The Q&A Files
The Q&A Files drops A Wellness Explosion
💥 BOOM! Attention Wellness Warriors. The game changer you have been waiting for is finally here. Say hello to “The Q&A Files,” where wellness meets revolution and your questions lead to new discoveries. Spearheaded by Trisha Jamison, your host, a Board Certified Functional Nutritionist. Cohost Dr. Jeff Jamison, a Board Certified Family Physician, and featured guest, Tony Overbay, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. This podcast blends three diverse perspectives to tackle your questions on health, nutrition, medicine, mental wellness, and relationships. Dive into a world of expert insights and actionable advice, all sparked by your curiosity. Tune in, ignite your wellness journey, and join the Wellness Warrior community.
The Q&A Files
44. Are Narcissistic Behaviors Going Unnoticed? Angela’s Insightful Query
Ever wondered why some people seem to have an endless knack for deflecting blame, leaving you feeling like you're the one on a perpetual quest for self-improvement? Together with Dr. Jeff and Tony, we explore the complex web of narcissism and emotional immaturity—a journey that promises not just understanding, but also a path toward genuine personal growth. Amidst these discussions.
Angela sparks a thought-provoking conversation with her inquiry about the prevalence of narcissistic behaviors and whether they might be overlooked in therapeutic settings. We unravel the intricacies of diagnosing narcissism and the impact of manipulative behaviors on relationships. In this rich dialogue, listeners can identify narcissistic patterns, empowering themselves to break cycles of frustration and seek healthier relational dynamics. This episode is not just about identifying problems but also about learning the courage it takes to risk losing in order to truly win.
As we wrap up, tune into a lively Q&A session with Trisha Jamison, where the power of community takes center stage. This is a space to feel connected, especially for those who have felt isolated or broken. By fostering a spirit of curiosity and encouraging questions on relationships, emotional health, and nutrition, we invite you to join our vibrant circle of insight and growth. Stay curious, keep thriving, and remember to wear a smile as we gear up for our next exciting episode.
We’d love to hear your thoughts and questions! Feel free to reach out to us at TrishaJamisonCoaching@gmail.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to leave a review or share it with someone who might benefit from the conversation. Together, we can keep building this supportive and inspiring community.
Hello and welcome to the Q&A Files, the ultimate health and wellness playground. I'm your host, tricia Jamieson, a board-certified functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner, ready to lead you through a world of health discoveries. Here we dive into a tapestry of disease prevention, to nutrition, exercise, mental health and building strong relationships, all spiced with diverse perspectives. It's not just a podcast, it's a celebration of health, packed with insights and a twist of fun. Welcome aboard the Q&A Files, where your questions ignite our vibrant discussions and lead to a brighter you. Welcome back to the Q&A Files. I'm Tricia Jamieson, your host, and here with me today is Dr Jeff and Tony.
Speaker 2:Hi everybody Hello.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So as we dive into some relationship questions today, I want to get started with something a little fun. I want to ask you both what is the best piece of advice you have ever received and how has it shaped you?
Speaker 3:no pressure like the, the um wow, that's a.
Speaker 2:That's a deep topic. I'm not really, I'm jeez. Okay, well, I'll go first I'll okay I'll share.
Speaker 1:So it's funny because I was thinking about this, because my mom always says has has said a lot of positive things, but one thing that really stands out to me that she has always said to me is bloom, not broom, bloom where you are planted. Been times in my life that I haven't felt like blooming where I've been planted and I haven't liked where I've been or there's been, you know, some significant challenges in my life and I just have always appreciated that kind of scrolling in the back of my head because I think it's true. I think when you bloom where you planted, you really grow and you develop into the person that you really want to be and I just really appreciate that. So I just want to thank my mom for that great little piece that she's always put into my little head.
Speaker 2:Okay, Tony, do you have one?
Speaker 3:You know, honestly I don't, but I'm going to say this. Okay, you go.
Speaker 2:I have one, and then you can go. Maybe you can, you know, rake together a little piece of wisdom. Okay, so my dad said, in order to win, you have to risk losing. And I figured at first well, I don't want to really lose. Who wants to lose? No one wants to fail, but if you don't try, you'll never get anywhere. And so I thought that was really good information, and I've used it a lot in not only my own life but teaching others that you know, sometimes you have to get out of your comfort zone, and that's a good thing. It's a good thing.
Speaker 3:Okay, I will say this could maybe be a podcast topic for another day, but I actually this is who knew that we'd have to cue the violins and have a real moment for me here. But I have thought often about the fact that I don't necessarily remember having some very sound advice given, whether it was from a parent or a grandparent or, and I've wondered before, was that advice not given or was it my little ADHD brain running around like crazy, not paying attention to things? But I've been really intentional as of trying to put some things into my family system of it's all things that that from my practice, my podcast of. You know you're not broken, you're human. This is the first time that it's you going through life, so check that out. Or you know your combo of your, your nature and nurture and birth order and DNA and abandonment, rejection so many things that I want my kids to recognize, and sometimes I do it.
Speaker 3:I've never said this out loud, but from a place of, because I don't necessarily feel like I had that some sort of like these life advice moments growing up. Yeah, yeah, so I really, I really like the question. Yeah, panic me for a second, but yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3:Well, I was trying to get panicked, I know.
Speaker 1:Well, I knew that if I asked for celebrations, you'd be hoeing and humming.
Speaker 3:Oh, I had 10 of those today, tricia, but I did not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, no, I'm saving them for another day Nicely sidestepped.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Yeah, one thing my dad said was don't give all your celebrations away in one day, see.
Speaker 1:Well, we wouldn't want that. Okay, thank you, gentlemen. Okay, so we have a question today from Angela, and she says this question is for Tony. After listening to a recent podcast episode where the statistic about diagnosed narcissists was mentioned, it struck me that, while the percentage of diagnosed narcissists is relatively small, those who display manipulative behaviors and gaslighting can significantly impact those around them. I often wonder if therapists may sometimes miss these behaviors or even be fooled by them, especially since many narcissists don't seek help because they believe they're perfect, she says. I keep hearing that the term narcissism is overused, but I feel that it might be misleading. After all, if someone isn't in therapy, there's no way to truly know how many people exhibit narcissistic traits. Given that many people are trauma bonded and may blame themselves for issues in their relationships, how accurate do you think the statistic on diagnosed narcissists really is? Is it reasonable to assume that the prevalence of narcissistic behaviors is much higher than what's reflected in clinical diagnosis?
Speaker 3:Oh, that is the greatest question, Angela, for real, because we could build a whole podcast series off of that. And it's interesting when I did mention this recently on a podcast and some clips got up into social media.
Speaker 3:I don't get a lot of backlash on social media, not that I'm asking for it, but I put content out there that I feel confident about. But the statistics were attacked like nobody's business, more so than I've seen in a long time, and I, you know. I wanted to just say, hey, I'm delivering statistics. You know the old don't kill the messenger. But I think that Angela says so many things that I agree with there, where I do think it's got to be underreported, because who is going to admit that they are a narcissist? A lot of times you're going to get the people that are taking tests the narcissistic personality index or you know an MMPI or some sort of personality test, and it's going to show a strong signs of narcissistic traits and tendencies. And then, but the people that go right up to full-blown narcissistic personality disorder. I even almost wonder are they not the smart narcissist? Because they didn't know that's what the test was looking for, so they answered the questions in a way that then showed up as narcissism. But that's why I go so big on emotional immaturity, and I think that if the narcissistic personality disorder diagnosis was switched to various types of emotional immaturity, then we might see a more accurate representation of what we're really seeing and it would be really high in my opinion, because that's where I think we're all emotionally immature, until we're not. And if that could be really charted or diagnosed then I think it would be far bigger than these three, four or five percent of the population numbers that you see. So I know that was part of the question.
Speaker 3:I know there were other pieces of that. Oh, do therapists get full? I think she said do is like is it possible that therapists maybe sometimes get get duped? And I was going to say is it possible? Oh, it is always. I mean, it happens all the time.
Speaker 3:And this is one of my biggest frustrations because it's funny, the session I just got out of to jump on the podcast here was from someone that I think has has probably received more harm or damage from their therapist than I know the therapist intended. But because their narcissistic husband has manipulated the therapist for a couple of years and then every therapy session just feels like a pick on my client. The wife sessions and then the narcissist then uses that when they leave the session to then say see, even the therapist also thinks that you're the problem. And so I think that when a therapist doesn't really understand that population, that I thought they would just take you to jail right away. But you're sitting across from one and they, just they make up a story and then you look like the crazy one, where you react to it Like wait that is not even true, you know.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, there's that the question. There's so many layers. I'd love to hear your guys too. I could talk on.
Speaker 1:Goes back to this quote that I like is you can't guide somebody to a place that you've never been.
Speaker 3:And so if somebody really hasn't experienced narcissism or extreme emotional immaturity in their life, then they're going to naturally default to what I call the Switzerland friends. Well, there's two sides to every story, or? I'm sure that that isn't exactly what this other person meant, and so the person that is actually going through it is is going to feel so invalidated, or they're going to continue to feel like they're crazy. Because if you haven't experienced that, then you probably are just assuming that, okay, this person's being a little more dramatic, you know, than are there. I'm again, I'm sure that they're playing a role in this as well.
Speaker 3:But having dealt with it in in you know various areas of my own family system, and then that, drawing me to the population that I have, then you know in essence what I'll quote normal, healthy behaviors look like versus extreme, emotionally immature, manipulative behaviors, where someone is not taking ownership't sit with discomfort, reacts like a truly emotional, immature child would act in you know, not getting their way or using anger, or you know to manipulate. And so those behaviors are, I mean, they are so prevalent, and and if you've worked with those or if you've had those in your own family, then you know what it's like. If you't, then you aren't going to have a clue. You don't know what you don't know, and so I guess it goes back to how do you help people understand more? And I just worry that if you haven't experienced it, it's really hard to acknowledge something that you just don't know, that you don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just, I feel, I mean we get this a lot in and these women are struggling so much with trying to grasp their own identity and when they're constantly being berated or attacked and trying to stay above that, you know they're trying to stay above water and I just I feel for them. I feel for them when they you know and you hear how they went to a therapist or they met with someone and they are the ones that are the problem.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And, and so I I think it's important for them to understand what it is that they and it's it's I guess I'm thinking of. They need to ask themselves am I okay, did this happen? Because so often they flip things around and make you feel like the crazy person and something didn't happen and they convince you of those things. So you need to check in with your own reality. Am I feeling this way? I'm okay, and just check in with yourself, and I think that those things are going to be really helpful. And especially because a lot of times you hide partner heights because they treat the spouse different than they do other people, and so the people around them just think that they're awesome and wonderful, and so it's hard to even come out and share how they're feeling, because others are like that's not who I see. You know he's absolutely.
Speaker 3:And so I think it it makes this narrative even worse, because they're like well, maybe I am crazy, maybe I'm the problem, and I think that there's some probably emotional immaturity, definitely on both ends, because, especially when people don't understand how to navigate that well, but I think you know our group, your podcast, really helped them rise above that, so they- Well, tricia, what I think you're, what I hear and I appreciate this so much is that it I would say unfortunately, but it it has to end up being the individual journey, which is so difficult because the person has been made to question their own reality until to the point where now they are going and listening to podcasts and that are still they're the one doing the work and they're trying to figure it out, and it's easier to say it's me, because I can fix me, than to say, okay, it's my relationship, or what if my spouse is the problem, the I mean, I mean the real problem, because I can't fix him or her. Um, and that's where it goes back to. Okay, then I. Then I have to work on me and I like what you're saying.
Speaker 3:I have to start to trust my own gut, my own feelings, and if I'm going to a therapist and it just doesn't feel right and I continually leave there feeling worse, and then now that's being used against me from my partner, then I need to recognize that that isn't. I don't wanna keep doing that. And so through this relationship, you will learn a lot about yourself. But that's really difficult from the what I typically call the pathologically kind person that's in the relationship with the narcissist, because they are the ones that are trying to continually figure it out, blame themselves and then offer up suggestions to the narcissist. Who is just going to take that and use that against them?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Mind if I jump in here for a couple of things. Yeah, please. I have two thoughts. The first one is I'm so glad that your client came to another therapist, because I think that it's a bad therapist that takes sides, yeah, and I think a therapist should be able to call out bad behavior on either side. I think that's reasonable, but I think that if a person is then taking those thoughts and they're weaponizing them against their spouse or their partner during the non-therapy times, we've got a therapy problem, yep.
Speaker 2:And secondly, as a person who has had to confront my own personal selfishness and narcissistic tendencies, you know you don't become a doctor because you feel like everyone else is. I mean that everyone else is better than you, okay. Yeah, everyone else is. I mean that everyone else is better than you, okay. And so you have to come from a place of fairly healthy ego to be able to launch into that program, anyway. So that can sometimes take a turn. That may not be that healthy, but one of the things that I found is that when you're in a position where you're wondering if a person is having narcissistic tendencies, if what they're doing is they are pointing the finger away from themselves in order to avoid their own discomfort. That's a way that a person can self-identify yeah, identify. I think you know. If you're just you're trying to lie or scream your way out by making somebody else well, yeah, I did that, but you did this too or you know you're always saying things that make the other person either complicit with or responsible for the behavior that happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah, go ahead, I just think that that's a really.
Speaker 2:Those are great ways to go. Aha, here we have a problem. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3:So what I've been thinking about lately too, jeff, is what you just said there about when you're saying, okay, it wasn't me, it's you, you're the problem. What also happens with the person like probably Angela that wrote in here is I would imagine that she's going to then say, okay, then I will go find a way to fix it. And I've been viewing this in my head lately, as it's the narcissist not only gets rid of that discomfort, but they just sent the other person on basically a wild goose chase where that other person is going to go read another book, listen to more podcasts, try to come up with more ways, better themselves, but with the hope that they can show back up in the relationship and make the relationship better. But then it's like that's.
Speaker 3:I did one recently called the attack surface, where, if the narcissistic person is not self-confronting and working on themselves at all, or then then anything, it's almost like okay, now what have you had? Bring this back to me. You've been gone a month and a half on your journey to try to figure out the relationship and now you know, the pathologically kind person says, okay, I think it's this. And now the narcissist gets to just easily bat it away. No, I don't like the way you're doing that. I don't like the way you're saying that. I didn't even say that. So and then the kind person says okay, I got to keep working on this, I got to figure this out.
Speaker 2:The narcissist is not working on it, on the relationship, and so that I think it's there they become Teflon. Nothing sticks to them. Everything is somebody else's fault.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 2:And and so when? When they don't have any responsibility, they can never be wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly, there's so much truth to that. And you see that all the time with these poor women, they're just. They're just, like you both have mentioned, they're doing everything they can to find a way to either improve them, improve the relationship to you know, what can they do to make things better? And it's not about that it's.
Speaker 2:but I love what you just mentioned as well, and that is that they need to find out for themselves what they need to do has been kind of universal in the way that the people that are being abused respond and way that the narcissist or the extremely emotionally immature person responds. That points to them not being responsible.
Speaker 1:I gosh. I think when they come into the group, they are so I hate to say the word broken, but they are. They're very broken, and after they start to listen to podcasts you know, tony, when they are involved in our group calls, they find a place to land that they feel wanted, they feel accepted and they feel like they're not alone. I think that that adds so much power to them, because this is a usually you feel like you're on an island by yourself and you have, you're all alone, you don't have anybody that can even relate to you. When you come into a group and there's so many that can relate to you, I think it's very empowering for them and they just feel at home. Sometimes it takes time for them to feel comfortable enough to just start to allow themselves to be vulnerable and share, especially in our smaller groups that we have on our calls. It's amazing what comes out and these stories are so heartbreaking and you just want to go reach across wires and give them hugs, but I think that they are so relieved.
Speaker 3:I think there's just this relief that they feel when they are with people that understand them. Wife, in this scenario, and I was going to say, I do have clients where the the female is the narcissist, and the and the male is the, the pathologically kind, and those, those present their own challenges as well as some additional challenges. But I do find that then, when the there's another vibe that I see often, where the narcissistic person will say things like but I think this goes into the immaturity piece Um, yeah, just tell me what I need to do in order to make this better. But then you're still telling the. In this scenario, you're telling the wife you know that, okay, it's still on you to tell me what to do in order to make things better. Because then what you'll often find is in that scenario, the guy will then say well, okay, well, I'm not, I don't want to do that, but tell me what else I can do in order to fix it, it's a little more pleasant for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, it's easier for me. But then also, okay, let's say that. Then she feels put on the spot and says, okay, well, I guess it would be good if you did this, and again, after he's already said maybe not that, maybe this, maybe this. But then, okay, I did it. Now are things better. And so I think that what that speaks to at a deeper level is the immature or narcissistic person's version of what healing a relationship looks like. Look, just tell me what to do, I'll do it, and we can get back to the way it was, because I thought it was fine.
Speaker 1:I think that's still one upping them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, for sure yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's that same yeah.
Speaker 3:But it's like. But it's like. That's the part where it's so interesting to see that the the person like Angela is asking a question really trying to say I want to understand, I want to know more of what I can do from a doctor, from a therapist, from a coach, from a podcast she's probably read books about this and then the narcissistic person is just saying, okay, you tell me what I need to do, I'll do it, and then we're good. So it's not that. What am I doing? How am I showing up? That is not benefiting this relationship and it's not going on the deep dive of reading their own books and going to therapy and really self-confronting. It's still like they don't know what they don't know about what healing even looks like, and I think that's part of the difficulty of the person trying so desperately to heal the relationship.
Speaker 2:To me. I think also that I think that there are times that in this scenario, if the man is the narcissist or the person who's behaving inappropriately, let's just say he says you know what? I really didn't realize what I was doing and I'm waking up to my own narcissism and I'm going hmm, how can I make this better? And then your spouse says, well, if you just took the garbage out every week and I didn't have to ask you, or if you just said this or did that, those things are not what they need.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The things that the person who actually wants to change their narcissistic behavior is. They need to hear when they do something poorly, how it made the spouse feel, and then they have to confront their own discomfort there.
Speaker 1:And they don't flip it on them.
Speaker 2:Right. They have to be able to say, okay, I see what I did, and then to be able to make small course corrections. And of course the big problem there first is to have the trust in that person to be able to tell them when they make mistakes, and to have that and trust of course takes consistent positive behavior in order to be able to find that safe space to be able to say those things.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a whole other topic, and that's not an easy thing, to do Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a whole other spot.
Speaker 2:But, oh my gosh, you know and so, but a narcissist will take. Well, all you need to do is, like I said before, take out the garbage, or you know, bring me flowers once a week, or you know, if you do these things, then I'll know that you're actually trying Right. But those things aren't there. They're empty actions without heartfelt understanding.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good sound clip right there, dr Jeff.
Speaker 1:Very good. Okay, well, this was excellent. I hope Angela feels heard and that she had some great, some great feedback from the two of you, really.
Speaker 2:Thanks, angela, great question.
Speaker 3:As I say, angela, whatever you do, don't now go have your narcissistic person listen to this and say hey, I got all the answers. They won't take that well. No, no, they won't.
Speaker 1:Exactly Well. I just want to say thank you to Angela for your thought provoking question. It really highlights the complexities of identifying narcissistic behaviors and the challenges that come with navigating relationships influenced by manipulation and gaslighting. It's essential to recognize that many individuals may not fit neatly into diagnostic categories, and understanding these nuances can help us create healthier boundaries in our lives. Tony and Dr Jeff, your insights have shed light on how we can better support ourselves and others in recognizing these dynamics For our listeners.
Speaker 1:Remember that if you're grappling with similar issues, you're not alone. It's okay to seek help and find resources that empower you to break free from those patterns. So if you have questions about relationships, emotional health, nutrition or anything we discussed today, please send your questions to Trisha Jamieson coaching at gmailcom and we'll see you next week. Goodbye everybody. Thanks for tuning into the Q&A files, delighted to share today's gems of wisdom with you. Your questions light up our show, fueling the engaging dialogues that make our community extra special. Keep sending your questions to trishajamesoncoaching at gmailcom. Your curiosity is our compass. Please hit, subscribe, spread the word and let's grow the circle of insight and community together. I'm Trisha Jameson signing off. Stay curious, keep thriving and keep smiling, and I'll catch you on the next episode.
