#27 | How Not to Die: The Best Diet for Optimal Health

What if everything you've been told about nutrition is wrong? Or at least, not entirely right? In this deep-dive episode, we tackle the mountain of misinformation surrounding nutrition and health, challenging popular myths that have become accepted as truth.

Ever wondered why vegetarians seem healthier? It might not be what you think. We explore how the "health-seeking illusion" skews research and why comparing health-conscious omnivores to health-conscious vegetarians yields surprisingly similar results. The conversation shifts to gluten – that notorious dietary villain – and reveals why most people who feel better after eliminating it might be experiencing benefits for entirely different reasons than they believe.

The artificial sweetener debate receives a scientific reality check as we examine the evidence behind common concerns. How many cans of Diet Coke would you need to drink daily to reach concerning levels? (Spoiler: it's far more than anyone could reasonably consume.) We also scrutinise organic food claims, questioning whether the substantial price premium delivers proportional health benefits.

Drawing from global dietary patterns – from the high-carb Kitavans to the high-fat traditional Inuit – we demonstrate that dramatically different macronutrient compositions can sustain excellent health. The fascinating case study of the Pima Indians reveals how identical genetics yield radically different health outcomes based on lifestyle rather than diet alone.

The episode concludes with a candid exploration of body positivity, weight stigma, and what constitutes genuine health beyond the numbers on a scale. We also explore Bryan Johnson's extreme anti-ageing experiments and what they might mean for the future of longevity science.

Whether you're a nutrition enthusiast, health professional, or simply trying to make better food choices, this evidence-based exploration cuts through the noise and provides practical insights into what truly matters for optimal health. Subscribe for more evidence-based nutrition information that challenges conventional wisdom and empowers you to make informed decisions.

With a temper as short as her legs, Fiona joins Ben every week to forcefully "Push Your Health From The Pulls Of Life."

Expect Foul-mouthed narcissistic ramblings on fitness, nutrition, film, and life's daily rot. 

This weekly audio & video expansion on the world-famous 'The Daily (ish) Rot' email and video ramblings also includes: 

Usefully Useless Fitness and Diet Advice.
Half-arsed film reviews.
The exploitation of children.
True Crime recommendations.
Nutritious leprechaun-inspired recipes (short and to the point)
Narcissistic wisdom. 

WHO THE FU*K ARE WE?

Howdy,

I'm Ben, the only 'health' coach (not a life coach) who allows you to embrace your Rotten attitude towards exercise and nutrition! 

Empowering You to give the middle finger to your yo-yo diet and half-arsed exercise routine in JUST 30 Days! 

Are you sick of yo-yo-ing from one restrictive diet and hideous exercise plan to the next, begging for it to end so you can slip back into old habits? 

Only to start the same rotten cycle again?

YOUR COMPLIMENTARY 30 DAY DIET KICK-UP-THE-ARSER 

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Transcript

Introduction and Channel Information

Fiona 0:00

One, two, three.

Ben 0:04

Quite sure why that's so funny.

Fiona 0:07

So much effort went into that.

Ben 0:09

Okay, are we ready?

Fiona 0:11

Yes. Go on Ben.

Ben 0:13

Are we warm?

Fiona 0:14

I'm warm.

Ben 0:16

What about these lights? Don't make any difference. Do they Right? Introduce yourself. Don't make any difference.

Fiona 0:23

Introduce yourself.

Ben 0:30

MNU, mnu, push-pull health, push-pull health.

Fiona 0:36

Yes.

Ben 0:37

Where do you find push-pull health? We always forget this.

Fiona 0:40

I know, this is all about MNU.

Ben 0:44

Yes, correct, but we should. We should mention push-pull health. Sometimes this is all about a menu. Yes, correct, but we should. We should mention Push Pull Health sometimes. Where can you find them, fiona?

Fiona 0:51

well, you're always banging on. Where can?

Ben 0:52

you find them? That's us. Where can you find us? Not them, it's us. It's me, not even us.

Fiona 0:58

It's me, I am Push Pull Health you're always banging on about the oh the Push Pull health studio, so I'm assuming that's where you find them. Find you?

Ben 1:06

well, this is the studio oh, oh yeah, kind of turn the lights on. May I just put the lights just facing in the opposite direction that have the same effect or just open the blinds. Be grand or just have no lights just here in the dark, yeah anyhow, where can you find push pull health? Yeah, anyhow, where can you find Push Pull Health all the?

Fiona 1:25

social stuff the Facebook, the Instagram, yeah you'll find these episodes on YouTube are you on the TikTok?

Ben 1:30

yeah, oh, yeah, oh. With the kids on TikTok, the what with the kids on TikTok? Oh, love kids right.

Fiona 1:41

I'm assuming you mean my kids, my babies, all kids, okay, all kids, right? I don't know what you're trying to get. I'm assuming you mean my kids my babies, all kids Okay. All kids, right? I don't know what you're trying to get at, but I'm just going to ignore you.

Ben 1:51

I'm a TikToker.

Fiona 1:53

TikTok.

Ben 1:54

Okay. Let's go. We failed to mention Pushable Health. So to watch the full episode, to watch the full length episode of this, go to YouTube. Ben Push4Health Fun. Got to advertise this stuff. Yes, got to advertise it. I know we've done in the past where we've overdone it, just talked about lights and the camera and woes and Push4Health. But you have to, you have to at least mention it, tell people where to go, signpost it. Mnu Pushbull Health.

Fiona 2:31

Excellent. I now know where to find you YouTube, ben at Pushbull Health. Thank you.

Ben 2:37

It's that camera. Just when it's on, I'm just attracted to it like a magnet.

Fiona 2:41

Oh, I know.

Ben 2:42

Just love the camera.

Fiona 2:43

I know I love being in front of it, I love talking to it. So when you're here I'm just.

Ben 2:53

You're conflicted about who to talk to. I just love it. Talk to the camera, okay, what have we got today? We've condensed more lectures. This is was a lot of notes there is a lot of this is the hard part about these, because these lectures from mnu are just so in-depth, lots of information, so really you need to be doing at least one episode per lecture. That's going to take a long time, that is. That's a lot of editing. We don't have time.

Fiona 3:16

That's a lot of editing, isn't it?

Ben 3:17

Graduation is in well, exams are in September, I believe. So I'm yeah, we're getting there.

Fiona 3:23

June next week.

Ben 3:24

Graduation's in november exactly can't wait for that so we've had to condense some myths and optimal health. So this is effectively four lectures into one episode. It's just not. It's not ideal. It's not ideal, but Needs must, Unfortunately we're not doing this full time yet.

Fiona 3:46

No, thankfully.

Ben 3:51

Long intro.

Fiona 3:52

Very long.

Vegetarians vs. Omnivores: Health Seeking Illusion

Ben 3:53

So debunking diet myths, nutritional myths and achieving optimal health.

Fiona 4:01

How do you do that?

Ben 4:03

Can you? Well, you can debunk myths, that's not a problem. Can you achieve optimal health? What do you need to do to achieve optimal health? Is it possible? Is our mate Brian Johnson? Is he the guy? We'll leave him to later. Oh, okay.

Fiona 4:21

We'll leave him to later.

Ben 4:23

A vampire, people call him apparently.

Fiona 4:25

He's just yeah an odd, yeah.

Ben 4:27

He's interesting. I'm glad he exists.

Fiona 4:31

Sorry, okay, I'm not gonna.

Ben 4:33

I'll wait till later to give out, Don't mind the first image there, fiona, ignore that that was just about the blue zones, but we did actually cover some of that in the last episode.

Fiona 4:39

We did. So, so common nutritional themes.

Ben 4:46

Sorry, no, I just said ignore that image. So that's the image, just talking about the blue zone stuff.

Fiona 4:55

Then why is it in there?

Ben 4:55

if you want me to ignore it? We've got four or five myths, lots of other myths, just not the time, so I've picked four or five. How many is here? Four or five? Okay, yeah, I think it's about four or five. How many is? How many is here? Four or five? Okay, yeah, I think it's about four or five. Cheers. Thanks for clarifying. If we just go through those then. So myth number one this is myth one. We're busting myths. Mnu, evidence based research, evidence based practitioner, evidence based practice. This is what this is. This is evidence, evidence-based research, evidence-based practitioner, evidence-based practice. This is what this is.

Fiona 5:29

This is evidence-based. I'll evidence-based you in a minute.

Ben 5:31

This is busting myths, for evidence.

Fiona 5:35

Myth number one Vegetarians and vegans versus omnivores the health-seeking illusion.

Ben 5:42

Some of this is chat GBT All my own notes. But when you feed it this is chat GBT All my own notes. But when you feed it in chat, GBT just can't help itself.

Fiona 5:48

There is a quote there. That's not you. Observational data shows vegetarians appear healthier, but that's often because they're more likely to be health-seeking. When you compare them to health-conscious omnivores, people who don't smoke, move regularly and eat a balanced diet, their Health conscious omnivores, people who don't smoke, move regularly and eat a balanced diet, their differences fade.

Ben 6:10

Omnivorous dietary patterns are wildly in quality, very, very Very.

Fiona 6:18

LeSemony. Omnivorous dietary patterns vary wildly in quality, making broad health comparisons less meaningful unless dietary behaviours and food quality are controlled. For Most observational studies, group people who eat chicken salads with people who eat Rustler's burgers.

Ben 6:40

Being slightly facetious there, they do tend to get these types of people, which can then skew the data a little bit.

Fiona 6:46

Of course they know what they're looking for and they're going to do everything they can to get the results that they want.

Ben 6:53

Well, be careful Be careful, it's just worth noting, it's worth putting it out there, with these observational studies.

Fiona 6:59

So the average omnivore tends to eat more processed meat, have lower fibre intake and eat fewer plants. Most omnivores aren't hitting their protein targets on salmon and lentils. They're hitting it on sausage rolls and late night kebabs.

Ben 7:14

Potentially, do we need to discuss any of this, fiona? You're just rattling all these notes off. They're fantastic, they are great.

Fiona 7:20

Let me finish this instead of interrupting every two seconds.

Ben 7:22

Oh, right, okay.

Fiona 7:23

Most studies are biased samples.

Ben 7:25

Most studies. So they're biased, yes, biased. So they go to people. Where do they find these people? Health?

Fiona 7:30

stores they find them in health stores?

Ben 7:32

Yes, yes, of course you assume people that are walking the aisles of health stores Holland and Barrett's Probably health seeking, potentially health seeking, potentially health seeking looking for that extra 1% to maximise their health so what?

Fiona 7:49

they're just handing out flyers so it could be biased.

Ben 7:53

It could be biased. They're talking to these people. If they're in Holland and Barrett, if they're in these health stores, chances are they're already doing a lot of this stuff. They're covering the basics, so they're just looking for the extra stuff. What additional supplement do I need If I'm a vegan? Do I need to start supplementing? Do you? Yes, we'll get into that in a second. That's literally the next line.

Fiona 8:16

Excellent. It's hard to do two things at once. The healthiest vegetarian and the healthiest omnivore are basically the same person, just with a different source of protein and the same multivitamin in the cupboard. Chat GBT study chat GBT does that make sense? Yeah.

Ben 8:35

I think so they're not low. Of course they're not the same person lots of differences, of course but but it's if they're both health-seeking individuals following a lot of the same stuff the fibre, high protein, minimising ultra-processed foods, moving, not smoking, minimal alcohol. What other stuff?

Fiona 9:02

Everything Less stress. What other stuff do you deem someone who's health-seeking?

Ben 9:06

Sleep, Sleep. Oh, of course.

Fiona 9:09

Water.

Ben 9:10

Hydration yes, You've got to have your water.

Fiona 9:13

Hydration is key. It's important.

Ben 9:18

It can be helpful. Yeah, I would say, Drink enough.

Fiona 9:22

Veganism is not inherently optimal. Without proper planning, you're likely to be low in B12, iron, omega-3s, iodine and calcium.

Ben 9:31

Potentially, yeah, something to think about.

Fiona 9:35

Yeah, but do they take all these supplements, do they not? Surely to God.

Ben 9:38

Well, bloody hell, fiona, you can't just say that, can you? I envision that a lot of people who have gone vegan, who are vegans, who are following a plant-based diet, might not be the thing about the vegan diet is that it can be quite high in carbs yeah so that might mean that a lot of people are not getting a good amount of protein into their diet.

Fiona 10:08

But if they're low on B12 and iron, surely to God, they're fatigued all the time and tired and knackered they might be.

Ben 10:16

The reason why this is tiring is because you have to keep saying some people. It's not a blanket statement, is it? No.

Ben 10:23

That's what tires me. I mean it's tiring. I know you have to clarify stuff, but if anything, it's even more tiring because this is evidence-based, this is eminute, this is evidence-based stuff. I just want to say that. But then you say something I have to go. Oh well, no well, you can't, just like you just said well, surely. Well, aren't all vegans doing this already? No, no, of course they're not. No, they're not all supplementing. They're not aware that they could be deficient. You see what I mean? Yes, so if you go vegan, it's like, well, as you're a vegan, I'm assuming you're doing this right. I'm assuming you're covering all the bases with supplementation, because if you're not eating a lot of foods, you might be deficient in this.

Fiona 11:08

A lot of foods that you're cutting out.

Ben 11:09

If you're not an omnivore, you might be missing calcium B12, iodine, iron and B12.

Fiona 11:16

What do you mean?

Ben 11:17

Well, I'm plant-based, I'm vegan, I'm healthy. I'm saving the planet. Fine, that's great, I'm healthy.

Fiona 11:24

Saving the planet? Fine, that's great. What's your blood test say?

Ben 11:27

How are you feeling? I feel like shit actually. Yeah, Not feeling too good. Oh right, Okay, Maybe we should look into that.

Fiona 11:33

Interesting, although it is difficult to single out specific reasons why people tend to lose weight on a plant-based diet. It is likely a combination of avoiding higher calorie animal products and calorie dense fatty foods, an increase in dietary fibre and a focus on low fat food items with low energy density, all of which together results in a decrease in calories consumed. Well, that makes sense Again careful. Fiona.

Ben 12:02

What do you mean? It makes sense. That's quite a good line, isn't it? Yeah, quite a good paragraph there.

Fiona 12:06

Yeah, that's what I mean it's good, makes sense. Okay, no bother. Was that you or chat GBT?

Ben 12:11

My notes, yeah.

Fiona 12:11

Good, excellent, well done, it's good.

Ben 12:15

Right yeah.

Fiona 12:18

Hit the nail on the head there, anything.

Ben 12:20

Anything else to say, anything else we need to clarify from that part. I'm aware that I'm just I put these notes down and you rattle them off and it's like well, that's it, isn't it. I know we're getting to time as well, so it's hard. To every point that you make, it's like right, let's talk about that in a bit more detail.

Fiona 12:36

Yeah, but it's regardless of what diet you do. You have at everything and you're getting the right things for your body, regardless of whether it's an omnivore diet or a plant-based diet. If you're on an omnivore diet, you might have low fibre, whereas if you are in a vegan diet, you might have low iron levels or a low vitamin, whatever.

Ben 13:01

Yes, for the most part the same stuff applies across the board. Yeah, exactly.

Fiona 13:04

That's what I mean. You have to make sure that you are supplementing in either diet.

Ben 13:09

Well, maybe not To get to achieve optimal results, you might not need to do any form of supplementation.

Fiona 13:15

Well, it depends on what you're eating.

Ben 13:17

It just shows that if you are a vegan, chances are you might actually have to supplement. Yes, because you are, you might be missing. You might be missing. Chances are you could be, you might be, you might be missing the ones that rattled off. But ultimately, the point of that was to say that just because you're vegetarian, this is this is vegetarians as well. Yeah, we talked about vegans vegetarian if you're vegetarian, if you're, if you're plant-based vegetarians, vegans no meat it doesn't automatically mean that you're healthier than the average omnivore.

Ben 13:53

But with this, with these notes, with the studies, the average omnivore might be, for example, eating more processed meat, lacking fibre, low protein, not moving, smoking, drinking yes it might not be a fair comparison to omnivores that are health seeking yes right, okay. I understand excellent. That's good, that's lovely. That's a solid start. That is did you mention that I've got a new blazer on today. New blazer the batmans have gone. Well done. The adidas are out. Solid start, that is. Did mention that I've got a new blazer on today.

Fiona 14:24

New blazer. The Batmans have gone, well done. The Adidas are out.

Ben 14:31

No tie today. No tie, no. I thought we'd just.

Fiona 14:33

Chill Smart cash.

Gluten: The Convenient Scapegoat

Ben 14:40

Professional is the main thing, this is professional Myth number two Gluten. I think we might.

Fiona 14:48

Just let me talk. I'd have to say the first sentence done.

Ben 14:50

Gluten is actually it's really boring, actually it's really boring.

Fiona 14:55

Gluten, the convenient scapegoat. Unless you have celiac disease, which is around 1-2% of the population, gluten is not harmful. People feel. People feel better when they go gluten free because they stop eating high FODMAP and highly processed foods like pastries, white bread, lasagne, beer and beige studge. Beige studge, I like it.

Ben 15:24

Okay, I like it. Okay, I like it. Yeah, you mentioned FODMAP there. We're gonna FODMAPs here, go on tell us what FODMAPs are.

Fiona 15:29

Ben, it's there. It's there for you, fiona. Yeah, I'm not. It's there. I'm not saying all those words, don't worry about all the the saccharides.

Ben 15:34

That's fine, we don't have to mention the saccharides Carbs. Strain. I think it's meant to be chain.

Fiona 15:46

Let's say strain, chain strain, is it strain?

Ben 15:49

or chain.

Fiona 15:49

Fermented short strain carbs Probably chain, Strain chain. Same. Thing.

Ben 15:57

Kind of yeah, similar.

Fiona 16:00

Found in wheat, onions, garlic, apples, beans and other food, causing bloating gas fatigue. They can, they can cause, they can yes, celiacs offer gain weight on a gluten-free diet due to a better nutrient absorption. Ancient grains often have more gluten, not less. What's an ancient grain?

Ben 16:21

Oh sorry, this was based on going back to our ancestors yes, and for example the paleo diet oh, the paleo, that's later on yes, okay, but there are lots of people and studies apparently out there that say, well, ancient grains back in paleolithic times had a lot less gluten in. Hmm, oh, which was?

Ben 16:45

a lot less gluten in, which was a lot better for us. And now all these grains have now got loads of gluten in, and that's what's causing all this problem for people, that's what's making them feel like crap. Then other studies have been done to show that no, actually sorry, in fact ancient grains contained more gluten. I think they did test on tools that were found in the ground from 100,000 years ago, which then all had grains that contained a high amount of gluten in them, grains that contained a high amount of gluten in them, so a lot of studies are very conflicting.

Ben 17:33

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, they can be.

Fiona 17:35

You didn't lose weight because you cooked gluten. You lost weight because you stopped eating beige battered carbs, all day.

Ben 17:41

That's chat GPT. I was just about to say I'll just leave. It Makes sense, doesn't it? It's fine.

Fiona 17:45

You're not gluten intolerant. You just stopped living on garlic bread and noodles and now you feel less like a human bin. Oh chat GBT.

Ben 17:55

It's fine. Yeah, Did you get the point?

Fiona 17:58

Yeah, it is Gluten-free. Alternatives are often more processed, higher in sugar and fat, lower in fibre and protein and higher in total calories. They are a risk of pushing people into disordered eating or unnecessary restriction. We don't like being restricted, they risk.

Ben 18:17

Yes, they can do. The annoying thing is you want to be confident in what you're saying, but you are, but you're just worried about offending.

Ben 18:29

No, I don't give a shit about offending. Well, mne, I'm trying to be professional. You just said the S word. I'm not worried about offending people, serge. I'm not trying to upset people, but, based on being evidence-based, I guess this is just part of the deal. If you've got studies to say, well, hang on a minute, this shows this that then should put you in a position to be confident. There's always studies coming out, isn't there? That's the thing. So, as long as you have Everything's conflicting.

Fiona 18:57

Everyone's always trying to get one up, isn't it Not? This one says this, so therefore that's wrong. Says this, so therefore that's wrong. That's where you have to look at all of the factors. You have to be open.

Ben 19:06

I think that's the biggest thing, you have to be open, even with studies, even if there's thousands of studies saying this does this yes, well, it's open to interpretation.

Ben 19:13

It's how you interpret a study as well yes, but there will be other studies that say, no, that's wrong, it does this. So you have to know right, yes, that's you do. You have to be open. You have to say not talking absolute, we talked about this before. You can't talk in absolutes. You can be confident in your, in your standing, that you believe, based on the research of this topic, this topic, and this shows that based on the research, yes to be, I think, to be evidence-based and to be an evidence-based practitioner, you have to be open all the time.

Ben 19:48

You have to say you can't speak in absolutes, even though you want to. It doesn't matter how wacky the study is, it doesn't matter how wacky the claims are from the opposing side. Does that make sense? Yes, it's hard, though it's tough.

Fiona 20:05

Yeah, it's difficult yes, when you are evidence based.

Ben 20:08

Of course, it is because you've got all of these legit studies when people are saying, when people say stuff like if you eat the same amount of calories but you have a high carb diet, you will put on fat. So you're telling me that if you equate the calories and they're exactly the same, exactly the same, you will put on more body fat if you eat a higher carb diet?

Fiona 20:33

yes, who says that?

Ben 20:35

people charlatans potentially. In my opinion, that's difficult because that's going against the laws of thermodynamics. That's tough.

Fiona 20:47

Do these people know?

Ben 20:48

about thermodynamics. That's not easy to stomach. Yes, these are, once again, very intelligent people.

Fiona 20:54

Then what? Okay, that's another podcast. Well, yeah, it is Anyway we need to move on.

Ben 21:00

Sometimes, when you believe that and that's your career, it's very difficult to back down. You're all in, aren't you? A lot of these carnivores, for example, a lot of carnivores. Well, some of the bigger carnivores are starting to creep more carbohydrates into their diet. They're starting to have a little bit of fruit here and there, a little bit of honey. Oh, why are you doing that? It's a little bit like shit. What was that? Sorry, what was that? Oh, it's a little bit like shit. Oh right, but you're frying me, aren't you?

Fiona 21:40

Yeah, that's the thing. That's the thing. They'd never admit it if they were feeling like crap. Nobody would ever admit it if you are a fully fledged vegan. So you see, you see all of these people who are dying because they had this really strict vegan diet did that person ever turn around and say I am knackered?

Ben 21:58

who are all these people dying? Hang on, be very careful. Someone died.

Fiona 22:02

I don't know who. This is evidence based. Oh sorry, I'm a charlatan.

Ben 22:06

This is tiring because I'm doing it with you. This is why it's tiring. I have the average person here, which is great. This is useful. But you just say stuff. This is the problem. This is why it's difficult, but this is what it's all about Exactly. In a different setting.

Ben 22:20

I might go well, I'm not too sure about that, fiona, but I just let it go. Oh, this is it. Oh god, I need to bring this up quickly, very quickly. Some guy on youtube this. There we go. I put one of the a clip out from the episode from when we talk about rats yeah, artificial sweeteners yeah, oh, that's coming up next diet cokes.

Ben 22:39

And you said something along the lines of well, if you've got a rat, the rat's the size of my little finger. Well, it's probably a bit bigger than that. So that doesn't make any sense, does it? You can't equate that to humans, right? Yes, to a point, but I don't think I really pushed it. I was like I don't think in the episode I pushed on it, but there was more around it which made sense. If you listen to the full episode it should make a bit more sense. But then I should have clarified and said yes, of course, but some of these studies will then will then change the amount.

Ben 23:14

The dosage match for humans. Yeah, to that effect. Yeah, but in this case I just go.

Fiona 23:18

Yeah, I was kind of saying in jest to be fair, well, yeah, well maybe, maybe, but it's difficult, isn't it?

Ben 23:23

if you just say that, you go, oh well, maybe, maybe, but it's difficult, isn't it? If you just say that and you go, oh well, that's it, then, yeah, it's not the same If you give the same amount to a human compared to a rat. You see what I'm saying, yes? So this person commented oh my God, yeah well, you're comparing it to. Oh well, how can you compare a small rat to a human? Slightly different, isn't it True? It is yeah.

Ben 23:49

Yeah, and I had to clarify with the Edvins Bay stuff and say, based on if you equate the same amount that was potentially causing cancer in some of these rats and some of these rodents, you take that amount and apply it to, say, a human, 70 kg human yes it would then equate to I think it was to reach that dosage where you might have to start.

Ben 24:13

Well, not even be concerned, I have it here right, we have it in the notes, don't we fear, we have it in the notes. So yes, this person commented rats, humans, they're not the same. How can you compare them? Good point. Now I clarified what we wrote here. Sorry, what I wrote here. I clarified this to the gentleman and I think they liked the post. So I was like, oh okay, there we go. You have to be very careful, right? Gluten is that. Are we all okay for gluten?

Fiona 24:35

we're okay for gluten. That was okay. It was alright. Yes, let's talk about artificial sweeteners. This is Is this myth?

Ben 24:41

number three Very briefly, because we have talked about artificial sweeteners before and we talked about it on the last episode, so we're just very brief.

Fiona 24:48

So artificial sweeteners. Myth number three I'm assuming it doesn't say tree- beside it.

Ben 24:51

We are recording, aren't we Everything's recording?

Artificial Sweeteners: Myths and Evidence

Fiona 24:54

Artificial sweeteners. Artificial sweeteners.

Ben 24:57

Yes, myth number three, I believe. So yeah, okay.

Fiona 25:00

No strong evidence for insulin spikes in humans from sweeteners Renwick and Molinari.

Ben 25:05

That's the study. Oh, yes, yes. Some people will say focus, Fiona, focus. Does that line make sense?

Fiona 25:14

Yeah, there's no strong evidence for insulin spikes in humans from sweeteners.

Ben 25:18

Okay, so how do you interpret that?

Fiona 25:20

There's no evidence to suggest that you can get an insulin spike from sweeteners like you would with sugar.

Ben 25:24

Okay, there's no evidence to suggest that you can get an insulin spike from sweeteners like you would with sugar.

Fiona 25:27

Okay yes, compared to sugar. Right, it's what it says on the tin, basically Okay fine, fine, just clarifying.

Ben 25:33

Okay, but some people will say something along the lines of drinking artificial sweeteners. Having a Diet Coke will trick your body into thinking that you are consuming sugar Because it's sweet or whatever, whatever the mechanisms that they come out with, and your body will have the same response as if you were drinking a full fat Coke. It's not the case. That's not what happens. Okay. As the line says.

Fiona 26:01

No, spiking no spiking, if anything.

Ben 26:05

That is more of a psychological thing, because sometimes you just need to have the treat, you just need to have the sugar If you're craving something but, you don't want to have the sugar-laden delight. You have something that's low in calorie. We spoke about this before, didn't we? You're going to have the. Don't want to have the sugar laden delight. You have something that's low in calorie. We spoke about this before.

Fiona 26:27

Yes, but it's something that's going to have to treat in the end something that's lowering calories.

Ben 26:30

Or you have a diet coke. You know I sort of do fancier. I fancy a lilt, a good old-fashioned lilt, a full fat lilt. Think about that sugar. Oh okay, I'll just have one of these diet cokes then in an hour later, you're having your list.

Fiona 26:45

Didn't really quite hit the spot no calories.

Ben 26:50

So you'll still be, in terms of your physiological feelings, if you're hungry, if you're craving something. That doesn't go Because you've ingested no calories. Psychologically you might go oh that's yeah, okay, that's served a purpose. Physiologically there's no spiking, that doesn't exist, but you're still craving something, you're still hungry. Yes, that makes sense. That makes sense. Great, there we go. Okay, thank you.

Fiona 27:25

I'm struggling with this word, noel.

Ben 27:28

Well, it's in brackets there, Fiona.

Fiona 27:29

Yes, but I'm trying to figure out how to say it because it sounds like Christmas, Noel. No observed adverse effect level is the highest dose in studies where no harm is observed. Adi, which is the acceptable daily intake, is set 100 times lower than the NOAL as a safety buffer. What's aspartame? That's the sweetener.

Ben 27:52

That's the sweetener, yeah.

Fiona 27:53

For aspartame, the ADI is squiggly line, 40 mg per kg in the EU.

Ben 28:00

Okay, yeah, and there's the example.

Fiona 28:02

So for a 70 kg person that's 2,800 mg per day, which is equal to 14 to 15 cans of Diet Coke every day for life, to even approach it.

Ben 28:14

Right Wow.

Fiona 28:15

That's what you were saying.

Ben 28:16

That's a lot, isn't it, Fiona? It is a lot Ben, that's a lot that is a lot, but on the fly, when you're talking about this stuff 14 to 50 cans 14 to 15 cans.

Fiona 28:25

No, I'm sure people can do it. I'm sure people can do it that's a can of coke an hour. Yes, if and more. I'm sure there's people out there who are doing that.

Ben 28:31

Yeah, probably definitely yeah but the point is adding the. What do we add in there? To really clarify the point no, observed adverse effect level. To add that in as well on top, yeah.

Fiona 28:47

Yes, we've added that in, haven't we? Yes?

Ben 28:48

Right the highest dose in studies where no harm is observed. Yes, right.

Fiona 28:54

So no harm was observed.

Ben 28:55

So we're just nowhere near that. Yes, absolutely nowhere near that, hmm.

Fiona 29:03

I'm digesting that information.

Ben 29:05

Okay, you're looking at me. Is it because it's interesting or no, it is interesting. You're not too sure what it means.

Fiona 29:09

No, it's interesting right.

Ben 29:13

So this is what I try to clarify to the gentleman about the rat man yes, yeah, it wasn't me. You said the rat thing, so I was like, oh god, yeah.

Fiona 29:20

Fiona's put me in it. You have to clarify everything I say it's tiring.

Ben 29:24

We're already half an hour in. It's tiring, isn't it? It's all great stuff, great information, it's MNU, it's the best of the best, but it's just. Oh, there's just a lot. This is only part one. Yeah, right, okay, we need to get moving Overweight.

Fiona 29:39

people may lean on Diet Coke to justify other poor decisions, but that's a behaviour issue, not the fault of sweeteners. Used properly, sweeteners can reduce calorie intake easily, especially for people struggling with sugar addiction, diabetes or weight management.

Ben 29:54

Oh, why is that in there? Oh, dear, I didn't pick up on that, Sorry. Sugar addiction doesn't exist. Well, again, be careful. You have to be careful. Be careful. For some people, people, sugar addiction to a degree is a thing. Yes, physiologically you can't become addicted to sugar okay not not the same as you can become addicted to drugs or alcohol but we're not going to get into the dopamine and the reward centre of the brain because it lights up when you take sugar in and all this stuff.

Fiona 30:32

We've done that before the reason why you get addicted to alcohol or drugs is because you get the kick out of it, so wouldn't it be the same with sugar because you get a kick out of sugar because of the dopamine, etc.

Ben 30:43

In terms of a physiological addiction, it's not the same. The body can become sugar because you get a kick out of sugar, because of yes, but in terms of a physiological addiction, it's not the same. The body can become addicted to alcohol and drugs yeah from a physiological standpoint okay when it comes to sugar. It's not the same response right understood but yes, like you just said, you'll crave it, but you won't be addicted to it. Yes, yes.

Ben 31:07

I've said before about how often do you see people spooning from a bag of sugar? How often do you see people sitting here just with a spoon going. Oh God, I've just got to go and have a bit.

Ben 31:18

I don't think I've ever seen that, and also a lot of foods, a lot of foods that have sugar in, have also got a lot of fat, very calorie dense, of course, but a lot of sugar laden foods are also quite high in fat. It's not necessarily just the sugar alone that's addictive, or what you crave is everything else.

Ben 31:43

Well, if you think of if you think of just your average food that is quite high in sugar, away from the natural sugars seen in fruits and stuff like that. If you look at the calories and what else is in that biscuit, that chocolate bar good amount of fat, yeah there's a lot, yeah, hmm, interesting.

Fiona 32:02

So peak fear mongering is pretending a two calorie sweetener will kill you while eating 5 000 entret calories a day. It's a good one. Good chat, gbt. Thank you well again.

Ben 32:16

Sorry, these are my notes. These are all my bloody notes. So you keep saying let's just clarify that I'm not just going chat, gbt, I've got these lectures here. Can you just make some notes out? These are my notes. These are my notes from the lectures. Yes, and my own notes from over the years that I've put in along the lectures to flesh it out what's for you to see that yeah, well, you might, you're blown on, you're blown away I'm blown away, blown away, but what I'm saying?

Ben 32:40

mit number let me just end on this oh, sorry, it can.

Ben 32:43

It can be really really unsavoury. It can be really quite gross when people are saying for someone who might be obese, severely overweight, to not have a Diet Coke, to not have something that might have artificial sweeteners in, because it might give you cancer, because it has the same cancer, because it might, because it has the same response in your gut as a full fat drink will. So you're actually just, in some ways, you're actually better off just having that. It's less dangerous. Really that's hard to stomach. But who wants to drink water? Who wants to drink water? Water sucks.

Fiona 33:21

I like a bit of squash.

Ben 33:22

Oh, water's horrendous, so you're asking someone, right? Okay, we need to find someone who's severely overweight. Right, we need to find ways to start, of course, getting you to move more, but that might not be an option at the moment. So we need to find ways to start reducing your calorie intake. Well, liquids might be one of the first things that you start with oh, you know and you've got people out there saying they don't ask for treaters.

Ben 33:41

Look, look at all these studies. No, you'd be better off sticking to the full fat version, oh, okay. Oh God Right, okay, yeah, don't eat that yogurt, don't eat this, don't eat that. Oh, added sugar, oh, artificial. No, get the full fat version. No, sorry, these people need to lose weight. They need to lose weight or they're going to die. So switching over and they don't want to drink water because it sucks, so switching over to a low calorie option that has some sweetener in might actually save their life. Now, this is being extreme, but this is what we're dealing with. It is extreme, isn't it, if you're severely overweight and you're morbidly obese of their life. Now, this is being extreme, but this is what we're dealing with. It is extreme, isn't it, if you're severely overweight and you're morbidly obese and you want to lose weight to improve your health? In the grand scheme of things, it's not extreme, is it?

Fiona 34:40

I don't know. It's a simple change.

Ben 34:42

You're saying what changes can we make that might be doable? Can we switch your full fat Coke to a diet Coke or to a Coke Zero? Can we start there Because you don't want to drink water, because it sucks? Okay, yeah, I can give that a go. Hmm.

Organic Food: A Classy Distraction

Ben 35:03

No cancer, Don't do it as always. It might come as always. It might come out, it might come out but nmu the evidence might show. We want evidence it might show that artificial sweeteners across the board are killing people but there's no study as of yet car Carciogenics we didn't mention that, but Top of the list for carciogenics Giving people cancer. The evidence at the moment does not show that to be the case. Okay, I think we're moving at a decent speed, but we are considering we've not Jeez Louise.

Ben 35:40

I think we'll have to probably miss out on. Well, let's do organic, even though it's a lot.

Fiona 35:47

Myth number four Organic food or a classy distraction. I like that. Organic food, a classy distraction. Organic is no synthetic pesticides, fertilisers, GMOs or artificial hormones.

Ben 36:04

What's a GMO? I was just thinking of a way to try and summarize what organic means, because I didn't even know what it means. You just hear the word organic and you think, okay, sorry, what does that actually mean?

Fiona 36:16

What does the word organic mean? They still use the pesticides.

Ben 36:18

They do, but just different ones. Well, let's get into the notes shall. But just different ones. Well, let's get into the notes, shall we? Oh?

Fiona 36:25

that actually is in the notes.

Ben 36:26

Oh, that's literally in the notes Right, that's great, yeah, fantastic.

Fiona 36:28

Fantastic notes. So natural doesn't mean safe. Cyanide is natural too.

Ben 36:35

True, there's this. Oh no, I think it's in the lecture. Actually, what is it? The natural fallacy?

Fiona 36:43

We've talked about this, have we? I think so yeah, I'm sure we've talked about it at some point of our lives. Well, you hear something that's natural.

Ben 36:50

Oh, that's it. Well, it's healthy isn't it, it's wonderful, it's the best. And there's a in the lecture. In one of the lectures there's an image of all these e-numbers. There's a label with all these e-numbers on it. It's like, oh my God, that looks so scary. Oh my God, what junk is that? Oh God, is that Diet Coke? Oh, is that one of those wanky little low-calorie chocolate bars? Oh God, blueberries.

Fiona 37:14

I love a blueberry.

Ben 37:15

Yeah, but based on that label, you'd go. Well, that's disgusting. Oh my God, that's going to kill me One. Oh my god, that's going to kill me. One lick of that and I'm dead. I may as well just take cyanide. Oh no, it's blueberries, right oh right, I've been there pretty good for you, maybe it's fruit. I love blueberries. Get your fruit in. I don't want to eat the blueberries now yeah, if you see the label, yeah, you wouldn't why is it so bad?

Ben 37:43

no sorry, oh dear, no, it's not, no, it's not, no, it's not, it's not bad, but why is the? Label so bad then, it's not. The stuff on the label isn't bad.

Fiona 37:50

That's the point oh right, okay, it's just me, but it looks scary it looks scary right, okay, I'm with you now, but it's blueberries

Ben 37:57

yeah, you've got to be on a panic now, now whatever diet you, I'm sure, like these carnivores, a lot of them, they're demonising fruit. That's where we are. The landscape now 2025, is many people are demonising fruit and veg and that's the standard. Talked about this before we talked about it. Men, people, men and women I'm sure Women, I don't know, actually, I'm sure there is Go into supermarkets topless, waving around broccoli, holding bags of oats. This is killing you. Can of Coke, diet Coke cancer?

Fiona 38:34

Yeah, but they're extremists.

Ben 38:37

Yeah, but there's lots of them.

Fiona 38:38

Yeah.

Ben 38:39

There's many of them.

Fiona 38:39

Yeah.

Ben 38:43

I'm sure there is Millions of followers because people get results, because if they follow these wacky diets, they will lose weight. They will improve their health. We've talked about the diets, the Twinkie diet. If it fits your macros, you can do all this wackiness and your health markers can still improve. You can still become a healthier person if you follow wacky diets, if your goal is to lose body fat and but it's because they have millions of followers. Millions of people, lots of people are watching this junk who might be severely overweight. Oh well, I was told that I should maybe cut down on this. I should cut down on my sugar. I should do that. No, oh God. Well, yeah, full fat, yeah, but someone said about this I need to get into a calorie deficit or something. Oh, calories, don't worry about calories. Calories are stupid.

Fiona 39:39

Eat loads of meat, full fat yoghurt pesticides residues on both organic and conventional foods are far below toxic thresholds. Slightly more oxidants, yes, but clinically insignificant, unless you're eating wheelbarrows of spinach.

Ben 39:55

Antioxidants yes, yeah, does that make sense?

Fiona 39:58

Yes, Pesticide-free food would rot before it reached itself. You want zero chemicals. Grow it, eat it raw and enjoy the parasites.

Ben 40:09

Yeah, so every food, most foods, most foods, there has to be some form of processing. Yes, so there's ultra-processed foods, but the word processed, oh, it's processed junk. I don't eat processed stuff. Ugh. Unless you swallowed it directly from the hen's arse, it would have gone through some form of processing.

Fiona 40:39

We do buy it from the hen's arse, near and off.

Ben 40:41

Right Most foods Some form of processing.

Fiona 40:47

Yes, of course your strawberries do that.

Ben 40:50

No, I know but it's not of course, is it? Yes, yeah, of course. It's easy to say, of course, the blueberries. What are these chumps talking about?

Fiona 40:59

It's something on something.

Ben 41:03

Something on something.

Fiona 41:04

Yeah, it's always something on something. It's always, yeah, some preservative on it. It has to be For a lot of stuff on it.

Ben 41:11

It has to be For a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, most stuff it's protest. There's some form of protesting, yeah.

Fiona 41:23

Yeah, so organic buyers are usually higher income, more active, less likely to smoke. If you sleep five hours, move 500 steps and eat clean, you're still not healthy, you're just broke and smug.

Ben 41:35

Right, does that make sense? I'm just saying, if you are, by all means, if you want to eat, we'll have to do an episode in the future about organic, because there's a lot to it. Well, I don't know, is there? There is, but is it actually that interesting? Maybe? Well, it is interesting To a degree. But if you have the means to eat mostly organic, great, no problem. It makes you feel better.

Ben 42:03

But you're not getting twice the benefits for paying twice as much you're maybe not paying twice as much, but for for paying a lot more, you're not getting a lot more benefits. The benefits are quite small, minuscule in many ways. So if you have the means to do it and if you just want to buy organic for peace of mind, no problem, great.

Fiona 42:28

Well, future.

Ben 42:29

But again, it's the demonizing, isn't it? It's the demonizing of non-organic foods. You must buy this food, yeah. If you can buy organic fruit and veg, yeah, probably Go for it. If you can't, don't worry about it, don't shit the bed too much. There's also, when it comes to organic and free range and all these labels, there's so many different labels, sometimes you don't do you know for sure what's going on?

Fiona 42:56

no, you don't. How much how?

Ben 42:57

much outside time. Do the, do the chickens get?

Fiona 43:00

yeah, how big's that, how big's the space it's that documents docu-series on whatever it is about the fish oh yes oh sea spirit.

Ben 43:09

Was it sea spirit? Yeah, I've never actually watched cowspiracy no, no, I'm not watching that. We should have. Yeah, if we had more time, we could have supplemented, we could have watched all these wacky documentaries.

Fiona 43:24

You don't know what's going on. And you just don't know what's going on in any of them. And if you do have somebody coming to visit a farm, you have noticed that they're coming to visit a farm. So you a farm, you have noticed that they're coming to visit a farm. So you can actually put these standards in place. You just have to practice them. You always have notice of somebody coming to. Oh, their health authorities are coming. We don't know when they're going to come, but they're going to come Because you have to, because you're showing up on somebody's property. You can't just do a spot check. Oh, is that not the case? No, I'm pretty sure.

Fiona 43:50

Well, you can do in other, other walks of life you can just well, if you're visiting a hospital and if you're visiting a shop session, if you're visiting anything like that, you have to give notice. You don't give notice of when you're coming, but you give notice that there is a visit plant right, okay, I'm not sure so I'm not too sure I might be talking.

Ben 44:07

Yeah, probably, but here we go again here we go again.

Fiona 44:10

A whole can of words.

Ben 44:12

Actually I'm a farmer.

Fiona 44:15

Actually I'm not.

Ben 44:16

Yeah, sorry mate.

Fiona 44:19

Sorry, but surely I don't know. Maybe not, but yeah, nobody knows, nobody knows. How do I know that they're corn-fed chicken? Well, their yolks are a lot more yellow.

Ben 44:32

Well, I'm sure they are, but you just don't quite know, dear for sure, you don't know the exact protocols that are going in place. Right, there you go. Is there a line to summarise? It Was that it.

Fiona 44:45

No, there's loads more to go.

Ben 44:46

Oh Christ, but let's be quick.

Fiona 44:49

The problem is no one agrees on what organic actually means. Are we talking about something grown in your nan's garden with zero intervention? Or are we talking about certified organic food that still uses pesticides, just with a label that sounds nicer? If you believe that there's not a secret government conspiracy trying to poison you through carrots, then the data is clear. The amount of pesticide residues on conventional food is so infinitesimally small it's not remotely harmful.

Fiona 45:22

Exposure levels are way below safety limits. And remember organic food still contains pesticide residues, just different ones. This is textbook, majoring in the minors. You take nine supplements. Nine supplements only eat organic, filter your water, but walk 500 steps a day and sleep 90 minutes at light at night and then wonder why you feel like crap. If you think pain twice as much will provide twice the nutrients, think again I said that already.

Ben 45:54

Yes.

Fiona 45:54

You did say that already.

Ben 45:55

And, of course, if you're doing all that, chances are you're very health seeking. So you might be, for the most part, doing a lot of stuff that is classed as health seeking yes, but sometimes not, if you're not doing the basics again, but you only insist on eating organic food.

Fiona 46:16

But you're not walking, smoking, drinking a lot, not exercising, kind of a bit, but your diet, your diet overall, just because it's organic is still not the best.

Ben 46:21

Not a lot of protein. Just buy an organic, won't cut it yes how's the light? Fiona's got a bit dark it's coming and going.

Fiona 46:34

Is it a bit dingy?

Ben 46:35

no, it's fine I'm meant to have this, this striking contrast. You know me, me over the darker side and you of the the light. I don't know if it comes across that way why would you do it that way, eager? Okay, we need to. Oh god, oh, that's a shame, it's good stuff there's some good stuff here but number five no, we, no, we're gonna have to move, move that we're going to have to no.

Fiona 46:54

Is there an optimal diet for health?

Ben 46:57

Right, yeah, myth number five was personalised nutrition, which we have touched upon before and we'll have to come back to that.

Fiona 47:02

He's talking about it.

Ben 47:03

We'll come back to it another time To be fair that one's going to be really quick Ben. No, it's okay. No, it's fine. Now, we've talked about it before. We did an episode about diabetes and continuous glucose monitors and we talked about the film Panic Room.

Fiona 47:18

Yes, we did.

Ben 47:19

Yes, links in, so if you want to listen to that, there's some stuff about the CGMs and glucose insulin spikes all sorts of nonsense. But for now we're going to have to move on.

Fiona 47:33

So is there an optimal diet for health, Ben?

Ben 47:38

So what I've done here, Fiona, is I've listed some of the countries and what their recommendations are for exercise and for dieting and nutrition, which I think is quite interesting.

Fiona 47:48

Yes, so Japan. Their focus is to enjoy meals, regularity and balance. Encourages grains, yes, white rice cereals. And portion structure Emphasises on cultural eating habits, not food fear. Why it's good it's practical, simple, built around routine balance and not demonising carbs. Eat rice, don't panic, just stop eating shit all day and calling it a lifestyle that was chat GBT. It's good point at mouth it is, it's nerding from you.

Ben 48:27

Norway, norway. This is good.

Fiona 48:29

This is probably the best one so they find Norway find the right balance between how much energy you consume through food. Right balance between how much energy you consume through food and drink and how much energy you use by being physically active like bloody hell.

Ben 48:41

That's it, isn't it.

Fiona 48:42

That's it, they've nailed it eat fish for dinner two to three times per week. Fish is also a great filling in sandwiches. Choose water as a thirst quencher. That's very basic, isn't it?

Ben 48:53

yeah, it Choose water as a thirst quencher. That's very basic, isn't it? Yeah, it can be like, aren't it? It can be, it can be very basic if you want it to be.

Fiona 49:00

Sweden.

Ben 49:03

Notably Sweden.

Fiona 49:04

Sweden.

Ben 49:05

Yeah.

Fiona 49:06

How do you say it Sweden?

Ben 49:08

Yes, that's fine.

Fiona 49:14

Yeah, great. Notable for rejecting low fat and embracing high carb fat in official advice. No, hang on, sorry. Notable for rejecting low fat and embracing low carb high fat in official that's wrong though, isn't it?

Ben 49:25

that's that's wrong. Just fucking chat. Gbt sucks rejecting low fat. Well, no, idiot, so you gotta check this stuff. Sometimes takes my notes and butchers them it's rejecting low fat and embracing low carb, high fat. Well, which one is it, buddy?

Fiona 49:42

Which one is it?

Ben 49:44

Yes, low carb, high fat Sweden.

Fiona 49:47

Right, you just do the first line, because it's confusing me now.

Ben 49:49

Right low carb.

Fiona 49:51

Just say it Ben.

Ben 49:52

Low carb, high fat.

Fiona 49:53

Low carb. High fat Low carb high fat.

Ben 49:54

That's what Sweden are advocating for, which is dubious.

Fiona 49:59

For rejecting or embracing.

Ben 50:02

They are embracing higher fat and lower carb diets.

Fiona 50:06

Right Notable for embracing lower carb, high fat. In official advice Eat fish two to three times per week.

Fiona 50:16

limit bread and processed meat fine pushes rap seed oil and keyhole branded products. Why it's mixed? Low carb, high fat focus isn't backed by long term data across populations. It's still overly focused on oil swaps and branding nonsense. The same country that sells cinnamon buns I don't know what this is populations it's still overly focused on oil swaps and branding nonsense. The same country that sells cinnamon buns by the bucket now wants you to eat lard and call it balance Cheers Sweden.

Ben 50:43

Yeah, I should have taken that out. I don't know, are they known for selling cinnamon buns Is?

Fiona 50:46

that a. Thing.

Ben 50:48

Yes.

Fiona 50:48

That is so you Cheers Sweden.

Ben 50:50

Is that? Yeah, sorry. Is Sweden known for selling cinnamon buns by the bucket load?

Fiona 50:56

I don't know, I don't.

Ben 50:58

Right, you have to be careful. They're saying chat GPT. This is. Again, just to confirm this is based on MNU evidence-based research, Evidence-based practice. My notes Chat GPT.

Fiona 51:11

Has Chat GPT, I just allow it to sometimes just say some stuff.

Ben 51:15

So cinnamon buns in Sweden. Not sure someone clarify that please.

Fiona 51:18

I don't think it likes the Sweden diet do we need to do America? Yes, okay, yes, of course, usa half your plate equals fruit and veg fine pushes low fat dairy still not good very protein. Go for the whole grains, cut sodium. Not good, very protein. Go for the whole grains, cut sodium. Saturated fat, added sugar. Why? It's a mess, heavily influenced by industry lobbying Outdated low-fat obsession and still shovels low-fat yogurt in every corner.

Ben 51:46

Shoves.

Fiona 51:47

Yeah, and still shoves.

Ben 51:48

Yeah.

Fiona 51:49

The country that's deep. The country that deep fries cheese is still pushing skim milk as the answer.

Ben 51:58

What's the low-fat stuff, isn't it? I think overall it's fine, it's okay, it's the low-fat, it's this whole low-fat product. Just yeah, oh God, depends what your goals are. But there's no, the evidence isn't there again, you must go for skim milk, you must. I used to for skim milk, you must.

Fiona 52:15

I used to drink skim milk all the time.

Ben 52:16

Have low fat everything.

Fiona 52:19

I don't mind it. To be fair, just milk. It's fine Watered down milk.

Ben 52:24

Low fat stuff and skim milk, it's not a problem, but it's just to push that across the country as a guidance. Push that across the country as a guidance. It's all about balance, isn't it?

Fiona 52:39

It is Ben Tribal populations and context why optimal is a moving target.

Ben 52:46

So do we need to preface some of this? So this is just based on tribes and groups of people around the world and how varied their diets are. Okay, some are high carb, some are low carb, high fat.

Fiona 53:01

Okay.

Ben 53:01

Okay.

Is There an Optimal Diet for Health?

Fiona 53:02

So first the Kitavans in Papua New Guinea. They follow a traditional diet of 69% starchy carbs mainly yams, sweet potato, fruit and coconut 21% fat mostly from the coconut. Coconut's fat, yeah 10% protein, which is mostly fish, high in saturated fat, low in processed food and almost zero dairy or grains. They smoke heavily but have extremely low rates of obesity, diabetes, heart disease and stroke. Remain lean and insulin sensitive.

Ben 53:34

Right, okay species, heart disease and stroke remain lean and insulin sensitive. Right, okay, quite high carb Like a cigarette.

Fiona 53:41

Did you drink booze, is it sir? No, smoke heavily. It doesn't say that.

Ben 53:45

Not sure about the booze, but yeah, by the sounds of it, in pretty good nick. Yeah, hmm.

Fiona 53:55

I can't say it Inuit.

Ben 53:57

Inuits.

Fiona 53:58

Inuits, the Inuit, the Arctic ingenuous populations, indigenous, ingenuous. They follow a traditional diet Up to 70% of animal fat Seal, whale and fish.

Ben 54:12

Penguin.

Fiona 54:13

No, not penguin. Yeah, they eat penguins.

Ben 54:15

They don't eat penguin. Yeah, they eat penguins.

Fiona 54:16

They don't eat penguins.

Ben 54:17

Why would they?

Fiona 54:17

eat penguins. Who eats penguin? Nobody eats penguin.

Ben 54:20

Good source of fat.

Fiona 54:21

No, it's not.

Ben 54:24

Barbecue a penguin.

Fiona 54:25

Ben, stop saying that.

Ben 54:27

Everyone's got to eat Fiona. They've just got to live off the land.

Fiona 54:29

Well, not all penguins. Very low in carbohydrate, high in omega-3s from marine sources.

Ben 54:35

Penguins.

Fiona 54:36

Show low rates of cardiovascular disease historically and obesity in traditional sessions.

Ben 54:42

Isn't that great what you can do if you just live off penguins.

Fiona 54:44

Basically, the key point to take away here is basically the opposite of the Kittivans. Yet still healthy Shows that matronutrient split isn't an issue, ultra-processed crap and lifestyle are.

Ben 54:58

Oh again. Yeah, you have to be careful, don't you? Because it's ultra-processed and demonising ultra-processed foods. That's not the case. We're not trying to do that. You can eat ultra-processed foods.

Fiona 55:11

Do as you want, mate. Do what you want Within reason.

Ben 55:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fiona 55:16

You're out, the Pima Indians, the Pima, the Pima, pima, pima, the Pima.

Ben 55:24

Indians. Now, this is interesting because it's comparing two different groups US versus Mexicano Mexico. Correct, yes.

Fiona 55:33

Genetically the same population. Mexican Pima Indians are still. Mexican Pima Indians still live traditionally. They are active, eat mostly beans, corn squash, low fat with high fibre. They have low rates of obesity and diabetes. Us Pima Indians in Arizona same genes but adapted Western diet and lifestyle sky high rates of obesity, metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes.

Ben 56:07

Yikes.

Fiona 56:08

So the Pima Indians of Arizona. They traditionally live off the land.

Ben 56:12

Yeah, this is the same group we've just said.

Fiona 56:14

Yes.

Ben 56:14

Yes, okay, yes, by all means clarify why they had to start living off a Western diet.

Fiona 56:26

Irrigation waters were diverted upstream in the 19th century and they could no longer grow crops. They then became dependent on government food programmes providing white flour, sugar, partially hydrogenated lard and canned goods. They now have the highest rate of diabetes in the Pima Indians.

Ben 56:47

Is it Pima Pima?

Fiona 56:48

Pima, pima, pima, 38%.

Ben 56:52

Right, well, there you go, yeah, that's. Oh, this is long, long, but this is probably worth is this from steven? Yeah, steven guillenay, oh, fantastic, the hungry brain. Need to read some more of his stuff. But we've mentioned the hungry brain in one of the episodes phenomenal, lots of science, but really good, really good. He was on a oh no. What's the guy called? Oh God, oh no, gary Tubbs. Gary Tubbs.

Ben 57:19

Well, gary Tubbs is is one of the the people that talks about the insulin hypothesis and talks about if calories are matched. Remember those podcasts we listened?

Fiona 57:27

to High, high carb diets. You will put on more body fat.

Ben 57:35

You'll put on more fat. Oh, huberman, he had some interest in things. No, huberman's fine, huberman's fine, he just he just talks about everything like he's an expert in everything. Very intelligent, so I get it. And if you build an audience as big as his, it almost gives you the right to in in your mind. Oh well, I'm an expert people want to listen to me. I'm going to just talk about absolutely everything, and some of the people that he gets on as well dubious. Just what about Chris?

Fiona 58:01

hello friends they're different so this is from Stephen Gienish Stephen.

Ben 58:06

Stephen. Sorry, did I call him Stephen? I'm hoping. I'm hoping I called him Stephen Gear now I hope I got his name right, because that's poor. Did I call him Stephen? I don't know, I think you did. I apologise.

Fiona 58:21

Stephen I apologise.

Ben 58:23

It's because of you. It's because of you and your filthy mouth. It's my dyslexia, it's contagious, hideous, and I'm just worried of time. You start talking about huberman. I want to like huberman shut up.

Fiona 58:37

I just want to do a side note.

Ben 58:38

That's a different star side note stefan guy and I stefan guillenay, we need to write back back to the pima. Pima, let's get this done. This is good. This is good from Stefan.

Fiona 58:54

Okay, I just need a moment. So much to edit, so much to edit Horrendous.

Ben 58:59

How much more have we got left? Oh my God.

Fiona 59:02

I'm trying here. The Pima are canaries in the coal mine, where we can learn a lot from them. Their health problems resemble those of other poor Americans and wealthier ones also to a lesser extent. This is because they are both eating similar types of things. The problem is creeping into society at large, however, as we trelly more and focus on processed wheat, corn, soya and sugar and less on wholesome food. Obesity in the US has doubled in the past 30 years, and childhood obesity has tripled. Diabetes is following suit. Life expectancy has begun to diminish in some poor parts of the country. Meanwhile, our diet is looking increasingly like Pima reservation food. It's time to learn a lesson from their tragedy food. It's time to learn a lesson from their tragedy.

Ben 59:55

Okay, okay, yeah, nice.

Fiona 59:58

So key point from that Same genes, different outcome. It's not the DNA, it's a supermarket and a caraculture.

Ben 1:00:05

Oh, again, god, he's really putting me in it this episode.

Fiona 1:00:08

Genetic loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger.

Ben 1:00:11

Yeah, we've done that loads of times. We have, of course, genes. We've talked about genes. They can have a genetics, they can have a big input, but in this case it's very much environment. Yes. Yes.

Fiona 1:00:30

Yes, I never knew about Bimas Bimas, bima Bima.

Ben 1:00:33

No, but it's just good. It's interesting, isn't it? It's interesting to go across different tribes and different groups of people to see, just confirms, isn't it? Seeing these people, seeing what they're eating across the world.

Fiona 1:00:49

Well, Japanese and the Chinese. They have quite rigid well, not rigid, but their diet is kind of just based on rice and stuff. And they've got. They're all very slim. Well, not all, but you know what I mean. It's just side note.

Ben 1:01:06

Think it out. Japan yeah, yeah, they're pretty. I would say, yeah, the average Japanese person is reasonably health-seeking. Yeah, they had a big thing, didn't they? We talked about this very briefly.

Fiona 1:01:17

Yeah, I remember us talking about it. That's what triggered my memory.

Ben 1:01:19

Was it post-World War II? Was it no? No, sorry, no, it would have been pre-World War II, wouldn't? It. Before the atrocities yeah. They had a big turnaround. They were like we because their nation was very unhealthy. We need to have a look at this, by God. They looked at it all right. They caused all sorts of mischief for a few years, Holy hell.

Fiona 1:01:44

So what's this? Is this a myth, or what? Health at any size and body positivity, that's not a myth, is it?

Ben 1:01:50

No, this is about optimal health. We need to get a shift on now.

Fiona 1:01:53

Yes, we're 7 out of 10, then, and the last page is nearly empty. So, health at any size and body positivity what actually matters? What's true? There are people with higher BMI who show normal blood markers, good metabolic health, active lifestyles. These are outliers. They exist, but they are not the majority. The problem, what's the HEAS?

Health at Any Size and Body Positivity

Ben 1:02:18

Health at any size.

Fiona 1:02:19

The HEAS message was meant to shift focus from thinness to behaviours, but the nuance got lost and you're fine as you are became the default message. Then weight loss drugs showed up and half the industry suddenly bailed on body positivity. Turns out, a lot of people were body positive until Wegovi got approved. Randy South Park, see ya.

Ben 1:02:45

Oh, have you seen that, fiona? Yeah, I just put that in. Yeah, well, it's true, isn't it? It's true More along the lines of the body positivity movement Lots of celebrities, lots of famous people. Oh my god, babe. Babe, you can be, you be any size you want, you're healthy, you're good, you're thriving.

Fiona 1:03:06

No, maybe not but then it was the. It's the. It was the extreme because you remember back 1990s, maybe 2000s, you had all of these shows on the TV and I remember her.

Ben 1:03:18

Biggest loser.

Fiona 1:03:18

Tyra Banks. Tyra Banks.

Ben 1:03:20

Oh yeah.

Fiona 1:03:21

She was literally somebody who might have been a pound over eight stone, this tall thing, skinny as could be, she was just like you're fat. Oh right, you're fat and these were unhealthy people.

Ben 1:03:32

She also had our own struggles with weight, didn't you?

Fiona 1:03:34

Yes, but we had, like, the lollipop heads. Remember Mary-Kate and Ashley Oslin. They were known to be lollipop heads because they were so skinny, their heads were actually too big for their body. So we've gone from that extreme to now this extreme, whereas be whatever size you want to be.

Ben 1:03:51

There doesn't ever seem to be any middle ground.

Fiona 1:03:52

There's no middle ground.

Ben 1:03:53

Hard to just get that middle ground. We won't name them celebrities because we're getting you know, with the MNU backing, we're getting more famous, so I don't want these celebrities who might have been on the bigger side, who are all about body positivity. You can be any size you want babe, yeah, maybe. You want babe, yeah. Maybe Are you healthy, though? Yes, chances are. We've talked about the outliers. There will be people that, by the looks of them, you think, oh well, okay, do they exercise?

Ben 1:04:25

What's their diet like? And they could be. They could be very healthy, very health seeking Genetics. Other things are playing a role. If you see someone walking down the street, they have to be very careful with this, don't you? How do you put this? If you see someone who looks to be overweight, smoking, drinking alcohol, you think, hmm, okay, chances are. If you went up to them and went, oh, are you? Would you say you're health-seeking, do you exercise? Do you move? What's your diet like? It might not be too good, they might not be moving that much, the diet might not be the best fiber's, low, low protein. But going back to lots of people raving about or glorifying the fact of you can be any size you want, don't worry about it.

Fiona 1:05:17

And, like we said, yes, you can be, but are you weight loss drugs came along.

Ben 1:05:21

So yeah, that's from south one. There's a bit where he joins a band. You've seen that one, randy, joins a boy band. Yeah, I joined a boy band and I just had to say goodbye to everyone. So, yeah, ya, just goes along. Says goodbye to the wife. Well, quite lights out powerful in here See, ya, that's literally what it was, wasn't it what?

Fiona 1:05:39

is it that's family guy with the B, that's a good one, the fly, I mean.

Ben 1:05:41

So, yeah, it's the body positivity movement In some ways not a bad thing. But a lot of weight they're off, all right, okay. What about everyone else then who aren't in a position to take these weight loss drugs? Can't afford personal trainers, right? Oh dear that's not very good, is it? Yeah, is there a better way of saying that Fiona? Is there a better way of saying that Fiona? Is there a better way of saying of linking that in to health at any size?

Fiona 1:06:19

I don't know. Well, it's just yes, be whatever size you want to be, but the question is are you healthy? That's it, that's all you have to say.

Ben 1:06:26

Yeah, that's pretty much, isn't it yeah?

Fiona 1:06:35

Yeah Right, Just hit the nail on the head Is weight loss always necessary? No, not always. But also not pursuing it doesn't mean you're healthy. Many people will benefit more from eating more fibre, getting stronger, improving sleep, managing stress, regular movement.

Ben 1:06:50

It's the same stuff, isn't it? It's the same crap different day. Well, it's the same crap.

Fiona 1:06:54

It's good stuff yeah, but you know what I mean but it's the same stuff.

Ben 1:06:57

It's for a lot of people that feel like they need to lose loads of weight, maybe, but it's about also adding stuff in losing weight and getting healthier. Automatically you might associate that with removing things, removing things that you enjoy and adding things in that suck. So I have to cut down on all the foods that I love. They all have to go. Put those in the bin. I have to exercise. I have to go to a gym. I hate that.

Ben 1:07:26

No wonder people don't do it Remove all the stuff that keeps them going, that makes them feel a little less shit every day, and add in all the stuff that they hate, that they've actively avoided all these years.

Fiona 1:07:36

So all of these improvements by moving faster whatever Ben just said can lower blood pressure, improve insulin sensitivity, reduce inflammation, improve mental health, all without focusing on the number on the scales. You see that all the time you've got somebody who's very obese or obese, doesn't have to be very obese and they've got chronic pain in their knees and they're advised to lose weight. They lose their weight, their knees get better because obviously you think of all the weight and all the pressure you're putting on your knees so many people, so many people that are, that are overweight that are in pain and a lot of times it's behaviour.

Ben 1:08:14

You've got to move more and eat less.

Fiona 1:08:15

You've got to move more and eat less. Come on, it's easy if you're carrying around an extra tree stone of wish, that's going to have an impact on your breathing as well. You'll be panting more when you're walking around. You'll find it harder to walk but it's not easy, is it?

Ben 1:08:31

it's not easy to do that it's not easy to say you have to do all these things. You have to start maybe thinking about removing some of the stuff that you enjoy that gets you through the day and adding in stuff that you hate, but it's. But.

Ben 1:08:46

I do find that it is a lot easier to work with people who aren't obsessed with a a number on the scale well, yeah it's all well and good if you have a lot of weight to lose, or you just, or your goal is to lose weight, yes, it's, there's. No, there's no problem with having a, a number in mind, but then you become fixated on it and then if you don't reach that number in my experience, you don't reach the number then it's like, oh well, that's, we'll spoil that.

Fiona 1:09:20

Then You're deflated and you give up.

Ben 1:09:24

So coming into a goal of losing weight but not worrying about how much weight you're losing, for a lot of people could be very beneficial, and let's try and add in as much as possible. Let's try and add in as many things as possible that are manageable, that doable, that don't completely suck, instead of removing 25 things on day one. Well, hang on. What so? What we got left? Left, fiona? What have we got left? Holy hell, do we need all that? Set it low. I should add that a lot of people who might be overweight will be, will find themselves actually quite strong. So starting to lift weights, getting in the gym pretty good, they can shift some serious weight around, they're strong. I'm not.

Ben 1:10:17

Their joints and ligaments are taking a bit of a pounding potentially, but in terms of how strong they are, yeah. Why is that? Well, they're carrying that mass around.

Fiona 1:10:26

Yeah, I suppose actually. Yeah, there is a need for tools to identify potential responders to weight loss treatment and to evaluate who will benefit from this treatment in terms of cardiometabolic risk at the level of the individual.

Ben 1:10:41

Finding ways like we've touched upon. It's an individual experience.

Fiona 1:10:46

So not everyone will benefit the same way from the same intervention, and that's fine.

Ben 1:10:51

Yes, okay, there is more there, but I think that's fine. Yes, okay, there is more there, but I think that's an okay amount. Do we need to speak about anything else?

Fiona 1:11:03

What about the weight stigma of real harm?

Ben 1:11:06

I don't know. You tell me, Is that interesting?

Fiona 1:11:07

Well, it's only half a page.

Ben 1:11:09

Okay, fine yeah finishing off. Skip that bit. Just start with weight stigma, holy hell.

Fiona 1:11:13

Weight stigma increases stress, worsens health behaviours and leads to poorer outcomes, even when BMI is controlled. Leads to avoidance of medical care, increased disordered eating, physical inactivity and increased allostatic load. The allostatic load is the accumulated wear and tear on the body caused by chronic stress and repeated physiological strain. So stigma itself becomes a physiological risk factor, independent of weight. You're told your weight is the health risk, but it might actually be the shame, the stress and the way you're treated. For it.

Ben 1:11:57

Good that is pretty good. Yeah, that's worth worth adding in again. We could probably speak about that in more depth, but time's ticking. Anything to add on that fiona? The whole point of this is for you to read the notes. Now, it might be just me being lazy, but one I am the talent, so I have to conserve my energy, but it's for you to read the notes and for you to go. That's that. That is interesting. Well, the allostatic lord is very interesting let's talk about that in more detail.

Fiona 1:12:21

I like the way you put it in the layman's terms. For me there it's good okay thank you anything to say about that?

Ben 1:12:28

no, it was just to differentiate between solely body fat weight and what that can lead to not just not exercising as much, not having a great diet, not having a balanced diet, but also all the other stresses and strains that it puts on you, which then make you avoid trying to do something about it. Yes, no, yes, nothing else to add.

Fiona 1:12:54

No no it's yeah interesting.

Ben 1:12:57

I don't know what you want me to say okay, I just thought you might want to say some stuff right then get your logo out right, nothing else tell us the mnua of optimization place okay, we've moved on go on hit me okay, yep oh, am I reading it. Yeah, why not? Well, you've done it all up to this point, yeah.

Fiona 1:13:16

I know I'm knackered.

Ben 1:13:17

Do we even need to write this? Yes, you're doing the MN. No, do we even need to write this, say this Do we need to, because it's just the same stuff again.

Fiona 1:13:28

Yes, but but is key? Mnu way of optimal eating is essentially less westernised or industrialised Limited ultra processed foods, limited refined carbohydrates, limited intake of trans processed fats. Emphasis on whole food sources of unsaturated fats, Eating in line with activity levels. Varied and flexible, Plant focused fibre variety Variety. How do you say that?

Ben 1:14:01

word Variety.

Fiona 1:14:01

Yeah, which are without meat and fish, but with a focus on adequate nutrition Protein, but with a focus on adequate protein Food, not too much, mostly plants.

Ben 1:14:14

Did that on the last one, did that on the last one. What that quote? But yeah, it's fine, michael Pollan, yeah, yeah.

Fiona 1:14:24

Am I reading about flexible dieting by Alan Aragon?

Ben 1:14:29

Alan Aragon. Aragon yeah, alan Aragon. Yeah, very good, very good, very good in the nutritional space, evidence-based. He has his own monthly research summary. Oh, what's it called? Sorry, alan, but it's no. He's good Flexible dieting. Read his book, consumed a lot of his material.

Fiona 1:14:49

The general public is utterly confused about what to eat for three main reasons. The general public is utterly confused about what to eat for three main reasons 1. Everybody eats and thus feels a sense of authority over this domain. 2. Dietary misinformation abounds in the mass media due to highly biased and or unqualified people with large audiences. 3latans Three the public lacks scientific literacy. Scientific literacy, which is the ability to discern scientifically valid information from hype and speculation, is important for navigation your way through the minefield of misinformation. Oh, he's good.

Ben 1:15:31

Good, good, alan. Yeah, yeah, that's well, there's a lot, there's a lot to get into on that. But yeah, everyone eats. I've said this before, haven't I? Yes, everybody eats.

Speaker 3 1:15:41

So everyone's got an opinion, I'm sure I wouldn't it's other subjects.

Ben 1:15:46

It's hard to sometimes have an opinion, but we do live in a society now. We live in a world where everyone can and they choose to have an opinion on everything, on every topic, because they've read something on twitter or they've skimmed an article and they would genuinely make an argument for something they have absolutely no idea about, and they would treat that person like an idiot if If they go.

Ben 1:16:14

Well, actually, I have done a lot of research on this and I do this, I do that, yeah, but you don't follow this person, do you? Have you not read that? Look at this, look at this article.

Fiona 1:16:24

But that's just defense, isn't it? Yeah, but it's.

Ben 1:16:26

MNU evidence-based practice. Yeah Well, you should know this, shouldn't you? That sugar kills. Artificial sweeteners gives you cancer. You should know this, then right, where have you got this from?

Fiona 1:16:44

your man from TikTok chat GPT.

Ben 1:16:48

That's why I have to be very careful, because you know a lot of people chat GPT great resource, but does talk a lot of crap. Chat gbt great resource, but does talk a lot of crap as well. You have to be very careful oh, I see even when you're feeding in notes, even when you're feeding in evidence based studies, research it's not always 100% lecture slides still comes out with just crap can you imagine life without chat gbt now well, you get by yeah.

Ben 1:17:17

It just shortens things. It can make doing this sort of thing a little bit less tedious. I'd spend yeah, I'd spend even longer putting all the notes together, but maybe I should, because it keeps creeping in with its random line. Oh, they're great though.

Fiona 1:17:33

Oh no, some of them are quite good, but you know straight away that it's not you.

Ben 1:17:36

You have to be careful. But it sounds like you, but it's not you. Yes, but that line sugar addiction. Well, where's that come from? Maybe I wrote something along the lines of yeah, well, sugar addiction is not physiologically, it's not a thing. Maybe I wrote it along the lines of that and then it just ignored that.

Fiona 1:17:52

Yeah, sugar addiction. You have to be careful with sugar addiction.

Ben 1:17:54

Oh no, oh dear, but it's a term that a lot of people use. A lot of people will say they are addicted to sugar. And this is the thing, isn't it? As Alan just said, this is the thing you have to be. People aren't talked about this. On the last episode, reading the research. I've just started to properly get into the research and try and read it. Doing MNU, the average person's just not doing it. I don't blame them. It's dense. A lot of it's boring. Yes. Not good, just this.

Fiona 1:18:28

Doom scrolling. We don't like that, do we? I do it, but anyway it's hard, isn't it?

Ben 1:18:33

You just do that and then someone four million followers, broccoli kills you. Sugar's addictive. Oh my God, look, four million followers. Oh yeah, I've seen a lot of his stuff. Yeah, he's good. Yeah, he's right. He's so right, tracy, have you seen that sugar is addictive? Is that Diet Coke Idiot? Yeah, that was very interesting.

Fiona 1:18:59

I like the PMA stuff Still rushed through it, but it's not bad. It's not bad, not bad gone Ben. It's not bad.

Ben 1:19:04

It's trying to keep it on topic. It's hard because you want to get into stuff, you want to flesh it out.

Fiona 1:19:10

But sometimes being short, to the point is key.

Ben 1:19:13

Sometimes, yeah, but sometimes being short to the point is key. Sometimes, yeah but when it's evidence-based. You want to be very careful. I don't want more people. I don't want to put the course in distro pew mnu. I'll be very careful but you haven't graduated yet, so you're okay, you're only no, I don't be very careful like this, like the guy, as long as I have the, the backing there to put in the comments what I'm saying yes, exactly, exactly, exactly.

Fiona 1:19:35

Right.

Ben 1:19:35

Right, so we didn't do a film.

Fiona 1:19:37

No, we didn't do a film Well, actually it is classified as a film, just a bit.

Ben 1:19:40

It's a documentary isn't it yeah? But it's a documentary film, right? So Did we summarise optimal health.

Fiona 1:19:49

You can go back and do that, because I'm getting really hungry now. Oh God yeah.

Ben 1:19:52

Oh dear. So, basically, there isn't anything, is there? There's no diet, it seems. There's no specific diet that you can follow for optimal health. All the same things apply throughout any diet you follow. Yes. Okay, great, brian Johnson.

Fiona 1:20:12

Don't die the man who wants to live forever.

Ben 1:20:15

Brian Johnson.

Fiona 1:20:16

So we watched a film on him, or a documentary film. So it explores Brian Johnson's extreme lifestyle and experimental medical treatments to defy ageing.

Ben 1:20:31

Sorry, is there a problem? A roll of the eyes? What's the?

Fiona 1:20:36

If I was a millionaire, I would not be spending my money like that Multi-millionaire, multi-millionaire.

Ben 1:20:42

No, as I said right at the start of the show, I'm glad that people like Brian Johnson exist. I'm glad he's doing what he's doing. Why not? Why not? Now? There's some things and we can get into the fact that he started to sell, like the blueprint and the supplements all of the olive oil for like 30 quid a bottle of cash, I think he's probably all right.

Ben 1:21:01

I think he's probably got enough in the bank. I think he's doing okay with the supplements and all the investments I'm sure he's made. I'm I'm sure he's okay right.

Fiona 1:21:11

Well, my main question and you've got it written down here, but my main question is on this film, docuseries, on whatever his name is just one.

Ben 1:21:21

Is this one of them?

Brian Johnson: The Man Who Wants to Live Forever

Fiona 1:21:21

it's not a series my main question is how does he know what's bloody working? He's doing so many different things that's gene therapy working. He's doing so many different things Gene therapy 91 plus pills, all sorts of medications, rapamycin.

Ben 1:21:37

I think he stopped that. Actually, I think he has stopped that. I think it wasn't doing him much good.

Fiona 1:21:40

Oh, it wasn't making him live longer. Well, there was probably so many different contraindications from all the other shite that he's taken. Oh goodness gracious, oh my God, char. Goodness gracious, oh my God, charlatan.

Ben 1:21:51

Go like Brian. Well, now be careful.

Fiona 1:21:55

Maybe take that bit out, be careful. But I just don't Brian.

Ben 1:21:58

please come on the show. Let's discuss.

Fiona 1:22:00

He what? How does he know what's working?

Ben 1:22:03

This is the hard part. He's putting so much shit into body this is the tricky part he's doing hair follicle stuff.

Fiona 1:22:09

He's doing well the hair follicle stuff like keep wearing his helmet.

Ben 1:22:13

That's, that's.

Fiona 1:22:14

That's fine, keep doing that he can't bloody go outside in the sunlight. Well, he does go outside, yeah, but he can't sit out in the sun, can he? He needs light machines and all sorts because of all of I don't know what he's doing right oh right, where do you start then?

Ben 1:22:29

yes, okay, so you. So you mentioned that. So so many different interventions at the same time has a whole team, but still must be hard to see what's working based on only trialling on himself. One of the guys in the documentary did mention that there's a tame trial about metformin. Right.

Ben 1:22:44

Which apparently is good for anti-aging, which Brian is taking. And then he's reached out, and other people have reached out, to ask brian to donate towards this tame trial so more people can take metformin and see what happens. And he, he didn't, but it's one of those things, isn't it? It's like, well, yeah, okay, but he's doing, it's his money. I've listened to a bit of his stuff and he does. He does come across as someone who's who's doing it for the greater good. He does try and put that across. He wants to make this stuff more accessible in the future so more people can have it and can start taking some of this stuff, which will then make it more affordable for the world.

Fiona 1:23:24

Yeah, but it's going to be a very, very long time before something like that is affordable to the world. Yes, exactly plus he doesn't know what exactly is working no, I know, but I I think that's.

Ben 1:23:37

I think he's just saying that he's like he's a very intelligent guy. Clearly he's a very intelligent guy, but I think for the most part he's just saying that really he might, he might start donating more money and and helping fund more research and more studies, more clinical trials, but I think it's very much just about him and his family and his son. I think he's very much just doing it for himself, which is absolutely fine. He doesn't need to do that. If it turns out that he can also in the future help other people, and which also then ultimately the goal is himself, if funding these trials can help him figure out what's worth taking, great I'm sure he'll do it. But even then it's based on the individual. So even if metformin, if you start, if he doesn't fund this trial and people start taking, thousands of people start taking different drugs that are meant to be good for anti-aging. It depends what the trial is. I guess with metformin, if it's just metformin, then you'll get some half-decent feedback based on the results from however many people are in it.

Fiona 1:24:45

Yeah, but he's never going to be. He'll be doing trials for absolute years because he's doing so much different things.

Ben 1:24:53

It's going to cost him a lot of money. Yeah, I guess that's the issue. If he wants to start trialling all of these drugs that he's taking, or even two of them, three of them.

Fiona 1:25:01

it's pretty penny, but even his gene replacement therapy or whatever he was doing when I last seen it. That's hundreds of thousands of pounds to do that. I last seen it that's hundreds of thousands of pounds to do that.

Ben 1:25:10

I think he's worth about 400 million.

Fiona 1:25:13

Yeah, but there has to be a point where he's going to run out of money because he's trying so many different things. I don't think so, he's paying for the gene therapy for himself, his father and his son.

Ben 1:25:21

Yeah, yeah, but he is making money. Oh yeah, if, even if he was just spending his money that he made from selling his business, I think he'd be all right.

Fiona 1:25:32

But he's got no life. His life is so regiment yeah, but Well, I suppose he's living for what?

Ben 1:25:38

he's doing so.

Fiona 1:25:39

I suppose that is his life, isn't it? So I get that, yeah, but this is the thing and I'm there with you, brian.

Ben 1:25:43

To a degree I'm there with you. His life was miserable. Life was miserable. He was miserable. This isn't an average person who's just lived a bit of a so-so life, did a job that he hated, made enough money to pay his bills. He's been very successful. He's made a lot of money, more than the average person will ever make in their numerous lifetimes. But he was fucking miserable. So all the stuff that he was doing, that society says you must do this, this, you must provide for your family, you must try make as much money as possible. La, la, la la. He was miserable the whole time. I'm sure there's times where he wakes up and thinks oh christ, he's human, maybe still currently, I don't think he is so I'm sure there's many times the fact that he he stops eating at 11 am.

Ben 1:26:27

Oh bloody hell, he's putting a shift in so 2,000 calories. I know that must be done based on his team and based on the feedback that that for him is optimal, but he must be in a constant calorie deficit. So it's almost like Brian. You seem like you move quite a lot. You train several times a week. By the looks of it, I think you could probably get away with bumping up your calories, couldn't you?

Fiona 1:26:48

At least go to maintenance. He probably has to keep a certain weight or something, doesn't he? Why not?

Ben 1:26:53

Because he'd be losing weight all the time, or he must be based on his I don't know what he weighs and his height, but I'm pretty sure 2000 calories based on his activity levels. I think that would be putting him in a deficit. It must be putting him in a deficit.

Ben 1:27:07

So I think he could bump that up a little bit, brian, and the fact that he's vegan, but that's through choice, which is that's good. I'm glad that he's not saying oh well, of course, optimal health, you have to be vegan, Because his son, what was his son called?

Fiona 1:27:27

Talmide.

Ben 1:27:28

Talmeed.

Fiona 1:27:29

Talide.

Ben 1:27:30

Have a look quickly, oh dear. But his son is is an omnivore, so that was good. I'm glad that all the stuff that he was coming out with he didn't say oh well, of course everyone needs to be a vegan. They must be plant based alright, fair enough good. Talmadge right yeah, talmadge, talmadge, right yeah.

Fiona 1:27:52

Talmadge.

Ben 1:27:52

Talmadge, god, brian, again, apologies, it's been a long episode. We've got for a lot.

Fiona 1:27:58

We have my little brain.

Ben 1:28:00

He was a Mormon, so he left the Mormon church and found a new religion in health and himself. Well, that was quite good.

Fiona 1:28:08

He's got the same name as the liver king Ben oh yeah, what are the chances?

Ben 1:28:11

What are the chances of that? Yeah, if it was ever a charlatan, it's the liver king. Oh boy. Yeah, shame we didn't watch that documentary. There's one recently out about the liver king. Couldn't watch it later, could have compared the two, but awful An awful blow.

Fiona 1:28:30

The naked photo shoot. Imagine your son walking home. I never know what I'm going to walk into. Yeah, oh, yeah, that's perfect. Oh, maybe move to the slight left. Oh, his little, his little ankle just fucked out well, look what's he.

Ben 1:28:43

47, he's looking pretty good he is looking young.

Fiona 1:28:45

I have to give him that.

Ben 1:28:46

I would just say, brian, just just get those calories up. Still finish eating at 11am, if you want. Not great is it? But I think you could get away with upping your calories a little bit.

Fiona 1:28:56

What's with the white vests? The three of them.

Speaker 3 1:28:59

Oh, it was lovely, the white vest trial. Well, it was for the photo shoot, wasn't?

Fiona 1:29:01

it, yeah, but they're all just very odd. Right, just an odd scene, I don't know, not the best, it's not the best, no, it's not the best.

Ben 1:29:16

What else have we got here? Organs speak for themselves.

Fiona 1:29:19

Yeah, okay so you don't let your brain decide what to eat. Your organ picks your food. Your organs pick your food. No, hang on. No, did he say that? Yes?

Ben 1:29:26

it sounds woo woo, but is he not basing it on on how they're, how they're aging and what they're reacting to?

Fiona 1:29:31

yeah, that's what he's not.

Ben 1:29:32

Yeah, he's not saying all me harry today fancies a I don't know burger oh there was something actually in the lectures in the last episode which I forgot to touch upon wackiness about eating based on the shape of your organ. Yeah, it's a thing kidney bean yes, bean.

Fiona 1:29:48

Yes In the shape of kidneys.

Ben 1:29:50

Exactly. Yes, nonsense, yes, sillyness like that, right, anything else, fiona? Oh, I know you're very hungry, oh, I'm very hungry. Chronological age versus the biological age yeah, so his heart's 37 and then his left ear's 64. But, what's the point of living forever if you're going to be deaf? He keeps saying about. He doesn't want to live forever. He just doesn't want to die. Don't die. He doesn't want to live forever. I just don't want to die.

Fiona 1:30:15

Yet.

Ben 1:30:16

Yes.

Fiona 1:30:16

Because he will get to a point where he will want to die Surely.

Ben 1:30:34

I'm interested as to what he's trying to achieve with how he's going to look. So he's trying to achieve looking as young as possible. So chronologically, he's always he can't stop himself aging. But then he is trying to do that, though, isn't?

Fiona 1:30:42

he as well. He's trying to. Yeah, he's doing the skin. Hang on, is he trying to do? No, he's not. Yes, he's only biologically.

Ben 1:30:47

So at the minute, so we age 12 months at the minute he's aging. He's taken four months off, so he's trying to chronologically stop the aging.

Fiona 1:30:55

Yeah, and and biologically no, he's not trying to stop the age and he's trying to lower, reduce it right so when he's when he's 78, he'll have the body of a 60 year old. When he's 120, he'll have the body of a 90 year old. Yes, just trying to get yes, so chronologically it's always, the age is going to be the age yeah but biologically, all the stuff that he's trying to do.

Ben 1:31:16

That's the point, but I don't think organ regeneration is not there yet, is it no? So even though he can start doing all this stuff and some of his organs will be, like his heart, for example, 10 years younger than his chronological age, it's still ageing. Yeah. So I'm guessing that's what he's trying to get across. He doesn't want to die. But he's willing to die trying. He will die. He will die eventually, but he's just going to get a lot more years out of life.

Fiona 1:31:48

Yeah, but he's also. He's kind of contradictory because he doesn't want to die, but he's willing to die, trying to reduce his age, because he said that at the beginning. Yes, well, that's fine, it's going to be for a purpose. He's got to experiment, hasn't he?

Ben 1:32:03

He's got to take all this stuff, which, yeah, but then, as he's got a whole team, I'm sure if something is going horribly wrong, his team of people will catch it in time.

Fiona 1:32:14

Oh yeah, this is. He's having blood tests every day.

Ben 1:32:16

This isn't working, so we need to get rid of this. Yeah, you can probably slow visible ageing. I've got here, yeah, skin energy, muscle, more than the internal ageing, the wear and tear of the organs. Right, I like the idea of dying at 120, but you look 70. And you're still functional. You're still moving around. At that age, you're still able to do pretty much everything that you do. It's just that your body has just given up. You still look and feel and move if you were half your age. It's just that we're not at the point yet. But this is what it's worth sticking around for, isn't it? For him and everyone else.

Fiona 1:32:52

Well, he's too far into it now to give up, so he has to keep taking it to the next level and the next level. But it's going to get to a point where there is not going to be a next level, because they've exhausted all options, because they're throwing everything into it.

Ben 1:33:04

But it's worth sticking around, isn't it? It's worth being around, it's interesting. Look after your health. Yeah, the next 10-20 years, it's worth being around, just out of interest. You may never be in a position to do what Brian's doing, but just see what happens. Hmm, I'm glad he's doing it. As I keep saying, I'm glad he exists, but it would be nice if you could live a little longer. But it's the quality. The quality improves, that's the thing. So you might live to 110, but your body, chronologically, you're 110, but your body feels like it's 70. Great, so up to your dying day, you're still moving around, you're still able to do everything you want to do and you feel pretty good. Yeah, yes, that sounds pretty good to me. I just don't know how long it's going to take for everyone to have access to what brian's doing, or just one it won't be a generation anyway a snippet as to what brian's doing, but then hopefully it turns out that whatever supplement he's taking, you don't need to be taking a hundred.

Ben 1:34:09

It might be three to five that are, for a lot of people, the thing that you need he's taking. You don't need to be taking 100. It might be 3 to 5 that are, for a lot of people, the thing that you need to be taking. So it might be accessible.

Ben 1:34:18

I might just do a master one the more he does, the more he finds okay. For me personally, these are the 3 to 5 imagine waking up, don't taking 56 pills, can't take 5. I'm there with you, brian. We should get him on the show we should do an episode.

Ben 1:34:36

It's interesting. Like we've said before, a lot of the stuff that he's doing I think does have it is backed in research. But a lot of that research again, and a lot of the studies and a lot of the things that have gone into it is done in rodent yeah, it says it at the beginning, doesn't it? Yeah, so it's again, brian, I'm there with you, I'm rooting for you, but you need to maybe start funding some of these trials.

Fiona 1:34:59

Why didn't he do the Metformin one? Surely, scott, that would have been a good one for him to do.

Ben 1:35:09

Well, because he this to be accessible for everyone but it's not.

Fiona 1:35:14

It's only ever going to be accessible for people who want money but it sounds good, doesn't it? It sounds he's getting all this what he's going to get it on the NHS?

Ben 1:35:19

yeah, but he's getting all this stuff done. He's going to Honduras. He's getting all this experimental stuff done. He's doing all this stuff and it sounds good, doesn't?

Ben 1:35:32

it sounds good to say I'm doing this for the greater good. Of course, this is for me and my family, and I want to feel good. I want, I want to live. I want to live as long as possible. My quality of life, lifespan versus health span, health span that's what I'm focusing on. He's not an idiot. He's a very intelligent guy and it always will sound good to say I'm doing it for me, but I'm also doing it for the world. Keep going, brian, keep running. I'm going to follow him now actually. No, I'm going to stop following him. Might listen to him a bit more.

Fiona 1:36:05

It's quite interesting, isn't it? You do that.

Ben 1:36:09

Not sure about your supplements, though blueprint. They're quite expensive. Olive oil was like 30 quid a bowl. Oh, I don't know, I don't know everyone, not sure, not sure, brian, but hey, you gotta make some money. You've got plenty, but there's always more to make.

Fiona 1:36:23

Exactly, okay, oh boy, oh, that's uh that's a job and a half, not for me, that's gonna require some editing. Wow, yep, okie dokie okay, where can you find push pull health?

Ben 1:36:35

youtube full episode. It's. It's turned into a a long one very long, but full episode is on youtube.

Fiona 1:36:41

Ben push pull health where can you find mnu m yeah?

Ben 1:36:47

mnu mac nutritioncouk dear I should know this. Go on Google, type in MNU nutrition. It'll come up, it'll be there.

Fiona 1:36:55

Well, thank you very much. Good night and God bless.

Ben 1:36:58

Push for health.

Fiona 1:36:59

Imagine he's finished eating his 2,000 calories for the day and I haven't eaten one thing yet, and it's quarter to 12.

Ben 1:37:05

Well, he does say, doesn't he in the episode. He does say in the documentary that it's quite sad the last bite of his nutty treat.

Fiona 1:37:11

I haven't had one bite yet.

Ben 1:37:12

Yeah, that is quite sad, but he's very busy, isn't he?

Fiona 1:37:16

So I'm sure he Imagine how hungry I'd be.

Ben 1:37:17

I'd just say Brian, Brian, you move, you work out every day. Give yourself a bit more calories. I'd be calories a little bit. I.