What Is Causing Male Body Dysmorphia?

What if the “ideal body” started as a philosophy lesson? 

We kick off with the Greek blueprint for symmetry and virtue, then fast-forward through Sandow’s stage poses, Steve Reeves’ natural benchmark, and the cinematic spark of Pumping Iron. From there, the story bends: testosterone enters gyms, the Golden Era balances mass with clean lines, and the nineties push size to the edge with Dorian Yates and Ronnie Coleman redefining conditioning. You’ll hear how training volume dropped, intensity spiked, and once-human shapes gave way to cartoonish mass.

We unpack the culture around physiques, too, and how Hollywood transformations set impossible clocks with dehydration, diuretics, and carb tricks for a single day of filming. We talk Liver King and “fake natties,” how influencer economies thrive on denial, and why the industry keeps rewarding behaviours that would look like disordered eating anywhere else. The core tension surfaces clearly: when does discipline become obsession, and why does looking better so often mean feeling worse?

If you train, coach, or care about your health, you’ll come away with a grounded sense of what’s real: the likely lifetime muscle gain for natural lifters, the health costs of PEDs and SARMs, and a practical lens to judge claims online. We don’t preach; we put the history, the hype, and the hard truths side by side so you can decide what you’re chasing and why it matters. Enjoy the ride through physiques, film, and physiology—and if this episode got you thinking, follow the show, share it with a friend who lifts, and leave a quick review to help more people find us.

With a temper as short as her legs, Fiona joins Ben every week to forcefully "Push Your Health From The Pulls Of Life."

Expect Foul-mouthed narcissistic ramblings on fitness, nutrition, film, and life's daily rot.

This weekly audio & video expansion on the world-famous 'The Daily (ish) Rot' email and video ramblings also includes:

Usefully Useless Fitness and Diet Advice.
Half-arsed film reviews.
The exploitation of children.
True Crime recommendations.
Nutritious leprechaun-inspired recipes (short and to the point)
Narcissistic wisdom.

WHO THE FU*K ARE WE?

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Transcript

Opening Banter And Set Up

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Yes, one more time.

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Okay. One. Two. Three. Hi, Ben.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Let's go. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:10

You well?

SPEAKER_01 0:10

I'm well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Stressed?

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Why are you stressed?

SPEAKER_02 0:13

M MU.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Extra cash this morning. No tie. Creased. MNU.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

And who are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Ben. Push, pull, health. In association with M and U. Am I allowed to say that? Probably not.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

You will be.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Okay, let's get this done. Very stressed. Exams just around the corner. But I wanted to eke out some time to do this. Because this is meant to de-stress me. And act as revision. It's now. Not this episode, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

What it doesn't de-stress you or it doesn't act as revision or a bit of bullshit. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Just to clarify, that's all. What about the setup, Ben? Can we appreciate the lights? No one cares. The curtains. It's the camera.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

The curtains is nice, yeah. That's that's nice. Yeah, came on all by myself. That's a nice addition. So previous episodes where the light has hit your face and we can't see you.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

That's not a that's you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Just pull the curtains across. Just pull them across.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I did today. How many episodes are we in?

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Okay, no rambling. Apart from the fact that you have now committed to doing a photography lighting course.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

I have not.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

You have?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

I have not.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

What's the spare time you've got? Have you seen the Escobar meme? There it is. Walking and talking. Just so much spare time.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

I don't have spare time. Anyhow, what's the subject today, Ben?

SPEAKER_02 1:54

You tell me, Fiona, right? We should preface this.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Preface always.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

So it's bodybuilding. Oh. It's bodybuilding. One of the lectures is about prepping for a bodybuilding show. Or prepping a bodybuilder for a show. And originally it was going to be bodybuilding and eating disorders.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Two big subjects.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Oh, yes. Yes. Mercifully, very stressed. Eating disorders, separate episode. It's a very sensitive subject.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Needs to be taken seriously. The film choice. Dubious.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Very dubious.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

For the eating disorder episode. Not this one. Film choice perfect.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yeah, so there we go. That's enough.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Okay. And composing myself.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Okay. Quite a lot of notes here, Fiona. So I don't have too much time. So let's just correl them through so I can get back to revising four. Mm-hmm.

Framing The Topic: Bodybuilding

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Thinner or bigger. So the origins of the ideal male physique. Do we need to preface this at all? Comes from ancient Greece. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Sorry, do we need to preface it? We're going to go for the origins. The origins of bodybuilding.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

It's interesting. So the ancient Greeks celebrated symmetry.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Sorry, sorry, Fiona. So let's.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

If it's not in the notes.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

I apologize. Let me just I feel like we should preface it sometime. Preface it. Bodybuilding. We're going to go through the origins very briefly. Before we then get into the lecture around prepping a bodybuilder for a show. Went down a rabbit hole, kind of. Stuck my head in a little bit at a look. Well, this is this is interesting. But I'm too stressed to go down to fully go down the rabbit hole. I did have one more thing to say.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Chicken and Broadway.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

That as well, we'll get to that, yes, later. When you start in the gym, when you start doing some some training in the gym, hypertrophy, strength training, whatever it is, physique building, what are we calling it? When you start lifting weights.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Building muscles.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

When you start pursuing big muscles like me. Like mine. Naturally, bodybuilding is part of it. So you can't avoid it.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

That's pretty much it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Oh right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

We'll get into it.

Greek Roots Of The Ideal Physique

SPEAKER_01 4:22

So can I read it now? Okay. So the origins of the ideal male physique. Ancient Greece celebrated symmetry, proportion, and the balance between mind and body. The gymnasium literally meant school for naked exercise.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Training was as much about physology. Physology and nobility as it was about strength. Philosophy. Why couldn't I say it?

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Second line. We're just warming up. That's what we do there.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

I don't do that. No, we used to do that. Philosophy and nobility as it was about strength.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Maybe, maybe do that again. Do that line again. Apologies, I jumped in.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

The gymnasium literally meant school for naked exercise. Training was as much about philosophy and nobility as it was about strength.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

That's lovely. Socrates.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Very good. Masculinity was tied to nobility, not lust.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

This is for you, this line, Fiona.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

The ideal male body was broad-shouldered, lean, symmetrical.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Oh no, sorry, it's not. No, no, no, not this line. Apologies.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

And included small genitals, which symbolise self-control rather than depriv depravity. Depravity?

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Depravity.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Depravity. Okay, and even included small genitals, which symbolise self-control rather rather than depravity.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Mmm. Maybe maybe we'll just skip that line. We'll skip that line. Okay. We'll skip that line. That's fine. Moving on. Good. Anything to say about that?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

No, it's it's good. I like these notes. The 19th century, Eugene Shando. Sando. You're okay over that. Sando.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Sando, yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Known as the father of bodybuilding, built his look specifically to replicate Greek status. He performed on stage.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Statues.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Shall I star again?

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Oh no, come on. That's let's come on. That's why we have to warm up. We have to you have to warm up, Fiona. You do, you gotta warm up. You gotta do that stuff. You've got to. You can't just roll out of bed and just start rattling off these notes. Doesn't happen. The best in the well, they warm up. They spend time warming up. Like bodybuilders. Like bodybuilders do. They don't just go in and start lifting heavy weights. You gotta warm the body up. You gotta warm the muscles up.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Whenever you're ready, Ben, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Physical and mental. Gotta warm these up and this up.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

He performed on stage, flexed, and they came to first fitness set celebrity.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Okay, right, here we go. Come on. Okay. Let's focus. We'll keep this in, it's fine. It's all part of the part of the experience. You sit down with the family, you watch this, you think, oh, these guys, they're trying the best. It's not perfect. Behind the scenes, this is what you get.

Sandow And Early Aesthetics

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Just shut up. The Mr. Olympia trophy is still named after him. Early bodybuilding was about anesthetics and health, not extreme mass. It remained niche entertainment closer to circus speculate than mainstream sport. Spectacle, I meant to say.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Wow. Okay. It's fine because we get the gist, but this is this is a pretty poor performance so far.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Well, do you want to bloody read it, Ben?

SPEAKER_02 8:10

I'm a talent, I need to conserve my energy. Okay, did that make sense, Fiona? Is it worth rattling that off again very quickly? Oh, for God's sake. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

19th century Eugene Sandal, known as the father of bodybuilding, built his look specifically to replicate Greek statues. He performed on stage, flexed, and became the first true fitness celebrity. Celebrity. The Mr. Via Trophy is still named after him.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

It is.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Early bodybuilding was about anaesthetics and health, not extreme mass. It remained a niche entertainment closer to circus spectacle than mainstream sport. Aesthetics. What did I say? Aesthetics.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

No, you said. What did you say? Touch my hand then. Focus. It needs to make some kind of sense, doesn't it? There's a limit. Anything to say about that, Fiona?

SPEAKER_01 9:04

No, Ben. Nothing to say about it.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

How are you doing over there?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

I'm absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Are you parched?

SPEAKER_01 9:09

No, I'm fine. No, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Right, okay. We've warmed up. We're good. We're ready to go. So sandal. That's where it all began. Began begun. Began begun. Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Okay. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Okay, so pre-steroid champions. Stephen Reeves in the 1940s-50s. He was six foot one, two hundred and fifteen pounds, and he was admired for symmetry and proportion. His physique was aesthetic, achievely na achieved achievable naturally. Achieved naturally, and often held up as the pinnacle of what training and diet could do before drugs reshaped the sport. It's a shame, isn't it? Who was the other one?

SPEAKER_02 9:55

I was wondering who I was missing. Reg Parks. This was Arnold Schwarzenegger's idol. Oh yeah. Yes, Reg Parks. He was from Leeds.

Pre‑Steroid Champions And Symmetry

SPEAKER_01 10:10

And then what happens, Ben? Steroids enter the picture. So in 1935, Ernest Laqueer isolated testosterone from thousands of bull testicles.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Oh, and we'll come back to bull testicles, Fiona. Oh, they're very relevant today. Which is a shame.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

It was first used medically to treat so-called male menopause. Menopause. Depression and low libido.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Apparently.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

In 1952, Helsinki Olympics, Soviet waste lifters suddenly dominated. Later linked to testosterone use.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Oh, those Soviets, eh?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Then 1954, Dr. John Zelger introduced synthetic testosterone to American lifters at York Barbell, injecting John Grimmick. That was the burst birth of anabolic steroid use in bodybuilding.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

I believe so, yeah. Yeah. So I guess you can take from that. Anything pre-1950s in terms of physiques should have been natural.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Where is all the studies back then? Was there any studies or did you just decide to inject people? Were testosterone? I think there were studies, yeah. Was there? In 1950s.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Yes, they've been doing studies a long time, Fiona.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Yes, I know that, but I just I just it just feels like a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Which part do you need studies for?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Well, I don't know, it just seems a bit unsafe. It's come from bull testicles and then there's Well, there's a big there's a big gap there, isn't there?

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah, there is a big gap between 1935 to 1954. 20 years now, 29, yes. So the point is based on that, all the physiques that we've talked about pre-1950, natural. Achievable naturally. Diana Ball.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

It was released soon after and quickly spread through bodybuilding circles, making drug use systematic rather than ex experimental. This discovery shifted bodybuilding away from natural progression and into a chemical arms race.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Okay, what do you think about that, Fiona? Anything other than the studies?

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Very interesting. There were studies, very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Okay, excellent.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

But what if if it was achieved naturally, then why did they have to introduce steroids? Because it was quicker. And there's only so much the body can do. Is that what is that why?

Testosterone Arrives And The Arms Race

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Just getting more muscle, just trying to get bigger and bigger.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

And is it quicker, obviously, to inject than it would be to do that? I'm assuming it is a lot quicker.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

What do you mean quicker? In terms of gaining the muscle. Yes, and and you're able to gain more.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

You go far and beyond your genetic ceiling.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

But the point is you still gotta train hard. It's all well and good saying that all these bodybuilders taking steroids, they're taking the easy route. No. And I'm not a big fan of bodybuilding or bodybuilders. But it's it's tough. They've got to put a shift in. Yes, they do. Still got to put a shift in.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

And then we have Irony and a Golden Era in the 1960s to the 70s.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Yeah, late 60s. Late 60s. Mostly 70s. Pumping iron, 1975, which we'll get to. Oh no, sorry, 1977. Based on the 1975 Olympia.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

I was just gonna correct you there. Arnold Schwartzniger.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Kind of.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Franco Colombo. Frank.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

The other two should be easier.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Frank Zayn.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

And Serge Newbert.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Nubray. Just some examples. It wasn't just Arnie. There was quite a lot of fantastic bodybuilders during this period. The Golden Years.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Sergio Olivia, the only man to beat Arnold on the Olympia Sky.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Oh yes, that's worth noting. I believe that was late 60s. 69 maybe.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah, around then.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Yeah, fantastic physique. Yeah. Beat Arnold. Unheard of.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Hmm. How's Arnie now?

SPEAKER_02 14:38

What's he doing? He's pushing 80. Yeah. So he's he still trains every day. I believe he still gets on his bike and cycles down to Goal's gym in Venice.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Imagine that coming across him, cycling on his bike.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah, I think it's a thing. I imagine he's got lots of security.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yeah, well.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Next to him.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

So the golden era was era was about mass. The golden era. The golden era was mass, but always balanced with anesthetics and symmetry.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Oh, that's what you said. Anaphetics. Anas an aesthetics?

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Did I?

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Whatever.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Aesthetics.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Fo flowing proportions, wide shoulders, small waistlines, and a classic V taper. Oh, we know all about the V.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Do we?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yeah, remember you tried to get it. Well, you didn't get it.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Got it now.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Yeah, remember the V.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Yes, I have a V V shape now.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. In training, high volume, hours in the gym daily, a big focus on the mind-muscle connection. Oh yes. Pumping iron in 1977 took bodybuilding mainstream. Arnie became a Hollywood star cementing bodybuilding in popular culture.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Forgot about Lou Ferrigno. The Hulk.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Oh the Hulk.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Yes. Do you know Lou Ferrigno?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Is he yes? I know that name. I don't know the Hulk.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

He played the Hulk. In the the TV show, The Hulk. The Incredible Hulk. Big guy. Big bloke. He was Arnold's main rival during that 1975 Olympia.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

But he didn't beat Arnold. Sergio did. He was, you know, he was in phenomenal shape.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

I'm sure some would argue that he should have beaten Arnold.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Really?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

And the fact I'm not quite sure why he didn't win an Olympia after. Arnold retired in 1975. I don't know how Lou Ferrigna didn't win an Olympia. Not sure. Not quite sure what happened.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Who won after Ernie then?

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Oh, lots of people.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Colombo won a few times.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Did Frank Zayn win? Was he not in phenomenal shape as well, then?

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Who?

Golden Era: Arnold And Aesthetics

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Frank Colombo. Well, they all were. So what what did your man have over Franco?

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Who? Arnold?

SPEAKER_01 16:53

No, the other dude. That should have won against Ernie that you just said.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Lou Frigner.

unknown 16:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Well, nothing because he didn't win. He was just in phenomenal shame. Big blow.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

So even though drug assisted, these physiques still looked human and aspirational. Big but not grotesque.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Yes, that's a good point, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 17:14

So they still look normal.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

This was the end, this was the last. This era marked the the end of physiques. I think most people would look at Arnold and still say, within reason, that's that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

He was very big.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

It was big, yeah, it was big blow. Huge. Yeah, big blow.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

But was he grotesque?

SPEAKER_01 17:34

No.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

No. We get into the the 80s and the 90s. It starts to become a little bit grotesque. See, I only Because it's just trying to get as big as possible. Bigger and bigger and bigger.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah, well then it's taking that, it's taking it to the extreme, isn't it? And then it becomes looking fake. Well not fake, but gross.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

If you're into bodybuilding, yeah. I guess it's more muscle group. Lovely.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

The more muscle, the better. It's my slippers.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Oh, okay. But yes, I think the the general consensus would be that Arnold, in terms of bodybuilding. That was the peak.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

So the 1980s, the 1980 comeback.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Oh, this is Arnold. He came back in the 1980 Olympia. Yeah. He was he was training for what's the film? Conan the Barbarian.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

And I think he was just like, oh, do you know what I'm in pretty good Nick? Let's just let's just go and do the Olympia.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

But he didn't look as good as Mike Menzer or Chris Dickerson.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

He didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

No, so there's a lot of controversy around that, wasn't there?

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Yes, there was. He looked he looked pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

But but were these guys starting to take it to the next extreme then?

SPEAKER_02 18:43

But it was just controversial because he just turned up.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

So no one knew he was gonna be in it and he just turned up. So oh hi, yeah. Oh, it's Arnold, here he is. Oh you're just watching. No, I'm just gonna get in the speed out, just compete. Why not? It's pretty sickening, isn't it, really? Yeah. He was in great shape. Of course he was. He's always in great shape. I don't think he had specifically trained to do the Olympia. And these guys were there trained for several months to be in the Olympia. And Arnold shows up, everyone goes nuts. Oh my god, it's Arnold.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Who won? Arnold.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Yeah, that's that.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

It wouldn't be controversial otherwise, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Well, I don't know. I just thought him just showing up was quite controversial.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

But the fact that it was Arnold, a lot of people say that he got gifted the 1980 Olympia trophy.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

The Eugene Sandau trophy.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Lee Hanley, who was in the 1980s, he brought in a new level of conditioning and size.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Haney.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Sorry?

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Sorry, yes, continue.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Lee Haney in the 1980s brought in a new level of conditioning and size, but still carried the aesthetics of the golden era. Stimulate, don't annihilate. What is mantra? Balance size with proportions.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Yes, Mike Benser. Oh, yep. Who we've mentioned. Begin to hit, which we'll get into in a minute. There's a there's a gentleman.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Interval training.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yes, but based on more intense, shorter bursts, shorter workouts, not training as much. So instead of training five or six days a week for an hour and a half, two hours, Mike Mensah was three to four days a week, shorter sessions.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

So that goes against what Lee Haney's saying here about stimulate, don't annihilate the muscle. And this then feeds into the Mass Monster era and a certain Dorian Yates.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Dorian Yates.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Oh big bloke.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

So the Mass Monster era was between the 1980s to the 90s. The shift from balance to sheer mass. Dorian Yates, he introduced grainy, dense, brutally conditioned muscles. Training was high intensity, brutally heavy, lower volume than Arnold's era.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

So three to four days a week, 45 minute sessions.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Ronnie Coleman took size and conditioning to a level never seen before. He was eight times Mr. Olympia. On stage at 290 pounds with shredded detail.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

It's a lot, isn't it? Yeah, that is a lot. Having Arnold on stage was what? 215, 220, maybe. Maybe. Maybe a little less.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

I'm gonna have to Google this guy now.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Ronnie Coleman. You must have seen Ronnie Coleman.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

I think I have, yeah, I recognize that.

Controversies And The 1980 Comeback

SPEAKER_02 21:51

The thing about Ronnie Coleman is that, yeah, he was a freak. But yeah, the abs were a bit. He was just too big. He was just so big that he's the gut was there a little bit. His abs weren't great. Just too big. You know, 290, I'm sure some of these bodybuilders would have would have crept up towards those numbers off season when they were going for a bulk. But to step on stage that weight when you're meant to be shredded to the bow. Jeez. Insane. Dorian Yates, do we do we need to mention anything more about Dorian Yates? He was known as the Shadow. He used to go on. Sorry, Dorian. He used to go back to his little gym in Birmingham, I think. It was like a dungeon. Really bleak. Dark. And no one used to see him. He used to go off to his little dungeon in Birmingham, do his training, and then just turn up and wow, the audience, win the show. Used to wear baggy clothes all the time, so you could not quite tell how big he was, what condition he was in, but he was known as a shadow. Just swept in and stole the show.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Anything else, Vierina? Anything else here?

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Marcus Ruell.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Oh Christ. Yeah, you should see this guy.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Cartoonish in size. Oh, ridiculous. A symbol of the bigger at all costs mentality.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

I think I've seen a picture of him.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Just obscene.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

He looks gross. It's the neck, isn't it? He doesn't have a neck.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

He's got the traps are quite something, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah, he doesn't have a neck. Well he does, but he doesn't read it. The traps are.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

I believe he beat Ronnie Coleman in one of the not the Olympia, but in one of the early 2000s, he beat him at one of the shows. Absolutely obscene. Even bigger, actually, than Ronnie Coleman. At this particular show.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Absolutely obscene. Obscene. Interesting bloke, I think. I think he off season he used to just drink and smoke and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Really? And then he just whipped himself back and he didn't live the life, no.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

But I think a lot of bodybuilders would would sometimes just go off and train a little bit, but just put on a lot of mass and then just go, right, okay, here we go. Olympia season. Let's start injecting again. Let's start training in the gym. Oh my god, look at them. There they go.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

That must be so hard though. Getting back into that. After being like drinking, smoking, doing whatever.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Well, I think I think Marcus Rawl was was a one-off. I don't think they're all doing that.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

They were they were putting on.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

You should have to have a certain level of discipline.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

They maybe weren't training as much. So they were training less and eating more, but they weren't, yeah, they weren't going off getting drunk and smoking.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

But yeah, have a look. Maybe I'll link it in. Marcus Rawl, 2000 and I don't know, 2002 at this particular show. Just obscene.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

You're gonna have to say that word for me. The bubblegut.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Where are we?

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Palumboism.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Dave so the guy, this is from a guy called Dave Palumbo.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah. Palumboism?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Palumboism. Which is, as Ben says, the gut or the bubble guts.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

The bubble guts, this is yeah.

Mass Monsters: Yates To Coleman

SPEAKER_01 25:17

It's caused by the heavy use of growth hormone and insulin. It leads to enlarged visceral organs and extended stomachs, even while shredded. Physiques look huge, but stomachs protrude. Ruining symmetry and aesthetics. The once inspiring look of bodybuilding became for many a grotesque spectacle.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

What's the use of the word grotesque?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yes. I don't really like that word. Well, it's just I always wonder how you um how you say it. I always have to think about it.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Or grotesque.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

It's quite a strong word.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

It is. Grotesque.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Dave Palumbo, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

So he does come from bubble he bubblegut.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yes, still had abs.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

But a lot of these bodybuilders did suffer from the old bubble gut, so they had just a a stomach with abs on. Just looked a bit off. Dave Palumbo got into keto, big keto guy. We mentioned the MCT oils. Oh, he was all about those. Oh, he loves that. MCT oil.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

What's that?

SPEAKER_02 26:23

We mentioned this previously, you know, with the bulletproof coffee.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Oh, yes, yes, yes. Now I remember.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

I believe Dave Palumbo. Well I should know I'm I'm pretty sure a lot of the I'm pretty sure the bodybuilders in Arnold's area were weren't massively high carb. I think they were eating more along the lines of keto. Lots of meat, cheese, cream.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

That's high in calories, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah, I think a lot of those bodybuilders weren't eating. I think a lot of them weren't eating massive amounts of carbs. Maybe as they got closer towards the show, the carbs went up. But Dave Palumbo was this guy who who started doing keto in the 90s. Dave Palumbo went to McDonald's or somewhere and just bought loads of burgers. Lots of foods that were high in sodium. And he got all these his veins popping, and everyone was like, My god, what's this guy using? Everyone thought he was using some drug that they weren't aware of.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

No, it's just food.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

And he was like, No, I've just just eaten loads of meat and cheese and lots of sodium. So he was like, oh hang on a minute, is this a thing? Maybe I should cut the carbs and try this instead.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

And that's how interesting.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

No, that's just what he started doing. Yeah. But the point is he started doing that in the 90s, I think it was the 90s.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

And then everyone followed the side.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

But I'm pretty sure. Well no, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't know the ins and outs you see, Fiona.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

But I'm pretty sure the golden era with Arnie, a lot of them were doing similar things. They were eating high protein, but high fat as well. It wasn't just eating loads and loads of white rice and oats.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Anyway, we've got a lot to get through. If people are watching, please let me know. People who are into bodybuilding, aficionados.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

So what about modern body standards? So from 2000s to now. So Hollywood transformations. We've got Hugh Jackman, known for Wolverine. Chris Hemsworth, Thor. Henry Cavell, Spider-Man, and of course of course.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Superman. Superman, Fiona. He played Superman, not Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Oh, did I say Spider-Man?

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah, you did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Oh, I got excited because I seen DeRock. Every time I say Darock, I can just Datoot Fairy.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

That's interesting because he has sized down. I don't know if you've seen The Rock recently.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

I just cannot get that picture out of my head.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Oh, I don't even know Rock are like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Dwayne DeRock Johnson. It was his best role.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

He'd be listening to this. Well, you won't appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

I just thought it was hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

He's sized down, Fiona. I don't know if you've seen him recently.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

No, I haven't.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

His latest film, he plays Mark Hunt, a former UFC fighter. Big bloke. The rock's, yeah, huge, you know. But now he's sized down.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Why has he sized down? Too hard to make it.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Who knows? So yes, the rock has sized down. He's lost a good 60-ish pounds.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Why would you agree to size down when it's so hard to stay in that size?

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Well the weird thing is people are saying that he's sized down because of the film he's been in. Well, he was huge in that film. Mark Hunt was massive, and The Rock is massive in the film. He's humongous. He's he's if anything, he might be a little bit bigger. So maybe it's because he's now what 53? So it's enough. It's enough rock. That's enough. Of course, the rock isn't it? Pleads natural. He's got ridiculous genetics. He's got obscene genetics. Obscene genetics. So he's a big bloke anyway. Regardless. But of course he's Yeah, he's he's juiced to the gills. Of course he is. Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Juice to the gills. So you guys are juiced to the gills and a two fairy.

Bubble Gut, Keto Trends, And Diet Lore

SPEAKER_02 30:13

No, that's what I said. I think the two fairy is a bit smaller, isn't he? He went for a period of time where he he was smaller, he downsized to try and fit in and get different roles. Oh and then he got bigger again. He was like, no, I'm gonna be an action star. Oh okay, fine. I don't know, I don't know, Fiona. I don't think he's confirmed it either way, but he's he's lost a good amount of weight. So you assume he he might say it's for a role, but it'd be interesting to see if he puts on the weight again. Because as I've said, he's he's now in his fifties, and it's just not realistic to keep juicing to that degree. Or just to be that big.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Oh, never mind. I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Anyhow, modern body standards, they're achieved through unsustainable methods, dehydration, diuretics, crash diets, carb manipulation.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Yes, these people, most of these people, so Jackman four in the latest in the latest four, he just looks phenomenal physique, but he just looks ridiculous. I think the earlier fours, you'd say, okay, yeah, that's that's achievable. Good genetics.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Because it's never good enough, though, that's the thing. So they always have to get better and better and better. They can't just stay they just have to keep pushing themselves until they'll start looking grotesque.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Well, yeah. I wouldn't say does four look grotesque. I don't think it looks grotesque, but no, not at all. The latest four, I haven't watched it, but judging by the trailer, it's it's obscene. So whether whether about the fact if he's on gear or not.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Gear now.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Juice, whatever. Forget about the fact if he's juicy or not, whatever. Chris Emsworth. But the point is of these of Hugh Jackman and Four and The Rock and a lot of these stars, their physique that they they display on screen is so short, it's so fleeting.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Like it's literally two hours. It's achievable. Some of it's achievable naturally. But even the fact that, say Hugh Jackman, say he's natural. The physique he shows on screen is is a day. He's not walking around like that for weeks at a time.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

I don't understand how not.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Is it because he's injecting a like you've just no, no, you you've read it out.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Oh right. Dehydration directory.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Crash diets, fine, carb manipulation.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Fine.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

All these things are are short term.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Yeah. Well Dave can't hold his looks all year round. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Yes. So some of these things that we'll get to, if we ever get to it, you might utilise some of these things during, say, peak week for bodybuilders when they get ready to step on stage. So that's a week. Max. To finish off the final touches.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

So Zach Z Zach oh, what's his name? I can never say it. Ephron? Zach Efron, Baywatch, openly admitted his diuretic fuel physique left him depressed and unhealthy.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Yes, I imagine it did, yeah. He looked good though. Yeah. Yeah, he looked pretty good, yeah. Yeah, the rock, he looked pretty big in Baywatch. I never watched Baywatch. Looked terrible.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

I remember I've seen Brownie was terrible. I remember seeing a couple of them.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

We're talking about the film, Fiona Baywatch. Not not the Hasselwolf, not the original.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Oh right, I'm thinking of Hassleworth.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

The original was back in the 80s and 90s. Yeah, we're talking about the film. Oh, yeah. I don't think Zach and Fraun and The Rock were in the off one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Oh yeah, I've seen that. I've seen that. Oh, it does look good in that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Oh right, okay. I've definitely seen that.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Any good? No.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

No, it looked terrible, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Um counterculture dad bobs. Dad bods? Counterculture dad bods. Briefly seen as more relatable. We've got Chris Pratt. DiCaprio Seth Rogan. A cultural swing against a superhuman idea. No. A cultural swing against a super a c tough watching it.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

It's tough watching it. It really is. I feel sorry for you. Jesus. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

A cultural swing against superhuman ideal. But still tried to appearance.

Modern Standards And Hollywood Bodies

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Still tied to appearance, yeah. That's it. Anyway, dad bods, yeah, whatever. It's I think that was just in there because I don't know. It shifts, doesn't it? People like dad bods. Yeah, champion championing in people like people like dad bods. Dad bods are hot. And then they don't like dad bods. Or there's videos online. Yes, yeah, of course, yeah. But there's videos online of. But there's videos online of women saying that. Chris Bumstead. He's uh he's a very famous bodybuilder. Big blow. He competes with the uh the men's physique. So he's not he's not against the big big boys.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

So what is women?

SPEAKER_02 35:24

But there's a video there's a video, there's a video online of someone seeing his physique, a woman saying, Oh, yeah, dad bot.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Well and what exactly did this woman look like herself?

SPEAKER_02 35:37

This was when he was off season, I'm assuming. So he's not chiseled to the bone, just big blow.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

I'd have no idea who this guy is. I'm just trying to picture it.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Oh, big blow. Yeah, oh very attractive, yeah. Yeah, he's he's the man when it comes to he's not na I keep I keep wanting to say natural physique. He's not he's not natural, he's far from bloody natural. Yeah, but he doesn't look men's physique. So classic physique. I think he I think he competes in the classic physique competition. So not not the Olympia, not the mass monsters. This other one. So they're still juiced to the gills, but they're not. I'm sure he doesn't care.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Oh okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

But the point is, this is just this is just one video. I'm sure there's others. But the whole the whole shifting thing about dad bots. Oh, they're hot, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love a dad bot. Fine, okay. Oh, six packs, they're gross. But then people seeing Bumstead and saying, Oh yeah, a bit of a dad bot that.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Well, people are just critical, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02 36:32

God, really.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

So fake nattes and famous frauds.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

We like the liver king. Liver king claimed his luck came from an ancestral diet of raw liver.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Ancestral, yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Later exposed for a 10k per month steroid stack. He's so naughty. Michael Hearn, decades of massive size while claiming natural, a long-running industry joke.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Yes, Michael Hearn is in magazine Dream. Yes, he is. He's the bodybuilder. The liver king, yes, the the ball testicles.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Oh, right, yes. Now I'm with you.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Yeah, it's it's rough. We haven't watched that documentary yet about the liver king. No, but it's it's it is really depressing. Yes, it came out that he was lying and he was on steroids, which is like of course he was though. Yeah. Yeah, phenomenal physique.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

Looks good. Well, no, I know he looks terrible actually, he looks really unhealthy, but But why would he lie?

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Well, to make money, obviously. But he really went in for it, he really lied.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Well, yeah. I'm not I'm not sure if he's had a bit of a mental breakdown. There was a there was a thing recently where he was he flew out to Austin to confront Joe Rogan. Yeah, the big podcaster, yeah. For a fight. It's like, my god.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Well we might try for an RDAR step if we're not careful. Who'd win? You or him? Well, he's a big bloke, so he'd he'd he'd he'd yeah, he'd get you.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Joe Rogan on the other hand, he's uh a martial arts expert. He's a black belt in all sorts of stuff. So I think Joe Rogan would have probably been okay. But yeah, I I watched a video recently of him just sitting there with his raw milk eating ball testicles or eating some form of testicle. It's like this is this is actually really really depressing.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Anyhow, moving on.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Yeah, sitting there eating raw testicles. That's disgusting. That's beastly. Should have watched the documentary, it'd be interested to see because some of those documentaries you think I'm Why is he eating that?

SPEAKER_01 38:37

To get testosterone.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Ancestral life.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

That's disgusting.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

We'll come back and watch the documentary because sometimes it humanises these people, doesn't it? But what I've heard is that he doesn't. If you if you think Liver King's a douche, it's like, oh yeah, no. He's a douche. But this confirms that the guy is a douche. Unstable.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Oh unhinged.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

Yeah. Making his kids do the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Oh, I don't want to get into it.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Making his kids sit down at breakfast eating ball testicles. Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Where does Orchandis bullshit?

SPEAKER_02 39:10

You know, Brian, by all means, if you want to live this life, you go for it, but leave the kids over. Maybe your kids just want some frosties. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Give the kid a cocoa pop.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

You know, I'm not here judging people's breakfast choices, but ball testicles and raw milk.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

So moving on to male body dysmenders.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

Oh, sorry, Michael Hearn. Very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Oh, sorry, sorry, Ben. I told you.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Yeah, we need to need to.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Yeah, we do need to.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

Well, it's it's hard because it's interesting. We talk about certain things. I'm like, yeah, let's get into it. And I'm like, oh, hang on a minute. No, we're already 45 minutes in. M and you, I've got to go and revise.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Right, go on, Michael Hearn.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Nothing else to say. Oh, okay. It says it, yes. What's the bloody point? It's a long industry joke that he he claims natural.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Well, he's not.

Fake Natties, Liver King, And Hype

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Highly unlikely. But then you go back and see him when he was 13, 14. Just absurd. 220 pounds. Ripped. So once again, obscene genetics. Not just the 1%, the 0 0 1.1%. Obscene. So the genetics are there. The work ethics there. Everyone who talks about Micah Hearn, it's like, oh yeah, okay, he's probably on something. But they will then say, oh well, he's I've never seen anyone as regimented as him on his diet. He's a freak. It's just at this point, especially, he's now in his mid-50s. But it's but it is a running joke. I don't think people get too angry about it. But then I don't know at the same time what you should do because anyone who lies about taking steroids, it's rough. But yeah, why do people they sell supplements, they sell their training program while claiming natural? It's like you know, come on.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Surely these people could be sued for false advertisement though. Because it is falsely advertising.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

Well, I mean it's all in the it's all in the TLCs and the TLCs, terms and conditions, it's all in the TNCs and disclaimers and all the rest of it. But yes, I'm sure Michael Hearn was natural for a good good while. A lot of these people that have got these ridiculous physiques and these genetics they were natural for for a sustained period of time. It just depends when they went from being natural to not natural.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Hmm. Well, it's pushing themselves again, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Ronnie Coleman, he was. Oh what, sorry? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

My tunnel's gone off my watch.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Oh right. Oh my god. Ronnie Coleman. Up until his late 20s, I think. There's there's pictures of him doing competitions. Obscene. Many people claim that he's still natural. Obscene. Obscene genetics. Huge.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

So Michael Hearn queried.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Moving on.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Mid fifties now, Fierino. He's he's probably taken something.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Male body dysmorphia or bigorexia. The forever small syndrome. No matter how big, men feel undersized. Obsession with every flaw in the mirror never satisfied. Egocytonic behaviors. The obsession is disguised as discipline. Refuse and social events if macros cannot be controlled. Anxiety if a meal is missed or tracking isn't perfect. Training multiple times per day, skipping recovery. The reward paradox. In bodybuilding, obsessive dieting, compulsive training, and heavy drug use are rewarded with trophies. In any other context, the same behaviours will be dis will be diagnosed as eating disorders or OCD. The better that you look, the worse your health is.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Oh right. Well should we should we touch upon that? It's a shame because annoyingly The thing is, don't panic, Fiona. Stop panicking. I'm not. When when MNU's finished, when I finish the website, when I've got all this stress out of my life, this will be fun again.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Because my my mindset with these, because of limited time, is that it's trying to get everything in. It's almost like it's a one and done. We're gonna be doing this until we die.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

No.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

So we've got another, you know, maybe if we're lucky, you know, 30, 40 years of doing this.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

You've got about half an hour before my battery goes down.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

I've doing this every week. Oh my problem is every time we do these episodes, they're rushed. And in my mind, it's oh well, one time. We've only got one shot of this, talking about this specific subject. No.

unknown 43:50

No.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Well, yes, now we do, yes. Currently. But in the future, no. Okay, well, we're feared, then so male body dysmorphia. Just just a really interesting subject. But it's just it's just touched upon and it's frustrating because I like that I like that word.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

The obsession or that sentence, the obsession is disguised as discipline. I really like that. That's quite powerful.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Well, the the whole the better you look, the worse your health is.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

So the leaner someone is, oh my god, look at that. Oh, we've talked about that, we've talked about this before.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Yeah, but yeah, again, it's it's you were saying about when you when you had a six-pack, when you were really chiseled and whatnot, you're completely miserable as well. So it's not just about your health, it's about your mental health as well, isn't it? The mental side, the refusing social events, so it's obviously you're isolating yourself as well. Not a bad thing. Depression, anxiety, as you mentioned. It's there's a lot, there's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Yes, there is.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

So it's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

I think it takes a certain I don't know what the word is. No.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Hmm. It I it it can have a massive impact on everyone's life. Yeah, on your family's life. Yes. If you're if you get on edge about going to social events or doing anything.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Oh, you used to drive my knotting when you were shredding.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

I used to have shredding.

Bigorexia And The Discipline Illusion

SPEAKER_01 45:13

You had I had to measure everything out and even dinner and stuff, it was a pain in the back side. Now I just whack anything in. It's great. Love a butter, doesn't even know about it.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Right, well, that's it. That's it, Fiona. This episode has inspired me to step on stage. I'm gonna get back into bodybuilding. I'm gonna do it. I was every into it, but I'm gonna get into it.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Oh, I've lost my patience.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

I'm gonna start injecting. And I need you for that, Fiona.

unknown 45:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

So you have to start shaving my butthole. You have to start injecting me in the bum. All this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

What's a PED? Sorry, did you not?

SPEAKER_02 45:46

Sorry. I'm saying. You're not doing anything with your buttons. At the age of 29, I'm getting I'm pushing it. 29. I'm pushing it a bit. So I need to. This is it. M and you. After we've done the exams, pass with flying colours, everything else. This is it.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Well, I'm sure M and you will sponsor it. Let's do a thing.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Let's commit to it right now on camera. M and you will sponsor it. Do well, maybe, yeah. Let's do a bodybuilding show.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Me and you. Is that a thing?

SPEAKER_02 46:08

I've never seen that. Yeah, I've never seen that. Uh husband and wife doing a bodybuilding show together. Husband and wife. I'm sure they do. I'm sure it's a thing, but.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

I'm not doing that with you.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

I don't have any discipline.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

The next 12 months, 2026. Let's get on the gear. Let's do a bodybuilding show.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Okay, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

Tan up. We can trim each other's butthole, hair. That's what you need to do for you owner. No hair on the body.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

I'll send you down for a wax.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

Yes, that's fine. Let's commit to it.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

Let's see how big we can get. Let's see how chiseled we can get.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Right. Mainstream spillover. What is a PED?

SPEAKER_02 46:44

A performing enhancing drug.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Pets often niche. Now used by everyday Jim Gores chasing influencer physiques. Steroid and swarms.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

SARMs.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

SARMS. Used to used in growing among recreational lifters.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

I wouldn't worry too much about this.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

What about your your experience in uh where are we? Indonesia with them all just injecting themselves.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's you know, that is a good point. We won't get into that now, but the point of that is a lot of people are now glorifying PEDs, drugs. So you've gone from people being really secretary about it, oh no my god, I'm not, I'm not on drugs, to now people glorifying, oh hi guys, yeah, this is my this is my snack, this is what I'm using. But a lot of these people are like 18. Oh Jesus Christ. Well, they've got a long way to go. Give yourself give yourself 10 years, at least. But then that's train for 10 years before you start getting on PEDs.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

But that's the thing. So at 18, they're using these PES or whatever the heck they're called. What are they going to then what are they going to resort to in 10 years' time? That's that's that that's my argument because it's never going to be enough. But surely they'll have to start utilising them more and more and more to the point where you're in liver failure or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Well, a lot of bodybuilders, unfortunately, are are dying, yes. Yes. The last ten years there's been a lot of bodybuilders who have passed away.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

But there must have been.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

I'm sure that's and I'm sure that these drugs played a part.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Well, yeah, your man. He had liver problems, didn't he?

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Who's your man?

SPEAKER_01 48:17

In magazine Dreams. He was in liver failure. He had six sod over his liver.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Rich piano, rich piano, rich piano, big bloke. I'm sure you'd have seen him as well. Tattoos. Yes. Yeah, big guy. Yeah, he was lots of lots of drugs. He he passed away a few years ago, but Jesus Christ. He was getting older as well. He was I think in his mid mid to late 40s.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

That's not old though.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

No, I know, but for a bodybuilder to be pumping that for a bodybuilder to be pumping that, it's just it's a risk, isn't it? To be that big as well, the older you get.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

So cultural influence. Heroes like Luke Skywalker in 1977 look slim and boyish. Modern equivalents are Marvel DC, who are much bigger, more muscular. Action figures have grown more muscular decade by decade. G.I. Joe, Batman, even children's dolls. Yes, children's dolls have gotten very beefy looking. Kids grow up with extremes as normal, feeling uh feeding feelings of inadequacy. Inadequacy. It's true though.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

How was that? How was that section? Again, it's annoying because it's it's a good section. You could do a whole episode on that section.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

I agree with it. It's it's like all dolls, for example. But now they're bringing out all of these different various shapes and sizes dolls, but a lot of the dolls are now action figure dolls.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Yeah, they're twice the size.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Do you remember Ken? I don't know if you had Barbie dolls when you were younger.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

No, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

But I had the Ken Barbie doll.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Is he a beefcake now?

SPEAKER_01 49:50

He's a beefcake now. Right, yeah. Yeah, he was quite slim.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Previously. I'm surprised it didn't like. Do you know in the Barbie remake film? I'm surprised it didn't get somebody who was like fucking who was very, very big. I'm surprised it didn't get somebody who was big.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

I think Goslin was in good nick.

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Oh, I'm not saying he wasn't, but I'm not surprised it didn't get somebody who was like a bodybuilder. Like something.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Oh yeah, but Ken's not that low, is he? We're good to go, are we? We're good to go. Yes, we will touch upon the the whole male body dysmorphia stuff. More. More in the eating disorder episode. Or just in general, like I said, there'll be so much more time to have fun to do these episodes every day.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

So common pets in bodybuilding.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Performing harsh and drugs. Finishing off on this.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

You say the words and I'll say what they are.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

Just say trend.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Tren.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Extreme size and strength, but comes with aggression, sweats, poor sleep, and mental health issues. Why the heck would you be taking that?

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Aggression. Big muscles.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Yeah, but Jesus, you're sweating them out. You can't poor sleep.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Broid rage is a whole different episode entirely. Well, not really an episode, but Clen. Clembuterol.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

A stimulant fat burner, dangerous for the heart. Popular jury and cutting phases. Again, why would you take it? It's dangerous for your heart.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

It keeps your body up.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Yeah. Insulin allows bodybuilders to force carbs into muscles.

SPEAKER_03 51:16

This is not.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Making it possible to eat thousands of calories more. Dangerous if mistimed. Hyperglycemia can be facial.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

That's bonkers, though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 51:26

Did I ever tell you about the time where I had a hypoglycemic episode? It was horrible.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Okay, not for this episode, I don't think. Not for this episode, but that's nuts. Absolutely nuts. All the PEDs is bonkers, but injecting insulin. Jesus. Jesus. If of course you haven't got diabetes. Bonkers.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

So steroids in general people are nuts. Steroids in general intensify male traits, aggression, vascularity, acne, hair loss. They enhance what men already have muscle, leanness, and strength, but they carry long-term risks for cardiovascular, liver, and endocrine health.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Just a snapshot of some of the drugs. I'm not an expert in this, so there's lots. Well, I don't think there's lots more drugs. I think most bodybuilders are on similar amounts of drugs or similar drugs. They just maybe are on different amounts.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Just insane.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

Anything to say about that, Fiona? The whole insulin thing, that that that really got me, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

I think it's more the aggression that gets me, actually. And poor sleep and mental health issues.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

It's a side effect, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

But it's saying mental health issues, aggression, sweats, poor sleep, and then you've got dangerous of the heart, and then you've got hypoglycemia on top of that.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

It's just Well, that's for injecting insulin.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. But it's just why would you risk those? I suppose I don't get it. I don't get it.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

We'll get into the film review, but it depends, isn't it? As well, it depends how far you get. If you're just an amateur bodybuilder and you're doing a lot of this, you're doing all of this.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

But in today's how much can you justify? In today's modern society, for young people going into this type of industry, they're just gonna go straight onto the steroids, aren't they? They're not gonna try to maximize what their body naturally is, they're not gonna try and do it naturally.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

That's a good point, Fiona, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

They're going to just because of the social norms and everything, this this is now normalised, these bodies are now normalized, and these risks are there, but nobody says anything about them, about the risk.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

No, I think they do, they just don't care.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Yeah, but kids, kids going into it these days, they're they're as I keep saying, it's just never going to be enough. Because they're never going to train, well, obviously they're gonna train, but they're never gonna allow their body to get to the natural point, they're going to go straight in for steroids.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

There's no time. If I'd have got into this at 18, oh yeah, 100%, that they'd have been going straight in. Definitely. If you start taking this seriously, bodybuilding, and you believe that you're the next big thing, and you believe you can be pro and and you just love it, you fall in love with the sport, and you can start going to gyms with bodybuilders, and they're like, Yeah, you look good, yeah. Shoulders nice, yeah, chest, yeah, it needs work, but yeah, you know, what are you wearing? Like, you know, 170. Gotta push those numbers up a little bit. Yeah, so let me get you in touch with someone and uh we'll get cracking, shall we? Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. You can't go to these competitions unless you go to competitions that are drug tested. There's no point turning up to these competitions that aren't drug tested, and you're not on drugs. Complete waste of time. You could have the best genetics in the world. You could be, again, 0.00, you could be Michael Hearn. You might get away with it initially if you've got unbelievable genetics and you just look great. But if you want to take it seriously, you need to get on the gear. Because everyone else is on the gear.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

That's my point, exactly. A young kid coming, not a young kid, but a young person who's starting out, everybody's already on it, so they're just gonna go on it. So they could have an amazing natural physique, but they'll never be able to experience that because they're gonna go straight into is it even called pharmac pharmaceutical measures? It's not the gear, they're gonna go straight to the gear. Well, more about everybody else's, and it's easily accessible as well.

Culture Shift: Toys, Media, Expectations

SPEAKER_02 55:34

More about the bigorexia and the male body dysmorphia, which we'll get into at a later time. But yeah, I believe some of the stuff that I did, some of the stuff that I read was more and more people are getting into drugs. Just the average person, the average office worker, who sort of takes it, doesn't take it that seriously, might not even get on stage, doesn't have that much interest in becoming a bodybuilder as such, but they're just doing what everybody else is doing. Likes the idea of having big muscles, having a six pack. You just hope that a lot of these bodybuilders, if they're around people that are juiced to the girls and are doing competitions, you just hope that a lot of these wannabe bodybuilders are around people that are promoting getting your bloods done, having all your regular health checkups. All this might seem absurd and all these drugs, but all these bodybuilders, especially as you get higher and higher, will be having their health markers checked all the time.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

But what if something comes up? An abnormality. Well, what are they gonna do about it?

SPEAKER_02 56:44

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

Absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

Some might call it a day, others might go, okay, well, what can I do? What are the options? Can I still blast this drug but just less of it? Oh yeah, maybe. Can I take something else? So you hope at the very least, even the people that are just that just bodybuild over the weekend, who might be thinking about taking drugs.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

Don't.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

Ideally don't, yeah, but you hope they're around people that are, yeah, if you want to take this, fine, it's it's your own body, it's your own decision. But make sure you're getting your blood stun. Make sure you're getting all this stuff in place. Make sure all this is in place. It might seem like all these bodybuilders, all they do is just inject stuff and train and all the rest of it, but they've got all this other stuff in place as well.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

So we're coming towards the end now, but we're gonna focus on the women's side of things at another episode, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 57:37

Female bodybuilding, yes. That was very male heavy, wasn't it, Fiona? Very male heavy, but we are running out of time. Yes, running out of time and energy, you know. I've got a revision. So and we haven't even talked about the lecture.

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

The actual lecture notes. That's just that's just musings.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

Got excited, didn't we?

SPEAKER_02 57:51

That's just musings about bodybuilding in general.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

Yes, so we'll come back and we'll we're not missing out the ladies. No, we're not we will come back to you. Very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

Very interesting. But uh, yes, that was that was a lot.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

So this is natural.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

So there's a table here with this is based around men. This is realistic muscle gain per year for a natural, for a natty. A natty didn't mention the fake natty. We did, did we? Fake natty. Did we say fake natty?

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

So natural natty and then fake natty, people like Mike O'Hearn, potentially.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Yes, that's what we said. We talked about the liver king, fake nattis, and famous frauds liver king and mic ohnate.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

Yes, fake nattties, yes, that's that's the term. Yeah, we did. People who say, Oh, I'm natural, fake natty.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Okay. So in year one, the realistic muscle gain per year is between 10 to 25 pounds, which is 4.5 to 11 kg.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

Newbie gains. That's that's a good amount, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 58:46

That is a good amount. 11 kg. That's a lot. That's a lot. Jeez. But we do start to decrease. Year two, five to ten pounds, two to four point five kg. Year three, two point five to seven point five pounds, which is one kg to three point five kg, and so on. So the total muscle gain in a lifetime would be 13.5 to 25 kg of muscle mass.

SPEAKER_02 59:13

Of muscle gain, should I say 13.5 to 23 kg?

SPEAKER_01 59:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

Over a lifetime, which is your total.

SPEAKER_02 59:22

20 to 50 pounds.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Yep. It's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Right. Yeah, it's not bad, is it?

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Yeah, but you achieve most of that in your first year.

SPEAKER_02 59:31

Unfortunately, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a bit of a slog. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Because when you get to year four, year four, year five, it decreases dramatically, doesn't it? It's one to five pounds. Yeah. A half a pound to a pound.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

So I feel like hopefully I've got I've got one more bulk in me. Because I don't think I've I don't think I've I don't think I've got anywhere near my genetic ceiling. So even though I've been now training for several years, I just don't I've never given it I've never gone all in. Not Not on the bulking side. On the on the getting lean six back, yeah, to a degree. I hope there's yeah, I hope there's some scope for a a bit of extra muscle. Probably not though.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

No. You're old now, hun.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

No, come on, there is. Because I there is probably I pretty much became detrained when we went travelling.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Well you're still training every morning.

Natural Limits And Realistic Gains

SPEAKER_02 1:00:27

Yeah, but not no, I wasn't there, was I? Terrible. It was there were the f some of the food was okay, but in terms of the training and being consistent with it, oh no, awful.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

No, you couldn't really be dull every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

So yeah. And really, since I come back, it's been okay, but with the business, pushable health, M and U, it's I've never been able to go all in. It's just like, oh, I was just getting it done.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

That's just life doll, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

So yet again, 2026, Fiona is the year see you on stage. Drugs, bodybuilding, food, rock and roll, baby. This is it. One last go.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

What's the word? Uh I don't know what the word is.