Are Coaches Killing Creativity in Athletes? with Joel Smith Ep 57

In this episode, Coach Ryan Patrick sits down with Joel Smith to break down what athleticism actually means—and why modern training often misses the mark.

From over-structured youth sports to the loss of rhythm, creativity, and autonomy, this conversation challenges conventional strength and conditioning and offers a more integrated approach to developing real athletes.

Inside this podcast:

•  Why strength ≠ athleticism 
•  The role of play, rhythm, and environment in performance 
•  How over-coaching is limiting athlete development 
•  Why early specialization can backfire 
•  The difference between training outputs vs training transfer
•  Practical ways to integrate rhythm and movement variability

Connect with Joel Smith

•  https://www.just-fly-sports.com
• Just Fly Performance Podcast 
•  @justflysports

Connect with Coach Ryan Patrick

•  @coachryanpatrick 

Transcript

Joel Smith 0:00

Strength and conditioning, there's the kind of the boredom aspects of, of just over heavy handed robotic not asking questions. Yep. And, and not even seeking transfer, honestly. And then also then you add on, well you lose stuff when you don't play games anymore. You don't have gamification of some level.

M-2-peakfast 0:21

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Ryan Patrick 1:39

this and, and tell you guys a little bit more. But, um, I just wanna get right into this. So, Joel, welcome. Um, this is a huge honor for me. Followed your podcast for years on end. I mean, how many years, how long have you been running this now? You're on what episode? Like 500?

Joel Smith 1:54

Uh, almost. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I always track it with, my daughter will be 10 in July, and I started it about two months before she was born. So yeah, it'll be 10 years in, um, I guess May or something like that.

Ryan Patrick 2:07

Yeah. That's amazing. Not just the longevity, but the, the task of podcasting way back then mm-hmm. Compared to now had to be so massively different, but, um, I feel like your reputation precedes you, but for those who don't know, give us the quick origin story, intro background on you and, and we'll kind of jump in here.

Joel Smith 2:26

Sure. Yeah. So yeah, podcast has been, yeah, 10 years running and, uh, what led up to that was a career in strength and conditioning, track and field, um, athletic background of basketball, uh, and then track jumping events. So speed, power, hurdles, uh, javelin, all that stuff. Although, uh, to be honest, I feel like I'm kind of a very intermediate twitch guy who did those power events. I mean, I jumped into 5K once and broke 20, and I'm like, I don't think a lot of people who are truly fast could do that. Yeah. So it's, uh, but in that sense it's been part of the journey, um, of, of just trying to squeak more out of an engine that, you know, has, has some balance to it and it's good qualities, but maybe has lacked some others. Um. So, yeah, I have the typical sports science degrees, have spent time coaching track on club high school and uh, college level, and then strength and conditioning ranging from youth. And honestly, I would count my own kids just playing games. I count playing games in the living room as strength and conditioning. In a sense. It's all human performance all the way up to, uh, Olympic athletes and then masters. Uh, a lot of online masters now these days. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I've had, uh, then youth sports as well, uh, and, and kind of ecological dynamics and how we learn and how we learn skills and what makes an athlete. Um, that's been a big part of it as well. So probably to sum it up is kind of a large, just shotgun of a lot of stuff. Uh, would, would be to put it one way. Uh, yeah. And, and I'm en I'm enjoying where I'm at. I'm in the private, fully on private sector mode now. I, I run my own business now after working at, uh, Cal was my last stop, uh, as a strength coach.

Ryan Patrick 4:08

I was wondering how you went from Cal to Cincinnati.'cause that's not a, it's not a trip a lot of people are gonna make.

Joel Smith 4:13

Nope. I was looking at, well, it's funny'cause yeah, the, the business had got to the point where I could validate leaving and, and mm-hmm. I was like, oh, well if I am have my own online business, I can go wherever. So I was looking at Utah and Colorado and, because we would go on a trip to Colorado Springs, the swim team at Cal every year, and it was beautiful there and it's so inspiring outta the mountains. And I'm like, man, why don't I, and then, so I was, I was almost gonna take a trip to a gym in Utah that, it's like the Utah Valley I had, man, I had never been, it's amazing there. And I was like looking at contracting outta that gym and then doing my online thing and then COVID hit and I had to cancel that trip. And then, which kind of, in the middle of COVID, I still decided to leave, but I was a little shaky on, well, you know, everything, sales and all that stuff. And so. I just played it safe. And my wife has family in Cincinnati and I went to college in southwest Ohio. And, you know, it was, I, I coached at Wilmington College, not far from here.

Ryan Patrick 5:16

Okay.

Joel Smith 5:16

And so it was a familiar place. It was kind of one of those things where I think if you're constantly looking at life that's constantly expanding and growing, it's like, oh, the next big thing, I'm gonna live in the mountains and have a training facility. It's like life said, Nope. And honestly, it was definitely for the best because the learning curve of being completely on my own has been pretty, I wouldn't say it's super steep, but it's been enough that I appreciate the softer landing of, you know, Cincinnati area family around. It's, it's, mm-hmm. It's been, it's honestly been really good. I, I, I'm outside of not having mountains or ocean to look at. I, I'm, I'm pretty happy to be here.

Ryan Patrick 5:52

Yeah. If you got kids, man, family is essential. Yeah. I lived in Colorado for grad school. Uh, I was in Fort Collins, so about two hours north of Colorado Springs. But one of my best friends. From school lives in the springs now. And I mean, it's, it's so gorgeous out there. And when I moved back I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I, like, I could walk out my front door and there were mountains, I could just go climb. Yeah. But the flip side of it is like, I really don't wanna be an endurance athlete. And everyone seems to love that here, so I gotta find,

Joel Smith 6:18

yeah. Yeah. And Colorado Springs, there's that incline. Have you heard of that? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I did that once after just flying in the day before. And the assistant swim coaches at Cal were all about it, like beating each other and, you know, swimmers, I mean, their aerobic systems really well developed. And so for them that's a, a big deal. And I, I just did it, man. It was crazy. I, I, I mean there's people just going up and down that thing. Yeah, you're right. Like the aerobic, the dedication to like aerobic sports has definitely gotta be on another level there.

Ryan Patrick 6:52

Yeah, I felt outta place. Um, but anyway, man, like your background, you're like that dude who knows how much knowledge you've learned and forgotten and relearned from the guests you've had'cause you've had some amazing guests. Um, but I kind of wanna, I, I definitely wanna dive into this athleticism piece and I think part of this is my own background because I, I call myself a recovering beat head played sports growing up, and then you kind of get to this place where it's like rec sports or strength sports. And I think a lot of guys fall into the power lifting, Olympic lifting, strong man type of training. Seems to be a little bit of a renaissance these days with people training like athletes. But, um, you know, at least in the US I feel like there's always been this bias on strength top end force production in physical prep and. I, I think a lot of coaches could just benefit from like, picking up a new sport or moving athletically again, because I think they're missing so much. Um, the difference of playing a sport and hitting like a bunch of hard decels in a, in a basketball game versus training. It is wild if you haven't done it in a minute. And so, you know, I appreciate your thought and how you think about training because you're definitely like, you're an athlete first. Um, and I, I think a lot of guys are maybe the opposite. They're kind of a coach, trying to think like an athlete. So, you know, to kind of wrap this up into a neat question, um, when you talk about athleticism, what do you think we're like as coaches? We're still misunderstanding at just like a very fundamental level.

Joel Smith 8:28

Yeah. It's a good question. Um, I think if it was one word I would have to use to describe it, it would just be integration in the sense that we live in a world of very separate experts and you would think sometimes, well, what's the difference between an athlete coming up now and like a Michael Jordan and Alan Iversson of Hale, like all these greats of the past. Mm-hmm. Our pistol, Pete Merovich. I like studying these guys.

Ryan Patrick 8:54

Yeah.

Joel Smith 8:55

Because they didn't have skills coaches. They didn't have a sports trainer or anything like that. And a lot of the game is environmental and figuring it out yourself. Uh, I'll throw Bo Jackson in there as well. They, Bo's story is awesome. Like he has really like, kind of a difficult child and then, but there's stories of him like, you know, uh, leaping ditches in a single bound and stuff like that. So with all that, I think the thing that's been lost is the intuition and autonomy of the athlete. Mm-hmm. Like that starts with a love for movement in the sport. So you start with that and you also have boredom, which we don't have anymore. I mean, we were just talking about a little bit before we pushed a record like snow day. Mm-hmm. And then I was talking about my kids, like the, some have with the router and the tv, Roku, and then they don't get tv. Not that I give'em a lot anyways, but like when they're bored and they know there's no digital outlet, the intuition and make do it you. And I mean, it's just, it just spikes so hard. And we just live in this world where we are really deprived of intuition and make do, kids are always scheduled and they also just don't have as much space to really explore the sport in their own way.

Ryan Patrick 10:09

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 10:09

And so it's, and I, I think a lot about, you mentioned like the strength coach or a coach and an athlete. And I had a really hard time when I actually first got into strength and conditioning because I was, uh, sports medicine for two years, athletic training, which, uh, right rare. Very quickly I realized I did not want to do that. Um, and I, but I, I never had a strength coach in high school or you, our college didn't have one either, and so I'm like, I, I didn't know much about strength and conditioning outside of a few coaches I had talked with who complained about working 70 hours a week and making like 25 or 30,000. I was like, what is this? And

Ryan Patrick 10:46

yeah.

Joel Smith 10:47

You know, and I mean, this was back in the early ohs, um, but even my first internships. It really struck me after myself as an athlete from basically ages 11, dragging my dad's weights up to my room or going training in the basement and just trying to read the Kmart manual and figure this stuff out.

Ryan Patrick 11:06

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 11:06

And like buying every jump program and then having those like big aha moments. Wow. That really worked. And going through it all really for 10 years, to be honest, before I even set foot in a, a real weight room. And then honestly, being really disappointed in my experience, um, just because what I experienced was very robotic, heavy handed controlling was more about the, uh, air quotes culture, like kind of the expectation that kinda like, oh, we're gonna work hard and we're gonna be super disciplined. It's on the whistle and don't mess around. And, and I was, there was some, I couldn't have put my finger on why.

Ryan Patrick 11:43

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 11:43

I didn't like it, but I was really disappointed and I think a lot of it was, I didn't see. I, I suppose if you wanna get a tangible thing now, like for example, they would test out twice a semester. You tested your sprints and jumps at the beginning and then all the way to the end.

Ryan Patrick 12:01

Yep.

Joel Smith 12:01

But it was more of formality. It really didn't matter what you could tell what mattered was just that the strength coach sought compliance, really beat the crap outta the athletes from a just, just work. Not even quality, but just work.

Ryan Patrick 12:14

Yep.

Joel Smith 12:14

And I was like, this is so far, so far from what I've experienced as an athlete myself on every level from innovation, creativity, autonomy, dynamic correspondence, and transfer. Like there's none of that stuff here. And I was hoping the next internship I had would be better. But I walked in the weight room and it was pretty much the same thing. I remember it very clear as day this women's soccer team comes in, there's a strength coach who honestly doesn't look like an athlete at all. Mm-hmm. And you know, these girls are doing push jerks with a dumbbell. And I just asked the coach,'cause I, they were doing it. The instruction was push, do a push jerk and keep your feet on the floor. You know, it's a very, that's one way of doing a push jerk where it's a technic, it's a technical right in for lifting. It's not nothing to do with being an athlete. And so I asked the coach, I said, well, why don't they, why aren't they allowed to move their feet? Like get a little mini stomp or a little twitch of the feet? Isn't that more athletic? And the coach has just said, well, that's just how we're doing it. Very gruff. Didn't wanna, uh, you know, didn't wanna entertain any questions about her program. And I think those two experiences, it was at that point where I would pick, do I wanna be a track coach or a strength coach, basically?'cause my grad school advisors like, well, you have to pick between one. And because you, you, you can't kind of weight in both. You have to really pick one. And I, I'm like, I strike conditioning my experiences. What actual SNC is has been really kind of boring. So I'm gonna do track. And, but the funny thing,'cause track had been, it was always, always open like, yes, you can lift more, but did you jump higher in your jumping events? Did you run faster? Did your 400 meters get faster or Yeah. Yeah. All those things. So you're always tying whatever you're doing to the dynamic correspondence and it's a must. And I think I really like that. Uh, funny enough, the technical side of track was not an interest of mine at all early on. Mm-hmm. And I, I imagine we'll probably get to some of that, like speed training and a dium bar and all that. I had almost no interest in the technical aspects of my events even. It was all just intuitive athlete, like basically just, just trying to athlete, athlete my way through it. And I think for what it's worth, I, I did decently, but I also was rewarded by a torn, uh, on collateral ligament throwing javelin from probably not being enough into the technique and not being coach up in it. And I, my triple drop, I always wrecked my right foot. Part of that's'cause being pulled down on my right side, bill Hartman's stuff. Mm-hmm. Yep. You know, but, but later on in my career, as I started to write more and, and move through things, the technique really became more alive to me. So just all this to come full circle into athleticism, being an athlete and a basketball player, basketball always had a very profound impact on my track and field. And I noticed that very clearly when I moved to college and all of a sudden I didn't have basketball and I'm just playing pickup with kids and going to dunk. And I, I lost a lot of pop, even though I'm lifting and I'm doing plys.

Ryan Patrick 15:13

Yeah.

Joel Smith 15:13

And so. If we, if I have the point of, okay. Strength and conditioning, there's the kind of the boredom aspects of, of just over heavy handed robotic not asking questions. Yep. And, and not even seeking transfer, honestly. And then also then you add on, well you lose stuff when you don't play games anymore. You don't have gamification of some level.

Ryan Patrick 15:33

Yep.

Joel Smith 15:34

So those two pieces have always been kind of swirling in my head as I've moved forward the last 20 years. And so I just think that the isolation, because strengthening conditioning is its own container because athletes play their sport in one place and then they go see the strength coach in another place by nature that incentivizes people who, if you're in charge of the weight room, well why are you the person who's in charge of the weight room? And you didn't decide to be the soccer or basketball coach? Well, probably because the chaos of sport was, it wasn't your jam, it wasn't the most fun thing you liked actually separating and breaking from that so you could. Get a good pump and feel strong. And those are embodied traits. Like there is something that you get from a mind to body perspective by lifting heavy weights. It is good for the mind, body, and soul. Um, however, it is not sport. And many of the best athletes actually do not like lifting heavy. Not'cause it's like they're allergic to weights. It's just not rich the way, you know, juicing someone on the court is and making creative passes. It's just not lighting up the part of your brain. And so anyways, all that to be said, I just think that the more we can at least integrate or at least expose people to, even if you're a strength coach, just coaching you sports coach 10 to 12-year-old soccer or something like that.

Ryan Patrick 16:46

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 16:47

You and really get into it. Like study the play, making study athletes, learn, study rondos or whatever it is, just a little bit. And you really start to appreciate what makes someone athletic very early on. And what that 20 something you hear, the college strength coach. Here's all the steps they did to get to this place. And it gives you more of an appreciation what they really need. And so, and then finally, I'll just say too, I think I, I think it's okay that strength and conditioning is in isolation.'cause I mean, it's better than the, the, the assistant football coach writing the program the vast majority of the time. Mm-hmm. Because I've seen a disaster strike when the sport coaches are writing the strength program and, and an utter disaster. Um, but it's just, I think if you understand the sport more, you can be more efficient because what we're incentivized is to get carried away to the nth degree in whatever our little area is. And I think that's where the athlete can. That can be not ideal because it's like every little person wants to pull you as far as they can into their system. Yeah. Versus looking at the athlete as one integrated system. So I'll leave it with that. I'm sorry. That was like a big ramble. I, I hate it with do big, I hate to do big rambles. I'm sorry. Um, but that, that's the, that was ahoo and, um, yeah. Need follow-ups. I'm happy to hear'em, uh, from you.

Ryan Patrick 18:00

Yeah. I got, I got several and, and in fairness, I gave you a very broad question, so I'm, I'm excited to see where you went with it. Uh, the guy that works for me at my gym, he's, he's a basketball guy first, and we have some pretty interesting conversations because he comes at strength training from a much different perspective than maybe a lot of the people I learned from. Right. Where we're thinking, uh, weight room and metrics first. And one of the conversations that we commonly have is kind of around a lot of what you, you said about this integration and this intuition is that the athletes in their exposure even to sport, even to the game today. It's so overly structured that we see so many athletes that lack creativity and problem solving. And you know, at the end of the day, it's like you have to come up with some kind of movement strategy that's gonna solve a problem, whether you're creating space to get open or taking space, but athletes are so robotic these days. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think it's just a symptom of like a lot of what you highlighted. I mean, I mean, do you feel like you see that, I mean I know you work with track guys, but when you're coaching younger kids, are you seeing this or, you know, are I guess a, a way to ask this are where do you see us over coaching versus just letting these athletes self-organize?

Joel Smith 19:20

So, so much of this is cultural and it starts very early. And it's also not even in some respects, a product of the immediate coaching in front of the athlete. It's, it's their parents. It's the, the, it's whatever league is all the parents are in.

Ryan Patrick 19:34

Yeah.

Joel Smith 19:35

Um. And a lot of it, I think the worst of it's legacy sports, so whatever the legacy sport is in your country. For us, it's football, it's baseball, basketball, but really in my, as I see it, really, football and baseball, those are the two that are just, I mean, I took my kid, my, my son, he started baseball for example, when he was almost six, and he loved it. He loves the gear, he loves baseball, but like the first day it's like a huge lecture on don't play in the dirt and then continue these coaches, these stressed out coaches who are way too into it and in the, in the wrong way. Not in the, like, the ecological, creative, fun learning. Mm-hmm. Not in that way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They're, they're like spending, like the whole practice, just teach the kid how to grip the bat and hit it off the tee. And I'm like, you could have spent, and while all the other kids are bored climbing the fence, you know?

Ryan Patrick 20:29

Yeah.

Joel Smith 20:30

And it's just, they're, what's happening is they're trying to water down baseball and make it playable with parent intervention for this age group. And, you know, again, I mean, kids are gonna go through that. My, my son still had a fun time, like he still enjoyed it, but compared to, so if you go to this website called Team Mojo, it gives you age appropriate, you can say ecologically appropriate learning autonomous games for every level. And if you go to 6-year-old baseball, there are so many really fun fielding games that teach hand-eye coordination early, that you don't have to coach'em up and lecture them. And I was like, I would play that the whole time with these kids. But instead it's, I, I look at it as like a richness, like how rich, if you, you just say one through 10. Like my son's baseball practices one through 10 were like a one or a two richness. Mm-hmm. Versus if you do those team mojo games, you're sitting at a eight, nine, or 10 and you're, the kids are getting really valuable skills and they don't feel like everything is being heavy handed. Even like the thing that even drives me nuts too is like, you know, constantly elbow up elbow to a 6-year-old who's not even strong enough and is gonna bring their elbow down when they hit it anyways because they're not strong. It's just so silly. And so that's again, that, I think that's a lack of asking questions and just letting kids organize. So I remember that first practice I, I texted Jeremy Frisch, if you're familiar with Jeremy. Oh yeah. And I'm like, Jeremy, what is this with baseball? And he's like, yeah. He's like, I don't put my, didn't put my kids in baseball before they were eight. For that reason. Those coaches are way too stressed out and the kids are, don't have fun. Mm-hmm. He's like, I'll just take my kids out to do home run derbies. And by the time they're eight they're fine. And he said they, they played high level or good enough level after that with no, without the need to be in that like just low richness league. And so I think a lot of it's just a lack of richness. It's, it's it's coaches feeling they need to coach and control everything and it's just not letting the athlete move and explore. And so that's why I really like, uh, the soccer league I coach at though is awesome because it's a very, it's not a legacy sport. Mm-hmm. It's very influenced by like what they're doing in Europe. Like for example, Germany. Got its butt kicked in some World Cup and it was a national disgrace, and then they came back to the drawing board. What are we doing wrong on the youth level? We would never do that here as a country. I think it's hilarious,

Ryan Patrick 22:40

right?

Joel Smith 22:40

And so they're like, oh, well let's do, instead of two goals, one each side, let's do four goals. So the young kids have more options and it encourages distribution and passing from an early age, and we don't even have to coach it. That's awesome. And then it's just so, so that's the cultural thing, is not setting things up so kids can be incentivized to figure it out themselves. And that's just the thing too, is sometimes kids just aren't ready. We rush kids to places earlier than they need to be. For example, I did the four goal activity with a 7-year-old, some six year olds this year in soccer. And most of those kids are not ready for that. They just don't have the vision yet. And so, mm-hmm. But so it's like learning to see where an athlete's at, what they're capable of, then giving them the freedom to figure it out themselves. And, and like boredom. None of those exist in culture anymore. It's like everything has to be coached, everything's scripted. And if you're lucky you have some brothers or something or sisters or local kids you play with, occasionally we're, but still it's, it's not close to what used to have and it's just like, and it's that way, all the way up. And it's also that way, it's strength and conditioning all the way up. Mm-hmm. And that's another, a gripe I have about s and c that I think, you know, some kids it's fine, but I think a lot of kids, it's not ideal. Um, so yeah, it's just that lack of autonomous creative movement. And it's not just sport, it's also strength. And so I know, I imagine a lot of people in listening to this are more on the strength side, but I, I'd think it runs all the way around.

Ryan Patrick 24:03

Yeah, I've had so many parents reach out with a seven, 8-year-old, you know, they're elite at their level. Oh yeah, they want training. I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, maybe they just need to take a nap or like put'em martial arts. Like, it's just anything like they do, they, they do not need this. And second of all, like my, my environment, because you know, we do a semi-private, like it's intentionally for those older athletes, you know, once they can start to get into a little bit more structure. So, question, question I have kind of follow up to this. You know, my son is 10 now, and, and he had friends at eight, nine years old already on these travel teams. Mm-hmm. Some of my friends have kids and, and I'm not throwing shade at them'cause I mean, I'll be honest, my friend's got a son that plays soccer who's way more skilled at his age than than I ever was. I mean, the skillset that they have,'cause they've had to ball their feet forever. But do you think it's possible. For these kids who go through these really rich learning environments and more of a patient understanding to eventually eclipse the kids, uh, athletically who are, are getting a lot of this training early on. Because one of the, the problems that I see, and I'm kind of speaking as a parent here, not a coach. Sure. One of the challenges that I see is these kids who show more dedication early on and start to break away with some sports specific skills early, tend to get more attention. Mm-hmm. They get on the higher teams, they just get this better coaching all the way up, but I think. You And I know, like in the end, they might have, they might plateau at some point. Mm-hmm. So I guess what's have, how have you seen this development take place over, uh, like a time span of an athlete? Do they, do we eventually catch up? Just kind of how does this play out?

Joel Smith 25:49

Yeah, that's a good question. I'll, I'll preface by saying my oldest is nine, you know, so a lot of it's just me, you know, it's, it's what I see and mm-hmm. It's what I know from conversations with folks like Jeremy and Raf Kelly is a big one too. Um, yeah. You know, we all move, play and, and like a very, um, embodied approach to fitness, meaning not just like weightlifting, but what does an activity give you mentally and emotionally? Like jujitsu gives you a sense of confidence and also connection. Mm-hmm. And so there's different like. There's different things each movement practice gives you. And where I've kinda landed, at least with my, this is just from my own experience with my own kids. And yeah. I would also say very likely advice, like if, like, if a parent had a gifted 10 or 11-year-old, it's like, okay, look, we gotta do travel. Like everyone else is doing travel. Yeah. And there's different levels of travel. Um, I think that to me, my first option is to look beyond just the main sports. So usually it's like, okay, we got basketball, we got soccer, we got baseball, we got football, flag football, and all these things. And also, so early on looking into, like you said, martial arts.

Ryan Patrick 27:00

Yep.

Joel Smith 27:00

Uh, looking into like ninja rock climbing

Ryan Patrick 27:03

Yes.

Joel Smith 27:04

Parkour, those things. I, I mean it's unbelievable to me how good of a mover you have to be. Like world chase tag. If you've ever seen world chase tag. Unbelievable agility. Yes, yes. Unbelievable agility. To me it's like, and, and, and this might be a fun experience. This just kind of hit me. It'd be actually good for parents to be like, okay, you want your kid to be good at agility. Here's all the sports that really build agility, flag football.

Ryan Patrick 27:27

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 27:28

World chase tag type stuff, park core, just playing tag. Mm-hmm. Um, which I do that to warm up for soccer.'cause you could play soccer as a young athlete, like sub 10 and really not develop agility that much because

Ryan Patrick 27:40

Yeah.

Joel Smith 27:41

You know, it's just passing in the ball and you try to follow the ball. Basketball Yes. You have to be good enough at dribbling first that you, there's, there's a few checks you have to get, but flag football from day one. You will get good at agility and, and that's why I love flag football early on. But honestly even like, like look, if you're a play basketball and you want to be really fast on the court, you should probably play flag and soccer as long as you can. Mm-hmm. Because at some point when you do break from those, it will give you a gift that you could not get anywhere else. You could not even get, and that's just the thing too, as I talk about like the sectioning off, it's like, yeah, like it's great. Like if someone comes to me and they want to get faster and, and better deceleration or better cutting, you know, I, I'm happy to work with them. I want to give them the best experience I can, but even the best I can offer is not gonna be as good as what they would get if they like played or didn't play like flag football or something like that.

Ryan Patrick 28:31

Yeah,

Joel Smith 28:31

like just running kids. I, I coached flag football this last year and, which was kind of tough for me'cause I didn't actually play football. But like just having kids run through a gauntlet, you just line up cones and one kid's on one side, the flag pulls on one side and you gotta get through the flag puller, the moves and jus these little kids are busting out are so much beyond like a cone change of direction drill. I see. With older athletes, they already have it in their system and even, um. I forget his name. U Eugene Bosman, I think is his name. He's like a, a rugby guy. He might be solid African, but he just talked about the culture of like rugby and these change of direction sports. And the little kids are watching the, the older athletes and they're mirroring their dukes.

Ryan Patrick 29:09

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 29:10

You cannot teach any of that stuff. It is environmental and it is cultural and you just have to be immersed in it. So that's what I'll just say one level, it's almost like if we could section off, okay. Agility, jumping ability, volleyball. Yeah. Basketball. Um, and then you have just speed, hopefully you're doing track. And then football, flag football again. Um, total like general lower body utilization, soccer, being able to use your body as a lever. Judo and martial arts and stuff like, so you could kind of, if you wanna say build the ultimate athlete, if you had each of these tracks, if you looked at like almost a video game where you level up and all these things. If you had all these tracks and you maxed those out and then you worried about it. I that if, if I'm looking at, you know, being the best athlete you can be for, for one sport as the young goal, yes. But then there's another frame of mind if we took the college scholarship thing totally out of this

Ryan Patrick 30:04

Yeah.

Joel Smith 30:05

That didn't exist. Now it's almost like, well now we're doing sport because we just wanna love it. It's, it's not as much, oh, my kids going here. And, and that's great. You know, if your kid makes D one or whatever, or even D three. Yeah. Like, that's awesome. I, I mean, honestly, I, if my kid's playing college, you know, or they don't, it's fine. But I know I'll be proud of it too. Of course. Who wouldn't? Right? Like

Ryan Patrick 30:27

Yeah.

Joel Smith 30:27

But if we took that college scholarship just totally outta the equation.

Ryan Patrick 30:32

Yep.

Joel Smith 30:32

And, and heck, even I, I'm not saying we shouldn't do this, but let's just say for a thought expert, you even took varsity high school sports outta the equation. Well now what do you have? Well, you have things that your kids enjoy that you generally enjoy and you're gonna probably do for the rest of your life, you know? Mm-hmm. And hopefully that's like, and that's just the thing is. It'd be nice if we all played sports. Like I was just talking to my buddy in the sauna last night, you know, he was at doing a Sunday night basketball league and he's like 38, but it's like it's so hard to get guys out for Sunday night basketball and it was su Saturday morning, but their gym time got taken.

Ryan Patrick 31:07

Yeah.

Joel Smith 31:07

It's not easy to get out and play sports and that sucks. Like that is an unfortunate part of what the world we live in. We should not live the world where it's this hard to get guys together to play a pickup game. Like because, because 200 years ago or whatever, you know it, everyone lived in kind of the village, right? And if you wanted to play, or even in a third world country or whatever, like where everyone's just kind of closer anyways and maybe they, they don't have to work all week, or maybe they do, I don't know. They have to work more than we do. But I mean, the ideal it would be you have free time and you're in closeup proximity that hey, let's roll the ball out and do this thing. And it's just part of life, but we don't live in that life anymore. And so there's so many things where I think we. I'm a person who just doesn't like to accept the world we're in. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, I, I refuse. I do not accept this. Um, so I just think yeah. Zooming out and kind of looking from, yes, we have the optimization track of what all these sports give you mm-hmm. That even the coach can't give you. But then we also have, well why, looking at things that you're gonna do for life. Um, so like rock climbing's, one of those things I, I expose, you know, my kids, we, um, we go to the rock climbing gym, uh, just to give them that exposure of, of a sport that's not. What everyone just tries to do to get discussion.'cause you know, you're probably gonna like doing that for life.

Ryan Patrick 32:20

Yeah.

Joel Smith 32:20

And other things, you know, parkour, whatever it is. Like, or, or, or, or martial arts. And so I think there's a lot of ways of looking at it, but I think yeah, there's that optimization route, which I think is good. And then I think there's that lifetime route, which I think is also helpful.

Ryan Patrick 32:32

Yeah. The uh, the 10 o'clock tip off for the, the men's league is not working for me. Oh yeah. I'm like, y'all, y'all like, I'm getting ready for bed at this. Like, I am not, I am not doing this at 10 o'clock. Um, I know you've had Hank crying off on your podcast before, but you know, you talk about the college thing and um, he was talking about when he trained Natalie Cuman, I think that's her name.

Joel Smith 32:53

Yeah.

Ryan Patrick 32:53

Um. And he said that, like, it was just kind of an off the cuff thing that he said, but it was such a different, uh, perspective on athletic development than we have in the United States. And he said, you know, when I got Nelly, she was, she was really young, she was about 16 and, and we didn't know how high her ceiling was gonna be. And I'm, and I just remember thinking like, man, at 16, if you're not in the, on the select team, if you're not on the top one team, if you're not varsity in all region, like, forget scholarships. Like, we are expecting these kids to be ready to go. And he's like, yeah, we got, we got a ton of time. Like she's only 16. And I don't know, just his nonchalance with that is what really stood out to me. Um, but anyway, so we're kind of dancing around some of these, I don't wanna say softer qualities, but you know, the elasticity, rhythm, body awareness.

Joel Smith 33:42

Mm-hmm.

Ryan Patrick 33:42

And I mean, admit, I am, I like data, I like measurable outputs. I like being able to quantify things and see progress. I also understand. And recognize that can be a fool's air, and especially when we're talking about overall athleticism. But I guess for you, where do these qualities, how do we blend all this together when we have, you know, this development of the athlete and these softer qualities also with, you know, the structured kind of higher outputs that we wanna see? Because I think a lot of coaches get in this place of like, well, we can't just like, you know, woo saw and feel our way to strength, but like, we also recognize just doing strength and, and adding five pounds to the bar or measuring vlo is, is maybe not the end goal.

Joel Smith 34:31

Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's, you need the data, like, but I, I guess it would be what data are you measuring and rewarding? So the ultimate data is dynamic data, so it's sprints and jumps and reactive strength and mm-hmm. If you have medicine balls or different medicine ball throw distances and outputs. Those kind of things. Uh, I actually am, uh, yeah. As much as I talk about play, my origin and I, this kind of goes into when I didn't care about technique so much. Yeah. So, yeah, for my early twenties, I really didn't care about technique that much. Um, and it was all like Charlie, Francis and Berk, Kansky and all that stuff. And, and I lived it. And I even, I was even getting the point where I had Excel sheets back in the day where I was trying to find a way to quantify everything in a weekly program. So like a high jumper or a track jumper. Mm-hmm. I was like, okay, this type of plyo counts as five, give it a score, five, this type of ply, all accounts as one, this strength item counts as this. And I was trying to kind of have these quantified weekly, and then I realized, I'm like, this just doesn't work. Because now from my perspective, now that falls apart very quickly because. The ju the two jumps you did at practice that were just like PR practice, PR level mm-hmm. That you really had to dig for That could be worth a hundred, honestly.

Ryan Patrick 35:52

Okay.

Joel Smith 35:52

It, it's just, so, it's just the, the perceptual and environmental just changed things so much. Um, and so that was a little bit of a fool's Aaron. But even now, like, I like making, um, like triathlons or pentathlon, that's my current muse is Okay. What's the top three or top five KPIs of your sport data back that. Have good relevance to your success. Okay, let's make a, let's, I like track, I like decathlons and scoring tables. Mm-hmm. So let's make a score outta that. Let's give it one to a hundred for each of those items. And you know, the higher your score, you should be better off in moving the needle towards those physical characteristics of your sport. I did that with, uh, football for example. It was a triathlon, uh, it was with a guy, Ty Le and this was at King's High School up here on the north side of Cincinnati. And it was, uh, 40 yard dash, broad jump bench press, of course football bench press. Right. You gotta have that. So,

Ryan Patrick 36:41

absolutely.

Joel Smith 36:42

They got a score. They got wristbands like Tony holler for each level that they did. And the guys improved so much. I mean, they shredded their forties and it's like. A lot of that's just, you know, environment is so big. Like we could talk about setting up the start when Ty who ran it, he didn't even coach their sprint technique either for the forties. I think he showed'em basic starting, they spent, they just spent most of their practices chasing, racing, agility drills, all that stuff. And then you have the environmental pull of, oh man, I get this wristband and here's my status and tribe. Mm-hmm. And so, um, but you have the numbers. The numbers will pull you. If you do not have data and numbers to pull you, then you're kind of playing around at the end of the day. So you, you have to have that. But then on the other side it's like, well then the, how are you moving? Because kind of like I mentioned with like the pro elite, high level players who don't necessarily love the weight room, um, they tend, I find people who tend to innately not love the weight room tend to actually be pretty good movers from like a fluid perspective, like

Ryan Patrick 37:43

mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 37:43

Body control, rhythm, timing, the, a smoothness is another big one, right? Mm-hmm.

Ryan Patrick 37:48

I

Joel Smith 37:48

found, and, and even the people who. Like, didn't love the weight room, but they lifted. I always found there was kind of a limiter where if the weight got to a certain point, they would just be like, I'm good. And, and I, I kind of always felt like they had an internal clock that kind of said maybe when they were compensating, maybe they ran out of space to move into a LA bill model or something. They just knew that, where the grinder's like, ah, screw it. I'm just gonna lift this way. You know, like those people just, they just have that internal sense of movement. And to me, the core of that all is, it's really rhythm.

Ryan Patrick 38:19

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 38:20

Uh, and, and I can go in a little bit more what I mean by that, but, uh, yeah, it's, I, but it is, it's body control, it's awareness, uh, but ultimately it's a sense of rhythm. And then that sense of rhythm can be specific to whatever your exact outcome is. So whether it's how you dribble a basketball and operate or whether you, how you run or mm-hmm. Jumping and hopping cadences. But yeah, a lot of the movement quality and smoothness is, a lot of it is a sense of internal rhythm. And that's something that's also rarely. Really, really coached or looked at in the typical weight room situation.

Ryan Patrick 38:53

Yeah. I would love for you to expand on that because I can see the deficits. Um, we do it at like a really primitive level. If I switch from, you know, like a, a skip to, um, a regular skip to a bound, to a single-sided dribble, like those different cadences and tempos can really throw a lot of kids, let alone the kids I have who can't even figure out skipping. They're, you know, the ipsi lateral same side. So I, I mean, I would love for you to, to jam on that for just a second.

Joel Smith 39:23

Yeah. So I think, like I mentioned, I think some of it is specific to what you do. Like, for example, you could have Steph Curry who, who people talk about, they listen to Steph Curry in warmups for shooting. Mm-hmm. And it's just a, the rhythm is like bounce up. It's like it's very consistent. The same rhythmic execution is gonna be very similar. And as I find the rhythm guides you, it's part of the full and body kind of not overthinking it, not really using the forebrain. Yeah. It, and in the same way I talked about the problem with sport performance, it can be very isolated. We tend to isolate skills to what, what we think about what we're doing versus what we feel about what we're doing and what we feel about what we're doing is driven by a sense of rhythm and, and you actually feel the ball. Like if you play basketball, you can feel the reverb and it's some, so it's something that really goes beyond, uh, just do it this way. Uh, but then I think if you took Steph Curry, yes, he's gonna be way better at a skips than the average Joe or James.

Ryan Patrick 40:22

Sure.

Joel Smith 40:22

But is he gonna be able to do, you know, straight leg bounce to dribbles or single leg, single leg skipping? He would probably need to practice it a bit and probably could be okay at it. But that's not his sport. Yeah. And so on a level rhythm becomes specific. To your sport. I think there is a general, like there's a general rhythm. Mm-hmm. Just kind of feeling it operating in that way, attuning yourself to that kind of mode. And then there's these little specific outcomes, whatever your actual sport execution is. And so I find to me, the most basic rhythms that are very general would be just things like hopping and, uh, Rafe Kelly. So we mentioned Rae Evolve, we play. Mm-hmm. One time on my podcast he talked about, um, African dance and drums. And Frank Forensic is really big on this too. Frank is a sociologist and a Stanford grad who's really into like, what is exercise? And he goes mm-hmm. He studied like the long living tribes and visited them. And, but so much of it is like, and I think basketball of all sports is the sport where you have a drum with you. Because it's this ball that's constantly your drum. And I just think that I, I should have mentioned that with like, okay, what do these sports give you to get to, to grow up in an environment? Think of basketball, grow up in an environment where you see athletes who are constantly going between their legs and behind back and spin moves, and you watch them and they have this sway and swagger as they're dribbling. And then the beat of that ball, you start to embody that beat and rhythm yourself. Contrast that to your only sense of this is, hey, here's a speed ladder. Just do this thing. You know, so that I, and I think, um, just, yeah, so just like a appreciation for music and hopping. And so one of the ways that I like to do that is having music on practice and just doing basic hopping and even the skipping that you can do it too. And if you go to track meets, you watch, especially college meets you and indoors where everyone hears the music, if there's warmups, you see athletes, all the A's and B's and stuff, they're all doing each of the music. It's just wired in the system. At least the good athletes who, who let the rhythm go. You got the overly cerebral people who are like, you know, they're trying to really hit their hand positions and their, their, their, their clock is just some external thing, but the good athletes are always doing it to whatever the music is for the most part. Um, and so I like, yeah, just hopping basic low level p PIOs to music. Uh, max Shank gave a good, um, he was on my podcast a long time ago and I am, I actually haven't checked out much of his stuff lately. He was really big on T Nation for a while for those people. Whot Nation.

Ryan Patrick 42:57

Yeah.

Joel Smith 42:57

And he said the ultimate like cure for elasticity is just hop for five minutes to music or dance and hop for five minutes to music. So. I think and, and with dance, it's interesting because the best dancers are not the best athletes because they have so many degrees of freedom.

Ryan Patrick 43:14

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 43:15

That they can't be strong. You know, if we talk about Bill Hartman and we talk about reciprocal and orientation, like Michael Jackson probably has zero orientations. I'm sure he doesn't have zero, but he is all reciprocal watery motion. But if that guy took a tackle, he would break in half. You know, like his raw force production is extremely low. Yeah. So it's like, well, how much rhythm do we have to have? We have to have enough. We have to have that basic sense, and then we need to tie it into whatever our specific outcome is. So I think for track athletes to have different locomotive rhythms, that's really good. Does a basketball player need those? Probably not, but maybe a few. But I think our base, our base is hopping.

Ryan Patrick 43:52

And

Joel Smith 43:53

then I also, so I do that to music and then I, I also do running, uh, I'll do for a lot of online clients. I actually noticed this, this was very interesting, is one year, its a few years ago, I really got into, I would be listening to music and I was running, I remember this kind of started one day. I, I, I had to, uh, I had to watch the kids and had to work out the same time. And I was, and so they're in the front yard and, and I had my headphones on and I was like, all right, I got the sidewalk here. And so I was running and to the beat, I was hitting my foot on the cracks, basically. So like every step four beat and I would play around with it. It was like a giant speed ladder. Really. Like sometimes I, yeah. And I did that for like 30 minutes. And then the next day, oh man, I felt so athletic. My Achilles didn't hurt. And I was like, I think I'm onto something. And so I kind of made different modulations of this and, and I started just, it just the output to clients was just cadence drunk. And it was basically just listening to music. 120 beats per minute. 110, you're gonna double it for every step. Or your left foot hits every one 10. So you're sitting at about four hertz. Yeah. Which is acting pretty fast, but I, so, but, um, it's, it's a basic hertz, and then you could also get a metronome. It's a little boring. And then you can turn that to about 2 0 5, 2 10 and every step. Uh, so I'll, I'll use that a lot of times as to Cool down from the weight room, just to kind of recalibrate.'cause it does recalibrate the body. And the thing you notice about athletes when they're doing things on a rhythm, it does screw you up because you can't run that fast down it. Because you can't open up, you can't like, swing out and open up. But if you watch an athlete, there's such a distinctive sense of timing. Everything is so connected and integrated. Mm-hmm. And I, after running that with athletes for a period of time. They were telling me like, oh, I'm playing. When I play sports, I'm better. Like, it's just the rhythms there, like something is better and more connected. And I think it's that internal, you're not necessarily think, you're not trying to run it from your forebrain so much as you have this internal sense of rhythm that

Ryan Patrick 45:51

mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 45:51

Can be connected to whatever it is that you do. And so yeah, that's, that's where two of the things that I, strategies I really like to utilize. And then a place that'll go, I wanna to try this with track in HighJump. So for HighJump, I, I've seen like synchronized HighJump or two people high jump a bar at once and they run at the same time, but mm-hmm. I was thinking about doing like, just approach runs, like where you try to mirror the person next to you and you try to fall in rhythm with them. If you watch Kenyan distance runners, their specific rhythm, they all,

Ryan Patrick 46:20

oh yeah.

Joel Smith 46:21

Same step. Step for step, for step for step. They all run kind of the same. Cadence, which is awesome. And it's like, that's another thing where I don't think they probably talk about running form very much over there. You occasionally see his videos, it's like, oh, Kenyan running form. Like some Kenyan guy goes to like some rich whites, preppy white, you know, uh, school in the US all these drills and like, oh, Kenyans just running. But I think so much of it is, yeah, I'm sure that's helpful, but I'm sure a lot of it is just environment. You're, you're falling in line with the person next to you. You're mirror feeling their energy and their rhythm and their run and you have a groove. And that teaches the thing is I think that's the core.'cause I think that base of rhythm, your body wraps itself around that and finds its own little optimals and it's, I that's a richer way of learning I think than so often what we look at the way of learning, and I think it's more innate, speaks to who we are as humans.

Ryan Patrick 47:12

Yeah. You've said, you've said a couple things that like triggered my brain's, like pulling some old files I haven't even thought about in a minute. But, um, one of them is, I remember watching. This was in graduate school. We were talking about, uh, the nervous system. And they had, I believe it was somebody with like a, a cerebral, uh, it was either a palsy or, um, Parkinson's. And they had'em do like kind of a march, right? As fast as they could, like a, I mean, you could think like an a, a run or something like that. And then they put a metronome to like 160 beats a minute, and all of a sudden, like their top speed just went up. Yeah. Like by, by an order of magnitude, you know? So the. The un like kind of no constraints, just do it as fast as you can versus keep with the music. It's like their brain instantly picked that up and found a cadence that was well beyond, you know, what they could do. And I don't know what they ever did with that data or what became meaningful of that, but it was, it, I remember being super interesting at the time. And then as, as you kind of talk, I'm thinking about, is it the Kenyon's videos where they're all doing like their A skips where it's up and out and there's like f you know, 15 rows of'em all in on sync. Like that's, I mean, we would never see that here.

Joel Smith 48:28

No, no. But it is funny'cause I think that I, I think that those videos that they do, I would wonder if you would go there. Well, I, there was somebody who sent me, somebody who traveled and trained with the Kenyans.

Ryan Patrick 48:39

Mm-hmm. The

Joel Smith 48:40

big things that I noticed from that training trip was. They're weightlifting, they do a little weightlifting, you know, dumbbells and light barbells, but it's like they do a lot of like, step aerobics to rhythm with dumbbells. Mm-hmm. They're doing like these rhythmic step aerobics with dumbbells and stuff. So there's rhythm there, and then they're running in a rhythm, but they didn't have anywhere in the video where they did like all the marching in a line. I, I almost have this sense like, that might be for show for westerners, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, like I, but I don't know. I'd have to go spend some time there. Um, yeah. I think I just so much think the core of it is just that dance drum type rhythms and then mirroring an environment, mirroring your buddies and, and that kind of thing.

Ryan Patrick 49:16

Yeah. I think a lot of it's the relaxation too.'cause we had a football guy start with us last night and, you know, I was like, look man, if there's a problem, you're just gonna solve it with more force, more extension, you're gonna lock everything up and you're just gonna grit your way through it. I mean, I'm like, how are you supposed to move and change direction if you just never, if you never have an off switch? You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. There's just no rhythm. It's just like he's Batman mode all the time.

Joel Smith 49:40

Yeah. It is, uh, something I like to do with those people sometimes is amplify the error. So to say, Hey, be even be way too forceful. Show me what way too much force feels. Like, show me what way too much jaw tension and neck tension mm-hmm. Feels like on this. And then it's like, oh, if they're, if they're willing, sometimes they're not willing. So, but I, I always find sometimes we're so unaware of how we move, we're so locked in, even now it's at 42. I was just doing, um, galloping takeoff drills with high jumpers yesterday, and I just feel myself just giving this extra orientation lock of the shoulder mm-hmm. To get myself that little extra lift at the end because I'm not getting what I want outta my foot. Yeah. I didn't find the thing I wanted outta the lower half, so I'm making up for it. And I just, that has gotten so locked in and so it's, I I didn't have time after practice. I wanted to just put music out in Gallup for a half hour, but my wife needed me to pick up stuff from the store. I had to do an Instagram post. I'm just like, oh, that's the only thing in modern life, by the way, just a, a side I really dislike is just, there's less creative time for us as coaches because of life sometimes. And I think the, the ideal is we would have an hour or two a day to just play with the movement and mm-hmm. And I think that, and I think in a very laid back situation, that would be the reality. Um, I know I, I, every time I do get time to explore, it's like, oh, this is so good. I need more. I wish I could do this more often.

Ryan Patrick 51:01

Yeah. I get, I get buried in that, that rabbit hole, right. Of, you know, do things like, we're just constantly doing things. So one of my escapes is just reading, like fantasy and sci-fi.'cause I'm like, it just takes me to a, to a far off place where I'm just thinking about different stuff and I don't know, magic systems. It just helps kind of break the mold. But, um, I, I wanna talk about Bill stuff because you and I, um. Both, both. Love Bill, I've, I've seen you integrate his stuff with speed id, we've, you've talked about it a couple times. So one of the challenges I see is that, um, many coaches are waiting in these deep rabbit holes. So you get introduced to it. Yeah. I think there's some utility and then it kind of gets to this confused complexity, right? We have a lot of, of moving parts. We're not really sure how to kind of make sense of this. And I think at the end, guys kind of come out, um, with very simple approaches, right? So it's simple in the beginning, then it's complex, and then it's simple again at the end, but it's a little more

Joel Smith 51:58

mm-hmm.

Ryan Patrick 51:59

Elegant and pragmatic. And so I guess the question I want to ask around this is, when you were getting into this, what, what problems did the movement or the model actually solve for you?

Joel Smith 52:15

Yeah. A lot of it was initially connecting the dots to stuff I had seen with Christian Thito buckets. So just very global buckets. Not not specific movements, not specific joint injury issues and injuries. But it was my, my fascination right when Christian's system came out and for those not familiar Christian had like a five bucket system on

Ryan Patrick 52:36

mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 52:36

Elastic, powerful athletes or muscular powerful athletes or elastic kind of intermediates and all this type of thing. And as soon as I saw his system and a lot of people critiqued it, they're like, oh, you can't measure brain. It was on brain neurotransmitters. You can't measure it like that and all this. But for me it's like I see this, I see a lot of this in the athletes I work with and it was like a huge light bulb went off. And a big part of that was because I was a high jumper, classical, narrow ISA elastic and

Ryan Patrick 53:04

yep.

Joel Smith 53:04

I was somebody that a lot of lifting. Really took stuff from me that really was needed to be a good high jumper. Um, and, and even stuff that people would typically say is good, like Olympic lifts and cleans. If I did too much of that, I actually didn't have the bounce. I think a lot of it, you know, if you wanna get technical, I think I just couldn't open up the back of my pelvis is good for the Olympic pole. Mm-hmm. Probably put more muscle on my back than I needed to and just didn't have that quick pop or something like that. Um, I say something like that because I think all model, all models are use are wrong, but some are useful. So I'm like, you know what? That's probably most of it. Um, so it was initially answering a lot of those questions on, well, why is a high jumper? Did this work for me or not work for me? Mm-hmm. And so that was very, very helpful initially. And then a lot of it, and then it starts to become. I, I almost look at it as how much math could you handle in school? Like I mm-hmm. I did good at basic math stuff that I could easily wrap my head around, play with numbers as soon as it got to like rules, like solid rules, like calculus, pre-calc. I was out, man, I would just start, I, my a DD got the best of me. I couldn't pay attention.

Ryan Patrick 54:11

Yep.

Joel Smith 54:11

And I mean, I got decent scores when I was tested on those items for like the GRE, but I just, but, so I have the ability to play with variables, but I just cannot pay attention when it's a certain amount of rules that I haven't heard before. Mm-hmm. And when I'm taking bill's stuff, I, I feel that a, d, d and inability to take those classes coming in pretty hard. And so I almost am unable to go down the rabbit hole to a certain level, if that makes sense. Okay. And maybe it's a blessing, I don't know, for what I do as a, as a more, as a sports performance coach, maybe it's a blessing. If I was a physical therapist and really needed to chase into that stuff, it probably would be holding me back. Um. So the, the thing that it did with the lifting, I'll say it was the lifting that was the biggest piece. And so the two ones that were just the most, the basic heuristics for me are pinched squat. And that a wide iss gonna be better at R dls. And it was funny'cause I always could deadlift a lot too. Mm-hmm. And I also have long arms and a good grip strength, like really good grip strength. And, and I was always like, man, my deadlifts way better than my squat. I can't be like, you know, I, what do you mean I can't deadlift? And then it kind of hit me. And now if I do hinges and deadlifts, I can actually feel when I run outta space, especially like I'm holding a cable in front of me. Mm-hmm. And like Aer cable in front, I'm like, oh, I ran outta space so fast there. I'm like, oh, that's makes sense. And so what's really, and to try to put as simply as possible, I understand. And see when people run outta space in a, in a movement.

Ryan Patrick 55:42

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 55:43

And when you run outta space, then what is your compensation to get the rest of the thing. And so the goal is to get the cleanest lifting experience possible for the athlete. And so for like the narrowest of narrow ISA elastic, like I have a high jumper, who is that? Mm-hmm. Like if she does a hurdle hop, she bends her knees like three degrees. Like she does not want to descend down into that at all. And especially not a forward hinge. Yeah. Um, and so she's somebody who in the weight room can very easily get destroyed by classical lifting and but of a lot of high jumpers are built like her and strength coaches don't understand that they run outta space really fast and it is not gonna help to keep pushing that square peg in the round hole there. Um, so that's, that's been a big one, is understanding space in a hinge space in a squat. Mm. Um, the wide ISA is ta taking me longer because I'm not a wide ISA, but I see it better now. I see people who are so stiff and try to drop straight down to the Squatty squad, and so putting them on like roller wall squats and stuff like that, and that's been really helpful. Um, and then the, the space you can move into from an ERI or external internal rotation perspective. Mm-hmm. That's been another really helpful thing. I know when I was growing up and learning lifting on my own, I didn't like regular deadlifts. It just didn't feel good and I learned to do it over time. Like, and it was, I mean, I eventually deadlifted 4 0 5, not that's a lot, but for a skinny high jumper, it's okay. I idea I wasn't jumping very high when I did that, I'll tell you that much. But a sumo felt way better for me and I had no idea why. And eventually I almost came to like, think it was a bad idea because, oh, it's too wide of a foot placement, it's not athletic and blah, blah, blah. And then bill's like. Chris Wst maybe was one of those two, is like, well, it's how a neuro ISA, they, they're more ER or external rotation oriented. They need to be in that ER space to leverage it. And I was like, oh. So mm-hmm.

Ryan Patrick 57:42

So

Joel Smith 57:43

basically setting people up for their predispositions. If you're more externally rotated or more internally rotated, uh, like even like oblique presses, like,

Ryan Patrick 57:53

yep,

Joel Smith 57:53

are you pressing vertically? Are you pressing on an oblique axis? Um, those things have been really, really helpful. And then probably the latest, most recent is actually even reconsidering single leg exercises for people who just are. Horrendous at internal rotation, like some of my older clients.

Ryan Patrick 58:10

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 58:10

Whereas I used to think, oh, I'll just give'em single leg stuff.'cause they're not, you know, they're stiff or something. Or they, yep. And now I'm like, oh man, they don't have internal rotation to handle this, so I'll just do like a bilateral or staggered stance. And so,

Ryan Patrick 58:22

mm-hmm. Yeah,

Joel Smith 58:23

just the biggest two have really been what can you move into narrow, being better at straight down squatty squats or vertical torso stuff. And then wides being better at hips back stuff and just seeing that in action. And then the second one is looking at the knee, you know, knees in or out, internal external rotation, what am I giving and setting an athlete up for so that they're working in a space they gen genuinely own. Mm-hmm. And when you work in a space you own, it's all good. Like it's really, yeah. It's, it's just a game changer. And then, oh, the last thing I'll just say is the mar balance, like the balance discs, I actually gain appreciation for those'cause they kind of let your foot spin into whatever, uh, range you kind of own more. On its own.'cause Marv Marinovich had talked about the balance. If you, every time you have proper receptive stuff, like newer pushups or disc, your body gets to pick where it wants to go. And I'm like, ah, no, I understand why we're doing, you know, it's not so much, it is balanced, but it's also like the body getting a little wiggle room to choose. And I really appreciate that. Almost redefine the balance. So yeah, those, those are the main things I think I've gotten from, from Bill's model that are very easy, heuristics that can apply pretty simply. But then of course there's skill in actually going in the weight room, seeing those things and who has how much range and then what do you do with it.

Ryan Patrick 59:37

Yeah. With respect to like jumping, sprinting kind of in your wheelhouse, I feel like the, uh, some of the elite performances are gonna have compensatory strategies, right? We gotta give something up so we can get more force production. So were there any like aha moments with his model that kind of helped you with sprinting or jumping

Joel Smith 59:57

Yes. That thing. Yeah. That's a great question. I'm glad you brought that up because it was the whole. People whine about anterior tilt and treat it like it's terrible, but it's, Bill's talk about you have to put force down to the ground. Being anteriorly tilted or more oriented is a shortcut to putting force down on the ground. And you start to look at all these elite track athletes, it's like, wow, they're all like this. Mm-hmm. Even, uh, you know, it's funny, even in HighJump I've, I'd even thought like,'cause HighJump is a little different than sprinting. You don't necessarily need to go forward so much as up. And I've been thinking lately like maybe that publish should be more neutral and it probably should. But then I saw Stefan home with Stefan home video where he just, he, he didn't have his shirt on, so you could very clearly see his rib cage and the, the orientations and I'm like, he's crazy. Pushed forward scissor jumping six feet 11. Like, it's just, it's just so interesting how that happens. But I'll just, I'll actually circle this into something I think is very relevant for speed that mm-hmm. Might be a good you if we can't get into everything as speed. This is a nice crossing of worlds. It's something I like to do is, and I think it's funny. If you're a team sport athlete, who cares in some level, right? But if you're a track athlete, this is awesome, as I call it, squatty to tall transition. So what you do is you run like a hundred meters and you start pretty squatted if you can. But squatty not pushing squatted, like you kind of lift your knees. It, it's a squatter around that makes you lift your knees more essentially. And you slowly, as you go through the a hundred meters, start to come up taller, taller, taller, taller, until you're literally like just ticking your ground with your feet, like you're as tall as you can get.

Ryan Patrick 1:01:28

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 1:01:29

And for me, it's like a game because the game is what is internally rotating to put force down into the ground. As I transition in the beginning, it's more the thighs and the hip bones, which you actually don't really want in top end sprinting because mm-hmm. The femur and the tibia should kind of be orienting externally rotating to put to vol from a velocity perspective.

Ryan Patrick 1:01:53

Yep.

Joel Smith 1:01:53

And the ankle and the hip are the internally rotators. The hip is dumped forward or in anteriorly oriented to help put force outta the ground. And the ankle also internally, internally rotates to put force down the ground.

Ryan Patrick 1:02:05

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 1:02:06

And the taller you go, you start to feel really that ir just happening at the ankle. Just that tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. But there's a sweet spot because you eventually get too tall and you're just like grasping at the ground. You don't even get it anymore. It's just kind of like, ha, there's no, there's no, you go from ir force production down the ground through the ankle to, I can't even put force in the ground anymore. Yeah. This is, I'm actually running too tall now. And people like to make this polarized camps like, oh, do you run tall or swatted, or whatever it is. And it's like, look, you have to find the best hip height for you to put force into the ground with the hip and the ankle and do it effectively. And that's gonna be different for each person. There's also even different ways you use the shin as a lever and all that. But

Ryan Patrick 1:02:51

yeah,

Joel Smith 1:02:52

something I got from Bill too, that I use in sprinting and it's only more advanced clients like master. Sure. People have been on track for a long time that are, if I gave that to high schoolers they'd be like, uh, I might just have'em do it just to do it, but I'm probably not gonna tell'em like, Hey, find out when your ankle bone internally rotates. And I would just say, Hey, notice when you feel the fastest. Oh cool. That felt the fastest. Alright, well I'll notice that next time. And you know, it just,'cause I think queuing just can is it's always extreme and polarized. It's like, run tall. Well, how tall? Tall. Okay. Run squatted. How squatted lift your knee? How high? Like, it's just, there's never, it's, it's always an absolute, there's never any timing or nuance to it. So that's, and, and good athletes learn that themself. But then all this to say is Bill's model least gives me, as a learner, practitioner coach, a place to play. That also I know what's happening in the body from Al perspective.

Ryan Patrick 1:03:47

Yeah. That's been one of the, the big things is just helps clarify how I explain things. So I am a wide, ISA, so one of the things that I know when I'm sprinting on like top end is it might not be as tall as some of my narrows run because I need a longer time on the ground.

Joel Smith 1:04:04

Yeah.

Ryan Patrick 1:04:04

And I work to improve that, but I can definitely feel that. And, and on the high school man, the high, the note of the high school kids, I'm sure a lot of those kids, like, I feel like they've got deaf mute feet because of the shoes they wear. So it's like, if they were to take'em off, I'm like, man, I don't even know how you move on these biscuits. Like there's sure there, there's not a lot going on here. Um, one thing I, I want to kind of bridge to speed for just, just a second. Um, I wonder with,'cause I know you've talked about torque and speed. Um, I wonder how much of it is due to this. Aggressive anterior tilt that we're almost just kind of, that pelvis has to, has to rotate just to get some extension on that backside.

Joel Smith 1:04:44

Oh, I like, like a hip extension behind the body.

Ryan Patrick 1:04:48

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 1:04:48

Yeah, that too. Yeah, I would agree. And for a wide, I say as well, a wide, I say, doesn't have as much range behind the body for that knee. So I think there's a little bit of functional adaptation there. I mean, the question is always right, like, what's too much? Are you stuck in it? Can you get out of it? Blah, blah, blah. And I think there is that. I think also there's a lot of just timing, like just global timing and making the stride work for you. Yeah. I think that's actually the bigger one in my opinion, because why do all these people cranked an anterior til don't get hurt? Like yeah, it's, it's just timing. They just run with a rhythm and they run well. As soon as that rhythm breaks or they're stressed out, then it goes over the edge. But yeah, I think there's a lot to that.

Ryan Patrick 1:05:25

Yeah. Sometimes I feel like trying to chase neutrality too much. You just. You kind of unwind people and mm-hmm. You know, they just lose a lot of what, what makes them tick? Oh yeah.

Joel Smith 1:05:36

Yeah. If I was gonna mess with it, I would just have them do like, put your hands on your hip standing and just do like, you know, the little pelvic bowl rotations. Mm-hmm. And just maybe even cat cow standing because side to side, do some hula hoops, let go run and notice what happens. Cool. Like sometimes I think just that little mobilization and a little awareness can go a long way with that stuff. And it's like the body is smarter than we are. Uh, that's always one of my main heuristics. The body's smarter than I am, so I'm gonna give an athlete something, uh, athlete's body that's smarter than me, something to go with and they'll figure it out.

Ryan Patrick 1:06:11

Yeah, man. We've covered a lot of ground. So I wanna hit you with a few questions. Um, yeah, wrap this up. We're gonna have to do another podcast at some point'cause I still got a lot of questions I we didn't even get to, so we'll hit some quick ones. Um, but obviously, I mean, you've got a lot of guests, you've been diving into the biomechanics and bill stuff. What's, what's got your interest right now? What do you, you kind of diving into?

Joel Smith 1:06:30

Yeah, I think my main area I kind of mentioned with the games is, uh, it's, it's a few things. Um, it, it is the con continual integration of games and gamification with formal. Training qualities, like for example mm-hmm. My, we had our first high jump practice yesterday and it was essentially all gamified versions of the outputs I want to get. Oh, nice. Like, for example, it was, we didn't hi jump board bars so much, we would throw a tennis ball up in the air, have someone jump and try to catch it as high as they could and jump off both legs and do that, or throw it off the backboard and jump and catch. Like, I wanted to get my plys in with something that's task based and active. And we did some plys, we did, you know, skips and gallops like I mentioned, and we did some high jump, like 1, 2, 3 rhythm drills. But trying to find that balance between gamification and then formal outputs is an area I'm continually going into and then new ways to do and learn that. And then, um, something that's been more recent has been really getting just further in the rhythm. Mm-hmm. Um, and like I even mentioned with like high jumpers, like instead of just running the curve, find a partner and run and go step for step with them because so much of that execution is. Rhythm maintenance and the flow of it. Yeah. And so yeah, finding more ways to integrate rhythm into movement itself have been two that are, are pretty substantial on my radar right now. Um, I also do find myself periodically going back to, I will say I'm, I've been getting more into that, that's like the eco side, the ecological di dynamics. Mm-hmm. To them, the meathead side's actually been getting more into flywheels in eccentrics just because Oh

Ryan Patrick 1:08:08

yeah.

Joel Smith 1:08:09

I've been, I've, I dusted off my K box, got out of the basement and been using that especially for calf raises. And, and oh man, like, yeah, I do like calcan aversion and pronation and that's great, but it's like, unless I tie it with something that's like that constant, it's almost like an isokinetic, even more than an eccentric in my vein. It's just steady. Oh, it's so good for my Achilles. So I've been playing around with a lot more kBox and flywheel and, and kind of those more even Isokinetic on the, um, the VUL Ultra, which is like that wall based unit. Oh, I meant for like my elbow stuff. I've been thinking about layering the different contraction types like Tibit os, uh, into a training program as well. Um, so that's been my more meat headed end of things, but it's been really rewarding'cause it's like I could just paint over biomechanics and then, oh, I just did some iso kinetic car crawl felt better. So, uh, that was a win,

Ryan Patrick 1:09:01

man. I'm gonna have to come sit in on practice. And I was like, I was like, I had that vulture in my shopping cart on Black Friday. I was like, you just couldn't pull, I couldn't pull the trigger.

Joel Smith 1:09:10

It's so good. I actually, I'll tell you what, I just got a demo unit. I have to give it back. So I have to make, I have to decide if I wanna pull the trigger out a new one. I mean, I love it. It is literally the best, but it is a lot of points. So,

Ryan Patrick 1:09:22

yeah, I know. Okay, you already mentioned a few athletes, but like, when you talk about, you know, the rhythm, the timing, the, the intuition, who is like the athlete you look to? So like, if we're gonna go watch film, which I think coaches should do, who, who are the guys or girls? We need to be like looking up.

Joel Smith 1:09:41

Yeah, I, I like athletes the past a lot and maybe part of that is'cause I just don't watch sports as much as I used to. Just That's right. Part of it's just, it's just a f lot of things. Um, yeah. But I, I, I will say like I'd love watching, well, I'll just say this, I think Ronaldo is a really good person, a good case study because what I mentioned with like, everyone gets this coach, like we, we take strength training to the nth degree. We're gonna max out your speed training, we're gonna max out your change of direction and then go play your sport. Ronaldo is like the epitome of someone who kind of sucks at the technique of a 30, like, you know, like mm-hmm. A track 30, not very good. I'm sure if he grew up here in the States and he had a speak coach that the 40, you know, they would drink out his start, it'd be great and his standing vertical would probably be better. But it honestly doesn't matter for his game because he's so tuned to his environment. Like he has all the physical gifts inside of him already and he, his environment brings out that which is needed and not more, which is efficient. Right. If it's here, it's like, well, let's bring out everything. Let's get everything good. And I just think there's something to, I don't know, like, like just constantly seeking the environment to draw it out of you. And yeah, if you're do track, that's great. Like, I'm a track guy. Like, I, I think that's awesome. But I just think, um, I just think just to watch an elite mover and how they respond to their sport when na is just such a good one with his headers. Uh, and then I really, like, I was thinking a lot about like an Alan Iversson, uh, so I will say this caveat. You have people who are just the ultimate athlete and then like team players, role players, you know, like there's athletes who are way more of a team player. Alan Iversson, there's a famous quote of him or soundbite, he's like, practice what's practice? Mm-hmm. I don't need to go to practice. Like,

Ryan Patrick 1:11:24

yep.

Joel Smith 1:11:24

He was just so, he, he was such an athlete. He needed the highest competition to bring it out of me. He probably go to practice and be like, this is boring. You know? I mean, Alan Iverson was a star. He was a D one, one of the best quarterback prospects in the country. But then went to play basketball and I mean, it's just so, just crazy gift, crazy gifted, intuitive mover. And you can't

Ryan Patrick 1:11:44

Hated lifting.

Joel Smith 1:11:45

Yeah. Yeah. Hated lifting. Could run a four 40 mile and you can't teach any of this stuff, you know? No. And you know, again, this isn't to say don't lift weights and don't do this stuff, but it's just to say, and yeah, I mean, you have to be a certain amount of giftedness, but I'm sure the environment, like I mentioned, what he probably grew up in too, like being just around older kids, playing ball, playing football, foot, uh, flag football, speed, agility, things you can't get anywhere else, right? Like he was already a super gifted athlete and did that. And just, so to me, watching those athletes who are so good and to be that good, it takes it, it just takes challenging your environment over and over and over again. Um, so I really, I really like him. Um, I always like watching Bo Jackson, you know?

Ryan Patrick 1:12:28

Yeah.

Joel Smith 1:12:29

But they said Bo could bench 4 0 5, I believe it. And he probably, I bet he didn't even lift weights that much. He probably did, but not like a lot. I don't think he did. He probably wasn't living in the gym, just had it.

Ryan Patrick 1:12:37

It's just he's a specimen man.

Joel Smith 1:12:39

Yeah.

Ryan Patrick 1:12:40

It's all that was,

Joel Smith 1:12:40

I love just watching him like, like who no one runs up the wall anymore. Like, like, think about it. Like who in baseball runs up the wall to make a catch? Like he did. He did it.'cause his, his internal signal is like, what can I do with my environment? How can I play? He was playing with his space. We don't do that anymore.

Ryan Patrick 1:12:59

Mm-hmm. But

Joel Smith 1:13:00

I don't know, it's like, how can we get to the point where we do that? I think, you know, parkour school, he was jumping across ditches right. When he was little. Like, we don't, kids don't have the boredom and space to do that anymore. It's like, give them that space. Give them the world as my playground, you know? And

Ryan Patrick 1:13:13

I, I wonder if we're gonna see a, a two sport professional athlete again.

Joel Smith 1:13:19

Probably not. Probably not. Uh, I mean, you know. Some people have said, I do think the average level is higher to get in.

Ryan Patrick 1:13:27

Mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 1:13:28

But I don't know. Yeah. I probably not unfortunately.

Ryan Patrick 1:13:34

I mean, Bo Dion, I don't count Michael Jordan, but I heard this guy

Joel Smith 1:13:38

was pretty good at the end of his deal. Little baseball stint. I heard he was getting decent.

1:13:43

Like,

Ryan Patrick 1:13:43

I mean, he had to be sufficient, right? Yeah. Like he's probably better than me.

Joel Smith 1:13:46

Yeah. You

Ryan Patrick 1:13:47

know? Or the average person, like a bad pro is still really good. Like, oh yeah, white, white, you know, white Mamba is like, he's gonna play anybody in one-on-one and beat him. Um, but he would always say, you know, I'm the 12th man in the nba. He's like, I'm closer to LeBron than you are to me.

Joel Smith 1:14:01

Yeah.

Ryan Patrick 1:14:02

Uh, which is wild to think about.

Joel Smith 1:14:04

Was that Bryan scale? Rinni?

Ryan Patrick 1:14:05

Yeah. He

Joel Smith 1:14:06

plays people. Yeah. Average people. That's hilarious. Yeah. That's so funny.

Ryan Patrick 1:14:10

I, I think it's fantastic.'cause I mean, I was just shocked, like how much he, he cooked guys who were, you know, D one. Oh yeah. And you're, you're like, they gotta be pretty close, right? No.

Joel Smith 1:14:21

Yeah.

Ryan Patrick 1:14:22

No, not even.

Joel Smith 1:14:23

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. For sure. I even, I would play pickup ball against the WNBA like all star. Mm-hmm. And she cooked me, man, like, she had so many moves. Like, I was like, I am lost. I cannot guard you. Like this is, is, I mean, and I, I just played high school varsity, you know, but still even that gap. It's crazy, man. Yeah,

Ryan Patrick 1:14:41

I know. There's people on, you know, the Twitters, they're like, oh, you know, eighth grade a a U team could beat a WNB team. I'm like, are you sure? Like, I don't, I don't know if I quite buy that.

Joel Smith 1:14:51

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Patrick 1:14:52

She

Joel Smith 1:14:53

was, man. Yeah, it was, it was crazy.

Ryan Patrick 1:14:55

All right, man. I got a, a quickie and then I'll let you, uh, kind of tell everybody where we can find out more about you. But you already gave me the one test, the, the squatty to tall run. Is there another test or experiment you like to run with the guys who are rigid lack, creativity, timing, rhythm, that kind of help them break out and and explore movement again?

Joel Smith 1:15:15

Yeah. Uh, just have'em skip and, and the first time just don't say anything because

Ryan Patrick 1:15:19

mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 1:15:19

It's really important that when someone skips, you learn everything about just letting'em do it. Yeah. A lot of times you'll see like they're, they're trying to do something like they thought a coach told them to do, like Super Mario. Like they drive their arm up and they drive their knee up. It's like, oh, this is skipping. It's like, actually it's not. That's, that's skipping when you totally missed the ground contact portion and now you're just trying to hit a position. Um, and they're really rigid and so, mm-hmm. But you could just start there and just unpack it, you know, I like, that's why I like, like lo knee skipping to start because it just attunes you to the timing of the ground and then

Ryan Patrick 1:15:52

mm-hmm.

Joel Smith 1:15:52

Maybe we'll do skipping and say, Hey, just have awareness of your arms, your attention. Maybe we'll exaggerate the error of attention, those kind of things. And that usually can iron a lot of things out. I do that a lot actually with, um, uh, I do mile and a half and four mile run training for tactical groups and they military types to be very, especially they rock a lot there. Yeah, pretty rigid through like the shoulders. And so that, uh, we'll do a lot of shoulder rolls for that too. But skipping is like a base of it because you and, and, uh, and even music, like skip to the music and

Ryan Patrick 1:16:22

Yep.

Joel Smith 1:16:22

Me had, that's like a kryptonite for a lot of meatheads, but they, once they get good at it, you know, they, they can make do

Ryan Patrick 1:16:28

No, that's great. I I, we got a football guy, man. He, he skips like an exclamation point. That's the, that's the only way I can describe it. Yeah. It's just very, it's very, uh, it's a loud skip. Yeah, it's, yeah. Very exaggerated.

Joel Smith 1:16:37

Mm-hmm.

Ryan Patrick 1:16:38

Um, but anyway, man, this was, this was awesome. I got a lot out of this. Um, and I, again, I appreciate your time coming on. It is so good to finally connect. I mean, we live. Driving distance from each other. Yeah. And you know, kids and life and everything else, it's, it's hard to connect. So if, um, if people wanna follow up, tell me where we can find you on Instagram X, the podcast, gimme the rundown.

Joel Smith 1:17:01

Sure. Yeah. It's all just life sports, uh, Twitter or X, sorry, X in Instagram. And then, uh, just live performance podcast.

Ryan Patrick 1:17:09

All right. I'll make sure I put that in the show notes, man. I appreciate your time. Thanks a lot.

Joel Smith 1:17:13

Yeah, thank you Ryan. Appreciate you having me.