The MiDOViA Menopause Podcast

Episode 035: Legal Advances Reshaping Women's Workplace Rights

• April Haberman and Kim Hart • Season 1 • Episode 35

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This episode centers on workplace advocacy for women's health rights, particularly around pregnancy and menopause. Legal experts Jack Tuckner and Catherine Crider discuss recent legislative changes and the importance of creating supportive environments for women experiencing these life stages.

• Discussion on the history of pregnancy discrimination law
• Overview of the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act
• Introduction to the Menopause Workers Fairness Act
• Importance of workplace culture and communication
• Real-life implications of menopausal symptoms
• Strategies for women to advocate for their rights
• The role of employers in creating inclusive policies
• Call for awareness and advocacy on women's health issues

Jack Tuckner is a Women’s Rights in the Workplace attorney and a founding partner of Tuckner, Sipser, Weinstock & Sipser, LLP, a NY-based law firm dedicated to workplace gender rights. With over 20 years of experience, Jack advocates for working women at all stages of their reproductive life cycle, from pregnancy through menopause. His practice focuses on combating sexual harassment, pregnancy discrimination, illegal gender pay disparity, sex discrimination, maternity leave matters, unlawful retaliation, and wrongful termination.

Jack has served as an advocate and commentator on women’s discrimination issues across the media spectrum, including The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Daily News, NBC’s Nightly News with Brian Williams, Good Morning America, Anderson Cooper, The Joy Behar Show, National Public Radio, CNN, Inside Edition, numerous local television and radio stations, and at civic and grass roots community meetings and seminars throughout the NY tri-state area.

Catherine Crider was admitted to the California bar in 2015. In addition to being a lawyer, Catherine is an active labor and postpartum doula helping families. When she’s not working with families one-on-one, she teaches childbirth education and postpartum classes for new parents across the United States. Prior to becoming a lawyer, Catherine worked with parents and children in a variety of roles as a licensed elementary and special educator.

Catherine also writes for websites on women’s health and parenting related topics. Materials she has produced can be found on Forbes.com, Healthline.com, and Education.com.

Website: https://womensrightsny.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacktuckner
https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-crider-2b5b3232

LINKS:

Website: https://www.midovia.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mymidovia
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/midovia
Email Us: info@midovia.com

MiDOViA is dedicated to changing the narrative about menopause by educating, raising awareness & supporting women in this stage of life, both at home and in the workplace. Visit midovia.com to learn more.

The information, including but not limited to, text, graphics, images & other material contained on this website are for informational purposes only. No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. 

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Medovia Menopause Podcast Business Edition, your trusted source for insights on menopause and midlife in the workplace. Each episode features meaningful conversations with inspiring guests. Tune in and enjoy the show. Hi everyone, welcome to the Medovia Menopause Podcast Business Edition. Podcast Business Edition. Today we are going to talk about workplace advocacy and policy for women's health, and we're joined by two special guests Jack Tuckner and Katherine Kreider. With Tuckner, sipser, weinstock and Sipser on the show. They're New York's leading women's rights in the workplace law firm. They have represented hundreds of women and men against all forms of unjust workplace conduct and they have been advocating for women's rights since 1999. Thank you so much for doing what you do. We're looking forward to having you on the show today. So maybe, to start us off, either one of you if you want to jump in, catherine or Jack can you tell us a little bit about yourselves, give us a little bit of background and how you got started doing what you do?

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Thanks for having us April. Catherine, would you like to go first, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, yeah, and thank you so much, april. We're excited to talk with you and your listeners today. My name is Katherine Kreider. I was originally a teacher who realized that my passion was a bit more behind the scenes, in the law and the policy side, so I went back to law school. When I went back to law school, I had to slightly change my career a bit, so I wasn't lesson planning at night, and in doing that, I started teaching preschool, which led me to realize that I had a passion for doula work. Through doula work, I ultimately ended up realizing that how I wanted to use my law degree was to help women in women's health related fields, which led me to Jack, because Jack's is one of the few firms that focuses so heavily on women-related issues, specifically pregnancy and menopause-related workplace issues.

Speaker 1:

Right. What an interesting background. I love hearing stories from working with schools, preschool doula to now women's health in a law firm. So super interesting. Thanks for doing what you do, catherine. I'm sure we'll hear more about your work in a law firm. So super interesting. Thanks for doing what you do, catherine. I'm sure we'll hear more about your work in just a moment. Jack, how did you get started?

Speaker 2:

Well, you know I'll try to cliff-snotes this a little bit and you'll rein me in if I go too off. But listen, april, I never, you know I hated lawyers as much as the next person for much of my life. For the same reasons. People often say Lawyers they're after themselves, it's all about money, they're more about corporate interests, et cetera, et cetera. And I dropped out of college. I was a psych major back in the day. Then I dropped out to pursue an acting career and spent two years in a conservatory and then did the usual what young actors do, which is 10 bar and wait on tables, et cetera.

Speaker 2:

But at some point and actually the exact point was in the early 1980s, so you'll know how long I've been around where my law school, my alma mater, the City University of New York Law School at Queens College, had just opened with a mandate law in the service of human needs, a public interest law school. You know that was just dedicated to actually empowering, you know, the underserved. So it spoke to me. I, you know I applied. I was in the second graduating class. I started out as a. I applied. I was in the second graduating class.

Speaker 2:

I started out as a public defender back in very difficult times when Rudy Giuliani was running New York and I was a public defender in the Bronx, which was, you know, for those who know the Bronx was a it was. It was a difficult, challenging time, but it sort of formed the basis of my abilities in a courtroom, which was very important. And from there, once I had the foundational boots on the ground, competencies to effectively advocate for folks, I asked myself you know what's my, my, my dislike of bullies and oppressors of all kinds? That women, women, this was, and again, this was now.

Speaker 2:

In the 90s, women were still facing rampant pregnancy discrimination, sexual harassment, gender pay disparity, unequal pay, sex discrimination of all kinds on every level, and it's like there was no area of law for this. There was no one practicing this specifically. So I endeavored, at the beginning as a sole practitioner, to open up this law firm in 1998, new York City, dedicated to women's rights in the workplace. So that's, you know, the basic background on this and, if I may say, what I thought initially was that most of the cases would be sexual harassment.

Speaker 2:

In fact, I was sort of marketing, if you will, to that Turns out the largest type of cases that I saw and still see are pregnancy discrimination cases. So that became that sort of opened my eyes to like, wow, this is when women are working or have careers, jobs they want to maintain, and then they get pregnant. This is when things go south Still do because companies resent it. They know that you're going to be out for at least three. You know for three months when you have a baby. They know you're going to need flexibility during your pregnancy and you know in a profits over people culture you were, I believe, april in HR for a while right, and you know that.

Speaker 2:

When we're talking about bottom line issues which American companies typically that's their whole raison d'etre make money. Pregnancy you know you're going to lay people off who are pregnant, who are coming back from maternity leave, so, anyway, I spent 25 years banging my head against the wall with pregnancy cases, and the more I trained other lawyers I teach continuing legal education seminars on how to effectively prosecute, try pregnancy cases on behalf of employees, and so that was essentially my life's work and I was deeply in it on every level in terms of advocating and being one of the stakeholders that was pushing for. In New York City we had a Pregnant Workers' Fairness Act the first in the country 10 years ago 11 years ago now. We were all part of getting that ultimately enacted. May I tell you now about?

Speaker 1:

I wanted. That was my next question. I think you're going to tell me what that is and I would love to hear and I know that our audience would love to hear as well, because I don't think that the majority majority of us understand that talk a lot Before 1964, there was no, sex discrimination was perfectly legal.

Speaker 2:

You could say I'm not hiring you because you're a girl, perfectly legal. And again to me, I was alive, right? I mean it's not that long ago. Until 1974, men had to co-sign their wives' applications for credit cards or loans. Okay, so you know, this wasn't that long ago that all of this was happening, where clear women were, you know, sort of essentially second-class citizens, to my way of thinking.

Speaker 2:

Then, in 1978, we now we got the Pregnancy Discrimination Act, which was an extension of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And it says you can't discriminate because of pregnancy. But that did virtually nothing. What it meant is if somebody, if an employer, said to you we're not going to hire you because you're pregnant, and you had proof of that, that was illegal. But when it came to things like what about during your pregnancy, when you need flexibility? What about when you need to eat at your desk to stave off morning sickness? What about when you need to use the restroom more frequently or you can't drive as much, or you're in pain orthopedic issues, you need to see your OBGYN, you need some type of accommodations, you're moving more slowly, you need to sit, you need to stand.

Speaker 2:

There was no, the Pregnancy Discrimination Act didn't really address that. And it also didn't address and here's kind of the clincher there was no law that said that you're entitled to recover from childbirth. You were not entitled to maternity leave, and so, employers, unless you were covered by the Family and Medical Leave Act of 1978, but that requires that you work for a company with at least 50 employees, not 15, like most of the other federal laws. Many women don't work for companies of that size, and you had to have worked there a full year before your water broke. Okay, so that's another reason why.

Speaker 2:

So I would represent women who companies would say to them but I'm sorry, when your due date comes, and you told us when it is, you're not here a whole year, so sorry, you don't get maternity leave. And the lawyers I would speak to would say, yeah, like, explain to me, where is there a law that says they're entitled to maternity leave? And I would not so patiently explain to these other lawyers that when a woman gives birth and here's what's always so fascinating and befuddling and and and, and you know, outrageous to me still when women give birth, according even to insurance carriers that don't give away money, they're disabled for at least six weeks after a vaginal delivery, at least eight weeks after a c-section, right and right. So I usually, you know, 12 weeks is a reasonable period to recover from childbirth and bond with your baby. Minimally reasonable, yeah and so.

Speaker 2:

And if you don't give that, if somebody, if somebody broke their leg skiing or had a heart attack, you couldn't say to them if you're an employer, you don't qualify for the FMLA, so you're not entitled to recover. It's disability discrimination. How does that not apply to pregnancy? Well, because it's women and because it's pregnancy and it seemed to be, they would call it elective. You chose, you chose this, it's not our problem. Businesses would say, right, right. So there was all of this trying, bringing cases, arguing, fighting for these people. You know we would usually prevail in those situations, but it was a constant, you know, coming to employers, women had to do with a cup in their hands, sort of begging for the flexibility to be with child, to have a life and a career. Outrageous. If men could get pregnant, we'd have a 12-month fully paid paternity leave policy, right, yeah most likely, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I remember hiding my pregnancy as long as I could when I was in corporate years ago, right Like 24 and 21. But yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2:

But isn't that outrageous?

Speaker 1:

I didn't want to disclose that because I was afraid that I would get fired, right.

Speaker 2:

But that's not the way a civilized culture that treats women equitably should work.

Speaker 1:

So if I if I may get to.

Speaker 2:

June 27th, june 27th of 2023, I've been saying all you know in 2024, just last year, but still you know, a year and a half ago, finally, we enacted federal. You know, president Biden signed into law the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act. Say it again for the people in the back the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act is a game-changing civil rights, women's rights legislation. We're not going to see another one like it for some time, even though Catherine and I are working on a similar menopause one.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and I want to add to that too yes.

Speaker 2:

But this was huge and this is again would not happen today, given the issues that we're all presumably aware of and what this law does now. If you're pregnant and you work for an employer anywhere in the United States that employs at least 15 people 1-5, not 5-0, 1-5, you are protected. Your pregnancy itself is a protected activity. You're entitled to special treatment. That's what it comes down to actually. Because you're pregnant, not just because you have gestational diabetes or hypertension or some other pregnancy-related medical issue, which used to be what you needed. Now it's just because you're pregnant, you are entitled to flexibility, reasonable accommodations. It's the Americans with Disabilities Act specifically for pregnancy, but pregnancy itself is not a disability and doesn't need to be, so. The civilized kind of the notion behind it was not biologically natural life stages unique to women, or at least to those who menstruate right, because whatever some trans right um, and non-binary people, but in the main, we're talking about cisgender women assigned female at birth.

Speaker 2:

Right, right, you're the only ones going through this. And and unlike and, by the way, when we get to menopause, unlike pregnancy, all women who live long enough go through menopause, so that affects everyone. Pregnancy. That's why companies would sometimes say, hey, listen.

Speaker 1:

It's your choice. That's right, you know, do it on your own time, don't bother us with it, right.

Speaker 2:

But you know, anyway, we're also, by the way, the only nation, essentially the only nation on the planet, that still doesn't think it's important enough to pay for maternity leave. Maternity leave, right. So that's how. And we have very dismal, you know, mortality rate, for you know maternal deaths and infant deaths way below what other, less industrialized countries enjoy. But anyway. So the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act finally allows pregnant women during the nine-month gestational cycle.

Speaker 2:

You're entitled to flexibility, you're entitled to light duty, you're entitled to remote work. You're entitled to whatever you may need. Again, if you sit all day, you can stand. If you stand all day, you get to sit. You need to. Again, if you sit all day, you can stand. If you stand all day, you get to sit. You need to drink, eat. Your attire needs to change. Obviously, you can't drive an hour and a half each way. You're part of it because you have to use the bathroom, for example. You're entitled to that flexibility specifically because it is just a reasonable period of time, it's a reasonable accommodation on all of these issues which, by the way, a sister statute passed the same day, essentially was the PUMP Act, which stands for Providing Urgent Maternal Protections for New Mothers, and that means 9 million more women now are entitled to express milk in the workplace for up to a year postpartum. Huge right, I mean that was.

Speaker 1:

That is huge, because I did that in the bathroom, in the bathroom right. It can't be a bathroom Right.

Speaker 2:

And it's not allowed to be a bathroom, a stall. It has to be private, it has to have a lock on the door. Yeah, so we've got a lot of good things that happened in this, like last piece of civil rights legislation that we've seen, so we should enjoy it and use it. So everyone needs to know that those days of sorry, you know we don't do that, we don't, we don't provide that or over, and that includes maternity leave, whether you're covered by the Family and Medical Leave Act or not. It doesn't mean it's paid, but it does mean you're entitled to recover from childbirth and get back to work.

Speaker 2:

No worse for wear, that's fantastic, yeah, fantastic one long, deep breath after that and sort of said you know what you know, take a day off now, like we're finally hit that number. We hit it. It was awesome. So from there and this is around the time I met Catherine we started looking at well, what's so, what's next? It's a natural progression. Well, how about those bookend stages of the women's reproductive life cycle? End stages of women's reproductive life cycle, perimenopause and menopause Right, same framework. You read the legislative intent and the statute itself, the Pregnant Workers' Fairness Act. They're talking about the same things, right. And now it's affecting all women. That's right. Not all women. We all know someone will say women will say no biggie for me, right, I went through.

Speaker 1:

I sailed through Exactly. Oh, what are you talking about, right?

Speaker 2:

And some women in you know more my generation, let's say boomers, that were deprived, an entire generation deprived of HRT because of that flawed 2001 study. So, but you know, just kind of saying, who even talks about this. Well, my mother's generation. It was like menopause. I don't think I said that word ever aloud yeah, I don't think I went through it.

Speaker 1:

You're like yes, you did.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, right, right, well, that was just because you didn't even allow yourself to understand what was happening, or, um, because nobody would have cared that's right but but still a large segment of the population goes through significant challenging changes.

Speaker 2:

A lot of times, a lot of times people don't even realize. Women don't realize it sort of creeps up on you. It comes on early right Perimenopause In your 30s you could still experience it. And doctors, historically today, poo-poo it, misdiagn. They have no training, they say it's in your head, they prescribe psychotropic meds. So it's a. It's a. It's sort of a challenging battle but on all the levels and all the many symptoms, some you know you just don't it starts with, just don't feel like yourself right, but after that there's a lot of, there's numerous.

Speaker 2:

All the major bodily functions can be involved, which we'll get to, because this is why menopausal and perimenopausal women today still have protections in the workplace, which we'll get to. But what we've been talking about and what Catherine and I then drafted, based on the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, we drafted a menopause workers fairness act bill. That, um, we you know some of our colleagues, we used to post these on LinkedIn constantly Some other colleagues got interested. We ended up presenting this bill at least the outline of what the Menopause Fairness Act bill should be to Congress this past July, at a midlife women's and menopause health symposium, a couple of Democratic Congresswomen became interested in it.

Speaker 2:

We've been working then since then, until the election, let's say on this bill with the United States Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, with select OBGYNs that were part of our process, and we've been hashing out the bill that was going to be presented by this one Democratic congresswoman who we're not even now permitted to name her because it's sort of it has stalled. Ok, because for obvious reasons, because it ain't never going to pass right now, in the next four years, but I'm still we're going to keep it alive as much as possible, but that's what that's coming eventually if we survive as a democracy, and that's really what would be needed, just like the Pregnant Workers' Fandice Act, to finally say you know what menopause itself isn't a disability either. It's a natural biological life stage change. And you say you know, reese Witherspoon or fanning herself on camera or people saying like, this is a real thing and we shouldn't be stigmatized and taboo as all women's from menses to menopause.

Speaker 1:

It's always stigmatized and taboo Like it's icky. Don't talk about it with us, it's not our problem, it's your problem. Yeah, but it's okay, go ahead. There are several other reasons why, but awareness is key. And to take that a step further, you know, when we experience those symptoms and when we recognize that it's menopause, there's still a lot of silence in the workplace. There's still a lot of fear that we're going to disclose that we're going through menopause, we're going to be discriminated against. And if we know that, the Menopause Fair Workers Act, am I saying that right?

Speaker 2:

Menopause Fairness Workers Act. Okay, menopause Workers Fairness Act.

Speaker 1:

I'm sorry, it's a mouthful, isn't it? If we know that that's not going to pass in the next four years, tell me if I am a woman and I'm experiencing menopause, should I be concerned about that? And and if not, how am I still protected?

Speaker 2:

Okay, great question. And here's where kind of the rubber meets the road. And I find, in posting about this on TikTok and LinkedIn for the last two years, that no one else really want lawyers, particularly no one acknowledges it. It's like you know what, until this becomes something, jack, you keep, jack, catherine, you keep doing what you do, but we're waiting on the sidelines for this. But in the meantime, here's the drum we keep banging because and no one can contest this, this is true the symptoms of perimenopause and menopause often actually may I lead into this? You could say no, but I was going to read a brief direct message.

Speaker 3:

I got, I get a direct message on LinkedIn from a person.

Speaker 2:

I'm reading this, with her permission. I'm not naming her. Here's what it says Hi Jack, your post about perimenopause in the workplace resonates and raises questions about what I have been experiencing in my workplace. I am 49 and recently able to put the puzzle pieces together that I have been coping with perimenopause symptoms misdiagnosed as depression last May to June. Meanwhile, I have been placed on a PIP, a performance improvement plan at work, for my inability to quote, manage tasks, unquote, which I can firmly now say is a result of my symptoms.

Speaker 2:

I have been successful in my career, receiving promotions and stellar reviews. This is the first time in my career mention of and being placed on a PIP came up. Wow, okay, so this is what happens. Her younger, pisher male manager is holding her to account for the insomnia that she's been suffering. She was experiencing emotional extremes, rage. She didn't know what was going on. That's why they were saying it was depression. It was this kind of whirlwind of hormonal activity or diminishment of it, and she didn't know what was going on and she still hadn't even consulted a menopause aware practitioner to get a clue. But a PIP for those of you who don't know, a performance improvement plan is designed to manage you out of your job, right, so that's not good to be at that place. This is your economic lifeline, your job right.

Speaker 1:

It's the documentation right that organizations need to start.

Speaker 2:

Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Those that don't understand Exactly.

Speaker 2:

But it is a setup to that. Most people don't recover from PIPS because it's very subjective anyway and they almost don't expect you to, because how demoralizing is it to get that so but here's the point, to answer your question directly and what I told her when we consulted the symptoms that she was going through the symptoms that women go through when they affect and this is just the language from the Americans with Disabilities Act Amendments Act of 2008, when those symptoms substantially affect or impair a major life activity sleeping, thinking, walking, working you know, that's like everything eating you're already covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act and entitled from your employer to an interactive process, meaning a conversation about what you need to help you to stay gainfully employed, or symptoms that affect major bodily functions.

Speaker 2:

one that's always affected is the endocrine system, the diminishment of endogenous hormones you know what's going on the wild fluctuations that are freaking people out, and all of it. The loss of libido, the loss of it affects every bodily, major bodily function and organ. When you have that from a naturopath, an OBGYN, any type of aware practitioner it doesn't have to be an MD and you say to your employer I'm going through this, I need this flexibility. These are bona fide issues that are documented. Your employer cannot hoopoo it. They can't dismiss it. They might want to, they might try, but they can't because of the definition I just gave. It's black and white. Under the ADA there's no distinction. For if it's, you know, natural, if it's not, you know people think well, but you're not really sick, it's not a disability, right, it's natural, yeah, but the symptoms are covered, right, that might be visible, but they're covered by the ADA. So I'm entitled to a reasonable accommodation unless you can prove that.

Speaker 1:

what I need, like a brief menopause absence, you know, a change in ventilation air conditioning, a fan or a break to go to the bathroom or a break. Change my pads Right.

Speaker 2:

Change in my clothing for those who have to wear hot uniforms, right the various fairly modest changes. Maybe remote work. When you're going through a difficult period in a culture right now that does a lot of remote work, the company would have to say oh no, no, no, no, we can't do that. And we won't do that because it's an undue hardship on our business. We can't afford it. It's going to put us on. That's a tough road for the company to hoe. It's difficult. And by requesting it and here's what people need to know by requesting this need for an accommodation, the requests itself are considered protected activity under our civil rights law. So you can't be retaliated against If they say we're going to make it worse on you just by having the audacity to request that. That's illegal. Now we also have the problem of women will often say do I really want to raise these issues? It's like none of their freaking business.

Speaker 1:

Right, we hear that, or I'm afraid they're going to.

Speaker 2:

Anyway, I don't want to be the one, or I'm afraid they're going to anyway, I don't want to be the one, I don't want to be the one. Well, if you don't want to be, I know. But the problem is like this DM I read, and that story didn't end well, by the way. So the point is because she sort of chose, she chose not to raise those issues.

Speaker 1:

So it ended up, and you know that happens, one in 10, one in 10 women will leave the workforce voluntarily to not have to walk down this road.

Speaker 2:

That's a big number. Self-exiling, that's right, right or get, ultimately, you know, canned Right. So it's a huge issue. So this is what's empowering about it. But, by the way, additionally, additionally, beside the disability component, it's only happening to women component. It's only happening to women.

Speaker 2:

And again, I'll say, yes, it happens to you know trans men and you know some non-binary individuals and such, but in the main, in the vastly in the main, cisgender women, assigned female at birth, are the cohort right, and so it's women. It's not men, it's women and it has nothing to do with, you know, factional preferences or sexual orientation, it's just your sex. Women are dealing with this. So it's a sex-based, it's covered under sex discrimination laws. You have to give me this.

Speaker 2:

This is a sex-based issue and the clincher, the Holy Trinity of this is that for the most part can't happen earlier, but women are typically 40 plus and 40 is the age, coincidentally, in our culture, under the Age Discrimination and Employment Act, that we're protected from age-based discrimination. So you have this intersectional sex plus claim, sex, age, disability, these impairments that are temporary, natural, that entitle us to that interactive process, that cooperative dialogue and by raising the issues, if you've got man, you know, dare I call it the courage to be that first person. But listen, if you think, especially if you think you're going to be managed out the door, if you think that it's not going well, you're just going to get fired like everybody else does, and not get a dime by raising these issues. If the marriage can't be saved, so to speak, if you're going to have to separate, that's how you can set yourself up to command severance right.

Speaker 2:

That's how you can hold them accountable and that's what makes the world go round. By the way, and all that documentation, documentation, documentation about whatever. Because, because, April, let's face the reality here. In our corporate culture, Ninety percent of us plus are at will employees. If I may go into the slight side, Right and at will employees to your listeners who don know means you don't have a contract of employment.

Speaker 2:

That virtually no one these days can command. You don't have a contract. You have an offer letter maybe. You don't have a contract. And if you have what looks like a contract or an employment agreement, it says right in it you're an at-will employee. That means you can be fired at any time for any reason or no reason at all, and you can quit whenever you want. So we don't have any.

Speaker 2:

We have one right. We have one right in employment in the United States. That one right is the right not to be treated differently because of something about us that we can't change. Typically right, and it has many subparts. This one right Race, color, age, religion, ethnicity, national origin, sex. Sex includes pregnancy, unequal pay, you know, sexual harassment, et cetera, failure to promote women but it's still one right. So what people have to understand is if, as a woman of color, I'm just going to, no matter what it is, because white privilege, male privilege, are things in our culture. I vouch for that. We know that. So if you're experiencing disparate treatment another way of saying discrimination in your workplace, microaggressions because you're black, over 40, and, again specific to our conversation, because you're a woman of a certain age or, as my colleague Lauren Sheeran coined, the woman of a certain stage, like the bookend stages, perimenopause or menopause and you need some TLC from your employer, you really should ask for it Because, first of all, sometimes they do surprise us. These days, it is a trending topic. Some companies are trying.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, if you do it, you might get the hookup. And, and top it all off, your invocation, your requests, in and of themselves, again, are thoroughly protected and maybe, and listen, this is what makes, this is how laws get, this is what this is how it all happens, we have to get a critical mass of interest people demanding it right.

Speaker 1:

The more people that speak up right, the more awareness, the more we request it. We had a question. The M Factor film is being shown across the country right now. We're on a panel and someone said how do we bring workplace training and menopause into our organization? Ask, you have to speak up and get other people to ask, because it's the masses that are going to change the movement right.

Speaker 2:

Right, well, that's what happened? With the civil rights movement. That's what happened with the women's rights movement in the 70s, so you know it is all of a piece and listen in other places. I'm doing a podcast with Lauren Sheeran, who I just mentioned, who's a an English, a British based menopause coach and trainer and expert, but in England much different, much better, and some other kinds Australia way ahead of us, everybody's way ahead of us.

Speaker 1:

And hopefully I mean the movement is changing right. There is change. We work with wonderful organizations who are really trying to fold in menopause, support menopause policy, and there are organizations that are doing a great job. There's a lot of work to be done, for sure. That being said, are there specific industries that you're working with that or you see are doing a better job than others in supporting women in this stage of life?

Speaker 2:

I don't know the answer to that question. I'm not at that, you know. I'm simply the employee rights person.

Speaker 1:

You're not seeing trends, though I'm not seeing a trend?

Speaker 2:

I mean, I'm sure there's an answer to that, I just don't know it, so I can't tell you. I can tell you where maybe you would think it was in in healthcare or for nurses and that I could tell you it's not. You know it's, so I don't know which. I think it's, perhaps, unless, catherine, you got a sense of this. I think it's more company specific than it is industry specific. I don't know that, you know they're just.

Speaker 2:

There are companies that are trying to do it, if only for the reason not because they're such, you know, bleeding heart liberals and progressives and care about women so much as they care about their own bottom line. And it's true, we lose billions of lose billions of dollars to the loss of talent. When you talk about women at the top of their game, at the top of their careers, being sidelined for all of this mishigas over nothing, because we won't support them, I mean that's the, that's the. You know, that's the. That's the rub. We don't support women, we don't.

Speaker 2:

When it comes to health research, even women are. You know, we don't, we don't test, we don't test our medications on women. It's mostly for men. It's really, you know, it's just, it's we, we all, should be outraged much of the time. I mean look. I mean again reproductive rights in general. I mean look what we're. Look where we are now, 50 years on after Roe v Wade. We're back to and we're back to. We're going back 50 years and the current. There's a bill pending right now that was presented, authored by Vice President-elect JD Vance, called Dismantle DEI Act. Oh yes, that's just all about taking us back to the good old days of women in the kitchen and people of color in the back of the bus.

Speaker 1:

Frankly, yeah, yeah. It's a shame to see the DEI initiatives being ditched, with organizations for sure If I'm an organization listening to this podcast. Is there a takeaway here that either one of you would like to share? Jack, catherine, you've mentioned so many. I mean, there is a financial benefit to supporting women. It's the right thing to do. It's the legal thing to do. What would you say to you know XYZ organization, if I'm tuning into this, what is that?

Speaker 2:

I get that if it was, if it were Catherine and I, and if we were, if we were the co-senior VPs of human resource and had the authority in an organization, or or even if I'm just a CEO of an organization, I say you know what? My daughter raised this issue, my wife I. I heard something, I watched something, again assuming a non-sociopathic CEO. I want to let's be the model for this. It's not like we're doing giveaways here. Let's be the company that we're getting written up as the most pro you know sort of pro-women agenda company. For our own, we want to be able to recruit the best senior talent and we want to be known as forget about the terms that are now not in vogue like DEI. We just want to be known that we promote, you know, women in leadership, because that's that's mostly my client base anyway. Women in leadership. We promote, we retain, we encourage, we nurture, and it's not my, we're not asking for much, it's not doing much. So I would want to do that because I know that this is something that's great for our PR and our bottom line. So why don't we be the first to do it? What would it take?

Speaker 2:

It seems to be the same winds of you know, kind of the this tension, which is why I think lawyers no matter, no, lawyers never comment on this when I talk about it. We're writing a white paper on this, we've been posting about it. I have another LinkedIn post going up tomorrow on the Menopause fairness act and no one ever is willing to say other than yeah, that sounds right. I mean, the ADA is right, because no one wants to advance that notion until they sort of have to. But that's out that to me. I just I don't, I don't get it. So, to answer the question, let's see one progressive thought leader person say I want to take our company in this direction so that we'll be on the front page of whatever publication and let's start a trend because it's good for us, it's good for business and it's good for our for women 100%, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And the question is, the real question is why aren't we doing it Right? It's it is. The cost to implement programs like this for an organization we say this time and time again is minimal, minimal, and the reward on the other side, that return on investment, is huge, huge, wouldn't it be great? I mean perfect world, and I have my best cheerleaders here, I know so your answer, of course, is gonna be yes, but I'll ask it anyway. But wouldn't it be wonderful if every organization in the US was what we call menopause friendly, and we don't use that term lightly. It's meaningful, wouldn't that be wonderful? And what would that look like? It's meaningful, wouldn't that be wonderful? And what would that look like? It would be a much different experience for so many people.

Speaker 3:

Well, catherine, what do you?

Speaker 1:

have to say.

Speaker 3:

I was just going to say that the frameworks are actually already there in organizations, and that's what I was actually going to point out to your last question is that the extension that the Menopause workers fairness act makes to the pregnancy act, your organization already has everything you need to do the menopause workers fairness act already, so you're not actually creating anything new in your organization that isn't already there. So what I mean by that is you are already legally bound. Your organization already legally has in place that when someone comes to your HR or your CEO or whoever the high ranking official in management might be within your corporation, that you already know how to have conversations around finding reasonable accommodations. And so, because that's already established, there's, honestly, no structural changes, that huge structural changes you need to be making. It's merely creating a safe environment where workers feel comfortable expressing that they are going through this stage of life and that reasonable accommodations are therefore something they need and that they're legally required to get. So, honestly, companies don't have to change that much. It's really just about making a safe space and then extending the same reasonable accommodations you would to any other employees.

Speaker 3:

Something that people find really interesting is that when we talk about reasonable accommodations for menopause. A piece of advice that Jack and I frequently give is that look at your coworkers and what reasonable accommodations they're already getting for other disabilities in your workplace. So Jack and I aren't telling women that just because you get menopause, you should go to your workers and ask for things that no one else in your workplace is getting or that are, you know, way off the given track. Literally, it's just going to your employer and saying, hey, I noticed that so-and-so is able to do this. I also need that accommodation. How can we make that happen? So all the frameworks are already there and it's really not that big of an ask. So when you say what would the world look like if every organization was menopause aware, was more open to menopause accommodations, well the answer is it probably wouldn't look that different because the structural supports are there. It's just more people would be receiving those structural yeah, it's such a good point.

Speaker 1:

Yes, such a good point. Catherine, thank you so much for bringing that up. Yeah, we're not reinventing the wheel. That's brilliant, and it's actually I don't know how we top that. I really don't know how we top that, so it's a great way to end. I'm going to ask one more question before we sign off. Is there anything else that you would like our listeners to know, that you would like to share, that we haven't talked about today?

Speaker 3:

So my caution that I always like to throw out there to everyone is don't go making a unilateral decision to change your job environment without talking to your employer and employers. Similarly, it's a good idea to check in with your employees about what their needs are. This legislation everything Jack was talking about today is really based on the idea that we want employers and employees to be having conversations, because when you have those conversations, you don't need Jack and I because you're working things out with each other. So my big advice is to do not make unilateral decisions. Try to work within frameworks of organizations and then sometimes, yes, you do need a little outside support, because not everyone is going to be willing to work with everyone else. But a great first place is to come to the table from a place of I believe my employer wants to work with me. I believe my employee wants to do a good job. How do we enable everyone to do that? And then hopefully, jack and I won't have as much of a job anymore.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and the one thing, april, that's also brilliant, catherine, because I would add to that to answer your question about, like one other thing yeah, yeah, you raise these issues because you're sort of drowning alone and you see that your employer doesn't know they don't know what you don't tell them and they're going to hold you accountable for not sleeping at night and showing up dazed. So when you request these accommodations, as I mentioned, it's considered protected activity because you're saying as a woman, as a woman who's potentially is over 40, as a woman dealing with these disabling issues as a result of menopause, and they do affect major life activities or major bodily functions. If it can't be worked out, that's when you may need, you know, a Catherine or I behind the scenes to help you get out of there, but holding them accountable and get enough money to hold you over to the next job, because by saying I believe I'm being essentially treated differently as a woman in this life stage, with these disabling issues.

Speaker 2:

And then let's say they fire you on the heels of that. That is called something in our world. That's called retaliatory discharge. If there's an adverse employment action, like a firing or a demotion, on the heels of a protected request for help because of a sex, age or disability-based issue, that's considered retaliatory. If they just say sorry, no soup for you, sister, and then they fire you.

Speaker 2:

So there are sometimes that's the way that we can hold Goliath to account with our little slingshot. The ping in the head to Goliath because they have the law on their side, they have more resources than we do is saying you know what game on You're treating me differently. This is discriminatory and retaliatory. Now you know what? I have a claim. These are the claims I'm looking to bring on behalf of people. We have, you know, but they're very slow in coming and eventually there's going to be a wave of them, like there were with pregnancy. We're going to have a law but, like everything else, when it comes to women, it's like pulling teeth. And you ask why? Because it's women, because we live in a patriarchy full stop.

Speaker 1:

I agree and I'm so glad that you both mentioned those last key takeaways, catherine, yeah, you're absolutely correct, making those unilateral decisions on your own, without having those conversations with your employers so important to recognize, those conversations with your employers so important to recognize. And then to your point, jack you know employers and managers don't know what they don't know, especially if we have a male who hasn't been around females, who doesn't know about menopause. Again, it kind of comes back to that awareness and how important that is they don't know what they don't know. So if you don't speak up and you don't mention that, you might be suffering from XYZ. That's when your performance improvement plan begins, right, I had a personal situation with someone very close to me that had an employee that was going through perimenopause, who just wasn't herself.

Speaker 1:

And you know that was the conversation. I think I'm going to have to start making notes, right, I'm going to have to start documenting. And it was, it was. You know, that was the conversation. I think I'm gonna have to start, uh, making notes, right, I'm gonna have to start documenting. And and it was, it was. You know. The next thing, uh, in the conversation was well, do you think you know how old is this person? Do you think that it might be menopause or perimenopause? Yeah, no clue, right? Um, and this is someone that is is very close to me, that had had, has had conversations for the past decade about menstrual health and sexual reproductive health at the dinner table. So, you know, if if you have a situation like that and someone that isn't aware of menopause, we have a lot of work to do there as well. But those are, those are really important takeaways. If we have listeners that need assistance, how might they find you and are there other organizations that they might be able to reach out to?

Speaker 2:

Yes, well, first of all, for us, the shorthand for the firm is Tuckner, sipser, weinstock and Sipser is the longer hand. We're based in Manhattan, in New York City. We have another office upstate New York. Catherine holds down the fort for us. In California we also, but we're not, you know, the only game in town these days. If you're in another state, it's always best. It's always best, I mean, you can. Certainly.

Speaker 2:

I've represented women in 22 states so far. It's not like we can't, but it's generally best to seek a lawyer in your jurisdiction so they could go to court for you. I'm licensed in New York and Connecticut, california, that you know. We don't cover all the ground and there is an organization called the National Employment Lawyers Association based in San Francisco, and there are affiliates in every state. Essentially, you could just find a plaintiff side, an employee rights, not a management lawyer, employment lawyer. You know, somebody experienced. It's also easy to kind of Google these days, but you can find us either calling us, you know, at our 212 number, or you can email us at info at womensrightsnycom I don't know if and you can find Catherine and I on LinkedIn. I'm at Jack Tuckner, catherine Kreider, dm email call.

Speaker 1:

There's no excuse, right? You can get ahold of us and you post a lot on LinkedIn, so I just want to shout out there as well, connecting with LinkedIn. I'm going to do that as soon as we're done today so that we can follow you and your white papers and this menopause support and advocacy that we might be able to get involved with. Thank you so much for being on the show today sharing your expertise and your passion. I know I speak for everyone out there who's going through menopause and the menopause journey right now. Thank you, we appreciate the work that you're doing.

Speaker 2:

Lovely to talk to you my pleasure, thank you.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for your work, April.

Speaker 2:

Of course. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to the Medovia Menopause Podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please give it a thumbs up. Subscribe for future episodes, leave a review and share this episode with a friend. Medovia is out to change the narrative. Learn more at Medoviacom. That's M-I-D-O-V-I-A dot com.

People on this episode

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April Haberman

Co-host
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Kim Hart

Co-host