it good to push yourself?

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah.

issy audio:

How do you guys relate to this? I mean, do you relate to that glorification of total commitment, for example? would you ever feel like missing a session or slowing down is bringing you feelings of shame or guilt?

phoebe & anna audio:

Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah. 1000%. It's so, because from a distance, I'm like, oh, no, I don't think I do that. But then I look at that question of how do you feel about missing a session or skipping runs? And it's a ba it's a battle every day that I like fight with myself. I, yeah, every, every day that I don't do a session that's on my program

issy audio:

run

phoebe & anna audio:

See, I think, I actually think that you are, you're a lot better at this now, now than you were last year. I feel like I over the back of it a little bit. Yeah. Like I feel like if you weren't feeling good. You would, obviously you would be like upset and you would wish that you could do the session, but I don't think you would fight through it so much that like, no, July, 2024, Phoebe no. Would've done it. Definitely not. Yeah. Although I do still think I feel a little bit of shame when I'm not able to do everything that's in my program. Mm. If that is possibly the word. I'm not sure if that's

issy audio:

Do you think that the shame, but do you think that the shame comes from within the running community and within the cold, or do you think that that's just you putting a lot of pressure on yourself?

phoebe & anna audio:

I, I think it's me, but I think I put pressure on myself because of what I see externally, if that makes sense. So I don't think there, I know that there's not a single person in the world sitting there being like, oh, Phoebe's not running enough. Like I actually is no part of my mind that thinks that that's what's happening. I'm sure my coach looks at it and is like, oh God, p skip chop sessions. But it, but as in he trusts me to make my own decisions. Yeah. But it's more that.

issy audio:

I

phoebe & anna audio:

can see other people able to do those things, and then it's the shame of oh, why can't I do them? Yeah. Would be the simplest. Yeah. But I, I think I like completely agree. mean, it's part of the whole reason why I

issy audio:

I

phoebe & anna audio:

deleted Strava, because you don't wanna see the fact that other people are doing stuff that you are not doing. Whereas like, if you weren't feeling good and you didn't go for a run in the morning, even though that's the best thing for you, socially, then if you were to like hop on Strava or speak to friends and they all ran this morning, that like, shame is gonna sort of like like multiplied. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Because you're like, well, they did it. Why couldn't I kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think?

issy audio:

Yeah, it's interesting. I think that I, I relate to all of these feelings, but then I guess what I'm trying to think about through the lens, is running a cult, it's so hard to decouple that from just the general hyper productivity world that we live in and that

phoebe & anna audio:

that

issy audio:

I'm not sure if this is a running specific problem or it's like a me problem. Yeah. Where even when you're just talking about the Strava thing, is that because, the fear of missing out or would you feel I would probably feel shitty if I didn't go for a run, but I'd also feel shitty if I didn't work.

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. So

issy audio:

I just don't know.

phoebe & anna audio:

know. Like

issy audio:

I think it's definitely a problem. It's definitely like a tox. People can have a toxic relationship with productivity, and I'm not immune to that, but I just don't know if that's the culty element of Run club because I don't feel like, well, especially because I'm now remote with my training group, so I don't actually have any accountability. Like I don't rock up to training, no one knows. I often train by myself or with one other person. I run by myself. I don't really feel that group pressure to do anything. I don't like long run by myself. I'm completely happy to train by myself. So I feel like it's quite internal and I think that I would feel

phoebe & anna audio:

feel

issy audio:

I don't know if guilt is the right word. I think I would feel disappointed because I would feel like I could see the goal slipping away if I know that I missed too many training

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. I wonder if what it is that makes it different from just any other hobby that you know, have a tendency to wanna feel like we're being productive all the time around it's so trackable and it's so easy to see when you haven't done it. Yeah. Or you haven't kept up or, and I also think, I don't know if this is right, but like,

issy audio:

the

phoebe & anna audio:

fear of fitness losing me, fear of me losing fitness, rather fitness is losing me. It is probably the biggest, like the biggest thing that stops me from having like days off at a time when I, when I actually probably do need it. And I think in in terms of trying to understand, I don't know whether how to break apart whether this is like something that makes it more cult-like or not, something that makes it very on the side of an unhealthy relationship is like obviously when you are putting yourself or your body at risk or in harm's way. Mm. In order to pursue like,

issy audio:

Yeah.

phoebe & anna audio:

like, or avoid it. Like avoid the fear of losing something that's like, yeah, like I'm trying to, I was trying to think of something, a hobby of like being active that's not as trackable, like like people that love surfing and I am obviously not invested in surfing like I am running. Um, I don't know if it's like the type of person maybe that would do it, but I can't imagine there being a sense of shame or guilt for not going surfing. No. Maybe, maybe. It just depends how deep in any community like that you are. Like,

issy audio:

I dunno, if the model train drivers are doing this though.

phoebe & anna audio:

The model train. Yeah. But just like as universally. Yeah. cause you know, so I feel like every single runner, if they haven't gone for a run, they feel a bit guilty or whatnot. Whereas I just, I don't think it, it's like transferable to other things as much. Yeah. And maybe it is because it's more measurable. Mm-hmm. Like I know that like for instance, my mom goes open water swimming most days, but some days obviously it's like choppy and they don't swim as far, but they don't really track it, so it's just not really as much of a thing. Whereas running, you know exactly how far you've gone, you know what pace you,

issy audio:

you know, it's so parameterized you can track, compare, especially when it comes to that comparison element because there not only can you compare your PB to someone, but you can compare how many Ks you're running a week. You can compare how long your long run was. You can compare how fast your one K reps were. You can compare,

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah.

issy audio:

like it's not even, there's every single variable you can compare what heart rate you were running, like what your heart rate was when you were running at A particular pace. There is

phoebe & anna audio:

actually, you know, the other thing that makes it kind of more on the cult side as far as a hobby goes is the total commitment piece. Yeah. Because with running and particularly with marathons, if we wanna talk about the cult of

issy audio:

marathons, yeah.

phoebe & anna audio:

they do you have the opportunity to change optimize every element of your life? Your life in pursuit of this goal life. Yeah. Most hobbies don't require that with marathons. You know, work becomes something that's impacting your recovery.

issy audio:

Yeah. Yeah.

phoebe & anna audio:

What do you eat? How do you sleep? What alcohol you drinking?

issy audio:

Social life.

phoebe & anna audio:

Social life. every single thing you can optimize it. I'm sure there are a lot of, I'm sure like triathlons similar and you know, any, probably any sport that you are. definitely at a, at an elite level. But this at an amateur level. Yeah. I mean, you saying before like you're planning holiday around, like we can still end up molding our entire lives around it. Yeah.

issy audio:

And as I was researching this as well, something that really stood out to me was that foot in door theory where it's like you just sign up for one little thing, oh, I'm gonna sign a ma, I'm gonna do a marathon in six months. And then before you know it, like it's so quickly, just sucks you in and, and before you know it, and it's almost did I even choose this for myself

phoebe & anna audio:

or Yeah. Like, or like am I somehow just hear? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cult

issy audio:

of Marathons specifically is so real. And even you were reading out some of your listener submissions last week when you, people were saying, why have you signed up for a marathon and no shade to this listener?'cause like, I wish you all the best. But they were like, I don't know why I just didn't. like, is that just, I would love to actually know like what it was

phoebe & anna audio:

it was about the

issy audio:

the marathon and was it because other people were doing it? Because, did you feel like you had to justify yourself as a runner by you're not a real runner until you've done a marathon? Yeah. Or I think the other thing that's so interesting as well, when we talk about the psychological theories about the cult, one thing that running really sticks out as is it can be self-harm. Like it can be detrimental to your overall wellbeing, but you just keep doing it. You keep going over and over again. And I'm curious to know how much you guys know about that theory of the cognitive dissidents and effort justification. I know Phoebe, you. Psychology

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. No, no.

issy audio:

you, is this, is this, is this your, do you relate to this? Is this what you've

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. I mean, and I think it can. So, for those who aren't familiar with cognitive dissonance, it's basically when you hold two

issy audio:

conflicting.

phoebe & anna audio:

opinions and you try and justify one, it's basically when you tr are trying to align and, sorry, in the terms of the way that, compares to marathon training is you put in so much effort mm-hmm. And that means that you almost have to, value it more. Yeah. Or, or convince yourself that you do value it more. Yeah. Because you're like, I'm sacrificing so much

issy audio:

It's like when you go into it, maybe you just thought it was gonna be a fun little challenge and then Yeah. The more cost that you sink into it and it's completely

phoebe & anna audio:

irrational.

issy audio:

you would think that the harder it gets and the more you're suffering, Less interest you would get

phoebe & anna audio:

in

issy audio:

pursuing that goal and seeing it through. But actually you're prescribing all of this, meaning all of a sudden your brain is Working overtime to be like, no, this is, this is so meaningful. This is so important. And it always has like a religious element to it. And I,

phoebe & anna audio:

big deal. It does. And, but I think as well, like the stakes get higher as well as the, the, yeah. Yeah. So then it's kind of that I don't know, it just sort of like goes around. is

issy audio:

is

phoebe & anna audio:

me,

issy audio:

Yeah. As I was doing the research for this, I was like, oh, this one probably

phoebe & anna audio:

hits oh,

issy audio:

of all

phoebe & anna audio:

is insane. the, yeah, like I've literally, it's one of these, the examples, it's like when the demands and sacrifices or physical discomfort or pain becomes disproportionate to the goal or challenge, like last year, for instance, like I was in so much pain when I was overseas, but all I could think about was how much I wanted to do like bail in marathon. And like the need to do that because and I kind of laugh about it now, but it's actually kind of sad thinking about it. Like, I kind of felt like my whole, not my whole life's purpose, but there was so much purpose in that one race, which is I don't know. And like, similar to you, like I had like, looked at all of these like locations that I was holidaying in and then I kind of thought, you know, I've done all this, so then obviously that means that the marathon means this much to me. Like that kind of thing. Yeah. And it's just this full on, they feed into each other, they, they completely feed into each other. Yeah. Yeah.

issy audio:

Had you already,'cause I was thinking about this, For context, I had an injury scare last week and I, there was a possibility that I wasn't gonna run some of the races that I had coming up

phoebe & anna audio:

up

issy audio:

and I hadn't booked some accommodation yet. So I'm trying to run Copenhagen half Marathon, in September. Hadn't booked, I hadn't paid for the accommodation or the flights to Copenhagen yet. And so before I found out the results of my scan to know if I was gonna be able to run, I didn't actually care that much because I was like, oh, that's fine. I'll just not, like, I hadn't made the sacrifice yet. I hadn't actually bought into it yet. Whereas I think that had that been in two months and I'd already had the sunken cost of planning the trip around it and maybe not doing certain things and planning it, then I would've been really deep into it.

phoebe & anna audio:

also like we were doing a whole podcast series on it. Yeah, true. Like that. I feel like that also put so much pressure for both of us in our minds and we justified the amount of effort we were putting into it. We were trying to record videos like we were doing so much around it. like more micro example. where I think this plays into it is, I feel like for people outside of the running sphere or early on in their journeys, it can seem outrageous how much people spend on running shoes and super shoes in particular. But when you are months into a marathon build and you are, everything you can, you're working so hard, then all of a sudden spending$300 on a pair of shoes to get a few extra percent feels like the best money spent ever. Ever. Yeah, because you're like, the amount of work I have put into this. Yeah. If I can do this thing that's going to help me, better on the day, feels like an easy justification.

issy audio:

Yeah. I have one friend who has this motto where he'll spend,'cause he just, he, completes running with health and he's like, there's no budget. if it's going to, if it's gonna help

phoebe & anna audio:

that.

issy audio:

But all of the things, whether it's physio or massage or shoes or anything, I think if it's anything health, he's happy to spend the money on. He know he's not gonna spend money on

phoebe & anna audio:

on clothes.

issy audio:

for the sake of it, but like that will be help his health, he will definitely, money on it. But I just, can I redo this little passage of something just, just while we're here and you tell me what you think? So this says, I could come up with so many reasons why. For me, doing a marathon is a very bad idea. One, based on my track record, I will almost certainly get burnt out, injured, or be sick the whole time. Two lots of money will be spent on food gear, et cetera. Three, I've already overcommitted myself across my job, cheeky running, and I already feel like those things are negatively impacting my social life,

phoebe & anna audio:

social life. Such good,

issy audio:

among other things.

phoebe & anna audio:

good riding. Wow.

issy audio:

Four, I don't sleep well enough or have enough downtime to absorb my training. Five many cold, dark, early mornings where my alarm will go off and I'll feel only regret.

phoebe & anna audio:

enough.

issy audio:

And yet all I can feel is this sense of anticipation. So do you wanna tell me again why you're not in the cult?

phoebe & anna audio:

Oh, well, so

issy audio:

me, explain to me the cognitive dissonance there. The.

phoebe & anna audio:

The cognitive dissonance there. No,

issy audio:

If anyone didn't catch it,

phoebe & anna audio:

recovering.

issy audio:

Yeah, she's recover. If anyone didn't put two and two together, that's from Phoebe's

phoebe & anna audio:

because, sorry. Yes.

issy audio:

About signing up for

phoebe & anna audio:

romance. I did write those words seven days ago. I actually thought that was the Oxford dictionary definition of cognitive dissonance. They're prime example.

issy audio:

Yeah.

phoebe & anna audio:

I just want to, I just wanna do it.

issy audio:

you just wanted do it.

phoebe & anna audio:

I just wanna do a marathons. It's so hard. No. pain, the sacrifice. I don't feel like that's a cognitive dissonance thing for me in the sense that, it, it doesn't have to be something that I end up finding really painful and it burns me out and it can be something that is challenging yet brings me joy. Mm-hmm. And so that's like balance that I'm trying to find. That I've found what I've done once or twice before in my training, but I haven't always succeeded in finding that balance. So I feel like I don't believe that everyone who does a marathon and finds it hard has an unhealthy relationship with it necessarily. I feel like there is a way, but I feel like if I am pushing through pain exhaustion, then that's when it will be veering on the side of unhealthy.

issy audio:

Because I was actually thinking, yeah, no, very well, and I don't wanna take the piss.'cause that was real. I actually really enjoyed that soft, it was Really good.

phoebe & anna audio:

Fair point. Well made.

issy audio:

um, tender that in court. But, I was thinking when I was reading about this as well, I was like, gosh, isn't it like, I was like, is that such a bad thing that we are so neurotic and so willing to find a positive, meaningful spin on everything? in a way I think it's really beautiful that through something being so awful, like it's clearly some type of evolutionary survival mechanism

phoebe & anna audio:

that

issy audio:

really bad things, you're gonna be able to find meaning and purpose and derive some lesson from it and you're gonna grow. I just think it's so funny that in this instance it's completely self-inflicted pain.

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. Yeah.

issy audio:

see why that's a really important skill to be able to have. if you're going through something really awful, I can see why our brains do that as a self-protection mechanism, but also

phoebe & anna audio:

It's like an evolutionary

issy audio:

Yeah. I think it's, I think it's like really important to be able to do that when you're going through something really tough to be able to be like, what is the lesson? How can I drive meaning? And I think that is what makes life beautiful, because there's highs and lows, and I see the amazing power that can have. It's just so funny to me that we're like,

phoebe & anna audio:

like,

issy audio:

completely

phoebe & anna audio:

this is all, yeah. Yeah.

issy audio:

what?

phoebe & anna audio:

You know what? I feel like it, it's because cognitive dissonance is more like retrospective and at least like about thinking ahead to the marathon. I'm trying to position it in my head, I've consciously tried to devalue it so that in my mind I'm like, I don't have a goal for time. I don't have a goal All I wanna do is rock up and feel good and get there and enjoy the process. And I feel like I have to keep every day when I'm struggling with oh, how much should I run? Should I push through this? I have to keep coming back to that. it's not that important. Yeah. In order to stop me trying to, work really hard to, to build up that. Whereas before and with Berlin, like we had big goals that we really cared about and really wanted and then that obviously makes it a lot

issy audio:

oh, it's so easy to so quickly lose sight of what the point is, like what the goal is. And I'm actually really grateful that I had that. I had four days off running. It was the tiniest little blip, but because it was almost so catastrophic, it just completely reshifted. And I was like, that's right. It actually, yeah. Now I'm just so happy, so grateful to be able to participate in it and to do it. And I still am going to try really hard in the races that I have coming up. Yeah. But it was like I was flying a little bit close to the sun. I reckon I started, I started just losing

phoebe & anna audio:

is a good little reminder

issy audio:

I've had such, I've had probably a full year injury, free really good races. It's so easy to just feel like you're kind of on that hamster wheel of like the next, the next,

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. Yeah. So true. That's a good little, scared of it. Oh,

issy audio:

it was a good, and the timing was really good. Like it's, it didn't, well actually I was supposed to race on the weekend, but I was happy to miss that one. Like I was Yeah. Who can Not Another road 10 K. Yeah. I know. I have to live, I have to live the goal. Have to live another day. okay, so on the whole after that chat, temperature check, is it culty? Are we victims of it? Where are we at?

phoebe & anna audio:

we at? I think the, psychology and stuff behind it, running becomes more like personal rather than cult-like for me, yeah. Personally. So I feel like I am almost cooled off a little. Mm. in comparison to when we spoke about the first pillar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about you? Hmm. I mean, I do think running rewards, total commitment, as in. You tend to perform better, there's a sense that you'll perform better the more things that you do in and around your life. So I think like there's something structurally about running that does lend itself to this

issy audio:

sort

phoebe & anna audio:

sort of model where, where always more you can do. However, I do agree with you that I think a lot of these pressures and effects that we see are more internal, more generalized across fitness probably than necessarily just running.

issy audio:

Yeah. I think I totally agree. I think that, yeah, I think it speaks more to the culture where we're at, where we just kind of are on that hamster wheel where we can't, we have to be productive. I know so many friends who all their hobbies have to be productivity related or side hustle related. You have to be able to monetize it or you have to be able to be getting more fit from it. and I don't think that it's running cult specific. The only red flag that I get with this, with running is the glorification of particular people who seem to have a no rest mindset and just like a run at all costs thing, which I think is more, yeah, do hard things just these extreme pressures on their body. I think.

phoebe & anna audio:

I think

issy audio:

More harmful than good. I don't think that we should be like idolizing that or Yeah. perpetuating that and having that filter through. But I don't think that that's cult-like I just think it's a little bit, yeah, I just, it just doesn't sit right with me. But I don't think it's cult-like, and I think that we're not in a cult. We have other problems mentally,

phoebe & anna audio:

mentally. Yeah. Yeah.

issy audio:

don't, but that was not the question. That's not what's on trial here.

phoebe & anna audio:

No, but I, no, in relation to that though, I don't know, working in the public health system. everyone kind of has issues, but running is such a positive. Yeah, yeah. Advice in comparison to if you're talking about people who need to be productive, people who always need to be doing something or like a little bit neurotic. there are so many different avenues that are like, so harmful, but like running obviously it can be harmful, but I feel like it's such a positive way to totally like put your energy into

issy audio:

yep. Yeah, I feel like the positive benefits on a personal level far, far, far outweigh Yeah. Like the total commitment thing. Yeah. Like, you probably shouldn't feel guilty, but the people who are gonna feel really guilty for not running are probably gonna find something else to feel guilty about. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So

phoebe & anna audio:

So let's discuss the last pillar is social isolation. And dependency. LinkedIn with group identity. Izzy, tell us a bit about this pillar.

issy audio:

So I see this pillar being, specifically with running. It's where your whole world, you kind of blink and all of a sudden. The only people you're associating with are other runners and your so whole social group is within the run club. All of your social outings and events and gatherings are running related. You may have found that you've lost touch with friends that you had before you started running. Um, purpose or not on purpose. Maybe you're seeing your family less because you just don't feel like you have the time to commit to seeing them. Yeah. If you are in a relationship with a non runner, maybe that's suffering, maybe you feel like they just don't quite understand. You don't understand the commitment you are making and causing rifts Yeah. In those relationships. So I am really interested to hear what your experiences are with that. Do you relate to, or any of those things, have you been on either side of that or have you seen people do that, witnessed it?

phoebe & anna audio:

I definitely think that running a lot has made me a lot closer to other people that I run with. and maybe it's because I have, I'm lucky enough to have a good foundation of friends outside of running, so I don't feel like I've completely been withdrawn from those groups, which I'm sure some people do feel like, but I definitely am a lot more consumed or my time is like a lot more consumed by. The people that I run with, even though for the last however long, I haven't actually been running. Mm mm I feel like, I don't think I've lost touch with non-running friends. I do feel like though, as I've, I've moved cities a few times as an adult and one of the big ways that I've made friends through moving cities, particularly coming to Melbourne was through running. And so in some senses there is like a social dependency there. I think what's interesting is like I think that running really does facilitate strong ties and bonding. You spend a lot of time together. You consistently, there's shared trauma training for things. You know, you're working really hard. You have a lot. in common to talk through. It's, you don't have your phones with you, you're running side by side. It facilitates kind of really open conversation. Like there are a lot of reasons why I think you can form really strong bonds with the people that you run with. Again, more so than perhaps other hobbies. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think it, it just is a lot more accessible as well in the sense that like, maybe this is just my own personal experience, but if I was to meet up with someone for a coffee, just one-on-one, I would have to be quite close friends with them. Whereas if I was to go for a run with someone one-on-one, one run on, well one-on-one, I would pretty much do that with everyone. Yeah. I agree with that because I would enjoy

issy audio:

do you think that you are building closer? I agree, but then I sometimes find that I just have all these kind of running acquaintances, Whereas maybe if you go and have a coffee with someone, you are, you are relating to them on so many other things. Like you don't just have running. Because then what happens when you, if you form those friendships through running, are you then also just as close to those people once running is taken away? Or is it like a circumstantial bond?

phoebe & anna audio:

just from my own experience in the last little life,'cause I haven't been running, I feel like I'm just as close with the people that I did run with be. But maybe that is because we formed that bond prior to, yeah. There's almost like a level of running friend when you start hanging out with them outside of running as well. And that's like a different level of you and you sort of need to that barrier a little bit. But I think that's like any friendship, there's this, there's a surface level and then you can get deeper. I think you can definitely get there with running. However, I definitely don't think that there's anything.

issy audio:

anything

phoebe & anna audio:

Wrong with that. Apart from the fact that yeah, when you get injured it can be really isolating. Mm-hmm. And like you make a big effort like we've discussed to still come along to coffees and Yeah. All that sort of thing. But I think for a lot of people, they get injured and they can kind of fall off and they're all of a sudden they're out of the loop with the conversations. Yeah. All people talking about, and, when you're not in the habit of also seeing each other outside of running, then I think that can be hard. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

issy audio:

I think as well for a lot of people, I'm trying to imagine a circumstance. the people who I spent most time with when I was 22, 21, probably before I started running. Yeah. There's maybe a handful who I'm really, really close with, who I still see all the time. But then there's a lot of people who I don't see nearly as much and you. Coincided with when I really got into running and started spending more time with running and making new running friends. But also like, it's just a change of lifestyle and it's just growing up like it's, it's hard to decouple those two things of thinking. Well, yeah, I grew out of partying and I found new hobbies. Like not to be definitely, no. Like I loved both phases of life, but I think again, just if you looked at those two facts, you could easily be like, oh, she got into running and lost all her friends. But I make a really, really big effort to the people who I have, all my best friends, basically are not runners and make a really big effort to still meet on their time schedule

phoebe & anna audio:

schedule.

issy audio:

well

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah, yeah,

issy audio:

and not just like be so rigid in the no, I'm getting up at 6:00 AM to run on a Sunday morning. Yeah. And, and I think it can just be like,'cause the clash of lifestyle is a real thing. Like for sure if all your friends are hanging out late at night and it just does not suit your lifestyle, it can be hard to maintain those close bonds.

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. I feel like maybe more than the social, piece. What's interesting about this pillar is the group identity piece. Mm-hmm. Because I do think You can get a bit running is an identity related activity somehow. Like you are a runner or you're not. And we, we've mainly spoken about that in the past in terms of how limiting it can be to people when they don't identify as a runner. But in the same token, having that identity as a runner can also be,

issy audio:

be,

phoebe & anna audio:

can have negative effects as well. Because again, when you can't run, then what does that mean? You're no longer, like, you're losing a part that's like a death, a part of your identity. Like it becomes a much bigger thing. Whereas other hobbies, like you can like cooking, but you don't say I'm a cook. Cook. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean?

issy audio:

I never, I didn't say I was a runner for so long. Like, I was like never identified as being a runner until maybe recently. Yeah. It's, yeah. I also think it's interesting context about when humans have always had group identities in group identities. And for such a long time of human history, it has been religious organized, religious groups where people have gotten together over these shared values, shared belief systems organized at similar times of the week to when people meet

phoebe & anna audio:

morning.

issy audio:

Sunday Mornings. it's so interesting to me. Like I do wonder if people are searching for Yeah. The identity and that group and that community when we live in a world where community can be really hard to find. It makes sense that people form these really strong group identities in run clubs because where else are you gonna do it? And I think that some people maybe work can give them that group identity, but I don't think it's.

phoebe & anna audio:

think it's,

issy audio:

Don't think it's unique to running. I think that a lot of people seek community and there's a reason why so many people gravitate towards running because it is so rewarding. It gives back so much. Yeah,

phoebe & anna audio:

I completely agree.'cause I think we've even spoken about before, church for so long, and Faith, as you were saying, like it's every Sunday that was so many people, religion aside. The reason why they enjoyed doing it so much was because they felt they were a part of something. And I feel like that is exactly the same with running, even though some people probably don't actually necessarily love the act of it, but they love feeling like they're part of it. And that is a huge thing. Like even I feel now, like I've re, I've really struggled because if people ask oh, or comment, like, you know how people just comment like, oh, she's a runner. Or do you run

issy audio:

Mm

phoebe & anna audio:

And just being like, no. Yeah. Like that is, I know that it is only words, but it's

issy audio:

Mm.

phoebe & anna audio:

like on a deeper level it actually, it kind of like hurts. Yeah. To be like, oh no, I actually, like, I don't identify. That. Yeah. When it's been something that for so long has been like literally part of who you, you are part of like Yeah, exactly. It's literally like my, with part of my identity. Yeah. Which, yeah. Which I do think is, it can be like a risk factor is like you feel like you are and something this isn't explicitly, part of these pillars, but like something that's always generally true of a cult is like there are negative repercussions for leaving it.

issy audio:

Mm.

phoebe & anna audio:

mm And e even if some of these are like internal in your internal narrative, I feel like it makes it hard to walk away. The more, um, intertwined is to your identity, the more hard it is to walk away or get kicked out if you're injured and you just can't do it anymore. Yeah, definitely. which, yeah, I think that's all a bit culty. alright, so this has been a long discussion. how are we feeling after this chat about the social isolation and, dependency that is linked with group identity.

issy audio:

I'm feeling less culty. I'm feeling the least culty about that one on my own personal journey.

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. But now I'm thinking about vulnerable people as well, because again, uh, a classic thing of cults is that they target vulnerable people. and I do think with running, and even like, this is kind of a joke, but also not even with oh, like meet your partner at a run club like date. Like you're kind of targeting not that single people, vulnerable people per se, but they might be like looking for connection and looking for that. And so I do think there are almost, as I said for the previous one as well, there are elements of running that really lend itself to this kind of structure of a cult. However, I do feel like the lack of like an overarching, Motive to like be wanting to, I think it's just, social effects. It's just people, it's just ingroup, outgroup. Like, I wanna be part of this, I wanna be part of this community. and you kind of become more homogenous the more you sort of the get in it. The and yeah. And I think that's, yeah. Less, less because of a cult and more just human psychology. Mm.

issy audio:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think all of these hallmarks are definitely things that on paper look like running fits the bill in so many of these different ways, but then I think once you actually dig into it, like, yeah, I think much more positive than negative

phoebe & anna audio:

Yeah. Yeah.

issy audio:

And I can see why maybe all together, if they were all true all of the time, it could be culty. But Even if people fall into bad habits in one or two of these areas, or they.

phoebe & anna audio:

they.

issy audio:

Find themselves going way too hard in a marathon block and getting burnt out, Or they go through a period where they. haven't hung out with their friends in a while. Like, I think I literally got on the podcast when we did the table week and I was like, you should not see your friends that week. Do not

phoebe & anna audio:

ever. Izzy is our cult leader.

issy audio:

I'm the goal leader. Yeah. Maybe I'm just like drunk the Kool-Aid. I'm there.

phoebe & anna audio:

she's just adjacent though.

issy audio:

I'm just adjacent.

phoebe & anna audio:

But

issy audio:

yeah, I think, but then when you break it down, I can see they're all positive. Like they're all having a really positive impact on so many people's lives. So I just, not a cult.

phoebe & anna audio:

No, I think, yeah, I completely agree. I think, looking at it, you're like, oh my gosh, yes, this is running is all of these things, like of these different pillars. But yeah, as you kind of dig into it, you sort of think the opposite and less so cult-like and more just community and people just wanting and striving for that sense of belonging in a sense. That said, I still feel like. There are so many things that we've talked through that are good warning signs to be aware of in terms of is your relationship with running becoming a little bit cult-like or are you Yeah. A, a less healthy than it could be? Mm-hmm. And yeah, I think we all agree. Like, I, I don't think running is actually cult, I don't think that there's, there's someone who's benefiting off you, getting obsessed with running. But I think a lot of the way that the running community and running as a sport is set up can lend itself to similar risk factors of, you know, becoming obsessed and it becoming part of your identity and you putting yourself in harm's way. So I feel like there's still really useful, hopefully thought provoking, pillars there

issy audio:

Yeah. People can check in with themselves. Yeah. And I wonder if a lot of these things as well is they're like hallmarks of success. If you wanted to be really good at something, if you wanted to throw yourself in 100% or something, this is probably what an Olympian's life would look like. And probably the biggest trap that people are falling into is treating it like a job, acting like they're an Olympian when it's just not con, just doesn't fit with their lifestyle. It's just a complete incompatibility. Yeah. Alright. So none of us are in a cult.

phoebe & anna audio:

Oh, I'm definitely

issy audio:

I'm definitely not. Yeah. Um,

phoebe & anna audio:

definitely not. Anna's the only one I wanna be in it though. Izzy, thank you so much for that conversation. Yeah, thank you. That was so much fun. And listeners, I, we are so keen to hear thoughts. Do you think running's a cult? Are you, where are you at in your cult journey? Are you recovering like me? Do you think Phoebe's in a cult? That's what we wanna

issy audio:

Are you in Phoebe's cult? That's the real question. This is typical cult leader stuff to

phoebe & anna audio:

say? Yeah. Yeah. Textbook. She's onto me. Come to me.

issy audio:

yeah, join. We just do a few sacred

phoebe & anna audio:

rituals.

issy audio:

just drink each other's blood. But apart from that, it's fine.

anna audio:

Alright. I think that's it for today.

phoebe audio:

I think it is. That was such a fun chat.

anna audio:

That was a very interesting chat. I am still not sure about you being in cult recovery, but

phoebe audio:

I know, I bet there's some science out there about cult denial and I'm sure that I'm ticking some of those boxes.

anna audio:

We'll wait and see. I'm sure someone will tell us.

phoebe audio:

We will. Thank you everyone so much for listening. Thank you everyone who supported us by buying merch throughout the week, and we can't wait to be in your ears next week.

anna audio:

Bye.

phoebe audio:

week.

anna audio:

Bye. you are on the phone with your boyfriend. She's, and you're like, do.

phoebe audio:

on the phone. So it's like

anna audio:

you're like going like

phoebe audio:

Pedal. Yeah. Yeah. she actually play that song?

anna audio:

No, that was just the first song that came to my head. That's just

phoebe audio:

just your GoTo

anna audio:

Swift. You belong with me if anyone didn't recognize.