(4) Facade Systems, Climate Performance, and Important Decisions: Insights from Blair Davies, P.Eng.

In this episode, Blair, a seasoned civil engineer, shares his journey from tech to the construction industry, focusing on the significance of building facades. The discussion covers the importance of facades, the evolution of building codes, challenges in the construction process, and the role of sustainability and waste management.

 Blair also delves into the trends in mid-rise building projects, offering valuable advice for developers on optimizing facade systems for better performance and aesthetics. Join us for an in-depth conversation on how facades contribute to the functionality, branding, and longevity of modern buildings.

• Why are Facades important?
• Defining Facade Terms
• Important Decisions for Real Estate Developers
• Exploring Facade Options
• Building Codes and Performance
• Choosing the Right Facade for Toronto's Climate
• The Importance of Flexibility in Wall Solutions
• Thermal Bridges and Slab Exposure Issues
• Challenges with High-Rise Glass Buildings in Toronto
• Balconies and Thermal Bridging Concerns
• Trends and Opportunities in Mid-Rise Construction
• The Role of Prefabrication in Modern Construction
• Sustainability and Environmental Impact
• Resources for Learning More About Facades

For more information, please refer to RealEstateDevelopmentInsights.com

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Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Payam: Hi, Blair. How are you doing?

Blair: I am. How are you? 

 thank you for being here with us, Blair. and I have had multiple discussions offline about topics of interest, the whole facade build facade of the buildings, the mid rise buildings. We've done a couple webinars together. And let's start why why facades? Why are facades important and how did you get into the world of facades? I know you have a background in tech, you're an engineer, and why, of all things, why facades?

Blair: Okay. So, yeah, the background is I am civil engineer from Waterloo and I thought I was going to build stuff and, you know, life is that thing that happens while you're planning doing something else. So I headed off into tech at the beginning of the computer industry. And then I was in the beginning of the of the Internet.

and, you know, a lot of that was great and fun and I was traveling and it's very exciting. but I kind of had this like, I don't know, light bulb or something about [00:01:00] why I went to Waterloo and why I went to school. And it was to build stuff. So, in about 05, I, I, well, it left me because mostly, The bubble burst and most of the hardware attack moved overseas, and I took it as an opportunity, frankly, to build a network of friendships and relationships and.

Get involved in the building industry. and there's a lot of, there's a whole lot of reasons for it. And I honestly kind of stumbled into this facade space, just from networking and people I met and it's, it's turned out to be a nice mix of, You know, looking at something while I walk away, you know, while I drive down the street, which is what I really got into the space for doing, sitting in relatively, sometimes relatively artistic meetings and helping somebody get what they're trying to achieve.

and, and they know that they need that help. That's what's kind of interesting about the space. a joke I [00:02:00] have is that I've never been thanked so many times since I entered this industry. you know, in 20 years of tech, I can count the number of times somebody said, thank you, you know, not on one hand, but, and then I joined the industry and, you know, people call it, you know, the hard, hard world go, go, go.

Well, reality is, there's a lot of challenges on building a building and the people that are designing and building a building, they need help. and then, this facade thing is interesting because. Back when I got into it, I joke about how it was like selling shiny things to architects because building it was building.

It was easy couple inches of insulation. Nobody was worried about thermal bridging. The code wasn't all that constraining and, and, you know, kind of what's your dollar per square foot and.

What's changed is we've opened up to the bad decisions that were being made in the past.

So, I have a building science book that I came from when I went to [00:03:00] university in the 80s. And, you know, it talks thermal bridging, and R value, and effect of R value, and all the things you think of. And, so as this grew, and I, I reread some of the building code this morning to make sure I kind of had it all, you know, it's, it's like 20, 2016, like, we're finally writing documents in the building code about these topics in 2016 around building envelope.

And now what's happened, and it's even taken longer to get in place, is you, you take the shiny things, and now you incorporate them in a system, which then makes you look at other aspects of it, you know, labor, labor efficiency, waste, sustainability, carbon, and all these other things, and, you know, I like to say that it separates the wheat from the chaff, Now, folks in my line of work, there aren't that many of us and,

and,

and I tend to [00:04:00] work really well with, you know, an architect, obviously the owner too, but the architect, a building science engineer and myself, because, architect has a vision of the building he or she wants to make the building science expert really understands the science around building envelope, and I can bring solutions that none of those 2 can, can see, because, you know, I have a bit of a, more of a global network.

So the facade space is like this next is this cross point between the brand of the building, how it's going to look, how people are going to feel about living in it.

 and then the engineering that actually is going to make it work. Not only the day you build it, but the day, the day and the day and the day after that, decades after that.

And, and if you think. Like, the problems that we have with the building stock today, fundamentally, they're building envelope things. 

Payam: So

Blair: I mean,

Payam: you dig much deeper into that, why don't we just take a step back? I want to

Blair: [00:05:00] sure. So

Payam: you comment that you made in terms of you get a lot of thank yous, but, and maybe we'll just, I'll just put a pin on that old circle back. But, let's take a step back because obviously we let's define some terms before we move forward. let's how would you define like facade versus cladding versus the face of the building where wall assembly and I guess less of a technical definition if you may more of what if I'm looking at a building which part am I looking for the facade and what is the other one let's start from there and we go forward

Blair: the facade of a building is the vertical walls of the entire building. And when you go to a facade website or a magazine, You're going to see the solid wall part and the glass wall part and so windows and window wall and curtain wall and then the solid wall. Now, I'm more involved with the [00:06:00] 2nd part. So, although I call my company facade systems, I actually have no role in glass, but hold that thought.

and so when you're looking at the facade, you're typically talking about some kind of skin, which would be what you call in Canada, we would call cladding. and then you're going to have some kind of build out to provide thermal and water and vapor barrier, protection and then structure and some kind of interior surface, like drywall or something.

So, now that's a description of what, you know, would commonly be called as a stick built world, you know, whole bunch of components show up on a website and a bunch of people get up on equipment and 

 now there's so that's so cladding subsystem attached to some structure. It would be everything outside of the sheeting, if you will, would be called the [00:07:00] facade.

And and what

Payam: we see, sorry if I made to summarize it, everything we see from the outside and everything that is basically your first line of defense against the elements. Would that be a fair definition?

Blair: correct yeah, the whole the word building envelope, or in America, they call it building enclosure is to keep the people on the inside comfortable while the weather's changing outside.

Payam: Gotcha. Okay. So I want to circle back before we get any for why all the thank yous. What have you been doing? I know why I have thanked you in the past, but while I was introduced to you as okay, guys, we're dealing with one of the projects a few years ago, and I know we came across this situation with one of these, Facade systems, back then I used to call them cladding more often than facade, but since then, facade systems and you were introduced to me as the, the facade expert, right? So why the thank yous?

Blair: well, don't think I'm that hard to. Work with,I guess, so [00:08:00] some level, it's that approach,which I learned when I was in tech to some extent, but when I got to this, especially with architects, they got to deal with. Like the, you know, the ocean is incredibly broad and it's only, it's a, it's a couple of meters deep, right?

They got to, and, and they're, they're, accountable for everything, but not responsible for anything. So, you know, if, if the concrete gets poured wrong. They drew it, but and so somebody is going to get upset with them if there was a detail wrong. So then they're looking for experts and in the building envelope being tough.

They really are looking for experts. And,so I like to say that I'm. You know, a mile deep and, you know, a kilometer deep and a couple of meters wide.

I don't know much about roofing, for example.

Blair: but by the way, I know people that know things about roofing. So you do need to know that you do [00:09:00] need to know your network.

You do need to know people, but the thank yous just come from, I think the chat, the interesting thing about this business. It's a real people business and,

and it's a very service oriented business. So when you look at a building and you see all the components and all those systems and all this tangible stuff, it was touched by a lot of people.

Payam: Very true. Very true. And and to that point, like I started engineering as well. But I would say being a construction manager on my day to day job is like probably 90 percent of it has to do with dealing with people, negotiations and long term relationship building and trusting and holding each other accountable. All the fun stuff that comes with it, obviously, less, maybe 10 20 percent Max is technical, which is That's mostly what you learn in the university. Okay, so let's let's go back to the question I asked you earlier, and maybe I'll expand on it a little bit. I'm a [00:10:00] developer. I'm someone who's starting a new project, or I have a project somewhere in the process of approvals and design development. first of all, why, why should I care more Or why should I care? Aside from just the looks of the building, why should I care about my facade? what are the, let's say, 3 to 5 things that I need to pay attention to when my designers, my architects, my engineers, my construction manager, my team basically is working on a project.

What is it? What should I, what questions should I go to the team with?

Blair: One thing that I guess I'd start off with is you can get all the engineering right and don't have to care about what it looks like. So you can spec. Air vapor barriers and insulation that hopefully meets code and windows that meet code and that the details around the windows are so there's no thermal bridging and et [00:11:00] cetera, et cetera.

The parapets are done, right? The doors are gone, right? And you can get all that right done. And you can do all that with the types of. Claddings or facades you see today. and you could rely on people like me or met in all the cladding contractors. If they're willing to spend time up front with you, they, they, they know this stuff.

So, to some extent, there's like, no mystery, although people cut corners and. And and then they compromise, right? They, you know, there's thermal bridges around the windows and they didn't have to like, I'll get to that in a moment. So, but if you tie it back. to what, the purposes of that aesthetic as well as massing and layout and which way the building faces.

And what's going on on the street and what's going to happen, maybe at the retail level on a lot of, you know, a lot of residential design hours [00:12:00] are mixed use. the facade is a really key component of that. And, and there's, I think the thing that gets missed. Is there's a lot of choice, and there's a lot of choice that's going to fit your budget.

And, and, as dear Canadians. We just seem to rely on stuff we either know or somebody knew and we've been using, but kind of don't do that process up front to go, my brand of my building is this,

and therefore the, the range of things that I could use to meet that brand. Are is that

and then and then how do I work up my analysis of what's the best decision.

So, if you are branding a car, then you would look at the shape of it. You would look at the exterior finishes the shapes of the glass. I'm not a car designer, but, you know, the, you know, all the [00:13:00] aesthetics and then you'd be making decision that you made good decisions cost wise efficiency wise, aerodynamically.

And your brands. So that's the piece that really can be achieved differently if people actually know all the choices they have. and, 

Payam: to recap, you're saying that I guess the first question is go to the team and don't settle for the first option that everyone thinks is the way to go and ask for, okay, what are my options? And maybe if you don't mind, just quickly walking us through what those some of those options are in terms of, let's say, the some of the more uncommon ones or some of the ones that you're feeling are underappreciated.

Blair: well, that's another three hour meeting. See, that's, what's really interesting. Because if you go to the, for example, there's a trade show in Germany called BAU every other year, and, it's in, it's in about a dozen buildings, and each building has, you know, windows or doors or, you know, and there's [00:14:00] two for facades, and, and,

Payam: so let me reframe that

Blair: yeah, yeah, so,

Payam: in in

Blair: so an example, example, so right now you'd see brick, window wall, maybe glass windows, but window wall usually, the, Block, which is what I saw in a building.

I'll tell you a story in a minute. A. C. M. maybe some metal panel and E. S. so 7 things so, and if I'm wrong, then add 2 more. Right? So we're under 10. there's people know flat. Fiber cement, like the one that starts with the letter H, but there are system based fiber cements that are a lot easier to put on, and therefore your cost goes down, even though the materials a little more there's F.

Payam: R. P. Fiber reinforced polymer products, depending on where you want to use it. There's things like terracotta and there's brick systems that provide rain screen. If you're going to do a tall building, you could still [00:15:00] have brick on a building and not affect the loads on that building. there's there's really cool things you can do in the aluminum space, like perforations and really interesting things in aluminum plate. That aren't that much more or aren't that more and if you tied them into your brand then they fit, right? you're suggesting that if you're if you're a developer, one of the things maybe you're suggesting is think about the building Envelope and the facade in particular as something that would carry over between your projects and build you the brand And that doesn't

Blair: yes,

Payam: be a window wall or a curtain wall.

Blair: right. And, and there's,there's a piece that I've been really watching lately. That's been getting lost. So if I told you flat sheet of fiber cement, the low cost material that you can buy at Home Depot and mine was. Almost 2X. The actual, just the, [00:16:00] just the skin.

Payam: Mm hmm.

Blair: So, 6 versus 12 bucks. Okay. And then, but the subsystem's the same, because you still need 4 inches of insulation, and you still need something to hang it on, so that, that piece is the same.

Right. And you still need the same, you know, rock wool or sorry, but, you know, mineral wool insulation, you still need the same membranes for air vapor barrier. and,and you need labor. And if your labor allows you to avoid overruns or avoid mistakes or avoid. Redo's. You know, that 15 a square foot you're getting for labor or 15 or 20 or something completely changes if you know it's going to be a certain dollar point, but here's the, here's the kicker that people keep ignoring and I'm, I kind of put my foot down on this and that's waste.

And way too many times am I shown a building what's [00:17:00] interesting in residential is the walls are broken up. Now there are some nice long runs at some points in the building like around staircases and things, but compared to the art gallery of Ontario, you know, which is, there's an addition going on and it's fundamentally going to be a closed building because they don't tend to put windows around art.

residential has a lot of different surfaces and, and if you, if you can do it in such a way that your waste factors low, like less than 10%, then your dollar per square foot of a 16 of a, of a 6 panel versus a 12. You know, six can become 11 real fast if you're throwing a bunch in the garbage.

Payam: And sorry, when you talk about waste, you're not just talking about material. You're talking about material and labor.

Blair: Yeah. Cause every time you cut, well, that's exactly, well, that's a really good point. So every time you touch something [00:18:00] and you have to fabricate it or adjust it, that's waste.

And every time you buy something that's a four by eight, But the, but the size you're trying to fill in is 4 by 6.

Payam: You just cut off 2 feet, throw it in the bin. And by the way, the labor is not watching that. Right. And

Blair: they didn't, they didn't, they didn't buy it. so, So waste is a really interesting one. And then that ties into the whole conversation of sustainability and carbon and Paris Accord and all the things like waste is, is, is front and center.

Payam: Gotcha. So, so I

Blair: to just to recap then. So the first thing I'm going to team I'm saying, okay, provide me with a list of the options that I have for this building. You named seven or eight. Let's say there are a couple other, let's say there are 10 options out there. The second thing is, okay, what do I want my buildings to look like?

Payam: And what do I want my buildings to be branded with? [00:19:00] Right. And I guess what I'm hearing from you right now is that, okay, how can I write, Pick the right cladding system. Pick the right facade system that minimizes essentially a lot of waste and possibly brings me savings, if you may, in terms of less waste and less time on site when I'm building the building.

Did I get that right?

Blair: yeah, and so something has to start first, though. So I've got a project right now that it was brought, it's been brought to me at rendering stage. And, and to some extent, the bill, the business plan was built around the rendering, right? Because that helped them decide how many units they're going to be selling and things like that.

So, you know, bringing an expert like myself in when they don't even know how many units they want to use on such and such a property. That's too early, but bringing a rendering and and then. Showing me, [00:20:00] like, showing me, like architects do a great job of this, showing me what they're trying to achieve potentially.

And getting somebody like myself in early enough that, you know, they're showing me what they want to achieve potentially, and they're trying to associate to certain colors and finishes and the neighborhood and, and all those other types of things that they're good at. now it's time to maybe, hey, if you did it this way, could you compromise and therefore have less waste?

Or, you know, or, you know, if you want that aesthetic and that dimension and that layout, you know. Here. You know, I, I, I, there are 10 choices, but here are the three or two that you should think about even before you kind of go figure out the price. 'cause as I was saying earlier, a lot of the, like, I get calls all the time, like, oh, the, how much is your panel?

And it's kind of like a, why are you starting there?

Payam: That's the wrong question. [00:21:00] I've heard you say

Blair: Yeah, yeah,

Payam: many times. Yeah, and that's

Blair: yeah,

Payam: yeah, I'm beginning to learn that as well. That's

Blair: yeah. Which is fun. Which is fun for me because you get to change and you get to differentiate yourself. So. and, you know, if there was a standard way of going through this process, they probably wouldn't need me. but there isn't, and it's different people's levels of understanding and different people's point of view of what they're trying to achieve and, and, there are a lot of choices and there's more and more choices every day because there's a lot of innovation.

in the facade space, everybody knows, you know, it's kind of a joke, like, there's a whole lot more wall than there is roof, except for the home, except for the Home Depot store. 

Payam: So, so if I want to go back, so, basically I, I now know when I need to bring Blair in or someone like Blair with the expertise to help, select the right system. then basically the, like the other [00:22:00] criteria was a range. What my branding was wants to look like but now how do I make a decision like walk me through if you may that decision making Criteria from from your perspective How should I be looking at a facade system?

Like obviously there's performance like you mentioned waste and cost and I I can add add my two cents to that in terms of Being a construction manager that I want less people to touch the system That's my point of view. I don't want too many people to go back and have to repeat and repeat these systems together. So I totally agree with that. What else can be what else should be looking at? Should I be looking at?

Blair: well, nowadays, you're going to have to start at the building code. So you may, like, we've been talking about finishes and services and things you might see, but you need to understand the building code of what you're actually going to be building. And I guess you're going to like, this is where I get a little philosophical, but you [00:23:00] can sit in a room.

You can get, you can, I've not sit in these rooms, but you can sit in a room and say, I, I just barely want to get over the Ontario building code. So,

Payam: Right.

Blair: and like, I, I was, I was in Kingston this weekend at my son's. He's just moved into a place to go to grad school and, he's in one of these, these 10 story buildings, block and window wall and I was bored.

So I sat and looked at his building envelope and I, I added up exactly. And I added up the wall depth and then I also figured out there was a, there was a thermal bridge between the window and the inside and a handful of other things. And,and it's pretty clear to me that the owner had a meeting and said, well, I'm building codes here.

I want to be just about here,

Payam: [00:24:00] Just,

Blair: and

Payam: meet the code.

Blair: they have the legal right to do that. Absolutely. However, the code's changing. Now it's changing very regularly, and things like the Toronto Green Standard are catching on fast, and they're being copied in other districts of Ontario and other places. so the idea that you build a building today, and then down the street, they got the next person has to build a building.

That's better. What happened? What happened to the marketability of marketability of the building? You didn't build better and I don't by the way, these green standard practices. They're not mysteries, like they've come out and said, here's where we are going. And, and so, so if you build today, you have a very knowledgeable choice about how to build where it's going to be, you know, Wayne Gretzky, go where the puck's going to be.

And, and, but you, you still can make a decision on where the code is today. Now, I did some [00:25:00] backwards math this morning based on what I saw, and I went back and read SB 10 and, added it all up. And I think there's a slight chance they're at building code and, and,

Payam: the building

Blair: the, yeah,

Payam: The one that

Blair: yeah, yeah. And, and, It doesn't reflect how this building is going to perform.

Kingston is a windy place and, and it was really cold on the weekend when it actually was only about minus three. And, and, so the building code doesn't actually, it's a proxy for how we should build, but it's not right. And then you couldn't really ever come up with a, a building like people would, it would, you know, It would take forever to come up with a building code that covered every scenario, right?

Payam: Yeah, that

Blair: Yeah, but,

Payam: makes

but like, but when you watch the weather report tomorrow morning, what are you going to be looking for? The windchill? So, you know, that building has a windchill, like, you wouldn't believe it. [00:26:00] Right. So, so I

Blair: you're saying is look at what your options are. Obviously you have to build in code. You want to meet that for sure. You have to meet that. But I guess I'm hearing the performance is the next criteria on your list. Like what performance are we getting? I'm curious to know of all the systems that you're, you're, you're,reviewing your work with your studied.

Payam: Obviously, we just established that you are building facade nerd. If you may, you just did the math sitting there. which ones would you say are the better fits for our climate in Toronto and in Ontario in terms of, performance and basically the energy cost and energy efficiency of the building, I guess, over the over its long term, over its life cycle, if you may.

Blair: The outer skin doesn't really matter. And what I've just said, a ventilated facade with pretty well any of the,well, manufactured skins is fine. Now, that's a budget and a branding question like we had earlier. But when you're looking at how you're going to build the wall, [00:27:00] whether it's stick built, and I just want to come back to the glass for a minute, there's work going on in the curtain wall space where the types of materials I'm talking about are being integrated in curtain wall.

There are prefab walls. and there's modular and all those, you know, probably is 3 is 3 more webinars are to cover all that. But,I think what you're going to answer your question in 1 simple word, it's flexibility. So, if you're choosing a wall solution, so the whole thermally broken insulated air vapor solution, and it only does 1 thing, like, it only goes to 4 inches.

It has no adjustability. It does. It's kind of hard to deal with the window detailing. you caused yourself some pain. You didn't have to cause

an example of these buildings and their performance. Just 1 simple thing. Is slab exposure. So the thermal bridge that goes through a slab is is [00:28:00] insane. So if you've created a system like window wall that goes slab to slab, and then when you go on the websites of this window wall, guys, they have a.

They have a thing they call bypass. I think is the word they use. And, and it's, it's fundamentally an aesthetic. So it looks like curtain wall, but it's not right. So that, yeah, you know what I would say, you build these things, but the, but the bypass. So you go from, you know, you go for a window wall.

That's like that. That might, you know, have, you know, reasonable you value, depending on how it's made. But then the slab comes out like this and all of a sudden you've got, you know, 1 inch of insulation for that bypass and, and what thermal bridges are going on from side to side and whether it's been put on right, all that kind of stuff.

That's so that's not a flexible system. And if you want to go, if you want to start talking about higher performance, oh, [00:29:00] by the way, the higher performance may not cost more because if you want to go from, say, 4 inches to 6 inches of installation, the cost of the installation and the subsystem is not that much like it's.

Like, yeah,

Payam: the bigger picture of things, what you're saying is that if you were to select a building that has significantly more glass compared to more wall, the, the, the one with the glass is probably going to have a lesser performance if I'm hearing you right.

Blair: well, that and you're not going to be able to so a big part of these codes is driving down the window to wall ratio. They're not saying, hey, if you have 100 percent glass, you better have it perform like that. They're not doing that.

They're saying your window to wall ratio is going down. So Jerry's gone gone home. The verdict is on the table. So, 

Payam: I might have this question come up that. Okay. Okay. Right now in Toronto, we see all these, [00:30:00] not, I wouldn't say mid rise, but all these high rise buildings having basically all of these glass cubes going up, up to like how many God knows how many stories right now. how do you feel about them? I guess.

obviously I don't like it. we're going to pay the price. This isn't Miami. Right. I don't know how they got it. now, if you, there was a, there was a point in time where the code was changing. I think it was the year or so last and I couldn't reach an architect for about 6 weeks because they were jamming and all their approval requests because the approval request to the city had to be, you know, mail stamped May the 31st.

Blair: So they just, just whatever they put in their documents. You know, it didn't matter if the city had more questions later, they just get it stamped and get it in and we'll deal with it and it was all to keep it was all to keep the requirements on the building envelope status quo. [00:31:00] So, I don't know how it's happening, but I don't it's not good.

And we're going to pay the price. And the 2nd piece is, I have met curtain wall renovators. Who know they're going to retire based on improving replacing gaskets coming in the next 20 years, like, so somebody is paying for that. and then the 3rd thing I see when I look up when I look up when I walk downtown is balconies and, the thermal bridging that comes off of balconies is insane.

And, I mean, I know people who live in some of those high rises and. They tell me that in the winter time, they can't walk over that part of their floor. And if you have that kind of, cold floor, you're going to be having condensation. so you do have to ask yourself why we created these buildings with balconies all the way around them.

Payam: Yeah,

Blair: I, I love it when you go,

Payam: to construction as well.

Blair: yeah, and I love it when you go by those buildings and you look up and [00:32:00] there's bicycles and no human beings.

Payam: to live in one end, on the top, on top floor, and, you're right, like there were probably a few number of weeks in the year that those balconies were actually used because of all the

Blair: Yeah,

Payam: on the, on the cool weather. Okay, so. Let me just go recap from the beginning. So I want to ask about the range. I want to talk about the branding. I want to know about the performance. I want to know about the code. I want to know about the branding. And then so, okay, I've selected the system. I want to go forward. What and you point, you made a point here that there's a building that's going to go up. Down the block from my building there two years from now, five years from now, and I want to make sure that by the time that building is built, I'm still in the market.

I'm compatible competitive. Sorry. And, I can do so. That brings me to the next question is what are the actual trends? We talked about the D. A. D. Code a little bit. But what is it that you're actually seeing in the market? And I know from previous discussions, you and I that [00:33:00] you're trying to focus on the midrise section a little bit more because that might actually be more flexible.

So maybe walk us through the opportunities that you're seeing and trends that you're seeing happening right now. Mm

Blair: well, I'm, I'm focused on, focus, I grow a business, so I'm focused on where I have things or where I can find things that people want, right? so the mid rise space, so, like, maybe less than 12 stories, I look out West, and I see smaller balconies, not hung out, you know, they're part of the building, panels, so cladding systems that are lighter and maybe prettier and easy to put on.

And then maybe brick around the bottom, because there's still an aesthetic people like about brick. but that's just on the 1st floor really interesting massing, attractive places for the neighborhood. and I'm thinking that belongs here. and so I'm just I'm going, you know, it works over there.

Payam: Why wouldn't it work here? true. [00:34:00] That's true.

Blair: so,

Payam: made mentioned a couple of important points there. And I think it's worth talking about a little bit. One is the neighborhoods because and I have had discussions about this before where you obviously when you're building a mid rise building, you're building in an area that you're not in the middle of nowhere, you're building somewhere that other people have lived for a long time, you have other buildings that you're Give the community the fabric, it has, it has its own identity.

So I guess that's one of the places that you want to think about facade, which is like, basically your building should not, should mesh in, in other words, right? You want to make sure that does.

Blair: yeah, I'm, I'm not a designer, so I'm not, I'm not necessarily comfortable with the word mesh in, because if it actually enlightens the neighborhood, then this is a good thing. Right? been reading a lot. I also do work in schools. And I've been reading a lot about the benefit of color and aesthetics and finish and of course daylighting and other things.

Payam: [00:35:00] For the educational process, so, I could see, because if you were saying meshes in, I'm sorry to pick on your words, then every building would have red Ontario brick. I hear you. So we built this building a few years back that we were basically, we did,we have to keep a heritage facade of a church. And build a four story condo behind it. And, at a time, the, the heritage architect and the art, the design architect that we were working with, they had a good point.

They were saying, listen, this, this building was brick to begin with. whatever we do, we want to somewhat have relationship with the old wall. But also be a little bit different. So in that particular case, we ended up doing, basically a different type of brick and architecture block to look to live a different, but it still not out like a sore thumb when you

Blair: right. Yeah.

Payam: I guess that's what I'm trying to get at. Like,

Blair: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Payam: my, [00:36:00] my basically, bias against mid rise buildings, because I wouldn't, I wouldn't personally like to see a big, yeah, Class box in the middle of a, good old neighborhood, right? That's not what I advocate for,

Blair: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I saw the same thing in Europe, when I was over for that show, or when I went to visit some of my suppliers, I mean, you have a 500. Year old building. And you're building next to it, or you're actually adding to it one was a hospital. they use terracotta panels to somewhat relate to it.

But it was a very modern building next to a very old building, and it came off perfectly. And that's why I'm saying designers have a very important role and meeting inspirational requirements like,

Payam: one of the things I'm seeing on the construction side and it's it's it's actually pretty good. Like, I'm very happy to see it is pre fabrication, offsite fabrication and manufacturing, which honestly, it really helps us [00:37:00] during construction process. It helps us with coordination, human error, to your previous point, reducing waste.

Like, what are the trends that you're seeing there with the facade systems?

Blair: So, I'd say what you say about that is it's coming. Uh,

Payam: there yet.

Blair: no, no. There are some. Like, it is a little hard with mid rise or even any, like, residential is because of all the, penetrations. It can be a little hard. on the other hand, that what helps it is repetitive on this. So if you can ship a bunch of walls that are somewhat the same, because that's how that's how you drive down cost.

And in a prefab building is you. Is you, did you have repetitiveness? Repetitive this,but there is so that is happening, but I can't count on, like, less than 5 factories in Eastern Canada doing that. 

Payam: But you

Blair: now that they are not, and they are, it is [00:38:00] happening in bigger buildings, and it has been happening for quite some time.

So there are some companies out of the States that do, you know, 3 story high by 1 by 10, 15 feet wide panels and they put it up and they have cool facades. And I saw that on some university buildings. There's a couple of 3 companies here in Ontario that are going after, You know, that kind of space and I, I think what you'll see is a bit of a trickle down to,to, you know, the, the residential building world.

there's a RFP.

Payam: hope. There's still hope. It might not

Blair: Oh, no, no. Yeah, but demand kind of has to lead supply to some extent. I mean, it goes like this, right? But,but if I have to convince people, I don't convince people that's not what I do for a living. But if, if the industry is looking at the Ontario building code and only doing that, then, then how are they going to spawn interest in?

You know, some new way of [00:39:00] building it. now, now, modulars.

Payam: that I was sorry, but I, although I agree with you that there are the good chunk of the market obviously is very cost sensitive when it comes to real estate development and they're not necessarily going to go above and beyond what they have to, but there are entities out there that I'm fortunate to be working with a few of them that actually do have objectives that are higher and it's actually admiring and it's, it's very important, I think, to To what you're saying is that, yeah, well, like look at where we are compared to what we built 50 years ago in terms of the quality of the building envelope to build the quality of the construction itself. And, I actually do believe that we were turning over better product at the end of the day these days. And, yeah, we don't want to be looking at hindsight and say, you know what, we could have done 10 percent better and it would have made a huge difference. Right. So.

Blair: Yeah, I agree with all that. Now, we don't have time for it, but modular is. Is probably coming faster for mid rise construction or for residential construction in general. and there [00:40:00] are some good companies in Ontario that are, you know, moving along with it. nowhere near the progress that is going on in the States.

but that area.

Payam: your point. There's there's there's opportunity for growth, right?

Blair: Yes. Yeah.

Payam: in the market on the mid rise and these new changes that have been happening recently to the guidelines and zoning, it will I'm pretty sure, like, I'm certain that we're going to see more mid rise buildings come in line online and those those will be the main drivers. Honestly, like I don't think we're going to see massive changes in terms of how the high rise buildings, the 40 stories and the 80 stories are being built. I don't foresee that in the near future. And please disagree with you if you think differently. I think, the facades for mid rise buildings and like something between 4 to 10, maybe 12 stories, that's where the main playground will be.

Blair: We'll have another meeting about high rise. But you asked me about prefab walls, and I actually think [00:41:00] volumetric modular would move into the construction process for 12 foot 12 story or less buildings faster than prefab walls. because it is an easier construction process. It is repeatable. You can, every suite can be the same size.

And then if you want 2 suites, you just take the wall down and have 2 suites. so there's a lot of opportunity to do.

Payam: We should have another chat on the whole modular system because

Blair: Yeah,

Payam: been to a

Blair: it's that

Payam: I, I don't know. maybe that's actually a good question to look into what, why is it that they're not growing as Growing much faster.

I guess maybe that's one of my questions because I remember just before covid I visited one of these plans that they were doing modular and spread pretty impressive did robotics the systems that they have and it's it's it's the closest thing in the construction industry. I've seen that goes close to the car manufacturing system, which is, [00:42:00] I guess, one of the good benchmarks to want to follow.

Right? okay, so I guess I'm just going to do a recap and then, I'm going to ask you a few closing questions, if you may. So, if I'm a new developer, or I'm a developer who is starting a new project, I want to ask for the range. I want to think about my branding. I want to think about the, the product that I'm selecting as in compliance with the code. at the end of the day, I want to pick something that I don't regret. Five years, 10 years from now that, okay, I could have done 10 percent better and this building would have been different. Did I miss anything or is that it?

Blair: I didn't say it. So it's my fault, but. Sustainability, carbon impact, environmental impact. I did mention waste. and when I have meetings with architects and engineers on other types of buildings, we really delve into carbon a lot. Like, I get, I get asked to provide, you know, environmental product [00:43:00] decorations.

Over and over and over again to the point. That's great. I'm very excited by it. my, my sort of normal comment is you can't have protests in Glasgow, you know, cop, whatever it was. And then, and then just sort of go to work the next day, like, it

Payam: right,

Blair: just doesn't make any sense, let alone if you feel like we all should figure out a way to impact it.

Right? so that should be a key aspect, because if you're going to contribute to neighborhoods, and you should be thinking about that.

Payam: So, in terms of like resources, websites, magazines, books, or anything that you could, Recommend or suggest that our audience would if they want to learn more about facades. Obviously, you have your own website, which I'm going to ask you to, spell out the address there and we'll include it in the show notes.

But aside from that, where can we learn more about facades? What is it that we obviously we talked about a few of the main key points that we should be looking for, how can we keep ourselves up to [00:44:00] date?

Blair: Well, I guess it comes down to if you want engineering, then things like facade tectonics, which is an industry group that. Is primarily building envelope folks,Ontario building envelope council is another 1. In fact, Wednesday, they're having a session on pre manufactured walls. And I think it's the most on people coming in.

can't remember now. But Ontario Building Envelope Councils are good people to join and it's not expensive and they have great events. there are some other facade, I guess, organizations or associations, they tend to be run by places and other parts of the world, like the United States. And they tend to cater to, to big buildings on the modular space, the world, the,the, modular building institute is incredible, great bunch of folks, and they have a lot of content, on build, I would recommend getting to Germany.

To build, 

Payam: Okay. I [00:45:00] think that's

Blair: I would, 

Payam: to work

Blair: I'd like to think of my own website, but there's a couple other companies like mine in the state in Ontario that also have some good materials.

Payam: Yeah,

run your webinars and I've been part of a couple of them and they're pretty informative. So, let's let's wrap up with that. Like, where can people find you? How can they reach out to you? Obviously mentioned at what stage it makes sense for you to be involved in the project. And maybe if you want to clarify on that and let us know how Our audience can reach out to you.

How can I work to find you?

Blair: well, my company is facade systems, Inc, and that's my website facade systems, Inc. I have a lot of activity on LinkedIn. I publish about once to twice a week, 100, 000 people viewed my post last year and

Payam: Wow.

Blair: around 500 likes and a whole whack of comments. So that really seems to be working. I, so I'm not touting my own horn, but I, I believe it's bringing value.

So you, you might want to [00:46:00] join me there. yes, I do webinars. I also send out emails on different topics from anything from a specific product or technology. I try to come at it from a different point of view, maybe similar to our conversation today, but, also topics that just may be interesting to you.

So I posted, I sent E blasts out about color,about two, two or three months ago and had almost 10, 000 people, open them up. Yeah, that's more than my database. So, you know, that went, that went around some people's offices and people opened them. so, so then, so those are, those are a couple of ways.

Blair: Okay. So folks here, you heard him. If you're looking for more information, you know where to find him. And, thank you very much, Blair. I really appreciate you being here. I'm hoping and I'm sure that our audience is going to find very useful information from this discussion. And, thank you very much. And if you have any closing remarks, 

I'm really pleased to be [00:47:00] invited by him. And I think you're on an important mission. I think without good conversation with people who have a purpose, we aren't going to change. I think I spent a lot of time on code today. Code isn't how we're going to be better at this, and there's a huge opportunity for Canadians to be the best at this on a global basis.

Payam: Amen. Thank you very much. ​