011 - Mickey Brueckner on Movement Literacy & Longevity in the Development of High Level Throwers

Mickey Brueckner is the CEO of The ANNEX Sports Performance Center in Chatham, MJ and has been a key player in developing top amateur talent and professional athletes since 2006.  A former collegiate athlete, Brueckner's own injury led him to focus on enhancing athletic performance and injury prevention, particularly for overhead throwing athletes. With a clientele boasting MLB First Round Draft Picks, a Cy Young Award Winner, Super Bowl and World Series Champions, he has garnered recognition in prestigious publications like MLB Network and Sports Illustrated for his exceptional work with athletes across all levels for over fifteen years.

Here's a quick overview of our show:
✅ Pulling levers in the development of youth athletes
✅ Developing physical literacy in throwing athletes
✅ Consolidating stressors for in season training
✅ Arm Care and longevity for athletes
✅ ..and much, much more

For more information visit Mickey's Instagram at @mickbrueckner or The ANNEX.

Please follow us on instagram @athleticperformancepod for more content and solutions to this podcast.

Transcript

M-2-peakfast: 0:05

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Ryan Patrick: 3:01

Today I have Mickey Brookner on the podcast. And man, we go, we go way back. We got a lot of intersection in our professional lives for, for not having actually met. So we have done we have been both competitors in the rebel performance, silverback challenge. Yeah. You're still part of rebel performance and working with James Serby. I'm still coaching for them a little bit on the side. We were both involved in the unicorn society. You're actually now coach for them. So we've done some, some one on ones to work on stuff, but why don't you start by just giving listeners who maybe don't know about you a little bit more about what you do and your program and bring us up to speed.

Mickey Brueckner: 3:41

Yeah. I'll try to be as. As succinct as possible, but I was a born and raised Jersey kid played three sports as a kid but always focused towards baseball, had the opportunity to play college baseball at a pretty high level and my goals and ambitions were always to play professionally, but unfortunately that was cut short. I had two Tommy John surgeries in college, and that was kind of the, the, the tipping point. For me and started, that was kind of the transition point for me, like kind of focusing less of my energy on baseball and more on training. Training as a high school athlete, like changed my trajectory as an athlete. I was always a very skilled baseball player, but started to, to lack a little bit as I got, in a high school from an athletic standpoint. So I just, I love training. I love development that, you know, next to playing baseball. That was my next biggest passion. So. I studied kinesiology, got my degree from Arizona State. Throughout my rehabilitation process, I worked I did all my PT and then I did all my training at a facility in Arizona that specialized in working with baseball athletes. And it was very unique to anything that was Here in New Jersey. And then, so when I graduated, I worked there for a year and then had the opportunity to move back to New Jersey. And that's when I started my business, the annex in, in the fall of 2006. And my, my goal was always to take the, the model that I had experienced in Arizona and bring it back to New Jersey and really try to create a one stop shop for any athlete really, but my main focus since day one has always really been the overhead throwing athlete. So.

Ryan Patrick: 5:19

It seems like that's the trajectory of almost anybody in this field is where at some level where I failed athlete might happen much earlier than yours, but injury is obviously a big cause how much I'm just curious. How much did this really play into to your development as a coach? Because I find a lot of guys who have. Struggled with injury, even gen pop clients who just, experience injury, they, they always seem to have more knowledge about said injury. And it really starts to kind of open this wormhole of, just discovery and, and more interest in this. So tell me how that kind of fueled your, your professional career.

Mickey Brueckner: 6:00

Yeah. I mean, to be honest, Ryan, like I went through that whole process twice and that was, over two years of my life and. I think living through it every day and going through the transitions from, being injured, to having a surgery, to the acute stages of post op care, to transitioning to later stages, like, I think having that context has really helped me. Provide better insights to the athletes we work with. That's not to say people who haven't gone through it, don't understand it. But I, like I've, I've lived it. And so I think that for a lot of athletes, they feel that and that, that almost that empathy goes a long way. So that they feel seen or heard or like, just having context really is helpful. But I think, I think the biggest thing is like making sure that, Each situation, there's nuance. Each athlete's experience is different and kind of getting the athlete to understand that you can understand that and appreciate that whether it's ACL surgery, shoulder surgery, elbow surgery, it doesn't matter. We've, we've dealt with all of them. And I think just kind of understanding that like, Each athlete in front of you is different, understanding their backstory from a mental, physical, physiological standpoint and taking all that into consideration and using that knowledge and applying it to their post op care and ultimately using that to get them back on the field. Really is important because I, yes, the physical aspect is so important, right? Like you want to make sure physically you're ready for the stresses to get back on the field. From my own experience, I became like a, I don't want to say a hypochondriac, but like I was constantly concerned, especially after my second surgery, like always re injuring. And so I think that was one of the big things that. Did not allow me to get back to like my previous form is like I was constantly worried Constantly babying things and I think creating the context and conversations with the athletes like look You're you're not as fragile as you think like this is part of the process where we need to push to be successful to get back on the field Otherwise, the game's going to pass you by and I think that was, that's ultimately what happened to me. So I think that's, that's important part of the process is coaching them and mentoring them along the way throughout that whole transition. So,

Ryan Patrick: 8:25

yeah, I mean, you, you approached us with a lot of grace, right? Because I see a lot of young kids and we've had some athletes who have suffered career ending injuries and it's super. Unfortunate and sad. And I know there's there's a maturation process. There's a growth that has to happen because of this because so much of our high level athletes have their identity wrapped up in. I'm a, baseball player. I'm a volleyball player. I'm whatever sport that they play. Yeah. So I appreciate that. And I'd love, I'd love to tap into a little bit more of your career. You're kind of grow through that, but also like, I would just want to highlight something that I think is can be very present in this industry as a whole. And certainly with injury, there's kinesiophobia, right? The fear of using. The injury again, or if it's an ACL, because we have a lot of those, the fear of cutting off of that leg again, and you're thinking about it while you're trying to actually play sport, that just doesn't work. But yeah, we, we can sometimes get so nuanced that people are afraid to do basic things because they don't have enough range of motion or, something is not there. And so I would, I would just like to kind of bring all these ideas together, but please start by just. Telling more about like your, like the struggles maybe you went through kind of transitioning out of this realization that my career is over.

Mickey Brueckner: 9:58

Yeah. Well, I think in some ways, like my personality helped me do that. I'm a very like all in type of personality, like. No matter what I do, like I'm, like I was saying, like how you do one thing is how you do everything. So for me, it was like, when I realized after the second surgery that maybe playing wasn't a possibility, like I kind of diverted, like I said earlier, I diverted a lot of the attention that used to be on developing as a baseball player towards now I want to learn to be a coach because now it's not like there's, there's a high likelihood that. I'm not going to be playing after college. So for me, having that mentality was helpful. I think if, if I didn't have the second surgery, I probably wouldn't have been able to turn the page as like, if this had happened after the first surgery and it was still kind of like stringing along, I think it would have been a little bit different, but I think going through those struggles has equipped me in my life. Now is like an entrepreneur, right? Like you run a business, it's. There's ups and downs every day. There's always new challenges. Like there's so many times where you just want to like, yeah, I just want to quit. Like it's, it, is it really worth it? All, all, but you know, at the end of the day, like that resilience and that ability to kind of push through those challenges started during that period. So for me, it was like, look, I'm not playing baseball anymore. I know I can be successful at this. I, I know I understand it. So I just. Since I literally turned the page and like, I'm going to become the best coach I can. I want to treat athletes with grace. I want to treat athletes with, with, as much empathy and care that I can give them. And I think that's the ability to kind of really just shift gears and refocus. My energy was really helpful for me where, I, I've seen a lot of athletes who. Maybe because they didn't have the whatever, whatever situation or like a, an opportunity to shift gears. Like they just struggle, they just spin their wheels. They can't, they can't move on and they spend several years trying to make it. And to me, it was like, look, I want to, I want to get on with living my life. Yes. It sucks that I can't play baseball. That's all I ever wanted to do. And like you said, that was my identity for so many years. But I'm like, it's time for me to move on. And in order for me to really be successful in this next, next chapter of my life. I have to go all in and I have to, and I remember I, you know, my girlfriend now wife I'm like, I have to make this change. So I'm, I'm moving back to New Jersey. I have to do it because if I don't, if I don't pick myself up and remove myself from this situation, I probably would have kept trying to play. And I think maybe that was maturity. Maybe that was just, you know, it was just a great decision on my part. And looking back, I'm really happy I did it. Because like. All of that, all of those challenges throughout that whole process prepared me to what I do now today. Not only with my athletes, but like in my role as a, as a business owner, as a, as a leader, as a father, like I'm much stronger and much more resilient because of that whole experience. So.

Ryan Patrick: 13:11

How old were you for your first and second injury?

Mickey Brueckner: 13:15

I was my first elbow surgery. I was, Oh man. I think I was 20, I was 20 years old. And then my second one was 21. So it was, it was pretty much a year, May of two 2003 and then May of 2004 or we're both surgery. So

Ryan Patrick: 13:33

yeah, I don't want to dismiss what a self aware decision that is for a 21 year old because I remember being 21 and In college, and I was nowhere on that level. So, I mean, it's pretty consistent with, with who I know you to be today, which is probably 1 of the reasons I love you and get along so well with you, man. So that's a, yeah, very impressive. And in your mind, like, leading up to that 2nd injury, what do you, what do you feel like went wrong with the 1st recovery that kind of, I don't want to say caused, but, you know, Yeah.

Mickey Brueckner: 14:13

I, I'm not a person who like shifts and, and cast blame on people, obviously it's always the way I look at life is like, what, what could I have done better? But I think if I were to attribute it to one thing I, I essentially, I, I re re injured my elbow in the throwing process. Like everything else seemed to be going well, but, Like I thought the surgeon who I use was great. I have no bad things like I thought he was awesome. And I think it was just that. I had been, my arm had felt really good for the first time in almost a year. So I just threw based on how I felt and nobody was kind of monitoring my intensity level of my throwing. Like now there's, they have really good objective ways of managing intensity throughout the throwing process. Like, using radar guns to make sure you're at a certain percentage of your max velocity. And, and there's a lot of really good ways of, of managing intensity. Tempering that with athletes because, athletes wanna throw hard. And so I remember I was about three months into my throwing program and at the end of one of the weeks of, of throwing I, I felt a tweak in my elbow. Didn't say anything and, came back the next week and definitely had a lot of pain and discomfort similar to what the first, the first time I tore it felt like. And then that was in November of 2003, and then through the course of the next couple months, trying a lot of different things. Trying new physical therapists, trying, speaking with my surgeon, we essentially went in to go like an exploratory surgery the second time around. And I basically said like, look, you go in, whatever it is, just fix it. And I remember waking up with both of my arms in casts knowing that they had to redo it. And so that was that was a very tough realization. But again, it, it's the path that brought me to where I am today. I think. I'm very fortunate that I, regardless if I don't, I'm not playing baseball, but I'm still very close to the game. I do what I love. I, I, I'm still continually helping young athletes. Like, I think at the end of the day, like I'm very proud of what we've accomplished with our facility and, and, what we're going to continue to do But that's always been since day one, like I want to help athletes avoid the pitfalls that happen to me, right? And if I can change the directory of a couple careers, then, then I've, then I've done my job and I've, I've, I feel fulfilled. So,

Ryan Patrick: 16:34

yeah, I definitely want to leverage this experience that you've had, because speaking of pitfalls, one of the things that I see a lot of these young guys, and I'm sure you get this a lot, having worked with so many baseball guys. Yeah. It's the velocity track where they're chasing as much velocity as early as they can. And throwing is probably the most dynamic, fastest motion in sports. When we really look at the degrees of rotation that are happening, at the shoulder joint. How do you unpack this when you've got an athlete? Because there's this, Process of one, you don't want them to peak too early. You want them to have longevity, but there's also this reality that you've got to deliver results. So where do you start with, say, a middle school kid or high school kid who's coming in and they're not. Yeah.

Mickey Brueckner: 17:34

Well, to me, honestly, like if you have really young kids who throw super hard at a young age, to me, unless they're super well physically developed, to me, that's a bit of a red flag. Cause oftentimes most, most challenges that happen in terms of injuries and young throwers is the stress that they're putting on their arm as they increase their velocity. To me, it. It. Yeah. Their physiology, their connective tissue can't manage that stress. And so that's why for me, it's like, I want to slow cook that as long as possible. I want to make sure that, through like, if you're doing velocity programs through throwing, like sometimes like, yeah, you might see increased velocity and your metrics might go up, but often there's an over taxation and there's going to be a response eventually, right? So I'd rather from a physical standpoint. Improve an athlete's movement competency, right. A move, improve their ability to move, improve their, like, proximal stability and just overall like sequence and their, and all that stuff. I think at the end of the day, to me, it's always, it's going to come back to quality of movement, right. And I think that's where cheating the system just to gain velocity, but not improving the mechanisms and the movement and the patterns and the physiology behind it, you're, you're. You're kind of playing with a loaded gun. So I think that's the biggest thing I want athletes to understand is like there's, there's necessary steps to see these improvements made like a big jump in velocity is often, often happens and, and is, is followed by some type of soft tissue injury or injury that like, hopefully it's not like a, a career changing trajectory, but often it is. And so I think that's where. I think it's like maybe at a young age, let's, let's try all of the more proactive, holistic ways of improving velocity, right? Like if you're a freshman, sophomore, those guys like, Hey, let's just move better. Let's get stronger. Let's focus on sleep, nutrition, daily, like lifestyle habits. A lot of times, like you focus on those big rocks, like the stuff, things will just fall into place. If you're at the end of your high school career or maybe even your college career, right? Like, and you're getting overlooked because you don't throw hard enough. And at that point in your career, I, I would argue, yes, it's worth, it's worth the risk to take on. And, seeing a big uptick in velocity, whether you're like a late high school athlete, who's looking to sign at a college or getting an opportunity to college, or like you're a senior in college and you're The only way you're going to get drafted, if that's what you want is you need to throw four to five miles an hour harder. Yes. I would say at that point in your career, it's worth taking on those risks. If you're looking to make a, like create longevity in your career, I would say exercise and pursue all of the less invasive slash like aggressive options first, and if you've exhausted all those options and you're still not getting the results you want, well, at least at that point, you've created a good foundation To sustain all this stress that you're going to start now piling onto your arms. So that's generally like, and again, that always comes back to making sure you understand, like, where is this athlete? What do they need most, do they need physical development or do they need, skill development? And so having good conversations with them and their parents and where they want to go and what they want to do and getting the whole picture and understanding that is, I think just as important as of the assessment process is. Looking and addressing it like movement patterns, general specific movement patterns. Like, I think those questions are as equally as poignant and important to addressing the whole need, like the whole picture of that athlete. And that's what's going to say, like, all right, here's, we're starting training next week after our assessment, here's where we're going to go, right? And here's the approach over the next five to six months. And here's the approach over the next couple of years, right? As long as they're okay with that and they're on board and there's a plan. And I think that's where like most athletes really succeed when they, when they have a plan and they can stick to it. Kids get into trouble when they start to be like, Oh, well, like, again, we talked about like young parents with young athletes, the fear of missing out and putting them in travel ball. It's like same thing. Like athletes want, they want things fast. They don't, they don't want to delay gratification. They want to see results now. And so I think. Through the training process, it's like giving them small wins to like, make them realize that they're making improvement, but I'm getting them to understand the big picture is so important. So.

Ryan Patrick: 22:21

I couldn't agree more. The number of parents that come in and ask, Oh, you know, I want my kid to jump higher. I want him to throw harder. And they go through a basic movement competency assessment and they can't do a body weight lunge without falling out of it. And their pushup looks like they're doing the work. These are very foundational movements. And so. With respect to a thrower, if you can't do a lunge, you're not going to be able to receive force on your lead leg when you're throwing because something's spinning out. If you don't have the scapular, the thoracoscapular control to do a pushup, managing a high velocity throw seems like an impossibility and I always go back. I don't know if this is 100 percent accurate representation, but I think for the sake of analogy, it's the pyramid, right? The broader the base, the higher the peak, so to speak, a lot of people want the icing on the top. They want the, the tip top of the pyramid, the sports specific stuff. And to me, it sounds like you're, you're kind of alluding to the fact that, well, there's probably more similarities of just having a decent athletic foundation for these athletes. Then there is the need for all this specialized training, equipment and programming. Is that fair?

Mickey Brueckner: 23:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I would say, I think the need for the basics are so important, especially for the young athlete when that's a lever that they haven't pulled yet, right? Becoming more sports specific and more nuanced and, and, and more complicated and complex with your training is that that's should be reserved for athletes that have a high training age and that are at like higher levels of training where you do need to start pulling different levels and in order to still continually create. You know, adaptation, right? You don't need a ton of stress on a young athlete to make good physiological changes, good motor control pattern, like all that stuff, like you don't need much. And the simpler we can make it at a young age, the better, because if again, most of these kids, they want to, they want to have a long career. Like if we start pulling all those, those levers when they're, a training age of one or two, or like, like really young. We're not going to have that ability to do that when they're maybe like a, a, a veteran in, in the big leagues or in college even, right? Like we need to reserve those more like. challenging training efforts towards like when they become more advanced athletes. Right. So you're right. I, I, I think we have to hammer the basics with the young athletes and make sure like we're addressing those things first before we even start getting into, more demanding, more quote unquote, like sophisticated type of training methodologies. So,

Ryan Patrick: 25:19

yeah, without going too hard the other direction, I do want to talk about the, the arm care epidemic. Because it seems like, coaches driveline guys, nothing against them. Some physios, they have, they have the cookbook. These are arm care exercises. Everyone should just do them, all of them. And that's not really unique or individual, but there are probably some things that I think, globally are important. And so I kind of want to zoom out on this. And when you're looking at just managing the throwing shoulder and elbow, honestly, where do you start with this assessment process? What is your thinking? How, what's the lens that you're looking at all of this stuff through movement?

Mickey Brueckner: 26:13

That's the first thing, right? Because I think no amount of, of. Scapular stability or glenohumeral stability is gonna outlast somebody who moves like crap. I think at the end of the day, like, the most important thing is moving well and having a good, efficient, like, kinematic sequence. Right? If you can do those things. I think that's, that's low hanging fruit for most athletes. So for me, like I used to do a lot more arm care with like top to bottom high level, low level throwers. I don't focus as much now with a low level throwers on like, your quote unquote, like cuff and, and scap work now we still do it. But we don't do it as religiously with our super young athletes. For me, I'm focusing more on like, Hey, do you move well? Can you move proximal to distal? Do you have good reciprocal movement patterns? Can you push, can you pull, can your, can, can your scapula drive the movement of your humerus? Right. Can you dissociate your upper body? Like, do you have a good. Like subjectively speaking, do you have a good solid, like kinematic sequence, right? Does your pelvis lead your trunk? Does your trunk lead your scap to your upper arm? Does your arm lead your hand? Like is all that stuff clean, right? If we can, if we can check all those things off, oftentimes like great. Now, like you're probably starting to throw pretty hard at that point. Like you're, you're probably like, if you can sequence your, your delivery really well, you're probably throwing on the upper side of, from the velocity standpoint. So at that point, yes, we do need to start focusing on cuff strength, scap strength neuromuscular timing and, and glenohumeral stability and all those things working and, and moving, congruently together. But again, movement, if they're lacking that. Go there first. But as far as like, once you start becoming a, a more advanced thrower, now you're playing the same sport, like you're, you're a starter, you logging a lot of innings, then I think, as velocity goes up, then the need for your quote unquote arm care work does become more important. So I think just understanding where the athlete is and their evolution and their development is going to really dictate. How much of that stuff we're focusing on. And I think to be honest, like some of those, those businesses that you mentioned, like, I think they do a great job in terms of improving performance. To me, arm care is less about performance. It's about creating longevity, right? Because if you look at any athlete in their evolution, if they can stay healthy, they're just going to reap the, the compounding effects of development. Right. But as soon as, in my case included, like, as soon as you get injured, you revert back, like you have to start all over again. So I think the best thing we can do in terms of helping these kids development. Number one thing, most important thing is keep them healthy. Right, because if you look at every, every velocity study across the board, there's only one metric that is always in every study positively affecting velocity, and that's H. It's the only one that has a, like, every single time it has a positive effect. So if we can just over time, keep them healthy and give them what they need in order to stay healthy. And to me, arm care is again, it's, it's also load management, getting them to understand, like, when are they doing their arm care? How much of it they're doing, like managing their throwing programs, their volume, all that stuff. And that's, that takes time. And it takes an athlete who's mature enough to understand, like, look, I'm Sometimes more is not always more. I need to ride the ebbs and flows of the, the competitive year and make sure I'm like, there's parts of the year where I'm focusing on development right in the weight room, in the gym, and then there's parts of the year where I'm focusing on developing as a pitcher. And I think you have to, there's gotta be a dichotomy there. It can't just all be all things all the time. And I think that's where kids. Generally get into trouble with, with just developing velocity and arm care. So,

Ryan Patrick: 30:03

yeah, there's a couple of things I want to touch on. First, I'm going to start with the young athlete and their kinematic sequence. This sounds very fancy and maybe challenging for like a listener, like a coach or a parent who doesn't really know what we're talking about, but. To, to my ear, what I'm hearing is for these young kids, they probably just need more exposure to their activity to, to sync up the timing. Cause we talked about my son off air. He's eight years old and he's got some friends who have got this figured out. They're, they're very efficient athletes already. You can see what they're doing. Of course they throw harder. Of course they, they are doing things better, but I also watch him. Cause he does not have as much exposure. They're just. Just kind of figure this out just through practice. And so I guess what I would like you to just kind of dive into is for some of these athletes on the younger side, it's not really like they have big deficits. It's maybe just repetition exposure or what else is it to, to bring this sequencing to a level where you can start to train it and develop it.

Mickey Brueckner: 31:09

I think you touched on it, but getting greater exposure to different. Modalities, right? For me like I have a six year old son and we do like we'll throw footballs, we'll throw like small, like yesterday we were hitting like a small, tiny little volleyball, like different implements. But like, I think the challenge is, is people think their only way of doing this is if I want to be better at baseball, I have to throw baseball all the time. And I think physical literacy comes from multiple exposures to different types of stimulus. So I think for me. There's nothing that can be taken, like, you have to, like, just go out and throw with your kids, expose them to that, like, different ways of, like, and I think the most important thing is if kids can have some type of, like, self discovery, where you're not focusing on Like pristine mechanics, right? I look at, like I work with young throwers, my son included, and, and, and all that stuff across the board. I think the more we can expose them to different types of stimulus, the better. So oftentimes, like I said, if, if you, if you want your kid to be a baseball player or a pitcher, let's just use that as an example, like you gotta, you gotta get them out and like, maybe throw like a, a light med ball, like to. Give them a different implement to hold and create some type of sequence where like you're, you're not focusing on an excessive amount of like queuing and, you know, pristine mechanics. It's just like, all right, throw this thing as hard as you can. And a lot of times young kids, like. An efficient sequence will come about if you do it long enough. And maybe like, look, if there's huge problems with their delivery, if there's challenges, maybe give them a couple things to focus on. But I think the simpler we can make it, the less coaching intensive we can make it at a young age, the better. Right. And as like, I think as kids get older, like. There needs to be a point where a coach should be able to pick the right drill to put the athlete in the right position to move, right? Whether it's a constraint, whether it's through the implement they're holding, or if they're using straps or core velocity belts or things like that. But the role of a coach shouldn't mean that like I'm queuing every little position and every little movement. Like there's gotta be a point where the athlete's got to just figure it out. So find, find drills and deliveries and different opportunities for athletes to explore those movements. I mean, I, like I said, I played multiple sports. Like I, I swung golf clubs, I played hockey, I hit baseballs, played wiffle ball, played with like, I mean, you name it, we did everything. And I think there's less and less of that. So there's less physical literacy, like athletes, they just, their inability to kind of, Figure stuff out like they they're almost like they're nowadays like kids. They're just looking to be told what to do and I'll work with young quarterbacks and they'll throw a ball and be like, how was that? And it's like well I'm not gonna coach you after every single throw and if I see like a consistent pattern arise then I'm gonna make a correction But at the end of the day like you're not gonna figure this stuff out unless you get thousands and thousands of repetitions, right? So I think that's something where a lot of athletes really need to understand. And parents need to understand is like, let's just get them out, go throw like where there's, there's, it's all about self discovery and it's not about, it's not about competing. It's not about like the results. It's just about building the process involved. So I think that's where I think if we can just take results out of some of the development and, and the, the time they're spending in the sport, right? Like most, most times kids are playing now it's all in games. So there's really no, there's no learning or skill acquisition happening in games. They're responding to the situation that's in front of them. But if we can remove them from that and like, just go out and practice more, play less, I think that's the simplest thing I would say is practice more and play less. And get kids out of the competition is as much as possible. So.

Ryan Patrick: 35:11

Oh, that's a tough pill for a lot of people to swallow. Yeah. Exploration and discovery are almost lost from the developing athlete. I mean, we don't go outside. We would go outside and we would make games up. It's like, well, we've got a cooler, a boom box and a football and like. These, these 2 objects are going to be our bases or something that we would use and we would create a game or even something as simple as like, well, we're going to do dodgeball, but all we have is a football. So it might hurt a little bit more when you get hit, but we'll go with it. Like, anything above the waist is out, and so you had to figure this out. You had to figure this stuff out. You just don't, you don't see that anymore. And the other side of it, I remember being, seventh, eighth grader, so amped up for games because they were so infrequent, they mattered more. Not the case anymore. There, there was resistance to practice. Sometimes I'm like, ah, practice coach is going to make us run. We're going to do layup lines or drills or whatever it is. It's kind of boring. I almost see this aversion to games now because the competitive calendar is so congested for a lot of these kids that it's almost meaningless.

Mickey Brueckner: 36:31

Yeah. Like I'd encourage parents like to have like kids make up games. Like I'll, I'll bring my kids to the annex on the weekends. I mean, something as simple as like a. Like take a, take a, like a young hitter, for example, right? Like a young kid who doesn't have like hand strength or stuff like that. So, I have, I'll go, I'll take my son to the annex and, and we made up a game where we had a small soccer ball and. He was like swinging. He was struggling to like maintain balance and like an athletic base. So I'm like, all right, I'm going to bounce this ball and you have to like move and react and hit it and get in a good position. So it's forcing him to be athletic, forcing him to understand where his feet are and he's hitting a heavier ball. So now he's building strength, like from, from when it, that makes contact with the ball. So it's just like, I mean, literally make stuff up. Make it fun, right? For me, like, if my son's having fun, or if any athlete's having fun, they're gonna, like, they're gonna soak that stuff up way better than it's like, oh, man, this sucks. Like, the last thing I want is like, my, like, if my son doesn't want to do something, I won't force him. But like yesterday I came home and it was freezing outside, but he wanted to go out and like hit, hit baseballs. I'm like, all right, I'm going to take advantage of this. So like use those and capitalize on those opportunities as parents. I know it's tough in, in the constant like ebb and flow and go nature of our society. But like, I think you have to meet athletes on their own terms, especially young athletes. And, and I'm a really, I'm really bad at this because like, when I wanted him to practice, I want him to do it my way. And I quickly realized like, no, I got to meet him where he's at. I got to make things fun for him. So he wants to be there. And so like, it's meaningful. And as soon as it becomes meaningful in his eyes, maybe it's like, like, We make little, like, single sided, simple games. It's, it's a world of difference, in terms of them, like, learning and, and figuring stuff out, rather than just be like, Alright, we're gonna go, we're gonna go practice, we're gonna do this, and it's like, look, there's time and place for that when they get older, right? That happens when they're, More developed and they're like, all right, this is what I want to play. I want to play this sport in college. And it becomes more, I don't want to say it's a job, but it's more regimented. It's more disciplined, but as a kid, make it fun, just make it fun. So.

Ryan Patrick: 38:54

So we deliberately turn just about every 11 year old and under away because we don't have the space for that kind of stuff. I think it's so important. And I try to tell parents we are ill equipped from a space and a staff standpoint to accommodate what your athlete actually needs, but they will call me. My 10 year old needs speed training or he needs higher velocity. I'm like, no, he probably needs a nap and like to just chill out for a little bit. Yeah. But what you're saying is just, it's so important in, in the development of the athlete, because we do work with these older athletes. They come in 12, 13, 14, which if you look at a long term athletic development model, I'm thinking this is. Train to train you're, you're getting into this stage. Some athletes are still not ready, particularly the boys of the day. Sometimes they're a little immature, totally fine. But I see kids who come in who missed the boat on this. They've only done export in a very controlled competitive club environment. And they can't skip their reciprocal patterns are. They're not there. They're their baseline strength, their body control, all of it missing. And I have to tell the parents, there is a substantial amount of just requisite work that they need to get to a baseline. That's even going to allow us to drive performance. In the direction that you want.

Mickey Brueckner: 40:23

Yeah. And not, not, not the least of which, like they also don't respond well to coaching. They don't pay attention. They're not focused. I have to tell them something three to four times. Yeah. They're not ready. And I think that's where like, That's a, that's a situation where I think the, the parent is forcing the athlete into something that they're not really thrilled about. Like, I don't think the athlete certainly is not going to see the, the ROI on something like that. Right? So it's like, you're wasting, you're wasting your time and you're, you're like, you're almost pushing the athlete in the opposite direction you want. But I think if there's scenarios where like, you make it as fun as possible and you make it like through games. And the key is, is like, you want to, like, you, you want to choose drills and, and things that kind of trick the athlete into like moving the way you want, but in a way that like, they're having fun. Right. And so that's like, if you make it like competition in, in training and like, Relay races or different things where it becomes like fun for the athlete, now you're you're checking several boxes. They're having an, they're, they're having enjoyment through it. They're improving physical literacy. They're building themselves up and like they're socializing, right? Let's not, let's not also discount that. Right. I think the more opportunities we can create for kids to socialize off screen or in just in a, in a face to face scenario outside of just sports and other things like then that's a win too. So.

Ryan Patrick: 41:54

Yeah, the social skills need some development, but we do, I have to, we have to finesse a lot of these kids into, into training. Yeah. One of the last things I want is a kid who comes in who I know they're not planning on going to college. They're not planning on going to the next level to associate what we do with punishment, with being punitive, with being something that is just an interruption to their schedule, because they already have Pretty high demands in terms of their club or their team or their practice schedule, possibly they're hitting or pitching lessons on top of that. They're, they're trying to figure out the social landscape of being a teenager. In most cases, again, I'm talking about the older kids that we work with and to add this on top of it, if it is at all something they dislike, they will quickly find their way out of it. And. Either not do it potentially ever again. And so I want them to have this positive association of like, Hey, this is, you know what, this is actually kind of fun. Like I enjoy this and I can see myself doing it in college in some capacity to take care of myself. But it can quickly go the wrong way.

Mickey Brueckner: 43:10

Yeah. And I think for you and I, your, your background is probably very similar. Like you had, you're in this field because you had such an overwhelmingly positive experience from a young age. Right? Like you see the profound effects it's had on your life from a positive standpoint. Both in and outside of the gym. Like I know for me, like it changed my trajectory as a young adult. It started me down that pathway of like personal growth and always trying to get better and understanding delayed gratification. Like before I started training. I was ADHD. I was on like medication and I just couldn't focus on like I was I wasn't a great student and like I remember the day like I started training and I started to say like see the results time like like after like working for, a couple months. I'm like, wow, if I just take the same level of discipline in anything. I'll start to see results. So I went to my parents that I don't want it. Like I'm done with this, ADHD medication. Like I figured out school, I figured out like how I needed to learn in order to be successful. And again, like that's, that's where we see the positive effects. So I think for us, if we can help create the, the, the the opportunity for athletes and not just long term athletes, but people, young, young, young individuals in general, like get them to understand the importance of this stuff, because it's, it's a lifelong skill to be able to do this, whether you're playing sports or whether you're a dad of three, like me. Right. Like fitness is the, as you say, I always, you're the first person I heard this from, but fitness is the first domino, right? If you can't take care of yourself, you can't take care of people around you. And that's a really important thing to understand at an early age. It takes a lot of wisdom and like, you really need some, some self awareness, but I think navigating a gym and understanding training is like, it's a microcosm for life because like. In life, you, you get what you put in. In training, you get what you put in. Right. The weights never lie that like, it's, it's, it's always going to tell the truth. And so I think this is stuff that I try to teach my own kids. It's like, look, no matter what you want in life, like you got to be willing to work for it. And that's not to say like, you're never going to achieve it. And like, Even though you do work, you still might not achieve it, but you're certainly going to improve your chances. And so I think training is, is just that in general. So the sooner we can get kids, whether you want to play sports or whether you want to just, crush life and, and be successful in whatever you're chasing, if they can understand that simple principle, they can apply to anything and everything. And so. Like, like the point you made getting kids to understand that it's really tough and it takes some good self awareness. But I think if we can get kids on that thought process sooner than later, then we can really positively affect somebody's trajectory in their life, both whether they're, playing sports or not. And I think that's, that's where I see the most profound impact because like I have athletes that I've trained when I first started the annex and they're now parents. And they're coming back and training with us now as adults. And that like, it comes full circle. It's so, and to me, that's, that's really cool because. Been around these, these athletes their whole life. And the fact that they continually come back, I meet their kids, I meet their spouses and like that I had a profound, and that's not everybody, but it's, it's a, it's a decent amount, but it's, it's really special and it makes it like all the more worth, like that, you, what you're doing is making a difference in that person's life. So. I

Ryan Patrick: 47:00

couldn't agree more with what you just said. I will add a, I will add a small bit to this. That I've talked about in another podcast, but I don't know if we've ever had this conversation. So I had an athlete come to us. He had graduated from a local county high school. He was a, an okay athlete. Didn't get recruited to college or anything like that. Came back after his freshman year and said, Hey, I want to walk onto this team. And so my conversation with him was, was very simple, but along these lines of, Are you Are you prepared to do whatever it takes and work harder than you've ever worked to achieve this? And he says, yes, of course. I said, okay, are you prepared to put that level of effort in and not make it? And of course, he, he kind of hesitates because. You don't want to think about that. And I've heard a number of entrepreneurs say myself included, if I knew how hard it was going to be, I might not have done this, but he actually said yes. And I was of course like pleased with that. But I think the important thing was I was like, good, because even if you don't make this, what you are going to learn from investing yourself wholly into this process, into the commitment that you make to bettering yourself, you will be successful. In in nearly every endeavor of your life, there's sometimes there's just nothing we can do about a talent about a guy who's born. That's 6, 7 with, hands like mallets. Like, of course, he's going to be an offensive lineman. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do about that stuff. But. In, in real life outside of sport, you can learn other ways to be successful. You, you may get to an impasse and it just means that way or that strategy is, is not going to help you get to where you want to go. And so you learn, right? So it's the, the whole winner learn mentality, but. I love it because that I feel inside of the weight room talent really gets separated by those who work because you'll see that the kids who get the best results are the ones who invest themselves, who are consistent, who do things outside of the sessions. And so I try to communicate this to a lot of athletes of our kids that go to the next level. Don't they don't have highlight reel workouts. It's not this crazy intensity of what they're doing. Yes. They train hard, But it's more a consistency that's difficult to maintain for nearly anybody because we all have distractions. We all have competing commitments that that pull your attention. But if you can, if you can follow this process, man, there's just so there's just abundant upside for you for the potentially the rest of your life. And that's. To me, that's worth learning and appreciating this process and what I would love every kid who comes through my care to understand.

Mickey Brueckner: 50:01

Yeah. Yeah, I like to say like, talent has a ceiling, right? It's, it'll, some, some people's talent will take them further than others. But, you look at those athletes who are at the top of their level. And the ones that stick around for a long time and stay healthy and they're relevant for a long time. And they have longevity in their career. They're the ones that they, they manage the on field stuff really well, because they have the skill and the talent to do so they manage the development and the off season and all the, the, like. There's the stuff from physically preparing themselves, but they also handle the lifestyle. Like they, they check all of those boxes. And I think, you can be successful in sports at a high level and maybe manage two of the three. Right. But you might not be around or have as long of a career as you'd like, but if you can manage all three of those things. Right now that's a power, really powerful combination. And it's not a coincidence that the people who do it really well are the ones who play, for decades for, for two decades or, or, somewhere around there. And, and so I think that's where, anybody who's achieving at a high level, whether it be on the, the arena of sport or business or whatever, like they're doing all those things really well at a high level. And they're doing it with intention every day. Like you said, with the expectation, like it might all not, not all work out, but I'm going to still going to do it anyway. So,

Ryan Patrick: 51:29

yeah, before we go too far and just be the old guys on our, on our pedestal, I do, I do want to circle back because you, you touched on something earlier that I think is worth revisiting before we shut this down. And you said, arm care is really about. Or load management is arm care. Can you expand a little bit on that? Because at the high school level, I see a lot of coaches who are very old school who do things that maybe contemporaries. And best practices don't support. So just how is a, how is an athlete supposed to take responsibility for their own arm care when maybe they're misused or what would be some of the best practices for them to just maintain their health throughout the season?

Mickey Brueckner: 52:26

If we're speaking more specifically in an in season protocol I think it's going to be dependent upon whether you're a starter or a reliever. But let's, let's use a scenario of a starter because often they're pretty easy to work around. I think understanding that you have high, high days and low days, like high output days and low output days. We want to look at. The physiological stress on the body as high output days. And those are your start days and your bullpen days, and maybe like a moderate throw day in between most high school kids, they're pitching on a six, maybe like seven day rotation. So out of the course of a seven day rotation, you're two of those days, you're throwing at high output. One day you're competing. And one day you're doing like a side, side, pen, field day, whatever you want to call it. Those are the days you want to compartmentalize more of the stress, whether it be the arm care work you're doing, the training you're doing. Like generally speaking, for a lot of our high school and college pitchers, like their arm care is happening either then like right after to jumpstart. Recovery or the day after paired with like a heavy lower body lift the day after they start then a couple days later they throw their pen that's the second day they're doing arm care. The challenge becomes is if you're maybe throwing too high output days. And then you're doing arm care on, on other days. Now, like you're constantly at a high stress of your, your arm, like your, your, your load management, it's, it's constantly high threshold. There's, so you don't have the days that you're like physiology, your tissue, your soft tissue can actually like recover and like, It's otherwise, it's just always going to be stressed and it's really tough over a long period, like over, over a season that's going to, it's going to start to, to create issues towards the end of the season. So, generally speaking, the biggest thing I'd, I'd, I'd encourage athletes to pick those two days. Where you're throwing high outputs, long tossing, throwing off the mound. Essentially those are your high stress days and pair those days with your arm care and your lifts. The other days, try to do stuff that's low intensity. Like, flexibility mobility circuits. Work with a soft tissue, like a manual therapist the day after your start to kind of maintain like soft tissue quality in your, in like your, post your cuff and your lat and all those, all those, all that like areas that really get, Like crushed and bogged down throughout the course of the year. But I think understanding that it's like an ebb and a flow, it's like, we can't always be at high intensity all days of the week. We need to create opportunities for our arm to rest. And it becomes particularly more challenging when you have a pitcher who's also maybe a shortstop or catcher or a center, like guys who are up the middle of the field. It's just a matter of like. Listening to your arm, understanding like there's periods where like you need rest. Don't throw through pain, right? If you have pain, like there's, there's something happening and you need to speak to somebody, right? So many athletes have gotten into trouble because they just throw through pain and they expect it to go away eventually until it doesn't. And now you're getting surgery. And like, that's what happened to me. I've known a lot of athletes who like, yeah, this has been bothering me for a while, I didn't say anything and now I'm going to get elbow surgery. So you have to be a good advocate for yourself. Like communicate with your coach, like, Hey, I need to skip a start. I need an off day. Like, don't be afraid to do it because like, at the end of the day, like whether you get surgery or not, like the coach might say he cares, but he's got other kids next year. You might move on to college baseball and it's not going to affect him. So yeah. I think understanding like from a physiological standpoint, like the body can only like stand so much stress over the course of a week. So really managing that is I think the most practical way of doing that. Relievers, it's a little bit more challenging, but again, use like if you're, if you're competing and pitching in, in, in game twice a week, those are your high days, right? Like maybe you're not throwing bullpens, Throughout the course of the week, but you pitch twice a week. Those are your high days. So try to get your lifts around those days. Try to get your arm care around those days. And I would categorize most of the stuff in terms of arm care that really stresses the arm is like rotator cuff stuff, like your external rotation, internal rotation, those types of like, stereotypical stuff that people think of in terms of arm care, scap work and rhythmic stabilization stuff, isn't going to tax your arm quite as much, but I would still try to compartmentalize that stress as close to your competitive events as possible. Okay.

Ryan Patrick: 56:54

Talking to your wives, your T's and all that.

Mickey Brueckner: 56:56

Yeah. And I think that's the simplest way of doing it right. Like rather than like. If you're, if you're pitching twice a week and then you do an arm care twice a week, now that's like, like four days a week where you're stressing your arm. Whereas if you're only doing it too, now you have a lot more days in between starts to fully recover and allow that tissue to like heal and all that type of stuff. So, I think that like getting on that rotation and telling your coach, like, look, I need, I need to do this in order to stay healthy. Like, I, I'm like, this is the plan. If you can communicate with your coach and give him a solid reason behind why you're doing things. I'd be surprised if he would fight you on it, unless, unless they're just completely, incapable of, of communicating or doing that stuff. But if you go to your coach and tell them like, this is the plan. This is when I want it. Like, here's when I want to throw, here's when I want to do my arm care. Can you help support me in this? I hope that a coach is going to listen to you and see that you have, you've done your research. You've done the, like the. The learning behind it, and you have the why, and maybe they'll be more inclined to listen to you and help, help support you in your efforts. So.

Ryan Patrick: 58:06

That's amazing. So to kind of put a neat bow on that athletes need to communicate and advocate for themselves above all. Yeah. Consolidating rotator cuff stress to similar days. So you would do some arm care the same day as a pitch start. That way you have a true off day where you can address mobility with some, self myofascial release. flexibility, et cetera. Is

Mickey Brueckner: 58:30

that fair? The, the big takeaway is always, don't be doing arm care before you throw like it, so do it after your start day as like a, if you have a J band routine just to warm up to throw, maybe do something similar after you throw the night, the night of, or the day after night of you do it as like, kind of like blood flow and start to jumpstart the recovery process. If you wanted to do more like quote unquote arm care stuff the day after, I'm fine with that. I would do that before you lift and then like your midweek bullpen or like side day, I would, I would do all your throwing and then I would do your arm care after that. But always make sure throwing happens first before you're doing true arm care work. But yeah, the way you outlaid it is, is exactly where I would put it.

Ryan Patrick: 59:16

Perfect. All right. Let's, let's start to wrap this up, man. So I know you hit some recent PRS in your own lifting which is amazing. So you're still working with James rebel performance. What is, what's your training looking like these days?

Mickey Brueckner: 59:29

Four days a week of lifting like lower upper splits and then two days of like, One day of like easy conditioning, one day of like harder conditioning. I, I personally like three days of lifting, like three, three high days and two, two to three low days that just from my schedule and just overall, like the way I feel tends to work best for me I'm going to, I'm going to do it. My coach says, cause it just makes, it takes the guesswork out of it for me. And I just got to show up and do the work, but that's generally what we've been doing. Definitely more of a bias on like just strength development rather than like hypertrophy. Like sometimes if I'm overly focused on hypertrophy, I just, I feel like a Lego man, I don't really move all too well. And especially like all the, I still do a lot of like throwing with quarterbacks and baseball players. And I just know that. If I spend too long on hypertrophy, like I start to not like when I throw, I feel like garbage. So not a coincidence, of course. So it hasn't become too stiff and rigid.

Ryan Patrick: 1:00:28

I don't know, man. I love that stuff. But it's you get to a point where you're like, like, I can't, I can't move. Like I am. guys that go where, gotta wear a belt just to do arm curls now. Obviously you've got the podcast what other content out there? Should I direct people to who don't know about you or. Want to learn more about what you're doing.

Mickey Brueckner: 1:00:53

Yeah. I mean, most of the stuff I do, I put on Instagram. My Instagram is at Mick Bruckner. I'd say, given the context of our conversation today, a lot of it has been about arm care. I did a, I did a, like a podcast specifically. And it was just myself or it was just about arm care. I don't remember what episode it is. But if, if you really want, like, and I kind of get into the specifics of like cuff work, scap work, rhythmic stabilization how to, like, and I talked earlier about like, How important like, like just general movement and sequences in terms of creating good arm care. Like I addressed that too. I'd say that would be a really good, if, if the arm care topic is something that interests you, I would definitely look into that. It's fantastic.

Ryan Patrick: 1:01:37

I listened to

Mickey Brueckner: 1:01:37

it. Thank you. But yeah, I mean, for me, like the reason I started the podcast, probably the similar to you is like, I just, I wanted to have meaningful conversations around training and development with people that I respect. And if it provides value to anybody who chooses to listen, then, then it, then it's a win. It served its purpose. So. All

Ryan Patrick: 1:01:58

right, man. Well, what's next for MTV, for Annex?

Mickey Brueckner: 1:02:02

Well, you know, I mean, we, we continue to grow year after year. I think our, our core values is, is always about helping the athlete and anything and everything we pursue is, is. heavily rooted in the goal of helping the athletes, both whether it's in our facility or social media or, on the, on, on the web, like all we're trying to do is like, we're just trying to create again, good, good conversations, good and meaningful, like way of educating our athletes coaches too, right? Like we want to, we want to help mentor athletes along their, their process. And I mean, that's, that's why we all got into this. It's just, I think as we evolved and have grown, we're just choosing different mediums through which we can potentially help athletes. I think. It's always been about serving the athlete in front of you. Now it's just how do we serve more athletes that, that aren't, that don't have the ability to, to be in front of us in person. It's definitely a little bit more nuanced and, and has its own challenges relative, like it's very easy to work with, with athletes in person, but you know, I, I'm, I'm trying to evolve in, in terms of helping athletes remotely and all this stuff that I've learned over the 18 years I've been, been doing this. Yeah, I've, I've learned a few things, so if I can relay that information to coaches and athletes, then, then it's a win for me.

Ryan Patrick: 1:03:26

Definitely worth following you, man. So, for those remote athletes, can you spell your last name and give me your Instagram handle so that they can, they can actually find you?

Mickey Brueckner: 1:03:34

Yeah, it's at M I C K, last name B R U E C K N E

Ryan Patrick: 1:03:40

R. Awesome. Well, man, I appreciate you being on today. I have a ton of respect for you. I appreciate you shared. Your background, your struggles and all the insight that you have. And man, I can't wait till we have a day where we actually get to meet in person and cut it up a little bit.

Mickey Brueckner: 1:03:57

That would be great. And, and Ryan, the, the, the feeling is mutual. I respect what you're doing and proud to call you a friend, brother.

Ryan Patrick: 1:04:03

Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, man. And everybody else take care. Yep.

Mickey Brueckner: 1:04:07

Thanks.