Ep 128: How To Deal With Breakup After Betrayal? With Psychologist Peter Chan

You’re not just losing a person, you’re losing the reality you thought you were living in. One day everything feels stable, and the next, you’re questioning what was real, what wasn’t, and how you didn’t see it. 

In this episode of The Dimple Bindra Show, we dive deep into the psychology of betrayal and breakups with Hong Kong-based psychologist Peter Chan from Treehole HK.

Check out Peter Chan's YoutTube Channel Here! 

Together, we unpack:

•  Why betrayal feels more devastating than a normal breakup 
•  The role of shock, anger, and emotional collapse
•  Why your mind keeps replaying everything (rumination loops) 
•  Why you still miss someone who hurt you 
•  How betrayal impacts your ability to trust again 
•  The concept of “secure attachment” breaking overnight
•  Practical tools like “worry time” to regain control 

We also explore how to begin rebuilding your sense of self, even when everything feels broken.

If you’re in the first days or even months after betrayal, this conversation will help you understand what’s happening inside your mind and how to move forward with clarity.

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Transcript

0:15: Breakups are really hard, but a breakup after betrayal hits differently, because you're not just losing the person, you are literally losing the version of reality you thought you were living in. 
 0:29: And one day you think you are in a relationship, and then the next day you're questioning everything. 
 0:35: What was real, what wasn't, and how you didn't see it. 
 0:39: And instead of just grieving the relationship, you're dealing with shock and anger and confusion, and sometimes even blaming yourself for something you didn't even create in the first place. 
 0:52: So today, we are talking about how to actually. 
 0:56: deal with a breakup after betrayal. 
 1:00: And when it's not just heartbreak, it's everything collapsing all at once. 
 1:05: And to have this conversation with me, I'm joined by a very special person. 
 1:11: I'm actually very thrilled to introduce him. 
 1:13: His name is Peter Chan. 
 1:15: He is a. 
 1:17: Hi, Peter. 
 1:18: Welcome to the show. 
 1:20: So, I'm joined by Peter Chan. 
 1:21: He's a psychologist based in Hong Kong, who works at the intersection of counseling, teaching, and mental health innovation, and the founder of Tree Whole Hong Kong, where he focuses on helping individuals build emotional resilience in the face. 
 1:38: Of modern life challenges. 
 1:40: His work integrates psychological counseling, education, and mental health technology through the Mind Forest app. 
 1:48: With a background in psychology from the University of Hong Kong and academic experience at the University of Oxford, Peter draws from psychoanalysis. 
 1:59: and existential psychology, particularly the work of Irvin Yalom to support people in navigating life's contradictions and rebuilding a grounded, authentic sense of self. 
 2:13: Hi, Peter, you have an incredible bio and I just loved speaking about you. 
 2:18: How are you doing today? 
 2:19: Yeah, I'm good. 
 2:20: Thank you for having me. 
 2:21: This is my first time to be featured in an English podcast. 
 2:25: So thank you for having me. 
 2:27: I mainly do local content creation. 
 2:29: So thank you for bringing this to me to a broader audience. 
 2:32: I'd love to talk about the topic. 
 2:34: Of course, and if you don't know Peter, go check out his YouTube channel, which I'm definitely going to link towards the show notes, and I'll definitely add it. 
 2:42: He's mostly makes a lot of videos on Cantonese and his videos have like, Over millions and thousands, I should say millions and millions of views. 
 2:50: So, you know, he's a very famous guy in Hong Kong. 
 2:53: So Peter, remember, I'm actually saying this on this podcast, we better meet at Treehole Hong Kong when I'm in Hong Kong, OK? 
 3:00: Yeah, definitely. 
 3:01: I will visit you if I come to the States as well. 
 3:05: That sounds great. 
 3:06: Thanks, Peter. 
 3:07: So Peter, tell me about what led you to, into psychology in the first place and the work around resilience, especially in such a fast-paced place like Hong Kong. 
 3:19: Right, right. 
 3:19: I, I think it's really a long story. 
 3:21: when I was small, I was quite interested in science, so I just love to understand how the world works. 
 3:28: And when I was more like, in junior school, I thought of being a chemist. 
 3:32: And going into the academia. 
 3:34: So I studied the periodic tables, and even though I haven't gotten the university yet, I picked up those, university textbooks, to read, but in chemistry. 
 3:44: So, I remember when I was like 13 or 14, in secondary school in Hong Kong, I think it's equivalent to the junior, like year 12 or year 13 in the Western education system. 
 3:56: I started to grow, growing an interest in the human mind. 
 4:01: So, I, I remember I begin by reading books, those, I would say, pseudo-psychology books, those like, how to read people in 3 seconds, how to, like, get people to, to buy into you. 
 4:13: I could understand a lot at the time because I was, I was a teenager, so, but I, I, I found that a few is quite fascinating. 
 4:21: And out of a curiosity to science, I started to pick up some psychology books to read. 
 4:27: So I read, psychology books at a very young age. 
 4:30: And then I got into Hong Kong youth, so that's how I started my, career in psychology. 
 4:37: And, I remember upon graduation, it's 2018 in Hong Kong, so I started to do some mindfulness workshop because I, this is one of my interest and practice as well. 
 4:50: But I was just a one-man band, so, doing solo podcast, doing solo videos, and solo, class teaching. 
 4:57: And I remember the turning point was really 2019. 
 5:01: Hong Kong had a social movement. 
 5:04: at the time. 
 5:05: And I think this is quite a tense period, for the people in the city. 
 5:11: and, I would like to echo on your introduction. 
 5:14: It shakens our core beliefs, like the reality is shaken to the very core. 
 5:19: So I thought, OK, as, as a, as a practitioner in psychology, I could have done, something, to try to make psychology something accessible to the public. 
 5:30: So that's how the, you know, the company goal of building resilience for the times. 
 5:34: The slogan in our YouTube channel, came into shape. 
 5:38: And talking about my forest, I also had a like very interesting background. 
 5:44: When I was in university, most of my interns, I served as a, a full stack developer, so I typed programs. 
 5:52: So, I know the craft to generate code without an, without an AI. 
 5:56: That's a traditional craft in 2026. 
 5:59: And then DBT came about, and I said, OK, what about I make, you know, AI empowered mental health app. 
 6:07: So I built a mind for us. 
 6:09: So I would say I sit between the intersections of how the society works, the AI and neuroscience, that's my personal interest, and also, psychology. 
 6:18: So, Yeah, I have a diverse interest and I hope I could like delve deeper into each one of them, but that, you know, time is never enough. 
 6:25: So that's a big background about me. 
 6:28: I love that. 
 6:29: So you're a psychologist and a developer, and basically you, yes, the Mind Forest app, which is, you know, I would say 100%, go check it out, especially if you're in Hong Kong, you can download it and it's, it's a web link, right? 
 6:41: So anyone can have access to it, correct? 
 6:45: yeah, it's an, it's an, app in both English and, and, and other languages. 
 6:51: And for my videos, I hope, like, the AI would get even better, so I could, they could translate my Cantonese content naturally into English, but, it's not good enough, so I guess we'll have to await. 
 7:01: Yeah. 
 7:02: It will happen, like technology is catching up. 
 7:06: Perfect. 
 7:06: Thank you so much, Peter, for telling us. 
 7:08: So I would love to now dive into this topic of betrayal and breakup with women. 
 7:15: So I think breakup after. 
 7:19: Betrayal feels very different from a normal breakup, right? 
 7:23: A normal breakup is girlfriend, boyfriend, OK, I don't want to be with you, or a husband-wife. 
 7:27: I mean, I don't think husband-wife has a breakup. 
 7:28: I think that's a divorce, but a normal breakup is so different. 
 7:32: What's actually happening psychologically in that moment for A woman Who just got betrayed and now she wants to have a breakup with her partner. 
 7:46: Mhm. 
 7:47: I, I think there's several crucial differences. 
 7:51: for example, I think dimple, as you have said, usually the breakup, like the normal breakup process, take phrases. 
 7:58: And I remember there's a recent, relationship research showing that actually the signs of breakup are happening 2 years before the actual breakup. 
 8:07: So, for example, they talk less, they have less, intimate exchanges like physically and psychologically. 
 8:15: And then it turns to a tipping point where they in, they officially voice out the request to end the relationship. 
 8:24: so you can see, in this period, although it wouldn't be easy, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be chill, but, we are making the internal mental preparation of, OK, how do I navigate, in life, and what would be my life after. 
 8:38: so these kind of process, they really help to build the resilience factors. 
 8:43: For example, if you, if you're thinking, oh, OK, my relationship is not going well to me, and you can do several things. 
 8:50: For example, you may choose to talk it out. 
 8:52: That's a good thing to do. 
 8:53: You may even choose to choose a relationship therapist. 
 8:57: And sometimes relationship therapists and psychologists, sometime they, seeing a therapist lead to a breakup as well. 
 9:06: But after, like, in that conversation, to know that, OK, maybe, we have really different life path. 
 9:15: So these kind of preparation, they're sort of like the mental buffer for you to process the grief, or maybe you will build like different capitals, like mental capitals, for example, friendship network as well, to buffer the effects of ending a relationship. 
 9:31: But, I would say betrayal is quite different in this landscape. 
 9:35: Basically, you just discover it and, shock comes into you. 
 9:40: And, it is difficult for several reasons. 
 9:43: If we think about the function of a relationship. 
 9:47: So, when we talk about a function of an intimate relationship, we will usually talk about an attachment theory, coined by, psychologists Ainsworth and Bowley, and they will say, in a functioning relationship, the intimate partner, sort of, sort of, as sort of function as a safe space for exploration. 
 10:08: Like when we considered when we were small, and our primary caretaker served us, served that function. 
 10:14: For example, the psychologist even ran an experiment. 
 10:18: when a kid and his or her mother, is taken to, like a room with strangers, and when the mother's left, basically the boy or the girl, they would just, stop exploring, because like they don't have the secure base to explore, and they would cry and stuff. 
 10:36: And when the mother come back, Then the exploratory behavior, began. 
 10:40: So I think this experiment clearly shows that the secure base is that, the secure base is important. 
 10:46: So, when we extrapolate this concept into like adult intimate relationships, our, spouse served that purpose. 
 10:54: So, just say they are not there suddenly, and the secure base is gone. 
 11:00: So that's the, like, I would say that's the, that's the brief to process. 
 11:05: And I think there's a deeper grief to that in terms of betrayal. 
 11:09: Basically, you will stop asking, you will start asking yourself questions. 
 11:12: Is the secure base really secure? 
 11:15: It's like, it seems like you're living in a facade, like the secure base. 
 11:19: I thought, OK, my, my spouse is a secure, secure base, and suddenly it's not secure. 
 11:25: So what about for future relationships? 
 11:27: Can I really trust that? 
 11:28: Can I really build that trust? 
 11:30: So I think that is the crux of the issue that makes it so devastating. 
 11:35: Oh wow, you gave us a whole different point to even think about. 
 11:40: Interesting, this is so cool. 
 11:42: So that's why women feel insecure right away, and right away they feel destabilized, right? 
 11:51: They just don't feel stable within. 
 11:53: Interesting. 
 11:54: This is so cool. 
 11:56: Why does it feel so hard to let go, even when you know that this relationship was not even healthy? 
 12:06: Mhm. 
 12:07: I think there's several, reason, and one of them is the uncertainty. 
 12:13: I think humans are quite tied to, like, psychological factors and uncertainty, and we kind of have the love or hate relationship, to uncertainty itself. 
 12:25: Just, think about, gambling. 
 12:28: So, when you go to casinos, and you lose money, you feel the pain. 
 12:33: And actually, the pain of losing $100 is actually larger than gaining $100. 
 12:41: So that's, yeah, yeah, that's well established by, like a psychologist called Daniel Kahneman. 
 12:48: But, you know, the pleasure is very real. 
 12:50: Like the, the pool is very real. 
 12:52: So, you kind of seek that kind of, tension, that kind of, paradoxical, feelings. 
 13:01: and I think that happens to, betrayal, breakup as well. 
 13:06: for example, if a breakup is well planned, there's less uncertainty. 
 13:11: We know the reason. 
 13:12: Like, we know why the relationship is not working out. 
 13:16: we had conversations. 
 13:18: we tried to resolve it, but we couldn't. 
 13:21: So, this is the final step. 
 13:24: you, you, I, I think you would agree that the uncertainty is not as high. 
 13:28: And by the way, and other relationship advice based on psychology, so breakup, you know, especially divorce will hurt the children, right, psychologically. 
 13:37: And I came across a book by Nancy McWilliams, like, he, she talks about psychoanalysis and she said that the best way to mitigate the harm towards the children is to explain to them in details why the marriage is not working. 
 13:54: -huh. 
 13:55: So they have to, so they can stop guessing. 
 13:58: Just like, you know, in Truman, sometimes they do not speak, but a lot is running on their heads. 
 14:03: They will say, OK, am I the burden to the marriage? 
 14:06: did the divorce happens because of me? 
 14:09: So they kind of interject that negativity into oneself, and that could cause a, you know, a very lasting psychological damage, but clarity breaks into it. 
 14:20: So, I would say the crux of the issue is the uncertainty and in betrayal like breakup, we start guessing, OK, we will say that if I had done that, would it not happen? 
 14:30: for example, we may ask ourselves, can I still repair the relationship? 
 14:35: And some people, they will be, like, you know, spirals of, negative thoughts about themselves. 
 14:41: Is it because of me? 
 14:43: could I have done better or should I forgive and try to repair the relationship? 
 14:47: And in case they try to repair the relationship, they will say, OK, what would you, what would, what would happen if it happens again? 
 14:55: So, I would say the uncertainty is definitely at play here. 
 15:00: Wow, that actually makes total sense because that brings me to my next question, which is, I have seen this and it happened to me as well, which is a lot of women just keep replaying everything in their head, right? 
 15:13: Like, what did they miss? 
 15:15: What they could have done differently? 
 15:18: Why, why do you think the mind does that? 
 15:21: Like replaying the story or replaying maybe the day that they discovered the betrayal over and over and over again in loops. 
 15:30: Yeah, yeah, so I think what you have talked about is, is called the rumination patterns, which means negative thoughts just circulating around your mind and you couldn't get rid of it. 
 15:42: And when it gets severe, it can actually hampers your. 
 15:46: Life as well. 
 15:48: And I think one of the reasons for people to ruminate is, is that they, they kind of want a sense of control. 
 15:54: It's like after, when the external environment is not controllable, and you basically try to get your way at it, and sometimes rumination can be useful. 
 16:05: Like, for example, when you think of spectrum on how detailed should we think about an incident. 
 16:10: So basically, these are two extremes, right? 
 16:13: Some people, no, I'm not just, just talking about women and not just talking about relationships. 
 16:17: Some people would be like, OK, let's stop thinking about it. 
 16:20: Just live in the present. 
 16:22: sometimes it's the optimal strategy, but sometimes it's not. 
 16:25: Sometimes when you, screw up some things, you have to reflect, you have to think, OK, what did I done wrong and how could I have done it better? 
 16:33: Is it my responsibility or that their responsibility is, is actually constructive. 
 16:38: But when you are going into an extreme end, so the question, I think that naturally arises, how do I know when I'm going into the extreme end? 
 16:46: I think there's a few indications. 
 16:48: For example, you are going into loop. 
 16:50: You are thinking about the same question and every same question at 3 a.m. in the morning, and you couldn't sleep because of it. 
 16:58: And there's a phenomenon called the spillover effect as well. 
 17:01: For example, I'm not talking about, OK, those people with psychological strength, and they wouldn't feel everything and when they're getting betrayed, that's not true. 
 17:09: I'm quite sure I would be quite devastated if I, I am betrayed. 
 17:14: but rather, if that start to creep in my every aspect of life, for example, I couldn't work, that damaged my social relationships, like my other friends, that damaged my, family relationships. 
 17:28: Or, for example, I am doubting my, very, value of existence. 
 17:34: Then that's spill over. 
 17:36: Like I could say, OK, I could think about, maybe I didn't do well in my relationship. 
 17:41: That's not spill over and maybe there's certain truth to it. 
 17:44: It depends on the situation. 
 17:46: that's normal. 
 17:47: But if I were like, OK, it's every aspect. 
 17:50: I am a garbage. 
 17:51: I am a rubbish, then that spill over. 
 17:54: you have to get alert in this. 
 17:55: And I remember I came across some research, there's some gender differences as well. 
 18:01: And the men and women, their coping style is a bit different. 
 18:06: men, they kind of, they, they sort of more, they have a more like, I would say proclamation, an inclination of using destruction as coping strategy. 
 18:16: So I don't know if it's in the Western world as well. 
 18:18: There's a joke in Hong Kong, a couple where they, they have some argument, and the, the boy, the guy where they would say, OK, let's stop talking about it. 
 18:27: I want to play some video games. 
 18:29: And the, the, the, the girl, the woman would be like, Let's talk it out. 
 18:32: We have to settle this. 
 18:34: Is, is it the, the case for other like Western culture as well? 
 18:37: Yes, totally. 
 18:38: Like, it's the same here, like the girl wants to talk and the guy wants to play on his phone or he wants to just be on Facebook and, you know, scroll Instagram because that's more important. 
 18:48: Yeah, totally. 
 18:50: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, it's not, it's not cultural specific. 
 18:53: It's a gender, right? 
 18:56: Of course that all men and all women are like that, but a gender role tendency, but I think at these times, the opposite sex have something to learn from. 
 19:06: I will, for example, let's say I over rely on the distraction strategy as a guy, then basically I wouldn't delve into the crux of the issue and maybe I didn't understand my partner enough. 
 19:18: That's a thing for me to learn, to adapt to the more, I would, I would say more feminine strategy. 
 19:24: And for the women, there's like a masculine strategy for them to learn as well. 
 19:28: For example, when they're going to look, is there some coping strategy, some attention, And some, I would say direct your attention to other places that you could do as well. 
 19:39: For example, build a habits, go to see friends. 
 19:43: so I would say in this sense, each gender truly have something to learn from the other gender. 
 19:49: Interesting. 
 19:50: Got it. 
 19:51: Makes sense. 
 19:51: So, which means if a woman is going in loops, she can actually build some coping strategies to not go into that loop. 
 19:58: Yes, yes, and there's a strategy like, often prescribed by psychologists called a worry time as well. 
 20:07: For example, it's like, limit your worrying time. 
 20:09: For example, you are doing it 12 hours a day, why not set, set, I would say 30 minutes, maybe in the afternoon to think about that guy who betrayed you and the other place you go into your thing, yeah. 
 20:21: Put it on your calendar. 
 20:23: Worry time because the guy who cheated on you, now you can sit and worry and Yeah, that's a great idea. 
 20:30: I love that, like, schedule your worry time. 
 20:33: Yeah, worry as much as you like in that time, then go on with your life. 
 20:36: Only in that time and after 30 minutes, put a timer and come out of it and live your life, right? 
 20:42: I love that. 
 20:43: I, I love that. 
 20:44: So, OK, I would love to talk about this one thing that happens a lot with women, which is, is it normal? 
 20:52: To still miss someone who hurt you, because that confuses a lot of people. 
 20:59: Like, you just got betrayed and you wanna, you already broke up with this person, and now all of a sudden you see his text messages or you see his pictures and you start missing that person. 
 21:10: Is that normal? 
 21:12: Yeah, I, I think that's quite normal. 
 21:14: I recently read a book called Difference, the Love and, I don't know, I, I, I forgot the subtitle, but it's, it's talking about love and limerence by Dorothy Tanoff, and they the term like a limerence, which is a new English term, which kind of means that a strong attraction to towards an Unattainable partner maybe during state of pursuit and maybe during the stage of breakup as well. 
 21:42: And in that book, they said that the crux of the limerence is two factors, the first of which is hope and the second of which is uncertainty. 
 21:54: And so if it's like that, that, we, we couldn't see, we don't talk to each other anymore, then there's no hope, right? 
 22:01: So you wouldn't be, sustaining the limeran state. 
 22:05: But, some couples break up, sometimes they still text each other, and then the hope and uncertainty could be ignite. 
 22:13: I think the book put it very well. 
 22:15: They say that, the, one of the central feature of, limerons is that, you kind of interpret every action, with the respect of whether they are falling nmerants of me as well. 
 22:28: So, for example, when you break up with a person and then they text you, text you back. 
 22:34: then you're starting to interpret, you're starting to interpret the action, the action of that they text you, in the regards of can we repair the relationship. 
 22:44: So that was just going to loop and loop and loop. 
 22:48: And I think my personal take to this, is that, yes, this is a very normal feeling, and this is exactly how attachment works. 
 22:57: Attachment is attachment after world. 
 23:01: attachment is talking about you are relying others on as your secure base, and you are talking about, you co-constructed, your life, at least in a certain time period, and now you're part. 
 23:14: So, still clinging on to that feelings can be very important, can be very normal, I would say. 
 23:20: but one point I would try to, I try to add on is this, I think, like, intimate relationship, for example, ex, I think the relationship can be multifaceted, multifaceted. 
 23:34: For example, some people, they become friends with their ex, not because they still have that romantic attachment. 
 23:41: Not because they still want to run through the, the narrative of living life together, but they truly cherish the times they spend together. 
 23:51: Some people can be like that. 
 23:52: Of course, I'm not making the statement that every couple should be like that. 
 23:55: After all, like each person is different, but you can see that, that have their value as well, for, for some people. 
 24:03: Yes, so I think it's normal to have different feelings. 
 24:06: Everyone is different. 
 24:09: can you, can you give us like more examples on limerence because I love what you talked about, examples of limerence when it comes to someone who actually got betrayed like a woman, but she does not have any hope in the relationship. 
 24:26: So what would limerence look like in that situation? 
 24:30: Mhm. 
 24:30: So, I, I think the book, didn't talk, talk much about breakup. 
 24:34: It's mainly for, he didn't, for, for people that didn't get into couples, but I, it is generalizable in the sense that, some people after they break up, they want to get back together, right? 
 24:48: So it's a, resemblance, and I would say that, at least according to that book, limerence need to be sustained by hope. 
 24:59: If your mental, if your thought is like, OK, there's, there can be absolutely no hope, I would say that's more like grief instead of, numerence in that regard. 
 25:10: but, you know, sometimes it's not yes and no, and I think, the art of the book is that, when you are nimerant about somebody. 
 25:20: basically, your mind is quite different from your normal state. 
 25:23: You would interpret every gesture as a possibility of reciprocating or possibility. 
 25:30: So for example, they are saying happy birthday to you. 
 25:34: I think it's quite common, right? 
 25:36: Like I don't play Facebook anymore, but if you look at my Facebook like every year, like 10 people, they said happy birthday to me, that means nothing, right? 
 25:45: Yes, it's automated message on my LinkedIn. 
 25:48: I got a lot of happy birthday wishes as well. 
 25:50: I, I believe it's the same for you, right? 
 25:52: We have automated WeChat function like, like our like social network building. 
 26:00: but that message, that happy birthday message is different. 
 26:03: It's just different. 
 26:05: Maybe it's not different, but your mind would think that it's different. 
 26:09: So, I would say, you have a lens, you have a filtering lens on that. 
 26:15: in that regard. 
 26:17: So, the threshold for a hope is quite low. 
 26:20: It's quite easy to cross the threshold. 
 26:23: And, I remember some scholar picked up on Dorothy Tenoff's work, and they said, the thought pattern of those who are limeate towards other people. 
 26:34: resembles an obsessive and compulsive pattern, which is like the OCD in the, psychopathological, like, lexicon. 
 26:45: one of the signatures intrusive thoughts. 
 26:47: You just couldn't stop but think about that person. 
 26:50: Think about the possibility. 
 26:53: So I would say that's the parallel, but if it's like, OK, that's really low hope, then I would say grief would be a more, would be like psychological construct that fits into the loss of the relationship more than immiance. 
 27:08: So it depends on the stage, like how far you apart, are you still talking, that sort of thing. 
 27:13: Makes sense. 
 27:15: Wow, thank you for answering that because I was curious. 
 27:18: And I have a very curious mind if you, if you can sense this, like already, and that's why because you're a psychologist and I'm like, this is my moment to ask you everything that I want to ask. 
 27:29: So, what is, what do you think betrayal does in terms of trust, right? 
 27:36: Not just with others, but within yourself, especially. 
 27:40: The woman got betrayed, and now she's breaking up. 
 27:44: What does it feel like? 
 27:45: What does the word even trust feels to a woman who has been betrayed? 
 27:49: , I, I think a deeper issue is that, It's not just about the person, it's about the quality of your love, the quality of your efforts as well. 
 28:02: So this is quite a complicated concept, and let me try to explain it. 
 28:06: This is the first time I do English, so hopefully I could do it well enough. 
 28:10: You're doing well. 
 28:11: Thank you, sir. 
 28:12: Hopefully. 
 28:13: So, there's a psychoanalytic scholar called Furban, Ronald Furban, which I, I, I kind of like him. 
 28:21: His book is really insightful. 
 28:23: And they said, OK, a person has two objectives. 
 28:27: First of all, we have to receive love, and the second of which we have to give love. 
 28:33: So, and, in a like functioning relationship. 
 28:37: you can see that the quality of love for the psychoanalytic Mexican, the libido is flowing to, flowing between the two, persons. 
 28:47: For example, I love you and you love me. 
 28:49: that's the ideal situation, of course, there would be frustration, there would be, cases of blockage or flowing through the libido, but they could be repaired. 
 28:59: For example, they talk it out, they, it's called rupture and repair in the psychological, That term, but, think about it, breakup, especially betrayal, it's quite different, right? 
 29:12: it is different in two senses. 
 29:15: The first of which is that it is not repairable. 
 29:18: If you're thinking, OK, it's the end of the relationship, some people, they still attempt to repair it, and in some cases, it is repairable, but for some people, they would just put a period, they would just put a full stop on the relationship. 
 29:31: So the channels no longer exist. 
 29:35: so, the second issue is that, You start to look back in your times. 
 29:40: What is the quality of your love given and the quality of your love that you received? 
 29:46: is it real and is it genuine? 
 29:50: So, some psychological formations would be like, am I really capable of giving love that would be received, by the other? 
 29:58: Because the line of thought is, had they received my love, then there would be a relationship. 
 30:04: But the fact that they are on surface receiving my love, but instead doing something else. 
 30:11: that would signifies, the concept that, OK, my love is not being received. 
 30:17: So, ramifications is, is that, could I still give love? 
 30:23: And, according to, Furburn, he coined the concept, for example, the love we could not give, the love, the affect we couldn't give out, they would flow inward and direct to different objects. 
 30:38: different objects means that maybe not a person, but rather an ideology or example or an interest, or maybe some aversion in extreme cases. 
 30:49: So, but. 
 30:51: You could see that, OK, to a certain degree it's actually healthy. 
 30:54: For example, I think we have heard of the story, some people, they are in colleges, and then they break up, and people, they reinvest that love energy into that subject, right? 
 31:04: For example, physics, they keep doing physics. 
 31:07: So I think this is an interesting question. 
 31:10: How do the subject, the physics, the subject takes on the quality of love? 
 31:14: Things like this could happen as well. 
 31:17: this is the functional aspect. 
 31:18: But for example, if you're reinvesting too much of that energy into internal, objects, instead of like, different real genuine relationship, it hampers your ability to build genuine relationship in, in the future. 
 31:32: So I would say it's a balance. 
 31:33: distractions can be good, redirection of, effects can be good, but, I think that the question is to ask is, is it diverting yourself from reality? 
 31:43: Is it like hampering your relate, your, your ability to build build relationships in the future? 
 31:49: These are the questions to ask and sometimes there's no straightforward answers. 
 31:53: Hm. 
 31:55: Beautiful. 
 31:56: So I think we should definitely talk about how can someone really start rebuilding their sense of self after everything feels broken for them. 
 32:06: Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is a healthy topic. 
 32:10: I think, the first one, like, no, I, I, I don't think there's a silver bullet, no one size fits all solution. 
 32:18: I think there's a few general principles. 
 32:21: the first of which is to understand everyone responds is different. 
 32:25: there's no one size fits all solution. 
 32:27: For example, I think, talking about grief, many, of the, like people on the internet may have heard of the five stages of grief. 
 32:36: the denial, Oh, so what's the 2nd stage? 
 32:40: I think I forgot, but that's OK. 
 32:43: Just Google guys, Google 5 stages of grief. 
 32:45: OK. 
 32:47: Yeah. 
 32:47: But I think one of the common misconception is that they progress linearly. 
 32:52: For example, 1st stage, 1st stage you allow yourself 3 months and let's go on to the 2nd stage, and going on to the 3rd stage. 
 32:59: Sort of like, how do you move your career? 
 33:01: For example, 1st stage, you're a junior, the 2nd year, you are a senior, and by the time you are in the 5th year, if you are not being promoted to a manager, then your career is a failure. 
 33:11: Some people, they, they take this kind of mindset in their career and their relationship. 
 33:16: But it's a curve road. 
 33:18: Maybe something, sometimes you feel anger. 
 33:21: Sometimes you feel, OK, I'm finally able to accept it, and you think, OK, am I good, and some people, they just, just bounce back to the anger stage, so it's a simple emotion, So the first thing is that it's different for everybody, and you have to give yourself space and time to rebuild. 
 33:41: yourself. 
 33:41: And, I think this is quite important. 
 33:44: And the second of which, one of the things, one of the things that interests me in is mindfulness. 
 33:50: And I think the crux of mindfulness is to accept that you can have different feelings. 
 33:54: Some people, they are just trying to, OK, I have to be good, I have to feel well three months after. 
 34:01: But, I think forcing yourself to, to heal is sort of like, let's stop thinking about a pink elephant. 
 34:08: The, the, like the harder you are trying to stop that thought, and stop that feeling, the more it pops up. 
 34:16: So allow yourself to feel the pain and allow yourself to feel the grief and But not allowing yourself to collapse, it's hard to control our thoughts and emotion. 
 34:31: But try to ask yourself, OK, if your life is collapsing due to a betrayal, what would be something that I could do for myself, no matter how small. 
 34:40: For example, it could be as simple as pick up an interest. 
 34:44: I, I try to learn when I was small. 
 34:47: And if it's too much of an ask, for example, some people, they will say, oh, my energy level is really small. 
 34:54: What about like buy a bagel that you, that you like, that, that could be smaller, that could be easier. 
 34:59: What about going on a walk? 
 35:01: But try to think about, OK, what would be something I could do to myself no matter how small I am. 
 35:07: I read a book, it's called Travelers of Life, and I think one of the, one of the suggestion is quite useful, treat yourself as if you are going to treat the, value friend. 
 35:16: For example, if your friend is breaking up, try to think about, what would you do to that person. 
 35:23: you would be with them, you would try to do something with them, you would encourage them, you would cheer them up. 
 35:29: try to do some small favors to them. 
 35:32: try to do, do the same to yourself. 
 35:33: Try to rebuild your life. 
 35:35: And, if, it's too fundamental and the, the, if it's shaken you to the core, I would say, consult a professional, counselor or therapist or psychologist would be a good option as well. 
 35:48: Or contact Peter directly and Peter is gonna help you, but you need to be in Hong Kong, or you can book remote sessions with Peter. 
 35:57: Thank you so much, Peter. 
 35:58: This was actually a wonderful conversation and you gave us so many different insights and maybe I need to ask you one personal question. 
 36:06: How many books do you read a year? 
 36:08: how many books I, I didn't count, but, I think, I do daily morning reads. 
 36:14: I'm on the, on the Laanan Psychology books by Bruce Fink, recently. 
 36:20: Wow, I, OK, this is great because I have someone that's up my part because I literally listen to 500 books a year. 
 36:27: So I'm like, and I'm Peter, now you and I are, yeah, now you and I have a competition, which I will tell you who's gonna win. 
 36:34: Maybe you need to keep listening to our podcast and maybe we'll bring Peter for another podcast. 
 36:38: Thank you so much, Peter. 
 36:39: It was wonderful chatting with you and you give us lots of insights. 
 36:44: And is any last words that you would like to say to the woman who is going through a breakup right now. 
 36:52: Anything that you would like to tell her? 
 36:54: Yeah, I think the first, the first thing I would like to say is to you, I feel you have the, like the, the psychologist curious energy. 
 37:01: Like I think being a good psychologist is to be curious, and, it's a fortune for you to invite me on your podcast. 
 37:08: And one of my, last words I would like to say is actually drawing from Yalen, my personal inspiration. 
 37:14: So, this is my, as I've said, this is my first podcast in English, but I think in Hong Kong, I'm sort of giving that, you know, just a guy energy, on my, on my channel, not that, sort of like a professional lecturing to you, energy, but just a guy having their own problems, I have my own relationship struggle as well, and I think that would be. 
 37:37: More healing to the people, surrounding, listening to the content. 
 37:42: And this is actually drawing from Yallam, Irvin Yallam, which is a very famous psychologist. 
 37:48: And one of the things I admire him so much is that he would admit his, shortcomings. 
 37:54: He would admit his fears. 
 37:56: And sometimes he has done psychotherapist for like 40 or 50 years. 
 38:00: And still sometimes he thinks that he's screwing up. 
 38:03: I think that's really giving the mental energy, the resonance to the people. 
 38:08: Because I, one of the things I would like to say, OK, no, no one is different. 
 38:12: We all have to answers to the questions of love, love and life, and, Maybe that's not a silver bullet, and no one has figured it out, but we are on the same path. 
 38:23: So, yeah, that's what I would say. 
 38:25: Yeah. 
 38:26: Wow, that, that's beautiful. 
 38:27: So basically admit your fears and be vulnerable about what, wherever you are in life. 
 38:32: That's awesome. 
 38:33: Thank you so much, Peter. 
 38:34: So I'll definitely add your information onto our show notes. 
 38:38: Where can our audience find you? 
 38:40: Yeah, so my content is mainly in Cantonese at the moment, but. 
 38:46: It's HK, search that on YouTube. 
 38:48: And if you would like to try some, like, mental health AI solution, search Mindforest, on Google Play or, App Store, and then you will download the app. 
 38:59: And if you would like more English content, then ask Dimple to interview more, so I could see you in the future. 
 39:05: 100%, 100%. 
 39:07: And maybe, who knows, I'll be interviewing Peter right in Hong Kong. 
 39:10: We'll do a live podcast one day. 
 39:12: Thank you so much, Peter. 
 39:14: I will add your information to our show notes. 
 39:15: It was wonderful having you. 
 39:17: Thank you and thank you everyone for listening and for all of our listeners. 
 39:21: Always remember, you are awakening. 
 39:24: See you in the next podcast. 
 39:25: If you just got cheated on or you have been through a betrayal, you don't have to do it alone. 
 39:31: You can book a betrayal session with me, and the link is in the show notes. 
 39:36: And if this podcast has Been supporting you, please leave a review wherever you're listening. 
 39:41: It helps more women find this. 
 39:44: And if you know a friend or a sister who needs this right now, then go ahead and send her this episode. 
 39:51: And always remember, you are awakening. 
 39:55: See you in the next podcast.