The MiDOViA Menopause Podcast

Episode 039: Women in Work: Empowering Female Leaders Beyond Reproduction

• April Haberman and Kim Hart • Season 1 • Episode 39

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Melissa Ashley, founder of Women in Work US and the Menopause Mandate, joins us for a compelling conversation about workplace support through every stage of women's lives, especially menopause.

She shares her journey of recognizing that while companies focus on reproductive health, they often neglect supporting women through menopause, despite this demographic making up approximately 20% of the US workforce. "There's not a lot that's really targeted to C-suite executives in the HR and benefits area that talks about the how," Melissa explains, highlighting the gap her organization fills through impactful events and resources.

We explore the fascinating reality that women in midlife are typically at the peak of their careers—more confident, experienced, and free from many earlier life constraints. As Melissa puts it, "We're less constrained, we're more comfortable with ourselves, we've really come into our own and can be much stronger contributors as well as consumers." This perspective reframes the conversation from viewing menopause as a liability to recognizing it as a period of tremendous potential.

The conversation takes a turn when Melissa reveals her groundbreaking initiative: the first national free Menopause Mandate advice line. This resource connects women with qualified menopause guides for 15-minute consultations, addressing the critical gap in healthcare support. With roughly 56,000 OBGYNs nationwide and approximately 70-80% lacking menopause education, countless women find themselves dismissed by medical professionals during this critical life transition.

Whether you're an HR professional seeking actionable strategies to support your workforce, a woman navigating perimenopause or menopause, or simply interested in creating more inclusive workplaces, this episode delivers invaluable insights. Join us to discover how supporting women through all life stages creates stronger organizations and more fulfilling careers.

Ready to make a difference in your organization? Connect with Melissa through LinkedIn or visit menopausemandate.org to learn about access to the free advice line.

For WiW Events, visit www.wiwsummitus.com. 

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MiDOViA is dedicated to changing the narrative about menopause by educating, raising awareness & supporting women in this stage of life, both at home and in the workplace. Visit midovia.com to learn more.

The information, including but not limited to, text, graphics, images & other material contained on this website are for informational purposes only. No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. 

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Medovia Menopause Podcast Business Edition, your trusted source for insights on menopause and midlife in the workplace. Each episode features meaningful conversations with inspiring guests. Tune in and enjoy the show. Hi everyone. Today we have a special guest who we've been working alongside for several years now. Melissa Ashley is joining the show. Melissa is the founder of Women in Work US and the Menopause Mandate. Today we're going to dive into women's workplace empowerment and what it really means to have support through every stage of life, including menopause. So let's dive right in, melissa. Take us back a little bit. What inspired you to launch Women in Work US?

Speaker 2:

Well, thanks for that's a great question. I'm super excited to be here to talk about this, so if I take you back, we won't go too far back. I promise I was doing a lot of work in the menopause space about four or five years ago, really trying to figure out how to help women get access to evidence-based facts right, because there's so much great community building on social media but a lot of the information is not necessarily correct and I really felt like the lack of access for women was a problem. And while I was doing that, it occurred to me as a business person that if companies didn't start to really get on board with recognizing that women do age right and they are an important part of the workforce population, that if they're not well supported, that when women start recognizing that they deserve better treatments and that there are ways to feel better, if their companies weren't supporting them, they were going to be very frustrated. So we my business partner and I conceptualized women in work as a way to try and help combat that.

Speaker 3:

That's great, so great. Well, how would you say you're different than other women's summits? Or you know, conferences from an event perspective?

Speaker 2:

That's a great point. You know there's a lot of women's events in the market. They're usually very consumer driven. There are women's B2B programs but they tend to focus more on women empowerment, which is super important, and on you know why it's important for us all to get together and, I think, again, super important. But there's not a lot that's really targeted to C-suite executives in the HR and benefits area that really talks about the how right, and so many of these women's events are focused on gender equity, like ours is, but also on reproductive rights, fertility, all super important things that I've taken advantage of. But we tend to stop past reproduction right when women are in their non-reproductive years. You don't tend to see much conversation about that. And when you couple that with the shifting demographics that our country is seeing in terms of you know, our population is aging, women are aging. Women live much longer than men. They're a large percentage of the US labor force. In fact, menopausal women are now approximately 20% of the US labor force. There really needs to be more consideration for them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 100% agree. Women 50 plus are the fastest growing workplace demographic in the US and other countries today and, as we know, you know, the aging population is in the workplace longer, so we're living longer, we're working longer and I love what you're doing because it really is equipping organizations and individuals to support women in the workplace. At that later stage I will just call it so. It's really-. When they're at their prime.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1:

So talk a little bit about that. I think it's a really important conversation to have here, that women are at the peak of their career and we don't want to lose that talent. So speak to that a little bit if you can, Melissa.

Speaker 2:

As women mature and they move past the reproductive years, right, we, we talk sometimes. I mean, there's for some there's a sense of sadness right In the beginning because, oh, things are changing. But then it becomes oftentimes very freeing. You know, you're, you're not tethered to a monthly cycle, you're not, hopefully, tethered to as many of the emotional swings. You're not rushing home to take care of a young child, right, all of a sudden you have this a different sense of empowerment and control over your life, over your career. But you've also wisened. You've had a wealth of experience that you can now really start to think about differently.

Speaker 2:

So women that are, you know, past their reproductive years, have a tendency to be better managers, right, and we can look at some of the research and we can try and find some of the stats. But they also have a lot more experience that they can bring to bear. So, as you look at people as they age in the workplace, depending upon the type of role that they're in, they're usually moving up in their companies or they've moved up in their company, and wherever they're at, they're really excelling. And, granted, there's always a few that aren't. But overall we're sort of at our prime right, we're less constrained, we're more comfortable with ourselves. We've really sort of at our prime right. We're less constrained, we're more comfortable with ourselves. We've really sort of come into our own and we can be much stronger contributors as well as consumers.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think for many we want to leave that legacy. We want to make the best of. The runway is a little bit shorter and I know for both Kim and I we have this conversation a lot. We do want to leave a footprint for others to follow. So at times I think that there can be even more meaning behind the work that we're doing as well.

Speaker 2:

There's a term, it's called generativity.

Speaker 2:

It's when we get to, you know, when you get to your 40s, fifties, you all of a sudden start to feel this need to give back in some degree and I think that's part of what makes us so strong at this point in our in our careers and in our lives is because we're no longer taking care of kids right Now. Granted, you're always taking care of your kids in some way, but you're you're no longer so focused on childcare. You know you have all of that to give somewhere else.

Speaker 3:

That's right. So who should attend and what do I walk away with when I go to one of the? I mean, I've been to all of them, so I know personally but it's my favorite event of the year but who's your ideal attendee and what would you say that, if you come, what do you walk away with?

Speaker 2:

So the ideal attendee is is HR professionals, right? So chief people officers, chief human research officers, heads of benefits, people that are looking to have an impact on attracting employees, retaining employees and improving upon employee satisfaction and understand that it's more than just benefits right? So that's really who's attending. Sometimes it may be a level or two down, which is great, because lots of times we see rising stars as they're growing within their organizations or the ones that are really bringing back new thoughts and ideas, but the key with our events, and something that I'm incredibly passionate about, is making them actionable.

Speaker 2:

So, anybody that comes to the event, you're going to hear from peers. You're going to hear from companies that are making changes in a positive way, that are impacting productivity, that are impacting satisfaction. You're going to hear how they're going about it, whether it's cultural change, whether it's changes in benefits, whether it's changes in accommodations, whether it's changes in transparency of policies, but you're going to learn about different types of changes that other companies are actively making that you can potentially apply to your own companies. My fervent hope whenever somebody comes to one of our events, is if they leave with just one thing they want to bring back to their company and try. I feel like it's been a successful experience.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you do a great job with the events in sprinkling presentation style speakers with panel discussions, which are always my favorite, plenty of time for Q&A so that individuals and organizations can ask those questions specifically for their organizations as well. So I love the time and thought that you put into that, and plenty of time for networking as well. So, to your point, when you have successful organizations in the room, there's time to really meet one-on-one and have those conversations so that you have those action plans to take away. So I love the platform that you've built. I'm wondering, you know we've we've had the privilege of attending your events and being a part of them and sponsoring the events, and I'm wondering if you have special favorite speakers that you've had that you can just kind of highlight maybe you know high level.

Speaker 2:

She's putting on a spot, Kim I know it's okay. You got it. I a spot Kim, I know it's okay.

Speaker 3:

You got it. Yeah, I tell you my favorite. I know you don't want. Yeah, what was it? Was it Batavia?

Speaker 1:

No, I'm kidding, I love them all.

Speaker 3:

No, but really.

Speaker 1:

I mean, you know there's certain we take things away as well. Right, I mean sure you'd say the same thing, melissa. You organize these events and you put these dynamic people on the stage that are really making change within their organization, but we take things away as well. Right, we listen. I learn in every one of my events, every single one of them, so you don't have to name specific speakers. But what are some of those gold nuggets maybe that you really remember, that resonate with you?

Speaker 2:

So I'll tell you how I look at it. You know, I think data right is always so important. Like we're in business, we need proof points, right. It's not the only thing, but I think data is super important and we've been really lucky out in Seattle. Mercer's come every year and supported the event and they've really shared really helpful information latest research on how gender equity and supporting women in the workplace can really help lift up an organization and I think that it's so useful to get those proof points.

Speaker 2:

And then, if you couple that with some knowledge about what's actually happening, right, it fascinates me. So I am not a medical expert, right, even though I do a lot in the women's health care space am not a medical expert, right, even though I do a lot of women's healthcare space. So I always make sure we have one session that includes a doctor, a highly credentialed doctor. We had Dr Dina Gordon last year from Swedish. We had like Hasbun this year, and I love watching the audience because it's amazing. It's our bodies, it's our physiology and it's shocking how much we don't know. So, even though it's a B2B event and it's meant for you know, c-suite professionals to really understand what they can do within their organizations. One of the top rated sessions is always the medical professional, because people really need to understand why these changes may have more of an impact on how they conduct themselves at work or what support they need at work. So I love that.

Speaker 2:

And then I think the third thing for me is always trying to look at the topic from different lenses, right? So last year in New York and we're bringing him to Seattle we had Bradley Sherman from the Hume team and he's just. Not only is he just a brilliant speaker, but his perspective on how shifting demographics and population change impact the workplace is so fascinating and so concrete that if you are one of hopefully the very few out there that really doesn't believe that gender equity and supportive women in the workplace is important, you have no choice but to consider it just from being able to have a fully staffed workplace, right? So, looking at different lenses, thinking about it from different perspectives, trying to understand the organization's perspective on what they're up against, even if they truly do believe in change the value of what we're doing, how hard it is to accomplish, speakers that can really bring different perspectives and can really bring concrete evidence and facts I think are super important. So that's the part I think I enjoy the most.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I was thinking about. I was thinking about Bradley in that conversation because he was fascinating and I can't wait to hear what he has to say now, with the current administration, at the upcoming event in Seattle, the second event in Seattle which we convinced you you come to the West coast. Come to the West coast Anybody?

Speaker 2:

listening, it was all Madovi's fault. They were like they came, they called, they conquered. They were like come on over and it's, it's. It was really. I mean, I'm I'm quite grateful because I think it's it's been a really great experience out there and there are so many great organizations that are really interested in trying to do more and trying to do better. It's a beautiful thing to be able to try and help support them.

Speaker 3:

We love it, so tell everybody about the upcoming events. What are you most excited for? What are people going to walk away with Besides Bradley and Kelly Kasperson?

Speaker 1:

Who's amazing? Who's our favorite?

Speaker 3:

to walk us through the event.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so the event is May 14th at the university of Washington. I'm very kindly hosting us which is just a lovely thing in itself at the hub and it will be a half day program and it will include a a lot of what I said. My favorite parts of speakers were right there'll be some some medical information that you can use really just to better understand what your employees are going through, if you need to, and why this is so important, and then there'll be some phenomenal case studies. Actually, kim, you'll be interviewing Dr June Armstrong, who heads up CVS Behavioral Health, and I think they are not only are they the first fully accredited menopause partner of Medovia's, which I think is a feat unto itself.

Speaker 2:

The work that Dr Armstrong has done internally within CVS to really help support female employees, I think, is a gold standard that a lot of others can learn from. So I'm super excited to hear what she has to say and what we can take away from that. But overall and you will also hear from Bradley and learn some more about what's happening with all of these demographic shifts and some other ways to think about how you can support your employee populations and I think the most important part is yes, we are talking about women and, yes, this is a huge focus on women, but I think, so much of what you're going to hear, it applies to men as well. I mean, we really need to do a great job always of supporting our workforces, and by supporting women, you also do support men, and vice versa. So I hope people will leave there thinking, hey, here are some things I really could start to implement in my organization which will make it that much more of a compelling place to be. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

It's a great point. Male allies are so important, so I do hope that we see men in the room as well are so important, so I do hope that we see men in the room as well, not just women. We'll put the link to registration and everything in our show notes so that everyone has those. Tickets are still available to that event. But I want to kind of transition here for a moment, melissa, because you are doing something extraordinary on that healthcare support side that I'm not sure too many people are aware of. So can you just spend a few moments talking about your menopause hotline? Bravo, by the way, I'm so excited.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and I have to say bravo to Ally Women's Health because we wouldn't be funded without them. So there are very few OBGYNs in the US to begin with, right. So if there's, the last data I saw is there's probably about 56,000 in the entire country, right, where you've got about 300 million women right, and you've got a very large percentage of them that are perimenopausal or menopausal. There's maybe 56,000 or so currently working OBGYNs Wow, and frankly, a very, very large percentage of them probably more like 70% to 80% have not been educated on menopause. So when you go online and you look at all the feedback and the commentary, the number one complaint that you hear from women is that they've been dismissed. They don't know where to go. Their doctor's not helping them. What do they do? And there's a lot of great groups right now that are doing some wonderful advocacy on the Hill trying to solve for that.

Speaker 2:

But in the meantime, I wanted to do something that was a little bit more immediate. So we partnered with Ally Women's Health and we launched the first national free menopause mandate advice line where women can call. Women can go online, they can look at a calendar, they can sign up for a free 15 minute online video chat with a menopause guide, and a menopause guide is someone that is qualified to give you advice about next steps in your midlife journey. I do always like to emphasize that we are not a telehealth platform. We do not prescribe nor diagnose, but what we can do is we can empathize, we can listen, we can share evidence-based information, we can point you to resources and we can even point you to qualified doctors within your area, so it's something that we're super, super excited about. A huge shout out to Naomi Watts, who is the co-chair of Menopause Mandate in the US and is also helping to champion this advice line. But, at the end of the day, if you need to learn evidence-based information about what's happening during midlife, it's a great resource.

Speaker 3:

It's so cool, and can I?

Speaker 1:

just say here though the word free yeah note that.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if every one of the listeners may have caught that, but it's free and you are filling a gap that is indeed a huge crevice in our system right now that you pointed out in the very beginning of answering this question. I think that a lot of women just don't know where to go. They're being dismissed from their doctors or their doctors aren't educated and, as in Kim's case, you tell the story all the time that your OBGYN handed you a book that you already had in your possession Yep, not helpful, not helpful at all. So you know you're really bridging that, that healthcare support for individuals, and we hear time and time and time again through the work that we do, from women I just don't know where to go, I don't know who to talk to, and they're at a loss, and so oftentimes they do nothing and they suffer or they spend a significant amount of money trying to follow the breadcrumbs right. Find that provider.

Speaker 1:

It's so, yeah, they're spending so much money trying to find the right solution, and so you are really providing a phenomenal service and, you know, if you're not watching this via video, you know we've got the hands the hand claps going yeah because it's. It really is a huge milestone and we're thrilled that you have it. Now we can go. If I am a individual consumer, I can go where to go to.

Speaker 2:

This is. This is the best part. You go to menopause mandateorg, okay, and when you click on the advice line, you can then choose if you would like to speak to a menopause guide that speaks English, spanish or we also do American sign language. All you do is click on the calendar, look at dates and times that are available and pick your slot. We don't sell you anything, we don't follow up with you afterwards. It's really just and we do have great resources that are oftentimes third-party, evidence-based, credential, like from the menopause society, menopauseorg. So everything we send you or share with you that you ask for is evidence-based and is factual.

Speaker 3:

That's great, and you know we've heard from a lot of people of when they start following someone or listening that they're trying to sell them the next thing and. I love that. So I know it's new and you might not have any data and statistics yet. But who's calling? What are their concerns? Are you hearing anything? So here's what's interesting.

Speaker 2:

So, first of all, we use a third-party telehealth platform that is GDPR compliant, which means that all privacy and security is considered. So we don't ask a lot of questions. You talk to a menopause guide. We don't take notes and nothing's recorded, but what we do do is post. You talk to a menopause guide. We don't take notes and nothing's recorded, but what we do do is is post. You get. You get a survey.

Speaker 2:

Whether or not you want to fill it out, it's up to you, because we always want to try and improve upon the service that we're offering, and what we're hearing mostly is just a sense of relief. Thank you, somebody listened to me. I'm not crazy. This was so helpful. Now I know what to do next and that's. Those are some of the quotes that we get, cause we always say listen, if you want to tell us how it was great, and if you don't, we're not going to ask you again. But I think the the key is that we're getting women that are struggling with symptoms or trying to figure out if this is indeed something that they should be starting to think about. And how do I go about doing that? Where do I go learn and who do I go see, that's great Great, so good.

Speaker 1:

Are you seeing, are you just curious here? Are you seeing women of all ages calling in, so at all stages of menopause? So women that might be in perimenopause stage or just beginning to, you know, look ahead and they're hearing. Oh, my goodness, what's coming?

Speaker 2:

Or are you sitting right in the middle of?

Speaker 1:

menopause and I'm like I don't know what's happening.

Speaker 2:

Right? Well, it's a great question because you know, menopause is a point in time, right, it's really. Perimenopause is seven to 10 years leading up to the full cessation of 12 months of your period where you got the hormones fluctuating most. I mean, you guys know this as well as I do. I don't know about our listeners, though. So it's, it's really the people that are struggling with all those symptoms that are leading up to menopause. I think, right now, just from the feedback I get from the guides, again, we have nothing documented. Um is really more. We're getting the calls.

Speaker 2:

I would love, as we start to become more pervasive and people become more aware of us, that women in their 30s start calling to understand what they should start thinking about and looking for. I mean, we know that perimenopause symptoms can start as early as 30 to 35. There was a recent UVA health study that talked about the 30 to 35 year old who's already suffering moderate, severe symptoms, right, so it's really important. Just like when my daughter was younger, I sat and read the menstruation books with her way before she was 13. So she knew what to expect. Right, the same thing needs to happen with menopause, because it's not such a concrete. You know, perimenopause is not. Oh, today I'm in perimenopause. Okay, what do I do? It's just not how it works. I'm so glad you brought that up.

Speaker 1:

Melissa, I actually I kind of positioned that question hoping that you would answer it that way. Oh good, yeah, I mean I'm really really hoping that callers will. It's almost like preventative medicine, right, like and Kim, you talk a lot about this in our sessions as well in building your tribe, you know, be prepared and build your tribe before you hit perimenopause, because that transition and that experience is so much better when you do, when you can plan ahead. It's like starting your period right. If you know what's happening and you start your period, no problem, I know how to take care of this, I know what this is. Same thing with perimenopause.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because it can really. I mean, listen, there's a very lucky what 25% of women who really don't suffer from symptoms, but the majority of us do, and the changes are scary at times and the pervading sentiment is, oh, you need to go on an antidepressant and that's honestly, that's just doing us all a huge injustice.

Speaker 1:

Right, right. What do you hope for with the menopause mandate? And if you could have your crystal ball in front of you and you're looking ahead a year from now. What's different? Is anything different? What's your?

Speaker 2:

hope. Are we talking about anything different in the country? Are we talking about anything different with menopause? Oh gosh, I think I could do like five podcasts on what's happening in the country.

Speaker 1:

Why don't we stick?

Speaker 2:

for your work. My hope is that, similar to what we've been able to accomplish in the UK, is the menopause, is menopause mandated in the advice line just become part of people's everyday, everyday fabric, that if you've got a question about menopause and don't know where to go, you now don't have the I don't know where to go anymore. Right, I think it's going to take time. I think there's a lot of noise right now in certain markets in the menopause space, which is brilliant. I mean it's great that so many people are talking about it, writing books about it, what have you. But I think there's a very large swath of the country that's underserved, that lives in medical deserts and really could benefit from the service if we can figure out how to make them more aware of it. So my hope is, a year from now is we are serving a lot more of that constituency.

Speaker 1:

That's great. Well, and on that note, you know you've got an audience of listeners that are listening to the podcast. What can they do to help raise awareness and help spread that word? I mean, how do we get the word out to especially those individuals that are at greater need for something like this?

Speaker 2:

You know I think the best thing you can do is use it and then tell someone you care about, right, because if you use the advice line, if you call the advice line and you find it valuable, make sure your friends and family know about it so that they can take advantage of that same value. And if you use the advice line and you don't find it valuable, well then, please make sure you fill out the survey and tell us why, so we can change that. But if everybody just cared about sharing with one person that they really cared about, I think we'd make a lot of progress.

Speaker 1:

That's, that's great, it's the ripple effect. They'll tell two more people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, two more people and so on, and so on. No, never dating ourselves again. Yeah Well, that's all right.

Speaker 3:

I've sort of come to peace with that, it's fine. So okay, we have May 14th in Seattle. What are some other upcoming events that people can?

Speaker 2:

Yes, we have May 14th in Seattle and then we have November 18th in New York City and we launched, thanks to the generosity of Mount Sinai, health System in New York City and we continue to partner with them. So that's also another great event and for people that are listening, that might be part of an employee resource group or a business resource group at their company. We also put on programming for the leaders of those women's employee resource groups. We do once a year in Seattle at the Gates Foundation. It's running actually next Tuesday, april 29th, and then we do once a year in New York City. Nbc is kind enough to host us and we'll be there on november 6th. Those are free events, um, free for leaders of women's ergs, so people are always welcome to reach out to learn more about those if they are in those locations and interested in attending free, so much free, oh my gosh, we never get free.

Speaker 2:

Well, if we're not free, we're not going to get to the people that need it most.

Speaker 3:

Yeah for sure. Well, where can people find you? What's the best way to connect with Melissa Ashley's work?

Speaker 2:

Well, a couple of ways. You can go to menopausemandateorg if you're interested in the advice line or what Menopause Mandate the nonprofit is doing. And people are also more than welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, you know we are a lot of people just send emails with questions or, you know, go on LinkedIn and ask a question and, whereas I will never portend to give medical advice, I'm always happy to answer and direct. So please, you know, feel free to reach out.

Speaker 3:

Okay, well, that's great and we appreciate you so much. We have so much fun when we get to work with you. So thank you for you know, giving your trust to come to Seattle and for all the work that you do, because I think you know you're changing things that need to be changed, so appreciate that. I don't know if we told you this, but the end of our podcast we asked the same question to every guest, so you're ready? I don't know this what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Speaker 2:

Just in terms of life lessons. Yeah, honestly, listen, love it. The best piece of advice I ever received, especially when I was younger, growing up in business, was listen, right. The more you listen, the more you learn and the more that you can then contribute. So to me, that's probably I mean off the top of my head that's usually the one that hits me, that's what we want.

Speaker 1:

I actually love that, Kim. What is it that we say? Why are you talking? Or what's the?

Speaker 3:

Why am I talking now, or something you know where you question yourself of like why you're talking? That's like, yeah, I'm gonna have to look that up, yeah but just show that.

Speaker 1:

Why are you talking? Yeah, so, um, yeah, love that, love that advice. Listening if you're being curious is super important. Melissa, we get to see you twice in the next couple weeks I know I'm so excited about that. We've got here in Seattle, by the way. We'll have that, just you know. Serve it right up for you when you come Hopefully a beautiful day at the U-Dub hub cherry trees maybe we'll still be in blossom, so hope to see many of our listeners there as well. But until next time, go find joy in the journey.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much for having me, yep, take care. Thank you for listening to the Medovia menopause podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please give it a thumbs up, subscribe for future episodes, leave a review and share this episode with a friend. Medovia is out to change the narrative. Learn more at medoviacom. That's M I D O Voviacom. That's M-I-D-O-V-I-A dot com.

People on this episode

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April Haberman

Co-host
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Kim Hart

Co-host