The Q&A Files
The Q&A Files drops A Wellness Explosion
💥 BOOM! Attention Wellness Warriors. The game changer you have been waiting for is finally here. Say hello to “The Q&A Files,” where wellness meets revolution and your questions lead to new discoveries. Spearheaded by Trisha Jamison, your host, a Board Certified Functional Nutritionist. Cohost Dr. Jeff Jamison, a Board Certified Family Physician, and featured guest, Tony Overbay, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. This podcast blends three diverse perspectives to tackle your questions on health, nutrition, medicine, mental wellness, and relationships. Dive into a world of expert insights and actionable advice, all sparked by your curiosity. Tune in, ignite your wellness journey, and join the Wellness Warrior community.
The Q&A Files
52. A conversation with Tony Overbay of the Virtual Couch Podcast: Overcoming Emotional Immaturity for Better Relationships
Happy Birthday Trisha!
Ever tried selling a grand piano on Facebook Marketplace? Our latest episode of the Q&A Files kicks off with some personal tales of downsizing and the hilarious adventures that come with it. Join us as Trisha Jamison, a board-certified functional nutritionist and Tony Overbay, a licensed marriage and family therapist and seasoned podcaster from The Virtual Couch, Waking up to Narcissism discuss these issues for Tony's podcast, The Virtual Couch. (Wherever you get your podcasts!)
Trisha and Tony discuss emotional immaturity and narcissistic traits and offer a path to healthier relationships. We share our own journeys of growth and healing to show how. This episode delves into the challenges of navigating emotionally complex relationships and the power of validation. Whether it's dealing with resistance from a partner or unlocking the transformative potential of self-awareness, our candid discussions aim to provide fresh perspectives and practical strategies for listeners who might be walking similar paths.
Join us next time as we discuss how to keep your relationships fresh by talking a newlywed couple who are just as cute as can be!
Questions? Email us! trishajamisoncoaching@gmail.com
Hello and welcome to the Q&A file, the ultimate health and wellness playground. I'm your host, tricia Jamieson, a board-certified functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner, ready to lead you through a world of health discoveries. Here we dive into a tapestry of disease prevention, to nutrition, exercise, mental health and building strong relationships, all spiced with diverse perspectives. It's not just a podcast, it's a celebration of health, packed with insights and a twist of fun. Welcome aboard the Q&A Files, where your questions ignite our vibrant discussions and lead to a brighter you.
Speaker 2:Trisha Jameson, welcome to both the virtual couch and, I think, waking up to narcissism. And, while we're at it, maybe love, adhd, murder. On the couch, the mind, the mirror me. I might run this everywhere. How are you doing? There you go.
Speaker 1:And a Q and A files as well.
Speaker 2:Okay, Well, and let's jump right into there. So Trisha is and her husband, jeff, are I was gonna say my co-host. I think I'm your co-host. I feel like you're the chief. I don't want to say bottle washer, that's what comes out next but you're the main host of a podcast that I'm involved in that I really enjoy, called the Q&A File. So maybe first talk about that and then we'll get to today's topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we have listeners that will send in any kind of question on medicine. So my husband, jeff Jamison he's a family physician, I'm a functional nutritionist practitioner and a life coach, and then we've got Tony, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and so all three of us have a lot to cover, and so we'll have people that will come in and ask all kinds of questions, from health, mental health, to relationships, any kind of nutrition, exercise, medicine, anything like that, and it's just been a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:It's been so fun and it's funny. I just started smiling because, yeah, I think I've tried to.
Speaker 2:you've mentioned things like oh, don't eat too much candy, I mean, so you'll give some like whatever right and then or maybe we need to sleep, dr Jeff will say but then we'll also have like a mental health thing, and I really like that angle of I think when we were first kicking it around before we started recording it, it just I liked the idea of here's a thing that we're going to talk about and hear the three different angles, and sometimes we're fairly similar with what we say and other times not so much.
Speaker 1:Well, that what we say and other times not so much, and that's the whole idea is we want to have different perspectives. So I think it's been really fun and, yeah, sometimes we get to sit in our discomfort.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You're not agreeing with me.
Speaker 2:I know, right, and that one's a funny one too. And then every time we start, you ask for celebrations of what's gone Well. I know I'm not, and so do you have a celebration. What's been going on well in your life this week?
Speaker 1:Oh, there you go. Yeah, here we go. Yeah, my celebration is we are literally a week away from moving and it's been all summer and spring. It's taken every ounce of energy we've had. Yeah, and going from a much bigger home to a very much smaller home has been quite a process. Getting rid of everything and, yeah, it makes you realize in 21 years all the things that you require, especially from six kids, because we have a lot of stuff from our children.
Speaker 1:They have left and we have to worry about their things as well as our own.
Speaker 2:But yeah, this is so not the topic today and I know we're not going to end up with enough time, but have you guys tried to sell anything on Facebook Marketplace?
Speaker 1:You know, it's really funny because we were going to sell our piano. We had a grand piano, kauai, and I think we had it up. I think we got it for 10 grand years ago, long time ago let's gone through all of our kids and playing piano. But we put it on Facebook marketplace and they somebody had come in with $4,000 that they had offered and we're like I said, you know, I wonder what it's worth. Let me just check and see what it's worth. So we had someone come out and did an appraisal on it. Guess what it was worth.
Speaker 2:I've seen antiques roadshow before, like a hundred grand.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no. Well, now it's going to be $29,000. Oh dang. Okay, I know, so I mean we're going to. We were thinking about selling it for four and then we find out that it's worth a whole lot more. And so that was fun, but yeah. Are you taking it with you? No, I think we're just going to get it all shined up and we'll probably then sell it. Oh gotcha.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now that we know what it's worth and we've got papers for it and everything so kind of cool.
Speaker 2:So the reason I the only reason I mentioned that is when we were moving the psychology of Facebook marketplace. I'm literally writing a podcast episode on it because it's insane and it is this we try to sell something and then you can hit a little thing that says is it still available? So you get like 10 different people that says is it available? And you and at first the rookie in me I respond to them as if these people are very, very interested in my stuff, and then they don't follow up, or then, okay, I'll be by, can you hold it? Sure, and then they don't show up. And they don't show up and it's just mind blowing.
Speaker 2:But then we were going to buy something, this mirror for the garage, and we're on the way over. We tell the guy we'll take it, and then, almost there, and he says, hey, sorry, I sold it to somebody else. And so then I go back home and I want one. So all of a sudden I'm clicking Is this available? Is this available, is this available? And all of a sudden I'm doing it.
Speaker 2:And so then, when somebody finally responds, I don't go back and say to the other eight people hey, I think I found one. So then and I realized, oh, I'm just as guilty. And then I've got a whole tangent which is for another day, but about when people are in the world of online dating, when they're kind of getting back out there after relationships or young, younger people, and there's so much ghosting, and I just thought, oh, it's the same thing. You swipe on somebody and you're basically saying, hey, is this still available? Is this still available? And then, and then they and then they find the person that they're going to go to see if that's a good mirror, and then, and then they don't tell all the other people that.
Speaker 1:Hey, I think I'm going to date this person, so I think I'm onto something.
Speaker 2:I think you are too Okay One on that train of thought, yeah, man, this is not the topic today, but it's so fun to just talk about this. So then I make a post because we have one bookshelf left that we're trying to get rid of on Facebook Marketplace in Arizona, to the point where I'm trying to give it away. And even then people are saying I'll be right by and they don't show up. I don't hear from them again. So I make a hilarious post about it and then I basically lay out the I want to do a podcast about this and I post it on this Facebook page in the city in Arizona that I live in now, and then the next morning I thank goodness.
Speaker 2:I kind of forgotten about it, cause and the reason I say thank goodness is back in my days of wanting nothing but validation I would have been checking every five minutes to see if somebody thought it was hilarious or fun or reacted to it, and so I forgot. And then I wake up the next day and nobody's responded. So I think, oh man, I really did care more than I thought. Well, then I go look at the notifications and it's nowhere to be found. As a matter of fact, the whole page is gone, and it was thousands of people. So yeah. So I found myself just thinking okay, did I get blocked, you know right, and so I don't know that is the mystery of Facebook Marketplace.
Speaker 1:So did you finally take it to Goodwill?
Speaker 2:No, because I spent too much time writing a hilarious post, I'm going to post it somewhere. I got to find some group.
Speaker 1:You just got to keep it.
Speaker 2:I do. I know probably All right, so that is not what we're talking about today. The reason I asked Tricia to come on today is I-.
Speaker 1:Wait a minute. What is your celebration?
Speaker 2:Oh, I did not plan one.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:I'm really enjoying our grandson. He has little dimples and he smiles and laughs and I can get him to smile at me all the time. It's amazing. And then I get to walk away when he starts to cry and you hear about that. How fun that is and it really is. So I'm enjoying that. We're talking about virtual couch and waking up to narcissism. Today, trisha is a part of the women's group that I have. That is part of waking up to narcissism. For women who are in relationships with narcissistic, I always say fill in the blank and I feel like it's some old timer going that narcissistic fill in the blank. But it can be a spouse, it can be a parent, it can be an adult child, it can be a boss, it can be a sibling yeah, anything.
Speaker 2:And so and Tricia is a very positive person, almost to the point where I think when we started the group we've talked about this a little bit where maybe everyone isn't always excited about that positivity, but I really do appreciate it and you've really found a nice place there and help a lot of people I don't know raise their emotional baselines and tap into their values and do the things that help them. And that's my really long-winded way also of saying very positive. Trisha is an incredibly positive human being. I am a couples therapist now for almost 20 years. I don't know 1,600, 1,700 couples. I love it.
Speaker 2:But a lot of the population I work with is the emotionally immature or heading toward the world of narcissistic traits and tendencies emotionally immature or heading toward the world of narcissistic traits and tendencies. And so that isn't the only people I work with. Half of my clientele when I'm seeing 20, 25 couples a week, are people that didn't know what they didn't know. They get the tools. It's a little bit uncomfortable and then they grow together and they live happily ever after. It takes a little bit more time than that, but a lot of who I work with are the people that yeah, both are both. I mean, we're all emotionally immature till we're not. That's what I like to say.
Speaker 2:And so then we come into relationships and then we're codependent and we're enmeshed and we're trying to figure ourselves out, and sometimes somebody has had enough of their own wounding from childhood that the more that one person gets healthy or heals, the other person kind of pushes even harder against that, because they need that person to stay back in this enmeshment. Or else all of a sudden they're exposed and it's a lot easier to blame your spouse for everything than to see your spouse heal, which you always, we think. No, I want them to be the best version of themselves. But then sometimes when that person starts to differentiate and evolve, it leaves the partner who it was a whole lot easier to say well, it's your fault to. Now the light shines on them and they have to do their own work. So there are times where then that doesn't go so well and the whole marriage therapy piece is kind of exposing the incredible immaturity in one partner and then it's giving the other partner more clarity and that will often it's such a long way away for me to say might lead to divorce Cause even as a marriage therapist I still feel like my hope is that I can save every marriage.
Speaker 2:But there are people that are in unhealthy relationships and it zaps their whole sense of self. And so then I noticed this article called how to build trust in a relationship, and then I, as I was reading them, I was knocking all of them down. So then I reached out to Trisha and I said hey, I think I got an idea for podcasts. Can you come on and like, give the positive spin to these? And I'm going to acknowledge that. I do know that there is a positive spin, positive way, but I'm going to give the narcissistic slant, trisha how do you feel about that?
Speaker 1:I positive way, but I'm going to give the narcissistic slant.
Speaker 2:Trisha, how do you feel about that? I think that this is going to be great. Well, and there's in our group. There was a really good post, and there's an account on Instagram that I really enjoy. It's called the secure relationship, and the person her name's Julie Menino, and she has an amazing book that I bought called secure love, and, and so I really like it, and especially because the account itself has a lot of cartoons and I like cartoons.
Speaker 2:But somebody in our group posted this and it says a new perspective and the post. It has two little birds on a couch and then another bird in a chair and one says my partner's a selfish narcissist. The other one says my partner is irrational, emotionally unstable and it's borderline personality disorder, and so I think those are the two birds that are in a relationship. The other one says my partner is irrational, emotionally unstable and it's borderline personality disorder, and so I think those are the two birds that are in a relationship. The other bird, who's the therapist, says maybe that's true, but another option to consider is and then the couple birds cut back in and no, my partner is a selfish narcissist. And then the bird as a couple's therapist says that's an option, and when you don't have any other way to make sense of the problem, that can feel better than not knowing or blaming yourself.
Speaker 2:But before you attempt to make that diagnosis, let's consider another option. Maybe your partner hasn't yet learned how to access and express emotions, and of course it hits you as cold and distant. And then Julie goes on to give a really nice explanation of what you see often in couples therapy. But the people I know that some of the people in the group have taken a little bit of. I don't want to necessarily say offense to that, but it can feel really invalidating when you are starting to maybe even wake up to your own immaturity, or definitely the immaturity in the relationship, and you start to grow and use the tools and the other person pushes even harder against those.
Speaker 2:And I know that we've also had some and I apologize, trisha, I'm just on a roll here but I know that we've also had some and I apologize, trisha, I'm just on a roll here but I know that we've also talked about in the group where if you go to a therapist that doesn't understand the dynamics of this kind of a relationship, that they can just be really really validating to the more emotionally immature or person with the more narcissistic traits and tendencies and that only gives them more fuel, and then the person that I identify as the pathologically kind leaves their feeling completely gaslit and hopeless. And so I just think this is a bit of a. There's a lot going on here and so yeah your thoughts before we get to the article.
Speaker 1:So my thought first of all is I think it's imperative to validate both, Because in my situation, I grew up with a father that was definitely a narcissist, like it all We've talked about that a lot Alcoholic, he was a golf professional and every part of his life was perfect and he wanted perfect kids and yeah, but I was the last number four and I played golf and so he wanted me to be the golfer. Well, I didn't want to play golf, and so it led to a lot of contention because I was a people pleaser. I wanted to make sure that I kept the peace, and so I basically even though I love to do other things like I was a runner did very well in running, but to keep the peace, I tried to follow what he wanted me to do and not pursue my own happiness.
Speaker 2:So tell that one story where you had one, where you even felt like he had told you that if you do a certain thing, or then you don't. Was it that you could run or you don't play golf, and then that he wasn't, he didn't follow through.
Speaker 1:Yes, so in high school I actually had a high school record that I kept for 33 years. But I got a scholarship in running and early on in when I was in high school my dad said, okay, well, you can run, but when you go to college you're going to play college golf. And so I thought I'm going to work so hard to show him that I'm going to be the best runner I could possibly be, and for sure he will understand where my heart is, and it's not golf. And sure enough, graduation day I received this amazing scholarship from running and he looked at that and he says throw it away. So I had to throw it away and went on to play college golf at BYU, hated every moment of it.
Speaker 2:Did you man right?
Speaker 1:I did because, where my dorm was, I actually overlooked the track. Wow, I, where my dorm was, I actually overlooked the track and I got to see these amazing athletes running around the track and doing all the things that I wanted to do so badly. And so, yeah, it was really painful, but so that was my life. So it was easy to then marry into a relationship that continued that journey for me, a relationship that continued that journey for me.
Speaker 1:And until I grew up and learned how to think for myself and to recognize some of my own behaviors that were creating the enmeshment, and how to remove myself or to kind of take a look from a bird's eye view and be able to see oh my gosh, this is what I'm involved in. This is, and until you learn those tools and thankfully my husband at the time you know he didn't know either, he didn't know what- he was doing but it was just a natural thing for both of us Cause the way he grew up.
Speaker 1:We talked to Jeff and I talked about this on our last podcast actually, and you weren't on there, tony, so this will be a great segue here for those that want to listen to that one. But you know, we just talk about how how we grew up, kind of formulated those characteristic traits within each of us and how we continued down that road, as unhealthy as it was, and so we were able to both take a look at that and recognize wait a minute, this is not a healthy relationship.
Speaker 2:What do we?
Speaker 1:want to do different and he probably is an unicorn because he has a great desire to change. Is he perfect? No, am I perfect? Absolutely not, but we work hard together to continue to change and grow in ways that are going to propel us in a positive direction.
Speaker 2:So I appreciate that so much. And this is the funny thing, when Trish and I talk, when we're just like preparing for a podcast or just just talking about the group or anything, trish is so positive that I think today I want to say we're we're giving each other permission to yeah, but one another. So yeah.
Speaker 1:So here's your, where's your? Yeah, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:That was a good segue, but it's. It's even when you said both of both people need to be validated and it's like they do. But it's interesting because I think that a therapist that doesn't recognize emotional immaturity is not only validating, because that's the and I love this one dealing with the emotionally mature is that they're used to either being agreed with or disagreed with, and if they're agreed with, all is well. If they're disagreed with, well, then you obviously don't understand. And now it's almost like it's second nature to now put you in the one down position.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't say that, or I can't believe you don't understand that, or well, that's not the way I know it, and so and I call that it's given them, it's not just narcissistic fuel, but you're giving a run at confabulation gym. It's like oh yeah, please tell me I'm wrong Cause then I know what to do with that, and yeah, and so then I do agree that validation, but it can be like oh well, I can understand. If that's how you feel that, then it seems like that's all you can do. The example I get with this one often is if I get the I don't know a mouthful to say extremely emotionally mature person with narcissistic traits and tendencies all the way up to narcissistic personality disorder one time. But so the narcissist though again they're they truthfully aren't being curious about, maybe, their spouse's experience. They want to convince the therapist most of the time that no, if you understand what I know, then you will join me and we will aggressively triangulate against my spouse. And then they will finally understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Or him wrong, depending on who the right.
Speaker 1:I'm just thinking our group.
Speaker 2:No, I totally I was going to say but I get enough feedback sometimes where, like, it's not always the guy and I'm like okay, well, yeah.
Speaker 2:But in that scenario, though it's in that point I feel like I'm trying to model to the pathologically kind person that if that is how that person feels, then I can understand why they're frustrated. That's that version of validation I'm good with. But what you'll hear then is like oh, tony agreed with me. Well, no, tony didn't disagree with you. So then you assume if it's not a disagreement because that's part of that black or white thinking then it's an agreement. So I love that right out of the gate. When you're saying they both need to be validated, I'm like, yeah, and, but that validation is even something that looks different.
Speaker 1:So there's a part of me that wants to honestly do you have a yeah, but to that? Well, my thought when I made that comment was, when we were going through some of those discomforts that we had to sit in and recognize our own behaviors, that we were, whether it's we were focusing on what we wanted or defending our egos, or I didn't say any of that, yeah. Right, but I think I'm the, I'm more of the kind person and he was but.
Speaker 1:I think I'm more of the kind person and he's a physician and he talks about that, how they have a lot of recognition and they have to. There's a lot of responsibility they have, they're saving lives and making hard decisions, and so when he comes home and he would act a lot like that with me and I didn't know how to stand up for myself at the time and sometimes his tone would be really harsh and I'm not like that at all, and so he has learned how to talk to me in a way that doesn't hurt my feelings, and I've had to talk to him in a way that I'm way more direct.
Speaker 2:So I guess, when I was talking about validating.
Speaker 1:It's validating each other's position and recognizing-.
Speaker 2:Even if there's a silly is what we're saying yes, even if there's silly, right.
Speaker 1:And so it's focusing on the purpose, the forward motion. What is it that we both want, and sometimes it's messy in between. Forward motion what is it that we both want, and sometimes it's messy in between? Yeah, but when you've got someone that's really working towards, you know, having a better, healthier relationship, that's the validation I don't necessarily mean the validating of someone that is like their opinion there, every opinion that comes out of their mouth, yeah, yeah, that's not what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about somebody that really is trying and is still making mistakes for sure, we both do. But now, really, tony, utilizing your four pillars has been the biggest game changer for us, and just really, and we don't even think about it anymore, it's just a second nature and I we never thought we'd get to that place where we didn't even have to think about it. It just is something that we just kind of fall into.
Speaker 2:And honestly, I feel so validated from that. Because that whole process of becoming, I think, people don't, how can you understand that if you don't, if you haven't experienced it? And it is we don't know, we don't know, we know we don't do it very often Then we start doing it more than we don't and then it just is you become and that is it's amazing.
Speaker 1:Well, and when you're in a healthy relationship, you want to validate your partner and so, being part of that process, that's what we do is we do validate.
Speaker 1:We're listening, we're being curious, we're asking those questions where you know we're not shying away from each other, we are leaning in, we're doing all the things that really make a relationship what you're hoping it to be. When you look at how far we've come, it's just like literally night and day. So it's been a tremendous amount of work and we work out it every day. But yeah, that's the validation piece.
Speaker 2:Okay, and here's what I like. So we're yes anding, we're not, yeah, butting. So what is interesting is if I can share that story of early on in the group and I remember this where, when I think it seemed like you were a little bit frustrated with how some of the reactions of people were when you were trying to insert that positive or hey, maybe there is a chance for things to change. And it is because you guys did, you were able to change. And that was pretty profound. And I remember you saying to me it was a.
Speaker 2:To me it seemed like a really profound moment where I think I was saying well, I was saying this is the population I'm working with. They're here, that they're. They've been trying to get this change for a long time and it seems like the harder they try, most of the time it seems to get worse, because the immature person is so immature that they need that person back in that role that they've been playing. And so then I think at one point, if you remember this, you might've said well, how many people have you seen that? I don't know. Do you remember this conversation?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, Okay, and I was kind of like oh, actually, not really anybody at that point, maybe like just one yeah. And that was like, I think, at the time you had three. Okay.
Speaker 1:Three people that had really made that shift. And then you came back and you said ah, maybe it's just two now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I just mean that with this is and it goes back to that secure attached relationship Instagram posts where the couples therapist in me would love to help everyone save their relationship. And you do have the tools because you've been doing it for a long time and you're offering those, but then if somebody is incredibly immature, every tool is a weapon, I mean no.
Speaker 2:And so they take that and then they're like you're not for pillaring me not. Oh, I need to learn the four pillars or in this world of differentiation. I just see this happen over and it sounds dramatic over and over. But if everything is a me thing which has been so empowering for me for differentiation, why am I? Why do I need this person to know? Why do I need this person to calm down? Why am I feeling this way about this situation? But then that immature person takes it and they're saying, oh, so that's a you thing. So it gets out of their discomfort. They're like, well, you don't like the way I talk, that's a you thing Instead of you don't like the way I talk, I need to self-confront. Am I saying something in a harsh way? So I think that's what's so interesting is, and you do the couples therapy as well. So I'm not trying to discount that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's been very fascinating too, because I've been working with several women in the group and you know, at first I think that they find that it's a lot the spouse. And then, as we go through the experience of just learning new tools and helping them understand that there's different roles to play, then they start to go oh, wow, okay, so I do have a role in this. What is my role? What can I do different? What choices do I have? And so I think sometimes it's allowing them to recognize that there's so many choices. But when you've got a spouse that is trying to move forward and trying to do those things and sometimes gray rocking and doing all those things that you would normally would do with somebody, that is definitely in a different space, yeah, it doesn't work Right? Because then when the spouse is doing the same thing that the wife is doing, and then they're like well, you're stonewalling me and they call it other.
Speaker 1:So, it's not the same. You can't do the same thing actions and expect these results, because they are now learning and growing in a way that they can move together, because they both have the desire, even when things are messy, and a lot of times it's like well, I've got a lot of triggers from past experiences and so it's learning how to stay present, to stay in that space it's 90 seconds whenever there's an emotion for those chemicals to go through and to flood through your body.
Speaker 1:But you get to decide, okay. So am I going to stay in critter brain the emotional part of my brain and react poorly, or am I going to ask myself some questions? Get my CEO, my prefrontal cortex, back online so I can think through this and recognize is he trying to hurt me? What's happening right now? And so then, when you can start asking yourself some questions, then you can calm down and you can be curious and ask okay, so what did you mean by that comment? Or you know, help me understand where you're coming from and then have that dialogue instead of it being so such an affront.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and what I so appreciate about this and when we talk about this, is because you've had some experiences where you've been able to learn that and you know it. You are speaking from a place of integrity with that, you're not just saying this is an idea I've heard about, so that that will help people, I think, get through it faster and then.
Speaker 2:But I think, even as you're saying that I know that this is kind of almost back to that post again that people that aren't there still feel so unheard that if you say that stuff too early, then they're just thinking you don't understand it is, and I think that's one of the things I think we yeah, we realize that really well and that's why I again, I make the joke all the time that I missed the day of therapy school, where you're not supposed to work like life coaches, cause I really think that shows right there where you can help say, hey, this is where we need to get to. And I do feel like more of what I'm used to doing is saying, where do you want to go? Cause I think they want to go there and most people do, but then it's like it's scary, and how do I do it and when? So then I love saying the. And then if you don't, if you're unable to do what you want to do or what maybe a good life coach is guiding you toward, then I can work with that. Let's, let's now look at that and so.
Speaker 2:But the fact that you can speak it, because and this is a current fixation of mine, because I'm realizing that, as I'm learning more about being differentiated and I'm sitting with that discomfort and I'm self-soothing and I'm, you know that I can express myself from a place of integrity, as grounded, and it turns out I don't need the validation, it doesn't rattle me. So now, all of a sudden, it's like oh, this is. I want to talk about it and I think about. I can talk about being very, very emotionally immature, recovering from that, or having ADHD, or having this cure and the anxious, the anxious attachment, or those sorts of things. Right, and I've realized now that, man, if you have not experienced it, I have a hard time talking about eating disorders, because I really don't know what that's like not even trying to insert a joke in here, but right, so that's where I think you can do a lot of good. Very powerful, because you really have spoken to this or have experienced some of these things that you're teaching. But people still just want to push that, don't they?
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, and they push hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And sometimes it is it's. You know, I'm in this group and I volunteer all my time and I put classes together and sometimes I have handouts and do all fun things.
Speaker 2:You do. You're very fancy with that.
Speaker 1:But then it's man. I'm here for them. I'm here to give them hope and have something potentially to hold onto, and sometimes they don't want that. They want to just take time to feel all the feelings and go through that process, and that's imperative. You have to. I had to go through all that, I had to, and it was messy, and you know, tony, it was messy, it was ugly and it was. But now, on the other side of that, I can share that it gets better and it's brighter and a sunnier day and you have opportunities that you may not see at the time when you're just so full of misery and despair, and so that's what I'm trying to help pull them through and help them see. You know what it does. There's so much more that you can see and feel and be part of and be present and come with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I appreciate, of course, when you shared that I'd been there with you.
Speaker 2:We can even edit that out, or I'm grateful for that, because that's why I want to just say it's like, man, you know what you're talking about and so maybe even when I'm going to get to the things for the article is fun though because I want to ask you because you said something a little earlier that when you were saying and I love it so much, where my whole mission with the waking up to narcissism podcast was trying to say, okay, narcissism is what three to 5% of the population we throw it around like it's 70, 80% but let's start talking about we're all emotionally immature, because then it's easier to take ownership of my part, and then I can maybe look across the street there and I and I can acknowledge, okay, I, I wanted to just blame them, because that then I wouldn't have to maybe acknowledge what I've been doing. And so it sounds like you were saying a little earlier there that, yeah, once you get to that different place, you can see your own part. Is that what?
Speaker 1:you're saying that I've played. How hard is that?
Speaker 2:Is that hard? Because that's a powerful moment when I see that in a session.
Speaker 1:So this is interesting. I've always grown up that everything's my fault, so it actually wasn't a hard thing for me at all.
Speaker 2:Not a leap, not a leap yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think it was easy for Jeff, because I would apologize all the time and I recognize all the things that you know and I would, even if things weren't my fault, just to keep the peace, especially growing up, I would make it my fault or be responsible. Now have had to work with undoing a lot of things, because the last thing you want to do is you want your children to be empowered, you want them to feel of your strength, not to watch you be pummeled and just being treated poorly at times and just being treated poorly at times. And I think that it definitely I had that personality that I always I seem to be. At the time I felt like I did a great job being in the shadows and just making everybody else shine, and I've done that my whole life.
Speaker 1:I would just kind of be in the background, but, boy, I worked so hard for the person that, whatever it was, and so, jeff, I made him shine. And I think the thing that I had to recognize is not everything's my fault and that I had to be okay with allowing other people to take responsibility. So that might sound really be okay with allowing other people to take responsibility? Yeah, so that might sound really weird.
Speaker 2:Oh, it sounds powerful. Think of the golf example, even right there. I've never looked at it that way of that. You made your dad look good because he could say that he has a college golf person on a scholarship and he did not want. He didn't want to say, I have somebody running because he was a golfer.
Speaker 1:So that was yeah, I hadn't thought of it quite like that.
Speaker 2:And, what's funny, I had either cause my son, jake. He got this full ride basketball scholarship and played a year and then he decided that he didn't want to do it anymore actually ironically to play golf, pursue golf. But when he did that I was really learning a lot about differentiation and I realized how quickly I wanted to say man bud. But I had adjusted my therapy schedule so that I could go to the games, I could go on the road trips, I could work from hotels. I was looking forward and I really enjoyed saying I have a college basketball playing son, it's wild, cause I wanted to do that growing up. Yeah, I know I was having a moment there on your behalf when you're saying cause that was you doing it for somebody else and I was grateful that he was like.
Speaker 2:he didn't say that's a you problem, bro, but I mean basically he didn't. He had been hopefully raised well enough where he just said I don't want to do this anymore. And I was so proud of him, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, good for him, see, and I didn't have that strength at the time. And now, jeff, he's always maintained I want you to do whatever you wanna do and go live your dreams, and he's been supportive of that. But I think I have held myself back because we're living his dream. He's a physician. I don't have room or there's no time for me to pursue any of my goals, because and I would never change being at home and being with my kids, because that has been the most fulfilling thing that I could ever do and I have loved every minute of it. But at the time it was like I don't have the confidence to do anything different and I was definitely confident in being a mom and all those things as a mom and I, like I said, loved every minute of it. But then there was a time I had that opportunity to go back to school to learn, to credentialed in lots of different areas, and it has made such a difference in me and who I've become and who I am continuing to become.
Speaker 1:And it's just been, it's been pretty exciting. And, yeah, to stand up by myself sometimes and it's funny is I love to speak and which is interesting because most people that they don't, they're like terrified. But to stand up and I like become a different person and I love that. I love that I can just be someone else and even though I'm me and I'm sharing my own stories, it's I don't know, there's just something that overtakes me that I just love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought about that one so much, cause I really I also love speaking. I've done it, also, love speaking. I've done it a bunch too. And I think I've wondered that because I know that I've worked with people that are actors, that people that are politicians, people that they put on almost this false front and then you can sometimes, in a good therapy setting, get them to acknowledge that oh, that's the false self. It's like acknowledging the mask they get to wear. But I've wondered before about, oh, I think that I just like validation a lot, although at the point where then I finally found myself in therapy and really loving everything about it, now I realize, oh, now that I'm okay, I don't want the validation.
Speaker 2:And I remember early on, even in the podcast, I wanted nothing more than to get the email saying this is great, and now you'll go back a few years and now it's. I don't like I'm cause I'm okay now and I think that's been an interesting shift. But it's also caused me to almost not. I still love speaking and I'll do it any chance I get, but I think I used to be almost aggressively looking for opportunities to do it, where now, if I'm given an opportunity, I'll do it in a heartbeat, and so I've almost felt that internal shift of I'm good now. So I would love to share my talents, my experience where before it's. I think I'll feel better if I can go talk to people and they tell me I'm awesome.
Speaker 1:So yeah.
Speaker 2:I can appreciate that I started to really I can appreciate that.
Speaker 1:I started to. Really there was a woman by the name her name's Sherry Du and she like I don't know. I remember hearing her when I was about 12 years old and she would just incorporated some really fun stories, very inspiring, and I thought I want to speak like her and she just planted the seed inside of me that I don't know. There was just something about her presence and her positivity and her fun and just her in-depth wisdom that just really I gravitated towards. But this will be. I've been asked to speak again at the Women's Leadership Conference in November.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in Charleston. I'm excited about that, so that will be my. I think that will be my third one, but those are experiences that I would normally, with my personality, be really nervous to do, but I look so forward to it.
Speaker 2:Okay, tricia, can I? Because I know I've got a client in five minutes and I don't want to end this as abruptly as we're going to have to. But when you just brought that up, I have to tell a funny story, cause I watched you speak at the one. What was the one in Washington? Is that the?
Speaker 1:ship conference.
Speaker 2:Louisville. Oh, the one that was online. Okay, my, my bad, watch, watch me edit this out. I really won't. But I was about to say, oh, the one in Louisville. But it was really funny because Tricia had let me know about it and I was like, oh, I'd love to see that happen. But then you were keynoting that one and you were telling me that some of the former people that had keynoted were like the CEO of it, was like Meg Whitman or these people like that and you were joking right About.
Speaker 2:They're going to find it and say we didn't mean for you to be the keynote. That was funny. But then you got there and you were the real keynote. You did a great job. That was fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I might end up taking 10 minutes in speed running through the 15 things tomorrow morning before I record an intro, but thanks so much for taking the time. This was. I think this was really powerful to hear about that healing journey, a little bit of the differences between therapist, coach and then everybody. Go check out the Q and A files. I'll put the links in the show notes and then one of these days I think I've been promising to run a bonus episode on the virtual couch for I don't know a couple of years now, it seems like, of the Q and A files.
Speaker 1:So I need to run. I need to run one of those as well. I think we've got a couple of them. Yeah, you've even sent me the audio, I think that.
Speaker 2:yeah, I think they're fun, but please everybody go check that out. So, trisha Jameson, tell Dr Jeff he missed a good one.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning into the Q and A files, Delighted to share today's gems of wisdom with you. Your questions light up our show, fueling the engaging dialogues that make our community extra special. Keep sending your questions to Trisha Jameson coaching at gmailcom. Your curiosity is our compass. Please hit subscribe, spread the word and let's grow the circle of insight and community together. I'm Trisha Jameson signing off. Stay curious, keep thriving and keep smiling, and I'll catch you on the next episode.
