The Q&A Files
The Q&A Files drops A Wellness Explosion
💥 BOOM! Attention Wellness Warriors. The game changer you have been waiting for is finally here. Say hello to “The Q&A Files,” where wellness meets revolution and your questions lead to new discoveries. Spearheaded by Trisha Jamison, your host, a Board Certified Functional Nutritionist. Cohost Dr. Jeff Jamison, a Board Certified Family Physician, and featured guest, Tony Overbay, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. This podcast blends three diverse perspectives to tackle your questions on health, nutrition, medicine, mental wellness, and relationships. Dive into a world of expert insights and actionable advice, all sparked by your curiosity. Tune in, ignite your wellness journey, and join the Wellness Warrior community.
The Q&A Files
67. The Secret Life: Confronting Betrayal and Pornography in the Marriage Relationship; Part 1, a Female Perspective.
Discovering hidden pornography use in your marriage can feel like having the ground ripped from beneath your feet. The questions haunt you: Was it all a lie? Am I not enough? How could I have missed this? In this raw, courageous exploration of betrayal trauma, we address a heartbreaking letter from Paula, who recently discovered her husband's secret pornography use after eight years of marriage.
The emotional devastation of betrayal trauma runs deep, but healing begins with understanding an essential truth—this isn't about you. Dr. Jeff Jamison, Tony Overbay and I unpack why partners often internalize betrayal, questioning their own worth when confronting a partner struggling with pornography. We examine how early exposure (in this case, at age 10) creates neurological pathways that can lead to lifelong struggles with intimacy and authentic connection.
When trust shatters, the body responds as if under attack. We offer practical techniques for nervous system regulation—box breathing, self body scanning, and sensory grounding—while acknowledging the messy reality that healing isn't linear. The question "was our entire relationship a lie?" reveals the painful complexity survivors face as they sort through what was real and what wasn't.
One of the most liberating perspectives we share is that rebuilding trust isn't the betrayed partner's responsibility. The person who broke trust must demonstrate consistent, transparent behavior over time. This shifts the burden off the wounded partner and places it where it belongs—on the person doing the healing work.
Whether you've experienced betrayal or are struggling with pornography use yourself, this conversation offers compassionate insight without judgment. Next week, we'll explore the husband's perspective with equal depth and care. Remember, while pornography addiction damages relationships, it doesn't determine your worth or destiny. Healing is possible, even if the path forward feels impossible to imagine right now.
Have a question? Trouble in your marriage? Contact Trisha directly at trishajamisoncoaching@gmail.com.
Be sure and catch Tony on his podcasts, The Virtual Couch and Waking up to Narcissism.
Leave us a comment! We love to hear your comments!
Hello and welcome to the Q&A Files, the ultimate health and wellness playground. I'm your host, tricia Jamieson, a board-certified functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner, ready to lead you through a world of health discoveries. Here we dive into a tapestry of disease prevention to nutrition, exercise, mental health and building strong relationships, all spiced with diverse perspectives. It's not just a podcast, it's a celebration of health, packed with insights and a twist of fun. Welcome aboard the Q&A Files, where your questions ignite our vibrant discussions and lead to a brighter you. Welcome, Wellness Warriors, to another episode of the Q&A Files. I am Trisha Jamison, a functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner and a life coach, and your host today, and I'm here with two amazing humans Dr Jeff Jamison, a board-certified family physician, and Tony Overbay, a licensed marriage and family therapist. Always so grateful for your wisdom and honesty, and thank you so much, both of you, for being here today.
Speaker 2:Hey, good to see you, happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So before we dive in, let's start with what, tony, because I know you have so many.
Speaker 2:Celebrations. But, man, I'm going to be so kind and let one of you guys go first.
Speaker 1:Okay, jeff, I'm going to be so fine, I'm going to let you go first.
Speaker 3:Oh, Tony, thank you so much for letting that. I'm just so grateful for Tony getting me this opportunity.
Speaker 1:Is that what we're doing? He?
Speaker 3:loves Tony. Okay, so this last week our daughter Alyssa was able to be here at our house with her kids and we just had a wonderful time with them and they were fun and oh busy. You know they are busy kids, but they're wonderful. Took three of them flying one of the days and so we just flew around the area and looked at things and they were amazed and you know all of those wonderful childhood things of being up in the airplane and be able to see where you're going is pretty cool. So my gratitude has to do with grandchildren, my daughter, our daughter Alyssa, and flying.
Speaker 1:Beautiful, perfect, tony.
Speaker 2:Okay, I really did have one today and it was what we were talking to before we hit record. And it's just the the, the miracle of modern medicine. And I, since we last recorded, I got my what I've been calling my new headshots, that are my x-rays, that have the hardware in my neck, and it is wild, it is so crazy to think I have this titanium plate and screws and cages and spacers, and my vertebrae and my pain is gone, and to think that in the end of December, I knew nothing was brewing underneath the surface. And here we are in April, and it's wild.
Speaker 2:I think about the therapy tools that I like to preach and acceptance, and it just is, and that happened. And then, boy, though, when that happens to you, I never anticipated being someone that is walking around that has titanium plate and screws in their vertebrae and then is okay, and I've been thinking so much about when I am healed, the choices I get to make, moving forward of. Do I try to keep hammering away at the things, the person I was, exercise wise and things before, or, but I think I'm going to it's time to become a Yogi and a Pilates guru, and maybe not an ultra marathon runner, and embrace all the things that I don't even know about. So I I've just had this mind shift over the last week of of okay here, here we are next. Next adventure with screws and plates in my neck.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate that because probably about a year and a half ago I really had to change my exercise regimen from doing insanity, crazy workouts to not so much. I walk a lot. I do a lot of other things because I want to protect my body and before it was like I was invincible, I could do anything yes and so I appreciate that mindset because just thinking you're, you know, the more you work out, the better you're gonna feel, and actually I feel like that's not true anymore. I've been able to enjoy so much more because I'm not so crazy anymore.
Speaker 2:Still crazy but I love it. I, yeah, right. And then normally when we recorded these, I've tried to have already had a whatever a 10 mile run or whatever it's in, and today I had a nice three and a half mile walk listening to an audio book. Isn't it fun? Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:It was. It was nice. I took two of our grandkids, the four that were here this week. I took two of them, our 10-year-old and 6-year-old, and drove them. Well, almost 11 hours, not miles.
Speaker 2:I wish it was 11 miles.
Speaker 1:Our 10-year-old wished it was 11 miles because she kind of got sick on the way home and we went to Utah for a week. And we went to Utah for a week and so our daughter, our third daughter, michaela. She has three children and they have a six-year-old and I took a six-year-old and they're like best buddies, so they've grown up together. They have missed each other so much and so I took him and then I took Lily, our 10-year-old, as well, so she could help him, because you know he likes to sleep with his sister and so that was really helpful. But they were amazing, they were absolutely amazing. We had so much fun. And then, when we came home, our second daughter, alyssa, was here with the other two and we just enjoyed them with all four kids and we just had a great time.
Speaker 1:So, had so much fun in Utah and best grandma of the year award goes to Right, but I got to spend time with our other daughter, capri and her husband, colin, and Chase and Desireee, and got to see their little baby, owen, and Owen was born on Christmas Day and Michaela, their youngest, was born just the day before Thanksgiving. So we've got some sweet little babies that we get to enjoy, and I was really, really missing them, so it was so great to spend some time there. So that's my celebration and thank you so much for sharing your celebrations. Those are all awesome.
Speaker 1:Now, today we're diving into a deeply emotional and complex topic pornography and relationships. So over time we've had several questions come in on this topic, but today I want to highlight two in particular in on this topic. But today I want to highlight two in particular, and one of these questions came in a little while ago and the second one just came in this week, and they're from two different people, so two different stories, but they both center on the same struggle how pornography impacts trust, intimacy and emotional safety. And what makes this so powerful is that we get to look at it from both a wife and a husband's perspective. They are not a married couple, but they are both speaking to the pain and confusion that this issue brings just from opposite sides of the experience. So I'm really glad we're able to talk about this topic We'll focus on one today, one question today and one next week and I think it offers a fuller picture of the hurt, the hope and the healing that's possible. This is such a sensitive topic and I honestly don't know where to start.
Speaker 1:My husband and I have been married for about eight years. We have two young children, ages three and six. I always thought we had a good marriage. He had shared with me a long time ago that he was first exposed to pornography around the age of 10 through a friend's older brother. Over the years he's mentioned just on occasion that he might be struggling again, but he always reassured me he was keeping it in check and he was handling it. So I had absolutely no idea anything more serious was going on. But recently I found images on his phone and that opened a door I never wanted to walk through. What I discovered was overwhelming websites, explicit conversations and a hidden PayPal account. It turns out he's been paying for things, for services and things I didn't even know existed. He's been living a second life and I only found out because I stumbled upon it.
Speaker 1:The part that wrecks me is that he didn't come clean. I had to find out myself is that he didn't come clean. I had to find out myself, and that is so painful. I've always tried to take care of myself. I work out, I try to look attractive and I genuinely believed we had a strong connection.
Speaker 1:So I can't help but ask why fake women? Why choose that over me? Was our entire relationship based on lies? Is this about me not being enough, or is this about something deeper inside of him that I'll never be able to understand? I feel sick to my stomach, I'm furious, but at the same time I feel completely numb. Most days I don't even know what day it is. I am overwhelmed and lost. How do I even begin to recover from this? I'm struggling just to take care of myself. I don't know how to rebuild trust or if I even want to. And the hardest part, I still have to show up for my kids, even when I feel like I'm falling apart inside. Can you please help me?
Speaker 1:So, first of all, there's so much pain in Paula's story Betrayal, confusion, numbness and that deep ache of not knowing what's real anymore. And what stood out to me the most was her question. Why fake women? Why choose that over me? And, even more painfully, was our entire relationship based on lies. So I've actually seen this many times. When betrayal is uncovered and there's this almost immediate collapse into shame, she starts scanning her body, her behavior, her worth. It's like she's trying to retroactively figure out where she failed, when really this isn't about her failure at all. So, tony, I want to start with you. You've walked alongside many women in this exact emotional space. Why is it that when betrayal like this happens, so many women internalize it and begin to question their own worth? And how can someone like Paula begin to separate her value from her partner's choices?
Speaker 2:This is such a good question. I want to ask Tricia, tell me if this would be okay. I want to just say, can you either put her question in our chat of Zoom or even text me, because I would love to almost break it down. This is so amazing and I'm grateful for Paula for asking this, and I want, of course, I don't want to hog the show, but, man, this is the world I work in every day and from both the men and the women, and definitely not trying to plug my book, but I've got a book called he's a Porn Addict.
Speaker 2:Now what An Expert and a Former Addict Answer your Questions, and it's a co-author with a guy named Josh Shea and then we both had eight chapters of questions like these that then I answered from. I played the role of the expert, he played the role of the addict, and we didn't know what each other was going to say, and then we just put them all together for the book and it's just really fascinating, because I'm trying to shed light on my view of working with a lot of men and women and then he was saying, okay, here's where he was at, and I just think it's so interesting to her question is. So there's so many layers here. It's so deep, it is, it is and it's so good too, and I'm grateful. Yeah, we need to break this down in as many episodes as we need to. I think this could be really powerful and helpful, because I'll just start. I'll start addressing it while you're doing that too, tricia. But why does somebody, why does Paula initially make it about her? And that is because she's a human and that's what we do. And I've been thinking a lot about this the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 2:I did a couples training from this amazing couples therapist named Terry Real, and he has this concept where he talks about what was adaptive. That we did as a child is maladaptive as an adult, and so the adaptive part of our child is what has protected us as a kid. And I go back to this One of the first things that we do is you know from the beginning, if we express our emotions, if we do anything like that, our parent will meet our needs. I'm talking early. We cry, we get fed, we you know, if we say we need something, our parent will come to a rescue. But then, the older we get, even the more expressive we get.
Speaker 2:Our parents are busy in their own lives and people are doing their own things, and so we're still just wired to think, okay, why are people not making me feel better? And so then it must be me. I mean, here's our core element of shame that it's not just that I am unworthy, I'm unlovable because now I'm expressing something and this person did it to me. So it's one of those things that we just kind of it's in our programming and there's also a concept of that. And so that was adaptive as a kid, because how would we know any better?
Speaker 2:We're egocentric as a kid. Everything is happening to us. It is we only know of our world, and so that was how we had to adapt and survive as a kid, trying to make sense of things. But then as an adult, now that becomes maladaptive, because it's still just our immediate reaction is how could they do this to me? But then also part of that is I need to make sense of it and that I can fix it. If I can make it about me, I can do something about it. But in reality this is more, and I love what part of her question is. It's not necessarily about her. I mean, it's a him issue and it's something that he is struggling with, that he doesn't know how to communicate well, that he is living the dual life, and so it isn't about her.
Speaker 3:But, man, that is a hard concept to to believe, right, and I'll pause because I don't want to just keep going but it just seems like there's so much pain yeah, that happens from that that it's it's hard for her not to take it upon herself, and I think one of the core things that happen with women anyway is that at their core, they're comparative. Yes, totally they compare, you know, does my hair look as good as so-and-so's hair? And I think sometimes women look at women more than guys look at women.
Speaker 1:I agree with that Not in the same way Agreed.
Speaker 3:But the thing that happens, I think, is that women take the problem of pornography and internalize it as that they are comparing with the quote fake women, unquote on the screen or on the page, and they're trying to be somehow able to compete with them. And it's an impossible task and they know it, but it still is painful. And I'm not sure how, tony may, you've got a lot more understanding of this, of how to help women understand what's going on within themselves so that they can walk through this.
Speaker 2:So and I like well, I like what you're saying there too, and this is funny. I just wrote I watch me quote myself. How egotistical is that. But I literally just was writing about this yesterday, about comparison in general. So I was just right and I said we're all.
Speaker 2:We're also hardwired with a fundamental need for social connection, to belong to a group, a tribe of people. So I just said, in our evolutionary past, being separated from your group or your tribe didn't just mean you'd miss out on the latest meme or out of the loop. It meant that you were exposed to all the elements, including predators, and you could die. So how does your brain protect you from being left out? By running a continuous social comparison program? Am I meeting a group expectation? Am I wearing anything that will get me teased? Am I at least better than skinnier than, smarter than funnier than, or a million other than's, the other people in my tribe? Have I said anything that will make people think less of me? Are my contributions valued? Who, then, am I? I need somebody to tell me what I need to do.
Speaker 2:And then and I just said, thank you, social media. But now I'm even comparing myself to a version of me that I think I need to be, or else I've somehow even let myself down. So it's just that's exhausting. So I think that's the constant programming that's going on in our, in our minds, that's like there for in our DNA. So so much of this, I think, is just it's visceral, it's reactionary, so, and it has to come to this boiling point before you even are aware of it. And then, immediately, that's where we go to the what is wrong with me? What can I do to fix this? Why would he do this to me? So I just, I just I hope that I'm laying that case out enough that how normal it is, but how just reactionary it is. And and again, our reactions are part of that childhood programming that I need to react in order to get somebody to pay attention to me and ultimately to make me feel better, and so it's just so normal.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think this is such a big problem in our world and I think that one of the unfortunate things, we don't talk about it because it's so shamed, yeah, and it's embarrassing and it's awful. I mean on both spectrums, and I appreciate, just as I've worked with couples as well, how embarrassing and shaming it is for the husband because he gets on the shame train and how devastating it is for the wife, yeah, because it's like and we're going to talk all about these different things. So I'm just going to, we're going to break them down, but, yes, I mean, it's just such a devastating piece of information because you thought you knew your spouse and to have this exposed it's like what, what went wrong? And just like you talked about tony, they internalize it. It's if they can find out that there's something wrong with them then, they can change that thing.
Speaker 1:It's so hard to help women understand that it has nothing to do with them. But how can you tell a woman when he's looking at all these pictures and explicit things that it has nothing to do with them? It's such a hard concept to wrap their head around.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And also that I still want to say from like, we all three have different perspectives. I love mine is still that nothing went wrong. It was happening, it just is. Now it has been brought to light and now what do we do about it really?
Speaker 2:But then that is hard to. I can't even imagine being her in that position, because then she again, we want to make sense of things so bad. We have this desperate need for to make sense and certainty and we just think, if I can get all the questions answered, if I can make it make sense to me, then I'll feel better. So that's even the part where and I don't know if we want to go down this path but even now, let's say, when she finds out she goes and confronts her husband. This is where I've said, you know, this is always hindsight, it is. But you want to say can you pause right there and find someone that you can work with and an expert that you can work with?
Speaker 2:Because here comes the why did you do this? And now he's caught off guard, he feels shame. And now here comes the, the beloved staggered disclosure, where now he doesn't even want to think that he could have done the things, that that he did so and he doesn't want to hurt her. He has the shame going. So now let me just staggered some information, and and I just I can't stress this enough You've got to her, which I know it makes so much sense where she's saying I just need to know, I need all the answers, and if I can get the answers I'll feel better and then it'll make sense to me. He doesn't, honestly, even know completely why he's done the things he's done, and he's certainly tried to bury those with shame. And so then, because of the shame, and so now he's going to just give her a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, which is not going to make sense to her.
Speaker 1:There's no way.
Speaker 2:It's not enough and it's not so she'll keep saying more and that'll get him to say more. And now here comes the pattern, the staggered disclosure that if I just stay on this, then he'll say things, and he might even say things that he doesn't even believe himself. Just trying to get her to feel better and him to.
Speaker 1:It's such a pattern, and one of the things that I tell my clients is you think you want to know all the information, but I, I assure them that they don't, because then your mind just spins and you just think of all of these crazy images. That is never helpful, but they don't understand that, they can't appreciate, they're like no, I want to know all of it. I, I want him to be honest, I want him to disclose it all to me, because then he's being open and vulnerable and yeah, so I, I like to hear that a lot sometimes patients come to me and they say you, they have this problem, whatever the problem is, and it has happened to them.
Speaker 3:And what they want to know is why did it happen to them? And the why question is almost never answerable. And when you say, well, if it's an easy one, like you fell down and you broke your arm, that's why. If it's an easy one like you fell down and you broke your arm, that's why. But the reason that they're trying to know why is not because they really want to understand the process, it's because they want to get in front of it so that it doesn't happen again or that they can fix it. And that's the whole thing with pornography, I think, is that you know, a person that is confronted with the use or abuse of pornography by their partner has a whole bunch of feelings and they want to get to the bottom of it so they can stop it from ever happening again. And they think that going through all that will somehow reveal the answer, which is never true.
Speaker 2:It's funny when you bring that up too, even just like this, this neck surgery I had, I would love to. I mean, I've had people say it must be because of the running and then, but my spinal surgeon said not necessarily that could have even made it, helped. You hang in there better, you know, and I still, I still want to know. And then, and I think about this as 20 year longitudinal study on knees at a study at Stanford, it shows that the more you run, the better the blood flow, the healthier you are. But it's the running on the pitch or the camber of the road or not swapping out your shoes, enough. But we just want to. We want to say no, it's because of this pornography, it's because I'm not enough, it's because you know, I don't work out enough.
Speaker 3:It's because and, but at some point attractive enough. Yeah, exactly, work out enough. It's because, but at some point More attractive enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly All the this or that, yeah. And so, even like with my neck, one of my friends reached out and he said I just want you to know, I don't think it's because you're running. And I had said, hey, you know what? I appreciate that, whatever it is, here we are, what do we do, moving forward? I know I'm not trying to compare my spinal surgery with the woman's feeling of betrayal I promise I'm not trying to do that. But I just love what you're saying there, dr Jeff, and you too, tricia. We do want to make sense of it, because our brain says if I can make sense of it, my discomfort will be gone, it'll never happen again and we can move on and all is well. And that isn't the way it works, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:Excellent. So I just want to give our listeners a couple key things that they can do, and then we can talk about these things. And I think when I start working with women in these situations, I want them to focus on grounding themselves in truth. And what does that truth look like? And there's three things that I focus on. One is name the emotion. I feel betrayed, I feel angry, I feel numb. Help them recognize how they're feeling.
Speaker 1:Two is affirm the reality. They didn't cause this. This is not because they're not enough. This is not because they did something wrong and because, just like you said, I think women have a propensity to take the blame. That's just kind of our nature oftentimes, and so it's an easy thing to do. But we have to anchor their worth, and it's I am still enough. And that is number three. So the more that you can focus on those three things name the emotion, affirm your reality and anchor your worth that is going to help ground you, so you can focus on what's real, because right now you're living in a world of all these different pieces don't make sense and it's just. It's a real confusing place to be.
Speaker 3:And that can happen from any kind of trauma. I mean it isn't just pornography trauma. It can happen from any kind of betrayal trauma. No matter how you're betrayed, you can feel that your whole world is rocked, your whole idea of what's true and what's not true, and so all of those things happen in any of those. So it applies at a ground level for all of that. The other thing I wanted to point out real quickly is that pornography is pervasive in our society.
Speaker 3:At this point you can get you know it'd take you two seconds to find pornography on the internet if you wanted to find it. And so, if you're alive, you've either been exposed to or you've used, in one form or another, pornography, and so and this goes for men and women I think that it's. What is it, tony? The statistics are like two thirds of men and one third of all women become over users of pornography as they get. What's that stats?
Speaker 2:on. I mean that it's all over the place because so many people don't disclose. And then even within this and this is what I think is part of what even paula's questions about is that people will then define it however they want, where people just say, okay, no, I don't have a problem with it, and it can even be because it's been since yesterday, and and I believe that then the people that are overcoming it. In their mind, it's like every time is the last time, and I'm not saying that to be funny or anything, because I believe that people genuinely believe that no, I won't do it ever again, because that helps them alleviate their own discomfort, and they have to tell themselves that to make sense of things. And then it's like they'll have a shelf life. It could even be a couple of days a week where they're like, no, I'm good until I'm not again.
Speaker 2:Because I think one of the biggest challenges is that what do we do to get rid of our discomfort? A lot of times we will tell ourselves no, I honestly, this is it. I know more and we feel resolute and we're going to do it. But the big difference is, what do I do when I wake up the next day. Do I start a meditation program? Do I start doubling down on my spiritual practice? Do I join a group? Do I take a course? Do I meet with the expert? And usually we won't, because the very story we tell ourselves is that, no, this is the last time. Discomfort alleviated, wake up the next day I feel good, and so then I will never do it again. Until I do so, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:And next week we're going to talk about the husband's perspective, so I want to be able to focus on that, because you have so much to offer there, and so I don't want to take it away.
Speaker 2:Well, let me go back into what Paul had said. Let me ask you a question first. I'll hang on a second. So what I want to ask you, tony, is how do you help women who feel invisible or replaced by a fantasy world, and how do you help them start claiming their own voice and identity? Therapist, who has some skills in this area, because the fact that, though, if the woman feels like she has no voice, is already prevalent if she's trying to find her voice, and so then in that scenario, it's most likely to have been in a dynamic where, even if she starts to express her voice, the husband is very skilled in you know, okay, no, you're right, I'm a horrible person, or well, you look, I said I'm not going to do it anymore. There's a variety of buttons that can be pushed that get her to then go back into this, the one down position. So I think that she does need help, because she's probably already been through this rodeo a few times of trying to express herself about something that she really now has had enough of or doesn't understand. But he's also good at alleviating his shame, his discomfort, his discomfort, and then it just falls down into the similar dynamics. So I usually will get somebody coming into my office that they finally just say I don't, I don't know what else to do, and sometimes it is the very I can't do this anymore card that will get him to finally say, okay, fine, like I 'll go to see somebody. So that's the part I just want to normalize. Is that the fact that she doesn't have a voice and wants to express it and something like this has happened.
Speaker 2:I would imagine it's not the first time where maybe something like this has happened, but the fact and I and this is what I like about our group where sometimes I know, at least when I'm doing the group call with women, by the time they get to that call and they say how can I do something, even though he doesn't want to participate, and then I've been framing this okay.
Speaker 2:So you got to the point where you were so frustrated that you started looking for resources and you found a podcast and you reached out to somebody there to get led into this private group, to then be on a call every other week to then ask the question All of that I call them leading indicators that you need additional help. You need more help than just trying to figure out how can I say it different or how can I show up different, because you've continued to do the work and then he's been able to get out of that conversation or that discomfort somehow. So I think my biggest advice would be you need more help, you need support or yeah, definitely you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 3:I love that phrase. I mean. I love especially when I get to hear some important things that people have learned as they've gone through the process of understanding this thing. I love how they go. I just didn know X. I just didn't know that if I were able to process it in this way, I'd be free of it, yeah, or I'd be free of the guilt of someone else's choices, right, right, and that's a big part that I think women are having such a hard time with is letting go of their own guilt because of someone else's choices their husband, boyfriend, whomever and letting go of that so that they can feel free to make their own choices somebody hearing some new information is going to say yeah, but he's looking at other women or yeah, but I, you know, and, and that's where it is uncomfortable and how do we get rid of our discomfort and and how?
Speaker 2:and we typically fall back into the familiar. And that's when we say okay, no, it is okay. This time it is different. He said he's going to stop or, you know, he may have shut me down, but at least I was able to say something this time before. And it is different. And, man, I know Tricia I think we've talked about this before doing work with couples is that they will be motivated to come in and then sometimes just even coming in a time or two, they they're better, they feel better. But you know, but we know it's a, it's the long game. I mean, if it's better that fast, all you did was you both felt better, that you did something, but you still don't even know what you don't know about the tools that you need to heal or for that to help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, and I'd like to just kind of speak into this as well. So she talks about reclaiming her voice and her identity, and the thing that I'd like to share about that is it takes time. This isn't something that's going to just. You know, you find this information and there's a process that happens, and so often you want an immediate result.
Speaker 1:It's not possible, right all the pain and all the anguish, to get to a place that then you can think you can function. You can then be taught new tools, but it unfortunately that's a real thing and a lot of times my clients are just like I don't want to feel this pain, I don't want to be in the space. Why do I? You know I didn't do this, I didn't cause this. Why do I have to feel this? That's not fair and it's not Obviously. It's not fair and it's frustrating, and I totally appreciate where they're coming from. But one of the things that we talk about, too, is, once you learn and grow into the person that you will get to become, you will have a voice, you will have a different identity, you will grow in that space that you can't even imagine who you'll become.
Speaker 3:I think it's also important to point out that some people, when they're going through this and they're angry and upset and mad, they make choices that they regret. Yeah, and upset and mad, they make choices that they regret. Yeah, okay, and so you know, they go and pull a Carrie Underwood and key the truck and rip apart their you know, or whatever it is that they are when they're being vindictive regarding this, that they may later regret because they may have to serve jail time, they may have to do other things that make an understanding more difficult, as they have to go through more problems that they created themselves. So hang in there.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that that's rare. I don't the people that I work with.
Speaker 2:They're not vindictive like that, but I'm sure that there may be some like that but I think that they're just so lost and they're just trying to function oh, I totally agree but I I hear you, dr jeff, because it's like I just did an episode on reactive, of reactive abuse or reactive response, and it's almost one of the the more difficult things where in the episode I talk about the fact that when the person does react, that then and then I even changed the concept of reactive abuse to reactive response because I loved it A couple of women in our group were talking about how I thought hearing that it's you know, it's reactive abuse would be liberating.
Speaker 2:But then it's the very pathologically kind women that are saying but that means I am abusing back, that my behavior is abusive and I'm saying, right, but it's because he did the thing and it was a beautiful conversation around. But I don't want to be the person that does that just because he did, and that episode alone has gotten so much feedback because it is a reaction and it may not be your best moment, but to give yourself grace, because it is a reaction to something that you did not see coming at all, and so I feel like giving somebody the grace that you are going to react. You're a human and so, yeah, it's hard to know what that reaction will be, and so I think the biggest part is forgiving yourself for that, if that is where you're at.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think too along those lines, is there's some amazing support groups out there and I've heard that they really focus on anger and how to channel that anger in a positive, constructive way. That can be so much more helpful because you know they are angry, they are frustrated, they are so hurt and sometimes that carries into, like you just said, behaviors that are not going to be conducive to feeling good later. So OK, so she also asked something so jarring Was our whole relationship a lie? This is one of the hardest parts, because the human brain wants black and white answers. Was it real or fake? Was it love or deception? And yet real relationships, you know they're really that simple right. So how do you help someone hold the complexity of love and betrayal in the same space?
Speaker 2:Well, the way you just said that is so good Because this is is right back to one of my favorite concepts that I think is not talked about enough Whole object relations. Emotional immaturity is all or nothing, black or white, because it's easier. Emotional maturity is to be able to see a person, an entity, a group you know I help people navigate a faith journey, faith crisis, a lot of religious organization. You name it as a whole object and that means I can really appreciate some things, I can love some things. I can be frustrated about some things, I might not even like some things, and the ability and I love the way you put that, trisha to hold all of that is emotional maturity, where we, we just want certainty, so it doesn't even mean I have to do anything about it right now. Part of the process is starting to recognize I don't like this, I never have, but I can't appreciate this and we need to address this. You know there's all these different things, because this is probably one of the number one questions is was their whole relationship built off of lies and was, you know? And whole object relations? No, but, and I love that. We'll talk about this when we get to the men's version of it, but that to the, the person struggles with the unhealthy coping mechanisms. They want to be as present as they can in that moment, because then that helps them feel like they're not a horrible human being for the things that they've turned to that they're not proud about. So sometimes they're trying to be even more present in those moments.
Speaker 2:So I'm thinking about a couple this week where this is going on and she talked about but man, every time we would travel together, it was so amazing. And it's like, of course, because that's where he could say man, when we travel together and it's just the two of us and we're in this amazing place and we're having all these new novel experiences and we're spending more time together. And she's like so was that not real? I was like that was real, that was there, you were in that moment. But then he would even come home and he would say it was almost like pulling back in. You know, the plane lands and here comes the shame there to escort me off the plane and to say, oh, really Like. So you're now, look what you're going to do. You're coming home and you've got this weight of this person that you've never told her about. And now you're, you know, you think that you got away with something on the vacation.
Speaker 2:He was talking about his internal monologue and it was so wild. And what I loved is that she immediately wanted to then say, oh, that must be hard and she's like, I'm still mad and I was like, of course, course, but you can still be mad and you can still have had a good time on the vacation and you can still want to see something change. So, yeah, that is emotional maturity, but it's difficult because our brains are going to want to keep going back to. I need to make sense of it. You need to help me understand it's.
Speaker 1:it's so tough yeah, and I feel like we can. They can honor the good without excusing the harm, but it does, Because we want to stay in that forward motion. That present state, because that's where you want to live is what happened in trying to figure things out, just what we just talked about. So, Jeff Paula mentioned her husband was exposed to pornography at the age of 10. From a medical and developmental standpoint, what can that kind of early exposure do to the brain and how might that shape adult behavior, especially in relationships?
Speaker 3:Well, this is a hard one, because when a person is sexualized this is what this is called when you are exposed at an earlier age than probably a person should to the realities of sexualization or sexuality, it can turn on those brain centers earlier than you'd otherwise like to have that happen and you're not able at those younger ages to recognize the right or the wrong of it at that point and you're just noticing that it is and how you feel. And a lot of times children can't figure's exciting or that makes me feel weird or upset. They feel those things but they don't know how to name them. And so what happens is the brain turns towards well, I enjoyed that experience because the curiosity was something. And then it leads a person to seek out more of those experiences. If it was enjoyable, if it was something that made them unhappy or scared them, they're unlikely to go after more of those experiences and it may turn them off to sexuality later. So everybody has their own reaction to it.
Speaker 3:How a child, though at an early age, and children are getting exposed to pornography and sexuality earlier and earlier, and how it can manifest, is that and in some boys, for instance, and girls, frankly if they're sexualized early, then they can act out those things on other children or other people, or they're more accepting of it if it happens to them from a trusted friend or relative. So it becomes a non, not a oh, somebody did something bad to me. Or they don't even know what happened until their late teens or early 20s. And then when they go, oh my gosh, I can't even believe I allowed that to happen. And then they feel shame because they didn't stop it back then and they feel like that they were a bad child because they didn't stand up for themselves or they didn't tell the mom or tell the dad this was going on and it just leads to an incredible amount of pain and sophisticated feelings that are really hard to figure out on into adulthood. So how am I doing, tony? Is that?
Speaker 2:what you thought. Yeah, I know that's so well said and it's so complicated, because I like where you just said it, unfortunately it just kind of is. And then I've worked with enough people where then even when they would try to say something to the parent, they don't know how to express that and then the parent doesn't want to think that that could be happening. So then it's like, oh, it's not that bad or it's not that big of a deal, and I'm not even saying it as a the parent doing anything wrong, because it just we just don't know how to communicate about this. And I have to tell you there's a, there's a documentary right now on this and I listened to an interview with her.
Speaker 2:Her name's Lauren Greenfield, it's on Hulu and it's called social studies and it is the most fascinating thing where and she talks about how difficult it was to she got a bunch of teens to allow her to have access to their phones for the span of about a year, and then she's filming a documentary and so it would show you when somebody's talking, like at a school assembly and then a handful of students, that then what they're doing with their phone at the time. And she talked about one of the biggest challenges is she's trying to present the documentary just to just say this just is like here's information, do with it what you will, but the information is kind of scary. I mean it really is, and uh, and it really made me rethink. All my kids are adults now, but I would have probably handled things differently, even with with phones at that time, because they are exposed and even exposure is. We don't even understand what that means now, cause exposure to me was, um, like, honestly, a kid found a you know, finds the playboy in the field, puts a boy's life magazine cover over it One of the greatest things I've ever seen done by a 13 year old boy and then we had access to a magazine, you know, and now they're talking about these videos and going on TikTok and and Instagram and you name it.
Speaker 2:And then just the algorithm, the way that plays out it just I can sound like such an old man. I'm about to say, hey, kids, get off my lawn right now, but it's, the exposure is so real. And then they're trying to make sense of it with their brain and they're not talking to the parents and they're turning to each other and it is normalized. It's so wild. So that documentary is it's actually it's quite uncomfortable, but it's really really powerful as well.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, and I really think too that you know this is such an important piece to understand. So when pornography becomes a coping mechanism, at age 10 years old. It becomes part of that person's neurological reward system Just exactly what Jeff was talking about, and I think that this doesn't mean he doesn't love the person or isn't attracted. It just means his system has learned to, like you talked about, soothe or in a way bypasses emotional intimacy later in life and understanding. That doesn't excuse the behavior, whether it's anxious, disorganized, avoidant.
Speaker 2:there's a movement by psychologists to call it your attachment orientation, even because just to really understand that the attachment you bring into your relationship was formed so long ago that you know. This is where I believe we're in relationships to learn about ourselves. And we need to do that through the relationship with another person, because we're going into that relationship not knowing who we are and but then the immature version of that is I still need this person, I need to hide from this person and I need them to think that I'm perfect and uh, and I need them to make me feel better. And if you think about that, that's a lot of to put on another person and to not recognize about yourself.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, thank you. I think that's awesome that we're talking about this, because it's hard. This is hard subject and one of the things that I feel is, when your trust is shattered, your body can feel like it doesn't belong to you anymore, and that's real trauma, and so you want to be able to, like you mentioned earlier, to confide in people that can be helpful and to allow yourself. You know that support person is going to be so important, just like we talked about Tony, or you know, coach or whatever that understands this. But, jeff, I want to ask you, what do you say to women who feel like their safety has been violated emotionally and physically and doesn't even know where to begin with the next steps? Would you be able to help them know what those next steps are? Or, tony, you can share that as well.
Speaker 3:Well, I think Tony's got more information on that one, but I would definitely steer a person towards getting more grounding help so that they can figure out what they don't know and to be able to incorporate and understand and empower themselves.
Speaker 2:I mean really, and I think you're right and I don't want to oversimplify it, but I like I just love the theme of today's episode is that it is going to be all the things that you're going to think that are the right things to do and I'm not trying to say are the wrong things to do but I would just, I would just bring not helpful, they're not as the. They're not as helpful and it kind of goes back to this sounds. It sounds so trite, but if our natural reactions and responses were the way to heal naturally, then we would all be okay by now.
Speaker 1:I think about this so often right Like shaming myself or beating myself up.
Speaker 2:It actually helped. I would be out of a job, because then we would all just you know, oh, I beat myself up and now I feel better, and now I don't ever do it again. That isn't the way it works, and I really think about this so often, just when Dr Jeff was saying earlier, it really is that we don't know what we don't know. So what do I need to learn? What do I not know? And it goes back to this Dunning-Kruger effect, where the more that you learn that you know, the more you understand that you don't know. And that is emotional maturity, because the more emotionally immature we are, then we know, we think we know a thing. So it probably means that we can make sense of these other things. And, yeah, this is the way this all works and we do that long enough. And that implicit memory, or what it feels like to be us, is that I think I have pretty much an idea of how everything works.
Speaker 2:And I hear this so often, dr Jeff, I'm sure you do Tricia, where somebody is saying, yeah, why do I need to go to a therapist? I'm sure I already know what they're going to do. They're just going to validate me. They're going to tell me this, they're going to take my money. Or why do I even need to go to a doctor? He's just going to tell me to. You know, just take a couple. I'm going to a therapist because there are things I must blind spots, I must not know. Or and thank goodness, I went to a doctor when I thought my back was hurting. Really I was thinking, oh well, I'll give it six months and we'll see. And, as we were talking off the air here, if I would have done that I'd have even more nerve damage. So maybe the relationship damage go get help. You do not know what you don't know, and that's okay and bless your heart. And we get to this point. And now it's about what do you do? Because this is the time to heal, it really is moving forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good. Thank you both of you. Tony, paula didn't hear this from her husband. She discovered it. There's a rupture that happens with betrayal, but when discovery replaces disclosure, that rupture becomes disorientation. Can you speak to the difference between discovery and disclosure and how that impacts the healing process?
Speaker 2:You know what, and I'm not going to say I'm going to make it sound like I'm going to skirt this and want to hear your thoughts because mine are just. I feel like in the world I work in, long ago I kind of I felt like I let go of the if somebody found out, versus they were told, because either way, even when somebody told the other person, that's usually been because they're finally they've had enough and they're trying to alleviate their guilt or discomfort, because they're finally they've had enough and they're trying to alleviate their guilt or discomfort, and it still is like dropping a bomb on their partner. Or if their partner finds out, then it's this like devastation, but then from that point forward it really does. It's kind of the same from where I've been working, because now the person that receives the information or found out the information on their own, it's like let the games begin Now I still wait why? And I can't believe you, you know, either you didn't tell me or I can't even believe you told me, you know, and it's. It's so wild because I think it all falls back into the trying to make sense of and and I worry that this will sound dismissive, or, but I hope you can kind of see where I'm going with this. Is that it's I kind of go back to why didn't he tell me? Well, because he didn't and he maybe he would have had enough external pressure eventually happened, but you found it sooner than he told you, or you know, he told me.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the person even tells you to alleviate their discomfort and almost to ask for permission. And this is where I can have. It can even be a challenge at times. I feel like I'm going on a tangent. But I even struggle sometimes with the concept of confession, because sometimes somebody I just feel so bad I need to tell her, so I feel better and now I just put it on her. Now it's on you. I told you and so now you're getting mad at me. At least I told you, and that's the energy that can come into the office. So I'm not trying to dismiss that, but whether one finds it or it is told to, them.
Speaker 1:the aftershock is fairly similar.
Speaker 2:Okay, but I know that I can sound dismissive.
Speaker 1:I will admit that I think that that's kind of a trust thing, because they're trusting each other and I think that that becomes such a trust thing. But what I've seen is that women of discovery feel crazy. They start questioning not just the relationship but actually their own instincts. It's kind of like how come I didn't see this, how come I didn't feel that there was something off or wrong? And what I just like to say is they're not crazy.
Speaker 1:You're experiencing betrayal trauma, and that's why it's important to just even like do simple things, like write things down, just so you can appreciate the process.
Speaker 1:You want to get things out of your brain and out of your body so you can start the healing process, and just by writing things out, verbalizing things, that really is helpful.
Speaker 1:You want to maybe even set boundaries, even temporary ones, to reclaim your space and speak your truth to again a therapist or a coach or a safe friend, and I think that those pieces are going to be really important moving forward.
Speaker 1:But right now it's like your life is completely flipped upside down. It is so shattered, just like she says she has no idea where to start, where to begin, and it's just like you just got to live each day and just simplify your life, do anything you can to just bring down the loads, because your brain is working so hard to try to process what is even happening and you're in such a high emotional state that you don't even know what you don't want or what you do want. Like she said, she doesn't know she wants to keep that relationship alive or you know how she can even trust, how can she rebuild again. You know, I think that there's just so much compassion and grace that a person needs to give themselves in the situation and there's so many high expectations that they don't feel like they can do that. They have to show up big, they have to be there for their little kids.
Speaker 1:They have to, they have to pretend too, and if there's anything that I'd share is don't pretend this is real, and the more that you can take off the mask because he's been wearing a mask, you don't want to wear a mask too. You want to just be real, be raw, allow yourself to be vulnerable because you're in that state, and the more that you can just focus on healing you, and whether the relationship continues or you know, he's got to go on his own healing journey and we're going to talk about that next week, but the most imperative thing is you healing you and you focus on what do I need right now? What does my body need? Do I need nourishment? Do I need movement? Do I need a friend? Do I need someone to take care of my children?
Speaker 2:Sleep.
Speaker 1:What do you need? Well, sleep is most of the time, doesn't happen because, you're afraid to sleep because you're in this fight or flight and it's really hard.
Speaker 3:Your nervous system is not going to be relaxed, but it doesn't mean you don't need it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you do need sleep. I'm just saying that the more that you can focus on safety, the more that you can focus on where you're at. Do a body scan. Where are you feeling that pain? You're at, do a body scan. Where are you feeling that pain.
Speaker 1:Hone in on some of these issues and places that feel so painful and dysregulated. You will be able to start the process. So, like I said, this is a process. This takes time and it's not going to be something that you're going to be able to do quickly, overnight, even the next week, the next month, and trust. One of the biggest things that I always hear is you know, how can I trust him again? And I don't know if this came from you, tony, or who, but it was one of the things that I always share with them is it's not your job to trust them. They have to show you that they can be trusted, and so they get to take that off of their plate. I think that that's the biggest hang up that they have is how can I trust again? Well, guess what you don't have to. They get to prove that to you.
Speaker 2:Okay, and I love it because, yeah, what I always say, that is, you have to accept the fact that you may never trust them again. Because then, with that acceptance, then I'm not always trying to determine can I trust this, can I not trust this? Is this? Because it's going to take time and it's going to take, I say, emotional consistency, it's going to take stability, it's going to take transparency, it's going to take a lot of things to rebuild.
Speaker 2:So I first have to accept the fact I may never trust him again and I tell the guy like, hey, you have to accept that too, because if not the guy's going to put off this energy of look, I told you this, now you need to trust me.
Speaker 2:It's like oh no, you need to do it because it's the right thing to do. It has to be outcome, independent and over time. That'll start to build the trust. And and then if somebody says, well, how long, when will I know, I don't know start the journey, because eventually you will feel the, the guy will start to feel that what he didn't know, he didn't know. Oh, this isn't as scary as I think it is being this open or vulnerable or consistent, and then the wife will start to recognize I'm going to test for safety. We can talk about this next week too, because I tell the guy oh, of course she's now going to test for safety and that's your job to provide that emotional safety, emotional consistency, emotional stability and then be grateful that she is still there testing for safety, because that means that you have a chance to improve yourself and show her I get it. This is the thing that changed. So I really I love that part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that this is one of the most common places people or women get stuck because they're carrying so much emotional weight and that load that we were just talking about. But life doesn't stop. The dishes still need to be done, the kids still need to eat dinner. It's so imperative to bring them back to regulation, not perfection, and, like we talked about, there's certain things that you can do.
Speaker 1:Breathing Breathing is so important and I love what's called the box breathing and it's you inhale for four counts, you hold for four counts, you exhale for four counts and then you hold again for four counts. You do that six or seven times. That starts to regulate your nervous system. And it really really makes a difference when you pause for 30 seconds and you just put your hand on your heart and you continue to breathe. That reminds yourself you are okay, you are worthy, you are important. That just helps you feel like you're inside your body and because sometimes I've heard that you know you feel so disoriented you don't even feel like you're part of your body. So that's going to be a really important piece. And then again, just scanning your body what do you need? Do you need stillness? Do you need movement. Do you need nourishment? What is it that you need?
Speaker 3:and it's also going to take some trial and error to figure out when you do that Exactly. And to be able to say, okay, I think I need movement. Well, that I didn't need because, you know, or I, I need to, I need to eat. But sometimes the reaction is you need to eat too much and so, and so you have to. Just, it takes some trial and error.
Speaker 1:Yep, and I think just doing everything you can to stay present. Sometimes a cold shower, holding ice cubes, makes you feel like you're in a present state, going outside to the sunshine. There's just something about incorporating your five senses, what you see. You know five things. You see and hear and you know it's going to be just learning some new techniques here. And you know it's going to be just learning some new techniques and, just like Jeff said, it's not going to be. You know you may hear a lot of different things and you need to find what works for you, but the thing that I just really want to emphasize this again is a process and it takes time and you have there's a healing journey, and the more that you allow yourself to go on that healing journey and not try to mask things, you'll be able to move through it in a way that will be conducive and comfortable for each individual person.
Speaker 3:Well said yeah.
Speaker 1:Do any of you have any last minute thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners?
Speaker 2:Tony, tony, I mean, I just I think that there was. I'm so grateful we had this episode and for Paula's question and I can't wait to get to next week. But I think, if anything, when Tricia we were saying that I just and what Dr Jeff said in my mind I constantly have this concept of it's your own individualized, customized treatment plan, so doing you're going to figure out what does work, what doesn't work, but just know that any of it, that you're not doing any of it wrong, first time you've ever been you in this situation, it's happening, so check that out.
Speaker 2:It's like this is your chance as well to get rid of your own personal shame or guilt. So you're, and nobody wants this to happen. I know that and I know we've all mentioned this a time or two on this podcast, which I love.
Speaker 1:That's why they hide it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, but then it's like it's such an odd spot to be in where people say I wish none of this would have ever happened, but if they can embrace the moment and learn new tools, this is what helps people grow to become better themselves and can even improve the relationship, which is wild to think right now. I promise that is a wild concept, but it can be potentially a thing.
Speaker 3:My last thing is two things. Number one give yourself grace and allow for the you not knowing what to do next, and that it's okay that you don't. And then the last one, as Tricia and Tony, you both have said, is time. This is an incredible blessing to have time to let things work through. Sometimes it seems like you just can't even go on another step, but giving yourself time and saying another day will happen, the next day may be a little better, and giving yourself time will help so much.
Speaker 2:Well said.
Speaker 1:Thank you both, and I want to pause and speak directly to Paula and to anyone else listening who might feel like this story could be their own. This is not your fault. This isn't about you being less than unlovable or not enough. His pornography issues didn't start with you and while his choices carry real consequences, they are not a reflection of your worth. You are not broken and you are not to blame and, most importantly, you are not alone.
Speaker 1:Healing takes time, just like we've all been talking about. The relationship may or may not survive, but you will and you can start that healing today. There is a lot of help available, and if this story resonated with you and if you and your spouse are navigating emotional disconnection or feel like your marriage is hanging on by a thread, I want to invite you into a deeper journey. My eight-month Healing Hearts program is for couples who feel like giving up but want one last honest, guided path forward. If trust has been broken, if connection is lost, I want you to know that there is a place to begin. This is that beginning, and if this is something that resonates with you, please email me at trishajamesoncoaching at gmailcom and let's have a conversation. Please email me at trishajamisoncoachingatgmailcom and let's have a conversation. And if this episode touched your heart or made you think of someone you care about, please share it with them.
Speaker 1:We grow this community through connection, and your stories, your questions and your feedback deeply matter to us. And if you haven't already, please hit subscribe and leave us a review. It helps more than you will ever know. And don't forget to send in your brain questions. Chances are, if it's on your heart, someone else needs to hear it too.
Speaker 1:And next week we'll hear Keith's story. Keith is a husband who's been battling a hidden struggle and deep secret with pornography for years and after seeing the impact it's had on his marriage, he's finally ready to speak out. His question is raw, honest and incredibly brave. He's not excusing his choices, but he's trying to understand where they began and how to break the cycle. What happens when a man is willing to look inward, own his story and start doing the work? We hope you'll join us for the next conversation, because it's one that could change the way we talk about shame, healing and hope from the other side of betrayal. So we're here, we're listening and we're honored to be part of your healing journey. We'll see you next time on the Q&A Files. Goodbye everybody.
Speaker 1:Thanks everybody. Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files, delighted to share today's gems of wisdom with you. Your questions light up our show, fueling the engaging dialogues that make our community extra special. Keep sending your questions to trishajamesoncoaching at gmailcom. Your curiosity is our compass. Please hit, subscribe, spread the word and let's grow the circle of insight and community together. I'm Trisha Jameson, signing off. Stay curious, keep thriving and keep smiling, and I'll catch you on the next episode.
