The Q&A Files
The Q&A Files drops A Wellness Explosion
💥 BOOM! Attention Wellness Warriors. The game changer you have been waiting for is finally here. Say hello to “The Q&A Files,” where wellness meets revolution and your questions lead to new discoveries. Spearheaded by Trisha Jamison, your host, a Board Certified Functional Nutritionist. Cohost Dr. Jeff Jamison, a Board Certified Family Physician, and featured guest, Tony Overbay, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. This podcast blends three diverse perspectives to tackle your questions on health, nutrition, medicine, mental wellness, and relationships. Dive into a world of expert insights and actionable advice, all sparked by your curiosity. Tune in, ignite your wellness journey, and join the Wellness Warrior community.
The Q&A Files
60. Breaking the Chains: Surviving Domestic Violence. Trigger Warning! This May Be Difficult For Some Listeners.
In this episode, we discuss the tragic case of a mother murdered despite a protection order. Her 17-year-old son discovering his mom's body while sheltering his younger siblings. The aftermath of domestic violence ripples through generations, reshaping how children form relationships and perceive safety at their most foundational level.
This episode unpacks the devastating psychological impact of domestic abuse on children through attachment theory. Tony Overbay explains how witnessing violence creates insecure attachment patterns—anxious, avoidant, or disorganized—that follow children into adulthood, while Dr. Jeff Jamison details the physical toll: persistently elevated cortisol levels, constant fight-or-flight activation, and developmental challenges that affect everything from academic performance to social connections.
For parents who've escaped abusive relationships, we offer a roadmap for helping children heal while navigating their own recovery.
We also tackle the complex emotional landscape facing abuse survivors—the guilt, empathy, and lingering attachment to abusers despite everything they've endured.
Healing isn't quick or linear, but with emotional consistency from the safe parent, children gradually distinguish between healthy and unhealthy relationships. If you're struggling with domestic violence or its aftermath, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline: 1-800-799-SAFE. Remember that healing is possible—even after the darkest experiences. You are NOT alone!
Hello and welcome to the Q&A File, the ultimate health and wellness playground. I'm your host, Tricia Jamieson, a board-certified functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner, ready to lead you through a world of health discoveries. Here we dive into a tapestry of disease prevention to nutrition, exercise, mental health and building strong relationships, all spiced with diverse perspectives. It's not just a podcast, it's a celebration of health, packed with insights and a twist of fun. Welcome aboard the Q&A Files, where your questions ignite our vibrant discussions and lead to a brighter you. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Q&A Files. I'm your host, Trisha Jameson, a functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner and a life coach, and I'm committed to your health and your well-being. Joining me today are my two esteemed professionals, Dr Jeff Jameson, a board-certified family physician, and Tony Overbay, a licensed marriage and family therapist. So glad to have you both here with me today.
Speaker 2:Hi everybody. Esteemed professional, I feel like I should let me take my monocle out and greetings everyone, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, before we delve into today's topic, let's take a moment to share some celebrations.
Speaker 2:Hey, wait, wait. So the times that I'm prepared, we've not done them.
Speaker 1:Tony, you are never prepared.
Speaker 2:One time I was.
Speaker 1:One time you were. I've been hearing that you're asking for celebrations with your clients in classes, and so that makes me happy.
Speaker 2:Yes, I am. Yeah, I do it when I don't have anything prepared. So thank you. I'm kidding, no they're awesome, I do. I love it because it does make you think more of it. I think it's interesting, though, that I know that we could do them here. So what is it? What's the psychological block that's occurring where I'm not thinking?
Speaker 1:about it. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:Let me go lay down on my couch.
Speaker 1:Let's discuss this. Yeah, go lay on your couch and we'll talk about it. Are you going to lay on the virtual couch? No, I have a real couch right there. I want you to be thinking, too, about your own celebrations, because this is so good for your emotional, mental health as Tony is sharing with us. Oh, good Listening.
Speaker 2:Ready set go. Trisha, a long time ago you talked about, I think, on here or maybe you and I were talking and it was about just getting out five minutes of sunshine, yes, and so I normally start seeing clients really early five, six, seven in the morning, which is really funny because as a therapist, I thought, well, there's some therapist law that you're not allowed to start doing this before nine.
Speaker 2:But then, as I start working with more people and then it moved to eight and seven and six and then with the advent of virtual it can be whatever time, but I will work with some people before they go to work and I really enjoy that. So I would miss sometimes the sunshine. And when you had mentioned that, I just I meant to tell you a long time ago that I try to, even between clients, even if it's just go out and walk around my building or that sort of thing, and I think of you often when I do that.
Speaker 3:So I did that a couple of times this week.
Speaker 2:So thank you, there's my. I'm celebrating that and celebrating you, Tricia.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:You're welcome, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate that. That was very awesome.
Speaker 3:Well, today is March 15th and today we have two inches of snow on the ground in Spokane. Wow have two inches of snow on the ground in Spokane, and I'm not necessarily grateful for that. But a couple of weeks ago I was grateful to be able to take Tricia and our son, braden, and we flew from Spokane to Yakima, where our daughter lives, and we spent the afternoon with them and then flew back at night, and that was exciting and fun, and so I just got to do one of my favorite things and do it with my favorite people. So that's a celebration for me, awesome.
Speaker 1:Yes, that was so fun. We got to see our four grandkids and we so enjoyed that Tricia how about you?
Speaker 1:Okay, well, my celebration is that I just launched a new program called Healing Hearts, and it's an eight-month program, and this is a program when couples literally are done, they have thrown in the towel and they can't take it anymore. They feel so stuck, they're in these painful cycles and they just don't know how to break free. So that is the couples that I am looking for, and if that happens to be you, give me a call, because I would love to work with you and it's been so fun. Hey, by the way.
Speaker 2:I love that you're sharing that too and it's funny because I will often think on my virtual couch podcast or wake up to narcissism. It's so funny. I will often not share the things that I'm doing and I will just joke and say I'm the world's worst salesperson. But I think it takes a lot of courage to say, hey, I can offer this and I'm grateful that you do, because I know that you have a special set of skills and I appreciate that I appreciate Jameson Well, thank you.
Speaker 1:And you Well, thank you. And you know it's been 37 years of compiling and putting things together and just our own marriage that we've worked through a lot of challenges, so I've got some pretty awesome techniques and tools that I've put together. It's a full, very comprehensive eight-month program, and there's a lot of fun things to do too. It's not just like heavy. I've got some really fun things.
Speaker 3:And there's also some tools that we got from the illustrious Tony Overbay.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, that are part of this and I give you full credit.
Speaker 3:I will take that credit Okay.
Speaker 1:Yep absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 1:All right, well, thank you both for sharing your celebrations. Now, as we transition in today's topic, I want to acknowledge that the subject matter is super heavy and maybe distressing to some listeners. We'll be discussing a very, very tragic incident involving domestic violence that resulted in the loss of a life and the profound impact on a family. Our aim is to shed light on the realities of domestic abuse it's far reaching consequences and to provide support and resources for those who may be in similar situations in similar situations. So I'm going to share a story and I'm going to actually read it from the newspaper, because this is from a and I'm going to get emotional. But sorry, this is from a, my niece's in-laws family, and this happened a couple of weeks ago. They just had the funeral last weekend, so it's been pretty fresh for everybody. Pretty raw.
Speaker 1:Yes, pretty raw, but I did ask for permission to share this today because it goes into a question from one of our listeners. On February 27, 2025, in Kingston Washington, a devastating event unfolded that shook the community Celestia Marie Contensi, a 48-year-old mother of four, was tragically killed in her home. Her estranged husband, contensi, was arrested in connection with her death. This incident was not isolated. With the culmination of escalating domestic violence In October 2024, celestia obtained a protection order against Catenci Due to prior incidents of domestic violence. Such orders are legal measures to intend to protect individuals from further harm by restricting the abuser's access to them. Just two days before the incident, on February 25th 2025, celestia filed for divorce, a step that often signifies a critical point in abusive relationships. It's a period where the risk of violence can escalate as the abuser feels a loss of control.
Speaker 1:On the evening of February 26th, their 17-year-old son picked up his dad from the SeaTac airport after his return from a trip to Mexico. They drove to a property which was under construction and designated as their father's residence due to the protection order. Upon arrival, his father allegedly threatened his son's life with a nail gun, forced him to tie himself up with extension cords and took his phone and house key before leaving him restrained. The son managed to free himself and ran approximately a mile to their home. Upon arrival, he discovered his mother's lifeless body. She had been stabbed to death. He found his 10-year-old and three-year-old sisters hiding in a bathroom. They escaped through a window and hid near a chicken coop until authorities arrived. Law enforcement apprehended the dad the husband, ex-husband nearby after he crashed his vehicle. He was found with blood on his clothes and he was taken into custody without incident. So this tragic event underscores the severe consequences of domestic violence and its profound impact on families, particularly on children who witness such trauma.
Speaker 1:Exposure to domestic violence can lead to a range of emotional, psychological and behavioral issues in children, both in the short and in the long term. Children witnessing domestic violence often experience intense fear, anxiety and depression. These emotional scars can persist into adulthood, affecting their overall well-being. Such trauma may result in increased aggression, social withdrawal and difficulties in forming healthy relationships. Academic struggles are also common due to concentration issues. Stress from domestic violence can manifest physically in children, leading to symptoms like headaches and stomach aches. Without prevention, these adverse effects can extend into adulthood, increasing the risk of mental health disorders and perpetuating cycles of violence.
Speaker 1:Understanding these potential outcomes highlights a critical need for comprehensive support systems for children and families affected by domestic violence. Finding a safe environment, access to mental health services and educational support can help children heal and develop resilience in the face of such traumatic experiences. So this is like beyond heavy here. But what happens when the damage has already been done, when a parent is left trying to help their children heal while navigating their own trauma? This brings us to a heartfelt question from one of our listeners, donna, who's grappling with the aftermath of domestic abuse and its effects on her children and her new relationship. This is Donna's question. Do either of you have any comments first before we go into her?
Speaker 2:question. I jotted down some notes. I appreciate you driving this episode, tricia, because there's so many thoughts. You driving this episode, tricia, because it's like I'm there's so many thoughts, but I don't I'm as I'm sounding right now.
Speaker 1:This is where the ADHD is not a superpower, so it can go a lot of different directions. So, yeah, well, it's. It's. There's just so much. There's so much here. So I appreciate that I'll share a question and we'll just continue.
Speaker 1:So Donna writes how can I address the fact that my children have been subjected to their father's abusive behavior for so long, leading to feelings of abandonment and the development of anxious, avoidant attachment styles? They struggle with forming close relationships, fearing both intimacy and inevitable goodbyes, especially given our frequent moves from my ex's job. Additionally, I find myself grappling with residual guilt and empathy towards my ex-partner, despite the harm he has caused us. How can I overcome these feelings? Lastly, I navigate a new serious relationship. What advice can you offer to help my partner understand and cope with the ongoing challenges and fears stemming from my past abusive relationship, especially considering the potential threat my ex-partner poses to our safety? So, oh, my goodness, there are so many layers here and this is so, so heartbreaking. Donna, I just want to take a moment to acknowledge your strength. And she's actually part of our group. So Tony has a group, the Waking Up to Narcissism. He's formed this platform for women to feel safe, to be part of a very private group. There's about 730 women in there now.
Speaker 2:We have a group at this point, tricia, I mean, you play a very active role in that, which I appreciate.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate that and yeah, so Tony and I, we teach, we volunteer time and it's hard.
Speaker 3:It's heavy. You're there for support as well for them, as they share their stories.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you can see their healing and what they're struggling with and they're moving through things, you're grateful. You're grateful to be part of them because they are so powerful and they don't even know it. But I just deeply appreciate what Donna has gone through. I've actually had an opportunity to get to know her and she's amazing and she's so courageous. So I just want to thank you for sharing your question. I know that's hard because I know that this may resonate with others who may be facing similar struggles. So, to understand the impact of what Dawn is asking, I'd like to start from the beginning. She mentions attachment styles, which is so important because children exposed to domestic violence often develop insecure attachment styles as coping mechanisms and these patterns can deeply influence their ability to form and maintain health relationships as coping mechanisms and these patterns can deeply influence their ability to form and maintain health relationships as they grow. So, tony, could you please explain anxious and avoidant attachment styles and how they manifest in children who have experienced trauma?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh man, what a good question. So I just did an episode that maybe we can even link to on the virtual couch, right it went, went into the, because there's some new data out that talks about how you can change your attachment style. But it's later in life and we're almost looking at that, calling it your attachment orientation, because there's been a belief for a long time that you were almost locked into the type of attachment style that you had. But but it doesn't make sense. I mean, it only makes sense that once I'm aware of it, yeah, it's going to be a process to to change that attachment style, but that it. You know, I never want somebody to feel like they're locked in and they can't do anything about it.
Speaker 2:But there's a. There's four attachment styles that typically we talk about. So you've got secure, which I lightheartedly again, this is probably not the greatest example, to go to joke set today, so I'll try to minimize them, but you know that's an attachment style that is, it's about healthy relationships. A secure attachment is one where you you have a secure home base, you can return back to your parent is they don't make it about them, you know they are there for you and it's so fascinating that somebody that has a secure attachment with their parent they don't even know.
Speaker 2:I'll give you a quick example, and from my own life is the more I learned about these things attachment styles the more I tried to help my kids have a secure attachment. And I really believe my son, who's the youngest and they're all adults now has probably the most secure attachment with my wife and I, and they're all adults now has probably the most secure attachment with my wife and I. And what's fascinating about it is this most simple example of him quitting his full ride basketball scholarship to decide to play golf. That he didn't consult with us and it's because he felt confident in himself and he knew that we would support him.
Speaker 2:And that, I know it sounds so simple, right, but it's like I know that my other kids that are, so they're so amazing, but I know that they are still worried about how my wife or I will take something. So they do want us to you know, hey, what is your opinion, which I appreciate, which that's the part that's so interesting about attachment styles, where it sounds like a great thing for a kid to say but are they asking my opinion because they really just want to integrate it in with what they are already wanting to do? Or they already have what they want to do made up and they just want to make sure that they're they've checked all their blind spots? Or are they saying, hey, I know that if I do something wrong, that you will be upset, so I want you to tell me what to do so that you will feel better about it, which I think is unfortunately the way that most of us are are showing up in our relationships with our kids, whether they're little or adults. So that secure attachment is, it's healthy, it's positive, it's a positive view of oneself and others and relationships, and you've got the secure base that you can return to. Even if you go out there and you you don't, I want to say, mess up. I'm still such an act clinician where it's like it isn't messing up, it's you trying for the first time, but you know that you're not going to have a parent that's going to say told you so or yeah, I don't think you would be good at that. I mean none of that Cause. That's like how about? Hey, whatever you want to do, opinion me as a not you older version of me. Yeah, I don't know what that would be like for you to do that. So you tell me what you think about that or what you would like to do, and I got your back. So I think that's a real secure attachment.
Speaker 2:But then you've got avoidant, which is a type of insecure attachment, and you prefer independence. But it isn't the cool version of that. It's that I can't count on anybody. My parent wasn't there necessarily for me, and so then I am more avoidant and I, and then, even when somebody tries to insert themselves into your life, then it is. You pull back even more.
Speaker 2:And then you've got the anxious attachment style where you worry, you're so afraid of being abandoned or rejected, that then you just you know you crave this closeness and this intimacy, but then you can become overwhelming. I am an anxious attachment style person, and so if I'm sitting with my own thoughts or emotions all of a sudden, and the other person's just on the other side of the room doing their own thing, it's hard to not think okay, why are they not telling me that everything's okay? So, are things not okay? Maybe I better just check in. Okay, are you good? Like, is everything, you sure? And if they're like, yeah, I'm good, okay, all right, you seem like you're not.
Speaker 2:So I feel insecure. Can you make me feel better right now? But I'm not really sure what it's going to take, so you're probably going to get it wrong. And then I'm even going to say you don't care about me and I'm broken. So that anxious attachment is a pretty heavy one. And so so often the anxious and the avoidant find themselves together and and it becomes this, this push, pull dynamic, and then you've got this disorganized where it's a, it's a combination, and then that's one where sometimes I feel like I am, I want to avoid, and sometimes I'm, I need somebody to tell me I'm okay. And so those three are all the ones that I typically find people. Somebody with a secure attachment is not typically coming into therapy because they're good, or, if they do, they park their unicorn outside and they pay with gold from their leprechaun.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay, that was excellent. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:I want the validation. I'm like, are you sure, was that okay? Yeah, okay that was excellent.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. I want the validation. I'm like are you sure Like was that?
Speaker 2:okay, yeah, yeah. Well, it was all right, I'll do it again. I'll do it again, trisha, I promise I'll be better.
Speaker 1:I'll make it perfect. Yeah, no, so thank you. Donna's question highlights so many challenges that other victims of domestic abuse face, not just in their own healing but in helping their children recover as well. So I want to continue with Tony and Dr Jeff to break this down step by step. Tony, we just talked about how children are exposed to domestic violence and how often they develop insecure attachment styles. Often they develop insecure attachment styles. How can a parent like Donna help shift her children toward a more secure attachment, even after experiencing such instability?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so good of a question and my heart goes out to Donna as well, because I think one of the things where I first go and it is heavy is that someone doesn't get into this place or position overnight, that I know that it has been a long buildup of things and I was the notes I was jotting down even while you were. We're telling the story is and none of this is meant with any bit of shame or anybody did anything wrong, because it's just we find ourselves in relationships with typically the familiar and I'll just take a quick tangent. I can think of one. This is not one person that comes to mind where she was married and then her husband. There was abuse there and then she ended the marriage there and then she ended the marriage. And and I'm saying that this way because usually the person's you know, if there's physical abuse, I'm gone, says the person until there's physical abuse, and then they're still saying, well, I don't think he'll do it again. And that's such a wild place to watch somebody go through. But you want to be there to support them.
Speaker 2:But this is cause. That's why I say it's so unique that this lady she just like, oh, he did that and but this is that's why I say it's so unique that this lady, she just like, oh, he did that and I was, I was done, and I literally said, how did you do that? And then she had shared with me that her, that her parent had said her dad had just always told her like you don't put up with that for a second, you don't put up with that, and he had modeled that. You know, if somebody did something or whatever's, like she said, her dad almost had the pendulum swung too far over, where he almost went too far, not giving someone a second chance, but then, but then she operated from this place of oh why, I'm not gonna put up with that, and so good for her I know but that.
Speaker 2:but the reason I even say that is like it's so rare to do that. So somebody like donna's position, I think has this opportunity now to try to create this new dynamic with her kids, but just know that so it almost had to get to. I hate saying it this way, but it's like nobody wants it to go this way. But now that it is here, now you have this opportunity to try to change a dynamic in a family and help your kids recognize that hey, that isn't okay.
Speaker 2:And one of these ways is by not making excuses for the abuser, because so often this is where the I would say the wife in this situation is typically that what identifies pathologically kind Kindness is great, but when it's pathological it's to one's detriment, and so that's the part where I think the pathologically kind piece comes in of I'm gonna continue to give somebody the benefit of the doubt, even when they're doing things that I've told myself I wouldn't put up with. Or if somebody is allowing those things to happen. They really need to be able to look introspectively and say why am I allowing these things to happen? Is it because of the pattern that I saw modeled in my home? Because if so, I now need to break this cycle, because am I modeling this for my kids as well, that it's okay to stay in a relationship where there's abuse?
Speaker 1:So do you have any thoughts about how she can shift her children toward a more secure attachment?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think a lot of it is going to be, and it's so uncomfortable because we all we want to make things better right now. And I think I'm glad you're so good at pulling me back into there, because Cause I think, oh yeah, what I was starting to say was uh, then I went on a tangent, is it literally it took so long to get to this point that it's the she's going to want to just make them feel better right now, but it's going to be a pretty gradual shift of they're going to need professional help. I mean, they really are, because typically the moms now she's going through her own stuff she's going to feel guilt, she's going to feel like, why didn't I do this sooner? She's going to she needs some help with that, because there needs to be an acceptance that well, I didn't know what I didn't know, and I am here now and now what do I do? Moving forward? Because that shame is there, it's our. It's the way that we dealt with things as a kid, where if we beat ourselves up and got down somebody, our parent, would come in and say, hey, champ, it's okay. But I mean, Donna, I want her to know that it is okay, it happened. She didn't know what she didn't know. Now here she is.
Speaker 2:And so now, moving forward, find those tools to be able to validate your kids' emotions, that they're going to be upset, they're going to be angry and too often that's where I was going with that and give them space and, yeah, exactly, and allow them, cause it's going to feel, make her feel bad, that they are frustrated, angry. And that's where often the mom, they have such a hard time which I get of not saying you know, hey, he, he was just your dad's, just you know, he's not a bad person, he's just going through some stuff, or so you know, do your best to not make excuses for him. I think that's where you can meet your kid and say, man, what is that Like? How do you feel? That sounds hard, you know. And then and I think there's a real way to to not throw him under the bus and still also say I have been scared too, like that has been really difficult, because now we're having a shared experience with our kid, we're validating their emotions, because if they're saying that they feel upset and hurt, and if I'm, if that makes me uncomfortable as a parent. So now I'm making excuses for the, the abuser. You know, then I'm, I'm doing a couple of things.
Speaker 2:I'm showing my kid that their feelings are wrong with their saying I'm so angry. I'm saying, hey, don't, don't be angry, like right. So I need to let them have that. And then I also need to model that, yeah, I'm angry too, and and now you can do something about it, like we are not going back into that again. You know, this is where we break that cycle, because all those things are saying to your kid your feelings are okay, I, I, I'm not man.
Speaker 2:That's where I was like earlier. Oh, I have too many thoughts, because I've talked to plenty of people that have said that they watched things like that in their family of origin and that they just thought, why did my mom not leave, you know? And almost like, did she not know? And then I will sit there thinking, oh no, I've worked with that mom in that situation where she's saying I need to make sure my kids don't know. You know, I need to show them that I am strong. Well, the strength is doing the difficult thing, and so often I think the person in that situation thinks that I need to just act like everything's okay. I need to show the kids that you know, I need to make excuses for the abuser.
Speaker 1:I need to hold it together.
Speaker 3:He's strong, yeah right, but yeah, whatever that strong means though.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think it's such a fine line between making sure the children understand the truth of the situation and not being vindictive. Yeah, that's a good point, and I think that sometimes who doesn't want to be mad at the abuser and kind of and, like you said before, throw them under the bus and kind of, and, like you said before, throw them under the bus, right, and that's, I think, the strength and the security is being able to say here's what's happened, here's where we are, and being able to make that, of course, age appropriate to the children. Yeah, that's true too and then providing a safe environment for them. Hey, if I could add, jeff and I don't mean to cut- you off.
Speaker 2:I would say I don't mean to cut you off. Obviously I do. I'm literally cutting you off. You still can cut, yeah, I will. But there's also a part there, I think is so, and I like what you're saying about being not vindictive, and I like that. I want to hear what the kid's experience is, because I think sometimes we don't even notice that if I'm going to tell them how, like the truth, which I totally understand, they're still, like you say, age appropriate. They may not even be really aware of some of the things going on. So at that point I might even be projecting things onto them that, hey, champ, I'm sure that you're feeling this way, and all of a sudden then they're like oh, I'm not, but I should I be. So I love starting from a place of man. How are you feeling? What is that like? Because we just have to create that safety.
Speaker 1:And I want to just share, too, that I think that when you're living in a home like that, they feel like it's normal. They may have all this anxiety and all this stuff going on, but they don't know that it's not normal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause they've grown up like that. They've grown up with all these different things, and so they. How would they know different? But the one thing that I also wanted to add, or ask this question, and that is what do you do when the spouse that is abusive is sharing all these things about the other person? Because they're trying to make them look good, you know, and so they're filling their little?
Speaker 1:narcissism style yeah they're filling their little brains with all this because they want to deflect their own behavior on to you know, definitely don't want to have you know, reflect on them and we get this all the time in our group is you know, this is what? This is what's happening. This is what he's saying to my kids. What do I do? How do I handle this? What do I say?
Speaker 2:That's interesting too, tricia. It's like and it's so easy for me to say this, and I always, I do always it's not, it isn't always statement all or nothing. I know that it can sound easy for me to say and it can sound dismissive, but life is this long game and those are in those moments we want to deal with it, we want to feel better about it now, we want to get rid of our anxiety now. And so this is where I do say emotional consistency becomes so important, because the narcissistic person, the abuser, they are going to lack emotional consistency. And so it is going to be hard in some moments when the kid is going to buy into the narcissistic, let's say, dad's narrative, and so in that moment it's hard. The work, the differentiation work in the the abused partner becomes being able to to sit with their own discomfort, because it's easy for them to not want to now vindictively throw that partner under the bus and in that sense he has now power over her through the kid. And so, right, I want to be able to provide that space, because over time, you know, by their fruits you shall know them, kind of a thing, and I know that now, from doing this long enough that it is.
Speaker 2:Somebody said the other day and I like it it's so cookie cutter that he is going to say things to make her look bad, but if she continues to show up they will eventually learn she is not bad.
Speaker 2:And so then, and so that's, that's the long game. And then this is where I think why, when people separate from when they're in abusive or emotionally neglectful relationships, why it has a net positive effect. Because when they're, the mom is in the relationship with that abuser and she's still trying to manage his emotions and buffer for the kids and the kids are trying to read the room and see what version of dad we're getting today that when they eventually separate over time, when she is with the kids, they are going to have the chance to have a secure attachment. They're going to feel like that she gets to be curious, she's not trying to manage the husband's emotions, and so they're going to start to feel because the kid gets their sense of self from external validation. So they'll get a real connection with her because now she can be curious, she can validate their feelings and she can be there for them and be her best self. And they're going to go meet with dad whenever, and dad's still going to be something different.
Speaker 2:Yes, feel exactly so. Now they're going to realize oh, dad is the one now that's like manipulative Dad is the one that is diffusing his, his anger, his frustration. Sometimes he's going to be Disneyland dad. Sometimes he's going to say she just wants all my money sometime. So they're learning now. I almost think that now talk about that polarity. Now they get to see truly what a real attachment looks like and what a surface level one looks like. But it's the long game and that can be really frustrating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, that's so good. Thank you for sharing that, and I'm glad that that question came up, because we get that all the time in our group. Dr Jeff, from a medical standpoint, we know that living in chronic fear takes a huge toll on the body. What are some of the physical effects of prolonged stress and trauma, especially in children?
Speaker 3:Oh boy, big question when this kind of trauma in children happens.
Speaker 3:First of all, their level of cortisol is elevated on an ongoing basis, so they're in fight or flight or fawn or freeze more often than not, and so they don't do a very good job of coping with life in general.
Speaker 3:They're often having trouble in school, they act out in ways that they don't even understand, and because children, especially in the younger age groups, they're really not that good at understanding their own feelings, especially in the younger age groups, they're really not that good at understanding their own feelings, and so when you say what's wrong, they go I don't know, I'm just mad, you know.
Speaker 3:Or they don't even have a clue of why they're acting the way they are. So the way through that is first of all to try and get them out of the situations that are causing this ongoing fear and problem, and that's sometimes hard for the abused spouse to provide. Often the abuser is the this is a typical, but it's not always this way but it's typically the male that's the abuser and it's the female who's being abused, and also the male is often the breadwinner. So they have a difficult time extracting themselves away from being provided for and their children to these abusers because they're afraid of losing the financial support that they're getting. So getting to the place where they can provide a safe environment is really the only way that they can change this direction for their children, and there are lots and lots of resources for that.
Speaker 1:And we'll talk about some of those too.
Speaker 3:Okay, so there are resources, but it's to make that change. With, especially, the threat of violence, that is a very difficult thing for the person who's being abused to walk through. And those children? Now what other things happen to those kids? They tend to be poor performers in school to maintain relationships with their friends because they are acting out in ways that other friends that have normal attachment even, or even some other different attachment styles. They just can't put up with these poor kids and so they need, like Tony said before, professional help, and it's going to be the long game, but the first course and the first step is safety.
Speaker 1:Well, and I'm just going to add to that, going back to the first story, with Celestia and her family, she had a restraining order and I guess that day, the day before so, the husband came in on a flight evening flight or nine o'clock at night and then this event happened at 1 am. But what was interesting is there was a car that. So the neighbors all knew about this restraining order and were protecting her too, and very aware of everything going on.
Speaker 1:But there was a car that had pulled up and so they called the police that day, just hours before so that's what's so heartbreaking is, the police actually were there that day and uh, so people were trying to watch over her and help her, and so that was just still so sad. What was?
Speaker 2:that. Well, what's so difficult about this is and I had even written a note that says you never think that this will happen to you unless it does but then and the but. I'm speaking out of both sides of my mouth on this as well, because the fear of this, like the, the things that don't happen very often can also keep someone from doing things like trying to get help, because they're so worried that it will trigger the person to do something. So I, it, just I. My heart goes out to the yeah buts. You can, yeah, but anything. Here it's almost like, well, yeah, but if I do the restraining order, then he's going to lose his mind, because I've read this story but I've also worked with plenty, plenty of people that get a restraining order and it works.
Speaker 2:It does I mean the majority of people it works. But then you'll hear one of these and then I I always feel bad where somebody will say, yeah, but I read one time that, and then it's, and then it's sound. That's where it just gets out in the weeds. Because then I'm now saying I've never been you. You know I've. I've got my experience with other people that are in similar situations but different, where it's worked. But there is the chance that you know there is Dateline NBC for Pete's sake, and that you know that stuff, their stories and every and so it's so hard. And then the person that is navigating it, like Donna, is where I'm going to say their emotional baseline is fairly low, dr Jeff, their cortisol levels are high. And so I think, going back to this long game I was thinking about I don't know what year it was, probably in the 80s, 90s the Julia Roberts movie Sleeping with the Enemy. Do you guys remember that? Are we of age?
Speaker 3:I think I remember that, yes.
Speaker 2:And it probably is completely different. It was probably a rom-com. I know it wasn't that, but I was going to say I'd probably forgotten truly and confabulated the story. But it was like she had just plotted for so long what her escape would look like. And I've thought about that many times where when I'm working with somebody and they feel trapped, like Dr Jeff saying, when it's the breadwinner and they feel financially stuck and I mean I've had people that have it's been years where they've just had to start thinking and dreaming and hoping and they've started to saving money and dreaming and hoping and they've started to saving money.
Speaker 1:Yes, going back to school online.
Speaker 2:I've had somebody. I had somebody sneak an online degree for three years, you know, and their, their spouse didn't know, I mean. So there's so many ways to to raise that baseline, even when you're going through a lot of things. And that's one of the most difficult things, cause I go back to my beloved acceptance and commitment therapy, where it's the first time you're being you going through life in that moment, with all the things you're going through, so it could look a lot of different ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you for sharing that, those comments, tony. I have another question. So many parents worry that their children will carry these patterns into adulthood. What steps can Donna take to help her children break the cycle and develop healthy relationships?
Speaker 2:finding group or community, whether it's through sports or theater or you know, finding a real sense of purpose. Because I think, yeah, what Dr Jeff's talking about is that they typically do start to isolate or do worse in school or feel like what's wrong with them or then turn down healthy coping mechanisms. So this is where I think that just helping somebody find community is a really good idea. A church group or you know something where you can really get a kid involved, where they aren't just in their head and isolating and in their room. You know that sort of thing can be a real big step. Because a lot of times even I used to do more teenager therapy. I really don't do much of that anymore, but it's fascinating because even teenager therapy, a parent is going to send a kid to therapy and say and basically and basically with this thought of can you fix him?
Speaker 1:Fix him.
Speaker 2:And then I know teenager therapy is a long game because the teenager isn't the one typically that says, hey, I think I want to go talk to some bald old man about my problems that I've never even know that they exist. But then if they go and it's regular and it's consistent, a good therapist or coach who knows the world of the teenager is going to in essence acknowledge I know that you don't necessarily want to be here, but since we're here, let's play some games. Let me ask you questions. Help me understand high school these days and it becomes a rapport building concept. So then when the kid eventually does feel safe, now they may actually say, hey, I think I'm curious what you have an opinion on. I'm probably not going to do it, but you know, and that's such a long game and I've had really successful stories with that, but I'm talking it's years, you know, down the road, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:So, Tony, what age could you recommend for children that are in these situations? How young can you have a child in therapy?
Speaker 2:So so this is. I will say this is not. I don't know this area, so I refer. Matter of fact, I know someone. I think we should have come on here and talk to an amazing child therapist who also has a really fascinating backstory. What's her?
Speaker 2:name Her name is Jamie Miller. She's written a book about parenting, she's been on the View she's she's the most humble person in the world, but she she's my go-to for kid therapy and because play therapy is such a thing, so you can get a kid into therapy. But what therapy looks like is so different and what is fascinating is okay, quick trip down memory lane when you get out of grad school you have to take a practicum course, basically going and doing volunteer therapy at a nonprofit and, shockingly, not knowing my ADHD at the time, I put that off. So then most of the practicum sites were taken, so I ended up doing mine with. The company was called, or the group was called the Child Abuse Prevention Council, and so then I was doing kid therapy with people that were mandated to be there. So I got really good at Jenga and other board games, but because when you're playing games the kids can express themselves.
Speaker 2:But I also learned of some things like sand tray therapy, and I remember thinking I just didn't get it until you were finally playing in a sand tray with a kid who is now getting the army men and just aggressively fighting with each one of them or having them do things that like okay, why would a kid know that that's what you know? Or having them do things that like okay, why would a kid know that that's what you know? Barbie and Ken could do, if you know what I mean. Yeah, but it's like it finally made sense of where, oh, play therapy they, if they didn't know, if they didn't hear things, if they didn't see things, then they wouldn't have their, their toys acting out these things. So it just became fascinating.
Speaker 2:But as soon as I was done with my practicum, I realized, and I felt bad at the time oh, I don't, I'm not a good kid therapist because I kept wanting to win at Jenga, you know, all of a sudden I'm like, okay, like I, yeah, anyway, nothing but jokes there. But I think it's important because you can get a kid into therapy. But it's not talk therapy and it is play therapy or art therapy or, and those things are significant. But I just don't know.
Speaker 1:Animal therapy yeah, good for children.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to get an equine therapist on my virtual couch podcast because I had a client that they were doing equine therapy and it was fascinating because you can't gaslight a horse, apparently, and they're going to feel your energy and vibe and so that's a really neat thing too. So, yeah, there's a lot of different ways to do therapy. What is it Getting a kid into dance, I mean like movement and things like that. So I just think there's a lot of different ways to just get a kid involved so they'll start to feel and interact and do.
Speaker 1:And I think feeling is so key because so often they just bottle those things up because they feel shame.
Speaker 3:I think boys especially need to have something where they're physical, yes, where there's physical movement, where they're taking a bat and hitting a ball or they're up against each other getting tackled or they're tackling someone and there's a lot of aggression that can be taken out in positive ways, that way that I think that is super helpful. But getting it, you know you have to match the kid with the right activity and some kids, you know they may be, they really need to have something where they're hitting something but yet they're so little that they get creamed every time they go to football.
Speaker 2:So you know there's just… oh, martial arts with kids. I know there's some studies out there.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, yeah, because a lot of martial arts. There isn't a lot of hitting of each other, there's a lot of discipline and understanding. That's a really good one, and understanding that's a really good one, I think martial arts is. You know, we've got some experience with Taekwondo in our family and it's been incredibly helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely I'd love to Dr Jeff. Do you have a gi that you wear?
Speaker 3:No, but my son who had yeah.
Speaker 2:I want to say something very quickly too, before I forget. This one is and I feel bad saying this next part because the person in Donna's situation has. I can't imagine all the emotions that she's dealing with as well, but it's hard because to not it's hard to keep your your stuff together all the time around your kids, but how important that is to make sure you have an outlet for a counseling group, that sort of thing. Because while we want to show our kids that emotions are good and that's where I go back to secure attachment, I want to, I want them to see a healthy dose of, you know, parental emotion. But there's also a version of that where the parent is so distraught that then the kid feels like they have to manage the parents' emotions. Oh yeah, and I don't want that.
Speaker 2:That happens a lot, yeah, parents emotions, oh yeah, and and I and I don't want that that happens a lot. Right, yeah to for donna, because I can't, I cannot imagine what she's going through, like I, for I literally can't, and so I it's so easy for me to say so. You need to make sure you do it this way, and I remember you know not to go on. But when my I had a daughter almost dying a car wreck and I had always said oh, you, you know, you acknowledge your emotions and you sit with them and you invite them to come with you, and I think I've shared on here before. Then, after this happened, and the third day in a row, where I'm sobbing and eating whole bags of Reese's peanut butter cups, I'm thinking, oh, I think I need to go back and apologize to the people that I'm saying, oh, just take the emotions in and invite them with you where it's like I don't want to get out of bed, and so I know that it's. We never know how it's going to look until we're there.
Speaker 1:All right. So Dawn also shares that she struggles with feelings of guilt and even empathy toward her ex, despite everything she and the kids have been through. Tony, why do people often struggle with guilt and how can she begin to release those feelings?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the back to that pathological kindness, because you know, this is where Ross Rosenberg calls it the human magnet syndrome that these relationships are often breakup resistant and the person that is typically the one that finally breaks up with or calls it is that it has to almost always be the pathologically kind. So, and that's where you can see how long that's going to take for that person who is kind to a fault to finally say I am I'm going to say, quote, giving up on this person. And I think that's one of the hard things and that's why the whole concept of a trauma bond is so fascinating. It's intermittent reinforcement that the person that is providing you with the punishment also does provide you with the reward. So when you're doing therapy with somebody that's in the middle of a trauma bond and you finally they admit that this is what he does and this is how I feel, and you start to validate that, you watch quickly as they're like, I mean, but it's not all bad, I mean he's good too, I mean, and you watch that yo-yo.
Speaker 1:They feel guilty, they do.
Speaker 2:They feel guilty of saying because it's like, oh, but I feel bad saying that and that's where it's like, that's where the work needs to start. So, acceptance, of course she's going to feel guilty and empathetic, and this is that whole object relations. She can view this entire situation, the whole object of. Isn't that fascinating that I can be angry, I can be sad, I can also have hope, I can think it's me, I can think it's him. It's not all or nothing, you know, it's not black or white. And emotional maturity is being able to let all of those emotions in and then being able to observe them.
Speaker 2:At what times is it that I feel like I can't, like I just, oh, I want to reach out to him, cause that's the part where back to the human magnet syndrome, and Ross Rosenberg talks about pathological loneliness.
Speaker 2:So when somebody who has been so used to interacting with this other human, be it good or bad, to know that they exist, then all of a sudden, when they don't have that interaction, there's a void left there and that that leads to this pathological loneliness.
Speaker 2:And too often, you know, you return back to your drug of choice, which is narcissistic, lover, and then the cycle repeats. And so just being able to acknowledge that, oh, this, I am feeling it right now, or I am wanting to text him. I often have clients that are experiencing a trauma bond if they can text me, and every now and again when one does, and especially if I'm not like I forget that I suggested that I get a text from you know, a client. She's like I just miss you so bad and I'm like, oh, this is, this is kind of weird, you know they're. They're like oh wait, no, she's, that's what she wants to text the you know, the, the ex, you know, because when she's feeling lonely now and there's so many things going on here, tricia, she's also projecting onto him that well, he then says right.
Speaker 2:But now all of a sudden, oh here she is and he's like oh, I know what to do with this. I can manipulate her to make me feel better, to take the one up position, and that's why it becomes so important to go no contact or you know to, to block people that are abusive. But then we go back to the whole problem here. But that person that is being asked to block them, well, I feel bad because I know he will be sad if he finds out he's blocked. No, no, he's not thinking about you.
Speaker 1:And that feels bad to say, but it's more. The reality From the bond is so subdued, it's so hard.
Speaker 2:Oh so, yeah. So accepting the fact that she's having all those feelings, all those emotions, is one of the first steps, and to be able to recognize the patterns. When do I feel this way? A lot of women that I work with, it's big on the weekends or the evenings when they are more alone, and so then you can start to take action to make sure on. You know, I've got a lady right now. Sunday afternoons are the worst, and so now she's trying to find ways to interact with people and communicate with friends and be proactive.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it wasn't part of Donna's question, wasn't it? How to help her current relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's the next question that I have actually, oh sorry. I always get ahead of things.
Speaker 3:I was just thinking because you said that part.
Speaker 1:That is so good, but before I get to that one, I have two more questions. This is for Jeff, and it's one of the biggest challenges after leaving an abusive relationship is rebuilding a sense of safety, not just emotionally, but practically as well. Dr Jeff, what would you recommend to Donna, who's still dealing with the threat of her ex and the fear that he could harm her or her children?
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, the fear that he could harm her or her children. Oh gosh. The hard part about this is that she still, as I recall she's still sharing or has some contact with her children, and he has the children most of the time, so he's got a lever over her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he tricked her into signing something and so he does have custody and she's desperately trying to get those children back.
Speaker 3:Okay. So this puts an incredible twist on how to make this thing work, because the children are the lever, they are the tool that he's using against her, and that is, I think, a typical tool, for the abuser is to use the children against the person who's abused. And, if you can, the good thing to do in my mind is to get them away from the abuser and to block that even for a time, because sometimes the best thing you can do is separate from that and allow some normalcy to happen. That isn't always easy to do, nor is it always possible to do, but having some distance there, I think, is probably the first step besides recognizing that there's a problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, that was excellent and I full-heartedly agree with everything that you's a problem. Yeah, thank you, that was excellent and I full heartedly agree with everything that you both are sharing. So this is our last question. Donna is now in a serious relationship, but her partner's struggling to understand the weight of what she's been through, tony. How can she help him navigate and support her healing without it overwhelming the relationship?
Speaker 2:Great question and normal, very normal, and this is where she needs to have the courage to be known. So oftentimes I think someone in her situation worries that if I express these things then he will think I am crazy. But in a healthy relationship she needs to give him the this will sound like I'm being trying to be funny relationship. She needs to give him the this will sound like I'm being trying to be funny, but she needs to give him the opportunity to think that she is crazy, because if it's a healthy relationship, he will not think that. He will be grateful that she's opening up and I loved with Tiffany the interview we did.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Right that we talked a little bit about this, of where you have to be able to express yourself, to give that person the opportunity to know you, and if you do express yourself and they don't take that well, that that is the red flag. So it will also help you really understand the relationship and this relationship.
Speaker 1:I think he's scared. I think he's scared of what he's seen and the potential. I think he has children too.
Speaker 2:And that's a different aspect too. So I mean, if there's the chance where she's holding back of how she's feeling, that's one thing, but if the situation is scary, then there is an acceptance of that situation is scary, then there is an acceptance of that, and that's. That can be really difficult because you know he has a right to feel all the way the feelings he does as well. I guess I was looking at that as one of these where she's not right she's, she's holding back and assuming when he does something.
Speaker 1:I think she's sharing everything. I think he's afraid of the whole situation and the ex coming into, creating harm, creating issues.
Speaker 2:And I hear that I've worked with that and there's just so many variables. This is sometimes where I know that people are looking to the I want to air quote experts for answers and I know that we can provide just some answers to the best that we know how. But I hate this as a cop out. But every situation has so many different variables that I have no idea what you know, what that feels like to be him, or, or what what his tolerance is to stress, or what he's protecting his kids. Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and he loves her and yeah, it's very convoluted, I think.
Speaker 2:So I know that's not. I don't have a good answer for that, because then I want to do what most therapists do and say they must go to therapy, and then that's the way to just.
Speaker 1:Everyone needs therapy Right. Push that off or coaching or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's hard, though that's really hard and they need to go to the doctor too there you go?
Speaker 1:Everyone needs a doctor. Oh, yes, okay. So, as we conclude, I want to express our deepest gratitude to Donna for her insightful question. Your courage in sharing your experiences not only aid your healing journey, but also resonate with many of our listeners who may be facing similar challenges, unfortunately. We also want to extend our deepest, heartfelt condolences to the family of Celestia Marie Contensi, whose tragic loss underscores the profound impact of domestic violence. For those wishing to support her for surviving children during this difficult time, a GoFundMe has been established. As close family members will be raising these beautiful children. We'll also include that in the link in our show notes for anyone interested in contributing. And remember, if you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse or violence of any sort, resources are available, such as the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE. Again, it's 1-800-799-SAFE.
Speaker 3:Thank you, dr. Jeff, and you are not alone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're not alone. There's so many people, there's a lot of resources out there. That is the first thing that just came up when I searched that. So thank you, dr Jeff and Tony, for your invaluable insights today and, to our listeners, thank you for being here and supporting our show. So please subscribe, leave us a review and share this podcast with anyone who might benefit from this very difficult topic. We'd love to hear your questions on mental health, medicine, nutrition and relationships. Please send them to Trisha Jameson coaching at gmailcom. We're here to support you and answer any questions you may have, and I'd like to leave you with this. Remember you are not alone, just like Dr Jeff said, and help is available. Stay safe, take care and we'll see you next time. Goodbye everyone.
Speaker 2:Bye everyone. Thank you everybody.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files, delighted to share today's gems of wisdom with you. Your questions light up our show, fueling the engaging dialogues. I'll catch you on the next episode.
