Codependent Doctor
Podcast focusing on codependency. Learning how to create healthier relationships, healthier self and healthier lives.
Codependent Doctor
65: Recognizing Emotional Vampires: Setting Boundaries and Reclaiming Your Peace with Daniel Ratner
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In this episode of The Codependent Doctor, I’m joined by Daniel Ratner, relationship coach and author, to talk about Emotional Vampires, the people in our lives who leave us feeling drained, overwhelmed, or emotionally exhausted. We explore why we stay in unhealthy relationships, how self-esteem plays a role in who we attract, and what it actually takes to set boundaries without drowning in guilt. Daniel also shares practical tools for protecting your emotional energy, navigating difficult family and work relationships, and identifying the “keepers” , the people who bring peace, kindness, empathy, and respect into your life.
Books mentioned from Daniel Ratner
- Sunscreen Love
- Never Feel Unloved Again
- Emotional Vampires
These are affiliate links and I may earn a commission at no cost to you
Connect with Daniel:
Website: coachratner.com
Instagram: thecoachratnerpodcast
This episode includes a paid partnership with BetterHelp. Click this link, betterhelp.com/drdowney, to get 10% off your first month.
📗 My Books: Enough as I Am (codependency recovery) Enough as I Grow (365 day guide journal). Affiliate disclosure: I am an affiliate parner with Amazon and therefore receive a commission at no cost to you.
📙My Favorite books:
Daring Greatly by Brenee Brown, It Begins With You by Jillian Turecki, Becoming Bulletproof by Evy Poumpouras, The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins, Real Self-Care by Pooja Lakshmin.
Affiliate disclosure: I am an affiliate parner with Amazon and therefore receive a commission at no cost to you.
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Email: codependentdoctor@gmail.com
Social Media links: Here
🎵 Music: Touching The Air by Graceful Movement
Have you ever left a conversation feeling completely drained? Like your energy just got quietly stolen? Maybe it's that one friend who always needs rescuing, or a coworker who leaves you emotionally wiped out after every chat. We all have people in our lives who can feel a little exhausting at times. In today's episode, we're talking about what my guest Daniel Ratner calls emotional vampires. The people who suck your happiness dry without even realizing it. Daniel's a relationship coach and author who helps people identify these draining patterns, set boundaries that actually stick and reclaim their peace of mind. This conversation is equal parts funny, relatable, and wildly practical, because Daniel doesn't just name the problem, he's going to be giving you some tools to protect your emotional energy starting today. Think of it as your metaphorical garlic necklace, minus the smell.
Defining Emotional Vampires
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Codependent Doctor, a podcast where we unpack the messy, beautiful journey of healing from codependency. If you're burned out from people pleasing, stuck in unhealthy patterns, or just tired of putting yourself last, you're in the right place. I'm Dr. Angela Downey, a family doctor and fellow codependent, and I'm here to help you reconnect to your authentic self. One honest conversation at a time. Here we go. Hello to all my wonderful podcast listeners, and welcome to the Codependent Doctor Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Angela Downey, a family doctor and fellow codependent, here to help us untangle our patterns, heal our hearts, and reclaim our peace. For today's episode, we have a guest with us. Daniel Ratner is a relationship coach, speaker, and author helping people build healthier connections by recognizing draining patterns and setting stronger boundaries. A former entrepreneur turned personal growth expert, he is the author of Infinite Marriage and the 10 Secrets to a Passionate Marriage with his upcoming book, Emotional Vampires, teaching readers how to protect their happiness from toxic people. Through his coaching, books, and public talks, Daniel provides clear, practical tools for improving
Meet Daniel Ratner And His Work
SPEAKER_00self-esteem, cultivating keepers, and creating relationships that fuel joy. Welcome, Daniel. I'm so glad to have you join us today. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_01I'm great. Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_00No, I've been looking forward to this uh conversation for a while since um you reached out to me. So I'm glad that we're finally getting into touch base.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Daniel, one of the traditions on my show is that we discuss what we're grateful for because when we stop and think about what we're grateful for, it helps our brains focus on what's working instead of what's missing or what's broken. So I'd like to ask you if there's anything that you're especially grateful for today.
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm grateful for clarity and I'm grateful for that my wife and children, really. I'm very blessed to have an amazing family. And it all I think it all comes from having clarity in what you want in your life and how to understand relationships and how to understand people. And that I wasn't given such a large, large ego. So I don't have to be right about everything, but I but I understand relationships. That's one of my get that's one of my gifts that God gave me.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. And you get to use that every day, and I'm glad you're gonna do it. Every day of my life to yeah, live your life doing what you love. Yeah. I um I was trying to think of something I was grateful for today, and I just my eyes set on this like beautiful bouquet of flowers that's um sitting on my countertop. So my partner gave me a bouquet of flowers, and I was just grateful that I had somebody in my life who cared about making things beautiful for me. So maybe we can start by having you tell people who you are and how you became to be a relationship coach.
SPEAKER_01I just got married like most people do, and I have most people have no idea what they're doing when they get married. They spend more time learning to get a driver's license, they do understand what it be what it means to be in a relationship. So I started taking classes from different teachers, and I was blown away by how much people don't know. And so I started teaching, and one idea led to another, and I started teaching classes on dating and marriage, and then it kind of morphed into self-esteem, and it also morphed into parenting and also how we manage relationships between our friends and our family. And that's my new book, Emotional Vampires. And I have a lot of very unique, unique ideas that I think that resonate with people. I have a passion is to build uh relationships that last a lifetime. You know, because you take a hundred marriages in the world today, how many get how many how many get divorced?
SPEAKER_00How many get divorced,
Types Of Draining People
SPEAKER_00and maybe the ones that don't get divorced, some of them maybe aren't getting along so well.
SPEAKER_01Well, I would I would say, but let's say half get divorced, or the other half, how many are in passionate, loving relationships? It's ridiculous because no one knows what they're doing when they get married. They have no idea. And that's what I that's what I teach. I teach what the women need, and I teach what the men need, and I and I and I teach how to keep that relationship, as I say, hot. You know.
SPEAKER_00Right. Ke to to keep things going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you mentioned emotional vampire. Yeah. What what is that?
SPEAKER_01So emotional vampires are people in our life that drain us of energy. I have about 12 different categories that I came up with. Some of them are very uh tame like the drama queen, or it could be queen king also, obviously. And some can be dangerous like the narcissist. And you have people like non-stop talkers and the overly dependent, and um the border crossers and the projectors, and then you have the big one, which is in uh brothers, sisters, parents, and in-laws that can drain you of energy, and you have no choice. And the purpose of the book is to go through all the, and I include teenagers and terrible twos in that also, because I uh because they can drain you if you have children. And so what I did is I I I go to the book and I I said I do a friend auto, which means most of our friends that we have in our life are there because of circumstance or an event. Not that we really chose them. We we went to school with them, they grew up with them, our parents are friends, and as you get older, and you know, out of your 20s and 30s and your 40s and 50s, you start being more careful about who you have in your life because you learn that wait a second, that person drains me with energy. I I don't need so many friends. You know, in your 20s, you go to college, everyone's your friend. They're not really your friends, they're really just acquaintances. And so the book goes really into depths of what it means to be a real friend. And then if you don't have to have in your life, you know, you have to control your happiness because no one else can help you. No one else can help affect your happiness except yourself. And so you have to put a fence around your happiness, keep people, keep people out that drain you, and keep people in that make you happy. And one of the main purposes of the book, when I when I write a book, I I give the problem and I give the answer. And the answer is that we want to find the keepers in our life. This is the end of the book. It's about uh keepers is an acronym, and you get rid of two E's, and you get rid of envy and ego, because you don't need them in your life. Anyone who has envy is never happy what they have in life. They don't like that job, that house, that car, that body, that whatever that wife, that husband, whatever it does, they want something better, and they're never happy. And then ego will destroy relationships. Ego, you as I say, your ego is not your amigo, it's not your friend. We have to have an ego in sort of survive. But when it gets to be too large
Keepers: A Better Way To Choose Friends
SPEAKER_01and you think you control the world, and you know, narcissists have large egos also, even though it's not real, it's all it's all make-believe. Um it destroys relationships, and you're left with four letters K, P, E, R. And they stand for kind, peaceful, empathetic, and respectful. And if you can find people like that in your life, not only can you marry them, but you can also have friends like that. And if you have friends that don't fulfill those four things, maybe they shouldn't be your friends in life. You know, and empathetic people are are are the great people to have because they they are able to open up. Actually, one of the other categories of emotional vampires, two of the categories are emotional constipation. These are people who you marry, and they probably fit into the other category as socially awkward. And you marry them, you can get along with them, they're fine. But after five, ten years of living with them, you as a as a spouse, you need someone to open up to. You need someone to understand your feelings and be able to listen to you and not just like, uh. You need something to feel your pain. And if you have someone that's not sharing their feelings or not accepting your feelings, you can stay married, but it's not a very passionate relationship.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_00And it's not a lot of fun, right? It feels empty and not only that to be able to communicate with your spouse.
SPEAKER_01No, it's horrible because a relationship is based on, as I call the pies, and that stands for physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. It's the four letters, P-I-E-S. And when there's a physical problem in a relationship, it's not physical, it's emotional. So I teach men how to make that emotional connection to their spouses or their girlfriends so they can have a great physical relationship. Y'all go hand in hand.
SPEAKER_00How can you tell if you've got an emotional vampire in your life?
SPEAKER_01Well, we all do. We all do. Like I said, some are okay. Like I like I I like drink, I like being drama adjacent. I like people who are drama queens. I just, you know, I'm not married to one, thank God, but like I can hang out with them just for a short period of time.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So there's a chapter called the um Are You an Emotional Vampire? And I go through different questions that ask, like, for example, um, do you have a hard time keeping relationships? Do people zone out when you're talking to them? Do you have a hard time keeping appointments? Like different different questions that go into like if you're an emotional vampire. And if someone says, I have no emotional vampires in my life, they're probably one.
SPEAKER_00And it's probably oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_01They're probably probably way because every everyone has them. And some of them you have to have. For example, your boss or co-worker or your family member. And so the book is based on how to make relationships happen, how to make relationships healthy that you have to have in your life, especially with your parents and your brothers and sisters.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it's interesting how you say that if you don't have any of this, these, then you're probably an emotional vampire. It reminds me of someone saying, Um, when I was, I'm like, Am I a narcissist? And they're like, if you're asking, if you're a narcissist, you are narcissists.
SPEAKER_01You're not a narcissist. Yeah. You know, it's funny because some guy asked me this week at uh when I was when I was coaching all these people, and it was a single shot, it was a singles event. And so one guy, am I a narcissist? I was like, You're probably not,
Emotional Constipation And PIES Framework
SPEAKER_01but you can have narcissist tendencies and not be a full-blown narcissist. Right? I probably went through periods of life, my 20s, when I was arrogant and ego, and my probably had some narcissist tendencies, but now I recognize all these things and and uh I know I'm not a narcissist. But there are, and they're very I and I have what I call my innate art, it's my narcissist radar out right now. When I meet men and women who are sit who have been divorced in their 40s and 50s and are very, very charismatic. I have I have my radar out because I'm like, you know, charismatic narcissists are very charismatic people.
SPEAKER_00Why do you think a lot of us stay in these relationships that are draining us for a lot longer than we should be?
SPEAKER_01Well, because number one, we don't know how to manage them. The big mistake that we made was getting into those relationships without knowledge, and that's why I I try to teach people how to understand. I've I have a list of questions that you have to ask before you get married, and I also have a worksheet in my sunscreen love book, like how to find out who's good for your relationship. Um a common theme in the world today is that people in the non-religious world, people will meet in their 20s and they start dating, and they don't know why they're dating, and they're cute, and some guy asks them out and whatever, and they start dating, they fall into a physical relationship, they confuse infatuation with love because they don't really know what love is. And they're comfortable and they date four or five years. Oh, you're single, I'm single, I like kids, you want kids, and they get married and they wonder why ten years later they'll have a relationship. Because they're dating, they weren't dating from marriage, they were dating for no absolute reason whatsoever. This is why I I clarify when I teach my students you if you're dating because you want a guy to take you to the movies, great. Clarify it, but don't confuse that with a guy who should be the father of your children. Just because you like splitting an appetizer with them doesn't mean you should be splitting your DNA with them, right? And people have no idea, so they fall into these relationships and they fall fall apart.
SPEAKER_00What is it you should be looking for?
SPEAKER_01Besides your keepers, you know, you're kind, peaceful, empathetic, and respectful, emotionally healthy people are the most important. That's the most important aspect. Someone's emotionally healthy, and you can learn a lot by the family. Um, you know, uh uh one red flag automatically goes up when there's a divorce, it doesn't mean you can't be in a passionate relationship, it just means there's some issues that have to be dealt with. When there's dysfunction or abuse, it's it's it's not a good sign. Things like this can carry over from generation to generation. And I as I teach, if you want your kids to have a great marriage, you have to show them what a great marriage is. That's where kids learn from. It's not always the case, obviously, but it's a good start.
SPEAKER_00So there's a lot of people in the population who grew up in, I don't know, I'll maybe I'll call it a dysfunctional household where marriage healthy marriage and communication wasn't emulated. Maybe there was some abuse, maybe there is alcoholism. So a lot of people come from these um households that just aren't great, that fall outside of this definition you're giving. But that that obviously does not mean that three-quarters of the population shouldn't be getting married or shouldn't be.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So it what it means is that recognizing the fact that you came from these backgrounds and actually understanding that you need to have a little bit of counseling in order to be in a relationship. That I think um what happens, I think, from divorce is that the the injury that's internal. You know, parents who get divorced will say, Oh, our children are much better off getting divorced, and they might be. But what they won't say is our children are internally injured and gonna have to have counseling in order to have a great relationship. They can, because there's a trust issue, and that usually doesn't come out, it doesn't come out when you're 22 years old, it comes out when you're 42 years old, and you've been married, and suddenly you you you close up emotionally to your husband or wife, and it causes and it causes a downfall in the relationship. Next thing you know, you're not sleeping together one week, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks. Next thing you
Are You The Vampire
SPEAKER_01know, it's been six months, and so because of that, she stops respecting her husband, he stops giving her attention to faction. Next thing the thing falls apart. You know, it's amazing. The average Fortune 500 company in America spends $150 million a month on consultants. Why? Because it helps their bottom line. When do people who are married get consultants when things are falling apart? And I believe, I really believe that everyone should have a coach or uh, you know, in my community, people have rabbis and rebbins that they that they that they consult with before when they're getting married so they know how to how to manage the friction, which every every relationship is gonna go through friction or turbulence. If you don't know how to manage it, if you don't know how to manage your ego, you're gonna have a hard time.
SPEAKER_00So you're suggesting having some kind of guide, whether it be a counselor, therapist, religious.
SPEAKER_01From the beginning, not not when things are hard, but the very beginning.
SPEAKER_00From the very beginning and thrown a relationship.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That's what the sunscreen loves about. Sunscreen's love is about how to build a passionate relationship. And it's based on two ideas. One is that women need to be loved and men need to be respected. And you have to know how to love your wife. And that's done through what I call the four A's: attention, affection, appreciation, and awareness.
SPEAKER_00Hence the flowers.
SPEAKER_01Hence the flowers, right? That's right, because that that shows us some of my ways. By the way, I've got to be. I'm writing a new book right now for next year. And I really believe that you know people that talk the five love languages, and one love language is giving a gift. I don't think it's a love language. I think it is compensation for lack of attention. And I mean obviously, I think it's more important is like notes, little notes or flowers. That's like I mean, that's not really a gift, it's just something you know, it's not like jewelry. When you when you're buying your wife a jewelry or a car, it's probably because you're not paying attention to them. And you need to get I don't say like my wife and I, we buy nothing for each other. 24 years, we don't buy anything for each other. Because we don't need to. If she needs something, she goes and buys it.
SPEAKER_00The I think the flowers were actually meant. There's a relative we have in the hospital. And um I think the the the flowers were actually meant for them. Um we decided to leave them in the house though for a day or two so that we could appreciate them. The worst thing you could ever do for me is if we get into an argument, is buy me flowers. It's probably the worst thing you could do. I and and this is I've had relationships where it was like that, and and I would much rather just sit and have a conversation about it than have somebody buy a gift to get themselves out of the situation.
SPEAKER_01It's it's terrible. It's a cop out. It is so so what I say with time, anytime you want to get upset with your partner or spouse, I have a rule, it's called a 24-hour rule. It's not, you know, it's not set in stone, but it means that when you are in a relationship and you want to say something to them that's gonna be critical, I'm very much against criticism. That's what sunscreen love is about, is that you have to hold off what you're gonna say and wait for a different time. So let me give you an example. I came home from I'm uh observant juice, so on Saturday mornings I go to the show and I come back around 10:30. And I usually take food out of the refrigerator and put it on this hot plate to warm up for lunch. And I came home late one morning, about an hour late, and I expected my expectations where my wife, because she was at home, would
Why We Stay In Draining Relationships
SPEAKER_01put the food on the hot plate. And my reality did not did not meet my expectations, and I walk in, there's no food on the hot plate. We're about to have lunch soon. Of course, I wanted to say something. I'm like, why'd you put the food on the hot plate? And I said to myself, Daniel, don't say anything. Because no matter how I wrap it, no matter how sweet I say it, it's gonna come across as criticism or come across as me attacking her. So, because when you think about it, what is this whole thing about? Hot chicken and rice. That was it. I'm not gonna start an argument with my wife over chicken and rice. And this is true, this is so true. Most arguments in relationships are about the stupidest little things. And so I went in, I said, Don't say a thing. I put the food in the hot plate, and about four days later, on a Wednesday night, I said to her, Hey, if I happen to come back late on Saturday morning, do you mind putting the food in the hot plate? And it didn't come across as criticism because it wasn't in the moment. And this is the way you have to think before you speak, because when you're in a relationship, it's when you're emotional, nothing good happens. If you've ever been yelled at or yelled at someone, does anything good happen from it? Nothing. In fact, when you're yelling, what are they doing? They're not listening to you. They're doing they're thinking of a response in their head. This way I still tell people date. I remember I was in my early 20s. I couldn't get a second date. I said to my best friend, how come I can't get a second date? He says, Stop talking and just listen. I said, What do you mean? He goes, listening is how relationships are formed. And it's no coincidence that the word heart, right? You want to capture someone's heart? The word heart had the word ear right in the middle of it. And people, especially men, are not such good listeners.
SPEAKER_00They might be able to do that. You probably know that too. Yeah, so so not not necessarily always listening, but always wanting to fix things too.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's our job. We have we we like to share ideas and fix things. We like you you've probably seen that video with the one with nail on her head. I have a headache, take me out, just listen to me. Listening is such an important part. And I teach the men when I come home from work or where they're coming home from that they that they need to connect with their wives because we have different needs. Like I used to come home from work and wanted to sit on the couch and watch ESPN highlights and have a beer. My wife needs to talk to me, and I have to understand her expect her needs. So I teach the men to come home and ask their wife three questions and that. To sit there and listen for at least 15 seconds. No, they have to listen to them. And when you when the wife knows that the husband comes home to talk to her, she'll she's gonna have a better emotional connection with them and she's gonna have a better physical relationship with them. When she knows her husband. Question number one what did you do today? And if you know something specific she did, like take the kid to the doctor, the CU, or um, go to the spa, whatever it is. And number two, it's funny because it doesn't seem to work the other way around if a woman works and the guy stays home. It's like a man, it's because it's different. Uh number two is what are you thinking about? What's in your mind? And number three, how do you feel? And as I said earlier, I talked about the pies in a relationship, PIE, physical, intellectual, emotional. What do you do today deals with our hands, it's physical. What you're thinking about is intellectual, and how do you feel is emotional. And you have to sit there and listen to them and engage with them without your phone. And you'll find even if most men rather not do this, it's not easy for us. Most men rather go out and mow the lawn. Some men rather have a colonoscopy. I understand it's difficult. But if you're but if your partner knows that you come out and do this at least, you know, once a week or twice a week, it's going to change the relationship dynamic. Because women need to be loved, and that's what how the love is shown is through the attention, affection, appreciation, and awareness.
SPEAKER_00And actually caring about what the answer is to those questions, not just standing there, you know, letting letting the words pass through one ear into the other. Oh, no, yeah, for sure. Actually caring and and engaging in conversation. So you mentioned that sometimes you have people in your lives, they're these emotional vampires. Yes. So we recommend setting boundaries without feeling guilty for kicking that relative out of your life.
SPEAKER_01So here's the thing. What happened was we we host a lot of people for Friday night dinners, and we had a woman that we were hosting a lot, and my wife was coaching her. She's
Dating With Intent And Red Flags
SPEAKER_01divorced, she's 40 years old, and my wife was helping her for years and years and years. And I finally said to my wife, you know, people aren't like dishwashers. You can't let's replace a heating element and expect them to work again. And she was putting in too much time, too much effort. And it was when she came to our meals, she was like taking over the conversation. It became draining. And we when she'd leave, we were like, thank God. And like we found, and we also found this with people who are sometimes uh socially awkward. They drain us of energy. And I started recognizing this in my life as you know what? There's a reason why I don't want them coming back. They drain me of energy. And I like to protect my happiness, my family's happiness. And so my wife came up with the idea of keepers. And how do you manage it? Obviously, if it's something you so we we basically stopped having them. These people that drain us of energy, we we keep away. You know, they call us, hey, you can come for you know dinner. I'm like, yeah, yeah, we're not when we're not home, you can come. Right? You know, like so we had a we had a controller of our own happiness. And if the person is a family member, which is very common, yeah. I mean, everyone has a family member that's emotionally vampiring. And the reason why they're a separate category is because if they were if your mom wasn't your mom, you might be best friends with her. Do you get my point? This came up when my daughters last year were fighting over a pair of shoes. They were 16 and 17th at a time. And my thank God they have to get along great. I said to them, if this wasn't your sister, if it's your best friend, this wouldn't be an argument. And they said, Dad, you're right. And you have to understand that those relationships with our siblings and our parents are so emotionally tight that it doesn't take much for it to blow up. So how do you deal with how do you deal with someone who's draining your energy? There's a number of different ways. When I it's called what I call ESP, emotional separation and protection. So this happens to be if you have a parent who's a narcissist or they drain you, or they talk too much. Like, listen, we all have parents that just talk too much or get too much involved in our business. And so you have to redefine the word healthy. I know in families, you know, especially like you know, Persian families or even Italian families, they have to be at each other's house every single week for a meal. And that's what they're used to. But like if your family, if your family is draining your energy, you have to redefine that word. It might mean you only see them once or twice a year, it might mean Zoom call once a week, or you know, whatever that's gonna be. And the separation and protection is what I call Reine X. Ray Nex is a um chemical you put in your windshield of your car. You know what it is? And it keeps the rain off. It's amazing. So you have to put your Ranex on when you go into the situation. If it's really, if it's really um toxic, you have to go to places where you can get out of it very quickly, which means maybe not meet at their house, meet at a public place. And you might have to time box it also. Like I'm only meeting you for half an hour, 45 minutes. But you have to control it. If you can't get we've all gone, we all had people in our life like this, and you have to control it. If you don't, you're gonna get you're gonna be emotionally wrecked. And I had issues in my life with someone close to me, a few people that are relatives, and I've had to I've had to manage it. But I have to be in control. I have to be in control of my happiness. I can't let them ruin my happiness.
SPEAKER_00And it's tough. And um I've have felt guilty because these people still want to be my friends, and they keep trying, they keep calling me, keep inviting me over to their house, and I can only come up with excuses for so long, um, for so many times. So like I'll go to maybe every fifth, every fifth meeting, um every fifth invite, but still I come home feeling drained, and I don't really want to go to this dinner, and I I don't know how to get rid of that that guilt that I have.
SPEAKER_01I I think I think the key is to understand that you have control of your life. No one else controls your life. And if you had someone who was harming you physically, you wouldn't go see them again, right? And even though it's not physical harm, it's an emotional harm, you have to learn to say no and maybe at first find excuses and eventually say, I'm sorry, I just is it this is not a good relationship for me. I mean, it hurts people, but not every relationship is good for you, and you have to be in charge of it. And then when you start to take control of your life, you will be a much happier person. If that person, you know, can't fit the four letters, kind, peaceful, empathetic, and respectful, you know, they can be annoying sometimes. That's okay. You can you can manage that. But if they're narcissists or they're overly dependent, you know, or it's too much drama for you, or they're the the common one I have is socially awkward.
SPEAKER_00I just can't, I just like You can't do that one.
SPEAKER_01I I'm like, and I and I and I and I tell people I am I am not like I tell my students, I'm not here to be liked. I'm here to make you better, to make you great in my life who have had have Asperger's. And they've admitted, they've come out, they told me they have Asperger's, they've seen the therapist, and they're delightful. Are they my favorite people? No. But they, when they know they have it, they're able to compensate for being weird. Like they know not to start their conversations with their top 10 Dungeons and Dragons games. They're not talking about at the dinner table, you know, uh all the issues with almond milk. Like they they know they're weird, but they know
Coaches, Counsel, And The Four A’s
SPEAKER_01how to they navigate conversations where they're not so weird.
SPEAKER_00But when they're completely oblivious to something. But oblivious.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, these are all the guys, and I for me it's I I see it's men, women too, but men in their 40s and 50s who are single. And, you know, I teach at singles events all the time. And a lot of men in their 50s, 40s, 50s, and 60s are just socially awkward. By the way, I wrote a class called From Swipe Right to Wedding Night, How to Make Yourself Irresistibly Marriageable. And I talk about just simple things, how to start a conversation. Hi, my name is Daniel. What's yours? Where are you from? The common thing like that, and find a common, something common in where you're from and start a conversation like that. And people have a hard time. I told them how to dress properly, just you know, you know, no dirt on your shirt, make sure your hair is done, make sure your teeth are clean, make sure your breath doesn't spell these simple things. This is the very beginning. And then I get into situations when you're at dinner mixed dinner with women and men, how not to slip your soup and make sure you know the key is here with men is to take responsibility. I asked, I teach women classes all the time. I'll say, You have a I said, what do you think of a guy at a table and the the um the host serves soup to everybody in the first course? And he stands up without being asked and goes and picks up all the soup bowls and brings them to the kitchen. And what do you think of him now? And they all say he's 20% hotter, right? Because he did something, he took responsibility, and this is I think what women like is when men take responsibility without being asked. And this is why awareness in a spouse is so important, which means when I'm in my dining room and I hear my wife drop the lid of an olive oil, do you know what I do? I go into the kitchen and I pick it up for her. I don't ask, I just do it.
SPEAKER_00And not and not just on that first date. This is No, no, no, this is my whole life.
SPEAKER_0124 years, 24 years, I'm 24 years married now. 24 years. I'm an amazing, amazing. And the love I have for my wife now does not compare to 24 years ago. Everyone walking down the aisle thinks they're in love. And guess what? They might be, and love is easy then. But the longer you're married, the longer you have to work on that love. That's called taking that infatuation, lust of desire, and turning it, romancing it into love. If you don't romance, if you don't work on a relationship, it's gonna that's what sunscreen love does. You're gonna burn.
SPEAKER_00Can someone who's an emotional vampire change? Or just can we learn to manage them?
SPEAKER_01Well, narcissists no. Narcissists are probably not gonna change. They're they don't admit they're narcissists, they can't see it. Um, I'm talking about full MPD and narcissist personality disorder. It's unlikely they're gonna change. Um, someone with narcissist tendencies, if they if they have the ability to see it, they can change. Um, personally, I I have become a much better listener, much more patient. But I don't I don't know if I was an emotional vampire. Maybe I talk too much. That was possible. I one thing about um talking too much is that you have to have the awareness when you're giving a story over or talking on a date, and the person you're talking to is bored out of their mind. And you have to be able to read clues, social clues, in order to say, you know what, maybe it's time I stop talking. Women like to talk a lot more than men. And we have to do a better job of listening.
SPEAKER_00It's a lot about awareness as well. Like if I'm aware that I have some of these traits, then I can, you know, change them a little bit. I can but it it all starts with awareness. If you're completely unaware that you have anything going on, you're not gonna change. You're not gonna be able to be something for somebody else. Yeah. And nobody can force you to do anything. You can't change other people. They need to recognize that there's a problem and they need to recognize that something needs to be that they're the only ones who can change.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I uh I I I jokingly say this. I say if you want to have a great relationship, write a book on relationships because it really clarifies what you want. If you're married or dating, whatever it is, because it you don't no one really knows. And so I think writing a book for me has really changed my it's really changed my marriage. And that was good before, but now it's off the charge because now I know how to how to deal with my wife, I know not to criticize, I know that, you know, if I have to say something, I do at a different time. I don't raise my voice, I don't yell anymore. Um I have a lot more patience, and I make sure that I show her attention, affection, appreciation and have the awareness of her needs. So I I know these things now. So like I didn't know them 24 years ago. I had a decent marriage, but it wasn't great. It was like most people, it's just okay. But once you know how to do it, once
The 24-Hour Rule And Real Listening
SPEAKER_01if you can make your wife happy, she's gonna make you happy. That's a fact of life. There's three facts of life death, taxes, and happy wife, happy life. But you have to know what makes her happy. I put a lot on the men. I put a lot on the men.
SPEAKER_00And that that takes well, it takes effort on your part to to get something to do with the city. Oh, it's hard.
SPEAKER_01No, it's hard work. It's raising kids. If you don't want to if you don't want to put in hard work, don't get married. It's hard work. But if you put in the hard work, it's such pleasure. Listen, any any pleasure in life takes pain. That's the way life works. People confuse pleasure and comfort. Lying on the beach, sipping a margarita is not pleasure, it's comfort. Playing in the Olympics is pleasure. Having a great relationship is pleasure. But those things take pain.
SPEAKER_00And when we walk down the aisle in our 20s, maybe we are a little bit unaware of what things are gonna what's gonna happen in the future. But we all go down this path. It's all about learning and growing as as time goes on. And we all have something to learn.
SPEAKER_01No, but you can learn it now in your 20s, not in your 50s. So I make sure I teach Mike when I when I ask my students, okay, who wants to be in love? Everyone's hand goes up. Okay, someone tell me what love is. You know what I hear? Nothing. And I'm asking you, like, do you do you have a definition of love? Can you define it?
SPEAKER_00Hmm. I don't know if I have a definition of it.
SPEAKER_01Here we go.
SPEAKER_00I yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so here's the problem.
SPEAKER_00I wouldn't know I wouldn't know how to define it.
SPEAKER_01Right. So here so number one, we use love for many things. I love, you know, I love my kids, I love my dog, I love teaching, and I love my wife. So the word love gets kind of abused a little bit because it means a lot for many different things. It's interesting, the the Inuit in Northern Canada have 50 words for the word snow. It's the same word, but it's different ways of saying it. Because there's different snows and there's different loves. So, what I first thing I tell my students is that the feeling of being loved is wanting to give without getting anything in return. I love you because I want to give to you. But the definition of love is different. Because if you can't define love, you're gonna confuse it with infatuation. And many people get married with infatuation, and that doesn't last. It's the emotional pleasure you feel when you focus on the virtues of another person and you continue to associate them with those virtues. I mean, there's a reason why you fell in love. What happened to your marriage? Why is it going through stress, turbulence, or divorce? You stop focusing on why you fell in love in the first place, and you started focusing on the negative characteristics. And everyone has them. Everyone has negative characteristics. That's an interesting so there's a reason why yeah, it's it's it I mean, it's a great, I don't know if it's great, but it's like I fell in love with her for a reason, and this when she does things that annoy me, which does happen to everybody, everybody, I focus that's not why I married her. I marry her for other reasons. Okay, there's things I can handle, right? And this is why I look at my the definite marriage as a merger of two souls. Because if you look at it as a partnership, you're going to lose. Once you start keeping score in a relationship, you're going to lose. So a partnership is I have an idea, you have the money, we go into business together, and we fail or we we we succeed, and I don't need you anymore. And then we get divorced because I don't need you anymore. People get married for kids, and you get married for kids. Great. You know what happens in 20 years? Emptiness divorce. Because your reason for marriage is out that is just going to left the house.
SPEAKER_00I'm still stuck on this idea that when you start focusing about the negative things and you forget about the positive reasons why you fell in love with this person, that's when things really go off the rails. And it's true. You start to hyperfocus on the negative. Of course. And those loving feelings that you once had drift away.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And if you can't clarify why you're marrying somebody, why do I love this person? If they say, you know, if you say, oh, because they make me happy, because uh they brought me out from a dark place, that's narcissism. If it's because I, you know, I love their personality, I love the way that they they laugh in my joke, then that you have to you have to if you can't clarify why you love them, maybe you shouldn't be marrying them. Right? And most people confuse infactuation of love because most people in today's world are in a physical relationship before they get married. And so what happens is the intellect goes out the window and it's all an emotional decision. And most emotional decisions don't work that well. And this is why in the in in the religious communities I come from, they don't they don't uh they don't touch, they don't have physical physical relationships before they get married because it creates and this is why they have such low divorce rates, because before they get married, they're marrying for intellect and not emotions. And then of course the emotions are gonna come once they get married.
SPEAKER_00With time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What does is does self-esteem play a role in either attracting or repelling toxic relationships?
SPEAKER_01Yes. So what self-esteem does, self-esteem is the idea that having positive esteem means you love yourself for who you are, without other people having to tell you. And a lot of people, and I hate to say this it's more in the woman, I think it's in my opinion, more in the women when they have low self-esteem. And we all go through it, every one of us.
SPEAKER_00Without needing that validation,
Boundaries With Family And ESP
SPEAKER_00yeah, validation.
SPEAKER_01And this is why a lot of women, you know, sleep with men all the time in the second, because they want validation. They I need someone to love me. And what happens is men have easy access to physicality, so they don't get married. Why should they pay for the merchandise when they get it for free? And this is why we have married people getting married later, later, and later. So if you don't love yourself, you're gonna have a hard time loving somebody else. Because a lot of women, I hate to say this, a lot of women in their early 20s, they don't love themselves and they want to just look for a guy to get married. They marry a guy, and the relationship falls apart. Because you have to love yourself, you have to have positive self-esteem before you can be in a proper relationship. And this is why I wrote the book Never Feel in Love. I did a podcast on it one time. And it did, I had a short that did 5.6 million views on TikTok. I didn't realize how big a deal it was in self-esteem. So I wrote the book, Never Feel In Loved Again. And I went through different strategies. First, to go through symptoms, things we do when we have low self-esteem. Like fishing for compliments, dangerous behavior, procrastination. Uh, we do many things. I even put in there tattoos, bull nose rings, and plastic surgery. Plastic surgery is all from low self-esteem. That's all it is. I don't I'm not happy with myself, I don't want to change myself. And it's very tempting because I even I even look in the mirror, have an elevator with me. I go, you know, if I just go like this, I have like one year, and I never did this in my 40s or 50s. Now I turn 60, I do it all the time. I'm not doing it because I'm happy to I am as a person. And and it's obviously, you know, we we try to hide our, you know, aging naturally is usually means you love yourself, who you are as a person, and that comes from strong self-esteem. And I believe uh, and the middle part of the book is based on recognizing how you affect other people's self-esteem. That when we do things, how we say things by name-dropping or the humble brag or posting on social media, we're doing it because we want attention to raise our self-esteem in the eyes of other people. Or when we go buy a fancy car, or we buy like, listen, if you could buy a $10,000 Hermaid's purse or Blue Vuitton purse, and it can solve low self-esteem, therapists would be in the business. But the reason people do that is because they want to raise their value in the they think they're raising the value in the eyes of other people, right? You can go out and buy a purse for $200, it's a nice purse, $300, $400, but $10,000, $20,000 over a purse is ridiculous. It makes no sense. It just comes from the areas of low, and we all go through, I did it myself. I I bought a Porsche in my late late 20. In fact, a lot of short Jewish guys do this. They lift a lot of weights and they go and buy a Porsche, right? They want to raise their self-esteem. They feel like that's gonna raise their self-esteem. In the end, it doesn't do anything for you.
SPEAKER_00And that puts you at risk of being in these toxic relationships. Yeah. Relationships that's not healthy for you.
SPEAKER_01Because you find people that are validating you and showing you attention. Oh, they love me. Okay, I'll go in a relationship, and then you sleep with them, then you next thing you do are comfortable. And comfortable doesn't mean good for you. Just because you're comfortable with them and they may and and it feels good, doesn't mean they should be the the parent of your child. Or it's not going to be a long term relationship. And I want to build passionate. Long-term relationships that last a lifetime.
SPEAKER_00It's more important to be in a healthy relationship, even though they might be far and few between than having more relationships with that might not be healthy. How do these dynamics play out in workplace relationships where you can't control who you're working with?
SPEAKER_01No, you can't. No. So it's different. So obviously if a boss is a narcissist, it's really tough. And you have no choice at this point in time. So you have to it's it's nuanced, obviously. Like, you know, if you're if if there's you know, I I always give the example like when a guy at your office, hey, can you help me move on Sunday? And you help me move boxes, and he's on the phone the whole time with his girlfriend. And like, you don't you're annoying this guy, right? And we all have people that are annoyed. So like sometimes it's better to be hands-off and just keep work, work, and personal, personal. It's and then this happens when you're single and you go to work, and your work becomes your uh your social circle. You go to happy hours, you become friends with them, you start dating out in the office, and that's not always good. And you know, some people you know who are married don't need that, hopefully, and and can just keep work, work, and family, family, and keep her separate. But every situation's different. So for sure.
SPEAKER_00Daniel, where can people find you?
SPEAKER_01Um, so Coach Ratner, uh, coachratner.com. And uh you if you go there, you'll have links to my books
Guilt, Control, And Protecting Happiness
SPEAKER_01and links to my podcast, the Coach Ratner Podcast on Spotify, YouTube, Apple.
SPEAKER_00And you have your new book, Emotional Vampires, is coming out. By the time this airs, I think January 19th, your book comes out.
SPEAKER_01My my book comes out January 13th for uh as a paperback and ebook, but you can pre-order before that. Um I also have Sunscreen Love, which is the four phases to find the love you want, which is real clarity on like going to dating and going to marriage and how to have an awesome marriage. Uh it talked about the needs of the woman and the man, and then never feel in loved again. Symptoms and strategies to cure low self-esteem. And it gets into like what we do when we have low self-esteem and really how to cure it and bring light into your life. So you can go into a relationship and have an awesome. There's no reason that every relationship should not be awesome.
SPEAKER_00Sounds like um great books to read and um very helpful for relationships, whether it's a romantic relationship, family relationships, friends.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00There's there's always room for improvement, even though you feel like you're already in a great relationship. So I think these are all books that we should be reading. I'd love to have a really healthy relationship. Daniel, thank you so much for joining me today. I loved this conversation. It was a lot, it was a lot of fun. It was insightful and packed with so many takeaways that we can all start using right away. And I love your down-to-earth way of explaining boundaries and how to gain healthy relationships. So I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom with us.
SPEAKER_01My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you very much, Angela.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for spending time with us today. If this episode resonated with you, feel free to share it with a friend or anyone who could use a little bit of encouragement. The more these conversations spread, the more people that we can reach together. And if you'd like to stay connected, you can follow me. I'm most active on Facebook at the Codependent Doctor and on Instagram at DRAngela Downey. I would love to hear your thoughts. So don't be shy about leaving a comment or reaching out. I wish you all a great week as you learn to foster a better relationship with the most important person in your life, yourself. I'm going to talk to you again soon with another episode of the Codependent Doctor. Take care for now. You've got this. Thanks for spending time with me today. I hope something in this episode resonated with you. If it did, hit follow, subscribe, or share it with someone who needs to hear it today. The Codependent Doctor is not medical advice and doesn't replace speaking to your healthcare provider. If you're in a crisis, please go to the nearest ER or call 911 or reach out to your local mental health help client. I'll be back here next week with more support, stories, and strategies because we're healing together.