The Q&A Files
The Q&A Files drops A Wellness Explosion
💥 BOOM! Attention Wellness Warriors. The game changer you have been waiting for is finally here. Say hello to “The Q&A Files,” where wellness meets revolution and your questions lead to new discoveries. Spearheaded by Trisha Jamison, your host, a Board Certified Functional Nutritionist. Cohost Dr. Jeff Jamison, a Board Certified Family Physician, and featured guest, Tony Overbay, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. This podcast blends three diverse perspectives to tackle your questions on health, nutrition, medicine, mental wellness, and relationships. Dive into a world of expert insights and actionable advice, all sparked by your curiosity. Tune in, ignite your wellness journey, and join the Wellness Warrior community.
The Q&A Files
68. The Hidden Struggle: A Husband's Journey Through Pornography Part 2
What happens when pornography addiction shatters trust in a marriage? This powerful part two of a three episode series begins with Keith's raw confession—a 36-year-old husband and father whose pornography habit, which began at age 13, was discovered by his wife on their shared tablet. The pain and shame of that moment sparked profound questions about healing, redemption, and rebuilding trust.
Our expert panel delves into the neurological underpinnings of pornography use, explaining the Coolidge Effect and how the brain's dopamine system gets hijacked through novelty-seeking. We explore why traditional approaches of shame and self-loathing actually reinforce problematic behaviors rather than resolving them. This isn't just about stopping a behavior—it's about understanding the adaptive patterns that began in childhood and learning to respond to emotional needs in healthier ways.
For partners like Keith's wife who find themselves asking "Why wasn't I enough?", we offer compassionate insight into why pornography use rarely has anything to do with the spouse's attractiveness or sexual satisfaction. Instead, it often indicates deeper emotional regulation challenges that predate the relationship entirely. Both the person struggling with pornography and their hurt partner need guidance, understanding, and practical strategies to move forward.
The conversation weaves between scientific understanding and heartfelt wisdom, offering practical tools like the HALT method (recognizing when you're Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired), the vital importance of the "pause" before acting on urges, and why seeking specialized help makes all the difference. We distinguish between guilt (which can motivate change) and shame (which keeps people stuck), while emphasizing that healing begins with separating actions from identity.
Whether you're struggling with pornography yourself, supporting someone who is, or trying to rebuild trust after discovery, this episode offers both compassion and clarity for the journey ahead. Stay tuned for part two, where we'll address Keith's specific questions about breaking free, rebuilding trust, and finding forgiveness in himself and his relationship.
If you or someone you love is struggling with pornography, consider Tony's "Path Back" program. www.thepathback.org
If you have a burning question for us, please send it to: trishajamisoncoaching@gmail.com! We would love hear what you have to say!
Hello and welcome to the Q&A Files, the ultimate health and wellness playground. I'm your host, tricia Jamieson, a board-certified functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner, ready to lead you through a world of health discoveries. Here we dive into a tapestry of disease prevention to nutrition, exercise, mental health and building strong relationships, all spiced with diverse perspectives. It's not just a podcast, it's a celebration of health, packed with insights and a twist of fun. Welcome aboard the Q&A Files, where your questions ignite our vibrant discussions and lead to a brighter you. Welcome, awesome listeners, to another soul-stirring episode of the Q&A Files. I'm your host, trisha Jameson, a functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner and a life coach, here to walk you through life's toughest questions and brightest hopes. I'm joined by my two incredible co-hosts, dr Jeff Jameson, a board-certified family physician whose science-meets meets compassion approach always inspires, and Tony Overbay, a licensed marriage and family therapist with a gift for cutting straight to the truth. So, jeff and Tony, I appreciate your wisdom and knowledge. It's always a pleasure to have you both here with me today.
Speaker 2:Cutting straight to the truth. Comes, tony, right now.
Speaker 3:Okay, okay, but what I'm doing is to use a very, very big word there. Tricia, did you say soul-stering?
Speaker 1:I'm Googling this Soul-stering Yep.
Speaker 3:Soul-stering. Okay, I'm on board. All right, I was looking up.
Speaker 1:What did you think? I said?
Speaker 3:I was Googling soul-stering.
Speaker 1:S-O-L-S-T-E-R-I-N-G.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm down with that. I'm okay with that. I will stir a soul or two. We're working on enunciation next. Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:So let's start with celebrations. Who's going to go first? Jeff walked in and he had the biggest grin on his face. What did you just do this morning?
Speaker 2:Oh, I went flying this morning and it's a beautiful, beautiful day and I'm learning to fly a tail wheel airplane and that is really fun it. It makes me a better pilot, keeps my rudder control much more in the groove, if you will, it's a it's a great learning experience. So I had a great time just this morning for that.
Speaker 1:Awesome, fantastic, tony. Okay, I have one, I do.
Speaker 3:I do. I was going to say one of them is just that I'm back in California, I travel. I was traveling every other week back up to my practice here, so I got to hang out with my son and his girlfriend and I'll go see my parents. But it's wild that I'm that many weeks away for our post, this surgery. That at one point seemed so far away and anyway. But I just this is me shamelessly promoting my other podcast because I have solved all things.
Speaker 3:Mental health now, finally, I did, I figured it out. Yeah, it's kind of like mapping the genome or whatever that like project. And we talk about it here where I like saying everybody's emotionally mature and I say that. And it mainly comes into play when people are calling people narcissists. And then I always like to make that point narcissistic personality disorder pretty small percentage, what study you look at? Two to four or 5%. But then I maintain but we're all emotionally immature, so to me that means a ton. But I just released an episode figuring it all out and I realized that when I say it and I'm wanting everybody else to just go, oh my gosh, yeah, I so get it. But usually they're like okay, cool, so I'm not a narcissist. And then, uh, I'm saying that's where it goes.
Speaker 2:It stops, that's where it goes yeah, and so then.
Speaker 3:but I just I just laid out one I've worked on for a long time and it just I go into the what the real examples look like and how our adaptive strategies as kids, then they're maladaptive when we become adults and that is the basis of immaturity. We're taking our little kid stuff and then we're carrying it around in our big kid bodies and into us. It makes sense, but it got us here. So thank you, inner child, but time to let the big kids take over. So I would encourage anybody to go listen to that episode.
Speaker 2:Well, which podcast is it?
Speaker 3:So I threw it on both actually Waking. Up the Narcissism and the Virtual Couch. Yeah, oh, very good, because it is.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because I actually listened to it last night and the thing that I found fascinating that's the very thing that I'm working on in one of my modules is exactly what you shared, so I thought we are definitely got these vibes going on.
Speaker 3:So I was pretty excited about that too.
Speaker 1:So it will be good. So I'm celebrating this blue sky and it's supposed to be 71 degrees here today in Spokane, and it is an absolute lovely day with the blossoms going crazy and I'm really excited to see lilacs coming on. We're the lilac city. I love lilacs, my favorite flower, so it's a gorgeous day here.
Speaker 3:Now, dr Jeff and I, I train my male clients that when our wives mention flowers and sunsets, we go oh man, that's yeah, I love that. That sounds great, oh how romantic, that sounds romantic.
Speaker 1:Well done Okay okay, gentlemen, if we could just get some.
Speaker 2:If we could just have a beach to walk hand in hand on the beach.
Speaker 1:I'm good with that. Yeah, let's go to a beach, honey.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think we will, I think we will.
Speaker 1:All right, thank you. Now let's ease into something tender and real. Today we're stepping into a space that's very complex and full of courage. So last week we shared Paula's story a wife navigating the heartbreak of discovering her husband's hidden struggle with pornography. Her pain and questions about trust and worth struck a chord with so many of you. Now we're turning the lens to Keith, a man who's grappling with his own side of this issue. Keith's question came in recently and it isn't tied to Paula's story. They're not a couple, but it echoes the same theme how pornography can fracture trust and intimacy and what it takes to heal. Now, keith's vulnerability and desire to change make this conversation so powerful, so let's dive into his story with open hearts. Keith writes I'm 36, married to my wife for 12 years and we have two amazing kids, eight and 10.
Speaker 1:She's my rock, my home, my love, my life, but I've been hiding a secret that's tearing me apart. It started when I was 13 years old, when I stumbled across pornography online one restless night. What felt like innocent curiosity grew into a habit I couldn't shake. Over time, it pulled me into darker places. I never imagined going Explicit chats, paid subscriptions that led me into things that I never could imagine doing either. I can't believe that was even me. I'm horrified at who I've become. Every time I swear I'll stop, I fall back, deleting browser histories, installing blockers, praying for strength, only to end up in the same dark place. A month ago my wife found out. She saw my search history on our share tablet and the pain in her eyes was like I had just stabbed her. She didn't yell, she just cried quietly and asked why wasn't I enough? I had no words.
Speaker 1:The shame is crushing. I feel like a monster, a fraud who's betrayed the woman I cherish and the family we've built together. I'm terrified. I've destroyed our marriage and scarred our kids forever. My heart aches knowing I've made her question her worth, when she's everything to me. I've tried so hard to stop.
Speaker 1:I've gone weeks, even months, like I mentioned, using blockers, praying, confessing to a friend, but stress or disconnection always drags me back. I'm living a double life the husband and dad who adores his family and the stranger I despise and absolutely hate. I don't want to be this man lying and hiding. I want to be the husband and father they deserve, but I'm scared. I'm too far gone. Why can't I break free? How do I rebuild my wife's trust when I'm drowning in guilt? How do I forgive myself for shattering her heart? I'm begging for a way out. Please help me. That's heavy. So Keith's story is so raw and heavy his shame, his shock and how far he's fallen, his deep love for his wife and kids and his desperate hope to change. So his questions why can't he break free, how to rebuild trust and how to forgive himself are a heartfelt cry for a path forward. So I'm so grateful we have Tony and Dr Jeff here with us today. Tony, you've guided many men through struggles like Keith's, and your program, what is called Pathback, that's right.
Speaker 3:Thank you, pathbackrecoverycom. I believe, or reach out to me.
Speaker 1:And it's designed to help men caught in the cycle to find their way out. So, before we dive into Keith's questions, can you share a little bit about the Pathback and how?
Speaker 3:it could support someone like Keith. The best part of it, because I just think that it is about connection with other guys, which maybe we'll find some time to get to that today. But what I address in the path back is I really believe that I look at people turning to pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism. We throw around the term sex addict or pornography addict a lot, but there actually is not a diagnosis of pornography addiction. You could be looking at impulse control disorder or compulsive behaviors, but most of the people that I find that are saying that they are a porn addict. They're not. It's something they turn to as a coping mechanism.
Speaker 3:And I have identified five areas that I think are when people primarily turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms, whether it's drinking, gambling, sex, porn. It could be working, it could be you name it and it's when they don't feel connected in their marriage or they don't feel like a good parent, when they're not connected in their faith, their health or their career. And so the path back there are again. There are modules, there are things to do, but I think in the calls I like to make the joke that we don't talk about pornography very often because really there's a, and I don't want to jump ahead, but you need to know that you're okay.
Speaker 3:You're a human going through life for the first time and this happened and I just I will maintain that I wrote down a lot of things that he said. I'm horrified who I've become. You know that I'm a monster. I'm terrified, I'm scared Double life I'm drugged back. I mean that sounds so. We all, I mean we took a breath when you were done reading that and my heart goes out for him because and it's ironic this episode I was talking about earlier that I feel like I jokingly solved everything, is that is our little kid version of us showing up as an adult saying I need to beat myself up in order to get help or to change. And if that was the recipe, we would not need Pathback, we would not need your course, my courses, we wouldn't need therapists or coaches, because we're really good at beating ourselves up and so far that is. It doesn't work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and personal shame, just never helped anyone. No, you know, guilt can motivate.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, and I think, I think that if you feel guilt and you're like I, just you know this is something I need to do different. I need to quit smoking, I need to stop pornography, I need to quit drinking, and this is I. I feel guilt about those things and it motivates you to change. That's great.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:However, shame, in my opinion, is where it does the opposite. It just makes you feel more stuck, it makes you feel more unwell and it makes you feel like you can't progress, and it actually makes you dive deeper into whatever you're having trouble with the part where and I have people often say that they and I'm grateful when somebody is very open and vulnerable that they don't truly understand the difference between guilt and shame.
Speaker 3:And yeah, guilt is I feel bad, shame is I am bad. And if we go back to what Trish and I are talking about with the emotional immaturity, that that was a survival mechanism as a kid, it was an adaptation to a situation that we were going through. So when we would eventually say, man, I am just so bad, that was most likely a time where a parent then maybe would come around and say, hey, you're okay, everything's going to be okay. And so then we take that adaptation because it worked for our little child and we bring it into adulthood and our big bodies and we still think that that's going to work. So that's where this episode I'm talking about that I did on my podcast was giving yourself grace, thanking the inner child that it got us where we are. You are indeed alive and so thank you. That was an adaptation. Now it's maladaptive, now it's in the way, so it's time to again pass the baton. Thank you, inner child. But now that is not the right tool, because when we go to shame, then we're doing that A lot of internal as an adult, and so then there isn't anybody there that's going to say it's okay, especially if you feel like you have hurt somebody and somebody has been blindsided and they are reacting. So that's where I go back to. You have to know you're okay. This is where you have to reparent, you have to heal your inner child and that has to.
Speaker 3:I would say unfortunately, but no, fortunately that will come from you. So that's why this has happened. He feels the way he feels and right now, the more he beats himself up, it's almost selfish. I think we've talked here. I did an episode a while ago where I said the selfishness of shame which I feel like is saying, or I think it's somebody who's down on the ground and I'm saying, hey, let me kick you. You know, while you feel some shame also, you're being pretty selfish. So I realized that's a pretty tough concept, right, but if somebody, if he's like I just feel so bad now that I know what I've done to my wife and I can't believe it, it's okay, I'm okay, yeah, right, it's for her to rescue him, exactly, yeah, which is not ideal right now. Which?
Speaker 2:then turns all the focus off of the issues and onto your poor, poor me position, yep.
Speaker 1:And that rescuing loop is so real. I appreciate, though, how people get into this shame trap, and I think it's really imperative, just like you said to, but you know, when somebody's in the shame cycle, it's really hard for them to start thinking for sure cognitively and going, okay, well, what's creating the shame? How do I go back and start healing my inner child? So what is the first step you can think of in somebody in that state of mind that they can do because they're in fight or flight, they're in this hyper mode?
Speaker 3:I was thinking of you and Critter Brain.
Speaker 1:Critter Brain. They're in Critter Brain, yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think it's such a good question because my first recommendation is something that will literally never happen, you know. So maybe it's until somebody figures out a time machine, but I just want to say it's a don't, don't do that. Basically, it basically is that okay, I want to jokingly say, richie, take that out. But no, that was very real. But it's like I wish everybody could hear proactively that if you ever get caught, or if you were ever discovered, or if you ever just decide you need to confess, hold up.
Speaker 3:How about you talk to a professional therapist or a coach? Because a lot of times, if the person gets caught, what happens? They feel horrible. And now, what do I do to get rid of that discomfort? I'm gonna put it right back over on you, whether I know it or not. I mean, shame is me saying I need you to manage my emotions right now because I can't manage my own, and so the person needs to, as quickly as they can, seek help from an outside source who knows this area. Because, yeah, they're going to have to process a lot, and this is going to sound maybe a little bit bad of me, but having done this for a long time and I'm pretty picky and choosy about who I work with. Sometimes I'll get somebody new and it breaks my heart. It also is frustrating to think of how much work is ahead when they are coming into you and they're convinced they are horrible, they are bad Cause.
Speaker 3:It's almost like now they're coming into you because they need somebody to just say yeah, you are really bad, you know yeah, and it's like not not going to happen, or because it's like no, I tell me how you're feeling, because you're human and this is the first time you're going through life as you and this has happened and there's some acceptance, and let's learn how to manage my emotions. Change my relationship with my emotions. Don't try to shove them down, don't try to push them away. Uh, don't try to hand them over to somebody else to manage. So I just think there's so much there's some people don't get help right away that they're trying to co-regulate each other, and that's a mess.
Speaker 2:And again, the reason for doing that is so that you don't verbally vomit on your loved ones, yeah, and so that you can process some of that beforehand, because there's a deep feeling of I need to confess this to whoever I harmed, which is a really important thing at some point.
Speaker 1:But you have to know how to deal with your own emotions first yeah, exactly, you know, and just like he's talking about, you know shame can feel like he's defined by his worst choices yeah, right and that is where we have to understand that it's his love for his family. He's showing that he cares, so it's focusing on who he is at his core, not who he is by his choices.
Speaker 3:I like that. Can I say thank you for that Because I think the part I think about I love your guys' take on this. But he said double life and I've even been pretty dramatic and said, man, the double lives that people lead with addiction and it's like are unhealthy coping mechanisms. And now I have such a different understanding of that is this whole concept of whole object relations. It's when they are present with their kids. They are present with their kids when they are acting out. They are acting out when they're having good moments with their spouse. They're having good moments with their spouse.
Speaker 3:It's easy to now jump into the all or nothing black or white. It was, oh my gosh, I was a fraud. No, you were a good dad when you were a good dad and you were serving well in a church position, when you were and you were having really good connection with your spouse. It's actually those are the things that make it more difficult, because then one beats themselves up and says, well then, why am I doing this? Versus check this out, I can be here, I do feel like a good dad and I do this because I have to be able to step back and notice. This is how I show up in these different situations because that's the data we need and it's absent of the I'm doing it wrong. What's wrong with me? I'm a monster, you know. So the double life, oh, of course, like there's an acceptance there, might even have a triple life, I don't even know. I don't know how many lives one could fit in there. But that's the part where notice that, accept it and now we can work with it. And that's where that episode where I've basically figured out all of life that I'm talking about earlier is.
Speaker 3:It's wild when you can start working these ways of oh, I do go back to my all or nothing, black or white thinking. That is immature. Or there's immaturity and I need you to manage my emotions, saying you know, okay, so this is obviously means that it's about me. I wasn't enough, I mean I, I, and that's that's the normal response, a hundred percent.
Speaker 3:But it's like it is our immature way that now, well, obviously this is about me versus man, tell me about what is happening, what is this about? And then now I feel like it's about me, but that's a me thing. But if I just say it's about me now, now prove to me that it's about me, but that's a me thing. But if I just say it's about me, now, now prove to me that it's not, when he's like, well, it's not, cause at that point then she's saying I don't agree. So I need you to make me feel better about this assumption I'm making. And that's where I start looking at that. That game's kind of rigged, because I don't like the way I feel. I think it's your fault. Now you need to make me feel better, even though I'm not really sure what I need right now. So start dancing.
Speaker 1:Well, I think too to speak into that a little bit I think that the clients that I work with anyway too, is if you're able to like I call the green zone be thinking in the green zone. Your CEO is online, you're going to be able to logically come up with those questions. But because you're not either, you just got hit with a hammer over the head.
Speaker 3:That CEO is gone right now. Yes, and so it's hard. They resigned.
Speaker 1:So I don't know if, for me, I don't think that this is about emotional maturity. It's like you are so shocked you don't even have time to process it, and so I think that taking a moment I mean, this is when it takes time, and I think that a lot of women get to this place, but definitely not at the beginning. From what I've seen, it's like I just can't like that's what.
Speaker 3:I want to say You're so right. This is where and I'm sorry to cut you off so much, but it's like I love this, because they just have to get to the point where now they are listening to us or they're looking for help, but you handle it the way you handled it and it just was, and neither of you did it wrong or bad, because I guess that's I like what you're saying, because I would say it's pretty much impossible to do it a good way, because it is happening.
Speaker 2:You cannot be emotionally connected. I mean, if you are not emotionally connected to the person and they said, hey, this and that happened, they'll go oh, that sounds terrible. But if you are emotionally connected and you love the person and you're in an intimate relationship that is tough, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think that that is exactly why the husband is so absolutely freaked out about the fallout, because there is such an emotional connection and he completely understands that if I share this information, she finds out all these things are exposed.
Speaker 2:Then there's no way and there's consequences that may happen.
Speaker 2:There's no way that she's going to understand that it's not about her, that it's about my own insecurities, all the junk that I've been dealing with since I was 13 or eight, or there's so many stories out there that it started so young yeah but I think that in so doing that creates this quagmire of just this icky soup that they're both in and they cannot get out of it and I think that the a difficult thing with pornography, especially when it, when you're sexualized by pornography at such an early age that you don't know what you don't know. Then I have no idea, I'm curious. I know that when I observe this material or consume it in whatever way I am, that I have a certain feeling and it helps me dissociate from the negative things of my life. And all of a sudden, sudden it becomes a coping mechanism that you had no idea was going to happen and you wouldn't have actually chose if you had any cognitive ability at that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Exactly, exactly. So, before we move on, I just wanted to one of the things that I when I'm working with these clients because what you say to yourself is what you believe he keeps calling himself a monster.
Speaker 3:He's a fraud.
Speaker 1:I mean. So he's going to show up like that, and it's not about not saying those things, but it's if he feels like he's a failure. He can say I feel like I'm a failure, but then replacing it with the person that he is. So he's also a person that's learning and he's growing and he's trying to figure life out, and so sometimes those really hard accusations that you make about yourself, which we're so good at, all of us that can be your focus.
Speaker 1:Or you can say I'm enough and I'm working on it and I'm trying to connect with someone you know and I'm trying to become the best person I can be, but I've got a lot of stuff that I have to go through and work through in order to be that person. So I really try to stop them from saying because I've heard that often I'm a monster, I'm a terrible person, I, you know, I can never be trusted again. And when you start putting those thoughts in your brain, then it comes to fruition.
Speaker 2:Those things will happen and so you just try to change that narrative. I love this so much, tricia, and I look at this also not only in the realm of pornography or the way you're, you know, trying to get out of a difficult situation like this. It also applies to people who say my anxiety or my depression or my bipolar disease, these mental health issues are not the who you are. This is not your identity, and I would just as this. I would try and have people change their own narrative to say when I feel anxiety, when I feel depressed when, I have emotions that go up and down, when I feel that I am out of control with my emotions.
Speaker 2:You know that doesn't define who you are. That just is part of the life that you have.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Okay, I'll add a trio here and bring us all together too. This is a quote I love. The strongest force in the human personality is to act in alignment with how you see yourself. So, however you identify yourself, you're going to find a way back to your home base. Yeah, exactly, and this is why I'm not a fan of when someone labels themselves fill in the blank Right themselves fill in the blank right. I especially addict, whatever addict it is yeah, because, then if I, because I could be doing really, really well.
Speaker 2:But don't forget, I'm an addict, so I'm going to find a way back to that home base and I think that there are some people that are addicts of whatever, whether it's pornography, alcohol, other drugs, whatever it helps them to stay focused on returning themselves to normalcy by not letting go of that, that need to stay on top of it yeah, it's like I'm an addict, because yes, I'm saying it's yeah and so but if it goes in the negative, where you're saying to yourself or other people saying to you oh well, you'll never amount to anything because you're an addict or you're never going to get over this because you're an addict.
Speaker 2:That's where the problem becomes more defeated rather than having hope.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think too, there's a lot of people, I believe, that struggle with that, because I feel like they're angry and so I feel like they also want them to be the addict. It's like I think it helps them make more sense of the situation and what's going on for them.
Speaker 3:For the other, person for the spouse.
Speaker 1:So it's like well, I do think you're an addict because of all these things that have happened and the things that you've done, and so, therefore, I think it gives them permission to see them, as I guess, broken, so then they can go get help.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I kind of see both sides here of the aisle. It's like on the one side, I think that when they can make sense of that term, then I feel like sometimes they can have more compassion and grace for them, feel like sometimes they can have more compassion and grace for them. But when they're focusing on that, this is more of a. This isn't necessarily about the spouse, because it's so hard not to make it about you. They're looking at, you know, naked women. How can that not be about the spouse? So it's so hard for them to wrap their head around.
Speaker 1:Oh, this is just about stress, this is just about disconnection or or something that they're missing. It's like, no, no, no, this has to be about me, because if I fulfilled you, you wouldn't be going to these sites and, and you know, focusing on all their, these other terrible things. So I just want to kind of speak into that, because I appreciate both sides of the aisle and where the women's coming from and also, but I think I appreciate the men too, because, understanding so much more than I ever have, especially working with clients, it's I can see when, just like you were talking about Tony, you're focusing on the younger child and parents and how they grew up, and it's not about placing blame on parents, but it definitely is helping the person recognize these tendencies and behaviors that have come from certain behaviors from the parents. So if they're not, heard, they're not listened.
Speaker 1:Yes. So what happens? How do people start to gaslight, how do they start to manipulate situations or project themselves or become more emotionally immature?
Speaker 1:I mean all of those behaviors stemmed from a childhood or something, an origin deep down that came from that and so understanding that, especially in a lot of times that the men, when they're boys, you know it does start off with curiosity and then you know I believe in Satan, I believe in God, and so I think that you know Satan's very real Call this the plague of the century.
Speaker 1:But I really believe that it's true that he knows how to manipulate children into being more curious and even you know, and then tapping into all these different feelings inside them and that a lot of that's just very normal. But then it goes into abnormal viewing and hiding and you know he talks a lot about hiding and lying and because they can't expose what they're doing, because it's so shameful, exactly what we were just talking about. So if we could, if we could start early and help children understand shame, understand that this is not who you are, but this is an action that you're doing that doesn't make you feel good but it's not who you're becoming, because I think that that shame, because it's not talked about you can't, it's so embarrassing, all these different things then they go deep and they go down into darker places.
Speaker 2:And I think that it's important that parents that might be listening to this recognize that this can start early in a child's life. This is so prevalent.
Speaker 1:That's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I mean early, I mean 13 is kind of on the late end. Yeah, it is, it's wild, okay, you know 9, 10 is when usually most children have some early exposures to pornography of some kind. Well, I think now, but he's older, so I think that that would make sense For this gentleman now, yes, I get that, so I think 13 is more like eight or nine now.
Speaker 2:I agree, yeah, yeah, and it's so prevalent. It used to be that people in mine and Tony's era we had to go find it. It had to be an active thing, and I don't think that there's a young man growing up, or a young woman in many cases, that haven't had some exposure to pornography at this point. And so people dabble in different levels. It's a spectrum. Some people go, oh, you know, that's interesting, and then that's all it becomes. Then there's the people who use it once or twice a year, you know, because of whatever stresses they're under, and then there are people who use it often, and there's all the spectrum in between.
Speaker 2:And it sounds like Keith has gotten into the latter end of that, where he's using it more frequently and it's become a coping mechanism that's really hard for him to let go of, because he gets a benefit for it. You know, it's a part of his life that he doesn't like, but it also helps him cope with the rest of his life, and I'm not saying that it's appropriate, but I am saying that it's serving a purpose that allows him to move forward in a way that allows him to be who he is or he wants to be with his family. But there are still so many detrimental things even in that thinking.
Speaker 1:And I think that that's what's so challenging for spouses is to understand that that is even a coping mechanism. It's like how in the world could that possibly be a coping mechanism. I go back to the.
Speaker 3:Every behavior is a need-seeking behavior and that's where I was going to say when you were talking about yeah, it makes sense that, how would she not think it's about her?
Speaker 3:But he has been coping this way and it wasn't a childhood adaptation as a way to get a dopamine dump to check out, to feel excited. So that's the coping, that's the adaptation that he brings into the marriage, and so many people I work with they do assume that when I get married then it will go away. But it is a coping. That's why I go so big on it's a coping mechanism that they bring into the marriage and it was an adaptation that served them to some point. So it doesn't matter how much sex they're having, or so when she's saying, if I fulfilled you, you wouldn't do this, that's again where I want to take a step back and that's why I go so big on the concept of a coping mechanism. There's the idea that some coping mechanisms are more socially acceptable. Mine has always been exercise, I mean it just has, and sometimes I feel very fortunate, not sometimes.
Speaker 3:I often feel very fortunate that mine has had a social acceptability, but I now recognize that it was my so desperate need to feel seen or understood or matter Couldn't stop at a half marathon Couldn't stop at a full marathon had to run a hundred miles. You know that's excessive. But, it's like so. It was an adaptive need seeking behavior to help me cope with things. But now maybe spinal surgery was the thing that said it did you well for a while, but a little maladaptive over time.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, thank you for sharing that. And I think too that you know, especially at a 13-year-old and younger, their little brains are like sponges and it's soaking up the instant reward of the dopamine dump. And I think too, when they get that dopamine hit, it creates a shortcut for his brain and it still craves more, which I think sometimes pushes him toward even riskier behaviors, especially as he gets older, so he can continue to feel that rush again. So I appreciate that piece as I've learned more about how they start that process and when they're stressed and when they're trying to figure life out and they feel awkward or uncomfortable out, and they feel awkward or uncomfortable. That makes them feel, you know, for a very short time it makes them feel okay and so, yeah, okay, no, this is really good.
Speaker 3:It's. This is where I wanted to get a little nerdy when he said the the, the part where he's moved on to things that he never thought he would do. Right, um, there's a concept called the coolidge effect and there's a, the person I think explained this. The best is this uh, kevin mageris. He's a psychiatrist called the Coolidge effect, and there's a the person I think explained this the best is this Kevin Majerus. He's a psychiatrist that works out of Harvard Medical School, and so, oh and this goes back to what Jeff was talking about yeah, and Jeff and my day, my dad had a stash of magazines that were under a get rid of the vanity in the bathroom, so I had to be home, he had to be gone. You know I had to be home, he had to be gone. You know I had to wait. So there were, it just wasn't a constant flood of that. It was. So kids now with their phones and with the way that access to social media and streaming video I think this will make sense here. So this Coolidge effect, kevin Majera said scientists have discovered that if you place a male rat in a cage with a receptive female, they will mate. But once done, the male rat will not mate more times, even if the female is still receptive. He loses sexual interest. But if right after you put in another willing female, he will immediately mate again, and then a third, and so on until he nearly dies. And that effect has been found in every and he says every animal studied, and this is called the Coolidge effect.
Speaker 3:Now that's where we get into the concept of dopamine. So dopamine is the drug of desire. When you see something desirable, your brain pours out dopamine, saying go for it, do it, do whatever it takes. So then dopamine fixes your attention on that desirable object, giving you the power of concentration, and this is why I thought it makes so much sense. So when somebody clicks and sees a new pornographic image, his lower brain thinks this is the real thing, this is the lady he must win over with all his might. And so he gets an enormous dopamine flood in his upper brain, causing a wild amount of electrical energy.
Speaker 3:The first exposure to a new female who is a potential mate wasn't something that happened to a lot of our early ancestors. Maybe once in their lives Early caveman poured out all the dopamine you know, or you see the animal kingdom, the gorilla beats his chest and throws dirt and stuff around and they're like it is. I will do everything I can to get this one willing female. So the brain thinks this is a really big deal. It doesn't know that now the game has completely changed. It doesn't understand that these are virtual females only. So with each new one it causes another flood of dopamine, time after time, click after click. As long as he continues, it's a dopamine binge.
Speaker 3:Here's why pornography causes a vicious circle. When somebody views pornography, he gets overstimulated by dopamine, so his brain destroys some dopamine receptors. This makes him feel depleted. So he goes back to pornography, but having fewer dopamine receptors. This time it requires more to get the same dopamine thrill, but this causes his brain to destroy more receptors, so he feels an even greater need for pornography to stimulate him.
Speaker 3:So as guys keep gaming the dopamine system, they have to find they have to use pornography for longer and longer periods to have the same effect and they have to visit more and more sites. You have to stimulate. Then eventually another emotion, fear or disgust or shock or surprise. So for porn use you need to start moving to kinkier things, things that make you afraid or things that make you feel a bit sick, and so you start experimenting with various perversions, and that's where I have seen, time after time time, somebody that is telling me they're working on it and they're not worried about that.
Speaker 3:I'll bring awareness about the Coolidge effect often, and I think it does go back to if it's there and it's a coping mechanism and it's available and it becomes almost a ritual. Then the person this is what's happening. So then they typically do spend more and more time, longer and longer, and I've worked with plenty of people not trying to be dramatic, but who would have never in a million years thought that they would start looking at what they're looking at or then start acting outside of looking at images to go to be, because that's where people need the dopamine fast and they need to be able to get away from devices or to be able to even just get a reset, because that will avoid getting on to those worse and worse areas the brain is so amazing in this.
Speaker 2:I just think this is such a cool thing how it adapts to things. This is a similar thing that we see in medicine. That's called the opioid analgesic effect, where if you're a person that has a chronic pain issue and you're treated with an opioid, then over time that opioid won't work as well because your body down-regulates the amount of opioid receptors so that you need more opioid in order to get the same effect, and so it's a very interesting effect that also that Coolidge obviously came up with.
Speaker 3:Actually, I have to tell you, dr Jeff the reason it's called the Coolidge effect is kind of funny. It's from President Coolidge and apparently they were touring a poultry factory and I will get this story wrong. But it's called the Coolidge Effect is kind of funny. It's from President Coolidge and apparently they were touring a poultry factory and I will get this story wrong, but it's really funny.
Speaker 3:And so then Mrs Coolidge walks by and you can never tell if this is a wives' tale. But I mean it is literally called the Coolidge Effect and where they tell the female that the male can mate over and over again, like they're pointing that out about this male rooster. Then when the president comes by they tell him that. Oh, she says, make sure and tell that to the president when he comes through this part of the tour. So when the president comes then he just says, wait, you're saying it's with more than one female. Like, so then it was, you know, mic drop, so she thought she got him, and then he's saying yeah, oh my gosh yeah right, I know insert symbol and you know drum.
Speaker 3:Anyway, I didn't mean to cut you off, but it's like that is. That is a funny part. That is why it's called the coolidge effect.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting interesting, I didn't know but.
Speaker 3:but I like where you're going with this, dr jeff, because I've never understood that opioid part where people, yeah, yeah, they need more and more. It makes sense Opioid-induced hyperalgesia.
Speaker 2:So basically, when you're not under opioid effect, then what you normally might've called yourself a person with high pain tolerance, you become a person with low pain tolerance, and even the smallest amount of pain seems like a lot of pain, and this is a it's a well-known effect and one of the downsides to using long-term opioids. Wow, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is fascinating, actually, Going back to Keith's question, when he talks about how he has spiraled into dark places explicit chats, paid subscriptions and he stunned himself asking why can't I break free? And, despite his efforts, what might be driving this escalation and how can he uncover those deeper triggers? So we've talked a little bit about that, but where can he start the process of kind of his first steps?
Speaker 3:And again, in a perfect world it is uncomfortable and it is go find a therapist or a coach that specializes, because often I do find that people go to people that don't specialize and then it is more of just a check the box. And I think Jeff was talking about yeah, the guy will have a need to confess. And then this is where I do view this as a bit of the and I know I'm in this emotionally immature lens currently, but it is not helpful. I mean, it's a step. I was going to say confession. When somebody says, okay, fine, I'll go, first of all, that is not the attitude to then go get help. But then I'm going to go because I want to check the box. So then I'm going to go and I'm basically okay, I did it, and I'm just basically confessing. And then I can have the person say, hey, you're not like, even if they came to me, it was okay. Yeah, no, you're a human and you're not broken and you're going to figure this out and whatever. Well, that makes the person feel better. So now I feel better, so I'm good and I did it and that. So they need to go get help.
Speaker 3:But but even in a grand scheme of things, if they can start listening to more things, reading more things. Just don't ignore it. And that's what the brain does so often. Or people do in their more emotionally immature state is okay, no, I, I get it now, I won't do it again. That makes them feel better in that moment and so a lot of people that are going to hear this at some point you know they're going to say, okay, no, that makes sense, get it now. I don't even really need to go talk to anybody. Got Coolidge effect, got it. I need to not beat myself up. You the discomfort of looking for help. It will be uncomfortable, I don't need help. So he's still at that space of. He still wants to hide and not divulge, even though he feels like he's divulged.
Speaker 1:He still hasn't allowed himself to be humble enough. I feel like to seek that help because he just wants to control what he can control. So I feel like these patterns often stem from we just kind of talked about this. You know the unaddressed emotions, and that could be from stress. You know the extra stress is from work or a disconnection at home. At times it could create anything. That's what we've been talking about and it could also be from old feelings of inadequacy.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I try to have my couples do is to begin to notice what's happening inside him before he hits the urge, because so often there's these triggers and you kind of start to feel something and so it's taking a second before that action happens. And pause I love that word, that's my favorite word is pause and to just breathe, because when you can get oxygen to the brain you can start, put your CEO back online and you're not going after these urges like you can just start to think, you can allow yourself to to think, and so, for instance, if somebody you know he had a long day and the kids are arguing, he feels overwhelmed. If somebody you know he had a long day and the kids are arguing. He feels overwhelmed, is just taking a pause and recognizing am I stressed, am I lonely and I love the halt you know, hungry.
Speaker 3:What is it? Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. There's a better one. That's a blast and the only reason I want to. I never remember what it all is and I just like the B because it's bored and I think one of the main triggers is boredom People often think that it's I saw. I saw a beautiful woman or something it's like. It's bored, bored and accessible, I think is often the main ones really.
Speaker 1:So I think it's to just kind of go a little deeper inside and allow yourself to feel some of these, when you start to feel a trigger, and to put something else in that place, whether deep breathing, just writing a couple thoughts down how he's feeling in a notebook. What do you think about these apps? There's an app called Fortify. Do they really offer daily progress?
Speaker 3:I heard it's like well, this is what I like. I always like when we start talking like the therapist and coach, just like chocolate, peanut butter and orisa's, because I, I notice right now it's hard for me to not just wanted to say I mean, you know what the person, as long as they're now aware they weren't. You know, they didn't know what they didn't know. Now they know, but they're not going to do like I.
Speaker 3:I know that this is the way that most things play out, but that part where now they're aware but they don't really do, is often the longest period. And they got to get to the part where they're doing more than they don't and eventually they become and and I, and so it's still so funny in my inherent nature to just I want to tell somebody what to do, but it's still like I mean, and I like when you're saying, hey, do this, like, write it down, take a breath, you know, and I think that's where I always make the joke about, and then, if you don't, then let me know. You know what Trish's advice is.
Speaker 1:We'll come up with something else.
Speaker 3:And what I like about that is. So the apps they're great, except for when they don't work. They work until they don't. So I have had many clients start them, stop them, start them, stop them. And then they're like man, I can't even stay on the app, and so my job is like saying okay, did it, was it working? Well, totally was. But then I stopped using it and like let's go back to it. It totally was, so then start using it again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I? But what if I don't keep it up? Well, we'll see about that. You know, let's do it until you don't. And if you don't, why didn't you? Because sometimes it's honestly yeah, I forgot about it, I'm like cool. What are ways that we can work on to not forget and so that's? Where I think people are almost trying to convince themselves see how broken I am. I might as well just go do it again.
Speaker 2:But here's where accountability and commitment therapy comes in. I mean, this is where you've got to come up with your own. Why?
Speaker 3:Eventually for sure.
Speaker 1:You've got to come up with your own. Why? Eventually for sure, you've got to come up with your own. What am I going to do instead? That humility piece?
Speaker 2:absolutely yes. You build in the pause and then you come up with your own. Here's what I'm going to do instead, before I get down that slippery slope and into the middle of the quagmire. If a person can go, all right, whenever this happens, what I'm going to do is I'm going to call my wife, or I'm going to get up and walk away from the computer and do something else, or whatever it is.
Speaker 2:And whatever that is. If you catch yourself early, maybe it's just late at night and you just need to go to bed.
Speaker 3:Then go to bed. Go to bed. Yes, that's Jeff Smith. That tired piece is real.
Speaker 2:You know it'll help you so much, and it's finding out what you need to do and trying them on. You can't just go well, if I do this, then always it will work. Absolutely. You can't just go well, if I do this, then always it will work. There's no, always in the realm of people and knowing that people are not always, never, and black and white and all those things, you have to be able to have a spectrum of options.
Speaker 3:Yeah, things work until they don't. They work until they don't, and that doesn't mean that it didn't work or that it now okay.
Speaker 2:Or it won't work in the future.
Speaker 3:It won't work in the future, and that's the continual moving forward in that there's an absence of shame in that thing that one is doing dime.
Speaker 1:How you do one thing is how you do everything. So if that person oftentimes just gives up and quits, something gets too hard and they don't want to do it, that may be a personality issue. Or when a person is focusing on something for the wrong reason, that could also be why he stops. If he's doing it for the spouse and not for himself, then that can create resentment and but it can create the non-consistency he's not, he's not following through because he's he doesn't really mean it, he's just doing it for her.
Speaker 3:Which is funny too, tricia, because I and this is where I go back to your right and then also but if a guy doesn't know what he doesn't know, and then because how many?
Speaker 3:times have I heard somebody say I just got to do it, I just got to, I just got to do whatever I got to do to save this marriage. I do whatever I got to do to and it's like I know that's actually not the case. You and he's like man. I'm not even doing me right, right now. I must really be bad where it's like man. I hear you Tell me more about it, because that makes sense. Of course I want to save my marriage. I'm terrified. But then that's me saying I just need somebody to tell me exactly what to do. I can do it, check the boxes and we're good. We're good Then that isn't about internal change, or yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's what you just said, or Jeff's just said, that you know it will work until it doesn't work because he hasn't internally figured out that this is, this is for him. He really, truly wants to make that change and one of the things that I've had clients say is I can't imagine being someone different. This has been such a part of my life for so long. I don't even know what that looks like and I can't even imagine. I don't think I can do it.
Speaker 3:I mean, they've already given up before they've even tried, because it's like they can't imagine life without having these mechanisms that he's been in place absolutely yeah yeah, well, I think tony's got to get going here and yeah but, man, if we have to pick up another episode of this too, you can tell that it's something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because we're like right in the middle, we we need to continue focusing on some of these other questions that he's asked. I don't want to just leave him hanging, so let's just get on next week and we'll start again right where we left off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, keith, hang on we're where we got to work on those things, work on those things. We'll start again right where we left off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Keith, hang on.
Speaker 3:Hang on, Keith Work on those things, work on those things. We'll get back to you, that's right.
Speaker 1:Okay, super Wow. We're just scratching the surface of Keith's powerful story and there's so much more to unpack His struggle to break the cycle, rebuild trust with his wife and find forgiveness for himself. We're going to dive deeper into these questions next week in part two, where we'll pick up right where we left off with Tony, jeff and myself. So stay tuned for more practical steps, heartfelt insights and hope for Keith's journey. You won't want to miss it, keith. We hear you, we see you and you're not alone in this struggle. Your courage to share your pain is a huge step forward and there's hope for healing. If you're battling pornography and need extra support, tony's the Path Back program is an incredible resource. Reach out to him and we'll include the contact information in the show notes below. And for couples who are struggling with no connection, barely speaking, have had betrayal, trauma, navigating heartache or feeling like the love you once had has faded or is lost, please know there's a way forward. My eight-month Healing Hearts program is a comprehensive, transformative journey designed to help you build trust, rediscover intimacy and help heal deep wounds. With one-on-one coaching calls, engaging worksheets and fun activities and tools to bring you closer together than ever, you will find that love again, you will find that beauty on the other side. It's a space to find clarity and hope. So please reach out to me at TrishaJamisonCoaching at gmailcom to start the conversation today To our amazing listeners.
Speaker 1:If this episode moved you, please share it with someone who needs it and hit subscribe. Please leave us a review and help us grow this beautiful community of hearts just like yours. Your stories and questions are what make this space so special. So please send us your questions at Trisha Jamisonaching at gmailcom, and thank you for joining us today. Stay strong, keep shining and we'll see you next week for part two of Key Story. Goodbye everyone. Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files, delighted to share today's gems of wisdom with you. Your questions light up our show, fueling the engaging dialogues that make our community extra special. Keep sending your questions to Trisha Jameson coaching at gmailcom. Your curiosity is our compass. Please hit subscribe, spread the word and let's grow the circle of insight and community together. I'm Trisha Jameson signing off. Stay curious, keep thriving and keep smiling, and I'll catch you on the next episode.
