The Q&A Files
The Q&A Files drops A Wellness Explosion
💥 BOOM! Attention Wellness Warriors. The game changer you have been waiting for is finally here. Say hello to “The Q&A Files,” where wellness meets revolution and your questions lead to new discoveries. Spearheaded by Trisha Jamison, your host, a Board Certified Functional Nutritionist. Cohost Dr. Jeff Jamison, a Board Certified Family Physician, and featured guest, Tony Overbay, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. This podcast blends three diverse perspectives to tackle your questions on health, nutrition, medicine, mental wellness, and relationships. Dive into a world of expert insights and actionable advice, all sparked by your curiosity. Tune in, ignite your wellness journey, and join the Wellness Warrior community.
The Q&A Files
80. Your Nervous System Is Speaking Through Your Relationships, Part 1. Attachment; The Baggage You Didn't Know You Carried.
Imagine carrying an invisible suitcase into every relationship—one packed with your earliest lessons about love, safety, and connection. In this revealing episode of The Q&A Files, host Trisha Jamison teams up with Dr. Jeff Jamison and therapist Tony Overbay to crack open that suitcase and examine what's inside.
Through vivid metaphors and relatable stories, we explore the four attachment styles that shape our relationships: the grounded oak tree (secure), the clingy octopus (anxious), the withdrawing turtle (avoidant), and the conflicted cat in a tree (disorganized). These aren't just psychological categories—they're your nervous system's blueprint for how you give and receive love.
The conversation takes fascinating turns as Tony describes the "anxious-avoidant loop" that traps many couples in painful cycles, while Dr. Jeff offers compassionate insights about why we gravitate toward familiar patterns even when they hurt. You'll discover how early experiences with caregivers created an internal working model that guides your adult relationships, often operating below conscious awareness.
Whether you're overthinking every text message, shutting down during conflicts, or puzzled by your partner's reactions, this episode offers clarity and hope. The panel shares how attachment patterns can shift with awareness and intention, emphasizing that understanding your style isn't about blame but about creating new possibilities for connection.
Ready to recognize your attachment style and transform your relationships? Listen now, and be sure to tune in next week for part two, featuring practical steps toward secure attachment and the introduction of Trisha's new Attachment Map tool.
Questions? Email us at trishajamisoncoaching@gmail.com
Get ready! We have big announcements soon!
Hello and welcome to the Q&A File, the ultimate health and wellness playground. I'm your host, tricia Jamieson, a board-certified functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner, ready to lead you through a world of health discoveries. Here we dive into a tapestry of disease prevention, to nutrition, exercise, mental health and building strong relationships, all spiced with diverse perspectives. It's not just a podcast, it's a celebration of health, packed with insights and a twist of fun. Welcome aboard the Q&A Files, where your questions ignite our vibrant discussions and lead to a brighter you. Welcome, friends, to the Q&A Files. I'm your host, trisha Jamieson, and I'm beyond thrilled to be here with my very best friend, dr Jeff Jamieson, who is a board certified family physician, and our great friend Tony Overbay and he's a licensed magic family therapist, so I'm so glad to have you both here with me today.
Speaker 3:Good to see you. It's been quite some time. This is good.
Speaker 1:It actually has been quite some time.
Speaker 2:Yes, A lot of life events with us all.
Speaker 1:Yes, so we're going to talk about some celebrations and that will probably get our listeners caught up with what's going on in our lives a little bit, so let's go with you, jeff.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm celebrating not having surgery today. Yes, and that is because I had a laceration, a cut to my right little finger that took out one of the tendons. But it is getting better and I was settled with the opportunity of having an operation to fix it all. But it was going to be eight weeks of therapy and a long, long road and the deficit I have from the tendon rupture is really minor and it won't mess me up, so I'm choosing to go with that rather than the weeks and weeks of therapy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we had actually a special prayer for him yesterday and I think he got pretty emotional on the phone when he was showing me that his finger was working. So it was pretty awesome how those kind of things work.
Speaker 2:So I am definitely grateful for that, yes, and for the prayers of those involved as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, tony.
Speaker 3:I want to joke and say I will pass. I mean, we were joking off the mic, you know, other than I don't even want to say like that yeah, how about the celebration is that? I can stay positive and you throw it at me and I will, I will spin it positive.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Tony's got some life things going on.
Speaker 3:We're just kind of commiserating with him a little bit, but I will say I mean, without going into all those details, it was funny because I think this is where being grounded and mindful and present and all the good therapy things really, really shine through, because one might hear some of the things and think, well, that's a lot and it's like, oh man, that really is. But everything's an opportunity to self-confront and grow, says the pursuers either grounded or delusional yeah.
Speaker 1:So which one are you?
Speaker 3:That is correct, yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, I love it. Well, my celebration is. I don't feel like my vacation is over and I'm heading back to Spokane next week. Every week it felt like at the end of this week I'm going to pack up all of our stuff and I'm heading back to Spokane, and today I have not felt that. It's like oh wow, maybe I actually am staying here in Utah. So it's been kind of wild.
Speaker 3:That is.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It's been hard at the office because I'm preparing to exit at the end of September and it's been really difficult talking to patients and they've been so kind and wonderful, but it's also emotionally hard to hear their you know, you told me you weren't going to retire until after I was dead, kinds of things.
Speaker 3:Okay, how dare you let them down like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't promise that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm so glad.
Speaker 3:You've done a splendid job keeping them alive well past their expiration date.
Speaker 2:Well, some of them anyway.
Speaker 3:Okay, there we go, yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they've been pretty sad, most of them. I don't blame them. Yeah, I don't blame them.
Speaker 1:But I'm happy because we are getting closer to our kids and it's just awesome. I've loved every minute of it.
Speaker 2:I've been tongue in cheek, talking to my patients and saying about a year and a half ago, Tricia and I noticed that all of our kids were moving to Utah. So Tricia looked at me and said I'm moving to Utah, Would you like to come too? And I say, well, it was never quite that strong, but it was very true that we needed to make that move.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, and it's really funny because about five months ago I had a dream that we were moving to Utah and I woke up and I told Jeff the dream. And it's really funny because about five months ago I had a dream that we were moving to Utah and I woke up and I told Jeff the dream and he's like, yeah, like that's never going to happen.
Speaker 1:No because I told him we were moving to Utah this summer and I'm like, okay, so about a month later he's like I think you're right, I think we're moving to Utah. So anyway, there you go. He just kind of have to let it marinate on the shelf for a little bit and see what happens.
Speaker 2:That's right and let god do his thing, yeah that's it.
Speaker 1:that was totally 100, all right. So today we are cracking the code of attachment styles wide open with dr jeff and tony, and this is all about understanding that you didn't walk into your relationships empty-handed. So you came all of us came with a suitcase. Once you didn't even know you packed so inside. Your earliest experiences of love, comfort, fear and disappointment was all packed before you even had the words to describe it. And now here you are, maybe arguing over an unanswered text or a pile of laundry, or just feeling that nine silence in your relationship. So wondering, why do I shut down? Why do I panic when they pull away? Why do I feel so unsafe, even when I'm told I'm loved? The answer lies in your attachment system, and it's not just psychology, it's your nervous system's blueprint for love and survival.
Speaker 2:I like how you called it a suitcase. A lot of us call it baggage. Yeah Well, either way, there's stuff in there that you don't always want, even in your suitcase.
Speaker 1:So we're going to go really deep with these attachment styles. We're going to talk about stories and the definition, and we've got a great listener question from Scott that's going to help pull this all together. All right, so let's set the stage. I want you to imagine a baby crying in their crib. One baby cries and no one comes or maybe someone comes sometimes, but it's unpredictable. Another baby cries and a caregiver swoops in with warmth, consistency and calm, with warmth, consistency and calm. Now those two babies, they're learning very different lessons about love, safety and the world around them. So, Tony, I'd love for you to break this down. What is attachment and why does it matter?
Speaker 3:Okay, it's interesting because I mean, that's such a big question. But attachment, so this is where I start from the exiting the womb, and then a baby doesn't know they exist till they interact with another human, and then, from that point now it's like how do I get my needs met? And uh. And so then you know a baby's gonna cry and and be adorable and cute, and then they're gonna get their needs met. And then, as they, as they get a little bit older, now, all of a sudden, as people are starting to I don't know want the baby to become more autonomous or they can start to learn on their own. It's wild to think that the baby, though, is still operating from a place of, but I don't. I don't know how to do my own thing, I don't know how to get my needs met, so I need to figure out a way to get them met, whether it is through crying, through screaming, through our like protest or withdrawal, and it's like whatever behavior will allow me to be seen or understood. So you have that going on. And then you've got parents and other. I mean you got human beings that are going through their own stuff, so sometimes they are more available, sometimes they're not. And so you've got like so many variables coming into play here. No-transcript.
Speaker 3:The baby would be at the stranger and then the mom would come back in, and then either the kid would be upset that the mom was gone in the first place, indifferent, they would either run and cling to them, and so they just studied all these different attachment styles and then it was just a trip to see all the different ways that the kid would respond to this strange situation. They called it, and that's where they would see that some would just immediately cling to their mom, almost like that anxious attachment style you better not ever leave me again. I don't know if I exist without you. And there was the avoidant, where then it's like the the kid's so upset that you left me, but then they could start to measure even like the heart rate and those sorts of things with the kid, and they're still upset but they're not going to show you that. So there you know it's almost this withdrawal, but it's still like. But I need you to see that I'm, I'm withdrawn, I need you to pursue me.
Speaker 3:And uh, and there was even the one that's like what they call disorganized, where they would even see the baby like kind of like go toward the mom and then be angry about it. And there was even situations where the baby like walked backwards toward the mom. You know it was like they don't know what's going on. You know I'm upset, I'm not I need you, but I don't. And then there were some secure ones where the baby would keep playing with the toys, whether the stranger was in there or mom was in there. Mom was in there. They're kind of like I'm good and uh. And then the fascinating part is like, well, why were they all these different ways? And and that is where the fun begins, because you can have people right in different homes and different, same situations and and different attachment styles and at least that's kind of where asking me off the cuff where I would go with that yeah, I, I appreciate that and I think you nailed that with that image and I think too.
Speaker 1:This is how our nervous system gets wired for connection, based on how safe, seen or soothed we feel growing up, and so I love that. And John Bowlby, the father of the attachment theory that you were just talking about. He said it best when he says what cannot be communicated to the mother cannot be communicated to the self. So I just thought that that was spot on. So I think you know, if we didn't have someone consistently there to help us feel safe as kids, we internalize that it becomes who we are. Yes.
Speaker 3:Well, and can I throw something out here? Internalize that becomes who we are, yes, well, and can I throw something out here? And I this is the part that's completely. I could be wrong, but I really like differentiation and and there's a little bit of, I believe, where Schnarch kind of goes a direction that says we, we are too concerned about attachment, because you know, a kid will eventually learn to figure things out.
Speaker 3:And I and I'm probably over simplifying that, but it's wild to now have a grandson in the home and to watch. You know, sometimes when the baby cries it will make us feel anxious and so I want them, I need to go make sure that they are okay. And then you know he's getting, he's over, he's a little over one now, and you're watching him kind of fake cry at times, almost trying to see like okay, will this get you guys over here or not? And so then I was even thinking about from a little baby's brain sometimes it's a legitimate cry and we're rushing over there, and other times he's making the same noises and we're not. And I was thinking that's got to be kind of fascinating for the baby, who doesn't really understand what's going on it's like I'm making the face.
Speaker 3:I'm making the noise, old man, like come on, and they're laughing at that one oh, look at you, great crying. And another time he hurts himself. I'm like let me help. And I was just thinking about wait. Does some of this play into the attachment theory as well?
Speaker 1:Where he's kind of figuring out wait, which one of these is, which one's going to work and when. Yeah, I like that, and I think this also becomes the blueprint of how we become more connected in our relationships as we're growing up, you know, as children. And this isn't about pointing fingers. This is about understanding those early years and what's happened and what we went through and how it shaped us.
Speaker 3:So yeah, and I always think about.
Speaker 1:It reminds me of like. You know, our nervous system is like a house built in our childhood and some people's foundation is very solid, some people's foundation is very shaky, and so that just it's almost not fair, you know, because as a, you know a baby and you have all of these people that you have to depend on, and then it, depending on what kind of attention you received, is how you're going to turn out basically, and it's just kind of. It's just kind of crappy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's why I love that's. I think that's why all roads in my mind lead to to good old acceptance and commitment therapy, because then people want to say, well, why? Versus well, kind of just is like that, and that is that is the thing, and we want to figure out why. But versus like well, I am anxiously attached and I can try to go figure out why, but in my mind that's that's not as productive as, like now that I am, what do I do with it? Anyway, I and that, maybe that's that we can.
Speaker 2:I'm with you on that, it's something that I deal with all the time too, when a lot of people, when they have a problem, they want to know why it happened why, did I get this pain? Why did I, you know, have a lung disease? You know, whatever it is, why can't you fix me? And what they really want to know is how can they prevent the problem from happening again in the future. Right and how can?
Speaker 2:I fix it now, and so once you identify what they're really looking for, then it can be useful. See, the other thing you can. In my opinion, when you're looking at these attachment styles, you can do two things. You can do the part where you go oh, I see where that came from. Now, boy, I'm mad at my parents now. Or you can accept that they were doing the best they could. You give them a lot of grace. And then the other thing you do is you go oh, I can see why my child is acting in this way in their attachment style because of the way I acted. I was a bad parent.
Speaker 2:And so you don't give yourself grace for those things. And it can be something that you can get caught coming and going, and so that's something I think we all have to be careful of is not to judge ourselves or others harshly, but to just use it as an understanding piece. Yeah, I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1:And I think that's so true. I think, to make the stick, one of the things that I do with my clients is I use metaphors for the four attachment styles. We've got secure, anxious, avoidant and disorganized, and so I've put together, and I'll share this at the end as well. But we've got the oak tree, the octopus, the turtle and the cat in the tree, and so we're going to break this down and we're going to bring in any stories or that we'd like to share that can go along with it. So the first one is secure attachment, and so I think of the oak tree. It's strong, it's grounded, it's flexible in the wind, and these people are comfortable with closeness in space and they express their needs without fear and offer support without resentment. Their nervous system learned love is consistent and safe.
Speaker 3:And they ride along on unicorns and they carry pots of gold on their back, right? Yeah, I'm kidding. I've heard of these.
Speaker 3:Exactly, they are the unicorn unicorns, but they are there and and it's amazing, there's seven of them in the world there's seven of them in the world I'm so sorry, tristan, like this is the problem, like getting us all back together again. But what's? I just did a episode not long ago on on some attack. This like attachment orientation is this vibe, that where it's like so, it can be changed because some people believe it's all baked in. But then I was like I should Google and find out percentages and I was like, man, yeah, secure, maybe 20%, and it was anything I read said over 50% and I was like that bull, as a real therapist, and I thought it's one of those things where when you ask somebody, what's your, how are you, they're like, oh'm, I'm secure, you know, because they're like telling themselves that anyway, I'm convinced of that. But but all the data shows that there are a fair amount of these people I'm with dr jeff, I know of six, so I didn't know.
Speaker 3:There's another one.
Speaker 2:I'm the other one but my anxious attachment style is trying to get you to like me, because I'm worried about it Right?
Speaker 1:That is so funny.
Speaker 2:So if I project that, then that will be good, right, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I was just going to share that. I actually did have a client that I worked with and he was a classic oak tree and he did have parents that he felt like were there and consistent and when he needed something they showed up. And so when he was married and we'll just call his wife Lisa when she struggled because she was definitely not secure, he would not make it about him. When she was upset he would focus on okay, I appreciate that there's an issue. I'm here if you want to talk about it. I mean, he was the emotional mature and I think that there's that line when you handle things well, that is the emotional mature one that I think is in more of a secure relationship.
Speaker 2:But that's usually learned over time.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it could be learned for sure, because you can change these, yeah, definitely. But I also think that you start off a certain way, and so if Mike already started off steady and trusted and rooted in a good connecting relationship with his parents who were consistent with him, I think that that helps them grow into that emotional maturity even earlier, potentially. What do you think about that, tony?
Speaker 3:Oh, and I think absolutely, and I'm and I am with, I mean, boy, I have the jokes going so fast in my head but cause I know that that's why I do I really my my jokes here are based in some, I think, reality of if we're barely figuring out how to deal with our emotions and uh, and that's why I always like telling this narrative of even a good parent would tell their kid, don't worry about it, it's not a big deal, will have what did you do? And so we're. I think we're kind of taught that our emotions are incorrect and they are annoying to others, and so we stop externalizing and we internalize them, and then we need somebody else to tell us we're okay, which is what is not a secure attachment. So I just almost think that's why I think I take exception and like you're so right, I mean there's going to be, it's a spectrum.
Speaker 3:But but if people really didn't even know that emotions were okay, or what to do with their kids' emotions, or if they even thought that the right thing to do was to tell their kid, it's not a big deal, like I'm being a good parent, then they just think it's really hard because that kid still needs somebody else to tell them that they're okay, um, to get this person to like me where the secure attachment person likes themselves, and so therefore they are not easily movable and uh, and so I, you know, I'm kind of more with dr jeff, just that is you can learn yeah, just like the baby that when they were playing, whether the the parent came in or the stranger came in, he was totally fine yeah, so and I think that that starts early.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. And I think too that when you think about what's packed in their suitcase, the secure, attached person, they have the safe harbor. They have this connection that it doesn't matter what's going on around them. They focus on what's good for them and I think that that's really just like you said. He may be a unicorn, but I did see that and it was good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, okay, and I will say and I brag about him too much, I'm glad he doesn't listen to any things I put out there but my son, I thought that the more I was learning about this, because we had daughter, daughter, daughter, son, and you know, by the time he was being just himself, he wouldn't, I mean, he'd quit this basketball scholarship, wants to do this other thing. And he didn't come to us to talk about it.
Speaker 1:You had a problem with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had the problem with it and I loved it. At one point my wife's like why didn't he come run that by us? And I was like, oh, because he, he knew he could make a decision and that we would support him. And I just thought he doesn't even know that he's supposed to worry about is. Are my mom and dad going to be mad, or am I? How, how should I put this? And it's like and I even tried to give him praise for that he was like I have no idea. It was like I don't understand what you're talking about, cause I'm trying to say you, you don't even know what you're not, whereas. But the more I thought about it, it's like well, no, that's because he's not. You can't tell somebody. Hey, you don't even realize how securely attached you are. If they just are, which is such, a, such a trip, because they're just being yeah, yeah, they're just being them, just being them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you so much, dad, I'm being me, yeah, yeah, it's like don't you realize how cool this is and what a problem this is for me? But yet I'm also grateful. And then it sounds like geez, I'm anxiously attached. I need him to tell me yeah, that's cool, dad. Yeah, good for you, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, metaphor that I've come up with is the octopus, because the octopus may crave closeness, but it fears abandonment. And these people, they overthink, they over-apologize and they need constant reassurance. And they're very clingy like an octopus. So their nervous system has learned love disappears if I don't fight for it.
Speaker 3:But that's super cool, right, like I mean those are great, right. I'm kidding Because I mean that is. I am a I am a card carrying anxiously attached person, and I pulled up so many different things here. I won't try to go all ADD on this, but there's a book that I'm reading currently called how to Not Die Alone. It's the surprising science that will help you find love. It's more of the author.
Speaker 3:I really enjoy her, logan Urie. She's, I think, a behavioral psychologist out of Harvard and worked for Google, and so it is a little bit. It's got a lot of dating stuff in there, but she has a brilliant section on attachment, and this is what I think is just makes so much sense. She said you know, when people are anxiously attached, their brains flood with activating strategies, thoughts that compel them to regain closeness. For example, they might think about their partner nonstop, or they may dwell on their partner's good qualities while undervaluing their own. And she says, this distortion leads to panic, and then, when they don't hear back from a partner immediately, they worry that they're being abandoned. And the only way they can shake their anxiety is when they're actively communicating with their partner.
Speaker 3:And this is the sentence that really hit for me and I was sharing this with a couple earlier today and, man, we had a moment.
Speaker 3:But this also leads them to jump into relationships and stay in them past their expiration date because they fear being alone and they worry that this is their only shot at love and that part where they can stay past their expiration date because they're so fearful of abandonment.
Speaker 3:And then and I don't know if we'll get into this, maybe for another episode, but the anxious attachment loop is what I see as a couples therapist and you know talking about avoidant, which I'm not trying to skip completely yet, but just after saying that anxious, you know, the avoidant often then dwells on their partner's imperfections and then uses that as a way to regain independence. So you've got this overly trying partner and this person that I've been writing about this lately, calling it drive by invalidation, where the avoidant can just say, hey, I don't like that, and the anxious like, oh my gosh, thank you so much, I will go, I will work on this and this alone and I will check in with you every, every chance I get, and I want to know if you make sure I'm doing OK with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the avoidance like that's a lot. So actually now I don't think you're doing it good enough and the anxious, like I'm on it and you know. So it's like, yeah, drive by invalidation from the avoidant. The anxious is like okay, if I can just do this, then they will love me forever and text me back every five minutes and everything will be great and it's. It's such a apparently we're a lot as anxious attached.
Speaker 1:I think it sounds like a fun time yeah, unless you're on the other end and you have 17 texts and it's like are you mad at me? Is everything okay?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, so well, I am now right. Exactly, I wasn't until the 15th after the 17th x.
Speaker 2:I'm ticked.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, right yeah, so that's that's so true though. Wow. So since she brought up avoidant attachment, I think of the turtle. So that is the turtle. They withdraw. Under stress, these people seem distant, they shut down emotionally and they struggle with closeness, and their nervous system has learned emotions aren't safe. I must rely only on myself.
Speaker 2:And they're the ones who provide the drive by invalidations.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, explain that more, jeff.
Speaker 2:Well, it was just I'm capturing Tony's turn, so go ahead yeah yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:So I've read two whole books on how to love and avoid it and it really did enlighten me. And this is where, if you two whole books on how to love an avoidant, and and it really did enlighten me, and this is where, if you are an anxiously attached person, this will this will be very helpful to hear. And if you're avoidant, you might take offense, but the avoidant it's not that they don't love their anxiously attached partner, but they're not thinking about the relationship constantly and I got to tell you the first time I really tried to understand that concept. It blew my mind. So they're not continually wondering how I'm doing, you know, because I'm wondering how my wife is doing yeah.
Speaker 3:And then, and then here comes that rejection Well, if they aren't, that must mean they don't like me. Well, that makes me anxious, so I better check in more. But they're OK. And boy, now we throw a little projection in there.
Speaker 3:And this is where I had realized, you know, I want my wife to text me every day and say how are you? And you're amazing. So what would I do? I would, of course, let her know that, which then she would take is okay, I'm not doing it well, or I'm not doing this right. And what I would do is then I would text her every day and say how you doing? Hope your day is going great, you're awesome. And I realized, oh, I'm assuming she would want that. But the avoidant is like like I'm good, I don't want to bother you because I'm good. And so, you know, is everything okay Because you're texting me? Because for her it's like if you're going to text me, something must be going down. And then her just even going like is everything okay? I'm like, oh crap, I thought it was like are you good?
Speaker 2:Is that you? Just you were talking about a minute ago.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the anxious avoidant loop, and I realized I didn't even answer the question. So then, okay, so that drive by invalidation, is that often the avoidant? Can I mean they will? They'll kind of often maybe throw a little criticism. Hey, I didn't like the way you did that. And then the anxious because they fear abandonment or rejection.
Speaker 3:Yeah, then they fear abandonment or rejection. Yeah, then they're like oh my gosh. You know that hurts to hear, but I at least know I can go work on this. And what I see in my practice often is where an anxiously attached person might've hung on to something that the avoidant said for years, you know, okay, no, you don't like the text, or I don't like to argue through text or whatever, so I don't. And it's really hard for me. And then you know, I've had a couple of times where the avoidance said oh, I never said that, and you've had this anxiously attached person that's built their last five years off of.
Speaker 3:You know I can work on this where the avoidance, like, you know, drive by, hey, I don't like, uh, I don't like long texts. And then they just like buzz on by, you know, cause they're just like ah, this is uncomfortable. There's the thing, and the anxious is like I will hang on to this thing for the rest of my life and I will define myself by fixing this thing. And then when I bring it to you, avoidant, you will now finally love me and not reject me. And then that feels like even more rejection when the avoidance like oh, I, yeah, I didn't remember saying that, or I mean. Well, I know I didn't really mean it.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay so. I it, you know okay so I think too going along with that that it's not that turtles don't care exactly, it's that they. Their blueprint says vulnerability is a risk yeah, right, it does.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay, and then, and then, what I thought, and I was going to look this up, but in that bulby strange experiment, and what I thought was so fascinating about it, and I probably won't find it in time but it's that you, the, the avoidant, still like their heart rate still elevated their, you know, they still, they wanted that connection but they, but they don't show any outward appearances of those things, and unless somebody is taking their heart rate.
Speaker 1:That, no, they wouldn't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, so they might fail a, a lie detector test, about it, you know, but they would definitely not show it outwardly that they even cared about anything that was said.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right and I pulled up the strange experiment and here's a paragraph that I thought was interesting. So it's when the parent leaves the room, the child's left with the stranger. This is the first separation episode and it's designed to activate the attachment system. And the researchers observe how the child responds to the separation. Do they become distressed, do they try to follow the parent out, or do they accept comfort from a stranger? The minutes later the parent returns.
Speaker 3:The reunion is one of the most revealing moments of the experiment. The researchers watch. Does the child greet the parent warmly? Do they ignore the parent? Do they seek contact but then angrily resist it? Then they do a second separation. The child's left completely alone and then, after a brief period, the stranger returns first and then the parent. It's like an eight-act play is what it was um and uh and so yeah.
Speaker 3:So securely attached children became upset when their parent left. But when the parent returned they sought contact and were easily comforted. Once comforted, then they played again and it was almost like they were saying this internal working model is my parents are safe and so when I'm upset I can go check in and I'm good. And then the anxiously attached kids showed intense distress during separation and then had difficulty settling down when their parent returned and then they might seek contact, but then resist it, kind of like pushing the parent away while crying, kind of like saying I can't count on you to be there consistently, yeah, so I better cling extra tight, but I'm angry and then avoidantly attached.
Speaker 3:children showed little distress when their parents left, and they often ignored or avoided their parent upon return, and then they might keep playing with their toys, turning their back on their parent. It wasn't because they didn't care and this is that part their heart rates and stress hormones were actually elevated, but they learned to suppress their attachment needs. Like their internal model said, it's not safe for me to show that I need comfort and then then the fourth pattern.
Speaker 3:It is right, it is. And then the fourth pattern disorganized attachment, where children showed confused or contradictory behaviors, like they would either freeze in place or approach their parent backward. It's wild and I think on that episode, when I was doing it, I said I don't know if they could pull that off now. It was done in the 50s because Because you're stressing out all- these babies Right. Seriously, though, and you got some stranger in there, Like I don't know if he's offering candies. You got a trench coat. I have no idea.
Speaker 2:A trench coat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well for sure, Well good. And I'm glad you brought up the disorganized attachment, and so when I think about the disorganized attachment, I think of a cat in a tree. You know, you think about their claws. They are not comfortable, these people. I think that they crave love but they're so fearful of being close because they don't know what that closeness is going to entail. So I believe that they self-sabotage peace because it doesn't feel familiar to them, and I think that their nervous system has been taught that love is dangerous and trust is a trap. You know, I think too, when you've got children that have come from an abusive home, they are just packed with fear and confusion and they just don't even know what end is up. They don't know what they're going to get. They don't know if they're going to get a parent that is going to be there for them or a parent that's going to yell and scream and maybe abuse them or slap them or whatever.
Speaker 3:So yeah, well, can I tell you you said I like that you used the word familiar, because there's a concept that I think about often and in this anxious avoidant loop people often wonder why does it happen? Because it tends to play out in most relationships, at least that I'm aware of. And now, to take a side note, we got good old Freud stuff that says we marry our parent like our mom or our dad, which is not cool. So I wanted to figure this one out. So then I went with this concept of the familiar and I love my wife to death and, and, but I am very anxious, and so then we go back to like in childhood if I didn't feel seen, then I needed to perform to say hey, I'm right here. And then you know, my wife is more of this avoidant, which is uh again, if she's then not necessarily jumping up and down and telling me that I'm awesome, you know, now there's that familiar. And so then I, I'm awesome, you know, now there's that familiar. And so then I'm like I'm better with that.
Speaker 3:You know, because we I think we kind of find ourselves marrying a familiar pattern, that what we saw, because I will often make jokes that there was a girl my junior year that really liked me and I was like geez, back off, you know, like always wanting to be around me and you know, make out and stuff Headed for bed, yeah Right. But in your mind you're like, yeah, of course I would want that. But then when you find and that's why when you're working on it in a couple setting the anxious often says this is all I want. But then when they finally get good couples therapy and then the avoidant is moving toward the anxious, then they're like it's like, oh, with this, yeah, because they don't just like we just said, they're not familiar. Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think it's really important to appreciate. We said this at the beginning, but when you are learning about these attachment styles, this isn't about blaming, but it's about understanding our wiring, and we want to be able to understand that so we can have our own compassion for ourselves and for our partners. But one of the things that I always talk about with my clients too, and that is your partner is not your therapist, they're not your counselor. They can't fix you in your childhood. You need to get that fixed with someone else. They are there to support and love you, but they didn't cause that trauma.
Speaker 1:But you think about how often in relationships it goes back to that early timeframe and there's so much blaming that goes on and their spouses oftentimes associated with that. So that's one of the things that I always talk with my clients. It's like they are not your therapist, they are not your. I mean I guess they could be your coach, because you want them to support you and to buoy you up and so forth, but they can't heal you. You got to do that on your own.
Speaker 3:That's right, and even if they are actually a real therapist, that may even make it worse, just hypothetically. If we only knew somebody like that.
Speaker 1:I've heard stories. Yeah, exactly Now Tony had to leave as he had clients he had to attend to. But what a powerful conversation this has been with Tony and Dr Jeff on the four attachment styles. Now we've peeked into that suitcase we all carry, packed with our earliest lessons about love, safety and connection, and that shapes how we show up in our relationships today. Now this isn't just psychology, it's your nervous system's blueprint for how you give and receive love. And when we start to see our patterns through the lens of attachment styles, we unlock compassion, not just for ourselves but for the people we love too. So, tony, thank you so much for bringing both clarity and humor to a topic that can feel so tender, and Jeff, thank you for grounding it in both science and heart.
Speaker 1:Now we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be back next week with part two of Cracking the Code of Attachment Styles with Dr Jeff. In that episode, jeff and I will respond to a heartfelt question from a listener named Scott, whose story weaved together the four attachment styles in a way that might just sound a little familiar. We'll help him uncover his pattern, understand his dynamic with his wife, claire and share some tangible healing steps forward, and I'll also introduce you to our brand new tool, my Attachment Map, designed to help you identify your style and take your next step toward secure connection. Trust me, you don't want to miss it. So take a breath, give yourself some grace and please join us next week as we keep unpacking what it means to truly feel safe and loved.
Speaker 1:So goodbye, everybody, have a great day. Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files, delighted to share today's gems of wisdom with you. Your questions light up our show, fueling the engaging dialogues that make our community extra special. Keep sending your questions to trishajamesoncoaching at gmailcom. Your curiosity is our compass. Please hit subscribe, spread the word and let's grow the circle of insight and community together. I'm Trisha Jameson, signing off. Stay curious, keep thriving and keep smiling, and I'll catch you on the next episode.
