In this bonus episode, Pat Flynn shares his top tips for creating a successful podcast, building a tribe of Superfans, and how to monetize with a small audience.
More resources from Pat:
Review Buzzcast in Podchaser or Apple Podcasts to let us know what you think of the show.
Contact Buzzcast
Thanks for listening & keep podcasting!
In this bonus episode, Pat Flynn shares his top tips for creating a successful podcast, building a tribe of Superfans, and how to monetize with a small audience.
More resources from Pat:
Review Buzzcast in Podchaser or Apple Podcasts to let us know what you think of the show.
Contact Buzzcast
Thanks for listening & keep podcasting!
you have to remember that every number of download every number of play that is a actual human being on the other end that is actually listening to your show imagine if you had those 250 people or even 100 people in a room with you at a conference and you are on stage and you get to present them now it feels a little bit different
Alban:everybody my guest today is pat flynn pat is a father he's a businessman he's a husband he's a best selling author he's a youtuber entrepreneur but the thing you probably know him the best for is podcasting specifically his podcast smart passive income which has over 450 episodes he's been doing it for over 11 years and it has over 60 million downloads and i'm so excited to bring him on to the show just to share his wisdom and what he's learned over 11 years of podcasting he's also a podcasting educator and it's probably not an exaggeration to say he may have taught more podcasters how to podcast than anybody else in the world as because he has the most popular youtube videos and podcasts he has one of the most popular blogs on podcasting and he has the most popular course on podcasting so through all of those different avenues he probably has taught more people how to podcast than anybody else and so i'm so excited to share pat's insights with you today pat thank you so much for being on the show
Pat:thank you for having me i didn't even think about the fact that i may be the person who has helped more people start podcasts than anybody else it's kind of scary actually we are really cool same time
Alban:we often ask people when they sign up for Buzzsprout how they learned about us and how they learned about podcasting and i'm shocked how often you are the answer to both of those a lot of people do they get on smart passive income they start listening to it and i think that's kind of the you know the entry point for them to realize how exciting the world of podcasting can be
Pat:yeah i mean that's how i got into podcasting it was a show that i listened to that inspired me to want to start my show and i think my audience is doing a lot better job than i was because when i first wanted to start a podcast this was december of 2008 i bought all the equipment and my first episode didn't come out until july 2010 because i was too afraid i was too worried i was too scared if only i'd started sooner i'd be that much further ahead but anyway it's not it's never too late that's for sure and there's so many great shows coming out now it's it's so exciting well you do not have an experience that is that far different from a lot of podcasters i know every year that i go to conferences it breaks my heart that i see people that i knew from previous years and i asked them how the show's going and they're kind of still stuck on some of the same points and i got a lot of these stumbling blocks lined up in this interview that i want you to just kind of knock down but first you've got a growing youtube channel a awesome blog and the podcast what is special about the podcasts it's the intimacy with with the person who's listening on the other end it's the intimacy with the person who's a guest on the other end if i'm if i'm doing an interview and it's long form content that people can listen to anywhere in the car on a walk on the go they can even download episodes obviously ahead of time on their device from wherever they're subscribed and listen while on a plane it's just content that you can't really consume anywhere else and it's passive listening that becomes active action in a way i hope nobody's watching videos while driving i hope nobody is you know reading a blog post while trying to also you know do a bench press or something like that but you can listen anytime anywhere and that's the coolest part about it it's it's that access to people in those places but ask access to people in those places for way longer than anywhere else and through that you can't help but build a relationship with your listeners it's just such an amazing magical thing
Alban:yeah there's something incredible when you look at the attention span that people have for podcasts versus other forms of media tick tock it's seven seconds on youtube we're lucky to get three minutes at least on our channel we're lucky to get three minutes i looked at some of our blogs and the average time is about four minutes from i mean what do you think it is for podcasting for us it's something like 3040 minutes our average listen times for our podcasts
Pat:yeah that's ridiculous right that's that's so crazy that to me just makes complete sense why everybody should have a podcast anybody who actually cares about their brand anybody who wants to spread and share their message there's obviously things that are missing currently in the podcasting space that we would love to have that we do have access to on youtube certain kinds of analytics certain kinds of reach algorithms that are in play but i foresee a future where within podcasting that all exists and it's those who get in earlier who are going to win you wrote
Alban:a book called superfans the easy way to stand out grow your tribe and build a successful business and there it is right there
Pat:i was giving this away earlier and i had one right in front me i don't just like hold my book with me it's funny
Alban:mine is at the office and i was so bummed that i didn't have it here to flip up so that was perfect timing this idea of superpowers i don't know i from my perspective reading it i don't know if you could have written earlier we've been written the same way if you weren't a podcaster can you talk about how podcasting influenced that book and how we should find our super fans when creating a podcast
Pat:yeah podcasting is absolutely i mean podcasting makes its way into the book several times because those are the people who have shown up and people who have supported the brand over the years and when you look back into my history i actually started out as a blogger i started blogging in 2008 about my layoff and then transitioning into entrepreneurship and a very successful business i created the architecture field and just i was very transparent with that blogging three times a week and of course like i said i wanted to start a podcast but i was too afraid but finally mustered up the courage to publish my first episode in july of 2010 later that year 2010 i went to a conference blog world expo in las vegas that conference no longer exists but i went there and nobody talked about the blog everybody talked about the podcast it was podcast his podcast that well that story you told about this or that one time you mentioned this and i was like okay cool but that's i'm only podcasting every other week that's all i could fit in at the time but i'm blogging three times a week what about that blog post i wrote what about this and they're like oh yeah facebook tips okay cool whatever but yeah but that story you told on the show was epic and i was like wow i think i need to flip the script a little bit i think i need to do less blogging and more podcasting because it seems to be the thing that everybody's talking about and remembering and the lessons are being learned with context and story behind it and honestly it was just so much fun and much easier to create too and i've learned over time firsthand with conversations with people that it's the podcast that helps them be become a fan i have a i'm going to turn the camera around i hope it doesn't break but if i turn the camera around you'll see a board there in the back with all these thank you notes on it and that's just a fraction of the ones that i've collected over time 99% of the mentioned the podcast there's just something about hearing a person's voice on the go in your daily life that you can't help build a connection and then want to support that person back whether that support comes in the form of purchasing books and and products but some of the best support i've gotten has been in the form of sharing and referrals connections to people who i need help from and some of the best kind of feedback and super fan like things that i've had the experience with my audience with it comes in the form of feedback people wouldn't give you feedback if they didn't actually care about the thing that you're building so to me it's it's all about the connection and that's what i'm trying to provide for my audience with regards to entrepreneurship and the struggles of entrepreneurship and whatnot and the cool thing is the podcast medium is a beautiful place to tell those stories that allow people to connect and that's the first step is that is that connection
Alban:one thing i've heard you say in multiple interviews that i love is podcasting is the best way to scale intimacy because there's something so special about going for a jog and listening to someone tell stories because we are so story driven as people and just hear story after story about what kind of struggles people are working through in their lives and the connection you build is so different than you would build from just watching youtube videos which i love youtube and i love creating for youtube but there's a different level of intimacy that we create with podcasts
Pat:that is to me business insurance for life that's future proofing your business because this book as you'll as you'll find if you read it it's nothing new really it's not revolutionary it's just here's what we should be focusing on if we really care about the future of our business because technology changes these walled gardens are getting pulled up put up algorithms are changing all the time but the thing is if you have people who care about you doesn't matter what's happening in tech they're going to follow you and find you and support you and so that's why i think superfans are really important not because you can make more money or whatever but this is how you stay alive truly
Alban:yeah if youtube decides to change the algorithm if twitter wants to try to get more ads so they don't give you as much of a reach if any of these algorithms change the superfans are the ones who crawl over those algorithms to find you and they don't get an episode they call in they're frustrated or they're emailing in because they're saying hey i actually listen to spi every tuesday when i'm driving to work and i missed it today and i'm wondering where it is you know is everything okay those are the people that we want to connect with that's the level of intimacy we have to shoot for or else all we're really getting our likes from somebody who doesn't really remember their your name and you don't matter a whole lot to them in the long run
Pat:yeah i mean that's why it's important to be yourself and to be comfortable with who you are and as we often hear it's like your vibe is gonna attract your tribe the people who will want to connect with yourself and other people like you too and i think that's really important it can be very nerve wracking at times because it's very scary to put yourself out there when you put yourself out there especially online you invite perhaps the other side to come in and comment on it or you know the trolls and people who are disrespectful but the truth is if you build superfans and you have a reason why people should stand together with you you might not even know those trolls exists because your superfans are already batten them away for you
Alban:and that can say things that you could never say yourself
Pat:yeah or if you say them it's like of course you're gonna you know somebody who is not you their words gonna mean much much more for sure
Alban:i like you saying putting yourself out there because that raises one of these first stumbling blocks i know everyone hits and that's perfectionism we listened to spi we listen to guy roz we listen to cereal and they're so well produced and put together that when we record ourselves we sound goofy and we are confident we don't know what we're doing um can you talk to me a little bit about maybe a time that perfectionism got in the way for you and how you overcame it
Pat:yeah so we're talking literally 2008 to 2010 that whole two year period was me thinking that i had to be perfect and any sort of thing that showed me that wasn't perfect was an excuse for me to go okay i'm not ready yet right and i'll put this off till later till i am perfect or till i can get ready and for me particularly was hard because i grew up in a household where i was supposed to be perfect in school like i would come home with a 97% of my tests and i'd work for the next three four hours at home with my parents to make sure i understood to never do that make those mistakes again so i was conditioned to believe it has to be perfect before i put it out there show anybody and as a result of that it was never going to come out the podcast was never going to come out until i started to talk to a number of people in the space who were very supportive and said no you just need like you will never be perfect number one that's that's the first thing to know is like there's no such thing that is a myth because you can always improve you can always do better but the truth is that there were people who probably needed the information that i was going to be sharing on my show but i was i was letting my own feared perfectionist ways get in the way of that and that felt then when i switch that story to that it felt very selfish like it's very selfish of me to think that okay i have to make it perfect it has to be perfect to my standards in order to help people that's not true right imagine somebody is like literally drowning outside of a boat that you're standing on and they're like please help me right that's some of our listeners are actually asking for our help and drowning in whatever problem or circumstance they might be in imagine you saying i'd love to help you but my life vest isn't buckled all the way yet or you know the waves are a little bit too big i want to wait to the waves are a little bit smaller so i have a little bit more stability before i reach out and help you that's such a selfish almost a jerk way to think about it but that's actually what we're doing in this world that we just don't see that because we're not interacting with that person but those people exist they need you they're waiting for you and they're drowning in something and you can save them right now and the truth is and i've heard this from john lee dumas another proficient podcaster who once said you have to be a disaster before you become the master
Alban:hmm i love it i
Pat:just have to i love it too because i listened my first few episodes they were absolute disasters but you get better each time if you consciously just go okay well that happened what can i improve on in a micro way the next time you don't have to go like huge improvement next time but a little bit of improvement here and there 1% better every time atomic habits like you're gonna see massive returns over time if you stay consistent and you keep going sure i heard you talking with you the three or four years ago at traffic and conversion in san diego and you did something kind of blew my mind and i believe it's the podcast you played your very first episode from the stage it was that it was actually not my first episode it was before my first episode it was actually a recording that i recorded in december of 2008 after i bought it bought all my equipment i had a small following on my blog and i proclaimed to my small little world that i was going to come out with a podcast again december of 2008 and you know the story july 2010 when is when it finally came out but i played that audio file that announced to the world and it was like it's like one of the most embarrassing things that i could share But I share it because we all got to start at the beginning.
Alban:I mean that listening to that was game changing for me to hear, then, and I still think of it now, because it's so easy to think you probably were born to be a podcaster. And you were immediately good at it. And the only experience I ever had of your podcast was going to be these well, polished episodes. And then hearing it, I heard my own voice, and I heard my own insecurities. And it's very powerful to see that in someone who, you know, I know the future 11 years after that was recorded, you are going to be a massively successful podcaster. And then it's nice to be able to see that because I can look at myself and go, Oh, wait in 11 years of work on this, I could be at that level, if Pat didn't have, there wasn't something special when it started.
Pat:Yeah, I always get that kind of feedback when I play that, which is why I'm not afraid to share it. But it does make me cringe like crazy every single time, I just hear how little confidence I had. And it stopped me right for a year and a half, I was so scared. But when I started to get the notes, and the thank you emails and the responses from people who are listening to even my earlier episodes that weren't well polished, where I had no idea what I was doing, I was like, wow, you can still make a difference. And you don't have to be perfect, let's keep going. But let's try to make it better. And then now, you know, 1112 years later, it's like a well oiled machine. And I feel like I'm in a groove. I'm always looking to improve still, but I feel very comfortable. It literally took years before that though. Like it wasn't like, oh, two episodes, and I'm good. Now. Now it was years of discomfort,
Alban:you have to be the disaster before you can ever become the master. If there's somebody who's listening, and I hope we're kind of making the case for podcasting, it's got this level of intimacy that is really unmatched anywhere else, people will become your super fans. And the best way to connect with them is to kind of be in their ear for week after week, for 45 minutes a week, or however long the podcast is, you can get a greater level of intimacy, build those super fans. And the fact that you feel, you know, the person who Steve started, could feel insecure right now could feel a little bit of imposter syndrome. That's totally normal. Now that we've got all that out of the way, if somebody goes, Okay, I'm ready to do it, I want to start a podcast, where should they start?
Pat:I think it's really important to understand, and try to figure out what your show is going to be about to be able to potentially even position it before we start hitting record and start talking to people or even even before we start reaching out to people to potentially Come on our show, I think it's really important to have an understanding of well, what is this going to be about? How might we describe this to others? How might we figure out what the title is, like getting those little details are going to be really key. And I love that part because it's you know, I teach podcasting in a number of ways. I have a one of the top if not the top YouTube video on how to start a podcast 1.5 or something million views, which is just insane. And I have a course with a number of students, 1000s of students have taken it. Sometimes, the coolest thing that can happen is the name, and just choosing the name and it becomes real at that moment. It's like, wow, here's the show. Let's let's, let's start talking about it with other people. Let's start seeding it, let's start imagining it. Let's start designing the logo and all this other stuff, like getting the title nailed down is really, really exciting. Because it starts to make it real. I think Seth Godin said, you know, when you put a name to something, it becomes a real so put a name to it. And it doesn't have to be the name and just a name, at least for now, just so you can move forward. And the name can always change, of course, and it does feel very permanent. Yes, I do hear a lot of people who use not knowing the name as an excuse. And I remember talking to somebody. And I was like you said you wanted to start a podcast long time ago, what happened? There's like, yeah, I never found a good name for it. I'm like you let that stop you. Like, really? I think there's something deeper going on here. But I think that number one, understand what your show is about. And then number two, I always recommend for people to kind of consider, okay, try to come up with 25 episodes, like just you know, that you don't have to nail the title or anything, just what might you talk about when you start hitting record. And if you can get 25 then Okay, you're pretty good. Because you might have like a half year's worth, if you're doing weekly worth of content that you could kind of keep going with versus what I know a lot of people do is they just jump into it. And they're two episodes in and they're like, I don't even know what I'm talking about next week. I don't ever want to be there. Again. I was there for years, where every time I hit publish, it was like not only that I have a huge weight lifted off my shoulder, but I had like next week's episode Wait, come back on me like immediately. And then I have to scramble to figure out what I wanted to talk about again. So planning ahead, getting used to kind of having a little bit of an editorial calendar, but at least just writing down 25 ideas for shows or guests that you might be able to have on the show, and where do those come from? They should just come from either your expertise and knowledge about the topic and things that you feel like would be useful to share but even more importantly, they can be answers to people's questions or topics that are hot within the space that you're in right now, you shouldn't have, if it's a prop, if it's a podcast that you can stick with, you shouldn't have any problem thinking about that. And if you do have a problem coming up with that many ideas, well, then we need to rethink the show, because you're eventually going to get to the point where you're gonna need to kind of come up with new stuff. And that's really important. So that that's kind of where I would start kind of getting into the weeds a little bit about, okay, well, what is this actually going to look like? And it's really neat, because once you start to consider what those shows are going to be about, you can start imagining, can I, you know, have a conversation about that, how might I be able to speak about that topic, and you know, you can start to dig a little bit deeper in there. But at the same time, you might actually have a new idea for what the show might become, right? Once you start putting things into place, your initial ideas start to change and morph. And it's better to do that. Now, before we do all this stuff. And then finally, what I would do is talk to people about the potential of you creating the show, you have an idea for the name, you have an idea of what the show's gonna be about, and maybe some of the episodes to talk about it with people, if you have fans already. Let them let them in on the process. It's a fun thing for them to be a part of talk about it with some of your friends and colleagues just to kind of get a gut reaction to see if they can poke any holes in it or have them start to challenge you on it so that you can answer those questions that likely your future listeners are going to already be asking themselves before they click play. So I think that that's where we start.
Alban:You got you to a YouTube channel with tons of great videos on podcasting. You do a webinar called podcasting the smart way, I think you have one coming up. In a few months, you have one of those webinars coming up. You have a blog that ranks right near the top for all the how to start a podcast keywords that I printed it out. It's like 20 pages, and it's just full of the tips that you're really going to want to know before you start the podcasting process. And then the one that a lot of Buzzsprout customers have done his power up podcasting, which is the course he put together that really is a tizzy. Everything you need to know about podcasting, you can take it at your own pace or with somebody else. But I know we have lots of people on Buzzsprout, who've taken those courses, webinars, everything. And I've learned a ton from you because of it.
Pat:Yeah, thank you so much. I mean, the course was built from a need in my audience that I didn't even know was there until people started asking me nonstop for it. I actually was recommending somebody else's course for a while because I was just like, I have a YouTube video. It's that's kind of do the job. But no, here we take you step by step videos on like this plugs into this, like down to the one of our favorite students is Dr. v. She's over 60 years old with deathly afraid of technology. But she really had a voice and she wanted to share some information with people who are living with ADHD, which is her specialty. So the course she took it on her own, over 60 years old was able to get through it. Now she has a podcast. And she's in probably by now, nearly over 100 countries helping people around the world with ADHD and is becoming sort of a thought leader in that space, which is really cool. I interviewed her soon after she started her show. And she said that she she has a map behind her computer where every time she sees she has new listener, she puts a pin up on that map. And at that moment, she only had 33 I say only but that's a lot. And she her message is being spread. And if she can do it, anybody can do it. So yeah, power of podcasting would love to have you as a student. And if not, no worries,
Alban:what tips would you give to a beginner podcaster? We've kind of talked about the you just need to start publishing. Don't hold yourself back, don't be the person to lifeboat say my hair doesn't look perfect for this life, jumping off the boat to save you moment. What tips would you give that beginner podcaster if you can maybe give them two or three,
Pat:get used to recording behind the microphone. It's super awkward. It's It's so weird to like, talk to yourself on a microphone. And what can help is imagining your ideal listener, the person that you're speaking to, or even a person that you have once spoken to who an episode might be for if you consider that it's a little bit easier when you start to notice that there's other people on the other end. If you want to do an interview show, start with people who you already know. So it's not weird and awkward for you at the start. There's likely people in your network or colleagues or even at least a friend of a friend who might be able and willing to come on the show to share some information. When with regards to interviews, I know it can be very scary. On one hand, yeah, it's kind of easy, because you just have to ask questions. But on the other hand, you're driving the show, it's really up to you. And my favorite piece of advice was just be genuinely curious. If you're doing an interview, just be genuinely curious. It's going to guide your questions, it's going to guide the follow up questions, it's going to guide you in terms of, you know, as long as you know the purpose of that episode and what you want a listener to end up at after then sort of all signs point to that. So that could be really key and really helpful. I think marketing is a very, very important component of podcasting that's often overlooked. Most people focus on Okay, let's just get the show out. And then we find our listeners, right. But I like to take the approach of Okay, imagine you have listeners, let's build a show for them. Right. I think it was a Seth Godin quote that was like, that's very similar to that. He said, you know, don't Find customers for your products, find products for your customers. And the same thing goes with your listeners, like don't build a podcast and then try to find listeners build a podcast for your listeners. And that can be really key. And I think seeding the idea that you're going to come out with a podcast can be great because it number one lets people know about it ahead of time. So they're not like, surprised or blind by cited by it later. It also holds you accountable. Because one of the best things that we teach in our courses like pick a date, pick a launch date, a month or two, at least ahead of time, so that you have some time to build hype and build the business and build the podcast, get all the systems in place, use Buzzsprout, and all that good stuff. And then you'll have enough time to build perhaps a launch marketing team, like a team of listeners who maybe get early access to the show ahead of time, so you can launch it. And you'll already have reviews on day one from those people who are probably going to be super fanatical about the fact that they get early access to this, get your friends and family on board, let them know about it and ask them if they know anybody who might be interested in these topics to let them know about it to other tips. I'm just brain dumping right now. That's, that's,
Alban:I love
Pat:it. Because every one of these tips are there's like a handful of people that it's like the tip that they need to hear. And we cut a couple of the mouth. That is perfectly okay, because these are all great is a great. So make sure that when you launch you launch with, I recommend launching with three episodes like on day one, when you launch because that way, a person who listens now has more to listen to that increases your download numbers and increases the likelihood that they're going to be subscriber increases the likelihood that they might leave a review because they've had more episodes, maybe a person is more interested in Episode Three first, that's the one that's bringing them in because of a good title. And then they go 312 or 321 or 213, whatever. There's just more opportunity there. And number two, I wouldn't worry. So this is the biggest tip. Yes, the numbers are important. Having downloads that, you know, you're going to look at your download numbers, it's I'm not gonna say don't look at your stats, or it's not about the stats. Of course, stats are important. But you have to remember that every number of download every number of play, that is a actual human being on the other end, that is actually listening to your show. So I know a lot of podcasters who are like, yeah, I only get like 250 downloads per episode. It's really hard. I'm not encouraged. Because my friend who also started a podcast has 100,000 downloads per month. And I'm just not feeling it. Like I don't think my podcast is successful. Well imagine if you had those 250 people or even 100 people in a room with you at a conference and you are on stage and you get to present to them. Now it feels a little bit different. What's the difference, there is no difference, it's just it's actually you're actually in a more intimate setting than if you were on stage because you're actually in their ear. So when you imagine that you can actually start to relate to and start to speak to those people who are in that audience in that way. And not focus so much on the fact that you don't have giant numbers, but the fact that you have human beings who are listening on the other end, and that's who you're doing this for and when you provide value, when you show up and serve first, you're going to be rewarded for that. And if you're trying to build a business out of this, your earnings are a byproduct of how well you serve your audience. So so that's the biggest tip because it's going to be for many people very discouraging, when in fact, this is actually a super great start. And you can't compare yourself to another podcaster. Because you both have different stories, you have different circumstances, you have different audiences, different mechanisms to find people, you got to compare yourself to yourself in your last episode to yourself last month to yourself last year, if you start playing that comparison game, like it's important to know that yes, you can look at other people and get inspired and motivated. But if you start to change that story from I'm not good enough, or why isn't mine, like there's, that's a very dangerous game to play. And, you know, I know, so many people quit because of that. And that's not cool.
Alban:It is super interesting. When you think about podcast downloads, and you go, the average podcast is only getting something about 37 plays per episode. And a lot of podcasters are discouraged by that number. But had they been invited to go give a talk at the local Rotary Club, or to some group that was interested in their topic, they would show up every week, I would show up every week, if 37 people were going to be there for me to talk to I would do it. And the fact that I can do it actually in the comfort of my own home, wearing sweat pants and being had a microphone, that should be a plus not a negative. And so it's so good to switch our mindset and go, these aren't just numbers that are incrementing. There are actual real people who are listening and engaging with the message that we have for the world.
Pat:And again, in every episode trying to improve trying to test the boundaries a little bit trying to maybe get a little bit uncomfortable. I think if you were to stay in your comfort zone with relation to podcasting, it's probably meaning you're not going to push yourself hard enough in which case you're probably just creating average or imitation type episodes. Push yourself Stanford's something, get that message out there and get people to follow you. and stand up with you for something. I think that's another important thing just with relation to business and content creation. In general, a lot of times we try to play it safe because we're worried about upsetting people. But if you don't stand up for something, then what do you stand for? To quote Hamilton, in fact, and then how will people stand with you? Right? So that's pretty key as well. Other things, collaborating with other podcasters, one of the best things you can do, getting on another person show and having not just the ability to get in front of an audience who likely doesn't know you yet, mostly, but also get an endorsement from people who have already earned that trust with that audience is absolutely huge. So more collaborations within the world of podcasting, I think is absolutely important. And then when it comes to things like monetization and whatnot, like, I know that a lot of us are starting podcast, because we wanted to do some things for our business. And we want to make money through ads and things like that, like the ad game is gonna take a while, you need a significant number of people listening to your show every time to have a really good conversation with advertisers. Now, that's not to say you can't have advertisers with a small group. I know some people who do have advertisers for people who just have 100 or 200 episode, downloads per episode. But it's because that product is so well positioned for those people, they've earned that trust. It's a quality listener. And I think a lot of advertisers are getting privy to the fact that, you know, podcast listeners are some of the most quality types of people of audiences that exist out there, because of the connection that they have with the host. And that endorsement means so much. But there's other things like affiliate marketing, where you can recommend a product even in Episode One, so long as it again serves that audience, you can potentially bring people from a podcast to an email list to survey them and ask more questions. So you can determine what might be a product or a service that you might be able to create on top of that to help them and starting out small with just helping one person is where I would start versus Okay, let's try to have a million dollar launch. Thanks for the podcast. So all that to say it is a long term game, podcasting is something that you're not going to create a podcast and tomorrow you're going to see millions of dollars in sales, or huge land rush of people, it can happen it has happened before. But in general, you should take the approach of this is now a new extension of my brand. And a way for me to share my voice and connect with others. And when you do that, you get people to start to know like and trust you and perhaps even find you first too as a result of the show. And you can you can just again, make magic with that and help people in so many different ways that you couldn't even imagine.
Alban:One of the examples I love from somebody on Buzzsprout is he was only getting maybe 150 plays per episode. But his podcast was about setting up call centers for businesses. And that was what he did for his business, he would help you go in and help people set up a call center. While that is a very, very, very focused business. And there's probably not a whole lot of people that are interested in that at all. It's super focused. And because his sales cycle is mostly super long, it made sense for him to do this for a long time before he ever got any clients. And then when we interviewed him, he said, it's actually the best marketing I've ever done. He was getting known as the voice in his industry is becoming the industry expert. He's getting paid speaking gigs. And he said, people that I'm chasing, I've chased for years, started listening to my show. And when they got tired of trying to set up the call center themselves, they reached out to me go, you're even listening to you for a few months, and you obviously understand your stuff, would you just set ours up? Because they built that trust forever. And he's going Wait, there are only 150 people, but if they're the right 150 people, then that is plenty. That's all that you need to make. You know, make the magic happen. Those are your super fans, the people you need to connect with, it can really work even if those numbers
Pat:and if you're trying to get four super fans, it's gonna be so much easier if you niche down if you stay focused like that. And as I often say, the riches are in the niches. And I know it's pronounced niches but it doesn't rhyme as well. So when you niche down Yes, you are taking away the potential reach of your podcast. But what happens is you also create a tighter circle for people to come within. And if you were to consider like the story of like if you go to the mall, right? I haven't been to a mall in like over a year, which is super weird. But you know, there's all these different shoe stores. There's a walking shoe store, there's an athlete's foot, there's a shoe store for people who run there's a shoe store for people who there's like The Walking shoe company literally that's their niche. And if you are a marathon runner, for example, are you going to go to the place where all the shoes exists like a Walmart or a shoe pavilion or something? Or are you going to go to the place where you know you can get that expert expert advice for somebody who is going to give you the best shoe and the product and also other things that you might need that you might not even know you're probably going to go to the specialty and a lot of podcasters I know are afraid of niching down because they're afraid of losing out on potential listeners. They're afraid of I'm pigeonholing themselves into that one thing, and I get that that makes sense. But the truth is, it's going to be so much easier to establish your brand, it's going to be so much less competition that you have to worry about. And you can become the go to person in that micro world much, much faster. And then you have options. When you when you become known for something, you have options. And if you wanted to branch out, you could I know some people who started a podcast about something super micro and then they they start branching out, right, it's one inch wide, one mile deep. And now it's two inches wide, one mile deep, three inches wide, one mile deep. But here's the funny thing. Most of my podcasting students who go niche first, to become the go to person to become that expert to become well known in that space, they end up liking it so much that they just stay there and now they're one inch wide, two mile deep, one inch wide three mile deep now in on top of a podcast, and of course, they now have events, they now have masterminds, they now have a paid membership community all serving the same little space. And of course, people who are that niched and that connected often find each other. And so now what's going to happen is your marketing is also going to take care of itself, because people who are within that small little space typically find and hang out with each other, and they start talking, and then they'll talk about you. Nobody ever goes like oh, yeah, you're running too cool. You should go to Walmart to get your running shoes. I go, No, there's a store on convoy Street in San Diego called Roadrunner. If you need to run your marathon. That's where you're going. Look out for Brian, because he's the one who helped me. Right. It's like, that's how specific it can be.
Alban:We know that this works in the product space. I mean, I just had showed the switch pod. But I think like three m, if I asked someone, what does three n make, most people are actually going to stumble. Because they make everything they go I don't know what they're known for. It's like, they make all the sticky adhesive materials that are pull things together. And they make paints and solvents and all sorts of stuff. But if I say hey, what does squad cast do? Anybody is in podcasting knows, they help you record audio and video long distance. We're using it right now. Because they do one thing and they do it really well. And when you occupy a single thing in someone's mind, then they will know what you do. And they have the ability to easily explain you to their friends and everyone in their life. But if you try to be everything, because you think, Oh, now I have more opportunities for people to learn about me. You just fade into the background noise of life and they go, Oh, yeah, I know the name Procter and Gamble. I'm not really sure what they do. Well, they do everything in every store. But you don't really know that brand super well. Because when you do everything you kind of do nothing. That's so that's so true.
Pat:That is absolutely key. So start small start niche. This speaks to an article that actually inspired superfans that I read back in the day called 1000 true fans by Kevin Kelly. And he basically says, You don't need a blockbuster hit to do very, very well for yourself. If you're a musician, an artist, an entrepreneur, what have you, you just need 1000 true fans. And that's what I'd recommend for podcasters, can you get just your 1000 true fans, I mean, start with 100 and then go up to 1000. That's really all you need. Because if you imagine a true fan, and this is what Kevin Kelley says, if we do some math here, a true fan being you know, that person who's going to literally listen to every episode of yours, the moment it comes out, or if you come out with a product, they're buying it before they even read the sales page, or if they're, you are going to be speaking at an event somewhere, they're going to drive eight hours because it's just you know, they have to that that's a super, that's a true fan. That's a super fan. If you imagine a super fan, paying you for your art, your craft your service, whatever it is$100 a year, that's less than$10 a month. That's all that's all like low end. I know a lot of people and myself included who are fans of things who spend way more money than that $100 a year times 1000 true fans, you have a six figure business, that's your that's your $100,000 you know, taxes and all that stuff aside, that's like really impressive to understand that you just need 1000 people. So breaking this down even further. That's a fan day for less than three years.
Alban:That's crazy. That is just those numbers. To think that in three years, you could be at $100,000 being making that in your business. And all you have to do is add one person who really cares enough to pay $100 a year. Those numbers are remarkable.
Pat:I mean, remember?
Alban:Yeah, then that's on the low end. If we can shift gears for a second. You have done some awesome podcast interviews. you've interviewed people. I mean, just to quote a few Tim Ferriss, Amy Porterfield, Gary Vander Chuck, you've done tons of these very cool interviews. And I'd like to just pick your brain about podcasting. interviews first, how do you identify who you want to interview? And then how do you go about pitching them and bringing them onto the show?
Pat:Yeah, I mean, I think for anybody out there, you want to first think about the audience and what's most valuable to them. And that's often what I think about. And now I'm at a state where, you know, a lot of people are coming to me. And that's great. I say no more than they say, Yes, for sure. But I always consider, okay, well, how does this benefit my audience? How does this bring something new, etc. Now, if you're just starting out, what I'd recommend is you come up with the themes or the ideas that you feel would be most helpful for your audience. And then you try to find people to support that idea, to bring them in to be the expert to talk about that thing, because you might not be the expert on that subject. Or maybe you can have a conversation about it. And you can both have different perspectives or what have you. So that's where I would start with with essentially the transformation of the audience member in mind first and then backing into Okay, well, who might be able to support that? Because honestly, you know, yes, you mentioned Tim Ferriss, Gary Vaynerchuk. A lot of these big names, but my highest downloaded podcast episodes are episodes where people don't even know who those people are until they start listening. Really example. Yeah, Episode 122, with Jason, with Shane and Jocelyn Sams, two teachers from Kentucky, super humble, super, you know, they have the Kentucky accent. And Shane told the story of when he first heard of Smart Passive income. He was on a lawn mower and stopped mid mo to talk to Jocelyn about what they're going to do in their business to start something. They ended up quitting their jobs as teachers to help teachers, and they now have a multimillion dollar business. And people got so inspired by that, because those two people Shane and Jocelyn Sams were listeners just like everybody else. And they just took action versus when Tim comes on. He's talking about all his like biohacking and whatever. And that's great. But he's in, he's in a different tier than everybody else listening, right? It's inspirational. It's exciting. And it's, it's crazy. And it's cool, because he's the author of the four hour workweek. But at the same time, it's like, oh, well, that's Tim, of course, he could do that. I don't know, I could do that. So that episode with Shane and Jocelyn Sams has actually more downloads than both Gary Vaynerchuk. And Tim Ferriss episodes combined, like that just tells you about it's not about necessarily who you have on the show. And yes, when you have a celebrity on the show, that does bring a little clout, right, it helps you increase your authority through just Association, it does a little bit, help your download numbers. In most cases, however, having the celebrities on the show, they're not going to share it, they've already been on every other show. And if they were to share everything, it would just be too much noise for their people. So I wouldn't even expect that. But people who are listening, who resonate with the podcast, who love it, and who want to share it, because it's so helpful and so meaningful, and so onpoint, that will give you more downloads, in fact, over time, so oftentimes, again, I look for the story, not the person.
Alban:So start with the transformation that's going to happen for your audience, think about who can support that transformation. And then you reach out to them. Rather than thinking, well, the most popular person that I can imagine is some political figure or celebrity and trying to land them and then hope that there's a story there.
Pat:I mean, we're not Joe Rogan, right. I mean, that's that's Joe Rogan's position, and he brings these celebrities on and that in and of itself will bring views before the regular podcast or like us. It's about the lessons and the transformation. And the person who can help best support that, whether it's a solo show, and it's you and your experiences, or the stories you pull out from somebody else and their experiences. And I think that's cool, because it makes interviewing more accessible. It makes interviewing more doable. And oftentimes, we sometimes stumble, or we might feel a little bit a little bit of anxiety, talking to somebody who's, quote unquote, so high profile versus talking to one of your own students. In fact, if one of if, like, let's say you have a course for like LTE, like, in my own example, Episode 275 of the Smart Passive Income podcast, I interviewed three of my students from power of podcasting. And this was before it launched publicly, I just invited a couple beta students on and I interviewed with Dr. B was one of them Dr. Shannon Ervin and then Robin Carrie from Disney travel secrets podcast. And I'll tell you, that was the most profitable podcast episode I'd ever published. Because not only did I introduce people to the course through that, but my own students who took it, who shared what life was like before, which was exactly what everybody else listening was feeling. And now what life is like after and how great it is, and how many more people they have in their audiences and how their business has grown. 342% that's what Rob said, as a result of starting his podcast, and the connector being me. Well, now everybody wants to go to where they went. And that was through me. Now don't invite your students or clients on to an ask them questions like Hey, tell me why my business was awesome. Have that just now. Come out from the juxtaposition of what was life like before, and how, how much of a struggle it was, or what what the challenges were. And then now, what life is like what the results of them like, you're naturally going to come anyway. And it becomes the most beautiful testimonial. And you already have access to these people. And if you've already helped these people, your students, clients, customers, etc, they're going to likely be very, very, very, to say yes to coming on the show, but also making you look really, really good. And I remember when we sold a course, power podcasting, the same week, that episode came out, that's why we timed it that way. That course did a quarter million dollars in sales. Over 150k was, was connected back to the podcast. Wow. We even had, like, that's insane, right? Like, that's insane. And we had so many people email us and say, Hey, I'm in your course. Now. You can think Dr. B. She's the one who convinced me. And I was like, Oh, yes, this is this is cool.
Alban:That's me that's so affirming to hear that. Just that that the power of people hearing those stories, because the stories that resonate with us the most are the stories we can see ourselves in. And I like you're saying we I can't see myself in Tim Ferriss shoes. You know, I hear about all this stuff. And it sounds like he's so far away from the life that I live. It's just, it's enjoyable, but it's more fantasy than reality. And if we hear somebody like Dr. B, who says, I actually don't really like tech, but I got this mic, and I figured out how to plug it together. And I go Wait, I don't really like tech, I don't understand how to plug things together. Wait, this is one of transformation that I could go through. It's, there's just so much power in that. Can I ask how you prepare for these interviews? You know that you're going to interview? Maybe this the celebrity? Maybe it is somebody in your personal life or a customer? How do you prepare for those interviews?
Pat:I actually don't do a ton of preparation, it's more of a mental preparation in terms of Okay, how am I going to be as energetic as possible during the interview as attentive as possible? That's what I'm preparing. I want to be attentive so that I can be as curious as possible. If I'm tired, I'm not going to have as great of an episode. So my preparation is, how much energy do I have? And I have I like literally like, did I eat healthy beforehand? Did I get a lot of water beforehand, so I can just be at the top of my game, right? It's just this is a sport to me and I got to perform. But it's not necessarily Okay, if I'm having an author on I'm not going to read their 10 books, and then be able to have this like intelligent conversation because personally, I'm not a fan of when I listen to a podcast episode. And it sounds like these two people are talking to each other. And they're speaking this language that I don't even know yet. From an audience's perspective, I would much rather represent my audience. And if I'm to represent my audience, I'm not going to have read this book yet. That's not to say, I don't invite people on whose book I've already read. But I don't I don't do that kind of preparation, that that that it's not, I don't want to say over the top. Again, this is just my style. Other people have their style. But number one, it saves me a lot of time. And number two, if I can just channel my audience and I can ask questions that they have. And my favorite comment is when I get people to go, Pat, you just seem to ask the same questions that I'm thinking and that's how I know I'm doing it right. Because I'm doing this again, on behalf of inform my audience. Now, there was a interview I did not too long ago, here on squad cast with Chris Voss, the author of never split the difference. 23 year plus or something FBI, hostage negotiator. Super, super intense. And I was definitely getting in my own head about okay. This might be like, like, this is an FBI negotiator. I'm asking questions to you. I'm, in fact, sort of like, you know, negotiating with him to answer these questions like this. I just got in my own head about it. And it started off a little like, because I would ask questions, and he would just have like, you know, a sentence to answer and then it would pause. And I'd be like, Okay, anyway, like, and I kept trying to go a little bit deeper and deeper. And all of a sudden, like, 10 minutes in, we were flowing, we were good. And sometimes it just takes like just getting started and realizing that you just have to have a conversation. And again, me being very genuinely curious. I think he appreciated some of the questions I had and continue to go deeper with. But it's mostly an energy prep versus a knowledge prep, to be honest, like I again, I do know where I want my audience to end up. And that's important, because that guides the questions that guides most of the conversation,
Alban:you know, this transformation that you're hoping the audience goes through, and then most of the rest of the prep is making sure you're in a healthy place so that you can be totally focused. And if the conversation goes one way, and it's interesting that you can keep going down that road.
Pat:Yeah, I let it go down that road every once in a while and again, it's my job. As the host to steer the boat, if you will. And sometimes we go off course. And, you know, I have to judge and understand, okay, how might the audience feel about this? And do I think they want to keep going? Or do I think we want to get back on, obviously, I don't want to leave anything hanging, I don't want to promise something and then not deliver on that. That's not cool. So I often have a notepad near me in case a person who I'm speaking to, has a lot of great things to say. But then they kind of move on. But I still want to close the loop somewhere. I take notes, just scribbles as I'm as I'm going, but I never have questions ahead of time. And even if a person asks me to prepare questions ahead of time, I say No, really. And if they insist, then I say, Fine. Here are some questions I may ask, but I promise you, I'm not going to stick to these questions. Because I don't want to have that, then anybody can host the show. It's not my show anymore. It's anybody who reads these questions that's hosting the show. So that that's kind of how I approach it. One of the questions I literally wrote
Alban:out now I know I have to read it, because the way you said it, you do a great job of teasing out interesting stories and facts that may not come out and and or other interviews, how do you prepare for these? And so I love to know that the way you're preparing is you're not preparing those questions in advance. And it's rather driven by genuine curiosity, that it's actually hearing something going, Oh, wait, that's probably something that my listeners heard. And they will want to actually learn more about
Pat:Yeah, I mean, honestly, there was an interview I did with somebody, it may have been Jordan Harbinger, who I know has been on here before, where I thought it was gonna be about one thing. And then he ends up talking about this thing called the layoff Lifeline as a result of what he was talking about, and I just was like, lay off lifeline. What is that? And we started talking about it. And we spent the next 45 minutes talking about that it was it's probably one of the most useful things I've ever learned from him. He and I are good friends with both advisors just wide cast, in fact, and I used that in presentations. Now I've mentioned it and have credited him with that. But if I just stuck to the script, that would have never happened.
Alban:Can you tell me quickly what is the layoff Lifeline? Because if I don't ask that now that everybody watching this, like lose it,
Pat:you're doing exactly the way I like, this is perfect. So the reason this is important is because when I brought Jordan on the show, he had just gotten basically kicked out of his own podcast and business. He had a show called The Art of Charm, his partner's essentially kicked him to the curb. And he was kind of left on the streets, which was not cool at all. I won't go into the story more than that. But what happened was, Jordan was left needing some help. And he called on his friends to help. He texted me and texted several other people. And every single person he texted, help them out. In his time of need, he got laid off, and he had some lifelines. And it was because for years, for example, with Jordan Nye, we connected at an event once he followed up, and literally like, every two months, every three months, he sent me an email, he sent me a text message just checking in and it's not like, hey, Pat, I have this podcast episode that just came out of left free to share it for me. It's like, Hey, I saw on your Instagram that you went to Disneyland. Like how was that? And it's just like, Oh, it was cool. Like, how are you? How are you doing and we've just stayed in connection. what he was doing was he was building as well before he was thirsty, building these relationships, to the point where when he really needed some water, we were all there to support them. And that's building your layoff Lifeline such that if you were to get laid off, you have people who you could reach out to and and and who could advocate for you and who can help you in your time of need. It's not and he This is the story. He told him in the podcast episode I did that I remember because it made me chuckle but he was like, yeah, it's that's the difference between that and like somebody who you haven't heard of for five years reaching out to you and being like, Hey, I know we haven't chatted for a while but I have this ebook about dog training. I think the public Like Share it with your audience. For me.
Alban:It's an E book or it's Herbalife or something is a multi level marketing.
Pat:I don't know. But anyway, that's, that's the lay of lifeline. And so one thing that I love to do now, and I've done this live on stage before, at Flynn con in San Diego, I did this live as a demo. And it was so cool. I told everybody to turn their phone on, like off of silent like let's let's turn on our phones. And everybody turned on their phones are like what's going on? And I said go to your text message, app, and scroll all the way to the bottom. And for the bottom 10 people, the people that you haven't reached out to for who knows how long send a message to say, hey, just checking in seeing how you're doing what's going on. And all of a sudden, within like a minute, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, like all throughout the conference. And it was so cool, because like when I told everybody to put the phones off again, like not everybody did it and every every, like 30 minutes one would go off and I'd be like, there's a connection that was just made. And it's like so cool, because I heard stories from people who were like, yeah, I didn't even know my friend is in San Diego right now. And we're going out to get dinner tomorrow, like, those connections can happen all the time, we just forget about them. And we've just kind of, we kind of stay in this cycle of like, only focused on the thing that's right in front of you, when many times we got to like, dig your well before we're thirsty. And that's one way to do it.
Alban:Yeah, I love those stories. I feel like it's so much fun to reconnect with people, and kind of learn more about how what's happening in their lives. And we do all know there, you have people in your life who you know, when they're reaching out that it means they need something, they want something, and a naturally get this kind of defensive posture. But if you are one of the people who's reaching out and just reconnecting because you genuinely like people, and you want to be friends, then if you ever need that moment where you need something, or you maybe just need a helping hand, they're going to be there because they know you're not in it just for a favor, you're in the relationship because you actually care about them genuinely,
Pat:exactly. So go do that exercise, everybody.
Alban:I love that I would love if you are watching this on YouTube. do that now and then leave us a comment about what happens when you reconnect to the person at the very bottom of all of your text messages. So can I ask you Is there ever been a time an interview has just gone off the rails, you're halfway through the interview, and you realize it's not going in a direction that you like, and you're not sure you're going to be able to salvage it?
Pat:Gotcha. Because there's been times when I'm interviewing, and then all of a sudden, I lose internet power goes down. And that's off the rails as well. But but more of, and there's been times when I forgot to hit record. And then I realized this after having scheduled and done the conversation, that's not cool either. So that that's not cool. But there's been a couple times where I will do an interview, and it's just like, this is dry. This person's not all here today. And I just know that my artist isn't going to like really be engaged with this. So you have some decisions to make when you record an episode like that. Do you publish it anyway? Because you feel bad that you've scheduled this thing? And it would be weird if you didn't. But you also have an obligation to your audience to publish content that you know is helpful and is to your level of standard. So what do you do? So one time, thankfully, this was a friend, I reached out to him and I said, yo, and I this is what I always do. I'm like, you know, I think it was me. Maybe it was you? I don't know. But I just didn't feel a good conversation when we had our podcasts recorded yesterday. And I really listened to it. It just feels like our energy wasn't there. Like maybe I just didn't ask the best questions. But if you if you don't mind, I'd love to try one more time. And I promise I'm going to make it more exciting. And if there's anything I can do to help you like, let me know. And that was with Clay Collins, one of the founders of lead pages. And I think it was Episode 285 No, I don't know I I know a lot of the episodes, but not all of them. I've been
Alban:pretty impressed. You've quoted three different episode numbers. And I was like, how is he pulling these out? Remember 200 episodes ago, getting good numbers.
Pat:But we re recorded it. And it ended up becoming the most fastest downloaded podcast we ever had. It ended up getting 300,000 downloads in about two weeks, which is insane. And again, it made me very grateful that we both kind of went back at it and tried to do it better. We ended up repositioning it and making it more exciting for both of us really is is really what we did. Another time this happened with a person who wasn't necessarily a friend who I was afraid to just reach out to and go, yeah, that wasn't good. I'm not going to publish this. So here's what I did. I got a little creative. There was a moment in the middle that was decent. Like he said something based on an answer that was actually quite useful. It was like the one time and I reached out to this guy and I said, Hey, there was a part in the middle that got me really excited. So excited, in fact, that I ended up changing the entire episode, like I'm gonna play your clip, to your answer to my question in the beginning. And I made the whole episode about that. Thank you so much for inspiring this because this is gonna be even more useful. Make sure to still link to your stuff, but that quote and everything you said there just completely changed this episode like thank you. And the person goes, Oh, okay. Yeah, you're welcome. That's cool. I can't believe I said something so profound that made you change the whole thing. When really, in fact, I'm just like trying to cover up the fact that the rest of it was poopoo. So
Alban:well, it worked. It's a testament to how much you actually care about your audience that you're saying. The easy thing here is just to edit it up a little bit, polish it and go well, it's not great, but not everything's a gold medal and you can just send it and it is a testament to how much you care about your audience. It's probably why Smart Passive income has grown over the years so much, because you actually want people to get something that is transformational, and that They actually will enjoy. Not just, oh, I've got to get an episode out because this is my published day.
Pat:Yeah, nothing. Thank you. I appreciate that. I don't know if you know this, but we're actually doubling down on our podcast this year, starting mid year, we're gonna have two episodes per week instead of one. Now we're leaning into it even more.
Alban:I heard that from SJ. And I love it. I just love every time I hear that people who are creating in multiple mediums are doubling down on podcasting. It's such an affirmation for what we're doing at Buzzsprout all the time. And what I mean, I really do believe podcasting is this special thing that is so much better than a lot of other content types, because it facilitates these really good conversations, and ways for people to bounce ideas off each other. And it's a give and take where you learn quite a bit rather than just reacting. So thank you so much for say that because I it those are always like the best moments for me to hear people like you say that,
Pat:of course.
Alban:Well, Pat, I know. We've already run over it. I want to be conscious of your time and respectful of that. So thank you so much for doing this interview with me. Where should people go if they want to learn more about you and your courses and everything you put together?
Pat:Yeah, smartpassiveincome.com is the place to go. You can see some of our upcoming free trainings@smartpassiveincome.com slash webinars. And if you'd like to check out power up podcasting, power, podcasting, calm, all the things are referenced@smartpassiveincome.com. However, it's just to make it easy. And then I'm at Pat Flynn on most social media channels. And even on YouTube, you can find me at Pat Flynn as well.
Alban:Well, great. Thank you so much, Pat. I'm looking forward to seeing all the reactions of this video and reading all the comments about what happens when people actually reach out to all their friends at the bottom of their texts, and reconnect. So drop us some of those comments and until next time, happy podcasting.