Running and Endometriosis with Grace Tame

Welcome to a new week!

We are so excited to welcome back Grace Tame to the podcast to discuss running with endometriosis. One in seven Australians lives with the chronic disease, which can cause pain, heavy menstrual bleeding, bloating, nausea, and other symptoms.

So how do you run with endo? We chat about Grace’s experience with endometriosis, how she personally manages her symptoms, and how she still manages to run.

We also check in on Anna’s pregnancy over a delicious mango smoothie, courtesy of the wonderful Dairy Farmers Australia – thank you for making this episode of Cheeky Run Club possible!

LINKS:

◦   Check out our latest Substack, ‘Welcome to the poor woman’s altitude training’

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, TikTok, Substack, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

Music produced by Hugh Raper & logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

Transcript

anna intro: 0:00

cheeky Run Club recognizes that every day we live, work, and run on aboriginal land.

phoebe intro: 0:05

This episode is sponsored by dairy farmers and their newest flavor edition to the protein smoothie range, mango and vanilla, one of which Anna will be taste testing for the first time Later this episode. Mm-hmm. Can't wait.

anna intro: 0:20

Welcome to Cheeky Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello, Phoebe. Hello and hello, listeners.

phoebe intro: 0:30

Today we are tackling the topic of running with endometriosis, with the help of talented runner, endo Warrior, and our friend Grace tne. We'll also do a pregnancy check-in with Anna as when this episode comes out, you'll be exactly 26 weeks. Woohoo.

anna intro: 0:47

Woo

phoebe intro: 0:47

Wow. Very exciting. And that's gonna be a standing segment from here on out.

anna intro: 0:52

think you're about to say standing ovation.

phoebe intro: 0:54

I mean, it

anna intro: 0:55

Say, I can do that,

phoebe intro: 0:56

That's what you're looking for. You deserve a standing ovation. I'll give you an any day. Um, but before we do, we'll kick it off, as always, our notable runs of the week. Anna, I wanna hear about your worst run or running related activity this week.

anna intro: 1:12

This is tough because I was so happy to do it and to get through it, but my worst run was on Saturday was a long run. we ran well. I ran 16 ks. And it was raining, which was fine, but it was very stop start because we were going up north of Melbourne and we were going to try and run along the river, but it was flooded. So there were a few kind of false starts in a

phoebe intro: 1:37

sense. There were,

anna intro: 1:38

Oh wow. And then we were trying to find a toilet, but then we couldn't find a bathroom. It was just very, The stop starting is no good for me. Mm. I do like, I get into a little bit of a rhythm. I feel like it takes me five or six Ks to get into a bit of a rhythm. Yeah. Because like at the start, remember at the start I was like, in ba I was battling.

phoebe intro: 1:57

You were, you did say to me, you weren't sure how many more long runs you'd be. Yeah. Was that just heat of the moment you weren't feeling good and you said it? Or do you genuinely, are you genuinely like, oh, I don't know if, I'll try 16 Ks again this weekend?

anna intro: 2:09

I think I'll try 16 Ks again this weekend, but I, am genuine where I don't think I'll be doing 16 ks for much longer. Much, yeah. Like each week. I'm teetering on not doing

phoebe intro: 2:20

Yeah, you could just do couple Ks less if you need to. Yeah. Do you think at some point, at what point do you think you'll need to slow down?

anna intro: 2:28

I don't know.

phoebe intro: 2:29

is it the pace that feels,

anna intro: 2:31

it's just running in general. Because I remember you saying at one point, oh, we can slow down, but it's not actually slowing down doesn't make a difference. It's just actually the motion of running that is quite hard. Yeah. Mm. but yes, anyway, so that is my worst run.

phoebe intro: 2:45

Sad.

anna intro: 2:46

Sad because I feel like normally the Saturday long runs are the, the best

phoebe intro: 2:49

also had to race off afterwards and you couldn't stick around for coffee. So I feel like True. You know, that doesn't help.

anna intro: 2:55

anyway, what was your worst run,

phoebe intro: 2:57

Well,

anna intro: 2:58

well, or running related activity?

phoebe intro: 2:59

sad to say'cause I wanted it to be my best run, but it probably has to be the 5K race I did. Not that it was bad at all really, but it was an interesting thing set up. There were just, there were only eight of us who turned up. So there were like eight of us on the line. It was actually quite funny as well. We're all chatting beforehand, Okay, what time's everyone wanting to do, yeah.

anna intro: 3:23

to do, yeah. To see if you could run together. Yeah.

phoebe intro: 3:24

Like no one had any, like, there were like a few who had vaguely similar, but I had no one anywhere either side of me. Like people were like way faster or a bit slower. and the other funny thing is we got to the start line and they're like, okay, take your marks.

anna intro: 3:42

Oh,

phoebe intro: 3:42

Oh, it's not working.

anna intro: 3:44

Oh no.

phoebe intro: 3:45

It was like the longest silence and then we were just, and then it was a little bit of like waiting around the line. No, that was all fine though. And it was a really nice night. It just, I was, I ran the whole thing by myself, like every second of it. And it's just so hard to push yourself in that

anna intro: 4:04

it's such a slog. Well, particularly because even beforehand you're like, yeah, I haven't really thought about it at all. I feel like those environments, you really need people around you to like push

phoebe intro: 4:14

yourself. Yeah.

anna intro: 4:14

Yeah. But I was getting text updates from your partner, Sean, and he was like. I think after a few laps, he was like, yep. Bye. By yourself.

phoebe intro: 4:22

Yeah. It would've been the most boring race to observe. Like it just would not have been exciting. it was also like I, had a massive day at work and finished and, I had 15 minutes to quickly get to the track, pick up my stuff and start warming up. And I just like wasn't, it didn't feel like a race. Yeah. Like, it honestly didn't, and I hadn't thought about what I'd eaten that day. I just yeah. It was like just rocked up and went for a run. So, the highlight was actually after the race. a bunch of the girls that I ran with who I hadn't met before, were like, oh, do you wanna join us for a cool down? And so we did a little cool down together.

anna intro: 4:53

Oh, nice.

phoebe intro: 4:54

And it was really nice. I actually feel like that was the nicest part. We kind of just like. Chatting and like getting to know each other and it felt like a sense of comradery and that was really nice. Yeah. But yeah, that I, I didn't get my goal of, But my goal was 18 minutes. Okay. And I did like 18, 20. Yeah. Like, I could see, I could see on my watch that I was getting slower and I just. Couldn't, couldn't summon up the energy to try any harder.

anna intro: 5:20

I, I feel everyone's been there

phoebe intro: 5:21

there. Yeah, we've all been there anyway. What was your best run of the week?

anna intro: 5:25

mine was a session on Thursday purely.'cause I, I felt like I, I was quite proud to get through it'cause I wasn't sure if I would be able to, I think, yeah, come back to what I said before. Every single session or even run that I do afterwards, I'm like, Woohoo, I did

phoebe intro: 5:41

Yeah.

anna intro: 5:41

of thing. Which is,'cause you never really know when it's gonna be your last Yeah. But

phoebe intro: 5:45

We should all have that attitude

anna intro: 5:47

Yeah. It's actually a really good attitude to have because every time you do something you're like, amazing. I, I

phoebe intro: 5:52

I, I did it.

anna intro: 5:53

proud of myself, which I've never had that before. I never, it's really nice.

phoebe intro: 5:58

wanna feel really proud of myself after every session I do because you're, no one knows. You never know when you get injured,

anna intro: 6:04

Yeah, exactly. You, yeah. You never really know. Yeah, yeah. so I feel, yeah, I've definitely been channeling that energy at the moment. But so Thursday I felt like I was walking around with a bit of a pep in my step until about 11:00 AM and then I crush and burn. but we did 10 minutes sort of threshold, then a minute rest, then eight minutes threshold, a minute rest than six minutes threshold. and yeah, it was good. And I managed to get a little bit, a little. Keyword little, a little bit faster at each one? Like as the, as the duration came down.

phoebe intro: 6:33

and how did you go sticking to the pace that was right for you?

anna intro: 6:38

It was actually fine. So the first two, everyone else was going a little bit slower and I felt completely fine. Yeah. And then the last six minutes, the others took off and I

phoebe intro: 6:50

just, you're like, it's all good. Yeah. Yeah. Good job. You're doing a good job at like. Sitting at that, like feeling out what pace is right. Yeah. And even on Tuesday, like

anna intro: 6:58

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm just, yeah, as soon as I think it's really strange, I'd actually be interested to hear from other people that have been pregnant before. But at a certain, at a threshold ish pace, I feel okay. I just cannot, for the life of me, like any, pushing it any faster than that is just so hard. So it's even like Even Yeah. in the, the session, the last bit where people kind of took off a little bit, I just can't, like, even if I, I know that you say like, oh, you've been really good at that, but like, I actually genuinely wouldn't be able to. Yeah. It's just I don't have the change of speed at all. Yeah. And we were doing three hundreds on Tuesday and I literally, we

phoebe intro: 7:36

they were quite intense. My

anna intro: 7:38

legs just don't spin around.

phoebe intro: 7:40

Yeah. Well that's fair enough. Better to just do threshold

anna intro: 7:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm enjoying that. Yeah. so yes, that was my best run. And then we got coffee after, which was so good. Delightful. Um, yeah. What was your best run?

phoebe intro: 7:53

Well, could not say The Cheeky Clinic community run

anna intro: 7:59

So nice. It was so nice.

phoebe intro: 8:02

We must have had, I don't know, I reckon less than 300, but more than two 50 people there. Yeah. On like 6:00 AM on our 6:30 AM on a

anna intro: 8:12

Friday morning

phoebe intro: 8:13

in Creon and like. but it was just the nicest atmosphere.

anna intro: 8:17

I,

phoebe intro: 8:17

So many nice people who made friends, so many nice people to chat with. Everyone was just running along so happily. It was so wholesome. yeah, I like finished that run feeling. And actually I would say shout out to running. general, I just feel like at the moment my runs, I'm having a very, a really busy time at work and quite a stressful time at work. and also at the moment, like this week, my boyfriend Sean's away. And I just feel like having running is like the only thing that is like keeping me afloat. Like, and not even afloat, but positive and excited and like, I can do this. Yeah, yeah. Like it's such, it's just. Friday I was heading off for like such an intense day at work and I had that morning I was just like, we're all good.

anna intro: 9:01

a pep in your step.

phoebe intro: 9:02

Yeah. And it just so

anna intro: 9:03

so empowering.

phoebe intro: 9:04

before we get into the main topic, we are going to do. Two things. We're gonna do pregnancy check-in with you, and we're going to do a live taste testing of our protein smoothies, dairy farmer protein smoothies. so this pregnancy check-in is going to be a regular segment on the pod from now until. You give birth and maybe post. Ah. And so I, I actually asked chat DBT for some good, um, segment names. Oh,

anna intro: 9:30

is this what you are giggling about? Before

phoebe intro: 9:33

Because I wanna read them

anna intro: 9:34

Phoebe was giggling and I was like, what are you laughing at? And she was like, I'm not telling

phoebe intro: 9:39

you are like immediately so suspicious.

anna intro: 9:41

Yeah, I know. I thought I'd

phoebe intro: 9:43

thought you'd put Yeah. And I was like, oh, did I put in the

anna intro: 9:47

put in the microphones again.

phoebe intro: 9:49

Uh. so I'm gonna read out a few to you and you tell me which one you like. Okay. first one, bump date.

anna intro: 9:58

Mm. Heard it

phoebe intro: 9:59

right outta 10.

anna intro: 10:00

I mean, I would say probably like a seven. I've just, it's not

phoebe intro: 10:03

high. The weekly waddle. I wanna

anna intro: 10:11

I love that. I actually 10 outta 10.

phoebe intro: 10:14

wanna tell BT she's not welling yet. inside Scoop, literally. Oh yeah, I know

anna intro: 10:21

that's kind of, that feels invasive. Okay.

phoebe intro: 10:23

Okay. growing pains and gains. No. Bit bland. future cheeky in progress. Oh, bit lame.

anna intro: 10:33

lame.

phoebe intro: 10:34

the bump report.

anna intro: 10:37

I don't mind that either. I'm too easy to please. I'm chat, GPTs, like perfect person because anything that anyone says, I'm like, amazing.

phoebe intro: 10:47

What about this Prego Progress? No,

anna intro: 10:51

that's a no. I think the weekly waddle.

phoebe intro: 10:53

Um, I think we're gonna go with the weekly

anna intro: 10:55

I think the weekly model's the winner shock.

phoebe intro: 10:57

um, to all of us. If anyone has a better idea for the name of this segment, let us know. But weekly wattle for your 25th week of pregnancy. and in this segment, we're gonna, the sixth week, well, oh, you'll be turning 26 weeks when this comes out. Sorry, my apologies.

anna intro: 11:15

I don't want anyone to think I haven't been experiencing this for seven days less than I have been

phoebe intro: 11:20

Um, give us an update as to what your life was like in your 26th week of pregnancy.

anna intro: 11:26

Okay. So it was amazing. No, it, had a wedding, which again was hard. I just feel like you are. It seems to be that your threshold for getting tired, particularly in my case, is so much lower than what it once was, which is. It is completely fine. I feel really, really lucky that that at the moment is the only thing that's kind of getting me down. Yeah. I do find it a little bit tricky though'cause I love doing things, so it's just a real adjustment because I try to do things and then I

phoebe intro: 12:00

remember that you

anna intro: 12:00

can't. Yeah. Or then, or I do them and then I'm just absolutely gasped for a few days and a bit emotional and can't stay awake. In a work conference,

phoebe intro: 12:10

for example.

anna intro: 12:11

for example.

phoebe intro: 12:13

Random hypothetical.

anna intro: 12:14

but yeah, I I did four runs and a swim. Actually I think I did five runs, sorry, and a swim and then had a day off.

phoebe intro: 12:22

off.

anna intro: 12:23

yeah, it was really good. I, as I said before, I was just sort of like, happy to get through the RU runs. but otherwise, yeah, after the wedding, I learnt from LA the week prior and I just really on Sunday.

phoebe intro: 12:36

just slept. Slept. Yeah. Yeah,

anna intro: 12:38

Literally, pretty

phoebe intro: 12:39

I know. So you weren't responding to my

anna intro: 12:41

This, yeah. Like I went to the, had a sleep in, went to the recovery, slept on the way home, came home, had a nap. Yeah. Went to bed early,

phoebe intro: 12:49

Yeah.

anna intro: 12:50

then had a sleep in on Monday morning.

phoebe intro: 12:52

Yeah. True.

anna intro: 12:53

but yeah, so it's just, I think now that I know that it will be easier going forward'cause I'll just plan. I'll just, yeah. I just need a

phoebe intro: 13:02

day. That's it. You also had, you had a scan and you had a pelvic floor physio appointment, so give us the update there.

anna intro: 13:11

for anyone that's playing along at home, they'll be proud to know that I did not move my scan forward. Yay. First time I'm actually getting one. Woohoo. So, yes, the first time I haven't brought a scan or an appointment forward,

phoebe intro: 13:26

huge. And how did

anna intro: 13:27

you feel? Yeah, I was a little bit nervous and I didn't sleep very well last night. Just,

phoebe intro: 13:32

the night before.

anna intro: 13:33

yeah, which I don't know. Your mind body's so strange. Like, I didn't think I felt that anxious, but then. As I just said, like I've been so tired. I sleep all the time. But then last night I was just so anxious, like I couldn't get to sleep. Mm. Well I couldn't, I think it's'cause I was anxious'cause I can't really put it down to anything else. but beforehand I was so relaxed'cause I can feel I was feeling a moving around. Yeah. It's just so reassuring, just having that kind of before you go in. Yeah. but yeah, it was fine. Like even before, normally I'm kind of straight on the bed my OB must know that I'm a little bit anxious, but we were kind of chatting, get

phoebe intro: 14:08

just like straight to

anna intro: 14:10

yeah. Straight block

phoebe intro: 14:11

power walk, go.

anna intro: 14:13

but yeah, we were having a little bit of a chat beforehand.

phoebe intro: 14:16

you go.

anna intro: 14:17

Yeah, I know. So easy breezy.

phoebe intro: 14:19

so chill. She's

anna intro: 14:20

And then yes, had another physio appointment with Laura from, since physio, um, which was really good. I've been doing my kegel, my pelvic floor exercises, so I think she was happy. Maybe,

phoebe intro: 14:32

don't know. Nice.

anna intro: 14:34

and yes. Feeling, feeling very positive.

phoebe intro: 14:37

Go you. Hmm. You're nearly six months.

anna intro: 14:40

I know.

phoebe intro: 14:41

As we were just discussing.

anna intro: 14:42

crazy.

phoebe intro: 14:43

That is wild.

anna intro: 14:44

Yeah. It kind of is really strange thinking that that's me. Yeah.

phoebe intro: 14:48

You're getting there, like you're getting into your third trimester. What

anna intro: 14:52

Ah,

phoebe intro: 14:54

we need to create a little jingle

anna intro: 14:55

all right, so before we get into it, shall we talk about the dairy farmers protein smoothies?

phoebe intro: 15:02

Yes, we absolutely shall so we are so excited that this episode has been sponsored by the wonderful team at Dairy Farmers. They actually are a really wonderful team as well.

anna intro: 15:13

Mm. It's so lovely.

phoebe intro: 15:15

and the newest flavor additions to the protein smoothie range, which as I said, we're going to, well, Anna is gonna taste test for you imminently, so I will go. And get the smoothie from the fridge

anna intro: 15:28

I'll run the audience through the sort of a few key components that we love about them. So they are already in the chocolate banana, honey and mixed berry flavors, which, we have tried before. We've actually done a reel about it. And absolutely love them. But I'm about to try the mango flavor, which is very exciting. It similar to the others, is high in protein. It's got 30 grams of protein per bottle to help us fuel post run, or in this case, post dinner and keep us full for longer. Uh, it contains. Prebiotics and essential vitamins and minerals with no added Sugar. And even better, it is perfect for the busy and active gal or guy, as it is convenient and on the go,

phoebe intro: 16:14

but does it taste good?

anna intro: 16:16

A little bit of as

phoebe intro: 16:17

So a little bit of a SMR for you all. I'm just gonna open up the lid, try and not smell milk on the,

anna intro: 16:25

on the microphone. Okay. What flavor have we got here? We've got mango, woo woo woo.

phoebe intro: 16:31

So I can't drink it because I can't have dairy, but I'm gonna smell it. And do a smell

anna intro: 16:36

like I do with gluten, literally.

phoebe intro: 16:38

literally. Hang on. The smells are really good. Good. Okay, so she's

anna intro: 16:43

I agree. All right. I am gonna have a taste.

phoebe intro: 16:46

raising it to her mouth. She's sipping. She's swallowing

anna intro: 16:49

Oh my god. Yum. Oh my gosh. That is

phoebe intro: 16:52

is it really good? Yeah.

anna intro: 16:53

It is so refreshing. I am already know that I'm gonna take this for my run tomorrow and have it post Run

phoebe intro: 17:01

Yum.

anna intro: 17:02

and everyone's gonna be jealous

phoebe intro: 17:04

farmers. Thank you so much for making this episode of Cheeky Possible.

anna intro: 17:09

Just one more sip. all right, so before we get into it, Alrighty.

phoebe intro: 17:14

So. I'm not faffing about. Let's get into our main topic for this week. In this episode. We are graced with the

anna intro: 17:21

present

phoebe intro: 17:23

he the presence of friend of the show, grace Tame. If you've listened to much to the pod before, you'll know that Grace is an extremely talented runner as well as the most insightful, funny, well-spoken guest. So we are so excited to have her back on the pod.

anna intro: 17:38

We've spoken with her a few times now, About why she runs, but this time is a little different because we are focusing more on the how Grace, along with an estimated of one in seven females and those assigned female at birth, has endometriosis. As we explore, endo has a huge impact on our ability to run, and the reverse can also be true. How we run can impact our endo symptoms and management. Okay,

phoebe intro: 18:01

we got her onto the pod to talk about her journey with Endo and what she's learned about how best to manage it. we wanted to flag up the top that there are some strong themes throughout the podcast, so please be mindful. As always, we absolutely loved having Grace on and hearing her insights and learnings, and we hope that you do too.

anna intro: 18:19

Nice. Nice.

interview: anna + phoebe: 18:20

And welcome to the show, grace. Hey,

interview: grace: 18:25

woo,

interview: anna + phoebe: 18:25

woo. So, alright, as always, you haven't been on for a few months, but we like to start the show with our best and worst runs or running related activities. So since we last saw you, can you give us your best running related activity

interview: grace: 18:40

Oh, my best running related activity is going back a few weeks because unfortunately I am injured. No.

interview: anna + phoebe: 18:48

no,

interview: grace: 18:48

So I haven't run

interview: anna + phoebe: 18:50

since.

interview: grace: 18:52

actually a week ago, I had a week, I, I've had a week off, a whole week off running

interview: anna + phoebe: 18:57

stuff. Brutal.

interview: grace: 18:58

I have torn my soleus, my right on my right side, and also developed some bone stress. As a result. So I am not, not running for the next five, five or six weeks now that I'm one week in. no, we'll see how I go. I've actually taken to it quite well after three days of, um, mental breakdowns and Yeah, endless

interview: anna + phoebe: 19:17

I was surprised when I asked you before, like, how are you coping? You're like, yeah, I'm pretty good. I was like, okay. Wow. She's a lot more resilient

interview: grace: 19:25

I'm leaning into my autistic ability to hyperfocus and just drop one thing and completely form a new identity in another.

interview: anna + phoebe: 19:33

Yeah. How have you been spending your time since not being able to run? What's your new fixation?

interview: grace: 19:37

It's Pilates. less so the elliptical. I have been doing a little bit of elliptical it sort of mimics the running movement or the motion. and I've been doing, I've been continuing to do regular weights training in

interview: anna + phoebe: 19:52

gym.

interview: grace: 19:53

for the last couple of years. I've been pretty dedicated to not only leg strength to support running, but doing all upper body stuff and broken into muscle groups. So I usually start the week with back and by on Monday chest and tries on Tuesday, shoulders on Wednesday, legs on a Thursday, and then I repeat that cycle. Oh

interview: anna + phoebe: 20:12

Oh God. Wow. That is cool. That's really cool.

interview: grace: 20:16

And it's been fascinating seeing

interview: anna + phoebe: 20:20

seeing

interview: grace: 20:21

the

interview: anna + phoebe: 20:21

Yeah. Yeah.

interview: grace: 20:22

I can start my, my back workout with three sets of 10 chin-ups. Body weight.

interview: anna + phoebe: 20:29

my god.

interview: grace: 20:30

Yeah. And I used to not be able to do one.

interview: anna + phoebe: 20:34

Yeah. Three sets of 10. That is crazy. I did see, I saw a video of you doing hanging.

interview: grace: 20:40

Yeah, that

interview: anna + phoebe: 20:41

for a

interview: grace: 20:41

I'd never done a dead hang In fact, that was when I was, this was going back a couple months ago when I was still running and I'd just run like 17 ks or something that. Like I, I would usually run to the gym and then do whatever workout and I'd just run to the gym. And the gym. well I guess you just, I was gonna say the gym receptionist, but that's not, are they, they just Yeah. Gym staff. that's the word I was looking for. Front house. Front of house. The mare d of the gym. What workout would you like to say? Um, she approached me and she said that there was this two week challenge or something going on, where everyone in the gym got, was able to compete, um, to see who could do. The longest dead hang. Mm-hmm. and whoever did the longest dead hang got two weeks free at the gym like, challenge accepted. I was yeah, challenge accepted. I dunno what a dead hang is. it's got the word dead in it. Um, hopefully it doesn't require a lot of movement. Um, and I was right. it just, just requires a lot of grip and forearm strength I think. And so, yeah, she just told me to grab hold of the things just hang there as long as

interview: anna + phoebe: 21:49

is it? When you were mentioning Dead Hangs, like what actually is a dead hang?

interview: grace: 21:53

So you just grab onto, just grab onto pull up bars? And hold on as long as you can with your body weight. Oh,

interview: anna + phoebe: 22:01

That's simple.

interview: grace: 22:02

Mm, yes. I thought it was too, I didn't actually think it was that impressive. She was looking at me like, you're still hanging like two in. And I hung for another 45 seconds on top of it.

interview: anna + phoebe: 22:13

It's so hard. Really? I don't think I can hang for like 10 seconds.

interview: grace: 22:16

Yeah. Right. See, I, I don't know, maybe I'll just have a,

interview: anna + phoebe: 22:19

well, you can do 30 chin ups. Yeah. So of course you can hang for two minutes and 45 seconds.

interview: grace: 22:24

Yeah. It was interesting though.'cause like, I didn't think it was that big a deal. I was like, all right, okay, whatever. She put my thing down, and then in the preceding weeks I was getting these like really buffer men coming up to me at the gym being like, are you the chick that did the dead?

interview: anna + phoebe: 22:34

really?

interview: grace: 22:35

And I like, yep.

interview: anna + phoebe: 22:37

Oh, that they're so great. Like do a back session with you. Yeah.

interview: grace: 22:41

was like, oh. And they're like, you must be so strong. I was like,

interview: anna + phoebe: 22:45

Okay. So you've, you've kept up gym, you've kept up your gym since getting injured.

interview: grace: 22:50

Yeah. I, I really like doing it. And, it's so different to running.

interview: anna + phoebe: 22:54

Mm.

interview: grace: 22:55

Mm-hmm. And I can see why when you are really deep into a training block for running and you get sort of fixated on that type of exercise and the, feeling that you get from it. Why it would be hard to do something that's almost opposite, like when you like speaking bi mechanically, it's different. physiologically it's different. You are, you know, you are doing, obviously you have like sessions and tempos and there's different types of running, but you are doing endurance and you're, and you are using lots of oxygen. Whereas when you're doing heavy weights, you might be doing really low reps and really heavy weights, but it's anaerobic.

interview: anna + phoebe: 23:33

Yeah, yeah. yeah. Even the feeling afterwards, you know, like after you run you're sort of, you're tired and then you kind of come good. Whereas Jim, I almost feel like it's a couple of hours later that you're like, oh, I am very sleepy. Yeah. Mm.

interview: grace: 23:50

Yeah. Yeah. And the doms are intense

interview: anna + phoebe: 23:53

Doms are real. Yeah.

interview: grace: 23:54

Yeah, the doms are really intense from. But that's'cause Yeah. You're, you're really putting a lot

interview: anna + phoebe: 23:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how have you found integrating Pilates into your routine?

interview: grace: 24:03

I really like it because that was one thing that I was missing out on. I would think I was doing a lot of, well, I know I was doing a lot of endurance and really upping my strength, but not doing enough mobility.

interview: anna + phoebe: 24:15

Yeah.

interview: grace: 24:15

Which is kind of the bridge between the two that I think you need to do because it, I think I was really stiff.

interview: anna + phoebe: 24:21

Yeah. Mm. Okay.

interview: grace: 24:23

and I in particular have the tightest hip and we won't get into endo just yet, but I part of the reason

interview: anna + phoebe: 24:30

Okay. before that, before your injury, you had a great run.

interview: grace: 24:34

Oh look, I had a few great runs. I was training to do a marathon on the 7th of December in Nan, which is just outside of Tokyo in Japan. It was set to be a PB course with 17 meters of elevation, not 17, 17, but yeah, 17. Flat as a pancake. So flat.

interview: anna + phoebe: 24:53

so flat.

interview: grace: 24:54

specifically arch,

interview: anna + phoebe: 24:55

economy.

interview: grace: 24:56

a Japanese pancake, but I dunno. enough of that. I was doing some really solid training and, and this is actually the only conventional training block I've ever done. I've actually, in the past, the training blocks that I've done have put me at a much greater risk of injury

interview: anna + phoebe: 25:17

than Currently.

interview: grace: 25:18

block. But there were other factors. There were other externalities that were playing into the, I think what ended up Getting stressed. too stressed. so my last big session was a three by 5K, along the Ong.

interview: anna + phoebe: 25:34

rabon,

interview: grace: 25:35

And I had the absolute privilege of running with Lisa Waitman four time Olympian, just casually. And she, she paced me for it.

interview: anna + phoebe: 25:43

so amazing.

interview: grace: 25:44

it was really special. Just to run with someone of that caliber who was so proficient at executing the exact pace I had said to her at the start of the session that I wanted to, run roughly between, like four minute Ks and. three 50 fives, for each of them and just trying to get a little bit faster on each rep between three minute jogs. Yeah.

interview: anna + phoebe: 26:11

Oh my

interview: grace: 26:11

It was one of the best, it was one of the, yeah. Most well executed sessions that I've done. I felt really strong doing it. And it gave me a lot of confidence. And then I went and just ruined it. I didn't recover from it. And that's I think it, it wasn't that session, but it was what I did in the preceding days that ruined it. Pushed you over. Yeah.

interview: anna + phoebe: 26:35

It's tough that'cause those great sessions as you're right, they do give you a lot of confidence and that can almost be the downfall in a sense.'cause you're like. Boom, I'm, I'm feeling really fit. I'm feeling really good. You try and carry that momentum rather than yeah. The last thing on your mind would've been taking a few days off to like, absorb the session.

interview: grace: 26:52

Yeah. And the trouble is the fitter you get and the more that you're able to do, the more you think you can do. And the more, the more you deceptively feel like you can do. Mm-hmm.

interview: anna + phoebe: 27:00

So you are very good at like, taking lessons away from running. Like what do you feel like is your lesson from, from that block?

interview: grace: 27:07

Well, I got up to 120 K week mileage, which is the highest mileage I've ever done, and I consistently did, three or four weeks at that mileage. And the previous weeks had been around 110. so I had, yeah, I had six to eight solid weeks of running over 110 k. And I've done that in the past. Previously I've probably maxed out at about a hundred, 110, and I don't get anything out of running 120 Ks a week. Me personally, that's also factoring in the cognitive, the cognitive load of my job, incredibly stressful and intense and at times traumatizing. I don't get anything out of 120 Ks a week that I don't already get out of running 90 to a hundred.

interview: anna + phoebe: 27:50

Yeah. I think the common thing with running is that you always also'cause you want to, but like more is more. Whereas particularly when you have, highly stressful job and then even others, they might have people that they have to like look after or that kind of thing. Like I feel like it's all well and good to be like, oh, I wanna run 120 Ks a week. But you to forego like other things if you're gonna do that. And to do that consistently without getting injured, I feel.

interview: grace: 28:16

Yeah.

interview: anna + phoebe: 28:17

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

interview: grace: 28:17

yeah.'cause on top of the subject matter that I'm constantly exposed to every day Mm.

interview: anna + phoebe: 28:22

Mm.

interview: grace: 28:23

I am frequently disturbing my routine Yeah. Traveling interstate.

interview: anna + phoebe: 28:28

Yeah.

interview: grace: 28:28

To deliver keynotes to meet with people and there's no real structure outside of running for That is my anchor point. sort of the thing that sets, the tone for the rest of the day. Mm-hmm. and yeah, everything else is sort of up in the air and nebulous and, that I think is hard because whilst I was consistent in my running save for those, you know, few days where I mm-hmm. Did way too much too soon and, and didn't recover, yeah. Everything is just. All over the place.

interview: anna + phoebe: 28:59

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you were having an incredible block up until, and that point included, as you say, you were running massive weeks, 120 Ks, but with so much quality in those weeks as well. Like you were doing really big sessions. I do feel like it should give you confidence that when you can pull a marathon block together, like there's an amazing

interview: grace: 29:20

Yeah. I'll never do what I did in those last two weeks.

interview: anna + phoebe: 29:24

yeah.

interview: grace: 29:25

do that. just because, yeah, as I said, it was an interesting test I had my own personal doubts, even though the advice that I had received to do those 120 K weeks was from Olympians and, very good runners

interview: anna + phoebe: 29:43

And

interview: grace: 29:44

had the times to prove the effectiveness that strategy. Again, I don't think that they had experienced, and I think that that was a lesson for me as well, is that I'm actually really good at hiding how much my job affects me. Mm-hmm. And it was interesting recently, I did actually publicly share how a recent series that I just did, how much it had, impacted me personally. And the feedback has been immense. I think a lot of people reached out, previously not knowing, I shouldn't say people didn't realize that talking about child abuse was hard. it's like they didn't realize, they hadn't considered that, that that's actually what I'm doing every single day. You know, I'm often seen at events and sort of like, you know, more frivolous or innocuous, engagements and I do hide a lot of what I'm doing because it is. You know, it's heavy. It's not, always Instagram friendly. if I'm getting into the real weeds of, the issue, it's, pretty hard to stomach. And so I think because of that, people don't have quite, enough information

interview: anna + phoebe: 30:51

They don't say the full picture.

interview: grace: 30:52

Yeah.

interview: anna + phoebe: 30:53

I feel like that in itself is hard enough. But like on top of that then you're also dealing with your own trauma as well as speaking it. Yeah. Like that.

interview: grace: 31:02

Yeah. I think personally, as far as my own trauma goes, whilst it's related to child abuse, it is child abuse trauma.

interview: anna + phoebe: 31:10

Yeah.

interview: grace: 31:11

I've cauterized a lot of the emotion. In relation to that, quite like, I know what happened. there's no parts of it that I need to of like, figure out, you

interview: anna + phoebe: 31:20

Yeah. Yeah.

interview: grace: 31:21

Certainly in the last 10 years, there's been like an accelerated and perhaps, unnaturally accelerated processing of that trauma of expedited the process, and has helped. It's more, the vicarious trauma of learning about the things that are, that are done that are similar to other people. cause I, I have a very high level of empathy and so I'm feeling that I'm talking to or about, other people's, you know, de-identified experiences, but

interview: anna + phoebe: 31:55

yeah. Yeah. Those experiences. Mm. Yeah. And I feel like with running as well, with that kind of load, it's not about how much you can nce about how much you can absorb and with everything going on in your, in your life, and as Anna said, without making drastic changes and cutting huge amounts of that out, you just aren't gonna be able to benefit, as you say, from running more than 90 a hundred Ks a week.'cause your body can't absorb that additional load and that additional

interview: grace: 32:18

Well, if you think about it, when you were saying that, I was thinking, well actually if you take running completely outta the equation, and look at the last five years of my life, there have been so many events that I haven't been able to absorb. have been so many things, like I, I was trying to explain this earlier without sounding at all ungrateful, because I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunities that I've had in the last five years and, the positive ways in which my life has changed. But on top of that, there've been all of these. yeah, as I say, very unnatural, unprecedented experiences including, you know, this sort of unrelenting multi-directional pressure, that is really unsustainable and it's such that every now and then, obviously, you know, there is, a moment of joy and there are these seemingly from the outside fun experiences, but they're intertwined with so many heavy days

interview: anna + phoebe: 33:12

Yeah.

interview: grace: 33:13

I can't absorb that as if it, think of it as think of it as a training session. My, I can't absorb that because there's just such a backlog of stimuli. That haven't filtered, filtered through my system yet.

interview: anna + phoebe: 33:28

yeah, yeah. That's such a good analogy actually. Mm-hmm. but yeah. tell us about your worst running related experience then over the last couple months

interview: grace: 33:38

Was when I got on the cross trainer and I went to listen to Cheeky Run Club, which I thought would at least get me through. You know,

interview: anna + phoebe: 33:47

like, my guys, come on, see

interview: grace: 33:49

duration of an episode, and you guys are taking a break.

interview: anna + phoebe: 33:52

on a break. It's so rude. So rude.

interview: grace: 33:55

so personally, it's like, you know, I'm injured, clearly.

interview: anna + phoebe: 33:59

like, screw you guys. fair enough, fair enough, fair enough. Okay, let's get into the meat of today's episode. We, um, we have a, we have spoken to you on the poll before about your running journey, but before, so before we dive into strategies with managing endo and running, we thought we'd like to hear about your endo journey. So maybe tell us a little bit about when you first maybe started experiencing pelvic pain or whatever your first symptoms were. Buckle

interview: grace: 34:26

Buckle up. I don't like giving trigger warnings personally because I think life is triggering and also, children can't leave abusive circumstances. So even though we have agency as adults to go, oh no, I wanna leave, I wanna listen to this, children don't have the same luxury. I'm always sort of, of the mind that actually listen to this, this is gonna be an uncomfortable conversation, but this is just my, I guess, version of a, of a warning. Like now I, I will be, going into some hard stuff. I have experienced pelvic pain, for a very long time. I actually have permanent nerve and tissue damage to my vagina because of, being assaulted repeatedly while my body was still developing as a child. so there are a lot of endo symptoms, that are kind of confounded by. the symptoms from, rape trauma. Yeah. and I had for a long time just dismissed pelvic pain as being caused by that.

interview: anna + phoebe: 35:25

Mm.

interview: grace: 35:26

and as well as many women do, we are kind of given or told or just there's this assumption that we need to take birth control. And so I remember actually when I was 14, I spent six weeks in hospital, for anorexia treatment. And I hadn't menstruated. And I remember one day like, so they give you your food every day that you're supposed to eat. And one day on my tray, this little pill turned up and I was 14 years old. And I didn't think to question whether or not I should take it. I just took it like I took everything else that I was instructed to consume. And so I went through different, phases, I suppose of different, hormonal medications. I can't even remember what they all are. I think I just was doing what I was told. and I think that also probably masked, some of the symptoms. you know, I'd only had a handful of periods before I was then being like repeatedly assaulted and often during my period as well. so then I kind of came to associate periods anyway as just being really negative. Um, and when I turned 18 and moved overseas. I thought it was best to get a pretty strong hormonal contraceptive, something like the implant on. because I didn't want to risk pregnancy as an 18-year-old in a foreign country. So I got an implant on when I was 18, and that actually stopped my period. So I didn't have any bleeding or any symptoms of. Yeah. But also at that time in my life as a freshly traumatized person, I was engaging in a lot of risk taking behaviors. I had periods where I was doing a lot of drugs and drinking a lot of alcohol and eating really poorly. So there were moments where I was definitely like in pain, but again, you couldn't necessarily pinpoint source of that pain. and like many survivors of childhood sexual abuse, I found myself in, More violent, unstable situations that kind of mimicked that trauma because it was familiar to me. So again, I was just kind of like layering the trauma. Um, and just, I guess it became so normalized feeling just subpar. and we're all then on top of that as women taught that you know, period pain is a thing when actually no amount of pain on your period is normal. You have period pain. and if you do, you should get it checked out.

interview: anna + phoebe: 38:11

Mm. Yeah.

interview: grace: 38:12

but what really drove me to, not a sort of rock bottom in terms of, health symptoms, but what, pushed me to the point of pursuing actually like an actual diagnosis that had nothing to do with my childhood trauma, although there's probably an overlap, in terms of, the body. Keeping score as they say. and internalizing at that cellular level. a lot of stress, you know,'cause endometriosis is a disease and is caused by stress. there is probably a, a causal relationship or at least a link. but what what led me to, realize that there was probably something else going on was that I just got so unbelievably sick. So, 2019 I had a very bad relapse of anorexia. cause it was in the middle of this, campaign that I participated in to change a law in Tasmania. And that was related to, victim silencing. And so it was related to my own trauma. So it had two years where. I didn't menstruate because I got really thin. And so again, it's odd because whilst, on the one hand I was obviously so unwell, it was some of the, in terms of in the last 15 years, those were some of the best months of my life in terms of symptoms. Like I didn't have really bad pain. In many ways I felt the best I'd ever felt whilst I was so unwell. Um, and then in 2021, a month after being named Australian of the Year, I got my period right before I was supposed to deliver a National Press club speech about child abuse and grooming. and that was hectic because again, I have a very negative association with my period, but also. I had a lot of people telling me that this was a good thing. And yes, in, in many ways it is because it meant that my body was, functioning well enough to support that, to support menstruation. And at this point I did not know that I had endometriosis. I don't even know if I knew what endometriosis was at this juncture. Yeah. So I had all of these people around me telling me that it was really good, and yet I knew something was wrong immediately. Then when I got my first period, because it was so excruciatingly painful, I also, I've been pretty lucky in my life. I've naturally got pretty good skin and all of a sudden I just, it was like I had hives and I was inflamed and just. I like, I just felt so atrocious. And then I also felt atrocious when I was ovulating. And then I was, I was basically, feeling like the window of time that we have in our cycle where we feel okay was just diminishing, was getting the time between the pain was getting shorter and shorter. and yeah, I just sort of suffered through that for the next couple of years. The years between then and about 24, 25 were a bit of a, a blur. Yeah. cause I had periods of time where, I didn't track my cycle. I was never very good at that. I was never very, um, because I had such a negative relationship with it, I sort of like, I almost pretended, I don't know if there's anyone else who, has been through what I've been through where we just sort of just pretended it doesn't happen. Um, you, you cop the pain, but you just like, pretend you don't have a period until it just pops up and then you just deal with it and then

interview: anna + phoebe: 41:47

Yeah. Yeah.

interview: grace: 41:48

had a sort of, detached, dissociative relationship with it during that, that, that time in my life. But then when I got it back in, in, in 2021 and I wasn't on any birth control, and again, I think that was part of why my experience was, was so awful. I just sort of copped it. those years of 2021 and 2022 were already really stressful. So again, it could have been lots of different things that were causing the inflammation and the feeling of fatigue and the just general malaise that I was experiencing. And I did, I put it down to, oh, well I've been put in this crazy situation, where I'm being constantly scrutinized by media. I'm asked to reharvest my trauma every day. I'm speaking to large audiences. I'm traveling all around the country constantly. Clearly that's what's making me sick. And stressed. Yeah. And I got to the end of 2022 though, and I essentially had a mental breakdown. I. had been using running throughout, you know, from, from about 2019 to 2021. I had a couple years where running was a really big part of my life, and then I fractured my pelvis in May of 2021. had 12 weeks off, got back into it towards the, you know, sort of last quarter of 2021, then fractured my foot by December 2021. Took up cycling, had a good month of cycling, 300 Ks a week, and then fell off my bike and broke my shoulder.

interview: anna + phoebe: 43:25

oh my gosh.

interview: grace: 43:25

So then I couldn't do anything. I couldn't run, I couldn't swim, I couldn't cycle. strangely the orthopedic surgeon asked me if I was a shot putter,

interview: anna + phoebe: 43:35

which by what gave in that

interview: grace: 43:37

I almost outta despite wanted to take it up. but yeah, I couldn't do

interview: anna + phoebe: 43:41

you are good at Dead hangs? Yeah,

interview: grace: 43:43

All sort of ability to do any kind of movement was put on hold I went back on a medication to try and help manage the symptoms of PTSD because I was constantly being sort of like, it was being activated constantly. I then had to write a book about my experience of, of childhood trauma. and yeah, again, it was just like there was so many multi-directional streams of stress, the, you couldn't discern between them. and I got to the end of 2022. I'd released the book, I'd done this book tour, and I just fell into a heap and I decided that I needed to get out of the country. I didn't wanna be anywhere near the Australian media. and I went to New York of all places I'd lived in America, in, in my late teens and early twenties. So I went to, I went to America to visit some friends and just to get outta the Australian context. And in doing that in New York winter, I was eating all this pasta and bread and thinking, you know, this is great. You am loving all of this. And I did actually start running again in that period. And it lasted about a week before I then contract contracted. I think it was RSV. And I know you've had And I was coughing up blood. I was so sick. Got over that went from New York to Florida. Over New Year's and Christmas to visit some friends there. And I contracted what I thought was a really bad bout of food poisoning, and I was so sick. I was bedridden for like three days. stayed there for a little bit longer until I essentially got better. Then went to visit some other friends in Colorado. and I got another bout of what I thought was food poisoning. And this was even worse. I was now projectile vomiting. Then I went from Colorado to California and that was gonna be my last stop. And yeah, within like five days after having the last bout of food poisoning. and then, yeah, got another bout of food poisoning in California that lasted five days and I was so sick that My friend Josue, who was taking care of me, was trying to take me to the er'cause I'd just lost so much fluid. I'd a bunch of weight. I was like really looking like I was near death's door. Couldn't keep anything down. But of course, when you are, experiencing gastro symptoms, the things you're recommended to eat are toast.

interview: anna + phoebe: 45:56

bread. Yeah.

interview: grace: 45:57

So I was eating all this toast

interview: anna + phoebe: 45:59

Wow.

interview: grace: 45:59

and bland pasta, and just not recovering. I finally got home towards the end of January and I was a total space cadet. I'd gone from being able to write a 90,000 word book in the space of three months to not being able to write one sentence in an email. I had that severe level of brain fog and I was just completely depleted. and I remember having a conversation with my cousin Morgan, who has endometriosis. she had it quite badly. but she was describing her experience and I was sort of, I was taken aback because so many of the symptoms that she was describing were symptoms that I also experienced and had been experiencing for probably 15 years, And I thought, all right, well, I'm gonna go and pursue, a diagnosis. But it was a long-winded process because the symptoms that I described to the GP led him to pursuing diagnoses for conditions that men also get. First.

interview: anna + phoebe: 47:02

Oh.

interview: grace: 47:03

so

interview: anna + phoebe: 47:03

such as

interview: grace: 47:04

IBS Celiac, um, Crohn's disease. We could have been buddies and so that was the pathway at first. So I had a few months there of essentially continuing to do the same thing, poisoning myself, having more of these awful flares. not knowing what they were, just thinking that I was getting gastro all of the time. Vomiting a lot. yeah. And like, it was really depleting, and then I finally went and saw a, gp, I think I have endometriosis. I think I need to go and see a gynecologist. And he was like, oh, you know, that's not my sort of area of expertise and fair enough. Um, you know, he was honest and he was, he was actually really good. I just think. It's not a reflection of him personally, I think as a reflection of the medical fraternity that it's not, it, it's not prioritized enough that it even registers when, when people are describing symptomology. Yeah.

interview: anna + phoebe: 47:55

Yeah.

interview: grace: 47:56

But he sent me to a really excellent specialist, Dr. Kirsten Conn, who, operates out of a women's health clinic in Hobart. And I came away from that pretty confident, even though though there'd been no sort of test done to prove, because I think she listed something like 28 symptoms and I ticked every single one. Then yeah, it was in about the middle of 2023 that I went and got an internal ultrasound, which was. One of the most, traumatizing experiences since days of being a child. They obviously put a probe inside you, to screen for endometriomas, which they found. But I, I, again, this showed not just in my own personal experience of internalization, but I think it spoke to what we're prepared to put up with as women. That I was in so much pain and I was crying and I was just trying to hide it. And I didn't wanna make the sonographer uncomfortable, so I kept apologizing to her even though she was like clearly hurting me, not on purpose.

interview: anna + phoebe: 49:03

Yeah.

interview: grace: 49:04

And she ended up discontinuing the procedure'cause she was like, ethically, I can't do this. I know your experience, the experience that you had. I can't continue to torture you this way. And I just remember going into, they took me into a separate room so that I could just decompress,

interview: anna + phoebe: 49:20

mm.

interview: grace: 49:20

And I just remember thinking, how did I cope with this as a child? How did I think that this was normal? Yeah, yeah. How did I put up with this for all that, all that time? Yeah. And yeah, it made me realize like how, how tough we are,

interview: anna + phoebe: 49:36

Mm.

interview: grace: 49:37

how tough we are as women. Yeah. You know?'cause that was, that was a lot. But yeah, I, and then I also came away with it, with this diagnosis. And then I, I sat on it for a while. Um, I, I wasn't sure how I felt about having surgery, because.

interview: anna + phoebe: 49:55

I,

interview: grace: 49:55

I know a number of women who have endometriosis. We should point out that endometriosis affects one in seven women. And for those of you who don't know what it is, it is a chronic inflammatory condition where tissue similar to the lining of your uterus, grows outside of it. Endometriosis is projected to be reclassified as a type of benign cancer because despite the fact that it is not directly fatal in every other respect, it behaves exactly like a cancer.

interview: anna + phoebe: 50:25

Wow. Yeah. Right.

interview: grace: 50:26

Which is again, hugely validating because it is, this really debilitating thing you're kind of constantly living with. Yeah. And whilst you can remove it and the surgery can prove to be a huge relief for a period of time, I know people who've had like eight surgeries and can now no longer get any more surgeries because once they cut the disease out, they essentially replace it with another form of inflammation in the form of, surgical scar tissue. Oh.

interview: anna + phoebe: 50:48

Yeah. Oh.

interview: grace: 50:50

So. I was a bit nervous about having the surgery, but then I thought, well, that is actually the only way to diagnose the extent of it. So whilst late stage endometriosis can appear on scans like an internal ultrasound and an MRI, there may be more of it that isn't picked up.

interview: anna + phoebe: 51:06

Yeah.

interview: grace: 51:07

But I did eventually get surgery just over a year ago. It was at the end of May, 2024. And hard to say whether or not it is improved

interview: anna + phoebe: 51:24

really since then.

interview: grace: 51:26

Mm-hmm.

interview: anna + phoebe: 51:27

what ways do you think it has improved and

interview: grace: 51:31

ways

interview: anna + phoebe: 51:32

do

interview: grace: 51:32

it hasn't Well, again, there are a lot of confounders. So when I learned that I had endometriosis, I did decide to go back on birth control because I was told

interview: anna + phoebe: 51:45

that

interview: grace: 51:46

it really helps. So endometriosis is, encouraged by estrogen

interview: anna + phoebe: 51:53

Yeah. Oh.

interview: grace: 51:53

and often if you are estrogen dominant, that can worsen your symptoms. But also the cycle itself and the instability that's inherent in cycle,'cause even. at an individual level, a person's cycle is never 28 days. It's between like 21 and 31 or something that. Let alone, you know, the masses, there's so variation. So it's that, inconsistency as well. That was just making it really hard to function'cause I would have, whole days where I was essentially bedbound and unable to predict it even though I was trying to track. I did have a, a period of time where I was trying to track my cycles cycle and symptoms and it was just all over the place and, and so hard to discern what was what. So I went back on birth control. I had a really awful experience at first, um, as I was saying off air before I got the implant on in because I thought, oh well, an implant on I've had before, so my body may be familiar with that systemic hormone. Got the implant on in, had an eight week long period, I bled every day for eight weeks

interview: anna + phoebe: 52:53

you had symptoms

interview: grace: 52:55

Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, bleeding for eight weeks straight will give symptoms to anyone. I think, um, you know, just like, just hemorrhaging literally, so much iron and just feeling really fatigued and, lightheaded and, spaced out. Very foggy. But then I heard that, sometimes it is necessary for two different hormonal treatments to be used at once. So both, the implant on, which is a progesterone based treatment, and the pill that I take slender is a progesterone, um, pill. And

interview: anna + phoebe: 53:28

Double whammy.

interview: grace: 53:29

Double whammy of progesterone. And that has helped a lot. Okay.

interview: anna + phoebe: 53:33

Okay. So, and you started doing that at a similar time to when you got your surgery

interview: grace: 53:39

I, I was doing that before you

interview: anna + phoebe: 53:41

Yeah. Oh, okay. That's why

interview: grace: 53:42

Okay. That's, so that's why it's hard to say because that did help a lot. And then I had surgery and then also too, one of the reasons in the end why I pushed, I didn't have surgery until a year after, essentially finding out that I had at least some endometrioma, was because I was really getting back into my running and I I don't wanna take,

interview: anna + phoebe: 54:01

I remember because we went for some runs with you before your surgery. Mm-hmm. And I remember talking to you about it. Yeah. Because you were like, you, you've had to take a few weeks off after the surgery where you wouldn't be able to like, do anything

interview: grace: 54:13

Yeah. You can't do anything technically, you're not even like able to lift anything that's over five kilos for quite a while.'cause they cut through all the walls of your abdominals muscles and Yeah. Cutting, cutting things out.

interview: anna + phoebe: 54:27

There's a little damage. Well, I wanna talk more about, obviously we wanna talk more about endo and running, but before we do, I wanted to know, like, you've spoken a bit about the pain, but maybe for people who haven't had, or, haven't had it or experienced people who have, what does it feel like? Like where is the pain and what does it feel like?

interview: grace: 54:46

That's another, it's another reason why it's, can be so hard to diagnose, and to manage because. The level of pain and the type of pain is not, does not necessarily correlate to the severity of endometriosis. So endometriosis is considered in stages, so sort of stage one, that's where you have some growth. And then stage two where it, is like more deeper penetrating. And then stage three, which is sort of, uh, worse again. And then stage four, that is where it can actually infiltrate your organs, to the point where people might need a bowel resection, for example, because it's actually cut through, it's, it's grown into the bowel, not just outside of it. And you can have late stage endometriosis, you can have stage four endometriosis and have very little pain then you can have stage one endometriosis and have a lot of pain. Um, and again, as people,'cause people experience pain differently. I think another thing that was pointed out to me as well by my gp, when we finally realized that I had to endometriosis. He said people who are autistic experience pain very differently, and can often have a really high pain threshold. Um, and just, yeah, just have different receptors. And I thought that was quite interesting.'cause, I've been in situations, as I said, you know, in, in my sort of early twenties, late teens, where I was doing a lot of dangerous things with people who, had, you know, were also traumatized people. And I was sort of surprised by the fact that I was still going, um, because I was putting myself lot of

interview: anna + phoebe: 56:16

shit. Yeah.

interview: grace: 56:18

And so, yeah, I think again, a lot of, there are a lot of things that I probably did and, and, things that I was exposed to that had desensitized me in so many different

interview: anna + phoebe: 56:28

ways. Mm.

interview: grace: 56:28

Mm-hmm. But the pain is usually for me, I usually start to notice that I'm uncomfortable when I get the, classic sort of stereotypical endo belly, which is when you're just so bloated and distended and everything feels hard. So it's not like a soft bloat. It's like a hard

interview: anna + phoebe: 56:46

Yeah.

interview: grace: 56:46

Bloat. And you do look, you suddenly go from, essentially looking like, you know, whatever your typical, body looks like to then looking like you're, you know, a few months pregnant.

interview: anna + phoebe: 56:57

Mm. Wow.

interview: grace: 56:58

And that's when I start to feel really uncomfortable and then I kind of tune in and realize actually I've been dissociating from how I've been feeling. I feel, I think you said something Anna, on a recent episode, like about how you were so so disconnected from your body like I, I realized that as well. I was like, oh, I've actually become so disconnected from my body'cause I just don't wanna tune into these signals that I'm feeling probably because they remind me of a time that I don't wanna be reminded of and I just go. I'm, I'm outta here.

interview: anna + phoebe: 57:24

Yeah. It's

interview: grace: 57:24

and I, and that's probably helped me with some of, especially some of the long runs where we get deep into the pain cave. Like people are like, how do you put up with it? And I'm like, just Just dissociate.

interview: anna + phoebe: 57:35

You can just not listen,

interview: grace: 57:36

Just dissociate. I've been, taken to the er by, by my mom for just putting up with so much pain until essentially I can't, and then I start vomiting because I'm in so much pain.

interview: anna + phoebe: 57:48

Oh my God.

interview: grace: 57:48

interestingly. That was when I'd got the first implant on that I had in, when I was about 20, yeah. When I got it removed when I was 21.

interview: anna + phoebe: 57:57

Mm. Oh

interview: grace: 57:58

So I went from having no periods to then having periods again and they were incredibly painful and just just sort of stabbing pain, really concentrated in the lower back and the abdomen. but sometimes it'll manifest in, in like headaches as well.'cause you're just like, your whole body is just aching. And I sometimes get this weird thing, I think it's nerve damage, where I feel like there's water running inside of my head, like down my brain. It's like this, apparently that's nerve damage. I've described these symptoms before to someone and they're like, oh, that's nerve damage. So I don't know.

interview: anna + phoebe: 58:31

Wow. And so I

interview: grace: 58:32

that's anything to do with Endo, but

interview: anna + phoebe: 58:34

yeah, yeah. So I, I mean, we wanted to ask a reasonably generalist question about what's the relationship between end on running, but even hearing you talk about it, like, it seems like there of like how does anyone run? Who has ever?

interview: grace: 58:50

Well, the, like anything, it's not a static relationship it's dependent on so many different, often intersecting factors. So what has really helped me, in general and I think has enabled me to run high-ish mileage. Uh, is taking care of a lot of other things. For example, one of the big things that you're told, sort of when you get the diagnosis of endometriosis about what you can do to help management is to reduce your inflammation. And so I've removed as many inflammatory triggers from my life as possible. Alcohol being one of them. Don't drink alcohol. I rarely drink coffee. I just drink Marra. I usually have one Marra in the morning, and then I stick to drinking peppermint tea throughout the day. Peppermint tea and water and electrolytes. I eat a very clean diet. I donate any processed food. and yeah, tend to avoid sauces and spices and things that have been prepared by like in restaurants that. I do go out occasionally, but I try to keep it really clean, really minimal, it sounds really basic. I do like to get creative with my cooking, but Yeah, I pay a pretty high price if I go to Rogue. Yeah. So just sort of like single source, single ingredient foods, meat. I do eat meat.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:00:08

And then, so how does Running impact Endo and Endo impact what we sort of have heard? It's pretty obvious how Endo can impact running would just being so debilitating Yeah. That you like can't run. But how do you think the, running impacts endo?

interview: grace: 1:00:24

Well, there's, I mean, obviously like we all know this, there's different types of running, there's jogging, there's sprinting, jogging I think is really good for endometriosis because like any movement like that, like endurance, training, you are getting all of your energy systems to work more efficiently. you know, your cardiovascular system is working more efficiently. It's pumping more nutrient rich blood all your vital organs. you also are emotionally regulating, so you get better handling emotional stress, So I think that's, that's really good. light jogging I think is really good for endometriosis. Mm.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:01:01

When you're experiencing a flare up, do you still feel like jogging is beneficial?

interview: grace: 1:01:06

Yeah, there've been times where like, I rarely miss a workout because of endometriosis, even if I'm, but I'm not recommending anything that I do as necessarily the way to approach life. in fact, I would probably have a warning label on my life. don't try this at home.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:01:24

Caution.

interview: grace: 1:01:25

Um, yeah, but I think that light jogging is really, really good. Even long runs you get to that level of fitness. and you're able to sort of sustain a lower heart rate and not put your body under a lot of stress and not inflame yourself. Yeah. I think that, like, I think that's really good. Um, I mean, and again, that's in my personal experience, it does get harder when you try to push yourself. You try to push your speed because you are essentially, I listened to the Real Science of Sport podcast. I love it. Oh yeah, yeah. Um, Professor Ross Tucker, who often describes like, if you push your limits too far as like taking out a loan from the bank and essentially you're gonna pay that back some way. And I do find that if I, get too hot.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:02:12

I can't.

interview: grace: 1:02:13

I can't. Cool down. That's a, that's most, organisms experience that where if you can't, if you're heating up and you and that heat can't escape, then things start to fail. but that, I certainly find that I heat up quite quickly if I push my heart, heart rate high and I'm essentially inviting that inflammation and because at a baseline I have a chronic inflammatory condition, I'm just sort of asking for

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:02:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:02:38

that can become harder to manage. And I certainly, I don't know what it's like to not have endometriosis and, be a runner.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:02:45

yeah, yeah.

interview: grace: 1:02:47

dunno what my speed, I dunno what my speed would be like if I didn't have endometriosis, but I do think that's why I've made the choice to run longer distances, because I'm going slightly slower. and I can sustain that. Whereas I'm, I've never been, like, my 5K time is really not that much faster than my 10 k time, which is really not that much faster. Sorry, I should say my 5K

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:03:15

pace, Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:03:16

yeah. I can, I can run KI can run a 10 K in 20 minutes. Um, yeah, my 5K pace is not that much different to my 10 K pace is not that much different, et cetera. And in fact, I know, a lot of my running friends who are really quick over, they're shorter distances. you know, they should have a, like a, a much quicker time than I do over the longer Mm-hmm. But they don't, so I'm like, I'm, first of all, I'm, I think endometriosis helps in that. you shouldn't get used to pain and shouldn't, it shouldn't be something to brag about that like, oh, I'm just like a tough cookie. I can, I can handle it, but it's like. No, I, I've got the proof that I actually can do hard things and that I can put up with hard things for a long time. Um, But then also, yeah, I can like, I can sustain that if I just don't go to that ceiling.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:04:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

interview: grace: 1:04:06

so I've found my sort of sweet spot with, with like ultra running.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:04:11

yeah, yeah. Versus the shorter sprint. Yeah, that

interview: grace: 1:04:14

it's I hurt more doing a 10 K than I do doing 60 Ks, and I'm still at 60 Ks. I'm still running like 4 60 Ks.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:04:25

Wow. That

interview: grace: 1:04:27

know? And yet for a 10 KI might be running three 50 fives. Yeah. And can run that for a half as well, but that's, you know, it's like I can't run that much faster. Faster.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:04:37

Yeah, yeah, What does it, because I remember you saying you did a half marathon a little while ago, and I remember you saying you had a flare up. Like what does it feel like trying to run with a flare up?

interview: grace: 1:04:48

oh, it, it just feels like you're being stabbed. it just feels tight and awful. And this is, this is actually a really interesting intersection point, so endo and carb loading.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:04:59

Ah, yeah.

interview: grace: 1:05:00

to actually, properly execute a carb load without essentially inviting a flare, that's what you're doing. You're putting more easily digestible sugars into your system sugar is a massive inflammatory trigger. Yeah. Yeah. And I haven't quite found that balance yet. I think it does work more effectively if the sources of carbs are less processed. Things like white rice. I can eat oats. Yeah. I go for the wheat free ones. and bananas.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:05:36

Mm, yeah.

interview: grace: 1:05:37

Dates. Although obviously you gotta, it's, it's hard because the less processed they are often the more fiber they have. So you put it like, a balancing act. but, and it's, but it's even little things. So this particular race, the night before, I usually would just bring my own like packet of rice and plain chicken and I that. And this sort of just, it's really boring, but it's safe.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:06:00

Yeah. Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:06:01

Um, and the gels that I take, I just take Morton, cause I was taking spring for a while, but they're really high in fructose.'cause they use a, they use a lot of fruit

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:06:09

fruit. Yeah. Fruit

interview: grace: 1:06:11

is not great. Like a lot of not great for anyone, but it's particularly for Endo, because it's almost, it has overlaps with like a fodmap. Yeah.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:06:19

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Situation. Like very acidic sort of. And yeah.

interview: grace: 1:06:24

So this particular race, the night before. I was with a friend and we had traveled from Sydney to Java Bay, beautiful part of the world, to do this half marathon, and she just wanted to eat, pasta out at a restaurant. And usually I just, I wouldn't do that. Usually I would put my foot down. Um,'cause I got to a point where I realized, um, I was having a lot of flares because I was being, this sounds odd. Too flexible or too, too much of a pushover and too, too susceptible to peer pressure when really, you know, like, like in the, in the way that people. Make you feel bad about not drinking.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:07:08

Mm. People

interview: grace: 1:07:08

often make you feel bad about not eating certain foods. And, and I got kind of sick of explaining to people, I've got endometriosis. I know what's gonna happen if I eat this food, it's gonna make me really sick. I'm gonna be, I might enjoy it for five minutes and I'll love the taste. I love eating ice cream. Ice cream does not love me. Yeah, yeah. You know, and it'll be like five days awful. and because of where the endo, this is my theory by the way. I'm not, medical expert, but, a lot of the endometriosis in that they found in me was around my bowel. And so the surgical scar tissue is now around my bowel. So I feel like my bowel is particularly sensitive. Yeah. So, and again, why probably the GP initially put, set me down a path of pursuing

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:07:56

Yeah. while you were having gastro symptoms. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So,

interview: grace: 1:08:01

so yeah, I was too, I was too relaxed. That's, that's better, that's trying to

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:08:04

trying to be easy

interview: grace: 1:08:05

I'm trying to be, yeah, I'm trying to be easy going, but then also, I gotta remember, I'm not easy going if I've gotta be three meters from a toilet.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:08:11

Yeah. I'm

interview: grace: 1:08:12

No, that's not easy going. That's actually not worth it.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:08:15

It shows where Endo is in the collective psyche.'cause I feel like I was thinking about with Celiac. Mm. No one is ever gonna pressure you to,

interview: grace: 1:08:23

Yeah, I was actually thinking that before. I was thinking about how you've got Celiac and no one's. Taunting you with wheat?

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:08:31

No. being,

interview: grace: 1:08:32

no one's like, eat the cake, Anna. Like,

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:08:36

I'm like, imagine

interview: grace: 1:08:38

have the wheat bit

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:08:39

I have, have a disease. do you feel like you'll get, since that experience of having that pasta, having a flare up, do you feel like, are you more trying to be a little bit more controlled with those things?

interview: grace: 1:08:53

Yeah, and, and controlled within reason, because I also have, a history of disordered eating where any kind of restriction is a slippery slope that can lead to essentially exponential restriction. But I think in this case that is no longer, the driver of, disordered eating episodes that I've experienced in the past, and they've been pretty bad, like, you know, to be hospitalized for six weeks at a time and, and to be fed through a tube. But, you know, it's pretty bad. Like I've, that's it's confronting.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:09:20

Mm-hmm.

interview: grace: 1:09:21

but that was driven by unresolved trauma, you know, from, from childhood and, and, and, and that again, it's if you treat the cause and not just the symptom, I think

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:09:29

yeah. That's

interview: grace: 1:09:30

um, that, that's the answer, across the board in lots of different contexts. But, um, you know, for, for me now. It actually is about enabling myself to participate fully or as, as fully as I can with respect to having a disease in life.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:09:49

Yeah. you mentioned before that you, rarely miss a run because of endo. And like I know not everyone is the same, but is there any sort of strategies that you have that, others who are badly endo could maybe try, that you've gotta run the next morning and then the night before, as you said, you sort of, get that tummy kind of feeling that bloat. Like is there any strategies that you have

interview: grace: 1:10:15

Herbal remedies? Herbal

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:10:16

remedies? Ic. Turmeric. Turmeric. Okay. Turmeric,

interview: grace: 1:10:19

the cume, curcumin. So the concentrated in turmeric that is said to, well, it, I have experience, I take it every day as

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:10:26

Mm. That's a really orange one, isn't yeah,

interview: grace: 1:10:29

Yeah. I take it every day. Also take ash, ashwagandha, drink, peppermint tea on tap drink. Um, ginger and lemon. tea on tap. Yeah. I also take creatine every day.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:10:41

Yeah. Yeah. And what about, the ashwagandha I think that you mentioned, what's that?

interview: grace: 1:10:47

It helps with anxiety. It's like a

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:10:49

um,

interview: grace: 1:10:50

remedy for, yeah. Anxiety, mood,

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:10:52

Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:10:53

inflammation as

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:10:54

Yeah. So, ah, inflammation seems to be, yeah,

interview: grace: 1:10:58

inflammation is the devil.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:11:00

Mm. Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:11:02

when I shouldn't say that because scientifically speaking, you do kind of need a certain level of running to make sure that you are triggering all the repair responses

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:11:12

Yeah. And even like as simple as down to like, when you get a cut, you need the inflammatory response Yes. Yeah. So don't go too hard on the ashwagandha.

interview: grace: 1:11:19

as

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:11:21

You'll be way too relaxed.

interview: grace: 1:11:23

I, it's

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:11:24

She can't inflame.

interview: grace: 1:11:27

There's different kind, there's different kinds of inflammation. it's caused by different things, obviously. I think inflammation caused by a diet, heavily made up of, processed food.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:11:37

Mm. Is, yeah. Okay. So the strategy is less so kind of like a. Knee jerk reaction to, it's just baseline, kind of really conscious of

interview: grace: 1:11:49

I I would say it's the, the simple but consistent commitment to really quite basic management

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:11:59

Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:11:59

Yeah. Like drinking lots of water. Like insisting on getting a really good sleep. I don't compromise on sleep, unless I absolutely have to. I usually get up to 10 hours a night. I get between eight and 10 any less than that, and I really feel it. I really feel the pain in my abdominals, lower back. yeah, so drinking water, getting really good sleep, avoiding alcohol. And I, as much as I love coffee, the acidity of it, I definitely feel it if that's one thing where I do, you know,'cause it can be hard sometimes. You can't find mucha, even though I'm, I make my MAA at home usually take a tin of it with me when I travel so I can make one on the road, but if for whatever reason I can't access mucha and I want a little bit of coffee, I'll have that. But I do notice it.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:12:47

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

interview: grace: 1:12:49

So it is, it's little, it's little changes that have really big impact on your overall

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:12:54

Yeah. Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:12:55

and by the same token, if you do little things wrong, you'll also notice that they have a big impact.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:13:01

unforgiving.

interview: grace: 1:13:02

It is, it can be really unforgiving, but that's why I'm also now uncompromising. Like last night I went to an event for work and I sat there while everyone was eating a three course meal that was very lavish with a tub of pumpkin soup. And I did not give a fuck.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:13:18

Yeah, yeah.

interview: grace: 1:13:19

going home and flare. I'm going home to bed and everyone was drinking wine around me and I was like, I'm good. I bought my electrolytes. And they're what are you

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:13:28

Yeah,

interview: grace: 1:13:28

I was like, I'm good. Like

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:13:31

What, but you spoken a little bit about how stress can also cause inflammation. How do you go trying to manage your stress, especially as you've said with your workload, and the substance of your workload. Does that then impact flare ups as well?

interview: grace: 1:13:43

Oh, definitely. Definitely. If I don't get proportionate rest, if I do too many back to back, speeches, you know, sometimes I've done more than one in a day, or at least I've done like a speech and then an event or something like that. Um,'cause they're really taxing, it's like a very acute

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:14:01

Oh yeah.

interview: grace: 1:14:01

Oh yeah. A very emotional mental load. Such high load. Yeah. Yeah. So. I, it definitely, definitely does, impact my stress, but I think the way to, approach it is because there's some things that are out of my control. Like, unfortunately, that is how I make my money. I do have to do it. I can't just

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:14:17

go,

interview: grace: 1:14:18

I'm not gonna, you know, and'cause I don't have a steady income stream, not working a nine to five, I'm going sort of here there, occasionally I might write an article, you know, occasionally I'll do a speech, I have to sort of make ends meet.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:14:31

Yeah, yeah.

interview: grace: 1:14:32

that way. But I give myself, so to speak, a lot of grace in terms of if I need to just sit and do nothing, that's okay.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:14:46

Mm-hmm.

interview: grace: 1:14:47

You know, in past epochs of my life, I think I was probably, too harsh on myself placed too high an expectation of how much I was supposed to, how productive I was supposed to be in a day. And I I think that's also a very, capitalistic phenomenon of feeling or being made to feel guilty if we are not occupied.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:15:09

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:15:11

Whereas the best, juiciest, richest life is often experienced when you're doing very little. And are actually able to absorb the training, so to speak. Yeah. You're, you're allowed to absorb your environment. We've, we've gradually over time, and we talked about this last time on the podcast, sort of like come further and further away from a, a natural And running is one of the things that I think does bring, does bridge that

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:15:40

Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:15:41

people a bit back to sort of that more pure state. But think about how frenetic everything is, you know, social media and constantly getting, you know, getting calls and things that take you, take you out of the moment. and often it's not like we're looking to be, or sometimes we are, we're looking to distract ourselves. And we live in a very sort of instantly gratified culture.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:16:02

Mm-hmm.

interview: grace: 1:16:03

And that's the sort of the nature of the system that we're operating in, the high speed devices that we're constantly sort of forced to engage with. Everything's all like spread out all over the place. And I think that that is also. That causes sort of like inflammation

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:16:17

general. Yeah, yeah. But

interview: grace: 1:16:20

disrupted, it, it, it's, it's inherently dysregulating, like, how can you regulate when, every 10, five minutes or, or it's not even scheduled, you know, every many minutes, something something's happening, something something's buzzing at you, something's beeping, gotta go drive over here, but then someone's emailing you about this, like, it's so fragmented, fractious.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:16:42

down. Yeah. Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:16:44

yeah, I try to just go, I write and this, I don't necessarily, again, recommend that you do this, especially if you've got other people who are overseeing your diary. But I often like put days in my calendar that just say fuck off

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:16:57

it's alright.

interview: grace: 1:16:58

and they're just blocked out. and so, so my, my manager or the c like whoever's looking at my diary trying to put something, they're like, oh. All right. And I don't feel bad about that.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:17:11

I love that. So you obviously have listened to a number of our podcast episodes before. How, is there ever anything we're saying as people who love running but are reasonably ignorant of the experiences of people with Endo that we could better frame or be cognizant of or anything like that? So that for I'm sure many of our listeners who are listening who have experienced that they feel a little bit more seen and heard.

interview: grace: 1:17:35

I think the fact that you've asked the question is in of itself, more than, you can expect you typically, from forums when it comes to endometriosis. In my personal experience, I've found that even women. Uh, uncomfortable discussing it if they don't have any personal experience

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:17:55

of it.

interview: grace: 1:17:56

and that's, not uncommon when we think about, things that are new in the zeitgeist. I don't mean that endometriosis itself is new, but it's

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:18:05

presence

interview: grace: 1:18:06

as a topic of discussion, I would say is relatively new. anything in its infancy tends to be quite ugly and draws negative reactions as people are familiarizing themselves with it. it's similar to child sexual abuse. We're talking about two really prevalent issues, one

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:18:29

One

interview: grace: 1:18:29

in seven, which is the same statistic as heart disease. Which affects everyone. So one in seven people, will die of heart disease. It's the leading killer in Australia. Child sexual abuse affects one in four. So one in four Australians will be sexually abused before they turn 18. That's probably underestimated or under reported, because of things like stigma and shame, and generally unsupportive social environments, and deterrent, systems, you know, that, that, that, that often work as well. They're stacked against, survivors like the legal system, like media, et cetera. so yeah, when we're talking about something like endometriosis, I think it just comes down to, including it in the conversation. if you're talking about running though, there's so many different caveats,

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:19:16

in like,

interview: grace: 1:19:17

How do you go with carb loading when you're celiac and so many carbs are out there, but you are limited as well. And celiac is, it's not just like a gluten intolerance or like, oh, I don't wanna have a new wheat or whatever. you would experience some pretty hectic symptoms having accidentally ingested

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:19:36

mm Yeah. And you're

interview: grace: 1:19:37

Gluten before.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:19:38

Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:19:39

so it's, it's just remembering that, everyone has a very individual experience and it's very hard to generalize, but if you are, if you're generalizing but also mentioning that. There's, so, it's like so much room. There's sort of a whole spectrum of experience in relation to any particular I think if you're just keeping that in mind, and I think that's, It is hard. Like I did think when I was listening to, the episode where you spoke about your experience trying to get pregnant, and you mentioned menstruation as being sort of a marker of health. did have a kind of an alarm bell ring in my head because I remember when I got my period back after not menstruating for two years, and whilst it was a marker of one kind of health, it was, it was not necessarily a marker of and it's not that the period was causing endometriosis, it was that it was exacerbated by the endometriosis. Um, and so I think that one of the messages that I would make sure is very clearly. spread is that there is no safe amount of pain for a period. Mm-hmm.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:20:49

Yeah. Um,

interview: grace: 1:20:51

and all the things that we've been taught about just managing your cramps that stuff, I think it's worth pursuing more information and considering whether you have other symptoms that aren't necessarily tolerable, and that we shouldn't be tolerating so much in that context.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:21:15

And, and so how, aside from individuals themselves seeking, medical advice and whatnot, when there is pain, how do you think we can reduce the, average time it takes for a diagnosis seven years.

interview: grace: 1:21:31

Seven to 10 years.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:21:31

Yeah. Yeah. How can that number, how can we reduce that number, do you think?

interview: grace: 1:21:37

I think it's, it starts with conversation and awareness. I think that, there, they're just generally speaking isn't enough information about endometriosis. Mm-hmm. I know that I've had conversations recently where I've felt like. I think that we can have our blinkers on, if we are saturated in a particular world, whether that's, you know, running or, related to the field of work that, that we're doing. It becomes second nature to us and we can assume everyone else's knowledge assume that they know as much about a particular thing as we do. And sometimes I find myself being startled when I, I mentioned that I have endometriosis and the person's like, oh, what is endometriosis? then having to explain it and then seeing the sort of shock on their face. Um, and then in particular hearing, seeing the shock when they realize how common it is. and that despite it being so prevalent, there's so little information that's publicly available Out there.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:22:32

Well, I mean, even the fact that, unless you're sort of what it sounded like end stage, like you can't actually pick it up and, on any sort of scans or unless there's like internal investigation that in itself seems absolutely wild that there's something so common that. Like a lot of people to actually be diagnosed with, they actually need to have an operation for,

interview: grace: 1:22:58

It reflects the sexism and misogyny embedded in the medical fraternity. I mean, if we look at, a lot of the research up, up until, know, very recently was all centered around sort of male models of, uh, you know, like even the crash dummies in cars are all based on the sort of your average, your average middle aged white man. You know, not even, not even just a general man, a specifically a white man. And the same with, you know, testing lots of drugs. And I mean, it was one of the reasons why they avoided testing, or trialing hormonal contraceptives for men because it, it was gonna be too, there was gonna be too much volatility. It was like, uh,

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:23:38

Uh,

interview: grace: 1:23:39

excuse me.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:23:41

They couldn't possibly. Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:23:42

people who are assigned female at birth, you know, because of the menstrual cycle that we experience it's seems to be a prohibitive factor

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:23:50

research. Mm. Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:23:52

Well, why don't you design your research models better

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:23:55

Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:23:55

to then factor that in population?

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:23:57

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and so many amazing, valuable lessons and strategies. And I just, I know that so many listeners out there who have had similar experiences will be feeling very, heard and, and I think someone to us, like just inspired by you. I mean, every time you come on, I'm so like, so in awe of you just as a runner, but also how you like. How resilient you are dealing with something like this. Like hearing you talk through, you're like, so excited to talk through your strategies. Here's what I do, here's how I manage it, here's where I'm at now. And to see how you're able to like, you know, create this life that works for you. Yeah, it's amazing.

interview: grace: 1:24:37

And, and I, I hope that, you know, more broadly, I feel like, especially in the work that I do and I see a lot of survivors and whilst you can't dismiss something like child abuse and you can't dismiss something like endometriosis and how debilitating it is, I also think that there needs to be, and I'm a realist, I think there needs to be hope. and we need be reminded that we don't necessarily have to give in to this defeatism, um. And like I have turned my life around, you know, like I, think sometimes people do just see they've, they've been introduced to me publicly at a certain point in my life where everything seems like it's ticky boo. But you gotta remember that I went from, you know, sleeping in a kitchen where my bedroom door was a Japanese divider and working like for$12 an hour and doing a lot of drugs and finding myself in very dangerous situations. I went from like a really unhealthy and very unsafe and unstable lifestyle with a lot of pain and a lot of anguish, to now being able to run marathons and ultra marathons, train consistently when I'm not injured, the

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:25:46

the longest day dead hang in your gym,

interview: grace: 1:25:48

train consistently. And it's been because of little gradual changes in the cumulative impact of those over time and the commitment to myself. And the belief that that's not just belief.'cause I think belief can exist without evidence, but creating, knowledge that you, you have, that you are able to, to, to do things. and remembering that one little slip up as well is not that whole picture. that's why it's also worth doing those little things.'cause over time they add up, you know, even if it's just logging the days of sobriety as a little like, you know, reminder to yourself like that you, you can actually do it and it's just one more day. Or, you know, just making sure you have, some healthy habits

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:26:31

Mm.

interview: grace: 1:26:32

and they don't have be that hard. It, you know, drinking water, sleeping, drinking peppermint tea, you know? I take peppermint tea with me in my handbag everywhere.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:26:44

I literally, it was funny that you were talking about that before.'cause normally I have take a snap lock bag. And we've come to Sydney and we'll have to go to the shop. We'll

interview: grace: 1:26:53

have to come to my house.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:26:54

Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:26:55

I've got the

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:26:55

Yeah. But no, it's a, it's a really good reminder.'cause you're right, it is easy to look at everything, you know, and be like, wow, it's so much. But you're right. It's just a series of little changes every day, little new habits that have led you to be where you are.

interview: grace: 1:27:07

Yeah. And there's a lot of trial and error. and I think a lot of it is age too. You know, when we get older and we realize, you know, going out every weekend, two nights a week doesn't produce a good outcome, and the hangovers don't get easier. They get harder, and things like that where, where you just sort of learn naturally, and then the hard way, I think for some of us, that it does that, that it's actually no fun and that's not, it's not worth it to do that. so yeah, it's a combination of sort of just learning through, through living. but also, yeah, making that commitment to yourself, deciding that you are worth it, not giving into peer pressure because you're worried about pleasing someone else, making someone else feel okay. Like, how do you feel?

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:27:44

Mm.

interview: grace: 1:27:44

How do you feel? Do is your health not worth more than somebody else's opinion?

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:27:51

Mm. Yeah. It's crazy when you put it like that. that's everything for today. I mean, hopefully next time we'll get you back on the pod. You'll be, your cough gonna be better. Yeah.

interview: grace: 1:28:02

I'm doing great Ocean Road again.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:04

Shit. Yeah. You hate Great Ocean Road.

interview: grace: 1:28:07

but I had this amnesia Like I just forget all of the shit after a couple

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:12

Third time lucky.

interview: grace: 1:28:13

I reckon. Third time lucky. I wanna try and break the record. It pretty ambitious.'cause I think I would have to run like four eighteens or something.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:19

4, 4 60. Cool. I reckon you can do

interview: grace: 1:28:21

it. I reckon I can, I reckon. I reckon I can. My

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:24

You pace yourself. Actually,

interview: grace: 1:28:26

my problem is, is that I do go out too hard with that race.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:29

Yes, you

interview: grace: 1:28:29

And I will have a

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:30

could pace you for the good self 20.

interview: grace: 1:28:33

Oh my God.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:33

Yeah. And

interview: grace: 1:28:34

do the marathon.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:35

you

interview: grace: 1:28:36

the marathon,

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:37

Anna, because no, it's not until May when Anna Anna

interview: grace: 1:28:42

Anna do not

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:45

Yeah. As Pete said, thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for being so vulnerable. We very much appreciate it and are in awe of everything that you do. Hey,

interview: grace: 1:28:54

that I do in recent

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:28:55

years, in recent

anna intro: 1:28:58

Gosh, I love chatting to Grace. I know.

phoebe intro: 1:29:01

I know. I feel like when we interviewed her, when we were in Sydney and after she left, we just looked at each other and were like, she is the most articulate human. Um, so I feel very, very lucky that she, is happy to come on

anna intro: 1:29:13

yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much.

phoebe intro: 1:29:16

so much. Thank you Grace. You're the best.

anna intro: 1:29:18

alright, that is all we got time for today. We hope you enjoyed today's show and we can't wait to be in your ears next week. Bye bye.

phoebe intro: 1:29:25

Bye bye.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:29:40

Ready?

interview: grace: 1:29:41

I'm disappointed that I don't get live rendition of the introduction. I

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:29:46

I mean, if you want, most people hate it. You're like, tell it to me.

interview: grace: 1:29:52

Ire. I reckon I could probably do it.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:29:53

Yeah, yeah. Come on. You try.

interview: grace: 1:29:55

I know.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:29:56

It's on the show today. Introduce yourself.

interview: grace: 1:30:01

Cheeky Run Club recognizes that ever.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:30:05

That's good. Every day we live,

interview: grace: 1:30:07

work and run on Aboriginal land. She's got it.

interview: anna + phoebe: 1:30:10

got it.

interview: grace: 1:30:12

Wait,