Podcast Listening Has Crossed Into The Mainstream

Podcasting has officially gone mainstream according to Edison Research's Infinite Dial, with 55% of Americans now consuming podcasts monthly. Does this mean we never have to explain what a podcast is again? Let's hope!

Mentioned in this episode: 

• Rory McIlroy's club switch during tournament
• Buzzsprout Hang Out at Podcast Movement Evolutions
• Netflix exploring video podcasts as potential content on their platform 
• Bulksprout: New bulk upload tool released for Buzzsprout users
• Keith Morrison's storytelling techniques and how to apply them to podcasting
• 2025 Infinite Dial Report
• Buzzcast 121: Spotify's New Podcast Strategy 

Sound-Off: Have you ever had an embarrassing foot-in-mouth experience? 

Contact Buzzcast

• Send us Fan Mail
• Tweet us at @buzzcastpodcast, @albanbrooke, @kfinn, and @JordanPods

Thanks for listening and Keep Podcasting!

Transcript

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Golf Marketing Mishap

Kevin 0:00

I haven't looked at the outline yet , so I'll do that in a second . Oh God but before we get into the podcasting talk , let's do a little marketing talk , okay , I sent Alban a news story and an online ad , and so Alban knows this already . But , Jordan , I want to hear how you respond to this .

Jordan 0:14

Okay .

Kevin 0:14

As somebody on the Buzzsprout marketing team . You're a professional . How would you handle a situation like this ? There is a company right now that makes sporting equipment and every year , the sporting equipment company all of them they have to come out with the latest version of something . So this is golf equipment . The company is Taylor Made . They came out with their brand new clubs for 2025 . They sponsor Rory McIlroy . He's doing great , having a phenomenal year , but he's like seven shots away from leading this tournament in Orlando and he's not feeling confident with the latest , greatest version of clubs that this company is having him play with and they're his main sponsor .

Jordan 0:51

Okay .

Kevin 0:51

So he pays an Uber driver $1,000 to drive down to his house in Jupiter or his club , pick up his old clubs and bring them to him so he can play the final round . And the story goes viral because it's like you know , Rory pays an Uber driver a thousand dollars to go pick up his old clubs and then think about if you're the company that pays him millions of dollars to rep your gear and he doesn't even want to play with your latest stuff for the final round because he doesn't feel confident . This is a marketing nightmare .

Alban 1:15

It's totally understandable too from like a golf perspective . It's just , it's probably just in his head and it was just enough of a difference . He's like I'm just gonna get the new one , and now Taylor Made is like what the heck ?

Kevin 1:28

Would you not lose your mind ? Think about like we do stuff at such a small scale compared to this , but like if we were , if we rolled out a new feature or something like that , and then we sponsor , you know , the pod news weekly review , and then they're like listen , we got to use the old version of Buzzsprout because this new version we just don't feel confident publishing our show with it .

Alban 1:44

We paid an editor $1,000 to make the UI look the same as it used to .

Jordan 1:51

I mean , so did he drive back to get that brand of clubs ?

Kevin 1:56

It's the same brand of club . It's just last year's model . He wanted to use the old version , not the new version .

Jordan 2:01

You know what , Maybe from a marketing standpoint , it's like you know what .

Jordan 2:11

Why mess with perfection ? You know what I mean .

Kevin 2:12

They have to sell new versions of these clubs every year . They spent millions of dollars developing this new version of this club . They're not going to toss it just because Roy didn't feel confident going into his final round .

Jordan 2:19

Yeah , I don't know if there is a spin on this .

Alban 2:22

I mean golf equipment is one of the few areas that the equipment has gotten significantly better over the last 20 years . But year on year it's barely changing . And for an old driver you can buy them used for a couple hundred bucks . A new driver some of them are like $800 .

Alban 2:41

Yeah , and they come out with a new one every year , because there's this whole group of people who buy a new driver every year , because they buy the new one and they sell the old one to the secondhand store and then people like me buy one of those and we have it for 10 years . They're propping up the whole industry , the people who buy the new one every year , and then the person they're all aspiring to be , rory , is like man . I would actually maybe be leading this tournament if I had the old clubs . Why don't I pay someone a bunch of money to go get my old ones ? Taylormate's , like this whole house of cards , has fallen apart because everyone's going to go . Okay , problem solved .

Kevin 3:22

Right , I get to save a bunch of money this year . I don't have to buy new stuff .

Jordan 3:25

Yeah , this is bad . It is bad . I don't know if there is a way around it other than to just wait for the news cycle . Like everyone's , memories are so short nowadays . You know what I mean .

Kevin 3:35

Yeah , that's true . Story broke like two days ago .

Jordan 3:41

So it's pretty much already on , and then , like five months ago , you're like hey , you remember that . It's like oh yeah , I forgot about that .

Alban 3:47

I thought about creating a Twitter profile that all I did was every day I would go on once a day and see , like what's the biggest story today ?

Jordan 3:56

Like in history or Like just what's the biggest story right now .

Alban 3:58

No like the scandal of the day . What's the scandal of the day ? And I tweet the scandal of the day is X , the story of the day is X , right , and I have it published one year later and it just says one year ago we were all worked up about this .

Kevin 4:14

Oh yeah , what's today's we're recording on Tuesday , March 25th . Today's story of the day is that a bunch of people from the Trump administration had a signal chat going and they accidentally invited a reporter into their private chat .

Alban 4:28

I saw that . Well , they're planning a war . They're planning a war .

Kevin 4:34

That's crazy , yeah , and you're right . Like three days from now , no one will be talking about this .

Jordan 4:38

Nope , there's going to be something else . It's crazy .

Alban 4:40

This is one of the few political stories that broke through for me . I was like I can't go anywhere without all these jokes and I'm like what's happening ? And then I go read the story and I'm like how is this true ?

Jordan 4:52

I immediately thought back to . I know everyone has been in this situation where you do something , you mess up publicly at your job or you publish something you shouldn't have , and then you get that like flood of heat up into your face and I was thinking the guy who added that reporter to the group chat . I can't even imagine like the pit in your stomach you would feel , it's so cringy though .

Alban 5:16

Kevin and I have a friend who was at a company where I guess some people were getting laid off and he was like hey , if everyone is here , the next person to get laid off is probably Jim or something . I don't remember the name he's like , but it's going to be Jim . And so he messages like yeah , jim's probably going to be the next one to be laid off . And he means to message like one person and he messaged Jim .

Kevin 5:41

I think , if it's the story I'm thinking about , yeah , he actually said this person did something and then he said that's why I think this should be the next person who gets laid off .

Alban 5:50

Oh my gosh but he sent it to that person and they sit face to face on desks . So Jim goes . What the hell ? He gets the text . He's like yeah . So I immediately just had to own it and go hey , jamie , you want to go have a conversation ?

Jordan 6:07

He's like sorry , I thought it was really rude of me .

Alban 6:09

I didn't mean to send it to you .

Jordan 6:11

That's just one of those times you wish like the earth would just open up and swallow you down .

Alban 6:15

It would be a little worse , though , if you're like . This is why we should bomb Jim's house .

Jordan 6:19

That's true .

Kevin 6:20

Oh my gosh , it should be a sound off question . We should hear Everyone's got these stories .

Jordan 6:24

Oh yeah .

Alban 6:25

It hurts when you do it . I feel like I've avoided these for a long time . I feel like I have a little bit compulsive about it and I want to check , but when you get them you feel so dumb .

Kevin 6:34

Yeah .

Alban 6:34

Here we go .

Podcast Movement Evolutions in Chicago

Jordan 6:41

Welcome back to Buzzcast , a podcast about all things . Podcasting from the people at Buzzsprout . Next week is Podcast Movement Evolutions . This year it's in Chicago and if any of our listeners are attending , can they expect to see anyone from Buzzsprout there ?

Alban 6:54

They can see me , and that's it .

Jordan 6:57

That's it .

Alban 6:57

That's enough . That's enough . I'm sure there'll be a bunch of Buzzsprout customers and lots of friends , but yeah , I'll be the only one who flies up from the Buzzsprout team .

Jordan 7:05

Yeah , what is your experience been with evolutions versus the regular , like podcast movement ?

Alban 7:11

So they launched evolutions . I want to say 2020 was the first one and the idea was this was going to always be in LA and I think it was their chance to like be more connected with Hollywood and like kind of the big media scene and they were going to always have podcast , movement , move around and evolutions would be in LA . And the first year I went was almost the last year I would go , because we went and we were like , yeah , it's very media heavy .

Jordan 7:40

Yeah .

Alban 7:41

It's a lot of industry and it's the Hollywood industry , it's not the indie podcaster scene . So I had a lot of industry and it's the Hollywood industry , it's not the indie podcaster scene . So I had a lot of fun , I enjoyed LA , I liked everyone there , but it didn't seem like something worth going back to . And then I went again , maybe last year , and I was like you know , this feels way different now as the big media money has kind of left evolutions . It seems like they've kind of moved it a bit more towards . It's just a second event we do . It's a little bit smaller , it's at a different time of the year and it's going to be in a different city . So they both are moving around . So this year it's in Chicago and you can go up there and learn about podcasting and it's much more similar to podcast movement as a whole .

Jordan 8:22

Yeah , I think the only evolutions I have been to was when they had it in Las Vegas , because it's very close to where I live , and I think I went to a bad one because everyone was very polarized by Las Vegas . Some people were like , yes , I'm so glad it's there , and then there was another half of the podcasting population that was like I hate Vegas , I'm not going to this one , and so it really wound up being like a lot smaller than I was expecting and it was pretty much just the industry leaders , which was actually kind of nice because I got to know them , but there wasn't as many people as I was hoping . So hopefully Chicago will be a little bit better , though I do think it's going to be windy and cold when you're there . I don't know .

Alban 8:58

I mean I'll be inside most of it and I'll be talking to people about their podcasts and telling them about Buzzsprout .

Alban 9:04

But if you come or if you're a Buzzcast listener and you're planning to go write in to or maybe let's , I'll put something in the show notes . Maybe we can collect email addresses and try to do a bit of a meetup . Maybe we all meet up at a bar for a drink and Buzzsprout can sponsor . This is on the fly marketing right now , not some huge event , but maybe for the Buzzcast listeners who happen to be in Chicago , maybe we could all meet up and have a drink and take a photo and we'll talk about it on a future episode .

Jordan 9:33

Awesome . I think it's starting to become the tradition that James Cridland has his pod news report card . He gets up on stage and he goes through it and , if you don't know , the pod News report card is something that he runs every single year and people basically grade podcast listening apps and the podcasting industry and stuff like that from a podcaster's perspective .

Alban 9:55

The report card is nice because it collects all of this feedback . Some of the feedback is about listeners , some of it's from industry insiders . You get podcast creators , you get a lot of people and it's from industry insiders . You get podcast creators , you get a lot of people , and it's all at least presented to the teams . So I remember the first year Apple Podcasts might have been the only major app to want all the feedback and then , once James started getting on stage and saying Apple Podcasts and I met , then Spotify started meeting with him and then I think the YouTube team met with him .

Alban 10:25

It's just becoming a Not that they're going to implement all the feedback , or we don't know exactly how seriously they take it , but it's really good to hear that there's at least an avenue where the creators of the largest podcasting apps are hearing hey , here's what people seem to like , here's what people don't like about your app , and they get a grade and they're incentivized to improve the apps and be responsive . So it's a good thing . I think I wouldn't have put so much time into it as James did , but it does seem to be paying off .

Netflix Eyeing Video Podcasts

Jordan 10:54

Yeah . And then another thing that I noticed when I was looking at the schedule was that Netflix is sponsoring like a coffee hour every morning at the event . Ooh yeah , and I was like why is Netflix doing that ? It's kind of weird . And then I remembered like , oh , they do have a handful of podcasts . But I also noticed in the news that they're thinking about bringing creator content to the Netflix platform .

Alban 11:17

Yeah , I saw this article that you shared . So Netflix is looking at video podcasts and they're seeing there's a lot of very popular kind of video interview shows where they show the mic . So they call it a podcast and they're on YouTube and they're thinking , hey , you know how easy it is to create that content , extremely cheap , and if people really like it , maybe Netflix should buy it and we could throw it onto the platform .

Kevin 11:42

Does Netflix do that ? Currently I don't watch a lot of Netflix , so , but you guys have a couple of shows that you watch on Netflix , right , and Jordan , I know you used to like reality TV , still do .

Jordan 11:52

I still do , yeah , I still do .

Kevin 11:59

So I do remember from years ago they started doing after Survivor . They would do like a post show after the Survivor episode airs and they'd have the people who were on that episode and like the person who got kicked out and they would kind of like debrief the show . Does Netflix do any of that for their shows .

Jordan 12:11

I noticed that the companion podcasts are more from CBS or Apple TV has been coming out with a few like Severance companion podcasts . I know HBO has a bunch of those , but are those video shows or audio ? They're audio actually which is interesting .

Kevin 12:26

And I would think Netflix would do some video ones .

Alban 12:28

Well , so there have been a few Netflix shows where they went and poached a creator from YouTube . Somebody was independent . There was the comedian Colleen Ballinger or something and she had like comedy on YouTube and then she went and created a Netflix show . Cocoa Melon was really really big on YouTube and then she went and created a Netflix show . Cocoa Melon was really really big on YouTube and then it was bought and so they moved it to Netflix , or at least Netflix licensed the content and there's just a bunch .

Alban 12:54

I think they do it a lot more around areas like kids videos , where they know it's going to be lots of watch time . You get kids hooked on Cocoa Melon on Netflix and it sits there . Your kids are locked in on it forever . You're never letting that subscription lapse . So I know they've done this in the past and now they're like probably looking and going shoot for how much money it costs to create a really great movie . We could have just licensed like five of the biggest podcasts and made them exclusive to Netflix to make a video podcast . I would not be happy about that , for it to all be locked up behind Netflix's paywall . But I kind of see the argument . It's relatively easy to create them . They could probably get the rights for what's cheap compared to video , and there's a segment of the population that's going to go . Man , if I really want to watch Diary of a CEO podcast interviews , then I got to go to Netflix . I'll go to Netflix .

Jordan 13:50

Yeah , I'm not sure if they're making it like platform specific .

Alban 13:53

Well , I'll have to swing by and ask them about it at the coffee happy hour .

Jordan 13:58

Yeah , there you go .

Bulksprout Upload Tool for Buzzsprout

Alban 14:04

I saw this over on X a couple of days ago . Jay Owen , who actually is a friend of Tom , who was on the podcast last time with Jordan and I . Jay uses Buzzsprout and he created an app where you can bulk upload episodes to Buzzsprout . So he often gets 14 episodes from one of his clients . He uploads them one at a time to Buzzsprout . You know it's a little bit of a slow process when you're doing 14 at a time . So he hooks up to his Google Drive and clicks all 14 and they upload them all and it names them all and it does all the work for him and it's processed .

Alban 14:36

Oh , that's cool so if this sounds like something that would be helpful for you . If you're often uploading multiple files at once , you can go to bulk sproutcom , bulk B ? U L K sproutcom , and if you're using the Buzzsprout API to create something cool , let us know . I'd love to hear about it so that we can help spread the word for it .

Kevin 14:56

You know , I feel like this is a better name for when Alban and I go to conferences . We usually put our workout routines like when we're going to work out , on the schedule , and I feel like bulk sprout is a better name for our workout times . Oh , that's so good .

Jordan 15:11

What's the one that you go with ? Is it whoop fit ?

Kevin 15:14

We called it buzz fit last time .

Jordan 15:16

Oh , but bulk sprout is better .

Kevin 15:19

I love that's great , kevin . I hope Jay doesn't mind . I'm sure I don't know if you've like trademarked the name yet or not , but maybe we could get some bulk sprout t-shirts like whatever , I love this idea like a single I early muscle shirts . You know , cut the sleeves off . Bulk sprout in the conference gym every morning , just going for it getting swole it's so good .

Jordan 15:39

I have a technical question about this . I love the website looks clean , yeah , but I noticed that they're asking for an API key . Where does someone find that ?

Alban 15:48

So in Buzzsprout you would just log into your account , make sure you're on the podcast that you want to be able to bulk upload to .

Jordan 15:57

Okay .

Alban 15:57

And you just click settings and then click API key and it will give you your title , your API token token and the ID . And this is all just so that when you try to upload something to Buzzsprout , we're putting that episode on the right podcast and we're not allowing just some random person . So it's a really long string . You copy paste it and you're set to go .

Jordan 16:17

Oh , very cool . Okay , so that's honestly the most complicated thing about this bulk uploader . So if you want to use it and you're not technically inclined , I think it's actually very easy .

Kevin 16:29

Yeah , it's great for anybody who does batching , like most podcasters probably aren't uploading 14 episodes at a time , but oftentimes we hear about customers who record two or three or four episodes for the month , for example , and then want to upload all four at once and then their podcast is set all month and so instead of doing one at a time , this would help you just drag and drop all four and I think , like the titles and show notes and stuff are sort of templatized , like you can kind of use little tokens to say like insert show title here and then do this and increment the show number by this many . It's a pretty nice little tool .

Keith Morrison's Storytelling Techniques

Jordan 17:05

Okay , so here's something kind of fun that I wanted to talk about . One of the members of our podcaster community group shared a YouTube video from NBCU Academy , which I didn't know is a thing , and I really love that these journalism and audio companies create resources for creators to like learn journalism and audio storytelling techniques and stuff like that , and so I've already known about Gimlet Academy and there's the NPR training resources page , and so , yeah , I was surprised that NBC also has a whole learning resource too . Anyway , this video is about Keith Morrison , who you might know from Dateline . I think everyone knows this velvety rich voice of Keith Morrison . Yeah , it's Keith Morrison , who you might know from Dateline . I think everyone knows this velvety rich voice of Keith Morrison .

Alban 17:47

Is Keith Morrison the like . Cynthia didn't know what was waiting for her at home . It was tragedy , that guy .

Jordan 17:55

Yes .

Alban 17:56

Okay , I know who this guy is .

Jordan 17:58

Yes , On the NBCU Academy website . They say sometimes consider the granddaddy of true crime . Keith Morrison has one of the most famous voices on television and , yeah , so he's famous for his voice . He's famous for how he reads scripts and , you know , uses his instrument for storytelling . So they have a whole blog post .

Kevin 18:19

Are we just going to let it slide that you called his voice , his instrument , jordan ?

Jordan 18:23

It is an instrument .

Kevin 18:25

Leave it in . I love it when the theater kid in Jordan comes out . This is so great , okay .

Jordan 18:36

It is an instrument . It's a finely tuned instrument and he's been perfecting it for 30 years .

Kevin 18:42

I love it . Okay , so if you want to tune your instrument , what's ?

Alban 18:45

different . I mean , he got kind of like a funny intonation and he kind of I don't know why the way he talks somehow like undermines the horror of the show . It's always so strange to me . It's like people are murdered and he somehow is . The way he talks about it makes it feel like it was entertaining .

Kevin 19:03

Well , yeah , they created a Saturday Night Live skit about this .

Jordan 19:07

Yes , yeah , bill Hader .

Kevin 19:08

Bill Hader does an impression where there's someone's describing a terrible crime that happened and he's like and then what happened ? Like he's like way too happy about it . Yeah , that's how .

Alban 19:21

I feel so . I like that there's educational materials , but I don't want to emulate this . I feel like there's he kind of fake empathizes , but I'm like this is a real victim , Like this is the family is when he was killed .

Jordan 19:34

Oh yeah , there are times where he gets a a real victim Like this is the family is when he was killed . Oh yeah , there are times where he gets a little sassy . It's like sassy Keith , and I mean he'll be talking about like if the police find out that someone was lying about something , and he'll be like , oh dear , I love it , it's so good , but I mean , that's the thing that he's famous for is he's reading from a script but it doesn't sound like it , and he's been doing this for like so long . He has to fill out two hours of a Dateline show with his narrative and he has to make it interesting and new and fresh every single time .

Jordan 20:12

And I think that that's something that a lot of podcasters really struggle with is making sure that they are telling their point of view in an engaging way , especially if you're not someone who does public speaking , who you know has a theater background or anything like that . So if you don't have that , I think that you know something like this is actually very helpful , especially from someone who's as animated as Keith Morrison . If you could just take like a smidge of that and just apply it to how you read your script or , you know , talk in your podcast . I think it makes a big difference .

Alban 20:46

Can I propose an alternative ? Don't do a podcast like Dateline . Like the way Dateline does stuff is they're telling this terrible story and somehow they make it a little bit entertaining , which makes me always feel kind of gross . And then they're like coming up next and then they tell you what's about to happen . And then you go into long commercials and then they're like what just happened ? And then they recap what just happened and so it's like if it's two hours , maybe there's like 35 minutes of real content , but they're mostly rehashing the same two facts over and over .

Jordan 21:18

That's true .

Alban 21:18

So I feel like this is the problem podcasters do fall into is we're like I got to stretch this out and make sure I've got a big long podcast episode , but really what we should be doing is trying to like tighten it up and maybe be a little bit more empathetic . I think the true crime genre could do with a bit more empathy and like really considering it's not just like a fictional story . These are real people who lost a loved one and there's something always feels gross to me about it .

Kevin 21:46

It does feel like at least a couple of the true crime podcasts that I've listened to . They do a good job of like interjecting humor and lightening it up , you know , just to play a little bit of devil's advocate against what Alban is saying . The stories are deep and they're heavy and they're dark , and if you covered it from that side and you just tried to empathize to an appropriate amount without adding some levity to it , I do think it wouldn't be a very popular genre . Because , like how much can the human mind bear that ? You know I couldn't listen to another horrible story every single week . There has to be some levity in there . There has to be some , you know , goofy detective who did something wrong , and that's a light part to bring us up a little bit . And then we go back into the heavy .

Jordan 22:28

Yeah .

Kevin 22:28

Now , of course there's there's lines and all this stuff , and some of the best true crime podcasters have figured out how to toe the line . But just to give the other side of the formula a little bit , yeah , and I mean you're not wrong , Alban .

Jordan 22:40

There's a little bit of like an ethical dilemma with true crime .

Jordan 22:42

Especially if someone's like a true crime fan , it feels a little weird because you're not a fan of , like you know , people getting hurt or stolen from or anything like that .

Jordan 22:50

You're just a fan of learning about the stories , and so it does kind of align between entertainment and education , and when it gets more into the entertainment side it's a little yucky . But the points you brought up weren't necessarily what you can learn from this article . It's more of a resource about how to effectively tell a story , not so much the actual like production of it . So he goes into like what he does when he gets a script from Dateline , because obviously he's not the one writing the script , so he has to like read through it and reword it the way that he would say things , because sometimes I think a lot of people will write scripts in the way that makes them sound the most intellectual . It's not the way you speak , and so they'll struggle with reading it and it'll sound robotic because it literally is like a robot wrote this script . And then he also gives tips on recording your voice and tips on how to prepare your voice for a recording session , so it's like a five minute YouTube video . I think it's really interesting . I think it's very fun .

Kevin 23:49

Prepare your voice for a recording session . Yeah , I should probably listen to that . Never done it , always do everything wrong . I'm sure Probably doesn't mention Jocko Go .

Infinite Dial: Podcasts Go Mainstream

Jordan 24:02

Let's talk about the Infinite Dial Report from Edison Research . This is an annual report that they've been doing since , I think , 2008 about audio trends in the United States . It's always really interesting with things that they find , and this year was actually exceptional because , according to James Curland , podcasting is now officially mainstream , and his reasoning for this is that there's more podcast listeners than there are not podcast listeners in the US . So that's pretty cool . I think that's my biggest takeaway from this one .

Alban 24:33

So 55% of Americans over the age of 12 are now a monthly podcast consumer .

Kevin 24:39

Yeah .

Alban 24:39

That includes all of my family , who are non-consenting podcast listeners . We're driving the car and I put one on and they're like you know what this is better than your music , so we're fine .

Jordan 24:52

I've actually like felt this shift in real life because I remember back when I started my podcast , I would tell like family or friends about it and they more often than not had no idea what I was talking about . And then I went out to dinner with some like old family friends and they were talking about how much they love podcasts and they're like super into all these different ones and oh , what ones do you have ? And I thought that was really cool , because these are all people that are in like their 60s and 70s and so I feel like I can actually feel this shift into podcasting being more mainstream , more widely accepted .

Alban 25:25

Yeah , I'm starting to get way more people that recommend podcasts . To me One of the tough things that's hard is people will recommend like a two and a half hour show and they're like , wow , this is really good and I'm like that's a big commitment off of that was really good . So we need a little more info , but you do get more recommendations . 73% of people or of Americans have consumed a podcast , and when they say consumed , it's because they're including video and audio .

Alban 25:53

I did notice James made this point in the video . I think he's made this point actually in pod news as well that YouTube's marking a lot of things as podcasts right now and the definition of what counts as a podcast is I think it's just when somebody creates a playlist in YouTube and they say this playlist is a podcast , that all counts as quote unquote podcast material , and somebody remarked on it . It's really just an interview where the mics are showing , and that's what people seem to say as a podcast . If two people are talking or more and they have mics , that's on camera . They kind of just call that a podcast . Now , we would not consider that a podcast , but at least when Edison's talking about it they're including anytime someone says yeah , it was a podcast because I saw an interview .

Jordan 26:41

Yeah , yeah , and I heard that YouTube is like marking stuff that's not a podcast as a podcast . So if you go to the podcast page , there's a lot of stuff on there that's clearly not a podcast , like it doesn't have the microphones and that kind of stuff on there .

Alban 26:54

that's clearly not a podcast , like it doesn't have the microphones and that kind of stuff . Well , I think that's people designating this is a podcast themselves and they pick that by . They throw a bunch of stuff in a playlist and they say this is a podcast and then it shows up on that page . Kevin is intensely shaking his head . No , what did I get wrong there ?

Kevin 27:10

No , just I'm agreeing with Jordan's point is that the more James looks into this he's talking to people or he has some insight into this is not marked as a podcast like in YouTube as far as he can tell , and it's still showing up on those podcast labeled pages and so he's saying it's not what YouTube is saying . Like , how they figure out what is a podcast and what is not a podcast is not necessarily aligning 100% with what he's seeing . Interesting is not necessarily aligning 100% with what he's seeing . But , like I think this is worth talking about as somebody who works in podcasting , two other people who work in podcasting , do you know who never asks what is a podcast ? Now you say who , who , who .

Jordan 27:47

Kevin .

Kevin 27:47

People who don't work in podcasting . I never hear people who don't work in podcasting say what is a podcast . I think everybody kind of knows generally what a podcast is . I do think that a lot of people think , oh , it's there , you can just listen to a podcast , or some podcasts have video or whatever . But I generally know what a podcast is . It's something that I probably like . I get it on the internet , I can get it on my phone . It's one or more people talking and having a conversation and sometimes they have a video component to it and sometimes they don't . I don't think anybody thinks about it except for people who are in the industry People who are in the industry for some reason . It's very important for us to have a strict , firm definition of what a podcast is and isn't . But I don't think the rest of the world , which is pretty much the whole world , cares at all and I don't think there's a big question around it either .

Alban 28:36

I'm with you . But when we're looking at this infinite dial we're like , oh cool . The number of people who say they've consumed a podcast is at an all-time high . It's mainstream now . It's important to note eight years ago nobody would have said they were consuming podcasts on YouTube , but now they're all saying 51% are saying I'm watching podcasts on YouTube . Well , that is important because that's probably a big reason why this number is inflating . I don't know if the number is inflating because people are starting to listen in a third-party podcasting app in their car . They might be but the number that is going up is the overall I consume podcast number .

Kevin 29:18

Yeah , but I just think it's . I think it's a good thing . Like I don't think it matters if video podcasts are getting like the listenership on the on the video side is growing faster than the audio side , or the audio side is growing faster than the video , so I don't think it really matters . What I think matters is that podcasting is becoming mainstream . More people are getting familiar with that term and making it a part of their life .

Kevin 29:41

And so when somebody says , oh , have you listened to any good podcasts lately ? And then I say , yeah , here's a show that you might like , and they say , tell me about it , I tell them they say , oh , cool , where do I find that ? Is that on YouTube ? And I might say , no , I don't find on YouTube , I got it on Apple podcast or I got it on Spotify or whatever . I think most people are kind of like that's fine . The people who I encounter anyway , they're like I have some sort of podcast player , like if I have an iPhone , I have Apple podcast or Spotify , and then most people have YouTube and so it's something you watched on youtube .

Kevin 30:14

Then you might say it's a podcast , but then you were just going to tell the person oh , go get it , you can find on youtube they do split up the listen to and watched a podcast in this one .

Jordan 30:24

I think this is the first year that they've done it , where they made a definitive split , just because of how much , you know , platforms like spotify and YouTube are pushing video podcasting . They're saying that 70% of the US population has ever listened to a podcast , and then the consumed a podcast is like 73 . So it's only three points more where the only thing that they've ever done is watched a podcast , right , and so I think that there's still just a vast majority that are sitting in the audio consumption . I don't really see the watching version of it taking over the listening .

Alban 31:04

Yeah , I'm with you . There's a few other things I kind of found out here that were interesting . Older listeners , 55 plus , are the fastest growing group . We've got lots of people listening to all sorts of online audio . More people are using these kind of like Android , auto or car play systems in their car so they can listen to podcasts on the go . And then Infinite Dial has all this other stuff about like social media usage , which is interesting for people who work in marketing , though probably not super interesting to people who listen to this podcast .

Jordan 31:37

Maybe that was one of the things that really stood out to me is that the car audio listening podcasts come in third after online radio and the AM FM .

Kevin 31:48

Yeah , I think that's super encouraging because that's only going to like shift more towards podcasting , right ?

Jordan 31:54

Exactly , especially with all of these digital audio interfaces in the cars . None of my vehicles have these . My cars are way too old to have anything like this . You know , I'm like super close to still rocking the cassette tape that has like the wire coming out of it . But one of the things that was also a little bit different this year in the infinite dial is because of the potential TikTok ban in America . They did have a portion of the report dedicated to like what platform you will go to if they do ban TikTok , if it goes away . So everyone was saying , like if TikTok goes away , we're overwhelmingly going to go to YouTube and Instagram .

Alban 32:37

I just feel like I mean good data point for the people who really need that data point but , like the most obvious result ever , If the app I use is banned , I'm going to go to its immediate competitor . That makes sense . If they ban Gate gas station , I'm probably going to go to a different gas station . You got me 80% of people plan to continue using social media at an unhealthy level . Yeah , I believe it .

Jordan 33:04

I think the thing that was like more surprising to me was how many more people are going to go to like meta based social media instead of YouTube , because YouTube just seems huge . They're talking about how it's like number one for podcast discovery or whatever , and it's actually still pretty low , even if you take TikTok out of the equation , compared to like Instagram . So I think looking at that , you can say you know what ? Maybe I'll focus a little bit more on Instagram and YouTube or just this , instead of LinkedIn and Pinterest and all these other things . So if you want to look at the Infinite Dial , they have the replay available on YouTube . I'll link to that in the show notes along with the slides so you can see the rest of it .

Sound-Off!

Jordan 33:47

All right , let's get into SoundOff . First up we have a message from Dee Sparkling . Life Coach D says Miss Kevin , but it was great listening to Tom . Such an informative episode . Kudos to Tom for accomplishing 20 days sugar-free . That's quite an accomplishment . Loved all the challenge suggestions . Thanks , d .

Kevin 34:03

Yeah , we need to circle back to that , because I listened to the episode . Tom did do a great job I agree with D there and she challenged us to do what Seven days .

Jordan 34:13

Yes , sugar-free yes .

Kevin 34:15

I think that's worth taking on .

Jordan 34:16

Are you going to do that one ?

Kevin 34:17

I heard a couple of them and I was like , no , that's not happening . But the seven-day sugar-free it sounds just like there's only upside . It's going to be hard , but there's only upside . I think we should try it . Okay , From right now .

Alban 34:29

From right now .

Kevin 34:30

Yeah , oh , I wasn't ready for that .

Alban 34:31

Why do you need a plan not eating sugar ? Do you have like a chocolate bar sitting in ?

Kevin 34:35

your desk . I got to do like a binge . I got to go get like a cake and just go at it until I feel sick . So then I can make it for a whole week .

Alban 34:43

Everybody can't see this , but Kevin's got a Snickers like right about in his mouth .

Jordan 34:52

He's like , let me finish first .

Alban 34:53

He's been hiding it in his shirt sleeve , thinking we can't see it when he takes a bite .

Kevin 34:58

All right , this is happening seven days from right now , so the next a week from now , at 4 30 , I will uh fine , no sugar , you got it all right . Parameters real quick natural sugars . Can I have an apple ?

Alban 35:11

yeah , no added sugar . That's the problem . Oh , like refined sugar , yeah , you can't . You can't eat candy , you can't have a cake , you can't drink a Coke , but you can have . You could have a apple , you can have berries . I think you should also avoid the artificial sugars too .

Kevin 35:26

Oh , artificial sweeteners , you mean , yeah , no .

Alban 35:31

Coke zeros or any of that stuff . Yeah , and that stuff I don't think is good for your like stomach anyway . So your microbiome Got it .

Jordan 35:38

Do you like a monk fruit or like a stevia leaf thing ?

Kevin 35:42

Sound like it . Honey , can you do honey ?

Alban 35:44

I think you can't Honey , I think is okay .

Kevin 35:46

Natural local honey also helps with allergies .

Alban 35:48

According to the lady who sells the natural local honey to us . She just buys the tubes and puts them in her own containers .

Kevin 35:57

Jordan are you in ? Are you in with us ? You know , I heard you say last week that you've already got some other life challenges going on , and you didn't .

Jordan 36:03

I was going to say . I'm almost a month into my dry March and it's actually been very easy , so maybe I'll try no sugar with you guys , yep . Let's go .

Alban 36:14

You're going to have to give us a report at the end of dry March .

Kevin 36:17

Okay , One more clarifying question Can you have like carbohydrates that turn into sugar immediately after consumption ? So alcohol . I wasn't actually asking about alcohol . I was talking about like spaghetti or bread right Like pastas breads .

Alban 36:30

Is that a no go ? I think you're allowed to in the no sugar challenge . My feeling about the no sugar challenge is added sugars are a big source of calories and the American diet it's how we get . So this eliminates a lot of processed foods and we're trying to like , ramp up our sensitivity to this taste of sugar so that a little bit of like berries are whoa , that's really sweet . Not like berries . Oh , they probably need like sugar on top and be next to a cake for me to eat them .

Kevin 36:59

All right , let's do it . Hands in one , two , three , no sugar .

Jordan 37:02

No sugar Bulk sprout .

Kevin 37:04

Am I allowed to have like a glass of wine , I guess . So it's a fruit right , just grapes , all right .

Jordan 37:09

You're much healthier .

Kevin 37:25

I guess All right If you listen to the show . Please support us by also having no sugar for a week , and then we're all going to come back Exceptionally grumpy .

Alban 37:30

Tell us , how are you doing ? Second sound off was Matt from Girl Dad Nation . He said I was listening to the newest episode with Tom about stats . The guy that downloads the podcast to burn to a CD is awesome . That was my story about the guy in Africa who's burning his podcast to a CD . And Matt said he still uses his iPod Classic . And then he sent a picture of him flying in Southwest Airlines with an old iPod Classic plugged in and if you zoom in you can see he's listening to his own podcast in the photo . Awesome , I love the iPod Classic .

Jordan 38:04

I told him he needs to sell that thing on eBay . It's like vintage .

Kevin 38:08

I have a very old iPod Nano that I break out once in a while , but the syncing has become so difficult that I usually give up . I use it for a couple days and then I'm like I can't keep plugging this in I forget is nano , the clippy one I had the very , very small one that is just . The whole thing is a clip , and so it was like for running .

Kevin 38:26

You could like clip it on your shirt , the whole thing . It had a screen on it like it still works , but I don't even know how to sync it anymore . Anonymous wrote in and said hi , I have my podcast with you and , very ironically , instead of listening to the Buzzsprout informational one , buzzsprout Weekly , I would be thrilled if you'd include the transcript in the emails you send . I definitely read it , but I won't listen . Many others must feel the same way I do , just offering feedback in case that would be an option . Thank you , same way I do , just offering feedback , in case that would be an option . Thank you .

Alban 38:54

So I saw this when it came in and I've been racking my brain trying to understand it . So maybe a clarifying point . We write a weekly newsletter and we send it out with all the stuff we think you should know from the week . And at some point Megan and I were talking we're like what if we just read the email and we record that as a podcast so if somebody wanted to listen to it they could . That podcast is called Buzzsprout Weekly . The transcript is the email . Like the email is that's the source , that's the first thing .

Kevin 39:27

Oh , I totally understand this , Alban . I can clarify this for you . I think the person found the podcast somehow . Maybe they went into their podcast app and they searched for Buzzsprout or something and they found Buzzsprout Weekly and so they subscribed to it and they started listening , but they never have signed up for the newsletter . Or they unsubscribed at some point or something , or they're not getting the newsletter but they've subscribed to the podcast and they might not know the newsletter exists .

Jordan 39:50

But they said I would be thrilled if you'd include the transcript in the emails you send .

Kevin 39:57

So they know we send emails . We send some emails , but I don't think they know that we send this .

Alban 39:59

Buzzsprout Weekly email . Yeah Well , maybe we'll need some clarification . The email is the transcript , though , so maybe we could put a link to that in the .

Kevin 40:06

I think you should make sure in the show notes for every Buzzsprout Weekly podcast episode a link to sign up if you'd rather read this as a newsletter . Ooh , I think that's good feedback , not a bad idea .

Jordan 40:17

That is good feedback . Cool United Arab Emirates listener hail Ben and the rest of the team at Buzzcast . First off , congrats on finishing your 15K miles . Such a funny coincidence , I was listening to the episode while doing my half marathon .

Alban 40:30

Really hey , there we go .

Jordan 40:38

I also wanted to say something to Tom regarding your skepticism about using a web player to listen to podcasts . I actually listen using Apple web player while working on my PC , since I prefer to keep my phone away from distractions . Yeah , also never knew Alban was a CrossFitter . Alban , did we say , you're a CrossFitter ?

Alban 40:47

No , I'm definitely not a CrossFitter . I've done CrossFit like three times and been injured from CrossFit three times . Oh no , it's a hundred percent injury rate for me . So I don't do CrossFit . But I will attempt it with the listener who is in Chicago , so they said they were into CrossFit . I'll go work out .

Kevin 41:07

Yeah , I do one CrossFit workout a year . Can you guess which one ? It's gotta be ? Murph , right . Yeah , it's the Murph . It'sph .

Alban 41:13

it's Memorial Day right yeah , it's , people do it for Memorial Day . Uh , for a veteran who passed it's something Murph ? Uh yeah , michael Murphy , who was a US Navy SEAL he would used to run a mile and then he'd do like 100 pull-ups and 200 push-ups and 300 squats , then he'd run a mile and so CrossFitters will wear like a weighted vest and do that workout as fast as they can and it's brutal . It's such an intense workout and it's kind of like this measuring stick for CrossFit people .

Jordan 41:43

Yeah , yeah , ever since they put that CrossFit gym in next door to me , I thought about it because I'm like it's right , there , I could join a CrossFit gym , I could get in like the best shape of my life . And then every morning at 5.30 , I'm sitting there drinking my coffee , watching them run through my back alleyway and I'm like , nah , I don't think I will .

Kevin 42:07

It's a big lifestyle change and I absolutely applaud the people who find it in them to shape their lives in that way . I love working out , but it's never resonated with me in that way .

Alban 42:14

Allison from the Art of Home podcast reached out . You guys have helped me keep podcasting since 2001 . I just celebrated my fourth podcast birthday on March 11th , so thank you for that . That is awesome , Allison . She continues .

Alban 42:28

I really enjoyed today's episode on stats . While I firmly believe that comparison is the thief of joy , sometimes it is helpful to know where you stand in your niche . Here's one way I found to do it on Spotify , which is where most of my listeners are . On the podcast homepage , just below the cover art and star rating , there's a tiny rectangle showing the most recent episodes cover art . Right next to it , the follow button . If you click that little rectangle , it'll play a soundbite from the latest episode and it also shows you how many followers that show has on Spotify . It's not the same as download numbers , of course , but seeing the follower count still gives me a good sense of the reach of other shows and of my own . Yeah , that's really interesting , Allison . I like that . It's a bit buried too , because maybe go and seek it out once a year . We shouldn't obsess over it , but it's nice to know if you want , just like a you know about how much bigger are other shows or how much smaller , are they ? This will give you a little bit of an idea .

Kevin 43:24

Brad Shreve wrote in and said what ? No mention of podcast addict . I tried switching to Pocket Cast and I had to go back . It doesn't have some of the features that the others do , but it is user-friendly and keeps improving . So that's probably my mistake . I am an iPhone user and Podcast Addict is not on iOS , it is Android only . I have used it on Android and I do agree it is a great app , but it's not always top of mind for me . So apologize , brad . That is a great app , but it's not always top of mind for me , so I apologize , brad . That is a great app , thanks for reminding me .

Jordan 43:53

And then we got another message from Fort Washington , Pennsylvania . Gotta know , why is Buzzcast not on Spotify ? Well , actually we have gone over this too many times ad nauseum . That's right , we're going to spare our listeners from another downward spiral . Yeah , rant .

Alban 44:09

Downward spiral .

Jordan 44:10

Yeah , rant , downward spiral . So episode 121 , spotify's new podcast strategy , we go in depth about it . We rant , we rave . You will know fully every reasoning behind us not being listed on Spotify , so I will link to that in the show notes as well .

Alban 44:26

Joe Motz , host of Caffeinated Jiu-Jitsu . The episode on staying motivated for podcasting really hit home . I was re-energized my passion for podcasting and showed me by keeping things simple will make it easier to continue forward . Thank you for helping me keep my passion brewing , Joe . Thank you for the message . That's really cool . That's very encouraging for us too .

Kevin 44:46

I like the pun there . Keep his passion brewing Caffeinated .

Jordan 44:49

Jiu .

Kevin 44:49

Caffeinated jujitsu . Yeah on brand . Good job , joe .

Jordan 44:54

All right , now sound off question from our last episode . We wanted to hear from you what is something about you that we would not know from looking at stats ? So first up we have a message saying I'm a listener from Steamboat Springs , colorado . Thank you for the suggestion to dive into listener engagement numbers through Apple Podcast Connect . While I don't have many listeners , it is still helpful to see what type of content my listeners stick around for and the content where they clearly stop listening . Yes , that is by far the most important one .

Alban 45:21

Somebody else wrote . Buzzcast episodes are some of the 1,809 podcast episodes I've listened to in 2024 in Brisbane , australia , according to Pocket Cast . I'm aiming for 2000 in 2025 . That is so many podcast episodes 2000 in a year . That's like constant listening .

Jordan 45:45

That reminds me of those challenges where people are like I'm going to read 52 books this year . It's like I'm going to listen to 2000 podcasts . That's fun .

Kevin 45:52

Yeah , it makes me think that that is not a one X listener , that is a . That is a finely tuned ear . That is a 1.5 X minimum .

Alban 46:00

They're getting to a point where there aren't enough hours in the day .

Jordan 46:03

Did you see that YouTube is now testing out like four X listening ? I just can't even fathom it .

Kevin 46:11

That's , that's extreme . Next person wrote in and said listening from Orlando Florida . I live alone and I'm not really a TV watcher , so I do usually listen all day to either audio books or podcasts . I have about 70 of them in my playlist . That's a lot .

Jordan 46:25

Sarah Zett . Wish I'd known then podcast , hey Buzzcast . My phone number is from Florida but I actually live in Spring , texas Stats . Won't tell you that I'm the author of over 30 mystery novels that are whodunits , like Agatha Christie or Knives Out . And LOL on the phrase the most fun stat , because I never associate statistics with fun , but I totally agree that the location data makes me smile every time . Thanks , sarah .

Alban 46:50

We got another one from the UAE . From the phone number you'll probably know I'm in the UAE and I used to be a buzzsprouter before I podfaded . Do some personal issues ? I believe Alban might remember me . I might , but I need to know a little bit more about you . There's lots of podcasters at UAE . We've met a handful at conferences , so I'm sure I would . Maybe if I saw your face you told us a little bit more . Yeah , we've got to get you back into podcasting . I'm glad you're still listening to the show .

Kevin 47:21

And Barnabas from Kids Code Podcast wrote in and said I listen from Windsor Vermont and I listen to podcasts and created mine on a slow old Windows PC yeah .

Kevin 47:28

That's something we wouldn't know . We don't have no insight into where you create your podcast , Only like what people listen to them on . Yeah , Okay , so the sound off question for next week . If Jordan didn't cut it from the intro to this episode I hinted to it , but I think we should go with it which is we were talking about kind of some foot in mouth moments . These can happen through email or can happen through email , or it can happen through texts , or maybe somebody overhears a conversation they're not supposed to .

Kevin 47:56

But it doesn't necessarily have to be podcasting related . But it would just be fun to hear from people who listen to the show , Like what is your funny , you know foot in mouth moment where you were maybe mortified or felt a pit in your stomach that you texted somebody something on accident or emailed something accidentally . I'd love to hear it . We just are interested in learning more about people who listen to the show and connecting more with you . So if you have a story that you wouldn't mind sharing with us and having us share it with anyone who listens to this show , please click the link in the show notes and send it our way .

Jordan 48:26

Oh man , I can't wait , all right , Until next time , keep podcasting . Can't wait , all right , until next time , keep podcasting .

Post Show: Eat. Pray. Spite.

Kevin 48:35

Okay , Alban , welcome back from the big trip out west .

Alban 48:38

Thank you , kevin . Glad to be home , glad to be in the humidity again .

Kevin 48:42

Yeah , so just to catch up , jordan , I think you know , but you know Alban told us that for his spring break he was going to fly out to Las Vegas . For his spring break he was going to fly out to Las Vegas , pick up some sort of RV-ish , off-road-ish type vehicle situation with his wife and daughter and some friends of theirs , and then they were going to travel into as many national parks as they could hit on their way over to Denver I think Is Denver where you flew out of .

Alban 49:05

Yeah , we flew out of Denver Yep so long road trip over nine days , and we went to a bunch of national parks and had a honestly a blast yeah .

Kevin 49:14

So I want to hear all about this . Alban Like , here's something that people who listen to the show might not know Jordan , you may not know , but you know cause . Alban and I spend a lot of time together outside of the office as well . We share a lot of interests , and so Alban and I share our locations with each other on our phone .

Alban 49:29

Oh no . I don't know where this is going .

Kevin 49:33

And so I want to say , a couple of times during the week I had loaded up , you know , to find my application to figure out where various kids were at certain times or whatever , and so I'm watching Alban kind of you know , like every time the map would pop up , Alban would like jump another 300 miles Northeast , northeast , Northeast , and he's making his way through some of the coolest places in the United States . I was insanely jealous the whole time . But I want to say Friday night I was curious . My daughter was like trying to replace her phone or something and I was trying to figure out if her location was working . So I loaded up and I noticed that , Alban , it looked like you might have been having the best Western experience that anybody could possibly have . Did I see that ? Was that accurate ? Were you really having the best Western experience ?

Alban 50:20

Yes , we , we we were in a best Western , so you were not supposed to be in a best Western .

Alban 50:25

You're not supposed to be the best Western that's funny that you saw that I've had this dream for most of my life and it was to travel across the country in an RV and mostly live out of the RV , and whenever I was like doing a house project I was sick of . I just have this fantasy of like , you know , you could just live out of an RV , you know , be totally fine , you could just like have a really nice airstream Like who needs this stupid house , Right ?

Kevin 50:52

Just whatever dirt road comes your way , you just pull off onto it and wherever the wind blows you , and then you camp for the night . And you're really roughing it in your RV , right .

Alban 51:02

My wife . She did not share this dream with me , but she was open to letting it like . We're going to try it out for a time . And , oh my gosh , RVs may not be that bad , but they're done . They're done in the Brooke family for sure .

Jordan 51:17

Oh , no , what happened ?

Alban 51:18

It's going to take years to tell you . So this is all true . This is the most abbreviated I can make it . We pick up an RV from Indy Campers . First thing I notice the employees are in the parking lot grilling .

Alban 51:31

They've got to grill out , they're grilling food this is aligning perfectly with how I would envision it so I'm like okay , little strange that most of them are out here grilling , but whatever , like you know , people go eat lunch but it's like 2 30 , so it's a little bit strange but not a big deal . Yeah , go inside . There's like open milk and open oj sitting on a table . That are like clearly old and it says free next to it .

Kevin 51:55

I'm like that's weird .

Alban 51:57

Again , these are like slightly red flags , but nothing's keyed me up and yet I go in . I get kind of a hard sell upgrade the insurance , upgrade to the unlimited miles , do this , do that , and I'm like I'm good , I'm just , I figured it all out , I'm happy with what I've got . Yeah , we go out to the unlimited miles , do this , do that , and I'm like I'm good , I'm just , I figured it all out .

Alban 52:13

I'm happy with what I've got . Yeah , we go out to the car and first thing I look at are the tires . We're driving through snow and I'm telling you , pure bald tire . And so I go yeah , we can't take this vehicle . And they're like why not ? This is the vehicle . And I'm like dude , we can't drive a bald tire . And she goes okay , here's what you can do . Take it now , sign off that it's all good , take it to the tire shop . We'll call up and they'll put on new tires for you . I'm not taking possession of a vehicle with ball tires .

Alban 52:38

And she starts disappearing for like 15 , 20 minutes at a time and eventually comes back and I'm like look , if you want to refund it because you can't get us another vehicle , no problem , I'll go get a rental car right now . Then we get a new vehicle , number two . Vehicle Number two no propane , no water , full gray water tank , probably full sewage tank and not cleaned . And they go this is the vehicle . Now she disappears again . My buddy looks out the window and he goes hey , isn't that the girl helping you walking down the street ? And I assume to go get some of the stuff we paid for and I'm like she'll be back , probably going to storage or something . No , she'd clocked out and was gone , only is going to get worse . It's unbelievable . We finally get it all sorted . One guy jumps in , he helps . When we get there , we're out in the middle of nowhere . Sheets are all stained .

Jordan 53:32

Ew Like not washed , oh no .

Alban 53:34

So I look it up to drive to Walmart the nearest Walmart is like 45 minutes away and it closes in 51 minutes and I go unplug the car . Right now we're going , we load up , we're running as fast as we can down the mountain oh , our license plate lights out . No , running as fast as we can down the mountain oh , our license plate lights out . No chance to stop . Got to get these sheets , get them come back . Oh , the privacy curtains weren't included with the RV .

Alban 53:58

So now I'm hanging sheets to try to get some privacy . We're still going to make it work . No big deal . The fire extinguisher isn't in the vehicle . Your tolerance for no big deal is way way down the road from where I am . I'm solving these problems .

Jordan 54:13

Because you're going to make your dream work .

Alban 54:15

I'm going to make this dream work . No fire extinguisher chips in the windshield . I'm like I can handle these things . We're going to be good , but we're not cooking with propane anymore because stuff's racking up .

Jordan 54:27

Yeah .

Alban 54:28

And we're like we're going to make it . Things are feeling good again , and day three , we lose all water .

Kevin 54:33

Oh gosh .

Alban 54:35

Water just starts pouring out of the bottom of the vehicle , no reason why . We don't know what's going on . And that was the moment I went over the edge . I'm like we can't wash our hands , we can't use the restroom , no , and I start writing in and this company is insane . This is the standard . I start researching and there's thousands of reviews about indie campers online where they just send them out totally busted and then when people say yeah , I guess like I got peer pressured into saying it was good they do and we bring it back . This is what's happened to my friend . They took photos of all the damage . It was all logged . Today they got hit with a $10,000 fine , like charged to their card , for being in an accident . They weren't in an accident , no , and it's the damage that was already there that has been documented . Again , you'd think it was like just a joke .

Jordan 55:32

This sounds like a scam .

Alban 55:33

It is . I really am at a point where I'm like this is intentional . This is not a legal opinion , this is just a personal belief . But if you go research Indie campers online , one thing you'll find are lots of negative reviews . Another thing you'll find is a lot of reviews by Alban Brooke .

Kevin 55:51

I am in full on . How did you not see any of these reviews in all ?

Alban 55:55

the research you did , dude . There's a handful of sites now that look like their reviews are really good , and I'm seeing some of these sites with . I'm realizing now like it seems like Trustpilot might be one of them where they have great reviews . Now it seems like Trustpilot might be one of them . Where they have great reviews , they will pay people to remove the bad reviews . Oh no , so that one's an allegation . I'm not . I don't know that to be true . I've now read that on Reddit . Who knows if that's true , but it's wild .

Alban 56:25

And I'm in full on Larry David spite store mode . Kevin , you're going to start up your own RV rental . I do it . I'm just . I'm writing them every day . They write back and they've now offered me a refund of up to I don't know like $118 for everything Like a totally unusable RV . Oh , brutal . I'm totally leaning into this with like pure joy . I'm like you know , this trip was awesome , with the exception of the Indy Camper , but I think this is the first project that's like unified every part of me . It's got the lawyer part of me , it's got the marketer part of me , it's got the spiteful kind of jerk part of me , it's got all of it and it's all motivated to spread the word about how bad IndyCampers is and , like we've been done with this trip for four days , it's not leaving my mind . I'm like , so locked in . This is the biggest project I've taken on . I'm excited to see where it goes .

Jordan 57:23

Alban , if this was a miniseries podcast about , like , the demise of IndyCamper , I would listen to it Like a man's journey to destroy Indy . Camper . I would listen to it . A man's journey to destroy Indy Camper .

Alban 57:33

I mean this with true seriousness . From what I've read , I am a bit surprised there has not been a class action lawsuit . There is so , so many people who've said hey , I was peer pressured into signing this thing . I was really disorganized . I drove it . It had issues . They wouldn't fix it . I took it . It had issues , they wouldn't fix it . I took it and got it fixed . They wouldn't refund it . And then they charged my card fraudulently . There's enough of those online and I'm like good grief , and they're paying people to remove the bad ones . There's a lot of people out there . It makes me think like there could be some sort of class action out there .

Kevin 58:12

Yeah , I think the reality is is that most people , myself included just I just don't have it in me to fight the bad experiences that hard and I think most people probably don't . Like I would take it back , I would reverse the charges with my credit card , I would leave like one one star review and just be like don't rent from these people , they're terrible .

Alban 58:30

As of right now , I've done one podcast interview . That's this right now . And 11 reviews . 11 reviews , dude , I'm finding everything I find I'm like . Oh , there's the social media posts they put on their website . I'm happy to go into those paid social posts and start writing reviews there . Oh , this is your educational video on how to run the camper . I'm going to tell people don't sign your contract and get out of there if you can . These are all the true story of what happened to me on my trip , and if I'm only getting $117 back , there's multiple thousands of dollars of spite out there to be gained .

Jordan 59:06

Oh yeah .

Kevin 59:06

Yeah , it seems like this is invigorating some level of joy in you to be able to share this story .

Alban 59:13

I don't know why . I'm enjoying it so much . But it's like I think maybe it's this Kevin . For so long I've been on the other side of a company that one person writes in and we feel it and we're like , oh wow , we really didn't do right by somebody . They thought they canceled their podcast , but they didn't . We could have made that a little bit easier . And then we work with them and we refund months of payments .

Alban 59:36

And it wasn't our fault , but we want to do the right thing and I use Amex and they always treat you so well and Delta treats me so well , and there's so many companies and then I ran across one that I believe at this point is actively trying to scam people out of money .

Jordan 59:52

Yeah .

Alban 59:52

And I'm like all this goodness from all these great companies that try so hard . You know , people really should be leaning into making sure these bad reviews get out there and someone's got to take a lot of interest in it , and I don't know why , but it has . It's caught me . So to be continued , I guess I can't wait .

Kevin 1:00:11

So let's end on a positive note . Tell me how wonderful it was when you crashed at that Best Western hotel , Because Best Western probably doesn't get a lot of really great reviews . So here's your opportunity to go to Best Western and say when I felt like I was at rock bottom and things couldn't get any worse in terms of accommodations on this trip , Best Western came through and saved the day with their clean sheets and their cool air conditioning .

Alban 1:00:33

I'll tell you this . We stayed at a Best Western , but the Westin's where my wife who Kevin knows is pretty mellow she walked in and was so happy to be out of the camper . She jumped and squealed and went oh , this is nice , and I've never seen her do that in 10 years of marriage . I'm like you've never done that . When I came home from a work trip and you were , she was so happy to be out of that camper and I was like man , you know , sometimes you can solve a problem with $170 hotel room and I did . And to see that much joy I was like , oh , this is awesome , like I would pay this every time . So Westin , best Western , gravity House , all the hotels we booked on a whim to get out of that thing . Thank you to all you and thank you to Walmart , the only place that will sell you sheets at 11 o'clock at night in the middle of nowhere , thank God for Walmart .