The Q&A Files
The Q&A Files drops A Wellness Explosion
💥 BOOM! Attention Wellness Warriors. The game changer you have been waiting for is finally here. Say hello to “The Q&A Files,” where wellness meets revolution and your questions lead to new discoveries. Spearheaded by Trisha Jamison, your host, a Board Certified Functional Nutritionist. Cohost Dr. Jeff Jamison, a Board Certified Family Physician, and featured guest, Tony Overbay, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. This podcast blends three diverse perspectives to tackle your questions on health, nutrition, medicine, mental wellness, and relationships. Dive into a world of expert insights and actionable advice, all sparked by your curiosity. Tune in, ignite your wellness journey, and join the Wellness Warrior community.
The Q&A Files
62. Gaslight, Camera, Action! Spotting Fallacies Before They Fool You
Have you ever walked away from a conversation feeling confused, defensive, and somehow at fault for something you didn't do? That's the disorienting power of logical fallacies – deceptive reasoning patterns that toxic partners deploy to maintain control and avoid accountability.
In this revealing episode, Tony Overbay and I decode the manipulative tactics that can make you question your own reality. We break down red herrings (distracting with irrelevant topics), straw man arguments (misrepresenting your position), whataboutisms (deflecting blame), and ad hominem attacks (targeting your character instead of addressing the issue).
What makes this conversation so powerful is our exploration of why emotionally immature individuals rely on these tactics. For many, it's not calculated malice but a desperate attempt to maintain a "one-up" position when they lack a solid sense of self. Understanding this doesn't excuse the behavior, but it helps explain why accountability feels so threatening to them and why they'll fight so hard to avoid it.
The most valuable takeaway? Practical strategies for maintaining your clarity when conversations twist. By pausing before responding, naming the tactic mentally, and remembering that you don't have to engage with every argument, you can protect your emotional well-being. We discuss how journaling creates a record that validates your experience when gaslighting makes you doubt yourself.
For the "pathologically kind" person caught in these dynamics, recognizing these patterns can feel uncomfortable – once you see them, you can't unsee them. But this awareness is the first step toward reclaiming your power and creating healthier relationships built on genuine communication rather than manipulation.
Ready to stand firmly in your truth? Listen now and discover how understanding logical fallacies can transform how you navigate difficult conversations and protect your emotional sovereignty.
Touch a nerve? Let us know, and leave a rating and a response. Questions? Send to us directly to trishajamisoncoaching@gmail.com. We can't wait to put YOUR question on The Q&A Files!
Hello and welcome to the Q&A File, the ultimate health and wellness playground. I'm your host, tricia Jamieson, a board-certified functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner, ready to lead you through a world of health discoveries. Here we dive into a tapestry of disease prevention, to nutrition, exercise, mental health and building strong relationships, all spiced with diverse perspectives. It's not just a podcast, it's a celebration of health, packed with insights and a twist of fun. Welcome aboard the Q&A Files, where your questions ignite our vibrant discussions and lead to a brighter you. Welcome, friends, to another episode of the Q&A Files. I'm Tricia Jamieson, your host, a functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner and a life coach, and I'm here with our insightful Tony Overbay, a licensed marriage and family therapist. Tony, it's always so great to have you on our show.
Speaker 2:It is so good to be here, and if there was ever a time to go watch video clips of us. I am returning from spinal surgery and I have the world's greatest scar on my neck. Do you see that?
Speaker 1:Yes, it is pretty impressive. I could see it right to the screen.
Speaker 2:I'm taking notes. For any. I need a good story. I mean, I got involved in knife fight, the knife was stuck in my neck, I saved a lady and some puppies. But I don't have the whole story down, so I am taking suggestions for the narrative.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, we'll be thinking of them, and I know that. So Jeff isn't here with us today. He's at a tennis tournament with our son, which I'll be joining them in a little bit. But I know that if he was here he'd be wanting to ask you all sorts of medical questions, so I'm glad.
Speaker 2:We'll save that for another time, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely, we really will Cause without him here.
Speaker 2:Dr Jeff was one of the. He was literally the first person that called it for what it was when he saw my MRI and said here's what you're going to need to do. And it did and it all went great. And he's checked up on me pretty much daily, so I really appreciate him. That's been nice.
Speaker 1:He's pretty fantastic, so I love that. Besides your recovery going well, pretty well, your surgery went well as to be expected. Do you have any other celebrations you'd like to share those?
Speaker 2:are some pretty decent celebrations there.
Speaker 2:I know it's funny, but literally last night my daughter Mackie, who she and I do a podcast called the Mind, the Mirror and Me, which I think is beautiful there's probably 30 or so episodes of that out there and she'll join me on my lives on TikTok or Instagram to do relationship questions. But she already is a licensed cosmetologist. But when we moved to Arizona she wanted a fresh start on everything. She'd had autoimmune disease detected. She lost 70 pounds just through hard work, diet and exercise, felt amazing and said all right, part of this new journey is, I want to do something new. And she went to esthetician school and she graduated last night. So we had the esthetician school graduation last night. She's already got a job and uh and so and she's given me, she's given me many, many facials and skin routines along the way, so I could not be happier.
Speaker 1:So that is that is a genuine celebration. That is exciting. Well, if we ever come down that way, we'll have to make an appointment with her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how about you? Okay, tricia celebrations.
Speaker 1:Yes, my celebration is. I'm heading to Utah next week to see my grandchildren and our kids, and I'm taking two grandchildren that are in Yakima, which is about three and a half hours from here, with me, and so they're going to go see cousins for the week, and then I'll be back a week later. So, I'm super excited. I haven't seen these babies and our grandkids for over two months, and that's been a long time, so this Annie loves grandchildren, so I'm excited. But I want to follow up with you, tony. How's your diet going?
Speaker 2:Not good. Yeah, not good at all. Okay, because he promised, so wait a second.
Speaker 1:Yes, so on a previous episode he promised that he was going to change his diet. So we did a podcast on processed foods and ADHD and how it impacts the brain and the gut, and so he was pretty excited to make some changes. So I had to just check up and see where you did. That's why I sent you those episodes.
Speaker 2:I know he literally sent me those. So, yeah, but or yes, anne, or I really am In that moment. Here's the funny story I was going to say so actually this week has been really good because because everything I'd read about this ACDF surgery said that after they move your esophagus over for a couple hours, you're going to have this I think it's called dysplasia, which is an incredible sore throat. For two or three weeks You're going to be on liquid diet, soft diet, and I could not find anybody that didn't lose 10 or 15 pounds. So in the three months or so leading up to surgery, right Then three months or so leading up to surgery, it hurt so bad that I, you know, and you and I traded a couple of texts where I was going to exercise. Anyway, my doctor said it's not like you're going to hurt yourself worse, but you're going to deal with the pain, and I thought I'm okay with that. So I did as much as I could and it did hurt a lot, and so then I really would back off and I was drowning my sorrows in food. But it was also this immature response of, yeah, but I'm going to lose 10 or 15 pounds once, once I have surgery.
Speaker 2:So I wake up from surgery, yeah, it's the most incredible sore throat ever, and my first couple of meals were a chocolate shake and some mac and cheese and mashed potatoes. But by the evening in the hospital then I was like it's not so bad, and so then I ate everything, and I ate everything that entire weekend. So not only had I already put on the 10 or 12 pounds that I had planned on losing, but then it turned on, oh, I'm sure. But then it turned on, oh, I have Tricia, I have. And I mean literally. When I got on the scale of the morning of surgery, I thought, okay, this is wrong. And then she bumped it from pounds to kilos and I was like, thank you, cause that that looks a little more palatable.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, yeah, but so it's I. I actually can see it in your right earlobe. You're right, I can see that you have put on weight.
Speaker 2:Okay, don't make me stand up and show love handles, because this is bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, now.
Speaker 2:I'm on it Now. I'm on it.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, like I said, I say those two episodes so you can just have a reminder of the things that you wanted to change.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I appreciate the reminder.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's dive into today's question and it comes from a wonderful person. Her name is Bella and she's a member of our group and it's very powerful. So we've mentioned several times before that Tony and I teach in a group that he put together and they are just basically from narcissistic partners. And then they come into this private group that we support and Tony and I teach and Tony's amazing and he's a lifesaver to so many of these women?
Speaker 1:All right, this is her question. She says I've started noticing that when I make choices to protect myself, like dating someone new or creating distance from my ex, he twists the conversation to make it seem like I'm the problem. He brings up my actions to distract from his past abuse, things like lying, cheating and manipulation. I've come to realize he's using logical fallacies like the red herring and straw man to shift blame and avoid accountability. Which fallacies do victims often overlook, and how can understanding these fallacies help individuals recognize manipulation and maintain their own emotional safety and clarity? So first of all, Bella, thank you for this question and for your courage to share, and it's so well articulated and incredibly insightful. So let's start from the top. So for those of you potentially hearing these terms for the first time and wondering what a fallacy is, let's start there. So I'm just gonna share real quick and then I'm gonna ask Tony a ton of questions.
Speaker 1:But a fallacy is a mistaken belief or a flawed way of thinking that leads to invalid or a misleading argument. In conversations, a fallacy often sounds logical or persuasive on the surface, but when you look closer it's built on faulty reasoning, distraction or emotional manipulation. Fallacies derail honest communication and make it hard to resolve conflict, especially in emotionally charged relationships. So, Tony, as we're talking about fallacies today and I know they can sound like something you'd hear in a debate class, but these show up in everyday arguments, yeah, especially in unhealthy dynamics Can you explain why learning about fallacies matters in real life communication and how they show up in our relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is, and thank you, bella. It's such a good question because there's so much that we've led up to in previous episodes about what do we do with our discomfort, or how do we get out of our discomfort, or how do we shift the blame onto someone else so that we don't have to deal with our own garbage that we bring into a relationship. And so the dynamic that we're talking about now is you've got and I refer, I call them the pathologically kind, the person who is going to go overboard, maybe to their detriment, giving someone the benefit of the doubt, or being kind, or being willing to go work on whatever it is. So let's just say, for simplicity's sake, the narcissist will say, well, you know, that's not even true, or will you do this too? Or, but they can, just they can send the pathologically kind person on a goose chase. That has nothing to do with what the pathologically kind person is saying or how they're showing up in their life, but that pathologically kind person is going to feel like, well, I can, I can show them that they're not, that they're not accurate, or I can prove to them that they don't really understand and that I'm not the person they think I am, so I'll go do all the work. So they might even say well, I don't even like the way that you say that and your tone is off. I hear that one so often. So I've got somebody coming into my office working on their tone when I know that their tone is fine.
Speaker 2:But all that that narcissistic person has to do is say, well, geez, if you wouldn't keep yelling at me then I wouldn't act this way. And the pathologically kind person's thinking I don't yell, I mean, I'm not a yeller, is this yelling? Okay, I'll go, I'll start recording myself, I'll start, I'll work on it, I'll figure it out, because that pathologically kind person is just, they're willing to give that narcissistic person such a benefit of the doubt that then that narcissist gets out of whatever their discomfort is by just a simple phrase, misdirection, turning it back on them, arguing something else. And then what happens there is that narcissist now feels better and they are out of that moment and they can move on. And that pathologically kind person is going to go do the work to figure out is there truth in what that person said. And then, once I show up and say, okay, I did the work. In essence, is there truth in what that person said, and then once I show up and say, okay, I did the work, in essence, now we should be good. But then it's another thing and another thing. I could keep going.
Speaker 2:This is such a yeah, it's such a powerful thing, because I think the part that I think I'm trying to say over and over again Tricia, because I see this every day in my practice and I've even felt it before when I felt more insecure about myself is somebody just had to say something Well, I think you're this and I'm like, oh man, am I? Okay? Well, I'll go read all the books about that and I'll go listen to all the podcasts about that. I don't think that's what I'm doing or who I am. I'll spend weeks or months on whatever it is this person just threw out at me, and then I'll come back with the data, the data. Oh, I don't think I am, and they're like I think you still are like, oh man, what am I missing? So then I'll waste time even trying to figure out if this person is right, when all they're doing is is pushing something back onto me.
Speaker 1:Right, well, and they weaponize these communications and like instead of resolving conflict or connecting with empathy, yep, the one partner uses these tactics to deflect, to blame and, just like you just mentioned, to confuse the other person, and they even make them feel like they are the problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so, and what can I say on that?
Speaker 2:Note too that what is so frustrating about it is that this is why I talk about the concept of an attack surface so often is that the kind person, let's say that they divorce their narcissistic partner Now, they would love nothing more than to have a decent relationship with them because we have kids together or those sort of things. But then any interaction and I'm not a big all or nothing person, but when the person is truly, truly immature, narcissistic any interaction is providing them with an attack surface, even if you say, hey, I'm so glad we're getting along well now. This is one that came up in an office this week. Then the narcissistic partner was saying, well, if we can do it now, we could have done it then. So I don't know why you had to blow up the whole family, you know. And so then the person felt horrible and they're calling me for an emergency session, saying, oh my gosh, did I do the wrong thing? And it's like man, that person still has that control over the kind person.
Speaker 1:So any, it's almost and they weren't even together.
Speaker 2:No, they were, they were, they were together. They just had a decent co-parenting interaction. But she had she had been fairly no contact for quite some time.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's what I meant. So they're divorced?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yeah they're divorced, and so what happens, though, is then she feels better. Her central nervous system is calm, she has a better interaction with her kids. She's realizing oh my gosh, I should have done this so much sooner, which then now she feels like oh you know what? I can see him as a human, and he's the father of my children, and so I think I do want to be nicer to him.
Speaker 1:But then the second, she interacts and it's, it's like that narcissistic supply, it's it gives him the fuel Right. And I think also, when logical fallacies become the norm, that they erode the trust that you have and they make you question your own reality, which we're going to talk about here in a minute too, and, and and, over time you might stop speaking up altogether, not because, you don't have a voice, but because every time you try the conversation gets twisted and then you get more and more confused.
Speaker 2:And then one thing I love that you, the way you put that.
Speaker 2:It reminds me of kind of going back to the surgery. The second I woke up, my pain in my back and arm was gone, and what was so wild was and I even thought about this before I recorded a video on the whole process I put on my YouTube channel. But I even thought about this before I recorded a video on the whole process I put on my YouTube channel, but I recorded right before I was going in that, hey, I am constantly feeling pain here my back, my neck, my arm and I just I thought I am going to forget what that was like as soon as it's gone and I have. But when I was going through that for three or four months, I could not believe how it was always there. The pain was always in my head, and so if I wasn't trying to be truly present in a moment, my brain reverted back to pain. What if this pain never goes away? What should I do about the pain? Is this what other people feel with pain?
Speaker 1:And I think that often, when the and it's overwhelming.
Speaker 2:It is, and that's why I talk about a waste of emotional calories, truly. And so when the narcissist uses these logical fallacies to the pathologically kind, they still control the pathologically kind person, because now they're going off and instead of being present and thinking about you know the learning Portuguese, or writing the next great novel, or being present with their kids, they're thinking how okay, is there truth in that what they said? And they ruminate and they worry, and then they go back and they try to have more information and that doesn't go well, and so they're gonna listen to a podcast and they're gonna it. Just it consumes them and they don't recognize that those are all emotional calories being spent on something other than what could really help them grow or develop a stronger sense of self.
Speaker 1:Exactly so. I really appreciate that, and I know that recognizing these fallacies is definitely the first step forward in protecting their emotional clarity and so they can learn how to stand in their truth. Yeah, so I want to break down some of the things that Bella mentioned.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's start with the red herring.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:The definition of the red herring. Do you know what that is? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Uh, I mean, or it's, it's somebody, just like the red herring, is this? It's a? It's some irrelevant thing, a relevant topic, or it's anything that will distract you from the main issue, and it's kind of like a form of misdirection. And I like that's the term you may be already know this comes from the it's. The red herring is apparently a very strong smelling fish and it will distract hounds off of a trail when they're hunting, right.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, well, and it's one of the things that I share with my clients. So I mean, it's a completely unrelated topic to distract the issue at hand and like I'll use an example of if you say it hurt me when you lied, then they will respond well, you never cook dinner anymore. Totally. It's like so completely changes the whole subject and puts you on the defensive, making it feel like the issue is somehow your fault now and it's like yeah, I guess I didn't cook dinner last week, right, right, and I mean that's your question.
Speaker 2:Well, and I watch that. I can picture somebody doing that on my couch. And even if the person says, what does that have to do with it? Now it's, I just view the narcissistic or incredibly emotionally mature person. They just need that other person to to interact in order to know that they, they know what to do. Now, once I say that, and once the kind person says, what does that have to do with it?
Speaker 2:It's like, really, you have no idea how the correlation fits between that. That's wild to me, like I can't even. I don't even know if I should even keep talking about this If you can't put those pieces together. I mean, I've seen that happen so often in the couples therapy setting. It's right, and so even if the person becomes differentiated and they don't say anything, if the boundary is when you go off on, you know, use the red herring tactic, then I don't say a word. Then the person is like, well, what do you have to say about that? Oh, nothing. I'm curious about the question, you know. But then the narcissist? So, because you know they're confabulating in real time, they're reactive, they gaslight. Gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism, I mean, it's built into them.
Speaker 2:So, then they'll still beat you at that game.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, oh well, I guess I won't say anything too.
Speaker 2:You know tit for tat, whatever that looks like.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. Okay, yeah, thank you. So let's go to the straw man fallacy.
Speaker 2:Do you want to take that?
Speaker 1:one Sure, okay. So the straw man fallacy is misrepresenting your position, so it's easier to attack, and some of the examples I'll use is I need more communication and they reply. So now I'm a horrible partner who never says anything, right. So it's like what? So it exaggerates, it distorts your point to make it seem unreasonable, which derails what the real conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I find that, like the straw man is in my four pillars my fourth pillar is leaning in, staying present, not adopting a victim mindset that I find the straw man is probably one of the most used tactics of no, you're right, I'm just a horrible person. I don't know what I'm doing. I barely begin to rest all the time Too often.
Speaker 1:I'll put it that way I mean, sometimes I'll hear my children even say that and it's like where did you learn that, do you? I mean, I don't feel like I say that, I don't feel like Jeff is saying that, but it's like somehow you just learn some of these, these tactics, or I don't know if they've, I don't know if it's a human thing, and then it works.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, okay, honestly, the reason I kind of snorted is, I can think of, I think I personally think that that's one of those where it's all of the above but where I'm sure that we all do it. We just aren't really aware of it because that's not our proudest moment. So it's not like I'm remembering the moments where I've just been like okay, well, I guess I'll just work more. I guess you know you guys will. Yeah, no, it's. I mean, I know I've done it many times and maybe not as grandiose ways, but for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the difference is you recognize what you're doing now. Well, I don't know if I did in my 20s or 30s?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. I did it plenty.
Speaker 1:And I appreciate that, and so I'm putting this program together. And we just went through the four damaging behaviors that couples do, and it's gaslighting, manipulating, projecting and emotional immaturity. How could I forget that one?
Speaker 2:This is what we're talking about right now emotional immaturity.
Speaker 1:How could I forget that one? This is what we're talking about right now, and it's just crazy how, going back through those in just detail and in different ways that you know as a child how you grew up your defense mechanisms, you know being in a place where your needs weren't met, so you had to devise a different plan, a different strategy, and so you know, and it worked when you're seven, but now that you're 37, that doesn't, that doesn't work so well.
Speaker 2:And so now, it's funny to say that it unfortunately, though, like this is where somebody will say to me and they'll say I can't keep doing this. But at some point, though, I have to bring some gentle awareness of, well, you can, because you have been, but it's like, but then, when you try to not do it, then that narcissistic person pushes bigger buttons to get you to react or go back into into enmeshment, or back into, you know, alignment or your role. So. So that's one of the hardest parts of that point, and the couples therapy is when somebody says I can't keep doing this.
Speaker 1:It's like, well, you're telling yourself that right now, but really you can because you have and you have right, yeah, yeah, very good, okay, so these have been very helpful and, just like we were just talking about, these happen all the time, sometimes even people that don't have these tendencies. They do it because they are not aware, and I think this is just also bringing awareness to everybody, and I think it's really important. So do you know much about, like the whataboutisms?
Speaker 2:Oh, I do, yeah, I've got it.
Speaker 2:So share that, please. Okay, well, I was going to say there's a, so that one and I want to make sure there's. I shared with Tricia right before we jumped on that I actually this is okay. Here's the true confession is, I might even have in my bag, but I have these logical fallacy cards and it was one of the first things. I one of these things where I looked at them enough on social media that then every every two slides or whatever I was scrolling through was another. They were these different card decks, card packs for different things, and so I bought these ones for logical fallacies and I've always wanted to create content based around these in really short clips. So I'm somewhat obsessed with the logical fallacies and so I have this document going that I've always meant to do an episode on, so I've got a few of these where I've already got some notes. So I want to just own the fact that it might sound a little bit rehearsed, because this is some of the things that I've written out.
Speaker 2:The you too, or what about ism, is. It's a big part of Darvo, which is the deny attack, reverse the victim and offender and where that's where they flip it back on you. Well, you've done things, things too or you're not perfect either, and so it's just. It's one of the and all of these just reek of emotional immaturity Cause it's like, well, I just put it back on you, so now, what are you going to say about that?
Speaker 2:And uh yeah, totally yeah, and and it just and that's why I started when we were talking about this today with it's. It's that part of that. What Ross Rosenberg calls the human magnet syndrome is you've got the pathologically kind person with the narcissist and so it darn near, creates a breakup, resistant relationship, because it's going to take the pathologically kind person to really step out of the dynamic of the relationship. But they spend so much time defending what they need. Not I was going to shoot on them, should not be defending, but they need not be defending because when you really discover your sense of self and what boundaries are, again it's not a. You need to stop doing that, it's a.
Speaker 2:Well, if you're going to go off on a you know off the topic, then then I'm not going to continue the conversation, and so you. That's where you have to set boundaries in order to, in essence, train your emotionally immature or narcissistic fill in the blank partner, kid, entity, boss, statistic. Fill in the blank partner, kid, entity, boss. But if you continue to play into it, then they get that fuel and it will just continue this cycle. And that's part of even what the trauma bond is is that you're still trying to get this person to understand, and so every now and again they'll throw you a bone and say, okay, maybe you're right and oh, that feels better. But then they'll also drive you crazy and send you off trying to figure out what's wrong with me, and it just keeps you in that cycle over and over again.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. One of the examples that I like to use in those is if somebody were to say I felt dismissed when you called or you ignored my call. And they may say well, you ignored my call last week and so it's so easy. And what it does is it avoids accountability, which we're just talking about, by flipping the blame and equalizing the wrongdoing. And even if it's not comparable because what is happening now is what's important, not last week. So if there was a situation last week, he had an opportunity to share or her what was happening, but if they chose not to, but again, that's just one of those.
Speaker 2:Okay, I love that you brought that up, because this is what is fascinating about as much as I love my beloved four pillars that it is interesting because when somebody will say, hey, can I take you on my train of thought when you said this, this is how I felt. I am owning it, that's a me thing. And I'm saying to the other person OK, assuming good intentions can't tell them the wrong questions, stay present. But then when, like this is part of that, it's difficult because there is a real possibility that you weren't aware of something that you did and when it was brought up, it does cause you to think of that also happening with your partner. So there's just a there's a much more mature way to handle that where. That's why I like having such a framework, because I'm going to hear my partner a lot. I want to hear them, I want to hear everything they have to say about it. I want them to hand back over the talking stick when they're done. And hand back over the talking stick when they're done. And now I even want to spend time validating Thank you, and I appreciate you saying that.
Speaker 2:And then here's where the ownership comes in. You know when you say that, first of all, thank you, and it helps me understand your position. Check this out. It makes me now want to say but you did too, cause now we can look at that with curiosity. You know, this becomes a uh instead of a me versus you, it's a us versus a problem concept and so, but you can see where that.
Speaker 2:That can take a lot of self-reflection and introspection to get to the point where I can own up to the fact of like. Okay, first of all, thank you for bringing that to my awareness. I wasn't aware that must be hard. I'm so sorry that you've been going through that, thank you. You know how can I show up different and have to own the fact that, okay, maybe that isn't something I can offer, but I'm glad we're having a conversation. But then I think one of the ways to grow with another human is to be able to then say okay, look at this. I'm wanting to say you too. I'm wanting to say well, I'm wanting to jump in.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I think that can be really powerful.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that that's that's really important, because those are those tendencies that we all have, because we want to deflect, we want to, we want to like hey, you're uncomfortable. Sitting in that discomfort is never comfortable.
Speaker 2:And so, what do you want?
Speaker 1:to do. You want to share that discomfort too, but it's also the fact that just paying attention to the landscape, the timing and even though you know, that's what makes us, those people, more mature in those situations, because you're able to have the discipline to hold off and listen and validate and hear what is uncomfortable for us because we screwed up, and then be able to add maybe another time even that's what I always think of Okay, when we're having a situation, I'll think, oh, I'd love to share what he just did, and I think, okay, first of all, it will land flat, because then nothing will get resolved, and so I will put a little check mark in my brain that down the road I'd like to say, hey, do you remember when we were having that conversation, when neither one of us felt attacked or anything like that? Or you know, there's no conflict, it's just. I just wanted to share my feelings about that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, and you're so smart with that too, because I've even this is where differentiation has come into play and so I've rewritten and started refilming my marriage course to just like kind of give that a refresh, because I started noticing more about sometimes I would have a couple do the most beautiful four-pillared conversation and it wouldn't go well. But then when you're having each person try to feel heard, it's easy for me to say the goal to be heard is to be healed, and I believe that as an attachment theory therapist. But then at times then they're kind of like now what do we do? And I say well, you didn't argue and you didn't fight, so over time you will start to trust this process and but sometimes it's exactly what you said, where if somebody is saying, hey, I need to share some really heavy things, and this is a lot for me to share, and it takes a lot of courage for me to put this out there that that isn't always the time for the other person to say thank you so much. You know now let me take you on my train of thought, and you know so.
Speaker 2:So the differentiation piece has really helped with. Okay, I'm going to hear you and make space for you and provide that emotional safety for you. But you're so right it's like, but I'm noticing things come up in me. So now that is a. When you do that, this is a me thing. So I've got a, I've got a. You know been trying to be better with handouts or whatever. I've got a thing where you can write that stuff down so you can get back to it. Cause I find, even in my own relationship where we might have a moment where I'm holding space for one of my kids or my wife and I want to yeah, but, or say all the things and I think I'm all mature by by thinking it. But then I and I'll tell myself you know what, a couple of days from now I'll circle back around, but a couple of days from now I forget completely what that was, because I think we're so used to over decades of life that I'm going to get, I'm going to get rid of that because it was uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's so good, so good. Okay, one last one, uh ad hominem.
Speaker 2:That was the one I wanted to make sure we got to, cause this is the yeah. Cause this is a. Are you okay if I take that one? Yes, go ahead. Cause this is one.
Speaker 2:I see, and especially I think, if anybody follows the world of politics, that it just it drives me crazy. Where then it's just somebody who then just, instead of dealing with the issue, they they call the other person names, they refer like they make fun of their stature, they make fun of their speech, they make fun of their dress, they make fun of their. You know it's an ad hominem attack. It's attacking the person instead of having to deal with the argument or the information, and so to me, that is so immature. And so I recently on my podcast I never deal in the world of politics, but I just broke down a particular thing and I just looked at it from the immaturity of it. And so then, but what's difficult about that is, if somebody likes that, somebody does that, then they are also, in my opinion, somewhat immature. So then they're not coming to me being curious about hey, is this immature of me when I, as an adult human being, make fun of other adult human beings to put them down. Nobody's saying that if that's what they do.
Speaker 2:But if you know, so it just. This is how, where you start to see that polarity come up in I don't know, in the nation or in relationships or that divide where if somebody thinks it's okay to do that, then they're doing it, and then those who also think it's okay to do that are going to say, well, that person does it, so it must be okay, and those who don't think it's okay to do that are saying that's, I can't believe somebody's doing that. And then they're the ones that start getting made fun of. So it's, it's such a that ad hominem one, it's. I know that that one's one of mine. That, I think, is the highest levels of emotional immaturity.
Speaker 1:I totally agree, and I think it discredits you personally and it makes you feel invalid and irrational, like there is something so wrong with you, your psycho.
Speaker 2:I think so, but then I'm so I had mentioned. As soon as we're done, I'm going to record an episode of my own that I'm doing for the virtual couch that's around this topic of where, you know, it's this German concept of umwelt which is like basically your whole worldview and how we can all have such a different, different worldview. No doubt read something and think how can anybody think that? And then you go read the comments under it and then it's like, oh wow, people that I thought didn't think that, think that, but they must be thinking that they can't believe I think what I'm thinking and and it just is, I think it's part of that emotional immaturity is the inability to to sit with the discomfort that I might not necessarily be showing up in a good way in this situation necessarily be showing up in a good way in this situation.
Speaker 1:Well, and I, I really I appreciate this because I've just been amazed, like working with my clients, how often they name call and that is something that and I know a lot of people do that and maybe that's just from what was modeled in their home growing up too, but that's something that Jeff and I've never done. We have lots of other issues, but that is not one of them. We've never name called and I just I just feel like that when I hear some of the things that they call each other, I just think, wow, that has got to be so damaging and I I'm just sometimes just shocked Try not to show the shock on my face when I hear what they say to each other, but it's just like, oh my goodness, no wonder there's a problem here.
Speaker 2:I'm with you, it's the same, and Wendy and I don't either. So that's where I have to realize. So technically, that's a version of me projecting what I think is right onto others, but that's a hard one when I do think that's right to not do this.
Speaker 1:It's so demoralizing when you call each other names. It's just, you know words, you remember, and you remember how they're said, you remember their tone. They're said in, you remember everything surrounding that, because you just cemented that image, that voice, that feeling into your brain and so those things come up.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, feeling into your brain and so those things come up, and so, yeah, what's funny is I'm with you on that, but I know that that's you and I interpreting the world through our lens and that apparently that is not the case for everybody, because I watch people do this and then there are times where neither one of them act like it's as big of a deal. I will never forget, years ago, a couple that happened to be I knew them well from my church community. They were pillars of the church community. They reached out needing therapy.
Speaker 2:Of course I will protect all the confidentiality, but they got in my office and it was as if the minute the door was closed, I thought I was talking to two sailors in a bar. I mean, they were both just cursing each other up and down and I was blown away, and one of them looked over at me and just said sorry, this is probably really surprising to you, but this is how we talk to each other and I was like, oh, I mean I will never forget that and it was wild. And then both of them had had pretty chaotic upbringings where the like, their faith community, had brought them some, some clarity, some certainty, some validation, but they, you know they would make jokes about they couldn't take the fight out of the dog or there's some some phrase like that. And now they went on to to do well together, but it was so wild, so that's I love what you're saying I don't even know what to say about that.
Speaker 1:That's one of the things that I really talk to my couples, though, is I just feel like there's no place for name calling.
Speaker 2:I think there's so many and I don't either. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, there's so many other ways to communicate and to share your thoughts and feelings, but when you start to literally dismantle your foundation from sharing all these terrible things about each other, I don't know how in the world that could be helpful in any way. In any way, that's my feeling.
Speaker 2:So these are totally my feelings.
Speaker 2:Well, nor do I, which is one of the things I love about doing the couples therapy work is okay. I can own the fact that that is me projecting what I think is best for them, but they are literally coming in saying how can you help us? And so at some point I either have to accept the fact that that is a part of the dynamic for now and that if I can get them the right tools, that maybe that'll calm that central nervous system down, because I know that it's not going to all of a sudden. I'm not going to start jumping in there throwing out the swear words as well, but it was really interesting because they were able to really embrace tools as well. But it was really interesting because they were able to really embrace tools.
Speaker 2:But then when you really learned that both of them their backgrounds, the way they grew up, their implicit memory, what it felt like to be them, the slow residue of their own lived experience, was, that was a real challenge. To meet them as close to where they are as I could to help them get the tools for it to work. But I had to do a lot of that self-confrontation and having this like counter-transference where, okay, they say something and my, my emotions are starting to get riled. So I had to check myself and and I would allow myself to check in with each of them at times to make sure that you know and that's where it was so wild to see oh, I'm the only one getting riled up about that part of the conversation, and it was really fascinating.
Speaker 1:I think what's interesting is neither one of them like to be called names, so with my clients anyway, it was offensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like these guys were okay with that part. That's why they were. Yeah, so it's. It's blew my mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in with my clients. They're not okay being called names. Neither one of them like it, but they do it just Just they're flinging mud at each other and just yeah. Anyway, Interesting.
Speaker 2:Okay, so ad hominem bad.
Speaker 1:Yep, gaslighting Bad. I think most people know what gaslighting is now, but it's just basically denying your reality to create confusion.
Speaker 2:Good old. All or nothing. Black or white thinking is probably one of the most well-known cognitive distortions. If you don't forgive me, that means you never loved me, or either you stay. If you stay at work, that means you're abandoning me, and it just reduces these choices to extremes.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, that never happened. You're imagining things. I never said that.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, there's another one too, just a couple. And I you did a nice job, tricia, of not being distracted. When I went through my whole bag here I could not find the cards. I really thought that they were here, but just some of them.
Speaker 2:I have more on my notes that the appeal to pity, which is always a fun one All of a sudden and it is that breaking, also breaking my pillar four of going into victim mode. You know, I only lied because I didn't want to hurt you, or you know, I had such a rough childhood, that's why I act this way. So it's deflection and it's wrapped up in a nice wrapper of guilt and so then it helps that person bypass anger and then they want you now to caretake them again Because you know it's like oh man, yeah, it is your childhood, you know. So therefore you can curse at me because, kind of back to the conversation we were having before, that's what I typically see is one person that has not grown up with that dynamic and one person that has, and it's almost like because, if you look at that anxious, avoidant attachment pattern, or this concept of what, somebody, who they want to be, that often the person that maybe grew up in their home was more like a library, maybe leans in a little bit more, wanting that excitement from the other person, or the person that grew up with too much chaos sees the peaceful person as that's who they want to be.
Speaker 2:So then they, in those moments, that are what, what will often bring couples together and that's why you have such of that push and pull. You know the pursuer withdrawal kind of a dynamic in general. So what's fascinating about this other one was that it was truly a. It was almost fascinating that both came together and cause, you know, one of the pop psychology views is that chaos meets chaos, but usually it's not quite that way, you know it's. It's usually like you're looking for something that you're missing in the other partner, and so I think that's what what I was like also processing with this other couple, because they both were just like a whole whirlwinds of stuff that you know they got together.
Speaker 1:So it's really fascinating, yeah, okay. So that brings me to this question, tony why do emotionally immature, narcissistic individuals rely so heavily on these fallacies?
Speaker 2:Okay and it's, and I it is a good. It is a good kind of like. Wrapping it up with that part that we're just talking about is, I mean, it's the way that they know to connect with another human. Which is sad and this is where when I break it down at its most simple level is that we don't right out of the womb, we don't even know that we exist until we are interacting with our mom and until we're interacting with another human, we're just that entity that all of a sudden is. And then we exist and we interact with other people and that's the way we know we still matter.
Speaker 2:And so then, through the narcissistic or emotionally mature person, they don't have a true sense of self. They're not trying to figure out really who they are, but they know who they are in relationship to another person. But then, when they interact with that other person, the way that they know that they are okay is to take a one-up position. Because if they are one-up and somebody's one down, I mean it kind of goes back to the I don't want to say the evolutionary, biological joke of like, as long as you're faster than that guy, then you're going to survive because the bear will get that guy.
Speaker 1:So it's to protect their ego.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So that's where the narcissistic or immature person has to find themselves in that relationship. Initially because they have to be able to, to interact in an immature way, to take the one-up position and then, in one-up even can be victim, I mean, and that's why these logical fallacies are so fascinating. So, basically, when people are laying out logical fallacies, it's a, it's a narcissist playbook, but then the thing that people often think is that it's always knowingly done and and willingly manipulative and nefarious. And while there are times where I think it definitely can be, I believe it's more of the air that the immature breathes or the fuel that the narcissist has always used for their supply used for their supply. And that's why it's so hard for somebody to overcome a true personality disorder, because it is their personality, it is who they are, at their core, their character.
Speaker 2:Okay, now that doesn't mean it can't happen. But you can see where when I make jokes about the unicorn, it has to be a real, certain set of circumstances where they're going to either lose everything or they're locked into having to do certain things for a long period of time, but then they really can't change. But they have to change at their very core of what they think is right or wrong. So it goes back to that If somebody at their very core honestly thinks that it's okay to yell at somebody and call them names, then you or I are not going to do anything. They might learn how to not tell us that that is what they want to do, because that is the way they get out of their discomfort. But does it change at their core where they have this internal awakening and say that is, I don't think I want to do that anymore? Because even if they're saying it for a long period of time, it's like they're still looking for the right thing to say, to get out of that moment or to take that one up position.
Speaker 1:So it's like a true Okay, yeah Well, and I think too that fallacies create a smoke screen, either to dodge shame, shift blame or maintain control. So for many. It's a learned behavior, just like you're talking about. It doesn't excuse it, but it explains why accountability can feel so threatening to someone who hasn't developed the emotional maturity to someone who hasn't developed the emotional maturity.
Speaker 2:So, yeah yeah, it's a false self, because when somebody truly starts to know who they are, then they want to be more of that and there's less of a need to manipulate, control or coerce another person.
Speaker 1:Exactly Right, okay. So how can someone stay calm when they realize the conversation has just been twisted?
Speaker 2:This is the million-dollar question and I struggle with this because the pathologically kind person has been doing it for so long that then, when you start to even try to get them to do all these snarches, four points of balance find them a solid but flexible sense of self, learning to know who I am without needing others to tell me and I don't know if I've said this on one of our episodes before, but I in my mind I've got this like math formula 90% solid, 10% flexible sense of self. So I need to know I am okay, I'm leaving 10% open to flexibility. I want to hear what somebody else has to say about me, but what if 90% of that time I don? I want to hear what somebody else has to say about me.
Speaker 1:But what if 90% of that time you don't really want to, but I know right?
Speaker 2:Well, I think you can get to that if you know who you are.
Speaker 1:Because then at that point it's like oh, I'm open to it, I was just being funny.
Speaker 2:I know, right, but it's kind of true, right, yeah for sure. But once you're like I'm, and I'm going to take ownership of me. And so what if 90 percent of the time, I'm?
Speaker 1:going to say I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:And if they're like, well, what do you think about it? Like, oh, I mean, I'm thinking about it, but no, I appreciate that because we're so used to, that's where we play small or we, you know, weothe yourself, which I think is takes a tremendous amount of work. His third point of balance is then having a grounded response. You can see all the work that gets to that being grounded in your response, which means not overreacting, but we often overlook not playing small as well. And then the fourth point of balance is oh, I will take ownership of the things that I need to, and I'll even make effort to change, but those are me things, and so that is a that is a pursuit right there to get those to become differentiated. And so here's why your question is so good, and I know I want to get you to that tennis match as soon as you can.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're doing good, okay, but this, this is like I love the soothe yourself one. That is really sweet.
Speaker 2:And what I think is so hard about this is that when one is working on becoming differentiated in the relationship, they're coming out of enmeshment and so the other partner is going to feel abandoned the narcissistic partner. So they're going to say new things to get that person back into enmeshment, and even starting to talk about things like I don't even know if I want to exist, or okay, I'll tell everybody how bad you are. So you have to learn that you know, as you start to become more differentiated and have a stronger sense of self, that they won't go. Man, I'm so proud of you. They'll say, oh, you think you're better than me, or you know new buttons, and so you the work basically becomes hiding your buttons and then doing the work you need to do so that you don't react to the buttons.
Speaker 2:But I think the biggest challenge that I think I've identified is this we got the body keeps the score. So our body's telling us why on earth are you still doing this? But we've got growth through discomfort, and so I think that those can feel similar, and so you're the only one that is ultimately going to know is this If my body is telling me this is unsafe, then the boundary needs to come in. If you do this, then I need to leave. If I think that I'm kind of stuck or I got to figure this out, then the growth is going to come from the discomfort. But then the more I learn to sit with that discomfort, it will be amped up against me.
Speaker 2:And so when? So I know that was a long answer when you said how does someone stay calm in a situation like that? Because if the narcissist pushes the buttons, well enough, then all of a sudden we're into that amygdala hijack and we lose access to the whole prefrontal cortex and we're just in there. I think you call it critter brain, I love that. And so now we're fight, flight, fawn, freeze, fib, all these things, all of them. And so then the person that happens. And when that happens, there's not much you can do about it other than try to build a time machine and go back and work on meditation a couple of years ago. But it's just such a process to go through, so it's Right, yeah, so boundary versus growth through discomfort versus body keeps the score. It's a lot.
Speaker 1:So, so good, and I love all that you just shared. One of the things that I talk about but you talk about too, and that is just step one is to pause, because you don't have to respond right away, and that moment of pause gives your prefrontal cortex your CEO. It will go back online. If you can just take a step back and just kind of allow yourself to assess what's going on from there, you can remind yourself I'm not crazy and this is a tactic, and so I have a choice. What do I want to do right now? When you give yourself a choice that is keeping that in line, you're not in critter brain anymore, so it's just pausing, breathing, take a moment, and that way you're not going to. You can then redirect the conversation or disengage in it completely if needed, and because your emotional safety does come first.
Speaker 2:Well, said very well said, because your emotional safety does come first.
Speaker 1:Well, said very well, said no. I think that what you said was just amazing as well. So what should someone do if they recognize these patterns but the other person refuses to take responsibility?
Speaker 2:And that's great too. I mean, that's going to happen. A lot of people are going to listen to this episode. They're going to recognize that One of the first things that they're going to want to do is tell their partner you know, hey, they're going to recognize that one of the first things that they're going to want to do is tell their partner you know, hey, I think you're doing this and that's the and it's hard to say, not the best idea, Cause I know this is where everybody is going to do things the way that they think that they need to do.
Speaker 1:They want to hear it. They want to hear all the things that they're doing wrong.
Speaker 2:Oh right, and and it's oh gosh, I know. And that's where my first rule of narcissist fight club is don't don't tell the person they're a narcissist and and I can't tell you. I get a lot of emails and I am grateful for everybody who does. I can't tell you how many. I've thought about doing an episode before where I just search where the for the. You know that phrase. I know you said don't tell the narcissist they're a narcissist. But, and I would, I could do a whole episode on all those emails that I get where they're like, but whole episode on all those emails that I get where they're like.
Speaker 2:But I thought maybe it wasn't going to be that bad and then you know it made it worse. So I think one of the first things to do is, if this resonated with you, what we're talking about today, go listen to more Q and A files, listen to more waking up to narcissism, kind of educate yourself. And if you can work with a therapist or a coach who who deals with this type of work, because if you just go to somebody that doesn't know what Trisha and I are talking about, then I think that you're going to hear a lot of like well, but you know there's two sides to every story and what did you do as well? And or you know, I think you do need to talk or coaching as an individual and it can help you show up different, which can, in theory, raise the water in the relationship and then hopefully, the other person floats and they don't necessarily sink.
Speaker 1:Excellent, thank you. So one of the things that I thought of when I just read that question was, for me, what I would be sharing with my clients is this is where boundaries come in. So if someone repeatedly uses fallacies to avoid accountability, you can't have healthy conflict. No good point, yeah, and at that point it's not about changing them which you've shared, it's about protecting you. So you've got to limit emotional exposure, clarify expectations as best you can and, just as Tony just shared, seek outside support.
Speaker 2:And know that that might and this is a problem too, I think, with the pathologically kind is it's sometimes they feel like they're doing the wrong thing or something bad by going and getting help and so they often want to make sure and let their partner know. And but if you're in a truly emotionally unsafe relationship, you you may have to to seek this on your own. I know, tricia, you've had people that have done that, I have too where, yeah, they're kind of doing it on their own and that's okay.
Speaker 1:Well, they're trying to keep their sanity in place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, definitely Okay, and that's okay Well they're trying to keep their sanity in place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, definitely Okay. So are there early signs someone might be prone to using these tactics?
Speaker 2:What a good question. I think one of the most difficult things I see in the couple's work that I do is the person. They feel like this wasn't anything, it wasn't always happening until it was. But then if you go back and do some kind of life review, it's been there, it was just right. The pathologically kind person was just overlooking more, giving the person much more of a benefit of the doubt, or all it took was the person to throw a logical fallacy out there and then the pathologically kind person was doing all the work for it. So I know that I didn't exactly answer the question, but because it's tough, because it's already been happening, if you're noticing it now, Right.
Speaker 1:And so I think about if someone avoids hard conversations, blames others constantly or always needs to win an argument. That's a red flag. And also if they twist your words or they make you feel like you're walking on eggshells when expressing needs. Fallacies have always probably been at play. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so the good news is you are understanding it now. And then, what's the Chinese proverb? The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, and the second best time is right now. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, Okay, so let's talk about what you can do. Number one name the tactic, what's happening, Because when you name it, it loses its power. So you name what it is and that feels like a distraction from what you brought up, and so the more that you can help them well, it's not helping them understand what's happening, because they know what they're doing I really feel like. I feel like they may not know all these terms and tools and things like that, but they know what's been working for them and I really feel like that. That's just whether it's been what they've been taught. It's what works for them. They get what they want, but, just like I said, by pulling out naming that term, that can be very, very powerful.
Speaker 1:And then pause and reflect, take a step back, get your CEO back online and breathe. The more that you can focus on what's going on, the more control you can have in your life, instead of just getting lost in all these things that are happening around you. And then take a moment before engaging and ask yourself is this about what I was originally even trying to say? And so, going back to the original question, or you know how you're expressing yourself. We started with A and we ended with Z. I want to go back to A, so let's get back to that original question and then refocus.
Speaker 1:And I love the thing that Tony just shared and that is to self-soothe. So often we don't even know what that means, but this is helping you because the more that you can kind of go internally he talks about just expending a lot of emotional calories this is going to bring that energy back to center and that's where you want to keep that. You know that energy. And then as you go through these things it's document, journal, those things are really helpful to keep a record and validate your experience, Because so often when you can kind of read through what you wrote earlier and then at the moment you think, okay, I must be crazy. But then if you read it again and you see these patterns, then you can go, wow, Okay, Wait a second, I'm not crazy and that's going to be really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that you said that, because I've worked with so many people that they have been told oh, you're scorekeeping, or I can't believe you, you're writing this down. Or their, their own fear will say well, I'm worried somebody might read this. Or you know, there's a lot of yeah buts that come with journaling or jotting these things down, but it becomes so helpful, and so when I take notes in therapy, it's inevitable that the person will come in and say, maybe I'll say how's the week, and they'll say, oh, it was pretty bad. This, this and this happened. And pretty bad this, this and this happened.
Speaker 2:And I'll start talking about, okay, let's look at what's really at play. And they'll say, I mean, no, I mean, but it wasn't, it wasn't horrible. And then I'm a big fan of humor and I'm saying, okay, so, other than the fact that they said all of these hurtful things, it wasn't so bad. You know, and this is where I often like to say, the absence of bad does not equal good. It doesn't mean that things are good, it just means that maybe it was less worse this week. And so when you can go back and read things. But then I think, yeah, one of the hard things is when somebody reads journals, they feel bad and we can. Maybe we can do a follow-up episode on. Let's talk about what to do with our emotions, because our emotions are there to guide us, but when they are uncomfortable or big emotions, we often want to just stuff them down because we might have to do something about them.
Speaker 1:Right, and I'd love to do an episode in the future about how, when your nervous system is struggling, that it's felt in the body first and then it goes to the brain, because I think a lot of times that's a misconception. A lot of people think that their thoughts are controlling what's happening in their body, and it's actually the opposite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So we can talk about that later. So today we learned that logical fallacies aren't just abstract concepts. They show up in real life relationships in ways that are painful and confusing. They distort truth, they shut down vulnerability and they keep real connection just out of reach. But once you see them, name them and respond with intention, you start reclaiming your emotional safety and power. So, Tony, do you have any last minute thoughts?
Speaker 2:This was just. This was I always want to say. This was so much fun to talk about the ways people were emotionally manipulated, but I just I appreciate the question and I appreciate the opportunity that we got to be a little more organic and both of us talking about the experiences that we see in the office, because I know that every time I put out an episode like this or that you do, or we put one of these out, it's going to reach people, that it's going to make them feel some things and that it's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and well, and you already even feel uncomfortable because it's hard to self-confirm, right? Because that means, once I know it's hard to well, you can't unknow anymore. And then but that's part of that emotional maturity is allowing yourself to feel and think. And once you know, once it's in your head, you'll start to notice more. And then at some point I promise, as uncomfortable as this might be, you're on a road where you will at some point feel better about yourself and the situation that you will be in. But there's some uncomfortable things that might come.
Speaker 1:And what does comfort do?
Speaker 2:Discomfort is where we grow and that builds our emotional maturity.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Perfect. That was beautiful. Well, we're absolutely loving your questions we've been receiving and, bella, thank you again for yours. It wasn't just brave, it was so powerful and I know you're going to help so many others feel seen. So we just really appreciate you taking the time to send in your question, and I know there are more of you holding questions in your heart. You've told me in groups and sessions and messages, so here's your invitation Please send your questions in, email us at fyshajamesoncoaching at gmailcom and we may be featuring your question in an upcoming episode.
Speaker 1:If this episode brought you clarity, please share it. Share it with a friend, a sibling, a neighbor, someone who needs it, and then hit subscribe and leave us a review. That's how this community grows and we're so grateful you're part of it. And if you're in a relationship that feels broken or beyond repair, I want to remind you of something there's still hope. My eight-month Healing Hearts program is designed for couples who feel lost but are still holding onto a thread of hope. It's a guided journey back to safety, connection and trust, with the tools, support and structure you've been missing. So please reach out to me directly at Trisha Jamieson coaching at gmailcom, because you don't have to do this alone. We'll see you next time on the Q&A files. Until then, stay grounded, stay kind and keep asking the questions that matter. Goodbye everybody.
Speaker 2:Thanks everybody.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files, delighted to share today's gems of wisdom with you. Your questions light up our show, fueling the engaging dialogues that make our community extra special. Keep sending your questions to trishajamesoncoaching at gmailcom. Your curiosity is our compass. Please hit subscribe, spread the word and let's grow the circle of insight and community together. I'm Trisha Jameson, signing off. Stay curious, keep thriving and keep smiling, and I'll catch you on the next episode.
