020 - JP Guerrero on Movement Efficiency in Baseball Athletes

JP Guerrero is a performance coach at The Strength House in Harvard, MA.

Here's a quick overview of our show:
✅ His journey from injured athlete to performance coach
✅ How he blends his baseball career with performance training for maximal results
✅ Managing stress imposed on athletes from various coaches
✅ Blending "Big Data" with smart movement
✅ Keep training simple for his athletes
✅ ..and much, much more


To follow JP on the socials, please visit his instagram @jp_guerrero_tsh

Please follow us on instagram @coachryanpatrick for more content and solutions to this podcast.

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Transcript

M-2-peakfast: 0:05

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Ryan Patrick: 2:00

Everyone welcome back. I am super excited for today's guest J. P. Guerrero. Man, I've been following you for a little bit on social media, like we were just talking about offline and really enjoy what you guys are doing with the baseball population, especially your implementation of Bill Hartman's model and some of the nuances that come with that. So I'm excited to dive deep into that. But before I get too carried away, can you start by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what led you to your work with baseball players?

JP Guerrero: 2:28

Yeah, so, uh, I'm originally from Roswell, New Mexico, born and raised, um, little, like, dairy town in, in, uh, southeast New Mexico, UFO themed, um, yeah, like, alien crafts there in the 40s, um, went to New Mexico Military Institute for high school and junior college. Uh, played baseball there for junior college, um, and then after two years there got recruited, transferred to a D2 in northern New Mexico, uh, New Mexico Highlands and pitched there for another two years. And, but my first year there, I, uh, I tore my labrum first semester. Um, and during the physical therapy and rehab process, I kind of just started gravitating a little more towards the training side and player development side of baseball, um, and started, uh, Noticed that I was taking more of an interest in that side of the game than playing personally. Um, and so started developing my own lifting program, my own throwing program. Uh, once I kind of got comfortable doing that, started, you know, reaching out to my teammates and being like, Hey, You know, you throw 83, maybe we can put you on a throwing program and help you get to 85 or, you know, you're having elbow pain. Maybe we could try this out. And so start experimenting with teammates and, you know, my buddies and getting feedback from them doing that. Uh, and then after I got done playing and graduated, I moved to Las Cruces, New Mexico. And began really just full in on the training side of my career. Um, worked in Las Cruces for two years. Uh, and then got hired on as an intern at the strength house last summer, learned the Bill Hartman model with Greg and had a mentorship with Greg, uh, Greg Robbins. Um, learned a lot through him. And then after the summer, thankfully he hired me on and, you know, I've been blessed to be able to have the opportunity to work at the strength house for the past year.

Ryan Patrick: 4:31

Yeah. So in the process of your rehab, did you feel like it was a failed rehab? Because I find that's what inspires a lot of guys to take things into their own hands.

JP Guerrero: 4:41

It was, it was a frustrating process of, I would feel a hundred percent, you know, and then, you know, whether it was a PT or an athletic trainer would be like, well, you know, in this part of your process, I don't think we're there yet. Even though. Personally, I can feel like, well, I have the full range of motion in my shoulder and, you know, my shoulder feels stronger again where I can be able to throw again. Um, and I felt like they were sticking to the plan, which is, you know, smart. And then as an athlete, you always want to kind of rush yourself. Um, but I felt like the, the plan was taking longer than it should have. Um, and I felt that they were doing a lot of stuff that didn't fit my needs. Um, and that's where I kind of started to try to deep dive into different throwing programs, different lifting programs, and see what they were doing with guys with similar injuries or, um, listen, Robbie Roland was a big one. I've listened to his podcast and him talk about guys with shoulder injuries or shoulder injuries he's gone through and listen to those processes. And then really think about how the. The physical therapy that in rehab that I was doing was a little more cookie cutter where you weren't getting the results as quickly. Um, and then that's kind of what led me to go down the path.

Ryan Patrick: 6:02

Very cool. So how'd you happen upon Greg and the strength house? Because they're not, uh, you know, they're not XOs. They're in this little area like Massachusetts or wherever you guys are in the Northeast. So how did you, how did you even get connected with them?

JP Guerrero: 6:16

I think they popped up on my discover page. I want to say coach Willsie, um, he popped up on my discover page one day. It was a hitting post. I kind of took a small look at it. I liked, you know, what he was talking about in the caption, gave him a follow, found the strength house page shortly after that gave them a follow. Um, and then it was just like, small, like, you know, here and there following in on what they would post and, you know, check in and try to read something new from them. Um, then I started kind of deep diving into Greg's blogs on the website and, um, began to really take an interest of what they were doing and kind of buying into that and noticing that it's, it's very untraditional, you know, and it's, it's not your, we're going to slam heavy weights and we're going to just basically throw every day as hard as we can, or it's, it's a lot more. You're going to crush some weights, but we're also going to gain you, uh, some movement capabilities that you didn't know you had.

Ryan Patrick: 7:15

Very cool. Anytime we start talking about this whole process of developing an athlete or, you know, you just kind of getting immersed in, in some of this Bill Hartman, model, and I know you guys are pulling other pieces in, but I think, when people start asking about this, if I feel like the first place To really begin is, at the level of the assessment. So we've got a baseball player. It's an asymmetrical human playing an asymmetrical sport. And in order to make some informed decisions about what to do with their training, we have to have better assessments. So, when it comes to your guys assessment process and just. You know, it could be the specifics of the assessment or just some of the thought processes behind it. What are some of the big rocks that you guys are looking for as these athletes are going through the evaluation process?

JP Guerrero: 8:03

Uh, so the first thing we take on their initial eval is we measure their infrasternal angle. So it's the, uh, angle of the lower ribs. Um, so there's two archetypes, it's, uh, narrows and wides, and, you know, it's a big gradient. So you're either a narrow, narrow, wide, wide, or somewhere in the middle, right? And it just kind of gives us an idea of what your strengths and weaknesses will be. So, wides typically, uh, favor internal rotation, narrows favor external rotation. Understanding that first, um, so we take that, then we take your normal, you know, table measurement, shoulder, flexion, internal rotation, external rotation, hip flexion, internal rotation, external rotation, and then hip extension. Um, And so we take those into mind, but the thing I look at the most is the movement tests. So we'll take posture pictures, um, and this will kind of show how they stand in a relaxed state. Um, so I just had a post recently about how one of the pitchers I work with, his left scap was pinned against his rib cage. Um, so you can see that in the posture picture and now, you know, okay, well he needs that space to rotate into whenever he's throwing the rib cage needs to be able to turn to the left. So I need to be able to open up that space. So you can see that through the posture pictures. Um, and then whenever they do their squats, split squats, toe touch and a load propulsion test, which is just like a knee pickup. You can see where they're lacking there. So if a kid side bends on a load propulsion test, you know, he's lacking, uh, internal rotation on that side. Um, or if his knee kicks out, it's he's lacking hip flexion. So you can kind of get an idea through the movement tests. Um, and then the big one that we also use, if we have them hop on our force plates, we have Hawkins force plates, and we have them do a vertical jump and a rebound, multi rebound. And this will show where they're at in space too, because it shows their force development, how they're applying the force, how they're absorbing the force, and what, basically what side they're favoring. Um, so if you see a narrow, and they go on the force plate, and they basically don't get an unweight on that left side, and then all their force is through the right side, you know that whenever they're standing relaxed, that they're probably in that last compensation that narrows go into of smushing down on the right side.

Ryan Patrick: 10:24

Okay. There's a lot of pieces at play here and the, I want to dive in on the ISA because I see a lot of people talking about this, right? Everyone became like, really privy to the ISA. It's been around for a long, long time. I think there's some therapists in the twenties or thirties or even alluding to these things. But it's not really the place to put all the eggs in the basket. Is it? No. Okay. Would you, would you care to elaborate on that a little bit? Because I know a lot of people hearing this have been like, oh, the, I say, they're wide, they're narrow. And this is like, That's kind of it, but you've already talked about this progression of compensatory patterns. Where does the ISA lead us, and then where do you see, it's falling short in your ability to actually, make some training decisions for these athletes?

JP Guerrero: 11:12

I would say it's a very small piece of the puzzle, you know, and I think it's probably the first thing to look at. Um, but a big thing you can look at with the ISA is where their compressions are and where their expansions are. So if you, so, uh, example of this is we have a, I have a hitter I work with where his Left ISA is basically completely pushed in and then his right side flares out. So you know that whenever he loads, he basically can't engage that left side and he's just going to crunch down in that left side and kick himself outside the base on the right. And that's something you can just tell by looking at the ISA is, okay, well, he doesn't have that space to acquire whatever shape or position you want him to acquire. So that's something that we need to kind of open up on that side. Um, and then, um, I would say for people to definitely not deep dive too much on the ISA and just keep it as an idea, you know, and like I said, it's a very small piece of the puzzle. It's definitely not going to tell you everything you need to know and, and, It just helps you find the, a little bit more answers than that. What you're looking for.

Ryan Patrick: 12:24

Yeah, my first exposure to the ISA was probably like, I'm like, Oh, this is great. We've got a structure. We know that structure dictates function. So I had this idea of what these people are going to do. And I've yet to meet like a really decent athlete who's. Only at like a primary compensation, right? They're usually two or three steps down the line. And so all this stuff fell apart for me really quick. But I think that's, I think that's incredibly valuable. Now I want to come back to this, but I also want to first touch on, uh, the technology you guys are using, because when I think baseball, I think of like money ball statistics,, there's all these high speed cameras. You've got radar guns that are tracking spin, right? Like it is a data driven technology. Sport and you guys are just using force plates now in my area locally We've got these pitching programs that are using all these high speed cameras on what I feel like are fairly Young athletes that probably don't really need to be worrying about some of this stuff. So for you guys, uh How is this playing into your decision making and then what do you feel like is just noise? And, and I guess from a bigger perspective, how are you selling this to your athletes? Like, Hey, we're not going to worry about a lot of this stuff. We're going to do these movement things, and they're there to get some more VLO. So I know it's a complicated question, but it's like, how are you integrating all this and really packaging what you guys are doing as being different than some of these, technology driven programs out there.

JP Guerrero: 13:50

So big technology we use is, uh, we use a lot of velocity based training. Um, we use the Hawkins force plates and then we use the, um, like the timing gates you'd use to test thirties and 10 yard sprints. Um, and then when they're throwing or hitting, you know, the typical hit tracks, pocket radar, and occasional trackman, right. Um, For the lifting portions, I would say they're very good environmental constraint. So you put a kid on a squat bar and now you put a, uh, you put their phone in front of them with the, with the VBT on the bar and you're like, Hey, I want you to load up this bar where this speed is at 0. 75 meters per second and you have to try to keep it above that number every time. Now that's something that they can compete with and you know as athletes all we want to do is compete So I feel that if I put 315 pounds on my back and you told me okay You got three sets of five a back squat. Okay. Well, let me just rep out these five five reps There's no intensity in it, you know, I might lose interest versus you do the same thing Hey, you have a three by five, but you have to beat this number every time So now I have that environmental constraint in my head where I'm really going to push myself to obtain that number, go over that number every time, um, in terms of what I think is a little bit of eyewash. I think we get a little ahead of ourselves with the baseball, um, and, and every technology that we use, I think a simple pocket radar definitely does the job. Um, and then if you're really trying to get in depth and advanced with, you know, if you're working on pitch shape or, you know, Um, you know, you're trying to, um, increase your spin rate, you know, the stuff that's very advanced statistics, then you can go with a track man. But I think a simple, you know, training program with a, uh, throwing program where you mix in a pocket radar every day to, you know, see where you're at. Um, and, and one way we do it is we'll have a throwing program and we'll tell a guy, okay, you're off the mound today, but I want your VLO to be 80 to 84. And now they have to sit within that. And then, you know, it's more than hopping on a mound or just throwing as hard as you can every day, you know, or always trying to PR on a, on a VLO. You know, I think there's bigger things than that. And you can get those VLO gains without chasing them every single day.

Ryan Patrick: 16:19

Let me ask you guys a question. Do you, do you have your guys throw pins at your facility?

JP Guerrero: 16:24

Most of them do. Um, I would say most of our pitchers do. Um, we'll occasionally put them on a track man, but it's, it's usually, you know, we have them on a pocket radar and, and like I said, we're just using it more as a constraint than really trying to ramp up and test where they're at unless, unless that's what the goal is for that day. Okay.

Ryan Patrick: 16:45

Cause that's, that's, this is a vast difference in what we do at our facility. So I'm a little curious about this because our guys are not throwing anything. So sometimes they're coming in. I'm sure you guys, you have. Athletes that maybe have other pitching coaches or obviously they're traveling for tournaments. How are you managing some of that extracurricular stress that they're getting with what you guys are trying to accomplish with them?

JP Guerrero: 17:11

We have, so me personally, I have my kids and they have a, um, basically like throwing notes sheet in their program. Um, so it helps me track. So if a kid comes in and he's like, Hey, I'm a long toss 350 feet today. And then I go into his program and I'm like, well, you threw three innings yesterday in a game. So now that tells me like, okay, well, we need to tone that down a little bit. Or, Hey, I met with my pitching coach yesterday. I want to throw a bullpen today because my bullpen yesterday didn't go well. So trying to get them to understand, like. Well, you need to have a goal and you need to stick to the plan instead of, okay, I had a bad day yesterday. Let me go in today and throw another bullpen and just hope that it will be better than it was yesterday. Um, and helping them understand, like you're going to have bad days, you know, and it's better to just stick to the plan and keep building then, then chase that good day that you're really looking for all the time.

Ryan Patrick: 18:10

Yeah, for sure. And as another question to some of these, um, constraints here. You're talking about like velocity based training, driving this motor output very high. And one of the areas that I think becomes challenging is, anytime I'm ramping that motor output or I'm using, bilateral sagittal plane types of exercises, I'm thinking about, we're probably going to be driving some level of compression. Totally fine. Absolutely necessary. But I also have to get athletes to play on the other side of the fence where, Hey, if we're trying to reacquire, you know, certain ranges of motion or get a left scap to open up, we've got to implement some of these other activities. So you've got athletes who come in, who are pretty squished again, getting down on that right side. They're not able to, really get off and push left. How are you balancing these two sides of the same coin to make sure that they're still progressing in the ways that you guys want? Cause obviously. We can't completely detrain them and unload them and, you know, who saw our way to 95 on the mound. But you've also got to manage that. So I'm just curious how you guys go about this.

JP Guerrero: 19:16

So it's definitely, um, it's probably the most challenging part of managing the interference that you kind of create while also trying to, um, make changes from the interference that they get from, from playing. And I would say it's, it's all in the rolling And the pre work. So if they execute their foam rolling properly and they help down regulate that muscle activity. Now you put them in some ground based exercises and they acquire the shapes you want and they open up that space. Um, and then as you progress through the workout, you get a look, you build an intensity. Um, and you know, you can, you can put a guy on the ground and knock out a hook line, cross connect, and then right after that, maybe do a cable chop. And right after that, now I do a step up. So I'm building up how much internal rotation I'm really applying into the ground and I'm, I'm acquiring and applying more force into the ground that now, whenever I get to that back squat, I have space that I didn't have when I came in, or I have space to move into for my deadlift that I didn't have when I came in and then. Now, after that's over, give them something small. That's just gonna kind of deregulate or unregulate that, uh, compression that just happened from, from the, you know, the deadlift of the squat, whatever. Um, and now, now I'm managing it and, and just not letting that interference go a little overboard. Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, working

Ryan Patrick: 20:42

with, I told you. Before offline that Greg did my programming for several months. And one of the things that I really took away with that, that I have come full circle on, and I guess air Cressy was the first person I really ever heard talk about using fillers, right. And back then it might've been like a low trap raise or something like that, but I've really started buying back my rest periods from. A number of my athletes and having them do some kind of repositioning between sets or some additional foam rolling or some manual tibial IR, if they need that. And it's just been huge. So I'm assuming is that a big part of what you guys are implementing when you're actually

JP Guerrero: 21:23

coaching your athletes? Of course, you know, like you got to understand the trade offs that are going to happen, you know, so if I put a SSB bar on my back, I got to create a posterior compression. Um, typically that's going to push you forward in space, you know, and now you're kind of going into those compensations a little quicker. It's very easy to put them into a, you know, you could do a reverse bear crawl. That's going to open up posterior space and that's, you're creating an active rest. Um, that's, That's helping manage those compressions and, and kind of build back that space to where you're not, um, causing more interference in themselves. Yeah.

Ryan Patrick: 22:02

Okay. So I want to talk, sequential with some of these programs. Let's say, we've got a super compressed athlete that comes in. And we're thinking about, Hey, this guy's so far in the tunnel. Maybe we've got to start with some, some late propulsion to get some untwisting, and then we're at an early and middle, just walk me through like, for a particular phase, like what's your, what's your thought process when you're trying to reverse engineer or untwist. some of these very elite throwers who just get bound up.

JP Guerrero: 22:33

So the first, the first thing is understanding the, uh, the process of it. Um, so you got to understand narrows compensation sequence, and then you got to understand why it's compensation sequence. And you're trying to reverse engineer that. Um, the other thing is the understand the phases of propulsion. So if a guy's stuck in late, I can't just throw him in middle. You know, I gotta go back. I gotta put him early. Now he's found early. Okay, now I can move towards middle and then now I can go towards late. And now I just, I have that kind of a sequence to work through. Um, and then understanding where narrows need to be in space and wides need to be in space. So narrows are going to favor more of like an early middle ish position. Uh, so that's where I'm trying to bring them back to. So I'm gonna give them probably more exercises that are going to put them in an early position versus wides. Kind of favor a little more like true middle.

Ryan Patrick: 23:32

What are some of the mistakes you've made maybe in the past, like 12 to 18 months of as you're learning these preferential zones of training, just do you have any things that stand out where you're like, Oh, like that was like, obviously I should have been doing that, but just, learning this model, I feel like for a lot of people is very complex. I know there's been a number of times where I just wanted to throw my hands up and be like, yeah, just talking, but I don't get it. I just tell everybody I'm like, I'm too much of a smooth brain to adopt this, but I think it's, it's really valuable and insightful to hear how you maybe work through some of this stuff because again, like, baseball is just such a high velocity sport and the faster things go, I think the harder it is to really understand and appreciate some of the nuances that come with this. So just, you can riff on a few, like. Blaring mistakes and what you learned from them. I think that'd be super helpful to break down.

JP Guerrero: 24:21

Biggest thing is skipping steps. You want to, you really want to rush yourself and, maybe you see a guy come in and, you're like, oh wow, we really opened up that space that we were trying to get. Let me just hammer this now. And, you know, now I'm skipping, skip steps two and three, and I'm trying to get to four, uh, because I accomplished one. And so, um, I would say that's a big one. Um, and then just keeping it simple, you know, I had, I had a history teacher in middle school that always told me with everything, you know, the KISS method of keep it simple, stupid. And I think that that applies in almost all aspects of life and, uh, especially in programming of, you don't have to be super complex to get the results you want. Um, and, and. Basically, as long as you have your goals in mind, you have your KPIs and you know what you're trying to accomplish, there's going to be a simple method. And, and, um, that, that will get you to where you want to be. That's

Ryan Patrick: 25:19

awesome. Because one of the things I can, you know, again, Greg did some of my programming. I'm not a baseball guy, but it was. Uh, think complex, but program simply, is very actionable stuff. Sure. There are a couple of positional setups that I think were complicated, but I wouldn't say they were complex. Once I figured it out, it was, it was pretty straightforward. And I would imagine, especially with the population that you guys serve, which is primarily like high school and college baseball players, where attention is Slow the capacity for it is yeah you actually need some of that stuff. You ask somebody to do some kind of diagonal set. You look over, you're like, whoa, like, their interpretation of this was really wild. So I'm sure that makes the whole process for you guys easier to actually implement some of these changes.

JP Guerrero: 26:11

Yep. And you know, the big, the big thing is, uh, if it's not broke, don't, or if it's not broke, you don't have to change it. Right? So if the diagonal set worked for you in the first program, there's no reason to, you know, go into the second program and be like, okay, well, I got the shape change I wanted with that diagonal set. Let me just. Bag it and get rid of it. And now I got to teach him a whole new exercise that he has to learn, even though it took him four weeks to really get down that diagonal set. So you're kind of just causing yourself more stress. The more you try to complicate the program. Um, and like, one thing I do is with my programs is if. We got the shape change we wanted over that month, then I'm probably only going to change three or four things in the program, you know, and it's mainly the main lift or something in the pre work, a med ball exercise, you know, their cool down, something, something very simple that won't make a major effect. And it's not something that's very complex for them to learn. Um, because like you said, with high school and college guys, I mean, I can set a guy up. Exactly where I want him. Turn around, talk to a kid, turn back around and he's in a different, completely different position. And I'm like, you're still on the same set. Like how did you mess that up? You know? So, um, definitely keeping it simple for the athletes as well as is definitely helpful.

Ryan Patrick: 27:31

That's something we've gravitated to in our facility as well, where, you know, we, we used to change a lot of exercises program to program. And I'm like, 1st of all, just from a logistics standpoint, it's a nightmare teaching a whole new set of exercises every 4 weeks. Right? And for me, that might be. They might be pretty simple variations, right? We're doing a, some kind of cable row and maybe I'd modify the stance. Did they completely forget what it is, but just having them take time to really, uh, cultivate excellence with the exercises has been very, very valuable and has slowed the process down. There's plenty of ways that we found we can manipulate stress. through rest periods or loading or, just the number of reps, even if it's something they're trying to acquire better, better motion on that, that slow the process down, simplify it, and just allow us to get the outputs we want. And at the end, level of execution, or like I said, excellence that we're looking for. Okay. So I want to talk, um, about a few tactical things, just training modalities. And one that I see you guys use is water bags. Now I followed like the 108 guys and they got, a whole water bag training program. A lot of my baseball guys will come in and grab the bag. They'll do some random rotational exercise that they found with it. And they My thought is that they probably like the feel of this for some reason, but you and I, we think about these archetypes. We think about some of the compensatory sequences and how this. Modality is actually being utilized. So I'd love for you to break down your thought process on how the water is working, how you're using it, what you're what kind of changes you're trying to drive with it. And then maybe just some of the ways that you're implementing it into the actual program.

JP Guerrero: 29:30

So I would say we definitely look at water bags, um, a lot different than, you know, You know, normal pitching coaches and, and baseball coaches, um, where I feel. As if, I mean, you'll see like Paul Skeens will put the water bag on his shoulders and get some mountain fields where he's rotating with the bag. Um, the way we use it, he's

Ryan Patrick: 29:52

got that CJ strap warmup.

JP Guerrero: 29:54

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he rips it and I, I love it. I, you know, there's obviously nothing wrong with it. There's, there's a purpose with it. Um, but the way we use it is, is more of a visual. Of your internal momentum and how you're moving the volume within your body, um, and, and propagating the waves up the body, right? So, the water bag is, we like to use it more for a linear move or to visualize for a picture of, Hey, as you go into your leg lift, like we have to get volume out of the pelvis so we can facilitate movement, right? And facilitate a rotation. So now whenever I do my water bag swing, I can see that water kind of move up the bag. And now I'm trying to keep it at the top of the bag as I drop into my load and keep the volume really up. Um, or guts, you know, we use guts a lot whenever we talk about, um, Internal movement, but, uh, so, so you're learning your linear moves with it. Whenever you're hitting, you're, you're learning that linear load. Um, and then we use a water ball as our rotational movement. So you create your left to right push that kind of sends you a left to right, you know, wave vortex wave, and you're trying to catch that in your right posterior, if you're a right handed pitcher, um, and being able to kind of visualize, okay. The wave is on the front of my foot. Okay, now it's moving towards the back of my right heel, right? So now I can see how that wave is kind of propagating through my body and how my guts are moving through As I go through my movements and then we use those in the throwing program as I use it as a Visual before they get into their throws. So if a kid's about to throw plyos and my big thing for him that day is, okay, I want you to feel like your hands are floating because the hands will replicate the guts, right? So if I create a good first move, my hands will kind of float up as I'm about to go into my, my move down the mound and the bag will kind of help them visualize that and, and see that, like I said, see that water come up to the bag and they're like, okay, I've captured that movement. Okay. Now I can go into my plows and now I'm really trying to feel the hands kind of float up and once we acquire that shape and that movement pattern, they can get it on the mound fairly easy. Cool. So

Ryan Patrick: 32:15

the bag is almost like a magnifying glass to what's happening with some of the internal dynamics, like the guts. Do you find when you're having your athletes use the bag, um, prior to doing their plyos or, or throwing, are they able to let go of some of the compression that might normally be involved in that pattern? Like, does that in and of itself teach them how to, to relax and actually open up the way that you're looking for?

JP Guerrero: 32:42

Absolutely, because they won't, they won't be able to get the, uh, the movement in the bag that they're looking for. You know, I had one kid that we were, uh, using the water ball. And so we're at step one, just trying to learn how to get them, you know, gone and, uh, get the vortex going basically of, of that first left to right push. Right. And. He has the water ball and the water is just swishing back and forth, can't get it to go in the vortex. Um, and I, you know, kept telling him like, hey, you're trying to squeeze into this position instead of letting the waves kind of move up you and letting the force into the ground and your feet create the movement. Like you're trying to squeeze yourself into a position instead of creating the movement through the ground. Um, and so they, they kind of are forced to learn how to relax and how to let. the waves move into this space, right? Or you'll be able to tell them, Hey, you can't acquire this position because you have a compression on the right posterior. Um, so now we can set them up into a ground based reset, maybe do a cable chop. And it's like, okay, we've acquired this position. Let's hop back on the mound with the bag and try to acquire it again. So you're just trying to get this sense of like flu,

Ryan Patrick: 34:01

like literally it's fluid, like fluidity to the movement. Right. Exactly. Uh, I remember, I can't remember who was the 1st person that put it out, but they were talking. I remember specifically them talking about, the golf swing and tiger woods. And it was like, there's a tiger, what is, is he's not tense throughout this movement. Like there's an initial impulse as he goes into the backswing and then there's a relaxation. And then at the end of the backswing, there's another impulse in that club starts coming the other way. And then at impact, there's another impulse. So it's all, it was almost these like kind of staccato periods of muscle contraction What I think a lot of athletes who try to force their way, which is, I totally identify with cause I'm a meathead. So I love to solve all problems with more force. Um, but, but learning to actually shut this stuff off.

JP Guerrero: 34:53

Yeah. And, and, you know, there's a, it's, it's the same thing in the swing and in the throw, you know, if you go watch a pitcher, whether they're thinking about it or not. Um, and one, one that kind of pops in my mind and is a great example is like Jacob DeGrom, Jacob DeGrom is not on the mound thinking about, okay, let me create a left to right impulse. And then that's going to send the wave up my body and my hands are going to float up and I'm going to, I should feel like I have no weight. And my body at the peak of my leg lift. And then now I create another impulse and that's going to shoot me back to the left. They're not thinking about it, but if you watch them, um, you'll, you'll see how relaxed he is at the peak of his leg lift. And we call it the unweight stage, right? Of my, My guts are up, right? So I basically have no weight on that right foot, even though it's on the ground. And now as they're about to come crashing down, I create another impulse to kind of send them back up. And that's as I moved down the mound and that's another unweight. So it's, it's a very, uh, relaxed motion. And like you said, it's, it's all fluidity. And I feel like it's a, it's a concept that a lot of coaches have adapted of Being fluid and they call it whippy, right? You'll hear pictures all the time. Like, oh, my arm doesn't feel as whippy as it should. Or, uh, you got to be more elastic with the arm. Um, all it is, is that fluidity, fluidity and letting the wave propagate properly. Right? So if, if, If the wrinkles in your shirt, I know this is going to sound crazy, but whenever you watch pictures, one thing we watch from the back view is the wrinkles in their shirt, because that's, that's the wave moving through the body, right? So I can see as he's about to throw and he's going into layback, you'll see a wave. Work across the shirt and they'll smack them in the back of the scap and you'll see it just disappear. And that's right. As the arm whips through. So if that wave doesn't propagate correctly, you'll see it kind of kick out or kick back and it kicks them in the lot. And now it's like a pushy pushy arm motion or, you know, the arm will kick through late. So being able to learn, uh, how to propagate the wave properly is, is, you know, it's, it's big.

Ryan Patrick: 37:02

And even for a guy like me, like I didn't play high level baseball, but, I think about the unweighting phase on the force plates, right? The guys who, who can do that obviously are able to get more of this elastic restitution. It's like they're pulling that slingshot back. The guys who can't unweight or just have a roughness to the data, like they're just struggling to get into position, have a really difficult time maximizing their, their outputs.

JP Guerrero: 37:33

Yeah. Um, and that's, it's a big thing that we look at on the force plates of, uh, you know, when you look at the graph, their unweight phase is, you'll see just like a huge drop, right? Um, if they can't acquire that unweight and get the guts up, then now I have to like squeeze myself into my descent. Um, and now I'm, Basically compressing myself to where that wave can't come back up. My guts are buried in my pelvis, so now I don't have as much movement. It's going to be really hard to jump whenever everything's just buried down on yourself. Yeah, it goes to shit real fast. Yeah, really quick. Really quick.

Ryan Patrick: 38:09

Okay. So, obviously, we're talking about this wave propagating. We're talking about what's ideal. Obviously, when somebody throws, they're going to have a reduction in their available movement as time, innings, number of pitches goes on. Absolutely. Due to the level of compression that they need. And so I feel when we talk about how do we restore these athletes after throwing, there's, I feel like this arm care epidemic, I feel like what most programs are doing are just throwing every internal external YTI into the bucket to hope something hits. So how are, obviously you guys have a different perspective, but how are you communicating the objectives? of an arm care program or post throwing routine to your athletes.

JP Guerrero: 38:59

So biggest thing is, um, explaining to the athletes. Your muscles aren't tight. Um, that's, you know, it's, it's the biggest thing. So trying to explain to them the twist of the arm. So as I throw, we crank back into crazy amounts of external rotation, right? And now that creates a twist through the arm. Um, and that's what gives that feeling of muscles being tight, but in reality, they're just very concentric because they're trying to Pull you back to the position that you need to be in. Right. So explaining that to them and then, um, kind of going through the process with them of, well, if we try to untwist the arm without downregulating the muscle activity. It's just going to crank back right to that space. Right? So I got it down, regulate the muscle activity, um, make my muscles kind of chill out to where whenever I do move the joints and the bones around and try to get that untwist happening, um, it can actually stick. Right. So that's, that's the biggest thing that we kind of go over with them. Um, and I think a kid goes through an arm care program with us and they think it's absolutely insane cause they're not ripping, you know, sleeper stretch. And the eyes, Y's and T's, like you said, and it's, A five pound, uh, dumbbell curl with a supinated grip, you know, and you're holding IR with the humerus, um, and they do that and they're like, Oh, wow, my elbow feels a lot better already. And I'm like, yeah, you still have three or four more exercises. Like, imagine how that's going to feel after you finish those exercises. Plus your second set. You know, and now that we untwist the arm, now we can really propagate that wave through with, you know, whether it's a plyo ball drop or a, um, we call it like a plyo slam with a head turn. And now we're moving into space that we just opened. Um, and I'm really untwisting the arm and now they feel better than they did before they threw, you know, and they're able to come in the next day and still throw at a high level, um, and, and keep executing that throwing program and, and just keeping that arm pain at a, at a very minimal.

Ryan Patrick: 41:00

Yeah, we've done

JP Guerrero: 41:01

some

Ryan Patrick: 41:01

of the, humoral IR, forearm ER, modified, tape press. And I always apologize to my guys. I'm like, I'm really sorry I don't have a two and a half pound weight. five is the minimum. Five is all we got and you can just watch them like just sweat with it They're like, oh my god, like this is so hard. We're like shaking But I love it, but it works. It's so effective I think that's but anyway I think it's valuable because Bill's talked about it numerous times like there are these twists that happen I think he's probably right. It's hard sometimes visually to see but Can't always trust our eyes, but you can see this represented in some of the ranges of motion that they have some of the, uh, you know, magnified ranges as well. Some of the ones that are at a complete loss and you don't really gain much headways until you can regulate down, regulate that muscle activity. And I just don't think kids sometimes get a sense of how much tone, um, is just,, hanging on after the fact, they feel cool, they're chilled out, but it's still like, everything's just.

JP Guerrero: 42:05

Absolutely. And I feel like they also like, you know, they also don't understand because They haven't been given that info or that knowledge yet, you know, I remember my post throwing program in college was, you know, I throw a 30 pitch bullpen and my arm is now hanging and I go and I just Crank some sleeper stretches crank some I's Y's and T's while making Concentric muscles more concentric. So I'm just squeezing myself on a space that I'm already squeezed on like I I can't recover like that, you know, and, and I just think that that knowledge and, um, info needs to kind of be out there more. I, I wish I had a post throwing program, like how we do here, you know, and then there's so many different variations that you could do. You know, if you can't execute the five pound dumbbell, you can grab a thin band and do that same curl. You know, if you can't do a tape press, you can do a cable pushdown. Um, so there's just so many variations and options you have that. I mean, I, I wouldn't say it's foolproof, but it's, it's as close as you can get in a post throwing program of being foolproof, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Patrick: 43:17

It's pretty awesome. You guys are doing up there. So, man, I appreciate you coming on and like, just sharing some of your knowledge, sharing your experience with what you're doing, because, um, I follow a lot of your guys social posts. So if you're listening to this, following the strength house, following JP, Um, there's a ton of good information and it's definitely a different perspective, but, we've had a lot of success using, uh, some variation of this model that you guys are applying. But you've, kudos to you guys. You just feel like you've done it at a really high level and that's hard to find. I think the prevailing stance for most people is, Okay. In theory, I get this, but how do I actually implement this into a comprehensive training program?

JP Guerrero: 43:55

Absolutely. Yeah. I appreciate, I appreciate that, man. Um, you know, and, and the big thing is, Is, is being able to mix it, you know, and, and it's, it's like cooking. You need a little bit of everything, right? So not, I feel like, especially with player performance, you do need some of those high output exercises. Um, but like you said, there's compressions that are going to happen. There's compensations that are going to occur. I need to be able to, to manage those. And that's where I feel like the model and the ground based exercises really help out. Absolutely, man. All right. So, uh, what's next for JP? Uh, right now, man, I'm, I'm currently working on, uh, obtaining my CSCS certification, that way I can officially claim the strength coach title, um, and then

Ryan Patrick: 44:45

it's such like easy knowledge compared to what you're talking about.

JP Guerrero: 44:48

Yeah. You know, the model has definitely helped out with a little bit of the studying. Um, the hard part is the parts that kind of contradict each other. Um, But that's definitely, uh, next for me. And then, uh, probably obtaining a master's and then, you know, working at the strength house for the time being, you know, there's no better place. We call it the barn, uh, Northeast baseball. It's a club baseball program up here. I think top program in new England. Um, but you know, the barn is one of the best places on earth and there's no place I'd rather be.

Ryan Patrick: 45:23

That's awesome, man. Well, you're off to a really. Uh, high velocity start to your career. So kudos. Thanks for coming on today and, tell my listeners where we can find out more about you online.

JP Guerrero: 45:33

Best places is definitely Instagram. My Instagram is a JP underscore Guerrero underscore TSH. Um, I got some videos on there, uh, some posts that guys can look at and got a pre and post throw arm care, uh, that, you know, those definitely help out. And, you know, anybody can. I'm always open for questions and people reaching out for help. Absolutely, man.

Ryan Patrick: 45:56

I'll make sure I tag that. And, uh, again, thanks for coming on, man. This was a huge honor and I appreciate you carving the time. Yeah. I appreciate you having me on

JP Guerrero: 46:04

man. It's been a pleasure. All right. Take care. Yeah, you too.