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Roots to Health with Dr. Craig Keever
Welcome to Roots to Health—where we dig deep into the foundation of lifelong wellness! Hosted by Dr. Craig Keever, Northwest Arkansas’ first and only plant-based pediatrician, this podcast unearths the power of nutrition, lifestyle, and holistic health to help kids, families, and adults thrive.
What can you expect?
Dr. Keever breaks down the science of nutrition and disease prevention in a way that’s simple, practical, and life-changing. From raising healthy kids to optimizing adult wellness, each episode delivers key insights that challenge conventional wisdom and empower you to take control of your health.
Whether he’s debunking nutrition myths, explaining how food shapes long-term well-being, or sharing actionable tips for disease prevention, Roots to Health is your go-to guide for vibrant living—one bite, one step, and one conversation at a time.
Get ready to rethink everything you thought you knew about health—and discover just how powerful roots can be!
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Roots to Health with Dr. Craig Keever
Rooted in Science: The Truth About Plant-Based Nutrition for Children
Dr. Craig Keever and his wife Amy tackle the questions that keep plant-based parents up at night: "Is my child getting enough protein? What about iron? Is soy safe?" Drawing from his pediatric practice and their personal journey, they provide science-backed answers to the most common nutrition concerns.
The protein myth gets thoroughly debunked right out of the gate. While hospital wards remain empty of protein deficiency cases, they're filled with patients suffering from diseases linked to fiber deficiency – something 96% of Americans don't get enough of. The Keever’s offer practical food suggestions like lentils, beans, tofu, and quinoa that provide abundant protein while delivering the fiber conventional diets lack.
For parents concerned about iron, B12, calcium, and healthy fats, the episode breaks down exactly which plant foods provide these nutrients and how to optimize absorption. The discussion on brain development is particularly valuable, explaining how myelin formation requires healthy fats that can easily be obtained from avocados, nut butters, and ground flaxseed.
Beyond nutrition, Craig and Amy address the social aspects of raising plant-based children. They offer thoughtful perspectives on handling criticism from family members, navigating birthday parties, and deciding how strict to be when children are exposed to non-vegan foods outside the home. Their balanced approach acknowledges both the health science and the emotional realities of parenting in a meat-centric culture.
Whether you're already raising vegan children or just considering more plant-based options for your family, this episode provides the confidence and practical knowledge to make informed choices. Check the show notes for recommended resources including Plant-Based Juniors, Plantiful Kiki's cookbooks, and helpful apps for tracking nutrition.
Have questions about raising plant-based kids? Leave them in the comments, and Dr. Keever will personally respond with evidence-based answers to support your family's journey.
Plant Based Juniors Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/plantbasedjuniors?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Plantiful Kiki's Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/plantifulkiki?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Cronometer- https://cronometer.com/
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The information provided in this video is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have seen or heard in this video. Dr. Craig Keever is a licensed pediatrician, but the content shared here is general in nature and may not be applicable to your individual health needs.
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Well, all right then. Greetings and salutations. Here we are at another episode of Roots to Health. I'm Dr Craig Kiever, alongside my lovely wife Amy, who is my personal vegan chef and been my partner through this whole journey. If you've watched any of our podcasts before, you know this. So today we thought we would spend some time tackling questions. The topic is questions that vegan moms have about raising their children vegan.
Speaker 2:And maybe if you're not, how do we do this? How do we begin this journey?
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah, so it all kind of fits together and and uh, so we'll just uh, I, I came up with a list of questions and we'll just kind of start hammering down those, uh, one at a time, and some of them do a lot of overlapping, so we may kind of end up repeating ourselves a little bit in some areas. But, um, we'll start with question number one, which is one of my favorite questions.
Speaker 2:What is that going to be? I am so just going to be in shock of what this question is.
Speaker 1:So one of the most common questions is how can I get, or make sure my child is getting, enough protein? It always cracks me up because, as you've heard me, as you've heard me say, how are we getting enough fiber?
Speaker 1:right, exactly so, and and that's exactly where I was going with this, it's, you know, um, the, the, as we've talked about in previous podcasts. You know, the, the, the most famous question of any non-vegan person. Uh has uh, speaking for the first time with a person that is plant based, the first thing that comes out with everybody's mind is where do you get your protein? So we'll address that with kids. It's actually really not a problem.
Speaker 2:As they're eating their Twinkies.
Speaker 1:As they're eating their Twinkies. And yeah, to that end, yes. My retort question then, after I answer the question of where do you get your protein, is where do you get your fiber? I took your line away, that's right. No, you didn't take it away at all. So yeah, and so where do we get our protein? For kids and you know, it's really the same for any plant-based person Primary sources are our favorites. I should say Lentils, beans, tofu, quinoa, edamame and nuts are kind of a short list of most of our favorites.
Speaker 2:And, as a side note, every fruit and vegetable has protein in it.
Speaker 1:That's correct. You may or may not have seen. There's a poster that I think is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, that pictures broccoli next to steak and it talks about how much protein is in broccoli versus steak. And the reason I say that's kind of tongue in cheek is, you know, in terms of bioavailability and reasonable amounts of food to eat and tummy space Space, yeah, obviously the steak is going to have a smaller amount of edible portions. To achieve a certain level of protein, you'd have to eat a whole lot of broccoli and it would be probably fairly uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Same thing, thankfully, with calorie density. You have to eat a whole lot of broccoli to gain those same calories which we like, that fact.
Speaker 1:Exactly, we, as adults that are interested in weight control, are really happy about that. Um, you know we're diverging a little bit from the protein question, but, but yes, um, uh, the calorie density issue is a is a big deal, and and we'll get to, I think, more of that in later questions here Um, but um, suffice it to say it's very easy in terms of, um, the things that are available for kids to get protein from. Now, as we'll probably also discuss at several points today, the question becomes how do you get that in my kid? Because kids are so programmed to gravitate towards the process garbage and actually I was reading something in the last couple of days. You know it makes good sense that our taste buds are kind of genetically geared towards especially in the younger years sweeter things, so it's no big surprise that kids want the sweeter things. Okay, so it's our job as parents, then, to provide the sweeter things that aren't full of processed and refined junk.
Speaker 2:Well, and I'll try to put some things in the show notes of some instagrams of some healthy vegan moms that are held. Their vegan babies eat this stuff up like crazy, and so they've. They've been raised on the good things, and so it's just a matter of getting them conditioned to the right sweet.
Speaker 1:Exactly yes, for sure, and you know I've had some parents ask me in my pediatric practice, you know, is it better that I start my kid on only vegetables because I don't want them to get hooked on sweets? And while I would say, on the one hand I don't have a truly well-researched scientific answer for that, and based on kind of what I'm learning and reading recently, I would offer that, you know, our taste buds at that age naturally gravitate towards the sweeter things, and so I don't think it's a big problem to allow the sweetness of fruits.
Speaker 2:I think our grandbabies are a perfect example. Bentley looks at grapes and blueberries like it's like he's like getting away with something because you know so they love fresh fruit.
Speaker 1:You bet yeah, and I think in fact offering the healthy sweeter things is probably a really good way to get them moving the right direction.
Speaker 2:Before we start attacking their taste buds with the processed garbage, the refined sugars and all the fats and oils and stuff that are the real problem for our diets. Yeah, and as adults, we know a lot of the reason why they're gravitating towards those things. Is they have that addictive attitude. Those things have things in them that want you to go back and crave them like cheese.
Speaker 1:Those, things have things in them that want you to go back and crave them like cheese, and I've been given to understand that, actually, in many of these processed food companies, there are full-on departments that are geared toward making their food more craveable, which is another word for addictive.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know so, and it's pretty scary what those actually are oh, yes, chemicals, all the chemicals, yes, Chemicals, all the chemicals, yes and right. So I think we beat the protein issue to death, although we may address it a little more later. We kind of have to, though, don't we? We have to Because it is the big deal.
Speaker 2:People are freaked out about it.
Speaker 1:Well, right, and I guess, to dovetail onto that, my favorite thing is related to the fiber, and I mentioned in a previous podcast.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite things was a Facebook meme that showed a picture of an empty hospital ward and it said this is a picture of all the patients that have been hospitalized due to protein deficiency in the US this year, and it's empty. Yes, you know. So we just don't have protein deficiency here in this country, provided we are looking at what's in our diet, right? Okay, in the plant-based world, really, a lot of people say you know, if you're eating enough calories, you're going to get enough protein, and if you're eating a variety, you're going to get all the types of amino acids in those proteins that you're going to need. All right, if you focus on just one thing as your primary source, you know, for instance, rice, although I don't know of anybody who would use rice as their primary source for protein, but maybe. But you know rice is short on a couple of the essential amino acids, and so you know it is important to kind of keep an eye on and monitor what's in your diet.
Speaker 2:You know, I can't recall this whole story, like I probably shouldn't bring this up because I can't recall all but Dr Golder was showing something where someone it was someone in her group saying that you know they were only doing's. The most important thing is is the nutrition really going, is it highly nutritious, to where you're actually taking it?
Speaker 1:Precisely. And then to finish, the thought of the empty hospital or related to protein deficiency. Then the next picture on this Facebook meme was a rather full intensive care unit. Yes, meme was a rather full, intensive care unit and the meme said something to the effect of this is a picture of patients who have diseases related to lack of fiber and it was a full, busy ICU. So there is a lot of ramification to not getting the proper fiber over, especially over the period of years that we're talking about in this country, because the minimum daily requirement for our bodies to function properly on fiber is 30 grams a day and the average American gets maybe between 10 and 15.
Speaker 2:They said like 96% of Americans don't get their proper fiber Correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's high, high, that's that's way worse than well, and that's protein deficiency that's exactly right and it speaks to why, um, the level of chronic disease is what it is in this country, when, when we understand that 70, 70 let me repeat that again percent of this whole country is considered overweight and 40 percent is considered obese, you know, we've gotten to the place in this country where and this is not about fat shaming at all, okay, this is about what the excess weight does to our overall health it really shows how that bmi number really is.
Speaker 2:Uh, it really is important. It means something yeah, that's right how your body's metabolism that's right, so and on that side note, I'd like to talk about doctor. I did not talk about it, but I wanted um for those of you listening. Yeah, for those of you listening, fiber fuel by dr will bulschewitz. Don't make me spell this. I think I've gotten to where I could smell um, it's on our, it's on craig's website, but that's a really great deep dive into fiber and the microbiome I highly recommend that's an excellent book.
Speaker 1:Um, so that, uh, kind of I don't know that there's a clear segue here. But, um, the next question I have on my list has to do every time I have a question that's related to well, what's my good source for this or that or the other thing? There's a whole lot of overlap, because this last time I said for protein, lentils, beans, tofu, edamame, nuts and quinoa, this one I'm going to say lentils, tofu, nuts, seeds and whole grains, yeah, not hard at all.
Speaker 1:That's right, not hard. Those are all good sources of iron. As with anything in any diet, it's good to kind of keep an eye on things periodically and understand really kind of where you're at on a nutritional basis. And to that end we've mentioned several times in previous podcasts that Amy and I like to use the app called chronometer or chronometer it depends on who you are and how you want to say that. That's a running joke between the two of us anyway.
Speaker 1:So you know, and iron deficiency is a relatively common thing in a lot of kids and at my office we always check hemoglobin, which is a measure of the protein that carries oxygen, and as a sign of anemia if your hemoglobin is low. We measure that at age one, at the one-year-old checkup and at the two-year-old checkup and it's, I would say, probably. I see about five to 10% of kids pretty significant that are at least on the very low end, significant, that are at least on the very low end, if not just a little bit below. It's a rare child that I see that's really significantly anemic. But for the ones that are mild to moderately, it kind of depends Sometimes. I'll just recommend hey, parent, why don't you go ahead and Google iron-containing foods and get as much of that in them as you can. And secondly, where was I?
Speaker 2:going with this.
Speaker 1:Oh, a multivitamin plus iron, and I think I've encountered almost everybody with just a very mild level of anemia will respond to that fairly well. Now, the other question on this section was related to absorption, and the really nice thing is, if you add a little vitamin C with your meal of iron-containing foods, that increases the iron absorption. So where do you get your vitamin C? Well, most people know citrus fruits is a great source, but other things work as well to include bell peppers and strawberries and broccoli, just to name a few.
Speaker 2:I mean for the most part. Don't you feel like the body can metabolize iron a lot better through a natural source versus having to do a supplement because it's very much so over?
Speaker 1:there very much so, and that's a very good point. The reason that I'm a little hesitant sometimes to actually prescribe a bottle of iron is that when you take it in small amounts, like is in food and whatnot very healthy way to get the proper amounts. When you take a bottle of liquid iron, if you get an overdose of that, that will damage your liver and it's significant.
Speaker 2:And so I would think it would be almost impossible to get too much in foods.
Speaker 1:I would agree. I would agree, so yeah, so I am cautious to prescribe iron drops when we're talking about we're giving this mostly to toddlers, and toddlers do what they do and they get into things. And if it's not very securely away and they get into a bottle of iron and drink it, that's going to be a problem.
Speaker 2:Well, and for adults it's even you can really go.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, yes, yeah, but usually adults aren't going to take a.
Speaker 2:No, but I mean, I've just heard and I don't know if this is right or not, but I've just heard that you really have to be pretty careful with iron supplements.
Speaker 1:Right, Right, the most common complication for for just a little bit of overtaking of iron. I hear a lot of folks concerned about constipation. I've not seen a lot of science that backs that up, but it is an anecdotal thing that many people complain of when they take iron supplements. And so to that end, the natural way to do this in foods, I will tell you, as we've historically tracked on chronometer, at the times that we have, I've had zero trouble getting more than enough iron right and for, you know, tofu sounds like I thought I was.
Speaker 2:you know, I thought I would never take in tofu, but really it just takes on the, the taste it really does. I've heard people say that, like you know, whatever we use the silken tofu for, it really does. I've heard people say that, like you know, whatever we use the silken tofu for creamy decadent chocolate desserts, we use the hard tofu for any kind of you know, just as you would any kind of meat.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and kind of our favorite thing right now, or I should say my favorite thing. Amy made up a nice tofu scramble and you know the spices we use in that and the flavors she uses in that and the texture of the tofu is very much like egg and you put what is it? Um, turmeric in there.
Speaker 2:It gives it the yellow color and it also gives him probably a variety of over 15 plants, because by the time I do the spices and all the things that are in it, you've got such a variety of that diversity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, very much All right. Moving on to the next very common question Do kids need B12? Well, yes, as human beings, we all need B12. So that can be a little bit of an issue, um, and in terms of a fully plant-based diet, more in any diet, in any diet, but more commonly in plant-based um. And so, yeah, I would go so far as to say everybody in this country would stand to do well on a b12 supplement I've shown really the vegans really are not that much I.
Speaker 2:I mean really, it's a bacteria. It's not really about Right.
Speaker 1:Bacteria is what makes the B12.
Speaker 2:So because we've become hyper-sterilized with our foods. Although there's a lot of junk in our foods, I've heard that everybody's kind of low in it. I mean, you really need a supplement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, and as an adult I can tell you my dose works very well. For me is 2000 micrograms once a week and I've toyed around with that at different levels and looked at different authors and that's what I've found I think is doing a very nice job for me. I don't have off the top of my head. I haven't memorized the child scale for B12 doses, but let me see Second plug.
Speaker 2:That's right. I love this book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a book called the Plant-Based Baby and Toddler from the creators of a website and a company called Plant Based Juniors, which is also on your website, if they need to look at it. There's a link to this on the plant-based resources of ozarkpediatricsorg. So this is an excellent book and there is a place in here where she gives a kind of a nice little chart for different ages.
Speaker 2:There's recipes, but it's very well done, where it shows how do you do your plate, like literally, like how can you? She makes it super, they make it super simple. They're a plant-based nutritionist, um, so yeah yeah, very, very well done um she actually was a co. She was who did the recipes for dr bulschewitz ohbook.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that. That's very cool yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, and I think one of Rip's as well, rip Esselstyn's.
Speaker 1:Very cool, all right. Question number four how can I ensure my child gets enough healthy fats for brain development? Very important, that's very important For kids. First of all, when we're talking about infants, breast milk has the perfect amount.
Speaker 2:People don't know that. I don't mean to direct you on that, but our breast milk is really the lowest level of fat of almost any other species. So to compare it with cow's milk really does kind of mess with our biology, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, having said that, you know what I talk to patients about in my office is you know? First of all, I always am very clear I'm nobody's food police, right. But because of my background, because of what's been successful for me not only in my personal life but in my research, I've come to realize that you, that you know dairy. I may have said it before our podcast, we're the only species on the face of the earth that uses the secretions of another animal. You put it that way, you know that's kind of kind of wicked sounding. So, having said that, the dairy industry has done a marvelous job of marketing their addictive substances. Because it is quite tasty, I mean, I do like a whole cow's milk Used to Me. I did, I did, I used to like whole cow's milk. Got to where the 2% was better. I never could quite wrap my brain around skim. Loved ice cream, loved cheeses, although maybe not quite as much as my wife.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was my addiction, Not anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but so the point is is that, yes, cow's milk is kind of addictive, or dairy products?
Speaker 2:It's made to make this 500 pound baby that's right.
Speaker 1:That's what I like to tell people is you know, I never personally had any major problems with cow's milk. Okay, lots of people have inflammatory, terrible allergies from the get-go. Yeah, lots of people have allergies, terrible inflammation, gi upset, intolerance to either cow's milk, protein or lactose. I never had any of that. But cow's milk is great for cows because, as Amy said, it makes little bitty cows great big cows. That's what it did for me.
Speaker 2:That's what else.
Speaker 1:And so, for a number of reasons, I've actually I hate to use the word anti-dairy, but I really don't recommend it. Further that to say is that certainly I don't think there's a direct one-to-one link that we've found scientifically yet, but there have been studies that are suggesting some form of a link to using dairy products, particularly as young children and the future development of diabetes, harder on the kidneys. It's harder on the kidneys, it's just all the way around. Now what do dairy products do for us? I mean, everybody knows it's theoretically a good source of calcium. Theoretically. There are better sources, we'll get to that later. It's actually not a good source of calcium, right, it's what is marketed as, that's right. Okay.
Speaker 1:It also has protein, as we've alluded to. I would say what the statistics I've read somewhere between 50% and 60% of people will have some form of reaction, whether it's a full-on allergic reaction or some kind of indigestion or whatever to cow's milk protein. So it may not be the best source of protein. And it also has a level of fat and and to which brings us back to the question of fats in in the um. You know, certainly the cow's milk formulas um have all those ingredients and certainly babies do well often, um, but in my office often they don't. And we've, and we've got a. You know that I've seen lots of kids, uh, with really significant eczema. Yeah, you take them off the dairy and it goes away, it's been amazing.
Speaker 2:Do you feel like inflammation is kind of that pre-marker to possibly autoimmune things starting to happen?
Speaker 1:Could be.
Speaker 2:I haven't seen any science to that directly, it seems like with what I've seen with people who have gone through MS and things. It's like they can track back that not necessarily to dairy, but that they can track back that it started with inflammation and then their you know, their cells just kind of broke down Right.
Speaker 1:So then, if it's not breast milk or cow's milk protein or formulas, then for infants and healthy fats, my go-to is the only formula that we have on the market that I'm aware of, at least for the most part in the US, is a soy-based formula. I don't have any brands that I particularly recommend, but it's the only plant-based formula that's widely used in the US, if I'm not mistaken. There are a couple of other unusual ones that I really don't know anything about. That some I've got a couple of patients that order from Europe.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, if there's any investors out there, I would love to see more work done and I wish we had the time to do it to see more formulas for the moms that need those, you know, soy-based formulas that were really, you know, chock full of that nutrition and not highly processed. Not that we're saying that there's a positive or negative one that we're, you know, reacting to, but there's a gap there that needs to be filled, you bet yeah well, and the other type of milk that is occasionally used.
Speaker 1:It's rare but I deal with it, probably two to five times a year Kids that had trouble with this formula and that formula or having whatever kind of problems, and the family decides to put them. On goat milk, I'm not, again, a big fan of goat milk. I know the first thing that it doesn't have is enough folic acid, which is a very important substance that our bodies need for brain development. But even in the goat milk fortified with folic acid, I'm not real familiar with the fat and protein content of that. So I don't really recommend that and would have to study that more before I would know exactly what to say about it. But by and large I would suspect that because it's an animal-based product, it's probably not going to fit real well with what I'm understanding the science of nutrition to be. It's bait for another thing, right. So next age group is the toddler age group, and this is also a very important age group to have the proper amount of of healthy fat, just um and uh.
Speaker 2:So do you feel like moms are doing both baby lead weaning in there? I mean, like I'm? It's been so long but I hear my daughter, you know, or her talking about how she's doing the. Is it called baby it'saning? It's called baby lead weaning. They go into this with plant-based juniors where they kind of say, if you're going this route or this route, they kind of you know, baby food yeah, I've got a few that are trying the baby lead weaning thing.
Speaker 1:But in terms of what to switch to now, first of all, I would say one of the things I've learned in the last few years is strictly breastfed babies. I used to think before my plant-based days that you know, if you get breast milk for about six months, that's probably all the real medical benefit that's going to get for you, and I'm not sure where I ever heard that. So, and you know, it may have been a mentor in residency, but it may have been just some number that I grabbed out of the air. I don't. I truly don't remember, which is sad to say, because I really strive to practice evidence-based medicine, but with this age group being a really important timeframe to have enough fat, particularly for the nervous system, because, especially between age one and two, particularly for the nervous system, because, especially between age one and two, the nerves and brain are myelinating and myelin is a substance that wraps our nerves kind of like an insulator, and it's really important that we have the proper myelin, and myelin is basically a fat product, and so it's really important to have the right amounts and so, um.
Speaker 1:So, having said that, um, you know what I learned about? I'm kind of all over the place today Um, what I learned about breastfeeding. Yeah, what I learned about breastfeeding was that in most countries that support breastfeeding, um, it's, uh, supported through the age of two. It's fabulous, it is, and I was really unaware of that. I had kind of assumed, you know, most parents, most mothers that are really into breastfeeding, go to age one and then that's totally fine.
Speaker 2:You know, again, I'm nobody's food police and a lot of times, you know, like we've seen with our grandbabies, they'll wean themselves sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah absolutely yeah. And so and I, and again, this is there's nothing saying that I would recommend six months versus 12 months versus two years or whatever, because that decision is a very personal decision to be made within the culture of the home.
Speaker 2:But breastfeeding through the age of two would give all the proper fats, as if you know somehow what that child needs at that stage of life and that fat content adjusts.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it's crazy. And not only that, but then between the ages of one and two, we start taking some solids. And to that end, what sources do we have? Avocado is a very good one. It gets a lot of avocado. Yeah, Nut butters. I don't think I would go with the nuts per se because of the choking hazard, but nut butters, flaxseed and I would say ground flax seed is is the best. Um and hummus. Hummus is.
Speaker 2:Is hemp seed something that you would say sprinkled on anything as far as Um?
Speaker 1:possibly I'd have to look into that more. I don't. I haven't heard of a lot of folks using hemp seed with their toddlers, but um, so that's that age group and flaxseed if you're needing that extra boost.
Speaker 2:It really doesn't have a taste, I mean. So it's super easy to mix in anything that it's super easy yeah, and let's see, I made it.
Speaker 1:Oh, um, yeah, the the hummus that I mentioned is best, uh, used with tahini for Tom. That's a good fat, that's a really good fat. It's from sesame seeds, so that's where the fat comes in hummus, and that's why, for me personally, we don't add tahini to our hummus, because we want the lower fat variety so I can control my diabetes. All right, and again, I would highly um the use of an app if you're concerned about am I getting enough?
Speaker 1:yes you know, this was one of the light bulb moments for us when we were early in our journey and first started using chronometer. On the other end of the spectrum, we were shocked to learn, um really, how much fat we were getting in our diet.
Speaker 2:And you can even use. They have a QR, they have a barcode where, if you had food that's even packaged, you can scan that barcode and it usually almost has it in there, to where it'll just instantly fill it in for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's a really nice app.
Speaker 2:We do our regular recipes in there too. We kind of need to go back to things and kind of revisit things. You bet, all right, yeah, you'll be shocked both. If you're doing a plant-based diet, you'll be. You know, if you put in, like we've talked about in previous podcasts, some things you used to eat versus. You know, it's kind of empowering to do that because you're like, okay, that was a lot of fat. Yeah, I don't need that much fat exactly all right.
Speaker 1:Next question what plant-based foods are good for calcium intake?
Speaker 1:yay, this is going to be a surprise, I think yeah, it is actually, you know, um, because, as I mentioned before, lots of people think, when you think calcium, where do you get it? Oh, milk. Well, um, I'm not even sure how many of the plant-based milks are fortified with calcium. I haven't looked that up. No, I don't think. Maybe not. So, actually, green leafy vegetables, best source of calcium, most bioavailable, does better than pretty much anything else, for sure, yeah, Get a pound of those Dick.
Speaker 1:There you go. You're not suffering for calcium, that's right. My bones are strong, that's right, that's right. So let's see how do I know if my child question seven how do I know if my child is getting enough calories for proper growth? Well, again, tracking with chronometer, that's a really good thing. I hate to beat a dead horse, but but also plant-based junior same thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, she goes through each.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and it's really nice.
Speaker 2:She divides it up in different age groups and stuff like that. To me it makes someone who's not a physician. It breaks it down quite easily.
Speaker 1:You bet, but in addition to that, and monitoring your diet and your child's diet for calories and all your macronutrients with protein and fats and carbohydrates and whatnot. But then the next step in that is, of course, the regular checkups so that you can actually see black and white on the growth curve. Oh yeah, we're doing great, or, you know, we need to bump something up a little here, you know that's for sure. So regular checkups are are really good for that, as well as keeping up with all the developmental milestones.
Speaker 2:So um plantiful kiki has a plentiful kids Anybody? I don't mean to interrupt you on this but these are some really great recipes.
Speaker 2:This is also on Craig's website plentiful kids and it's just fun ways to make food look good, you know, and fun. Now, it's not necessarily for babies and toddlers she's got preteens and teens. But I think, if you can get it and plant-based juniors on Instagram is really. They're really strong on Instagram and you know, just getting around that and just kind of seeing what they're doing helps you wrap your brain around it. That's what it did for me when I first went plant-based.
Speaker 1:All right. Question number eight and this is a very interesting question We've somewhat addressed it, but not directly Is soy safe for young children?
Speaker 2:I'm glad we're going to talk about this.
Speaker 1:Yes, so yes, in a short, immediate answer, it is very safe, evidenced by one of the major types of formulas is a soy-based formula. You know tofu is a soy product. You know there's a bad rap on soy-based products which is not science-based at all. Which is not science-based it's based on some poorly done old research projects done on mice which suggested some kind of difficulty. But suffice it to say that soy does have a form of an estrogen which has been the big knock Right, and the big concern is that's going to feminize boys and it's going to mess with women's hormones. And here's the problem with that. The estrogen type of molecule that's in soy is what's known as a phytoestrogen, so it actually competes with and down regulates in boys, especially those hormones. So suffice it to say that there's not an estrogen problem.
Speaker 2:And women that actually were given soy during breast cancer treatments actually had a reduction.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's actually extremely healthy and cancer reducing or preventing in many, many cases, the more soy products you eat. One of our favorite guys on YouTube. His name is Derek Simnet. What's his? Simnet Nutrition Simnet Nutrition his YouTube channel. His YouTube channel he talks about. You know, if soy had any kind of feminizing effects, it would be on me, because I eat it every day. Yeah, and this guy is one of the most buff guys I know.
Speaker 2:Same thing with me. I can't ever say his name, right Delgado, but I've never had meat in his life and is a complete vegan bodybuilder, and huge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so yes. Suffice it to say?
Speaker 2:the brief answer is yes, soy is uber safe and you know the soy formulas, as I mentioned, and the tofu can be presented in a myriad of ways. That makes it very tasty and kids won't mind it at all. Well, and to go back to your earlier point, the blood work is your way to say is this good for your body or not? Because we, you know our, our blood work is great and that's what we're eating every day.
Speaker 1:That's right. So next question what are good first foods for vegan babies? Um, you know my general recommendations when babies start to eat, usually somewhere five or six months, four to six months. Four months maybe a little early. It depends on head control and how interested they are. If their head control is pretty good and they're sitting there watching you eat, they may be ready, you know. So I've had good luck recommending anywhere between four and six months, and the first things I've historically recommended have been the rice cereals mixed with either a little breast milk or formula or whatever. Now, one of the things that and I don't know how big of a deal it is, because I've never seen a child with arsenic poisoning In 30 years of pediatric practice it's never been an issue. But there is some nervousness about rice, particularly grown in much of this country, because rice plants tend to absorb more arsenic from the soil.
Speaker 2:Is it about being rice in this country or because it's coming from out of the country?
Speaker 1:It's primarily this country is what I've seen, with one exception If you buy rice that's grown in California and I don't know the reasoning behind this, but that is supposed to have much less arsenic. So if you can find a baby rice cereal that's labeled as having been made from rice grown in California, you're a better bet if you're worried about arsenic.
Speaker 2:So you don't really have a leaning towards four to six months. You think it's either or is fine.
Speaker 1:I think it's whatever the culture of the home brings about and watching the baby and seeing how developmentally appropriate they are. If they're not interested and they're just kind of laying around and their head control isn't so great, maybe wait for a while and truly breast milk gives everything that's needed until even well, after six months. It's more of a developmental thing that we start with the spoon feedings.
Speaker 2:I'm laughing because I remember someone telling me you know, you're just gonna starve that baby because I wasn't gonna. My pediatrician at the time, with carol, was not gonna let me. I was saying six months, you know, and with hate it was more four months, but both those babies were breastfed and they were little chubby babies and so it's like I don't think they were starving.
Speaker 1:No, that makes me a good one so let's see where was I going with that. Oh, other, first foods for babies. You know, um, I've been horrified to learn, um, but sadly not surprised, that even baby foods are full of processed garbage. So a common way I address this with my parents as they're starting this process of spoon feeding. You know, I say, just go down the baby aisle and take a look at the kinds of foods that are in the number one jars, which is usually a single element or a single vegetable or fruit, and it's completely pureed in a smaller jar. And that's a good way to start. And if you're going to make your own because I realize the convenience of those baby jars is huge do one and have the jar and then just reuse the jar.
Speaker 2:Make your own, you know you can make it convenient well, I think once I get into a rhythm of that, it doesn't you know like us, like it's just what you do and then the stage twos.
Speaker 1:Those are also completely pureed, but they are primarily starting to add. They're getting some combinations and the size of the jar is bigger and I usually see kids around age six or seven months going from the stage one to the stage two. And then the stage three foods, which usually start happening around nine months, start getting a little bit of texture in them, not a whole lot, you know, but things that are like noodles or you know things that are pretty mushy but still a little bit of texture, and then that's how that progression has kind of gone. So last question in this arena can my child thrive on a fully plant-based diet long term? Can they? Can they? Yes, a resounding yes Again. A well-monitored diet is important because, like we've talked about all along, you want to make sure they're getting the right proteins, the right fats.
Speaker 2:What's crazy about the standard diet is it makes everybody not even I mean, I feel like for the most part they don't. You know. People are like, oh, I didn't think about what was in the food, but right, with this, it's like, you know, I mean. I go back to dr orange's point. It's not a good diet just for adults or children or diabetics, or it's what's good for a human, it's good for everything, every stage of of life.
Speaker 1:That's right, you know, that's right. Well, and one of our favorite kind of running jokes is some and I forget exactly where this came from, but a vegan guy was being questioned by a non-vegan guy about you know, are you sure you're getting everything? Game changers Was it on Game Changers? It was a launch builder in Game Changers. Yeah, Big, big, tough guy. His response was something to the effect of well, how much of that label of your Kentucky fried chicken are you looking at?
Speaker 2:Well, it's my mom. It blows my mind.
Speaker 1:So most people in the standard American diet don't have any idea that they're only getting 10 grams of fiber a day, and that's more detrimental than a lot of things.
Speaker 2:It just shows like what happened with smoking years ago in marketing. It was you know kind of posh and it was accepted and it was like you know all these things. And it's the same thing with the standard diet. It's like, because they see it enough, it's just considered you bet all right.
Speaker 1:Um, I think we've probably addressed this to some degree, but there was a question related to what are the risks of nutritional deficiencies, because that's what everybody's concerned with. Right, you're going to go vegan, you're going to miss something important. Well, I would offer that you're going to get a lot more. Yes, okay, and that's been my personal experience, but Are there any risks of deficiencies? I would say maybe yes, if you're not monitoring things well.
Speaker 2:Well, and vegan junk food. You know, stereotypes is where this came from.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's no different than if you go to a different culture and you're not aware of it, like, okay, you have some kind of thought in your mind that this is how this works, or whatever, but same thing with the vegan.
Speaker 1:Well, and to the point that we kind of made earlier, you know, if you're not monitoring things real well and you're thinking, okay, rice has enough protein for me, that's where I'm going to get all my protein, well then you're probably gonna have some deficiencies, like a fruitarian diet.
Speaker 2:Right, people are all eating fruit.
Speaker 1:That's not good that's not so good, yeah, so. So yeah, as long as you eat enough calories and eat the rainbow, you're going to do very, very well. However, what are some of the potential things that we need to look for for deficiencies? We've already talked about vitamin B12. And I think everybody in the country, as we mentioned, would stand to do well on a B12 supplement, iron and again, that's only if you're not really looking at all those things that we listed.
Speaker 2:And so with your I'm curious, with your checkups, do you have times where they just do regular blood work just to kind of see their levels?
Speaker 1:Yeah, age one and age two, and then we'll usually do something on around adolescence.
Speaker 2:And will moms, if they're not in this area, like if they have questions? Is that something they should do? Is just pull blood work or ask?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get plenty of parents are saying, well, we've got this or that or the other thing going on. I suppose the most common concern that parents bring their kids in for is we've just been really fatigued lately. We'd like a blood screen, and so we'll do that.
Speaker 2:I don't want to forget this, so I'm interrupting our conversation, but two things that we've added to your website. If people are in northwest Arkansas because of course they would need to go to you if it's like they need all these plant-based things but if you're a vegan mom or you're looking at this and I always say, get a provider on your side, get a pediatrician or someone. So two websites they can look that are on your plant-based resources is plantrition and physicians committee for responsible medicine. Those are both listed. You can go on there, find a provider in your state or a nutritionist, and they're going to be plant-based and they have the science to back you up.
Speaker 2:You know, because this is I'm on some of these vegan pregnancy boards and I see this is what they go through is they don't have somebody. They have a family member. That's maybe and we're going to get into that a little bit, but you know this may be um, given them a hard time. So if you've got a physician backing you up and that's hard to find there there's not many plant-based pediatricians out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's and there's plenty that would say the exact opposite. Absolutely that had no, that have no research.
Speaker 2:That's right, because as doctors we don't get in education and nutrition, but there shouldn't be advice in that if you don't, that's right, the science behind, that's right.
Speaker 1:Other types of deficiencies, you know. I think the whole country would also do well to be on a vitamin D supplement. We just don't get enough sun.
Speaker 2:We're protecting our kids from making sure they don't get sunburn.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. Another thing that's worth watching is the omega-3s, Because most of the foods in this country are very much weighted towards the omega-6s and if you have the wrong ratio of omega-3s to omega-6s, that can set you up to have a lot of inflammatory problems. So flaxseed is one of the best resources for that Hemp seed help me out here.
Speaker 2:Oh, flaxseed chia seed.
Speaker 1:Chia seed. That's the other. Yeah, those are, I think, some of the primary resources.
Speaker 2:I think walnuts have I mean all nuts have it but because of the omega-6 being overwhelmed. If you're needing omega, they can kind of count.
Speaker 1:Counteract that yeah.
Speaker 2:Offset your omega-3s. Omega-3s need to be up there for sure.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Do you all do that? Is there a blood test that they do to check those levels?
Speaker 1:You know it's funny. You asked that because just this last week I had a mom ask me to draw omega-3s, omega-6s and omega-9s. I've never actually even studied about omega-9s. I had to go look it up and it's actually DHA. Okay, yes, yeah, I didn't realize the two were synonymous.
Speaker 2:So so yeah, which is adults were taking DHA, right Right.
Speaker 1:Calcium is another thing, you know, and, like I said, green leafy vegetables is probably the best source of calcium. Would I recommend a supplement for calcium? You know, I think, as we've kind of talked about, bioavailability is much better through foods. Yeah, much better.
Speaker 2:Let's see it's just like a fruit. And again, I've juiced before and will continue to occasionally. But juicing takes out that fiber. But that fruit is in perfect form and the body knows how to metabolize all of it correctly and it breaks it down, so it's not so much hit on the liver. Same thing with natural sources.
Speaker 1:As far as, and last but not least, in terms of things to maybe think a little bit about zinc, the Z end of the alphabet and interestingly, as I'd mentioned, about so much overlap before, what are our good sources of zinc? Whole grains, nuts and seeds and legumes.
Speaker 2:This is not a problem. I'm seeing a pattern here. There's a pattern.
Speaker 1:Yes, all right. So we're going to move from some of those health-type issues to a little bit of a different slant in our last few minutes. How do I handle criticism from family and friends about raising my child vegan?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and I would say first of all, as we've talked about in previous podcasts, know your why, okay, know your why okay, and then you can really rest assured that the science, nutritional science, is behind eating plant-based, and I just want to send a shout out and love to those vegan moms that are doing this, because I have talked with some of them and they are facing some really hard stuff and it it's tough to stand in the gap like this. It's really tough.
Speaker 1:This country is so bent on the standard American diet and needing meat and needing animal-based products that it just doesn't get and not educated in plant-based?
Speaker 1:nutrition. Not yet Exactly, Exactly so and to that end, you know, I would offer that on a kind of a different topic but kind of related. You know, one of my light bulb moments in terms of an old man was recognizing, first of all, our only source of saturated fats is animal based products. In our diet I say only coconut has some, but I'm not a big coconut fan, so I say primary source of saturated fat.
Speaker 1:I have a tiny, tiny bit, but it's not anything to worry about, right, our bodies make some, but the primary source of saturated fats. And what is the cause of the leading cause of death in this country? Heart disease, caused by atherosclerosis, which is generated by too much saturated fat, which creates the plaques which is a foodborne illness.
Speaker 2:A foodborne illness, like dr esselstyn said, it need not exist. And for people that question like, oh, I don't know if this is safe or not, track how people are eating and and see, you know the heart disease and the, and again, that's no blame on someone and saying if someone doesn't know, but, um, you aren't going to, you're going to find plant-based physicians that are in their you know nineties and their hundreds and they're cycling and they're you, you know like. You don't do that unless you're healthy that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:So what should I do if my child wants to try non-vegan foods? Very good question. You know, um I'm hard to answer for everyone and there's not one answer fits all.
Speaker 1:But I go back to a phrase that I use every day in my office with my patients. As I tell them that I'm plant-based, I say look, I'm nobody's food police, all right, as a parent it's a little bit of a different role, but I would also offer that you're not your child's food police, your, your job is to educate. They're going to be growing up in a world away from you and so in our education we need to teach them about all these things. But at the end of the day, every kid leaves the nest, however that looks at. Whatever stage of life, you know it's different. As a five-year-old, he's not actually leaving the nest per se, but he goes to his friend Johnny's house, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:He goes to his friend Johnny's house, and Johnny's not plant-based.
Speaker 2:Guess what's going to be there, you know so um and this is incredibly personal, because if moms are ethical vegans, then it's very important to them and so you know, I think about what rich roll said. He said you know, we try to train up our kids. And he said I would just tell them when I went to a birthday party just make good choices. So he said I wasn't saying yes, I wasn't saying no, and he said but I just felt like you know, kind of teach them and they will come back to it, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:So every parent ultimately has to make that decision for their child, but you know Well, and I would also offer this because, while I truly deeply believe that the whole food plant-based diet is the healthiest way of eating on the planet, for many reasons it's not the only way to eat healthy. All right, and you know, I recognize that probably 80 to 90% of the world will never go completely plant-based and to that end, you know, a Mediterranean diet can be a very healthy option if you don't have other metabolic disease, like I do.
Speaker 2:And there has to be a little bit of discipline there, because, people, it's easy to let a little meat in and a little dairy in a little more and a little more, because it's so addictive.
Speaker 1:Right. So yeah, a true Mediterranean diet, as opposed to the Americanized version, is a big emphasis on fresh fruits and vegetables, but you can add a little bit of meat and oil, okay. So again, these are, like we've talked about, very personal decisions. Lots of reasons to eat this way in terms of plant based, but my job I take it very seriously is just to educate. What's the science behind this. We can't soften it down for people. I'm not going to get into an argument about anything, because I had a dad today, a new patient, and I talked to him about you know, I'm plant based. He says, well, all right, but I'm not giving up my steak. I said not asking you to. You know my job. You're here to see me, that's right. My job is to present the science, and this is actually a young man, probably in his mid to late 30s.
Speaker 2:Probably said a little tongue-in-cheek Maybe but maybe not.
Speaker 1:He probably said a little tongue in cheek, maybe, but maybe not. I'm expecting, as he gets older and starts having the standard American diet, health problems. I mean, that's what happened to me.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's okay because, like I think, some people go like, oh, this is too overwhelming, I could never do this. So our job, you know our job, but our mission on our plant-based page I've got some of my jacket on the fuzzy there it's just to show people this is how you do it. And it's not saying like, look at us, it's just saying I just need to see somebody ahead of me do something I'm wanting to do. And it just breaks it down, you know, because it is kind of like a foreign language when you first start cooking this way, Not so much for babies and toddlers, but definitely for adults.
Speaker 1:I think we kind of answered this next question how can I ensure my child doesn't feel left out at birthday parties or school events? You know, I think that ties into it's hard too. It is hard, but it ties into the whole question about being a food police, and you know, how rigid do you need to be? You know, say, oh, I'm only only, we're only doing plant-based. You know, because there are a lot we eat for many social reasons as well as physical reasons, you know. And so, again, this is a very cultural decision and I love rich roll's approach about you know, just try to make good choices and I also see.
Speaker 2:I see both sides of it, because I think you know it's good to to go with the flow, but I also see these moms who they are ethical vegan moms and it's important to them to be, to not have to, you know, feel like their child's ostracized, just as any religion that maybe does something different. So, man, I just see. So I see both sides of that. Yeah Well, we're about to wrap up. I want to talk about two cookbooks.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yes. So everybody knows that I love Plantiful Kiki. I think she's now going under Kiki Nelson Didn't ever know the last name, but Plantifully Lean was her first cookbook. I have cooked so much out of this cookbook, so this is also on the website. And then Plantifully Simple is her new book so good. So we love Plantiful Kiki and she's got a really strong Instagram channel, and so those are two of my absolute favorites, really simple. The range dressing that we love, love, love is in the first one, and you need both of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're excellent and, just as a reminder, the website that Amy's referring to is myozarkpediatricsorg, and when you yeah, when you go to the opening page, there's a tab at the top that says plant-based resources and that takes you to links to documentaries, YouTube videos, websites, books and cookbooks.
Speaker 2:And our our Facebook page. If they want to be a part of our tribe, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's right. Well, there are a number of other questions here that we could have addressed, but we are about out of time for today, so we'll have to save that for another.
Speaker 2:Okay, we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:See you next time. Thanks for tuning in and, if you can figure out a way, if you have questions stirred up by this you know I'm open. Leave them in the comments. In the comments? Great, I'll be happy to answer anything that we can.
Speaker 2:Okay, sounds good.
