Bart and Mitch Learn the Profound Impact of a Present Father for your child w/ Susan Schwartz PhD

We sit down with Jungian analyst Susan Schwartz to talk about what makes a father emotionally present, not just physically around. We dig into trust, pressure, phones, sports, and how our own unfinished stories can quietly land on our kids.
• emotional presence as daily curiosity, not proximity
• asking better questions about feelings, friends, dreams, and body changes
• follow-up conversations about puberty and sex that stay calm and real
• why internet access raises the stakes for related dad communication
• Jungian analysis as depth work rather than quick advice
• “present but absent” dads behind work, rules, avoidance, or depression
• how trust in a father helps a child trust themselves
• the unlived life of the parent and performance pressure on kids
• sports as a place kids try to earn love and manage adult emotions
• accepting answers we do not want to hear and making it truly safe
• repairing father-child relationships later through honest talk and therapy
You can pre-order it through Amazon or the publisher Rootledge.
I have a bunch of books on my website, which is 

Susan Schwartz, PhD is a Jungian analyst, psychologist, and author whose work explores the psychological forces that shape relationships, identity, and personal development. She has spent decades studying the unconscious dynamics that influence how individuals form connections with others—particularly within families—and how those early relationships impact emotional health throughout life.

Dr. Schwartz is a clinical member of the International Association for Analytical Psychology (IAAP) and practices in Arizona. Her work is rooted in the tradition of analytical psychology developed by Carl Jung, emphasizing the role of the unconscious, archetypal patterns, and the lifelong process of individuation. In both her clinical practice and writing, she focuses on helping people understand the deeper psychological narratives that influence their behavior, relationships, and life choices.

She is the author of several books examining complex psychological themes such as family dynamics, narcissism, and the long-term effects of childhood experiences. Her writing frequently explores the role of fathers and mothers in shaping a child’s emotional development, the challenges of modern relationships, and the ways individuals can break free from destructive patterns to build healthier lives.

In addition to her books, Dr. Schwartz writes widely on psychology and culture. Her work has appeared in numerous publications and platforms where she translates complex Jungian ideas into accessible insights for a broader audience. She is known for connecting classical psychological theory with contemporary issues affecting families, relationships, and personal wellbeing.

www.SusanSchwartzPhD.com.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Fathers Matter

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome to Dad Bods and Dumbbells. My name is Mitch.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hey, I'm Bart.

SPEAKER_05 0:04

Thanks so much for listening, liking, subscribing, and sharing. We love you guys. We're so thankful that you listen, that you share. All our premium members. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being a part of what we're growing and what we're building. Today is a special, special day. Bart, tell them about it.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Well, we have a guest, and uh her name is Susan Schwartz, and she is a young Jungian psychologist.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Analyst.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Analyst. Um, and so studied in Switzerland for three years in the Jungian Institute, like to learn the analytics of Jungian psychology. And she has many books out, including a new book coming out in May. So we have a lot to talk about. This is really going to focus on dads and their kid and kids and the dynamics and relationships, all the things that we talk about in terms of like being fathers, having kids, uh like understanding how to show up well for our family, for our kids, and that kind of stuff. So we want to go deep with you today, Susan. So thank you so much for being on the Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08

Thank you, Susan. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Well, thank you both for having me. It's my pleasure, actually.

SPEAKER_05 1:15

Great. Well, uh, we're both fathers. We both have sons, and I would love to start kind of a premise of what your uh studies have been and what you do that makes fathers better.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Yes. Well, you know, um the the whole position of fathers has really been something that unfortunately we all have lost. Too many fathers have been able to be absent, partly because they didn't know how to be emotionally uh present or even physically present. And if we talk about fathers and sons, which is the topic of my next book coming out in May, Absent Fathers, Yearning Sons, I made it specifically like that, because so many fathers that I have worked with have said that they did not have fathers who were emotionally and relatedly present. And I feel that our culture, and many cultures, not all, but our culture very much has lacked the presence of a father who really knows how to be there. And curiously enough, even if you didn't have a father, you can still learn how to do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Right? So let's let's dive into that. Like, talk about what emotional presence and and like just being there. Like there's it's one thing to be on the couch at home with your family around. It's another thing to be truly present and truly involved in your kids' life. So dig a little bit deeper in what that looks like.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Well, you know, I always, this is part of what I do. I always ask people, what do they dream? Night dreams, daydreams. What do they dream? And do they dream about their fathers? So a father could ask his son, uh, what did you dream last night? How did you feel today when you came home from school? How do you like playing soccer? Does it really fit for you? Tell me what you're really what are you upset about? Are you worried about your friends? Do you feel okay in your body? Are you worried about your physical self? All these kind of questions about one's life. You know, we could say, how many fathers sit with their sons and talk about sex?

SPEAKER_05 4:14

How many? I did last night actually.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Did you rip the play?

SPEAKER_05 4:20

Yeah, we had the whole uh because fifth grade, they go into sixth grade, and they are required by the state to have a certain like video. And so we watched the video together first, and then he was asking a bunch of questions, and I maybe I'm the exception, but I was like, let's talk about it, buddy. Let's get it going. He he was uh of course, you know, very grade level, but yeah, it was it was fun, it was good, I think.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

I think it's I think it's great. The other thing I would say is, will you follow up on the questions that maybe he doesn't even formulate yet, but that you might help him formulate? And part of sexual connection is how do you feel in your own body? How do you feel about yourself as a male? And how do you feel? Are you confused? Are you comfortable? Do you feel good about yourself? Do you feel strong? Do you feel weak? Is it okay? You know, are you okay? So I would say that is super that you did that, and that you would follow it up because I think we also have to consider that our world is formed also now with computers, and you can find out anything on the computer. So you want to be a related dad because you don't want your kids to be finding out who knows what on the computer. Absolutely. Because some of it is like okay, and some of it is really not okay.

SPEAKER_05 6:02

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, what what I think is interesting is the first time what I heard from somebody told me was once you give your kid a phone, it's not a well, what do I what does my kid have access to? It's more of a, what am I allowing people now? We're allowing the world into my kid's life, is kind of what that access gives you. Is access to the internet, access to the world is through those elements. And you know, in a lot of ways, as I as I appreciate that maybe my kids will follow my instruction, it's not always the case. And so what they have access to is very important. So tell me a little bit about the relationship between asking the right questions and then assuming certain things, but also not assuming certain things. So you kind of went two tracks there. It's like I gotta do follow-up for sure, but also they have access to everything. So how do I approach my child in my fifth grade going into sixth grade child in a real way so I can have those conversations with not just necessarily sex, but more like just everything, yeah. Everything. It's like they're changing, they're going through puberty, there's they're there's a lot of new changes. So, how do I do it so that they don't tell their kids like I told my friends, my dad made it uncomfortable, my dad made it awkward, and I thought I was too young to hear it. Now I'm in that position. So, how do I do that uh in a in a real way? What would be a good suggestion for you?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

You know, I think it always helps if we approach our children the way we wanted to be approached ourselves and the things that we missed, and we said, I promise I'm not gonna treat my children like this, and to do it differently. So I think periodic, regular connection, communication, uh, and listening to oneself of when intuitively should I speak to my son? You know, the other reason that I think that fathers are incredibly important, if you think about it, the beginning of psychoanalysis in the early 1900s with Sigmund Freud was a man who was disappointed in his father. Carl Jung also very disappointed in his father. Neither of them seemed spiritually, or I don't mean religious, but deeply connected to what they believed. And I think that not just with them, but that's been the history of psychoanalysis and psychology is nothing about fathers. They were absent. So if you read case studies on maybe until the last 20 years, there's no fathers. So when I ask people, what about your father? Introverted, quiet, read the paper, now they're reading the computer, uh, behind something. Behind, yeah, didn't come to my game. I'm gonna be so negative here, didn't come to my games, didn't pay attention, didn't look at me, didn't teach me. And that's the history that we're dealing with. And that's why I think it's so important to talk. You'll never talk too much. Bring things up, talk, all that you wished for, give to your kids. That's good.

Jungian Analysis Vs Quick Advice

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Good work. What so what is it about the the studies that you did that are different from the kind of psychology today or what we would kind of what you might get from a therapist or typical American psychologist?

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Um the difference between psychology and analysis is analysis goes deeper. So I don't really tell people what to do. I don't say you should do X, Y, or Z. It is a relationship. Together, we discuss what's going on perhaps unconsciously, through the dreams, through relationship, through difficulties, through successes, through body issues, through life issues, uh relationship again, partners. Um, and it actually wants to go deeper into what's the meaning of life. So we could say in that, obviously, both of you have got a lot of energy about the meaning of dads and fathers, and you want to promote that into the world. It's not just tell people do this, this, this. It's like expand your horizons, go deeper into yourself and really listen to what yourself is telling you about how you want to relate to your sons. How do you want to deeply? Not because somebody tells you what to do, but because you're listening intuitively to yourself inside. And I'm always interested, actually, like both of you, of I don't want just ABC, I want to know more. I want to figure out how has this developed and transgenerationally, how has this issue developed that dads could be absent and that they didn't know even how to talk to their kids. How does this happen? And then what are we gonna do about it? And how are we gonna live our individual lives? So I don't want anybody who comes to see me to get a recipe. I want them to learn how to listen to themselves and their kids and their life and their partners, because your sons are gonna learn a lot about being sons and fathers by seeing how you are also with your partners.

SPEAKER_05 12:36

So is it so in a yeah? So sorry.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

Don't go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 12:40

So with your assumption with your studies of the absent father, is your conclusion, I should say. Uh, is it the absent father that is also present? So we can be absent although we're present. Is that like I'd love to hear about that?

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Well, I send um the one of the one of the things that I was saying quite rapidly was the um the father who is there, you could say, behind his computer. So that that father is present and he's behind the computer. So how do you talk to him? Or the father is again, I'm not going to be really positive, but you know, he's preoccupied. He's thinking about work. Oh, maybe he's thinking about having an affair. He's thinking about everything other than his sons, or he's got rules. But I hear these stories. Rules, you can't talk at the table, you can't hang out, you better have your shoes on. You know, all of these say sir to father, really. I mean, but this is not unusual. And how can we be relaxed with our children and human, really human and real, and express, wouldn't it be great if fathers could say, you know, I really had a hard time in school. It was hard for me to focus. I understand that you might have some issues. Come on, let's talk about it, let's work it out together. So I think that fathers, in a way, have got a huge place to fill. And sadly, again, they got cheated. Nobody asked them enough to really be present. Be present. You know, I mean, show that you can cook, that you can play football, that you can kick, you know, you can do this, or show your show your sons how to do a variety of things in the world, and not just sit on your phone.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Well too, I think it's you can I I personally can see there's a kind of a you know, admiration towards my my son has an admiration towards me at, you know, or a respect or a you know, a bit of an awe sometimes. And there's a vulnerability to say to coming down to his level and just asking questions and saying, hey, I went through that too, and like and really breaking that down and and like finding those moments because the there isn't like a perfect time to have that conversation. It's just you gotta you gotta make the time, you gotta make the the opportunity to sit with him quietly and have that conversation and ask him about things and let him let him trust that that conversation like that can go really well and can be really enjoyable.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

You just mentioned a wonderful word, trust. So if if a son knows he can trust the presence of his father, he will also learn to trust himself. And you want to have children who know they can trust themselves because then they develop a solidity of their own personality inside, and they won't be afraid. And and I think there's another thing in what I do, and that is you have to include society and the world that we live in in the discussion of how do you cope with this world? How do you live in it? How are you going to establish yourself in the world that is kind of a shaky world at the moment? And I think that's part of an analytic not job, but an opportunity. And you have opportunities as well. Kids get very, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna they get scared, they don't know they could handle it, and your trust with them will give them the opportunity to handle the crises of life.

Pressure, Unlived Life, And Identity

SPEAKER_05 17:07

Yeah, that's good. Uh, you know, it's interesting. My daughter is going into high school and she's midway through her middle school, eighth grade year, and they already have to pick a track for what they're ultimately gonna do in high school. Like, I thought I was stressed out junior year, where they're like, what do you want to do? And they're already there already expectation is you should have an idea of what you want to do in eighth grade so you can pick a track through high school so that ultimately that's what you can pick. And what I told her was, listen, it doesn't matter what you pick now, you can always change it. I've changed careers like 15 times, different industries, so like it's gonna be okay, but the pressure that I think we're putting on kids, kids, even though they're teenagers, is as is is intense. So, do you see a correlation between the relationship between the parents and the pressure that we put on them based on performance and like those different types of things that I'm worried about with my high school kid?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Well, you know, um Jung talked a great deal about the unlived life of the parent. It's so important. So the the parents that don't live their life pass on to the next generation, the unlived life. Here's the pressure. So when you're unconscious and you haven't lived your life fully, you're going to unconsciously put the pressure to the next generation. If you're conscious, you're going to be able to live your own life fully, and your kids can live their individual life fully as well. What you had said, Mitch, I think was quite interesting, and that the ability to be flexible and change. You know, we live in a very fluid world, but it's very structured, strangely. It's like you get on this track and you'd better do that your whole life. Actually, no, you no, that's not what people all do now. You want to give your children the sense of self. This is very Jungian, sense of self so that they can listen carefully to what is going on inside, so that what they feel, they don't feel absent inside, they don't feel anxious, they don't feel worried or pressured, they know how to deal with it. That's what you want to give us fathers is the ability to deal with the crises of life that come up.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

That's good. All right, so um I just lost my train of thought. Mitch, go ahead. I got I'm gonna remember it.

SPEAKER_05 20:14

So let I love that. That is exactly what I think I'm the position I'm in right now is letting our kids live their lives individually, but also guiding them, trusting them, and in a in a way giving them guidance but allowing them free will. So in in your experience, what have you seen as common characteristics of sick I'll I'll put in quotes, successful parenting, uh just child, children that have excelled with um relationships and uh parental conversations. I guess that's probably the best way to put it for me.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

All right, so let me turn it around a bit. The studies, the studies that have been made, not in analysis, but in psychology, the studies show that those children who have a father are more solid, um, they are not as promiscuous, they are more uh goal-directed, they have an ability to be flexible, and their security level throughout their lives is stronger. So they've got a a base and a foundation. So there's the value of the father. If you don't have that, you're going to feel an absence, even so we could say, what about the single dads raising. Sons as well. I've jumped the subject, but I don't know how many of your listeners are single dads or dads in different family constellations rather than whatever traditional is, because that might be out the window as well. And how do they manage to be able to give their children a solidity of being? Because you know, if you're alone raising children, it's not so easy.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

It's not so easy. Yeah. So so you need to amass the teachers and the people down the street and the relatives and the friends. It's a different kind of way. It can happen, and one is not necessarily damaged by it at all. It's just a different way of doing things.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Yeah.

Social Media, Mental Health, Connection

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Once again, I think fathers want their sons to not feel uh an inner emptiness or a feeling of dissociation or lack of their body connection. You'd be amazed at the amount of men who also, you know, they cut, they hurt themselves, they do too many drugs. They're, I mean, your kids, Mitch, are and Bart, they're probably around the same age. They are susceptible to getting lost. And the more that the fathers watch out for and are present, they'll notice that something is wrong or something is right. It's and you get a feeling something doesn't seem right, you know. Let's talk about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:04

Is there a specific correlation do you think, towards why kids our age or even middle school to high school? Because recently we had a kid in my daughter's high school, sixth grader, uh commit suicide.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Because he's I thought you were gonna say that.

SPEAKER_05 24:24

Yeah. Uh dealing with social media and those types of things, and it's just it's just the most gut-wrenching thing. So what are the key factors I think that we are missing as parents? Because it's a good family that this happened to. I know them, you know, it's not like their parents weren't present, but what are we missing as parents? I think more than being being evident, asking the questions, being there, what are some things that you see as just key indicators that we just have to deal with?

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Um, I think if you look at your children and you look them in the eye, you're gonna know if they're okay or not. Really, you will. And if you touch them enough, you know, hug them, show them affection, you're gonna know when you touch their body, are they tense? Are they alright? You can tell by their grades, you can tell by their friends, you can tell in how they eat dinner with you. And that's another thing. How does the family get together? Do you take a walk with your kids? Do you bike ride? Do you exercise together? You know, what do you do family-wise to connect? It's the connection. And there the the other thing is how do you how do you deal with the social media? I mean, do you let them sit all the time looking at the phone? You don't want to be too strict and weird about it, but you want to also have the respect for your kids. So, hey, talk to us. Don't just sit on your phone. I mean, certain things are like regular and should be there for sure. You know, I'm always, I always am not amazed, but appreciative of people who come into my office, they put their phone, they leave the phone in the car, or they turn it off. For that time, they turn it off. Or they if the phone, if they get a something, they say, Oh, excuse me, I just I really have to take it. Okay. Okay, if you really have to. So it's like learning to really respect yourself so you don't sell yourself down the river for what? Some text that is meaningless.

SPEAKER_05 27:05

Yeah, absolutely. That is very interesting you say that because there are multiple conversations I've had this week about being present and setting the example with my own child with my phone presence. Just having it sitting, it's even sitting here. It's like having the phone away during dinner because that's kind of our safe place. It's like we're gonna have dinner together. I don't care if it's at 6 p.m. or 8 p.m. Dinner is anonymous is like essential for our family, and that's kind of been our stationary thing. But what I feel is I feel a little out of control with ultimately what they're getting from public school or what they're getting from their friends. And there, I I was a middle schooler and high school before too. I'm not gonna tell my parents everything, I'm not gonna be as open for everything. So, what is that balance? Is it really just presence? Is it really just you know essential things, or is it really like let's find some guidelines where we can we can connect and we're gonna be successful and we're gonna make this happen? This might be a good man perspective because I'm trying to find a solution, right? I'm trying to find like give me three things I need to do to be a man better, you know. So, Susan, what like in your experience, tell me what your thoughts are about that.

Sports Dreams And Hearing Hard Truths

SPEAKER_01 28:33

I can't give you three things. I can I sorry, I can't told you I can't give you three. Yeah, but but I could say that, you know, one of the things that creates absence is the father who is depressed and he doesn't talk about it. So that's absent, right? Or the father who is avoidant about relationships and he doesn't say anything about his own struggles, or the father who is mad at his partner and isn't saying to his kids, you know, we're having a hard time. We're having a hard time. We're going to therapy and we're trying to work things out, and you're okay and you're solid. See, it's like communicating what's going on. If you don't, you're an absent parent because the absence is an emotional absence, and what it does is it creates an absence in the psyche of the kid. So what the child does is the child automatically wants to save the parent from their own depression, from the parent's depression. So they will do anything to make the parent happy. Lie, cheat, do whatever, because it's important the parent is happy. If the parent is not upfront with their kids, then it creates in the kids an anxiety, and they know the parent is not being truthful. And so to really be able to say to your kids, this is what's going on with me right now. I'm okay. Um, I want you to also, we can talk about how to deal with problems. How do you deal with when you're like not happy or you're worried about your work, or you and your partner are not doing so hot? How do you deal with it? You don't hide things. You don't. So, Bart, I was wondering, did you remember what you wanted to ask?

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Yeah, and it it had to do with kind of the pressure of childhood and a lot of times, especially in Texas, but a lot of other places, sports becomes one of those pressures. And you I I really appreciated what you said about like how somebody who hasn't fully lived their life creates subconscious pressure around the kid fulfilling whatever dream they had that it wasn't resolved or fulfilled or whatever. And and then just what you said there about depression, you know, if the kid senses the parent has you know is depressed or is avoidant or whatever, they're innate wanting to please the parent, possibly by doing the sport that they think the parent wants or the activity that they think the parent will like the most, and not and losing themselves in that. And like how to how to really talk to, you know, this is this is one of those things like how to really talk to your kid to make sure they are truly doing the activities they want to do for the right reasons and not because on some level they think like that's what mom or dad wants.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Yes, and um um part, I'm gonna give a what sounds like a horrible analogy, but the child then starts to give like blood transfusions to the parent to make the parent happy, to make them healthy. I'll do whatever you want to get your love. Okay. How many people? You know a lot of dads, sports is like Max, okay? It's the big place. So, and for little girls too, but okay, we're dealing with dads and sons. But but so that the son will have to be the sport person if the father is interested in that, or he's gotta be a I don't know, whatever the father is in, the son is gonna wanna because you're his ideal, you're his role model. So if the father, oh yeah, I want you to be in sports, without asking the child, are you interested? Do you feel good at it? Are you good? I mean, some boys, they're not good at sports. Okay, forget it. Don't do sports. But could the father let that just go? Could he? Maybe the kid wants to do something else. Why not?

SPEAKER_05 33:23

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I I think that's a really good example of multiple things, and maybe that's where my like my wife has asked, where it's like, Are you do you like this? Because I coached my son for three years, right? So I played soccer, he plays soccer, and I coached him, I was on his team, and then I let him go to leagues, and he's really good. But my wife at dinner one night asked, Do you enjoy this? Are you having a good time? And I was kind of like, Whoa, you can't ask that, you know, like I was never asked that. I was it's just I just do, right? And she asked it, and he was like, Yeah, I'm I love it, it's fun. And she's like, Do you feel any pressure from us? Like those types of hard questions that you ask, it has been a key thing to our relationship with our kids. And what I what I wanna what I'm concerned about is maybe that they know the kids know what we want to hear, right? So is it just asking the questions and being okay with the responses, or how does that work in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Well, the challenge is can the father be okay with hearing what you don't want to hear from your sons? Could you accept, you know what? I like it, but it's not my biggest thing. Or I like it because I know you like it. I want you right, because basically, children need to be and want to be loved. So they'll do anything, they'll hide their feelings, they won't tell you they're unhappy, they want this, that, and saying those questions that you said, Mitch, I would say saying them and more. So you say it once? Well, what about saying it a bunch of times? More and more and more. Are you sure you like it? And would you would you say if you didn't? That's the question. Would you say if you didn't? And it's okay. And would it really be okay with you? Because you know, we can't help it. We have some dreams for our kids. What if they don't want to fulfill your dreams? And then then you have to deal with that. Okay. Uh you know, I wish you did. Could you be that honest? I wish you did, but I see you don't.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

And I think also there's an opportunity in that conversation to say what I really want for you is that you are happy and you thrive at whatever the thing is that you love most, and that you get to have an amazing life, right? And so they get to hear you not say, I want you to be a basketball player, or I want you to, you know, sing on VM Broadway or whatever, whatever the thing would be. Um but we want you to be happy, whatever that looks like, whatever that means to you. And we want you to like search out your bliss, search out your happiness, not what you think we want to see you be happy at.

Repairing Relationships And New Book

SPEAKER_01 36:51

Yeah, that's perfect. And the other part of that is how would you define happy? Because you know, when I said about Freud and Jung and their fathers, boy, they they never talked about happy with their fathers. And when you read any psychological or anything, it people don't talk about being happy with their fathers. Uh really, you just don't see it. Happy? So I I I think there's something there's another thing I wanted to add, which is that people that I've worked with not not young sons either, not young, quite a bit older, who had very difficult relationships with their fathers. And the fathers initiated, let's get together, let's go to therapy together, let's figure out what went wrong when you were a teenager all those years ago, and let's talk about it. And you know what? When they do, things change. They then can say, you know what? I didn't like that you did that. It made me feel terrible. And then the other one says, Well, this is how I felt terrible, and this is where I felt good, so that I've seen people who had like awful stories with their parents. They come together years later. Not everyone, some forget it, it doesn't happen, but it is possible that if things aren't working, they can later, as people grow up, and they can learn to talk about it and not repair, but bring together. They come together, and they can both honestly say, you know what? I don't need that food. And the other one says, Yeah, but I do. And it's okay, and it's okay. And it's okay.

SPEAKER_05 39:00

It's a great way to put it. Well, I I'm super encouraged. I think there's a few things that I pull from this bar. You could probably agree, is communication. I think number one is we need to have a great open communication with our kids and be honest and open with them about our experiences compared to their experiences, and not allow their experiences to be offensive to us. Where we become a defense mechanism where we we become defensive for their options or their choices. Ask questions, do not be afraid to ask those questions that are hard and to hear the answers. And then it sounds like three. What we've kind of talked about a little bit is parents, stop making it about yourself, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Yeah, and the other thing that I would say is talking about one's dreams, and what do you not say? What do you not say? I'm I'm curious. What are you not saying to me? And why are you not saying it? And let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 40:14

That's good. I love that. Susan, thank you so much for joining us. This I think is hold on, Mitch.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

So I want I definitely want Susan to give an opportunity to talk about the book coming up in May. Uh, give us a little more details, and then is there a like a pre-order or a link that we could put into the show notes?

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Oh. Um, you can pre-order it through Amazon or the publisher Rootledge. You can pre-order. The title is Absent Fathers, Yearning Sons. Uh, it's an exploration or study of the father-son dynamic. Comes out in May of this year. And I have a bunch of books on my website, which is Susan Schwartz PhD.com. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Excellent. Yeah, and honestly, I I think this conversation, I mean, there's I think later on too, like this at this evening, I'll probably be like, oh, why didn't I ask that? But I have I I love this because I feel like I have homework to do right now. Like, yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait for my son to come home and I can you know engage him a little bit differently and see if I can start to elicit better conversation. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Well, thank you. Thank you both. Um, well, thanks to all of us. Actually, it was an interesting conversation. So I'm appreciating it.

SPEAKER_05 41:45

Thank you for taking the time. We're appreciative of you. And and check out her book. Uh, you'll see it in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening to Dab Bods and Dumbbells. Thanks for listening, like, and subscribing. Thank you, Susan. Love you all. Have a great day. Thank you.