Why are women so good at ultras?

Happy Mother’s Day Cheeky Mums!

 In today’s episode, we chat about the INCREDIBLE result from the Cocodona 250-mile race, which saw Rachel Entrekin come first overall AND set the overall record! #upthegirls

 We are still loving all your AITA running scenarios too! We weigh in on road running, ghosting running invitations, and distancing yourself from friends with unhealthy running habits.

To finish off, Anna recaps all your excellent tips on running while breastfeeding and how she’s used some of them over the last week.

Send us an email! We’d love to hear any questions, thoughts, or ‘Am I the Asshole’ scenarios – cheekyrunclub@gmail.com

Follow us wherever you get your podcasts + Instagram, TikTok, Substack, Phoebe's Strava + Anna's Strava, and join our Strava community 🩵

 Music produced by Hugh Raper & logo design by Michael Cotellessa. Podcast edited by Kiara Martin.

Transcript

anna audio 0:00

Cheeky Run Club recognizes that every day we live, work, and run on Aboriginal land.

phoebe audio 0:06

Welcome Welcome to Cheeky Run Club, the social running podcast and community for your everyday amateur runner. Hello, Anna.

anna audio 0:15

Hello, Phoebe.

phoebe audio 0:16

And hello listeners and Flossie.

anna audio 0:21

Today we are going to answer the question of why are women so bloody good at ultramarathon running after a woman in the US won a 250-mile race outright, and also broke the record while she was doing it. Then we're going to review some more running MITheAssholes, and finish off with my very own rehab diaries. First, let's kick it off as always with our notable runs of the week or running related activities. Phoebe, give me your... Well, you're in San Fran. Hello, San Fran gal. Give me your, give me your best run or running related activity over there.

phoebe audio 0:57

Yeah, hello from San Francisco. Um, very exciting. You know what? This is a crazy best run 'cause I did have some really cool runs on the weekend, like I ra- I ran over the Golden Gate Bridge and so on. But my

anna audio 1:10

It's gonna be the treadmill.

phoebe audio 1:12

it's been the treadmill. Can you actually believe that?

anna audio 1:15

God. No, I

phoebe audio 1:17

So I know. I think it's the best run because my ex- it so far exceeded my expectations of it. whereas I probably had high expectations of the Golden Gate Bridge, which in reality it was cool but, um, someone told me this, and I should have... Our friend Estelle, she told me, she's like, "It's, it's kind of like running over the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Like, once you're on it, it's kinda like, okay, you're just running, like, by a busy road kind of thing." and it was, like,

anna audio 1:43

I remember I ran over it a couple of years ago, and I-- It's so hilly to get up to. I was like cooked by the time I got up there. And then running over, all I could hear was the cars, and I thought, "I should be enjoying this more than I am."

phoebe audio 1:55

Yeah. I remember y- 'cause that was, soon after we started Cheeky. I think we might've even been in, like, season one when, um, you did

anna audio 2:03

Yeah, we were. Hmm.

phoebe audio 2:08

This week I have obviously been in San Francisco, as I said, and I've been- Here for work, and they've been quite, early starts in the morning. And so it's been dark when I've been running. and just 'cause I'm running by myself, and I don't know the city that well, and it's dark, I haven't yet had the courage to venture out. so fortunately, there is a g- gym at the hotel with a treadmill in it, and I thought, I guess, fine, if I have to do it, I'll run on the treadmill. but it's actually been so good. Like, I- it's set up so it has a f- like, not, doesn't have a view, but it's looking out a window just, like, over the intersection. And you do see a, there's a lot that goes on. So you kind of are just, like, distracted constantly by, like, watching people go about their day or whatever. Go about the- their morning, watching everything wake up.

anna audio 2:58

It looks sick. You're literally on the street. you're

phoebe audio 3:01

yeah,

anna audio 3:01

watching. Oh. It's such a good setup.

phoebe audio 3:03

it's a really good setup, and I've realized that makes a big difference in treadmill land. Um, not just, like, staring at a wall. and I've just f- I did a session on the treadmill. That was really fun 'cause you can, like, control the pace so closely. It's also like

anna audio 3:20

Wow.

phoebe audio 3:20

I thought, I was about to be like, yeah.

vid both 3:23

It's

phoebe audio 3:24

It's

anna audio 3:24

Oh my God, I didn't know you could do that on a treadmill.

phoebe audio 3:27

other thing that, that it's in, the pace is in miles per hour, which I cannot translate in my head. And my watch on a treadmill thinks I'm going way faster than I reckon I am. So I'm like, oh yeah, like, probably just five-minute K's even though, like, I'm, like, very gentle jogging, which for me at the moment is a bit slow. There's five-minute K's. and it's also kind of soft and bouncy.

anna audio 3:52

Mm. I feel like, uh, also the feedback, because it's obviously

phoebe audio 3:56

moving, yeah.

anna audio 3:58

like, yeah, I actually really

phoebe audio 3:59

True. That is true. It... I guess that helps you probably 'cause it moves you. Like, helps your foot move

anna audio 4:06

I think so.

phoebe audio 4:07

Mm, okay.

anna audio 4:09

I feel like that's why people, it's good for, like, your speed if you're, not that w- well, like I'm not, I feel like I'm not, like, super fast, but I feel like running on a treadmill would be good because it kind of just, like, forces you to just, like, increase your, like s- yeah, your, like, cadence.

phoebe audio 4:22

Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm, I'm, like, an absolute convert. I've really enjoyed it. but I don't wanna talk about it for too long 'cause I am so excited to hear about your best run of the week.

anna audio 4:31

Mine is a run, walk.

phoebe audio 4:33

know. Yay. Run walk. Jog walk. Yay. first run in how long?

anna audio 4:40

Um, oh, I did the Port Fairy 5K at

phoebe audio 4:47

35 weeks maybe.

vid both 4:49

37 weeks

anna audio 4:50

pregnant.

phoebe audio 4:51

Oh, was it? Wow.

anna audio 4:54

just a

phoebe audio 4:55

Okay, So n- so not that long.

vid both 4:56

So it's

anna audio 4:57

long.

vid both 4:57

not that long.

anna audio 4:58

but, first run not pregnant,

phoebe audio 5:01

Mm.

anna audio 5:02

God, it feels good.

phoebe audio 5:04

Yeah, how was it? Talk us

anna audio 5:05

I don't, yeah, you don't realize, like, how kind of, like- Bleh, you feel running while pregnant until you're no longer pregnant, and you go

phoebe audio 5:13

Wow. "Oh,

anna audio 5:14

this is kind of nice." yeah, so we were away in the Yarra Valley, for the weekend last weekend and went to the Warburton Rail Trail. Dave had Floss in the carrier and was walking, and then we had Ted as well. And Ted and I just sort of like were doing laps up and down, out and back kind of thing. And the Warburton Rail Trail, it's like Lilydale to Warburton. If anyone lives around there or even in Melbourne, 'cause we have been out there for a long run before, it is so nice. Like so, so beautiful, and you're really just not that far away from the city. but oh, it was so fun. It was like... It was so invigorating. I, I was on cloud nine and was in the best mood for the rest of the day.

phoebe audio 5:57

Really? Still are.

anna audio 6:00

Still, I'm still on a high.

phoebe audio 6:02

what did you do for the run? Like, what was your walk-run sitch?

anna audio 6:06

Um, I did some, uh, 30 seconds, like on, off, and then a couple of two minutes, and then back to 30 seconds.

phoebe audio 6:20

Okay, nice. And you felt fine? Like, how did your body feel?

anna audio 6:24

just felt a little bit, I kind of felt like a bit of a baby giraffe, but I felt completely fine.

phoebe audio 6:28

Wow, that is so good.

anna audio 6:30

Yeah. It was really, really cool. I just unfit, but like that's, I can, I can deal with that.

phoebe audio 6:35

That's kind of, like, exciting 'cause it's, like, that's where you are and it's

anna audio 6:40

Yeah, I know. Yeah, exactly. So it was really good. I have like already been looking up on the calendar. I'm like, "Hmm, what fun run could I do?"

phoebe audio 6:52

Oh my God. Well, that was, that was your goal, right? The start of the year,

anna audio 6:57

Yeah. Yep.

vid both 6:58

something

phoebe audio 6:59

get a fun run in before the end of the year. So maybe we can, we can chat about it in the rehab diaries, but, um, yeah, like, it must be exciting for you to be like, cool first 'Cause you did, did you do a few ru- you did a few walk-runs.

anna audio 7:13

Yeah, done a few. We'll hear about another one

phoebe audio 7:16

Oh,

anna audio 7:16

my...

phoebe audio 7:17

Okay. Oh, no.

vid both 7:20

no. Um,

anna audio 7:21

anyway, what is your worst run or running-related activity

phoebe audio 7:24

my worst running related is my sleep this week, which has been really bad because, I, I mean, I haven't been, like, giving myself enough time, for one. Like, I, I think most nights I've been going to bed after midnight, and up... I don't think I've got my jet lag, I don't think I ever got my jet lag sorted, so I just like, I'm waking up at, like, 4:35, like, wide awake. And then even the hours between, like, whatever it is, midnight or 1:00 and 4:00 or 5:00, I'm like, I think 'cause I'm not giving myself, I have no downtime during the day, and I have no, like, relaxing time before. Like, I'm literally eating dinner and going to bed at, like, midnight or whatever. And it means that my sleep quality has been so bad, and I- I'm not g- getting deep sleep, I think, 'cause my... And I feel like all night I'm just, like, thinking about work. Like, things are just, like, flying around in my head. And then during the day,

anna audio 8:24

high.

phoebe audio 8:25

the cortisol is absolutely peaking right now. In a, like... But I literally say that with a smile on my face 'cause, like, funny, like, having high cortisol can feel really good. Like, I feel like, yeah, I feel like

anna audio 8:40

It feels so

phoebe audio 8:41

it

anna audio 8:41

It's when it comes down that it

phoebe audio 8:43

It's, I'm, that is exactly, I am dreading the weekend, like, but when I finally, like, slow down from all this, 'cause I feel like all day I've been like, I've had so much energy 'cause it's just, adrenaline, meetings, like, all these a- activities and things that we're doing. So I haven't even felt, I actually haven't felt tired, which is kind of scary to me. I'm like, "What is, what is coming on the, on the other side of this?" you know, um, those people who, like, go on, this is a weird, a really weird analogy, who go on, like, a drug rampage. like a, um,

vid both 9:16

A

anna audio 9:16

A

phoebe audio 9:16

I don't know. Wait, wait. Yes. A bender. I'm, I'm on, like, a work bender, and I'm, like, scared. Like sc-

anna audio 9:26

of bender.

vid both 9:27

Yeah.

anna audio 9:29

scared for the come down?

phoebe audio 9:31

scared, I'm scared for the comedown on the other side. Anyway, um, that's, that's my worst running related. God, I'm such a loser. Um, some people go on party benders. I've just been on a career bender.

anna audio 9:51

Well, some would... A, a lot more productive

phoebe audio 9:53

having the best time. Yeah, that is true. That's true. But anyway, I reckon next week I'll be, I'll be, um, maybe talking about the fallout. But tell me about your worst run or running-related activity.

anna audio 10:07

mine was also a run. I was very... I just wanna put it out, I was very grateful to still go for a run. But yesterday, Thursday in Melbourne, it, the weather was absolutely putrid. It was freezing and windy and raining. And like, I have a small window in the very, like, wee hours of the morning where I can do exercise before, like, Dave goes to work kinda thing. Um, and so it's kind of either, like- Now or never, in a sense. And I, I dressed I didn't dress correctly for... I didn't

phoebe audio 10:42

Oh, no.

vid both 10:42

weather

anna audio 10:43

kind of

phoebe audio 10:43

Wait, so how cold was it?

anna audio 10:46

Well, when I got back, it was like seven degrees, feels like three, and I

phoebe audio 10:51

Oh, my gosh.

anna audio 10:53

and I...

phoebe audio 10:54

you did a walk run.

vid both 10:56

so dumb.

anna audio 10:57

And then also because I was walk-running, you don't actually warm up that much. So I was out, it was like 6:00 AM, it's like pitch black. It's so windy, so rainy, absolutely

phoebe audio 11:11

Oh, my God,

anna audio 11:12

and I am, like, walking in shorts and a little, like, little shorts and a T-shirt. My hands

phoebe audio 11:20

Oh.

anna audio 11:21

sore. Um, and so I thought, I'm like, only, like, you've got to be pretty desperate to

phoebe audio 11:28

I was gonna say, I bet you still didn't, I bet you still didn't skip a rep.

anna audio 11:33

Oh, shit no.

phoebe audio 11:35

take more than that.

anna audio 11:36

yeah, exactly. Um, but I was thinking, I'm like, "I reckon I'm, like, the only person out right now. Everyone else is probably, like, snoozing or on the treadmill." And I also there were a couple of cars that, like, went by me as I was walking, and I was thinking, "They must look at me and be like, 'Girl, what the bloody hell are you doing?'"

phoebe audio 11:57

They're like, Can you feel how

anna audio 11:59

are you bananas?

phoebe audio 12:00

Yeah.

anna audio 12:01

Um, it was

phoebe audio 12:02

only... Yeah, the only other people out would've been, like, other young mothers who are taking their, short window.

anna audio 12:09

yeah. anyway, that was my worst, but still, still fun. Would rather, still prefer to be out there than not.

phoebe audio 12:18

well, yeah, this is the first week in ages, I think, that you've had your best and worst running-related activities have both been runs.

anna audio 12:26

I know. Crazy.

phoebe audio 12:27

That is so exciting, and I'm excited for many more best and worst runs in the weeks to come.

anna audio 12:34

Me too. Me too. All right. Shall we get into our first topic of the week, which we really we need to thank listener Lucy for alerting us to this. Essentially, we're gonna be talking about, why women are so good at ultramarathon running and endurance sports in general. So do you want to fill us in a little bit on what Lucy informed us of and what has made us, decide that we need to chat about this?

phoebe audio 13:03

Yeah. I feel like we should say, like, we love receiving messages from listeners, like alerting us to things that are going on in the running world or, like, topics you'd like us to discuss. So encourage people to continue to share because, yeah, so often that then informs what we talk about in the podcast. So Lucy sent us a message alerting us that the Cocodona 250 mile trail race, which we'll talk to you a little bit more about in a moment, she said, "It's on and I wanna tell you about it because a woman is winning overall right now. Um, she's 190 miles in. Her name's Rachel Entrickin. Um, she's amazing." And basically sent us this really impassioned message about how incredible this is for, like, women's ultra running and, one of the things that she said which I absolutely loved and I wanted to call out is she said, "For quite a long way of the race, three of the top five overall were women. Watching them having to refer to men as second in the men's race, fourth overall, is so bloody awesome." Um,

vid both 14:04

often

anna audio 14:04

not often that you hear that.

phoebe audio 14:06

not, not often that you hear that and, yeah, we, we completely agree. So we, of course, started following along to kind of see how Rachel went and, as this is happening, we sort of started talking about this phenomenon where women can seem to outperform men in kind of the longer the distance goes. And we thought this was, like, a super interesting one to kind of unpack, on the pod. So let's start with Rachel and this race. Can you tell us a little bit about the race itself?

anna audio 14:36

Yeah, so I'd actually never heard of this race before. it's, as you said, it's called the Cocodona 250. So it's 253 miles, which is 407 Ks, point to point through central Arizona, Black Canyon City to Flagstaff in America. there's a 125-hour cutoff, so runners have just over five days to finish, which is kind of s- wild 'cause it makes you realize that multi-day format means, like, there's, like, nutrition, sleep deprivation, and, resilience matter m- I would say more than your actual fitness. I mean, sleep deprivation is a form of torture. the fact that you're exerting yourself doing a race and then also not sleeping is absolutely bonkers to me. anyway, so normally, The race is like really, really hot, because you're like running across the desert and everything. But, it's sort of really, really hot during the day, and then really cold overnight. Um, this year it was pretty cool the whole time. it actually started raining and hit the runners after 30 hours on their feet. one of the... I actually saw one of the like river crossings, I think is normally met with people like being quite relieved to go across, because it's like they get to cool down a little bit and everything. But this year, I think it like kind of sent people over the edge. They were already cold, and then they kind of had to like cross through this like icy water. Um, and there's all these pictures of like, they're like, I don't know, they're just, their legs and feet looked so sore. anyway, but it's also, it's not flat terrain,

phoebe audio 16:15

No.

vid both 16:15

is it?

phoebe audio 16:16

It's not flat. Well, yeah, like you said, I mean, the train itself, the river crossings, there's like granite boulder fields that they're literally clambering over. There's sand through the desert. There's like kind of classic like track through a forest. There's pavement through towns, and as you said, there is crazy elevation. So it has, pretty much 39,000 feet of elevation, which is almost 12,000 meters. and that means across the race, they climb the equivalent, this is crazy, of ascending Everest basically twice, plus another few thousand meters, which is just like completely insane. And obviously it's like it's not at elevation like Everest is, but like just to like conceptualize how much of this race is just like completely like up and down, like crazy steep.

anna audio 17:08

actually, it's

phoebe audio 17:10

it is wild. can you tell us a little bit about Rachael?

anna audio 17:14

yeah. So Rachel Entrichen, um, she's the first woman to ever win Cocodona 250 outright. She, uh, won in a time of 56 hours, 9 minutes and 48 seconds, setting a new overall course record, breaking the previous record, which was held by a man, by more than two hours, which is absolutely wild. Rachel's a 34-year-old nurse, and she's also been a three-time Cocodona women's champion. I felt, I thought was like absolutely amazing. So across the 56-hour race, she slept for approximately 19 minutes. She said she slept five minutes, then seven minutes, then seven minutes. Her g- "My goal was to only have dirt naps."

phoebe audio 17:56

It's... Like, that... Like, what?

anna audio 17:59

what?

phoebe audio 18:00

is crazy. No wonder she- I saw that and I think that, like, the guy who was behind her, who was hours behind her, um, slept for, like... I mean, I think he slept for, like, an hour, an hour and a half or something, but he had one nap of, like, an hour. and it just shows, I mean, you were saying at the start, like, it's, it's not just about physical fitness, it's also about, mental toughness and everything. And clearly she just, she's just ridiculously tough. that is just ins- absolutely insane.

anna audio 18:31

Yeah, like the ability to keep navigating and running while you're sleep-deprived, even like over that terrain as well. you know, your like emotions would be all over the shop.

phoebe audio 18:44

Mm.

anna audio 18:44

You would be having like completely irrational thoughts.

phoebe audio 18:48

Well, she's... Yeah, sh- she said that... I know. She said that there's this mountain at the end called Mount Elden, which is the, I think it's the highest elevation in the entire thing, and she said she got halfway up and thought, I'm done." Like, "That's it. I can't keep going." But she just, just kind of, like, kept

anna audio 19:08

going.

phoebe audio 19:09

she just kind of ignored that. and so she won. As you said, she set the course record, so no, she obviously r- won outright, but also fastest man or woman ever to, have done that race. and almost just, this is just, like, a small note we wanted to make, but almost just a flag, like, how intensely difficult this race is, is actually this, 2026 Cocodona race, a competitor actually died from a medical emergency, during the race. which is, like, obviously an incredible tragedy, and also really illustrates how genuinely risky and extraordinary these races are.

anna audio 19:49

These events are, yeah, yeah. and so yeah, so this kind of got us thinking like We thought that, you know, this isn't the f- uh, it doesn't feel like it's the first time that in like extreme endurance events and, women have come out on top. So a few examples of women winning major ultramarathon races is, Courtney Dauwalter. These-- majority of these are in America, by the way. They seem to have heaps of ultramarathon races. I feel like it's like l- less of a thing here, but maybe it will... I know that there was a like Backyard Ultra in Melbourne, over the weekend, which I think is where people do like that 6.7-kilometer loop on the hour every hour. So I feel like it is growing in popularity, but they're just they're

phoebe audio 20:33

still pretty niche here, yeah.

anna audio 20:35

very niche. Yeah. So Courtney Dauwalter won outright, a race called the Moab 240, finishing ni- nine hours ahead of the first man in second place. Nine hours ahead.

phoebe audio 20:48

That is insane.

anna audio 20:49

Pretty wild. And then there was another another female winner, Ashley Paulson. She, uh, recently won the Badwater 135, beating the second place, who was a man, by nearly 44 minutes. And then Camille Herron ran a 48-hour world record. She ran 435 kilometers in 48 hours, beating the previous world record by 25 kilometers. So yeah, it kind of got us thinking like, is it true that women become more competitive with men the longer the distance?

phoebe audio 21:20

Yeah, totally. And like, why, if so, why? Because, yeah, it do- it does seem to be like you just would never hear, even in a marathon, a, at a, at a competitive marathon of a woman, like outright winning. and so we wanted to see like, are these just anomalies that get a lot of attention, or is there some science to it? So we found this really interesting article. We'll link it. It's, it's called Women Reduce the Performance Difference to Men With Increasing Age in Ultramarathon Running, specifically. And what it is looking at is like really big data sets, basically pulling a big data set, looking at how the gap, decreases in elite runners, so in like the best of the best, from marathon through to 100 miles. and it-- I would say like there's a lot of... They had a lot of challenges in like pulling together the data, and so there are some variances. But basically, it's 10% is the gap at marathon, and then that decreases to, well, by some estimates 4%, some estimates even lower than that at 100 miles. So there wasn't a, there wasn't a point where women necessarily overtook men. but what it f- like prompted us to then look into is like all this data always looks at like elite times, and out of the best women in the world and the best men in the world, what is the difference? but there are, are actually also data sets that just look at amateur runners, and we are a podcast for amateur runners. So yeah. So what we wanted to try and understand and look at is like how much, how much better really is the average man than the average woman at running once you take out the top pack? Um, do you wanna talk about the study that we found in this space?

anna audio 23:01

there was a big study done on this out of Virginia Tech, by researchers Tiller and Ilardi, the first study specifically designed to test what happens when men and women compete in roughly equal numbers, because a lot of previous research compared male-dominated fields where women were, made up, like roughly 10 to 30% of entrants. So inherently they are skewed comparisons. So Tiller and Ilardi, these two researchers, found two races with the field made up of roughly 52% females. What they found is essentially if you take an ordinary man and an ordi- ordinary woman who both decide to run a 100-mile race, their finish times will statistically be indistinguishable. So genuinely and measurably there was no significant difference in the finish times between the ordinary males and ordinary females at 100 miles. I also feel weird saying ordinary because I feel like there's nothing ordinary about running a 100-mile race, but in this instance we j- we just mean regular normal people, not professional athletes.

phoebe audio 24:11

Yeah. Yeah. Which, and I'm, and we're, we're talking about, we are still talking about ultras here, like this wasn't true at a marathon distance. but I find that so interesting that it basically, once you're running a certain distance, unless you're like the elite of the elite, it actually doesn't really make a difference. like sex no longer kind of makes a difference. And so obviously from this we wanted to understand why. and so Well, well, we're gonna talk through like some of the theories around this. I will say like they are sort of just theories. a lot of the science is like reasonably new, evolving, done on small groups, so none of this is like settled fact. but that's also, you know, part of what makes it interesting to discuss. So what were some of the, the kind of factors that people theorized about?

anna audio 24:57

Yeah. So the first one is that women burn fat more efficiently, which I think is probably the biggest factor over these endurance events because over like at 24 plus hours, of racing, the body has to rely on fat. Like you simply can't absorb enough carbohydrates To sustain that effort. and research has found women have higher concentrations of the enzymes involved in fat oxidation in skeletal muscles, which is the machinery for burning fat, being more developed in females to males. this also means that because of the sustained period of effort, you're obviously, at a more moderate intensity rather than a higher intensity to exert yourself over this period of time. and women derive a larger portion of energy from fat than men doing the same effort at that moderate intensity. so in layman's terms,

vid both 25:50

terms-

phoebe audio 25:51

Yeah.

anna audio 25:52

essentially we are better set up to use fuel that ultra-distance racing demands. So Rachel, the winner of Cocodona, so she ran for 56 hours on 19 minutes of sleep. Her bolity's ability to keep drawing on fat stores rather than burning out on carbs matters enormously here. what's another theory that the researchers think is contributing to females being so good at these ultramarathons? Yeah, I like, there's another theory around pacing. so there's a lot of research that shows that women tend to pace more evenly, and they're less likely to go out too hard and blow up, and that makes a huge difference in ultras. I mean, it's funny, I think I've said on the pod before, I even got given the advice, this was for a half-marathon, to like, Yeah. Do you remember this? It was like, find A middle-aged woman or something? and run with her, because she'll be, if she starts out at that pace, she'll finish at that pace. And, it is a good strategy. And the other part of this is that, there's research that suggests that, female athletes may experience higher flow states during endurance events, which leads to better emotional regulation, which actually leads to like burning less energy.

phoebe audio 27:06

which I think is really cool. but yeah, so all of this is to say that like, and actually Rachel's race was a textbook example of this. basically, like she went out really steadily. She didn't take the lead till about like 60 miles in, and then just kind of held that pace. Like, that's basically what she did, versus it could, it would... Imagine how much it would kill you in an ultra if you went out too hard, and then like the crash and burn for the next 100 kilometers.

anna audio 27:35

we've both experienced going out too fast in, like, a half-marathon or anything, and those final kilometers feel so long. Can

phoebe audio 27:43

Oh, even in a 5K, even in a

anna audio 27:46

yeah, literally. Yeah, those last few laps. and lastly, this is interesting but a little bit less established than the fat metabolism research. Some research suggests that women may experience less skeletal muscle cell damage relative to men during prolonged exercise. if this is the case, it would help maintain the movement quality over multi-day events for females over males. But as I said, that's, like, a little more tentative, and is much more a theory rather than having the evidence or the, uh, data behind it.

phoebe audio 28:19

I have one more theory that wasn't in the science, but I'm interested to hear what you think. We, we spoke at the start about

anna audio 28:27

Pincus A. Coldham, 2026 says...

vid both 28:30

Yeah. There's...

phoebe audio 28:32

we spoke at the start about how, like, endurance races require a lot more mental toughness.

anna audio 28:38

Yes. Yep.

phoebe audio 28:39

don't you just think, I mean, I can say this 'cause I think 90, 90% of our listeners are, are women, and the men who listen are big champions and supporters of women. Perhaps these women are a bit more mentally tough. Is that controversial to say?

anna audio 28:53

I don't think so, given that we're the ones that bear children,

phoebe audio 28:56

You're like, "I'm feeling pretty mentally tough right now."

vid both 29:01

now." Um-

phoebe audio 29:02

Um,

anna audio 29:03

as hell.

phoebe audio 29:04

yeah. But yeah, it is ama- it is amazing. It's so cool. I'm definitely keen to follow the ultrarunning, sport more now that I have a better understanding of how great women are at it. And well done, Rachel.

anna audio 29:17

Yeah, and also, it got us talking, this isn't only, running events that women are so dominant in. Like, we, we know that endurance swimming, females, like, uh, the same if not more dominant than men. Um, and it kind of seems to be the same, like the longer the swims, the closer the gap, in performance between males and females

phoebe audio 29:42

There was, in the same research that was looking at that, like, performance gap generally... it, it, it was saying that, like, with age, the performance got closer and closer, and I was like, "This is such a cool angle for the podcast." Like, you and I both are in our 30s, like, maybe in your 30s, like, women start catching up to men. But, like, it's such a slow grind. It's not till, like, 75, I think, that- Women's performance can, like, genuinely overtake males' performance. So we have to

anna audio 30:08

So what I'm hearing is by the time we are in the residential aged care facility,

phoebe audio 30:14

I think

anna audio 30:15

will be lapping those boys.

phoebe audio 30:17

I know. I think we have to commit to when we're 75 years old, we need to, like, do some races against men.

vid both 30:25

It'll be

anna audio 30:27

Cheeky episode number 20,523.

phoebe audio 30:32

stay tuned, everyone. Up next.

vid both 30:34

People

anna audio 30:35

are like, "Please no." Yeah. Um, okay. So, our next segment, a little less serious, a little more frivolous. Um, we are going to do an am I the asshole, which is essentially people people are writing into us, with these situations, and they're not sure if they or, um, whoever it is that they're talking about are the assholes or not. please keep them coming. I really, really like it. it's so fun reading through them.

phoebe audio 31:10

So fun. Well, this week, this week you read through them, so I'm excited to hear them and play the role of the judge.

anna audio 31:18

So first of all, am I the asshole for distancing myself from a friend who takes all the wrong precautions with marathon training, e.g. decreasing fueling?

phoebe audio 31:31

Hmm. This is a tricky one. I feel like you almost need to know yourself and know how, like, triggering you're going to find that. Because if, like, being around people who maybe don't have the healthiest attitude to running, and if that's something you've struggled with before, then I think it's, like, totally fair. I mean, I, I never think someone's an asshole for, like, doing something, you know, that, that maybe they need to do, obviously, hopefully done in a respectful way. But it's, this is a really interesting situation, and I think it'll be relevant for a lot of our listeners. Because I, I would hesitate that a lot of listeners would know someone who they don't necessarily feel like has the healthiest attitude towards running. And I It's actually something that you and I have spoken about before, like, with people that we know. And, and trying to figure out, like, Do you have an obligation to say something, to, like, give, try and give them support? and I think it's, like, incredibly delicate, and unless you have that kind of relationship with them, it's really hard to have that conversation in a productive way. so it's kinda sa- it is kinda sad. Like, it's sad for them. but I don't, I don't think they're an asshole for, for doing that. What do you think?

anna audio 32:44

Yeah, I agree. I feel like, a, a lot of people, probably, like, empathize with this person because they've probably been through a similar thing themselves. But I do agree. I, I think you need to, like, look after yourself first. And If you think it's gonna affect you in a negative way, and you feel like you can't really do that much, I really don't think you're the asshole for stepping away. but yeah, like maybe it also means that the, friend is like doing things for all the wrong reasons and, they actually might need a little bit of intervention to like help- Get themselves back on track, and maybe you can do that. But if you don't feel like you're in a place to assist with that, then that is completely fine and, like, not on you whatsoever.

phoebe audio 33:27

There is probably, like, a line there where- If it's, like, genuinely triggering for you and you feel like it's, as you say, gonna have, a really bad impact on, you know, your mental health or, or impact your relationship with running, that's one thing. If you do just find it annoying, I mean, I just... I do feel like we learn so much from our friends and, like, potentially there's an opportunity for you to, not necessarily say anything, but, like, try and model, healthier habits. I think it's, if it's just, like, something that irritates you but it's not, truly getting to you, then possibly it's okay, like, you know, we, we have a, to a degree, like, an obligation to try and, like, support our friends and potentially if they're struggling, like, either creating room for them to talk about it, not, not, like, having an intervention with them, but just, like, creating that space. Or just, really going hard the other way and, like, being really proud of, like, your... Not, in, in-your-face way, but almost just like, showing your healthy running habits and potentially they're, they're inspired by you, which I think would be a great outcome.

anna audio 34:20

Yeah. Yes. great okay, so this next am I the asshole is an amateur runner all the way from Virginia in the United States.

phoebe audio 34:31

Oh, hello.

vid both 34:33

you

anna audio 34:34

Am I the asshole? I live in a very densely populated neighborhood, and I'm friends with several of my neighbors. however, I have a demanding job that requires me to be on all day long. At the end of the day, when it's time for my run, I like to run alone and turn off my brain. But I've had two of my neighbor friends ask m- me to run with them. I really don't want to. Running is my me time, so I have ghosted them both. Am I the asshole? How do I politely get out of this, or can I? They will inevitably see me running around the neighborhood, so ghosting will only be successful for a limited time till they see me out and Yeah, or, or like follow you on Strava. Yeah. I really empathize with this because I've definitely done it before, in, in the sense of like when I'm like, I actually... It's only when I'm running with someone who... Yeah. It's when I'm running with someone... You know when you're running with someone who like, maybe it's like a catch-up run, it's someone who you don't like see that often, and it feels like it's gonna take energy to see them, versus Mm. someone who you just run with all the time and you just don't, don't really think about it.

phoebe audio 35:37

But also just some runs I'm like, I actually just need to- 100% just need

anna audio 35:41

Yeah, you just wanna be by yourself. Yeah.

phoebe audio 35:43

And it is actually a really awkward thing to say, like, "Actually, I wanna run by, by myself." So I have full empathy. However, I feel like I haven't said anyone's the asshole, so if I have to, maybe I'll say it for this one. For ghosting, because we don't ghost, ghosting is bad. But I th- I genuinely think this is, the... This is, um, this situation can't last forever. Like they will see you out running. They're your neighbors, they're running at a similar time. if they don't, assuming they, you guys aren't on Strava and they don't see you anyway. So for your own sake as much as them, I feel like you need to send a message being like, "Thanks so much. I really don't like running with people. Like, I really prefer to run by myself, especially at the end of the day. Like, so sorry." I don't think anyone could be that offended, by that.

anna audio 36:32

Yeah. I feel like I would be offended. I don't think this person's an asshole at all 'cause I can really appreciate how, at the end of the day, all you wanna do is just, switch off and kinda, like, let your mind wander when you go for a run. but I reckon in that message to them, I definitely think you should message them because as I have learnt from life experience, no communication is not the answer.

phoebe audio 36:58

Anna, the chronic, the chronic ghoster.

vid both 37:02

No.

anna audio 37:02

Um, but I would say I'd add to that message, if you are f- if you are genuine, like, if you are quite friendly with them and friends with them, say, like, It's me time," blah, blah, blah, essentially what you've just said in the message to us. But then I'd also say, "Do you wanna..." Like, however you normally catch up with them. "Do you wanna, like, get a coffee or, like, come round for a barbecue?" Or like, whatever

phoebe audio 37:24

Yeah, just, like, smooth it

anna audio 37:26

don't th- yeah, so they don't, so they know that it's not actually them. It's gener- genuinely just that you like to run by yourself, but you don't actually not wanna see them.

phoebe audio 37:35

that's a good- That's very tactful of you. but yeah,

anna audio 37:39

go and get coffee with them.

phoebe audio 37:42

I'm exci- let, um, whoever this listener is, let us know how you go. We wanna hear, um, whether you reach out to them or not.

anna audio 37:48

Yeah, please. Um, okay, so okay, so last segment of the day,

phoebe audio 37:56

Yeah.

anna audio 37:57

are gonna talk through the realistic rehab diaries. So chatting through the trials and tribulations of returning to running postpartum. I wanna say thank you so much to everyone who wrote in. I posted a question after our chat on the pod last week, asking for tips about how to run and exercise best, like, in a logistical sense when you're breastfeeding. people had so many good answers, and it, I don't know, I feel like this is happening more and more to me, where I'm just like, God, women are so amazing. Like, they're so impressive. I just feel like we just, females just fly under the radar, but there, there's always, like, so much going on. Like, so much more than just, like, meets the eye. Like, yeah, you might just see someone, like, out at a gym session or, like, running,

phoebe audio 38:47

Yeah. What they've had to do,

anna audio 38:50

yeah, like, set up at home or, like, organized or prepared or whatever in order for themselves to get out there. the main things that people said, I did post an Instagram story, but if you didn't see it, essentially, people s- a lot of people said, like, get as ready as possible. Um, a- and then at the last minute, either feed or pump. and then, like, fly out the door straightaway. So not only, like, maximizes your comfort because obviously it's, like, not super nice feeling like your boobs are completely filled with milk, but it also maximizes the time that you, like, can go off to exercise, especially if you're not pumping, between breastfeeds. And s- number two, which I am, like, am living right now, is drink as much as possible.

phoebe audio 39:40

Is that right? Like hydra- hydrolyte and,

anna audio 39:43

yeah, electrolytes as well as water. because you're obviously feeding another human, and it's all liquid. Like, you're using up, so much of the liquid that you're, like, taking in, and so your hydration needs are just, s- astronomically, astronomically increased. Like, I am, I reckon I would be drinking, like, four or five liters of water a day,

phoebe audio 40:04

Whoa. 'Cause you were, yeah, you were drinking a lot while you were pregnant as well, so is it the same thing or even more? Way more.

anna audio 40:13

more. Yeah. Like, this is my third drink bottle of the day, and it's 9:55 AM.

phoebe audio 40:19

Oh my God.

anna audio 40:20

Yeah. I'm so

phoebe audio 40:22

lose all your water,

vid both 40:24

like-

anna audio 40:24

Yeah. Yeah. And I have actually noticed a difference the days that I add some electrolytes in, in comparison to the days that I don't. Like, I do actually feel way better. yeah, I guess in the same vein as drinking a lot is just, like, eating- Kind of like not actually, but, like, as much as possible. because again, 'cause you are, like, feeding another human, your, needs are just, like, so far increased. which I feel like you naturally do anyway just 'cause, like, I'm so much more... I didn't, I think I even might have said to you, like, I initially thought that I wasn't really that much hun- more hungry than I used to be. But I definitely am. I feel like I'm just, like, constantly eating.

phoebe audio 41:07

we should try and do an epis- get an expert on in breastfeeding nutrition. Because isn't it... I feel like we looked up the... Like, it's like the highest risk of like bone stress injuries and all this stuff, 'cause you're giving away all your nutrients.

anna audio 41:21

Yeah, particularly your calcium. the baby steal it all. Um, Another tip was, if you have the space or the equipment, like, try to exercise at home during nap time. someone else said kinda, like, plan, try to plan your feeds around when you know you are exercising. So, like, they always would feed at 5:00 AM because then they know straight away they would go and exercise after that. 'Cause, like, at the moment it's kinda awkward 'cause I, I mean, I have just ended up pumping because I don't wanna, like, wake Floss up to feed her just so I can go to the gym. I kind of feel like it's a bit selfish. So I'm like, I just, like, pump and, like, leave the bottle so then when she wakes up, like, Dave can give her that first feed. but yes. So thank you to everyone who wrote in. And one other thing that I did wanna quickly touch on is I noticed the other day, 'cause I get really sweaty at the gym, so I, like, took my T-shirt off and was just in my sports bra, and then I, walked through to walk out and I caught my reflection, and I haven't really, like, looked at myself that much, in a sports bra recently. And my, belly button is, like, it's not as, like, pokey-outy as it was when I was pregnant. But it's definitely, like, not the same as it was pre. Yeah, like, it just looks a little bit different. And my, like, initial thought was like, "Oh, like, that's weird." And then I thought, "No, that's, like, that's pretty cool."

phoebe audio 42:48

Yeah, that is

anna audio 42:50

I was like, "This is really cool." Like, the, it's, like, a little... it's completely fine, but in, like, it's a little, like, badge of honor. Like, yeah, like, I have carried a baby in there for, like, nine months.

phoebe audio 43:00

a little memento

anna audio 43:01

Yeah. Yeah.

phoebe audio 43:03

I wonder if that'll go back in over time or if it will just be permanently out now.

vid both 43:07

now

anna audio 43:07

Yeah, I don't know. But I was thinking, I feel like 'cause initially I was like, "Oh, gosh." And then I was like, "Wait, no, this is really cool." So, I don't know. I feel like, yeah, it kind of makes you appreciate the body as way more than just, I don't know, something aesthetic.

vid both 43:24

100%.

phoebe audio 43:25

100%.

anna audio 43:26

Yeah, and I feel like, I feel like you should be proud of all of the like bits and bobs and changes that you do notice, if you

vid both 43:32

do-

phoebe audio 43:32

Yeah. Well said, and what a, what a beautiful note to end on.

vid both 43:39

So

anna audio 43:39

So wholesome.

vid both 43:40

Just two wholesome girls ...so

phoebe audio 43:42

wholesome. Just two wholesome gals.

vid both 43:44

I

anna audio 43:46

that's all we got time for today.

phoebe audio 43:48

I think it is. Thank you so much to everyone who tuned in this week, as always, and we can't wait to be back in your ears

anna audio 43:57

next week.

vid both 43:58

I

phoebe audio 43:58

Swave Music.

anna audio 44:00

Ah!

phoebe audio 44:02

Bye.

anna audio 44:04

Bye. next week.

vid both 44:07

I

phoebe audio 44:07

Swave Music.

anna audio 44:10

Ah!

phoebe audio 44:12

Bye.

anna audio 44:13

Bye. the... I can never say this, the Cocodona.

phoebe audio 44:20

Yeah, Coco

anna audio 44:20

I feel like I'm always gonna be like Coco Cabana.

phoebe audio 44:23

Yeah, I nearly said that as well.