Wait, Tylenol Causes Autism?!? Discussion with Dr Kristin Lyerly

Transcript

Chris: 0:35

Welcome to pulse check, Wisconsin.

1:03

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. This is Dr. Ford with Pulse check, Wisconsin. I want to thank you for joining us again here today. We have a very special episode for you. I don't know if you guys have been watching the news, but in the news, we have seen a lot of statements that have been put out by the HHS Secretary, RFK Junior, and most notably, we've recently seen. Articles and headlines around the causes of autism. Now, this has been something that's been researched for years. There's been a lot of sophistication behind what the guidelines are, what the standard is for autism spectrum to be diagnosed. We have gone from a very. Basic, assessment of what autism is to now having a more nuanced, diagnosis. So we're starting to see a lot more kids, uh, and adults, to be frank, that have been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. Now, most recent assertions by RK Jr is that there is a connection between acetaminophen or Tylenol. And autism. And so I wanted to, bring to the forefront one of my partners, Dr. Kristin Lyerly, who is a board certified ob gyn to talk about his assertion that acetaminophen could cause autism in pregnant patients. And so we had a really good conversation looking forward to, uh, this episode. Dr. Lyerly who is not only a ob gyn, but also radio show host, sixth Generation Wisconsinite, a public health advocate who advocated at the time of our abortion ban for, uh, reproductive freedoms, at the highest level. So, very interested for you to hear what she has to say. And with that being said, let's get started.

Chris: 2:54

A big post check thank you to Dr. Kristen Lyerly, This is my, you know, I say partner in crime, public health advocacy here in the state of Wisconsin, partner in crime. So thanks so much for making the time.

Kristin: 3:05

Hey, thanks for having me. This is a really important topic.

Chris: 3:07

Absolutely. So, you know, I, I'll, I'll give you, I'll start off with a, your own personal anecdote here. So, the other day I saw a patient in the er. And she was about 32 weeks pregnant. Uh, and everything was fine with the pregnancy. Everything baby looked good. I did besdie ultrasound. Everything looked great. But she had a cold, she just had an upper respiratory infection. Uh, and she came in'cause she was feeling, you know, cruddy as we all do this time of year, kids are back in school. And she asked what she could take for her fever.'cause she came in with a fever and I told her, you know, we don't wanna do ibuprofen'cause that can be dangerous for the, for the developing baby. I told her to do, Tylenol, and so she looked at me like I had three eyes because she had been more up on the news than I had been because I'd just come off a 12 hour shift the, the day before. And that our HHS secretary, RFK Junior, told everyone that there will be a paper and a statement that he will come out with, stating that there is a potential link. Between a prenatal, acetaminophen, and autism. So I had to go to the big guns. I wanted to bring out Dr. Lyerly so she could shine some light on the actual truth and the facts and the evidence-based medicines we always like to do here at post check. So, Dr Lyerly, what are, what are, what is your initial reaction to the upcoming HHS report by RFK Jr that proposes this link between prenatal, acetaminophen and autism?

Kristin: 4:25

In a word, I'm angry. I'm frustrated. I think it's so irresponsible. I mean, Chris, it doesn't matter what kind of medicine you practice, but for someone in his position to project in April that he's gonna have an answer to the autism. Epidemic really in September. You can't predict science like that. You can't determine when you're gonna have that kind of information. So that alone is really fishy. Then to put it in the hands of pregnant people who are just trying to do the. Best things for their babies and for themselves. It's so profoundly irresponsible. We don't have a lot of medications that we can use to treat pain in pregnancy. Acetaminophen is one that we've been using for a very long time. We've got a lot of experience with it. And you know, in a nutshell, when it comes to the studies, some studies have suggested that there is an association between. Acetaminophen use and autism. Others have suggested that there is no association. But the most important thing is an association does not mean that it causes the disease. It just means that in some women who take Tylenol, they also have kids who have autism, and the latest information that's come out. Really suggests that there really isn't a cause and it's more related to a familial cause or a genetic cause for RFK Junior, our nation's leading health officer to take this information and to put it on pregnant people who are. Just trying to do the best thing for themselves and their babies and their families. I am so disappointed.

Chris: 6:04

Absolutely. Like we've seen this before, unfortunately, right? Like this is this weaponization of bits and pieces taken, taken from statistical information, taken from studies that may not have been as rigorous. One of the studies that I'm pretty sure he is gonna cite, there was a 2025 study from Mount Sinai, said he only had about a hundred thousand patients in it. And it flagged like, like Dr. Liley said some. Potential associations. Whereas those larger scale studies as a recent Swedish study in 2024, they had 2.5 million patients in it that showed no association between acetaminophen, Tylenol, and autism. So, you know, WW when we have this picking and choosing manipulation of statistical information, we end up in these situations where you and I have a patient sitting in front of us and they don't know who to trust, they don't know, you know, what is up and what is down.

Kristin: 6:52

That is one of the things about you understand this as well as I do because we both kind of dabble in politics, but we are doctors at our core. Being a doctor means that whatever the evidence is is what it is. You don't get to control it. You don't market it. You don't shine up the outcome to make you look good. It is what it is and it's really painful when you do a study and you've got a hypothesis out there and your study. Proves your hypothesis wrong. It's, it's like a moral injury because you wanna be right, but you have to go with it because that is the actual truth, and that is what we do as scientists and as physicians. Politicians don't do that. Politicians actually don't even really care about the truth. They're just trying to figure out how they can get a message to you because they are trying to win you over all the time. And this is where Robert F. Kennedy is so profoundly dangerous. He's not a scientist. He's an attorney at his core, and there is, there are some good things that he's done in the past. Like I agree. We need to remove some of these environmental toxins. We need to make the world a safer place for all of us, not just pregnant people. Some of these things that go into our foods, like the ultra processed foods, we know they're not healthy for us. I wish he would focus on that stuff. Because that is real. But when it comes to this or vaccines, that is really where he has been very visible and we were all really concerned about this from the very beginning with him, and we heard him deny it in his initial confirmation hearings that he was not an anti-vax person. Clearly he is an anti-vax person, so that is another dimension of this acetaminophen or Tylenol in pregnancy issue. It's another thing. Thing that we are asking pregnant people to put into their bodies to protect themselves, to protect their fetuses. That they are hearing on TikTok and from some of the higher ups in the government, in politics, that these things are not safe for them. They are safe. They do keep you safe. Please trust your doctors, not politicians.

Chris: 8:50

Can you identify for our listeners out there briefly summarize our audience, the current. State of scientific consensus around acetaminophen because you and I both have done interviews and we've talked about, you know, methotrexate, we've talked about a number of different medications and we've often compared it to acetaminophen being as safe as that because of how rigorous the studies have been. Right. So could you give us a breakdown of the safety of use during pregnancy and for fetal development?

Kristin: 9:15

Hey, in a word, there is no known danger to using acetaminophen or Tylenol in pregnancy. And I'm gonna actually read to you what the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommend because I think it's really important to say it exactly the way that they do. They say any medication taken during. Pregnancy should be used only as needed in moderation. And after the pregnant patient has consulted with their doctor. And the thing that I love about that recommendation is that it's about you. It's not about the random person who's out there or the casual observer of a TikTok video that was put out there to get clicks and likes. It is about you, your. Values, your health, your desires, and your concerns. If you are experiencing pain and you need to take something for your pain, this may be the right thing for you to take or it may not. That depends on you as an individual, and the only person who can help you make that decision is your doctor, not RFK Junior and not a TikTok video.

Chris: 10:21

Absolutely. It, it, it, there's no mystery behind this that almost every, I think at this point, organization of physicians, you know, emergency medicine, obstetricians, cardiologists, everyone has stood in opposition against these recommendations from the HHS. Then there's a reason why we all are. On platforms like this, there's a reason why we all are speaking out in, in, in droves, just to show our patients that, no, this video may be loud. This TikTok clip may be catching, it may be viral, da da, da, but these are the facts. This is the truth, and it's about the time that physicians stand up and that we. Combat this disinformation on these platforms on social media as well, because the mistruths are out there. We need to get the truth out there.

Kristin: 11:03

You're so right and it's hard for us as doctors. We are not trained to talk with media. We are not trained to do this kind of a social media thing, and frankly, we're really busy. There's a doctor shortage. Most of us are working like crazy just to take care of our own individual patients. So that's why you don't see as many regular doctors as Dr. Ford and I out there sharing this information. But I think we're seeing more and more doctors who sense that we need to speak up. I mean, how many times did you see as an emergency medicine doctor, people show up in your ER during COVID having. Strength the Kool-Aid, having believed what politicians, like Ron Johnson said about the COVID vaccine and about making yourself, keeping yourself safe during COVID, and there they were sick and vulnerable, and at that moment they understood that they needed help. They needed something different, and you could do nothing for them because prevention was what was necessary. I can't imagine how crushing that was for you. Yeah,

Chris: 12:06

no, and, and you know, we're, we're seeing it again, right? Like you, you brought up vaccines here and we'll have an episode coming up with a pediatrician that I just did recently. Then when she talked about her experiences, where, you know, the the MMR vaccine wasn't available, and she saw the reality of children's coming in. They had an entire wing for measles, right. And you could see, you know, how many of those kids were affected. And unfortunately were at the precipice of. Not only measles, but other conditions that are avoidable. You have that ounce of prevention, right, that we, we may be faced with here in the United States. So, you know, these are times that that, that we need advocates more so than anything else. We need community leaders to stand up against this as much as possible

Kristin: 12:45

just north of us here in, in Oconto County, we've got a significant measles outbreak right here in Wisconsin. And all of those folks are unvaccinated. And two thirds of them are children. So we are really putting our children at risk by not making responsible evidence-based decisions for our own healthcare.

Chris: 13:03

Absolutely. In your information, given some of these suggestions that are coming outta HHS and these recommendations that are coming out. How should obstetricians, how should physicians counsel their patients in, in, in light of these contentions that we're having, that, you know, this headbutting that we're having with these misguided recommendations,

Kristin: 13:21

it's just like everything else. This has to be about you. So shared decision making, using evidence and data, and your own personal information and questions and needs and desires. That is what needs to go into how you choose to proceed with your health. You know, to be very fair, there are people who should not take acetaminophen. There are people who should not get vaccines, but most people can, and most people can do it safely. And if you choose to do that in your pregnancy, you deserve to be supported. You deserve the information that you need so that you can live your healthiest and best life, both for you. And for the baby that you're growing inside of you and for your whole family. So there is a lot at stake here. But the heart of it is making important evidence-based personalized medical decisions, not letting politicians influence you. Absolutely.

Chris: 14:18

Another thing this upcoming HHS report reportedly is gonna mention is how low folate status is a risk factor, and he suggests that phonic acid supplementation for reducing autism symptoms is there. Any science that you, that you know of, like coming from the ACOG perspective on this approach?

Kristin: 14:36

I am not familiar with any good data. On this, and in fact, ACOG has not published any information about this. In particular, my suspicion, and this is what tends to happen with these pseudoscience interventions and recommendations, is they find this grain of something that could have some truth to it. A great example is Ivermectin in COVID. Ivermectin has been shown in a Petri dish to treat COVID, but it's giant doses that people can't tolerate and it doesn't actually work in human beings, but they take that little bit of information that works in the lab and they blow it up and they make it a political issue. It's the same thing here. We have to be really careful about how we use science, really responsible, and we have to accept that responsibility when science takes a turn and does something that we don't want it to do. Because that is the truth. That's what science does, and that is our obligation as scientists and physicians to follow through with our patients.

Chris: 15:35

Yeah. And again, science doesn't care about your argument. It doesn't care about your position. Science is science. Right. It is measurable. That's right. It's repeat. It is reproducible. Right. And so that is what we were taught in our medical training. That's how scientists do their research. That's, that's the gold standard. And so we need to continue to adhere to it.

Kristin: 15:51

That's exactly right. And we need to make our own personal healthcare decisions based on our own personal needs, not. Political whims.

Chris: 15:59

Finally, Dr. Lyerly what is the single most important takeaway that you would have for a pregnant person right now if they were sitting in front of you regarding acetaminophen use, regarding some of the things that they may hear in this report? Because these are the small things that we are, you know, surmise will be in the report, but who knows what else is gonna be there. So what, what other recommendations do you have for those folks?

Kristin: 16:19

Yeah, and these things really influence people's decision making and they really undermine trust in your physician. So I think the most important thing that we as physicians can do is to build that trust back, and the only way to do that is to listen and to be consistent and reliable and then to reassure our patients that those are just things that people are saying that's entertainment. It is literally just entertainment. I am here for you and I want you to have the information that you need to make your best healthcare decisions.

Chris: 16:53

Absolutely, absolutely. Straight from the source. Dr. Liley, I thank you so much for making the time, for coming out, answering some of these questions from our listeners and hope to have you back. Best of luck with everything. Glad to have you back in the state of Wisconsin too.

Kristin: 17:05

It is so good to be back and Dr. Ford, anytime you wanna hang out, you know I am in here the best.

Chris: 17:11

I got you. I got you my friend. Alright, have a good one.

17:14

I think the common theme is that we are living in unprecedented times. Where up is down and down is up and there's something to be said about that. There's something to be said about the stance that we all are taking and that we all have to take in order to better the lives of our patients in order to maintain the integrity of the science that is needed to maintain public health. And so I want everyone who is listening to this to know that we all are gonna continue to fight for your health, continue to fight for the public good,, and to continue to speak out for all of my healthcare providers, all of my allied healthcare workers. Continue to fight for your patients, continue to fight for your families, and for your communities because this disinformation and misinformation has long been getting out of control. And unfortunately now we are going to have to stand at attention and to push even harder now that the information is coming from the highest offices. On another note, I wanted to, I dedicate this episode to my grandmother, Patricia Sledge, who recently, lost her battle to cancer. A couple days ago. Um, you know, I don't really talk about family that much on this platform or other platforms that I'm on because as you can imagine, uh, in the line of work that I do, there's a lot of targeting that is involved, uh, a lot of public and private attacks that happened. But, um, I want, to dedicate this episode to her memory. I called her Mima. Uh, she was. Since as long as I can remember, one of my biggest fans, she always supported me. She always, was in my corner no matter what. And, um, she will be a huge loss for my family. Uh, and for me personally, um, we would talk often before shifts. That I would have. Uh, she would always end our conversations with Christopher, you doing God's work continue to do God's work and she would extend that when I started the podcast to, the public health work that I'm doing as well. And so, um, I'm gonna continue to dedicate episodes like this and efforts like this that I do in the community to her, because we all gonna have to. Use our resources and use what we have learned in order to make our communities better in order to continue to get the right messaging out there for our patients. And so, um, Mima, I love you. Um, we all love you. Uh, we all know that you will be looking down on us continue to guide us throughout, the rest of our day. So, um, I thank all the listeners for, uh, tuning in today and, um, uh, looking forward to seeing you on the next go round.