Breaking the Mindset Boxes with Betsy Pepine. (Epi. #256)

Breaking the Mindset Boxes with Betsy Pepine (EPI. #256)

What invisible boxes are shaping your choices — without you realizing it?

In this episode of the Omni Mindfulness Podcast, Shilpa sits down with Betsy Pepine, bestselling author of Breaking Boxes and serial entrepreneur, to explore how inherited beliefs, labels, and expectations quietly limit growth — and how small, conscious pivots can create powerful transformation.

This conversation opens our February series: The Mindset of Alignment, inviting listeners to question old narratives and realign with what’s actually true.

In This Episode, We Explore

• How invisible “boxes” form through family, culture, and industry
• Why labels and habits can become unconscious constraints
• The difference between failure and necessary pivots
• How micro-pivots lead to macro life and business shifts
• What alignment looks like after awareness — without force

This is not about burning everything down.
 It’s about noticing where you’ve outgrown the system you’re running.

🧭 Reflection Prompt

Where might you be living inside a box you never consciously chose — and what would it feel like to loosen it?

🌱 For Founders in Transition

If you’re becoming a founder, redefining your work, or navigating a pivot, you may resonate with Founder’s Why Compass™ — a guided reflection app designed to help you reconnect with your why before making your next move.

Founder’s Why Compass™ offers:

• Guided prompts for clarity during transitions
• Space to reflect, not rush
• Support for found

FOUNDER'S WHY COMPASS

A mini app where neuroscience meets mindfulness. Reflect through Foundation, Transition, Vision — across mind, heart, and somatic body. AI-powered prompts + HeartMath + somatic awareness to keep your why as your north star.

$44/year — Founder's rate ending soon.

👉 compass.omnimindfulness.com

PAUSE WITH PURPOSE QUIZ

Understand your natural traits and archetype in 5 minutes. Free personalized insights.

👉 quiz.omnimindfulness.com/pausewithpurpose

Level up with PodMatch
Match with your ideal podcast guest or host

SPI (Smart Passive Income)
Earn smart passive income while you relax or work!

White Beard Strategies AI Bazaar
AI trainings and tools to build authority, visibility, and scalable business systems.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

epi 256 betsy habit boxes

[00:00:00] What if habits you live by have quietly become your invisible box?

[00:00:09] Before we begin, notice where you feel confined right now, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally. What expectation, role, or routine feels like it's shaping your choices without being questioned...

[00:00:35] welcome to the Omni Mindfulness Podcast. I'm Shilpa, and this is where we challenge what we've been told is possible and discover what's actually true.

[00:00:46] In Today's conversation. I'm joined by Betsy Pepin, bestselling author of Breaking Boxes and Serial Entrepreneur in Real Estate. We inherit so many [00:01:00] invisible boxes from family, from culture, from industries that teach us how to succeed, how to belong, and how to behave.

[00:01:10] And often we don't even realize we're living inside those constraints until something starts to feel heavy or misaligned. You'll hear how habits and labels, even the ones that once felt. Stabilizing can slowly become limits,

[00:01:30] and if you stay with me till the end, you may begin to notice which box you're ready to loosen and which one no longer need to come with you.

[00:01:43] Through our journey of leaving partnerships, rebranding businesses, and redefining success, Betsy explores the unseen boundaries we accept as truths. And how awareness alone can begin to shift them. The boxes we [00:02:00] live in aren't permanent. They're just waiting to be noticed. So let's step in.

[00:02:12] Shilpa: welcome, Betsy. 

[00:02:14] Betsy: Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. 

[00:02:17] Shilpa: I'm excited to have you, especially as we are talking about the subject of mindset, which is something that. We need to often recalibrate in our hearts and minds, literally from our heart, because sometimes that's the catalyst.

[00:02:32] Shilpa: And then I would say taking a conscious or intentional effort to implement practices. And this is where I think you have the wisdom. You've written a book, maybe can start with your backstory. 

[00:02:45] Betsy: How far back? 

[00:02:47] Shilpa: Well, maybe even just the catalyst behind, going into this focused area and then writing a book about it.

[00:02:54] Betsy: Yeah. So, 'cause that has, it's interesting 'cause most people, when they realize they wrote a [00:03:00] book, they assume that I wrote a book about business because that's what I'm known for. I'm a serial entrepreneur in all things real estate. I got into real estate 20 years ago. Love it. But the book and the journey for the book started about 10 years ago

[00:03:14] Betsy: I was feeling that I was going through my life. I'm 56 right now, so about 10 years ago, 46. I just felt like I was not happy. Through a lot of different modalities, therapy, EMDR, yoga, meditation energy healing, so many different things. I'm very open to things like that.

[00:03:34] Betsy: I discovered, that the source of my unhappiness was coming from feeling like a very confined box that I put myself in. Or, I mean, these are not physical boxes. I can just open the door, right? But I was feeling like I was truly suffocating and trying to understand why was that, and understanding that it's just.

[00:03:57] Betsy: For me, I was living under and for [00:04:00] the expectations of others, whether it was my family of origin, institutions like my religion or my industry or my gender. You know, just feeling bombarded by all these. Entities outside of self telling me how to live, what to believe, and what I wanted.

[00:04:18] Betsy: And so, it was through that exploration and my journaling that the book came to be. And the book is called Breaking Boxes. Dismantling the metaphorical boxes that bind us, because that's what I felt like I was trying to do. And I'm on a journey. I feel like I've broken out of a lot of boxes, but it's a journey I'll never have.

[00:04:36] Betsy: You know, it's not ever complete. But, the more I have delved into it, the more I see there's so many boxes that we are surrounded ourselves in and, how we negotiate them and understanding. Why we choose often to stay and reside and take up residence in boxes that no longer serve us.

[00:04:58] Betsy: So they must be [00:05:00] subconsciously or, um, unconsciously serving us in some way. And what way is that? And then once we're intentional about it, do we truly wanna stay in these boxes or do we wanna exit them? So that's kind of how the journey started. 

[00:05:14] Shilpa: The, catalyst behind the. Metaphor, so to speak, of boxes.

[00:05:20] Shilpa: Sounds like it came through a lot of introspection. 

[00:05:24] Betsy: Yes. A lot of introspection. A lot of vulnerability. You know, I had, especially with the therapy, I came from a family where therapy was shunned and therapy was for, you know, just a very outdated belief on, you know, why we need a therapist. And so, in fact, I don't even know if.

[00:05:43] Betsy: I'm not sure anybody in my family knows I've been in therapy, you know? And so even just, that was a box that I had to get over myself because I had to say to myself, no, I'm not crazy, but I want therapy. I want help. Why not? Like I get help in every other facet of my life. I've had sports coaches, [00:06:00] I've had business coaches.

[00:06:01] Betsy: Why am I so resistant to. A coach for how to live a life that's fulfilling, you know? And so that was one of many boxes that I had to overcome and talk about mindset, like just reframing that and what does that mean? Doesn't mean anything other than I'm a seeker and want to better myself, you know?

[00:06:21] Shilpa: I, I do, uh, I've had this conversation for years before I even stepped into the mindfulness space. Um, because when you talked about these boxes, either conscious or unconscious, maybe it's the upbringing you had, maybe it was the religion, maybe societal expectations of being a woman. 

[00:06:40] Betsy: And 

[00:06:40] Shilpa: then there are these labels, and I used to use this metaphor that when I was in corporate.

[00:06:45] Shilpa: I was put in a box and then labeled 

[00:06:49] Betsy: and 

[00:06:49] Shilpa: put on a shelf and like, that's all she can do. 

[00:06:51] Betsy: Yes. Exactly. And that's, that's the, you know, I, I write about that in my book. The, that's the scary part about [00:07:00] labels. I mean, I understand labels, you know, we're hunter gatherers. We had to know probably the very first labels was, you know, safe or not safe.

[00:07:06] Betsy: Right. What's gonna kill us and eat us and what's not, you know, years and years ago, and we get bombarded with so much information that we have to quickly classify things to live. But the minute you put a label on something, you stop seeing it. You just do. It's human nature to stop seeing that.

[00:07:25] Betsy: And that's where the danger is we put labels on so many things and then we become tunnel vision about what we see in that person or ourselves. 

[00:07:34] Shilpa: And I suppose that may have also been the reason in the early parts of the conversation, you mentioned some level of unhappiness or dissatisfaction.

[00:07:43] Shilpa: But that is something that is prevalent in so many people. Because it's unusual for most people to think that is this box the only box? Am I really inside of this box? Do I need to be there? So it sounds like your book is challenging [00:08:00] the status quo. 

[00:08:01] Betsy: Mm-hmm. Very much so.

[00:08:02] Shilpa: Yeah. 

[00:08:03] Betsy: Very much so. 

[00:08:04] Shilpa: So by the time you started writing the book and going through the process, which, you know, writing a book. I believe is challenging because you're really having to meet soul and system because there's some method to the madness. Tell me about that process and then coming out of it, what is this healing process like for you?

[00:08:23] Betsy: Well, it's funny you mentioned, that I had to. Um, I started, I'm not a writer, right? So I, I mean, I've written papers for college, but I'm not a writer and so I joined a writing circle, whatever, I don't know what they called it, but basically a writing group.

[00:08:40] Betsy: And I was the newbie in it. These were experienced writers. They had all published books before, and I felt very intimidated, but I'm like, okay, I want their advice. And so every. Week, you submit 20 pages, and then they all read it, and then you gather together and they critique it. And my very first, submission was the Table of Contents.

[00:08:59] Betsy: And then 20 [00:09:00] pages. Well, my table of contents were all lowercase, like the title of the chapters all lowercase on purpose, right. Very first comment, very seasoned writer, said, Betsy, why did you, you know, your table of contents aren't capitalized. You know, basically she didn't think that I knew grammar, which my mother was a grammar teacher.

[00:09:19] Betsy: I'm very, very well reversing grammar. And she said, you know, why are you doing that? And it was very accusatory. And I was, you know, I was intimidated. I was a new person in the group. And I said, well, before I answer that, what is making you ask me that question? And she said, because you never see it this way, you always see it capitalized.

[00:09:39] Betsy: And I said, that's exactly why I did it this way, because I wanted the reader's first reaction to be, oh, this is different. It doesn't have to be always capitalized. And because we do so many things and we don't even question why we do it, you know? And so I thought that was so interesting that here my book is talking [00:10:00] about getting outside the boxes, and she just gave me a beautiful example of why I felt so compelled to write this book.

[00:10:09] Shilpa: And it's so funny you should mention that

[00:10:10] Shilpa: it's a box. Yeah. 

[00:10:14] Betsy: I did have to, when I had my, so I had a, a reading coach, a different than the group and I would send it work to her too. And it was, that was difficult for me. 'cause my mom was a grammar teacher and so I, I am very well versed in grammar and, and she said. Betsy, um, uh, published novels now, or this is a memoir, but there's so much more less formal in writing, and I had to get used to that.

[00:10:42] Betsy: She's like, you can end a, you can end a sentence with a preposition. And I was like, oh my gosh, really? You know? And she's like, yeah, really? And I mean, so many things that I felt like were all these. Rules and like they're no longer, I guess, rules and I mean even just simple as you don't double spa, you don't do two spaces after a period anymore.[00:11:00] 

[00:11:00] Betsy: I'm like, oh, okay. I didn't know that. 

[00:11:02] Shilpa: Yeah. And that's kind of predated to the whole typewriter era. 

[00:11:05] Betsy: Yeah. 

[00:11:07] Shilpa: Well there's, so I just love this conversation because we, we are sort of through metaphors. Unraveling the different ways in which we find ourselves at different points in our lives. Oh 

[00:11:18] Betsy: yeah.

[00:11:19] Shilpa: Unhappy. 

[00:11:19] Betsy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I remember, so I got divorced, I got married when I was 23 or 24, got divorced when I was 32. I had a one and 2-year-old daughter at the time, the first doctor's appointment I had after getting divorced. Um, you know, you do the patient intake form once a year.

[00:11:36] Betsy: You gotta update your information. Well, the first question was, um, you know, check the box. What is you know, what's your marital status? And it was single, married, divorced, widowed. Prior to that, I had answered that question countless times and never thought anything of it. When I was looking at that form [00:12:00] at 32 years old, just going through a divorce, I froze, and I mean, the visceral reaction was crazy and I was so offended.

[00:12:09] Betsy: I felt so, I mean, I just. Disproportionate to what I should have, but I'm like, what in the world? Why would they need to know what? Because to me, like so, I mean truly the question's asking that, right? So why do they need to know if I am currently in a relationship that I deem serious enough to take it to the courthouse steps to get their stamp of approval?

[00:12:33] Betsy: What relevance is that to them being able to give me my pap smear? Right. I mean nothing. And, and then I'm like, wait a minute. I was single. I was married. I'm now divorced, but I'm also single now. Right? And then I'm like, at what point? And I remember thinking this, and now it's 20 some years later, 37 years later, I'm still divorced and I'm still single.

[00:12:57] Betsy: At what point are we [00:13:00] allowed to. Become no longer identify as divorce, but now we're back to single. I mean, it's ridiculous, right? 

[00:13:06] Shilpa: Yeah. 

[00:13:07] Betsy: And I do, I just knew the minute I checked the box, whoever's reading it will think something more than just, oh, she's in a relationship that's serious. Like there's more adjectives going on in their mind than that.

[00:13:23] Betsy: So I didn't check the box. I didn't check any box. I was so mad. I turned it in and I got a pap smear. 

[00:13:30] Shilpa: Well, and we deal with those boxes, like not only those physical boxes we feel like we're constrained in, but like you were talking about societal boxes. I mean, I'm Indian, but often when I go to a form I'm asked, what kind of, you know what?

[00:13:48] Shilpa: What are you? And I used to think, well. Am I Asian because I think of Asians as different, but I was born in America and I'm very Americanized so truly, am I still Indian? [00:14:00] Well, Hinduism, so maybe it's, it's all very confusing. 

[00:14:04] Betsy: Right, right, right. 

[00:14:06] Shilpa: Yeah. So now in, in the process of writing the book, who were you imagining speaking to?

[00:14:14] Shilpa: Was it yourself? Because you mentioned it's a memoir. Or were there other women? 

[00:14:19] Betsy: No, it was not myself. I wrote the book because my life mission is to improve and empower the lives of women and children and everything I do, pretty much everything I do is geared with that mindset.

[00:14:32] Betsy: So I thought I knew how much this was holding me back. I had to share that with others. And when I started sharing my stories, not even before I wrote the book, but I started sharing the stories. The reactions were so wonderful and they're like, oh my gosh, I do have choices.

[00:14:51] Betsy: 'cause you can't exit a box, one that you don't know you're in. And two unless you realize there's choices outside the box. And so just giving them the freedom. [00:15:00] To know that there's options out there that you may not be aware of. Somebody said, you know, why did you write the book?

[00:15:05] Betsy: The book was birthed, like it was coming out, because I just felt that there are women like me that needed or would like to hear this message. 

[00:15:17] Shilpa: And this process of writing it, has it shifted other boxes around your life? Meaning maybe, you mentioned you were in real estate before.

[00:15:26] Shilpa: You're doing something different. Like are you. Doing coaching now, it sounds like. Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:29] Betsy: Yeah. I've coached in real estate and one-on-one coaching is not for me. And I recognize that in real estate. But I did do that for a while.

[00:15:36] Betsy: I do like mentoring, but I have been doing a lot of speaking. Um, interestingly, I used to speak about real estate, and again, it's like this, I had this in a box. Well, my book is really not business.

[00:15:47] Betsy: It's like this passion project, but businesses saw it and said, no, I want you to come speak in my company. 'cause other people are in these boxes. And so I'm speaking at businesses [00:16:00] about my book, which I never thought I could marry the two. Like I didn't see that synergy, but others did. So, um, I've been doing that and then I developed a course because the book is.

[00:16:11] Betsy: A thematic memoir with a little bit of how to, but a lot of stories that they're universal stories, but they're my stories. And a lot of women said, well, how do I do this for myself? And so then I created a course that walks people through how to kind of do their own journey of uncovering the boxes.

[00:16:30] Betsy: And then the other thing it did is it made me even more cognizant of the boxes that I put other people in. You know, and not recognizing that that's not serving them or me. 

[00:16:46] Shilpa: That's interesting. So by becoming more conscious or aware, how you may have given other people or labeled them with a box.

[00:16:54] Shilpa: Mm-hmm. But then also recognizing how to then create a [00:17:00] framework around your. Wisdom around this. Based on life lessons, You've created this course. Tell me about how the course can help someone. Meaning, at the end of, the course, going from the challenge of feeling boxed

[00:17:16] Shilpa: and then realizing there's more. I'm more than the box. 

[00:17:22] Betsy: Right. 

[00:17:23] Shilpa: And kind of step me through that and who would be your ideal client for that? 

[00:17:27] Betsy: Yeah. So the process for me and what I talk about in the course is first recognizing that there are boxes that are not serving you. And the way to do that for me is 'cause I think sometimes our mind can get us.

[00:17:46] Betsy: Misdirected. If we are more in tune with what our body is telling us, we will stay on course. And so for me, that was really getting in tune with my body and how I'm feeling. That was a whole journey in of itself because I [00:18:00] was not raised in a household that was, it was all cerebral. It was all math and science.

[00:18:04] Betsy: It's not how you feel, Betsy. It's what you think. And so really getting, adept at. Recognizing how I feel and what that is telling me. And so I literally have this app on my phone. It's called How We Feel, and it's a free app. It's a great app and it's free. And you can set it for whatever you want, but I have it for four times a day, it vibrates.

[00:18:29] Betsy: And right now it says, how are you feeling this afternoon? And I can check in. And then it gives you four very big bubbles. And then once you pick. Let's say I'm high energy, pleasant. Then you get a ton of other bubbles to further describe how you might be feeling, I needed this because this gave me the vocabulary to describe how I was feeling.

[00:18:48] Betsy: Because when I first started therapy, she's like, how are you feeling? It's either I'm feeling good or I'm feeling bad. And that was it. And she's like, well, tell me more. And I'm like, what do you mean? I don't know. I didn't have the vocabulary and I don't think you can.[00:19:00] 

[00:19:00] Betsy: I think it really helps if you can fine tune the nuances of your feelings. So that's what this app does. It really makes you, align with how you're feeling. And then it lets you write in who are you with, what are you doing, and what environment are you in? So you can start seeing the patterns what's making you feel good, what's making you feel bad, and it's truly this simple move towards that which makes you feel good.

[00:19:23] Betsy: Yeah, it truly is. And so, um, that's kind of how I figure out what's not leading me or where is this feeling of confinement and how do I identify that? Then I gotta figure out why am I staying? And that's usually a fear-based response, you know? So fear of failure, which I have learned is truly a box that is a label that you can choose to have in your life.

[00:19:45] Betsy: I've chosen not to have that in my life, but it's a label that people put on outcomes. But you don't have to. Right. So that's why I tell my agents, like, there's no such thing as failure. It doesn't mean life always goes our way. It means even [00:20:00] if it doesn't go our way, yeah. We have to pivot.

[00:20:03] Betsy: But anybody older than the age of 30 has had to pivot at some point in their life and they didn't want to, and they're still here. So you've proven to yourself that you can do it. So, okay. Yes. I may have to pivot and. I will have learned something very valuable that I get to take with me for the rest of my life.

[00:20:22] Betsy: So that's worst case scenario, that's not failure. Right? And science has shown, worst case scenarios only happen 3% of the time. So it's like, okay, so failure doesn't exist. So that one you can check off. It could be a fear of loss. So that's like ego-based, fear of, loss of status.

[00:20:40] Betsy: Like I definitely felt that when I decided to move from the pharma industry to real estate in my family, healthcare was the, you know, that's where the highest level of esteem in my family was. And so to be anything but in healthcare was considered a huge demotion, um, in, in my family [00:21:00] currency. And I felt that.

[00:21:02] Betsy: You have to really shore up your ego, recognize that that's your ego. And I've had to, mentally say to myself, Betsy, put your ego on the shelf, and you've gotta move forward in the direction of your dreams. Some people have to work through that.

[00:21:13] Betsy: If they're really identify with their ego and recognize that they are not their ego. And then it could be fear of loss of financial security. Especially if you're switching careers, that's a big one where you're gonna. Go from a very secure job to maybe an entrepreneurship job or like you said, you were in the corporate and now you're doing something on your own.

[00:21:30] Betsy: Like, that's kind of scary, especially if there's no other income coming in. I think that one's easier now than, you know, 20 some years ago because the gig economy, there's so many ways you can supplement your income and drive for Uber or whatever you wanna do to supplement as you get going. Remote work has become so much more.

[00:21:48] Betsy: Mainstream than it was 20 years ago. So I do feel like there's a lot of options for people that were not available to us decades ago. So it's really just breaking down and identifying [00:22:00] exactly what fear is holding you back, and then taking baby steps to address those fears. Um, you know, I think another big one is loss of friends or loss of social connection.

[00:22:13] Betsy: I always look at when you're making this move, any move. It's like a chess game and you've just moved a piece on the chess board. Well, the whole game has changed. Now you are going to upset some people. You just are. People resist change. They don't like change, even if it's for the better.

[00:22:30] Betsy: You know, humans like. Consistency and so you're going to upset and ruffle some feathers. Just know that going in and shore up connections for that future version of yourself because you know you're gonna lose some people on the back end. Something that I had to really come to grips with is I used to think if a relationship ended.

[00:22:53] Betsy: Platonic or otherwise, it was a failure. It didn't work. And I've learned it's not at all, [00:23:00] it served its purpose for both of us. We both learned and grew from the experience and it wasn't meant to last for a lifetime. And that's okay. It's like pruning back a bush for regrowth and so.

[00:23:15] Betsy: That's a mindset shift that I've had to make myself more comfortable letting go of relationships that, you know, a decade ago I would've held onto when it wasn't healthy for either of us. Yeah. So identifying, you know, what fears are holding you back, 

[00:23:29] Shilpa: and that fear factor is so prevalent in almost everyone.

[00:23:34] Shilpa: Even those from the outside, I believe, that appear successful. They still are maybe, uh, what is the right word for it? They're being driven by fear. If you are, you know? Yeah. And they might be appearing very successful, but the drive might be coming from fear.

[00:23:52] Betsy: Fear of not looking important or not being important or You know, I think a lot of people who are driven, and I fall into [00:24:00] this and I have to catch myself as I used to do this to a much greater extent, and I still do, sadly, to some extent, place my value in life on my productivity. And so it's a fear base.

[00:24:13] Betsy: Like if I don't, if I stop producing, I fear I have no value, you know? And that's sad, you know, I'm working on that, but that's definitely a big fear, I think, for some people who are driven. 

[00:24:25] Shilpa: Yeah. And that's so true for so many people. I see that in my elderly dad, I feel like, came from a generation where men had a certain role and he feels like that's where his value is.

[00:24:37] Betsy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:38] Shilpa: I'm often recognizing that from a place of empathy. Again, that label, it's another label, projection label or a box. I love the word pivot you used at some point. 'cause I'm writing a course, I've designed a course around micro pivots in life and pivots in general.

[00:24:59] Shilpa: And [00:25:00] that is something that I believe we are often doing. And it might appear from the surface again without some level of kind of inner work that. We've done. Yeah. That, that pivot is a sign of failure, but I think those micro pivots when done with intentionality and consciousness are actually, evolving.

[00:25:21] Betsy: Yeah. No, totally. 

[00:25:22] Shilpa: Well, Betsy, now that you've come full circle, you've written this book, how long has it been out there and what's next for you? 

[00:25:30] Betsy: So the book was published almost a year. Wow. Literally almost a year to the day. And then the course came out about two months ago.

[00:25:39] Betsy: And, you know, I see myself doing more speaking and, perhaps doing a follow-up course. People have asked about another book. I think if I did a book, it would be more like a workbook or a companion journal to the book that I wrote. And that's all I can see right now in that section of my life.

[00:25:59] Shilpa: Yeah. [00:26:00] Are you still a practicing real estate? 

[00:26:01] Betsy: Oh yeah. That's my full-time gig. I love it. 

[00:26:04] Shilpa: That's great. I truly enjoyed this conversation. Any words of wisdom for. People that are listening that are ready for that mindset shift and new beginnings. Think of it as, your life is open canvas and you get to make it what you want. 

[00:26:20] Betsy: Yeah. I mean, I think that's great if people already have that mindset and just a mantra. I always, i'm telling myself and truly believe is that everything is happening for us, not to us. So there's nothing to fear, you know?

[00:26:34] Shilpa: Wonderful. I really enjoyed our conversation. I felt like it will give so much value to people on so many levels. Thank you so much. 

[00:26:43] Betsy: Oh, you're welcome. My pleasure. 

[00:26:45] Shilpa: Thank you, Betsy.