(16) How Developers Should Make Early Decisions That Shape Projects for Years - Shakeel Walji from Sher Corporation

In this episode of the Real Estate Development Insights Podcast, seasoned real estate developer Shakeel Walji shares insights from his 30-year career in the industry. Shakeel discusses his unconventional journey from engineering to marketing and ultimately into real estate development, where he now manages multiple businesses. He offers practical advice for aspiring developers, emphasizing the importance of understanding financing, timelines, and the critical role of design in successful projects. Shakeel also stresses the need for resilience, continuous learning, and the ability to overcome challenges. He highlights key skills that new developers should focus on and provides a detailed account of a recent project that presented significant obstacles, illustrating the complexities and rewards of real estate development.

• Shakeel's Journey into Real Estate
• The Walsh Group and Marketing Strategies
• Challenges and Successes in Development
• Critical Decisions for New Developers
• Understanding Finance and Timelines
• Evaluating and Acquiring Land
• Design and Development Philosophy
• The Role of Consultants in Development
• Key Skills for New Developers
• Handling Construction Curveballs
• The Reality of Development Lifestyle

If you want to learn about our guest and their professional activities, please visit their website at: https://shercorp.ca/. 

For more information, please refer to RealEstateDevelopmentInsights.com

Take our Free Assessment at: DevelopmentReadinessAssessment.com

Transcript

Payam: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show. 

How 

Shakeel: you Not too bad. How are you?

Payam: Pretty good. Thank you very much for being here. I appreciate your time. you and I have been in touch over the years, and I've been a fan of your work, for a long time Why don't you introduce yourself to our audience, who's Shakeel, and we go from there.

Shakeel: So my name is, Shakeel Walji. I've been in real estate for over 30 years. I kind of fell into it and my path wasn't really a straight line. It's been a meandering line, but I really believe in, uh, Falling your dream and you kind of fall into place and what you're meant to do. So I, I love

real estate and, the path started for me in 1993 when I started my ad agency and, so I come from a different angle when you think of a developer, I'm, I come from the marketing. Side of things get into development. So I'm not a lawyer by trade. I'm an engineer by trade, took metallurgy material science at U of T. I [00:01:00] enjoyed, engineering part of things, but I, what I didn't like was the lack of interaction with people. And so that's when I went into marketing and I really enjoyed that working with a lot of different people. And, that has led me to where I am today. So we have three different businesses. We have the Walsh group, which is a ad agency, unlike other ad agencies, because we really think of. The developer's point of view. So costs of course, to keep them under control, results are key. So marketing every dollar to the most of its capability in terms of, electronic marketing, email blasts, uh, getting down to the core. Of who's buying these units. So, you know, people are really big on right now, you know, Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and all these things. These are social media vehicles that ad agencies out there are pushing. But to me, who've done this for over 30 years, I don't believe in that as much as email blasts, hardcore sales, award the salespeople that are doing it for you. Give them an extra [00:02:00] point if you have to get the things done. So started as an ad agency, did a lot of work for developers. Uh, as a result, I liked the projects that we were working on and ended up buying units. And over the years, I probably had over 40 units, 40 condos in the city. Uh, as far as Ottawa, Halifax. But mostly in Toronto. So from there, we started another company, a property management company for ourselves called JGSand if you can visit the website jgs. ca And then from there, we started a development company in 2007 2008 When we did our first project with Brad Lamb of Lamb Development Corp and Gary Friedman of Hyde Park Homes So that was my first foray into land development You And taking that piece of land at,King and Parliament on the northwest side, converting it into a 15 story building, 215 units, that's the end product. Um, you know, working with partnership is always [00:03:00] tricky. personalities are always hard to manage. And when I did do that project, we finished it in 2014. As you can see, it took us six, seven year cycle to get it done. I always said to myself, I would like to do one myself or with one partner, not two partners. And as a result, we then started another project with Gary Friedman, called the garden district condominiums, which is that, mutual and shooter, which we actually just registered and did our turnover meeting. On September 6th. So it's been

less than

less than 30 

Payam: big 

Shakeel: It is. It's a 32 story tower with retention of heritage homes at the base. Lieutenant General actually lived there in the late 1800s, and the city was really big on retaining it. So that's what we did. And a 32 story tower rising above it. designed by Peter Clues from Architects Alliance, so super proud of that and, my partner Gary as well. Then from there, we [00:04:00] also acquired a couple of other pieces.

we tend to do projects in partnership because it does help to have a partner who thinks like you, acts like you, like minded people, definitely result in better projects. so we, acquired a piece of land at, Queen and Parliament, which is under construction right now. We branded it as warehouse lofts.

we have, it's a brand new construction, but it feels like an old warehouse from Soho in New York. And, I remember when we did the renderings for that and marketing, people would call us and say, you know what, I want to live here. what's the rent like, what are the units like? Can I move in tomorrow? and that wasn't quite the, the result we were expecting, but the result was great. so it's a very unique project with four different components. Retail at grade, which is Freehold, a commercial condo above that from levels two to five, live work from six to 10, which is Tarion governed because as it's residential and the 11th, level, which is an event space.

So that's in partnership with Downing Street. And we have our [00:05:00] last project, which is really for me, encompassing everything that I envision development should be about. And that's in Markham. It's at 97 0 4 McOwen at McOwen and Bur Oak in Burey Village. The reason I say that is because it has all the green initiatives that Markham is looking for. Um, actually Markham is, not as advanced in terms of, green standards as Toronto. But they're certainly open to the ideas and we're really packed a wall up in terms of what we've done there with, that project. And that project is called Everhome, everhomemarkham. ca. But I fell into this business because I, I had a passion for, For design in general and, design doesn't just stop at, print or structure design is all around us.

And I think, I'm like a sponge. So whether I'm looking, watching a movie, reading a book, flipping through a magazine. Walking through the streets of New York or streets of Toronto, things attract me that are visually. Attractive or have a [00:06:00] nuance of design that I kind of gravitate to. So going to development, that's what I bring to my partnerships.

And I've Gary Friedman is a lawyer, very technical, very honest. and, that's our relationship and going, navigating through the city, um, in terms of getting, approvals, Gary is strong at that and I'm strong at that too. So collectively we're able to move this project very quickly. In terms of approvals for, home in Markham, we did all that because that project is a hundred percent our project. Um,it's, like I said, it's a passion of mine, that particular project and the dynamics of it. we could talk about that a little bit later, but my, my motives to get into real estate was, I just basically fell into it and I fell in love

Payam: Right. 

Shakeel: knew I was in the right place. And that's how it started.

Payam: And it's been going well by the looks of it. AndSo I want to ask you a few framework questions if you may. Because our audience and our content is geared [00:07:00] toward newer generation of developers. Developers that who might be in your shoes 20 years ago, 30 years ago, one starting out and they might be coming from a different profession.

They might be coming, maybe they have made money in else, other industries elsewhere. And now because of obviously the significant demand and opportunity, therefore, that is in the market that we need to supply housing. 

I'm going to start by asking you this question that if I'm a new developer, what would you say are my top, let's say two or three key.

Decisions that I need to make very early on in the project in the process that could potentially pay dividends for years to come. And if I want to apply the 80 20 principle, like obviously as developer, you're going to make tons and tons of decisions, but I would like, I would think that not all of them are created equal and I'm wondering if you have two or three that are very critical in your mind.

Shakeel: I think, being in the business for 30 [00:08:00] years, wearing a marketing hat, a developer hat, a builder hat. I probably have a different answer today, if you, compared to, if you asked me this question, you know, eight years pre COVID would have been a different answer. today's answer is more geared to what I'm living through with my current development and that is finance. You really need to have a handle with financing, and I don't just mean financing to acquire land. You really have to understand, from beginning to end, the entire process, the timeline, and you have to set targets. You really have to set targets. So those would be, if somebody's starting fresh, in terms of development, they've got a piece of land, they know the area they want to build in, they kind of have an aspiration to do mid rise. You know, tall building, high rise or single family homes. They have to understand finance and their timeline, and they really have to try to stick to [00:09:00] it.approvals, you're looking anywhere from, I want to say, one to two and a half years.I can tell you our project in Markham, we got that approved in one year.Garden District took Gary and I about two and a half years to get through.Warehouse Lofts, we came in from a branding standpoint. Downing Street already did it. And that took them about two and a half years. And that was a very

Payam: And sorry, just to be clear, you're talking, you're talking zoning all the way to permit. Is that the period you're covering there?

Shakeel: So I would say, no, I would say approvals where you can basically know the framework that the city will approve or support. And I fully approved documents with,SPA don't mean that, I mean that you've got a positive report or you've got a positive inclination from the city planner, from the counselors, and you feel that you will be victorious because this is a battle typically because you're trying to increase density with the prices that [00:10:00] landowners want for their land. So I would set that to be between one to two and a half years. You may say that's over a hundred percent range, going from one year to two and a half years. But you really have to understand where you're developing. What are the primary and secondary plans for that area? What is forecasted for growth?

Like right now, as you said, the requirements for development, all the, hoops that you have to jump through have been reduced,like sky views, shadowing, those have been kind of gone on the wayside where those were very, very big, big things, especially when it came to neighboring heritage. Neighboring, green space or parks, cities looking that a little bit differently than they did, pre COVID pre housing boom, we need housing. We need housing, we need housing. So you really have to understand that. And, worst case three years, because remember most developers are not buying the land in cash and there's nothing, they're buying it.

They're leveraging it. They're putting some money [00:11:00] down. Maybe there's income on the property, but it will not fully cover the cost of buying the land. You have to give yourself a timeline and for me personally it's one to two years and what I mean by that is I usually Make an offer if I believe in the land strongly I will have to do all the running around and what I mean by that is, Talk to the counselor talk to the planner know someone who understands this area Drive by at different times of the day in the morning during work hours in the weekend You'll get a real sense of the site Then you see if you really want to do it. Once you've got that, you have to dive in. You can't put one toe in and test the waters. You have to dive in and say, this is what I want. This is what I want to develop. This is my ultimate goal. Most people, their goal is different. I shouldn't be asking you this question. What's your, what would your goal be if you were becoming a developer? And,for me personally, my goal is to build something that I'm proud of. And I think when, [00:12:00] Gary and I did the development or what we've designed at Markham or even warehouse lofts, I want to be proud of these projects. My, my motive is more design. my partners would have a different answer for me is more about design. The aesthetics, the feel, the purchaser's experience, the homeowner's experience when they're living in this community. and then have those little special things that make it different. You know, that's where I come from. And with that, you of course ultimately have to make a profit. You want to make a profit. But if I made less profit and I was really proud of the building, or I made more profit and was not part of, not liking the building, I'm more like the first design is key

and then we make profit. That's how I look at things.

Payam: that's great. And you touched on a whole bunch of different things that I want to ask your follow up questions. you, emphasized the importance of land. Believe, you said your words were believe in the land, if you believe in the land. And you touched on Drive by it. Can you walk us a little bit more through [00:13:00] that framework, that mental process that you go through?

I'm a new developer or I have some cash. I want to go pick up a land. I've seen a few and how do you narrow it down?

Shakeel: So originally when, when I get calls from agents, or people who have land and don't want to get rid of the land, um, they would say I have a land in this part of the city in Hamilton, Markham, Richmond Hill, Toronto, Scarborough, Leaside, and I would always say, people used to ask me, I always used to say, what's Toronto, where do you want to develop?

Payam: My answer was Toronto. My answer is no longer Toronto, not because of what's happening now in the marketplace, but I think it's more about if you see the site and it could be anywhere you see the site, see how it works, how it's what the dynamic elements are of the site and the context in which it sits. You might be drawn to it. I'll give you an example. Please.

Shakeel: had a client and an agent who's a friend of mine And she knew a developer [00:14:00] who had a piece of land in hamilton and the developer The previous developer unfortunately failed another developer picked it up and wasn't interested in developing it anymore Just wanted to get rid of it. And she said you want to buy this site. Nobody knows about it. It's off market You First of all, that intrigues you right off the bat. It's off market. So there's not too many bidders. You can actually look at it. And my first answer to was, I'm not really keen about Hamilton. I like it. I'm following it to understand what's happening there. But do I want to run there and buy a piece of land today? Not so much. She convinced me. She said, listen, he's got approval for 370 units. It's, um, 28 stories, but the height that they've got is much higher than the 28 stories. So even if you did nine foot ceilings, you still have lots of rooms. There's a heritage component.and it's gone through the cycle. Like the counselors there really want to [00:15:00] support it or supported it. The original developer be a landmark building. It's right by city hall, right in the city. And, once she's told me all that and I say, you know what she called me like on a Wednesday, I said, you know what, give me about a week. I want to go there. and this is not like going to Richmond Hill. This is the Hamilton. I want to

go there, look at it, see if it entices me. So, she basically sent me the plans, sent me the land, what the original developer did, what the plans were. The plans that were presented to me were about 180 units, but they had approval for 360. And all the 180 units were quite large. When I say quite large, when I say that I mean i'm comparing it to the context of todayBefore all this news about things are not selling if you're 500 square feet. That's the wrong size. We need more Units that are designed to live not designed to sell to students and rent before that Okay, these units were between 800 [00:16:00] to 1100 square feet and to me right away.

That was a mistake It's way too big this is why things are getting smaller and smaller because price per square foot is getting higher and higher. That's really the reason. It's not like the developers said, hey, I'm going to build you a shoe box. It's not that. It's the idea of keeping the price point affordable for a larger market. So to do that, the units have been getting smaller. Now this is Hamilton. So you're not going to get back then, the market in Toronto was 14, 1500 a foot. So if you can get a thousand dollars a foot in Hamilton, you're doing pretty good. Okay. So that was the target thousand dollars a foot. So I went there, had a look and, it was beside a, a,I guess a needle center where if you're addicted to opioids,

 want to go there for treatment.there was a couple of churches there. It's, there's, it's a row of churches. And this is one heritage church that was torn down. All the remedial work was already done. It only had the facade standing, which is what they were going to [00:17:00] retain.and the rest of it was cleared. Okay. There was a lot of history on the site because the original developer did some of the work for it. There was a lot of documentation. There's a geotech environmental, there was soil testing.

Retention, there was metering on the, on the facade that was remaining to see how it weathers, you know, summer, winter, fall, how it's expanding the motor joints. There's And I literally fell in love with it and I would have said I went there on Saturday But then I also went there on Sunday. I also went there on Monday Also went there on Tuesday and all those days that I went during the weekdays.

I basically told my office i'm not here And I literally spent the day in hamilton. I loved it. I appreciated the site and I made an offer So

 that interaction is really important that some of the homework was already done because I had documentation city staff saying yeah We will fully support this height of building You can have 26 stories.

Now, what I was thinking in my mind [00:18:00] was I want to build it to 32 stories because I could because the height was already there. It didn't have significant underground parking, only one level. And there was a automated parking system behind the building where it was blocked by a bell building.

Payam: made sense.

Shakeel: The problem was the unit sizes I didn't agree with. Doing this for 30 years, working with the likes of Brad. Uh, knowing, real estate companies like, like a Hunter Millborn, um, intuition,Baker small is key, they added the word flex to me instead of calling it again, they call it a flex is what four feet by four feet, four feet by eight feet and you market it that way.

So it's all about. For me, it was marketing a size that was affordable. The universities there are plenty, really strong. Like McMaster, DeGroote, a lot of history in there. So I was all in, so we were talking back and forth and that's when I made the decision to make the offer, to the [00:19:00] landowner, but that's an example what you have to go through.

Payam: So you basically had a lot of, call it the brain side of the work done, that in that particular case, a lot of homework, a lot of work, a lot of documentation, which covered a lot of your risk. And I guess the last step was your intuition and your gut, and you basically had to sell yourself on the project, so you'd be potentially be able to convince others on the benefit of the 

project, on the viability of the project, 

Shakeel: The biggest advocate for the project is the developer.the biggest person who's saying, yes. Look at me. I'm bright and shiny. Here it is. Buy It's you. you have to fully believe in it, and if you have any inkling that you're not happy with certain aspect of it, you have to find a way to resolve it. Whether accept the challenge and say, okay, this is part of it. I'm going to deal with it and I accept it. Or don't accept it and make the change. So you improve on it, but you are ultimately the person.

Payam: gotcha. I want to circle back to one [00:20:00] thing you said earlier. and I've seen a lot of developers that I've had the privilege of working with, deal with the same thing. I'm assuming you to probably bigger state or greater extent. And that's where do you define the draw the line and say, you know what?

This is enough tinkering with the project definition, unit sizes, heights, footprints, amenities, because like you said, you're a creative person. A lot of people that we work with are super creative. They're very smart. And from my side of things, which is mostly on the on someone who runs the construction side of the project or development side of the project, I see that project definition to be probably, if not the most, one of the most.

Critical. Where do we stop? Do we keep going back? Do we keep asking for more? Do we keep revising? There's endless possibilities. How do you make that decision?

Shakeel: So the biggest thing is time. I come back to my first and scheduling time is critical. One thing that I would [00:21:00] say that the skillset that I possess compared to most developers is very different. So when I look at a floor plate, or I look at the area that I have to design, build the units. We can do that in house.

I can draw a sketch and I know exactly what I want. Most developers can't do that. They rely on architect, interior designer, um, a friend that has dabbled in it, something. Because we're in the business, we understand unit sizes. We understand what people are looking for. Our office is in a condominium. It's at the base of a building at River City. We use it as a, live work scenario. in my office I have a kitchen, condo kitchen, I have a condo bathroom. We use it as a test, a testing, situation. I have done masking tapes on our boardroom table. I've measured heights of, doors or casings. I use that as an incubator to [00:22:00] stimulate what we want to design. we love exposed concrete and you can see in my office, in my ceiling, I have exposed concrete. I paid extra to, when this was being built to actually have walls left as concrete, take away the drywall. I remember the CM that was on this job, which is bluescape. And his name was Lou. He says, Shakeel, why are you doing this? I go, I love concrete. Youyou have to really absorb, to sell something, to believe in something, you have to yourself like it. The only thing I have to say, and I've learned this from Brad. Our first project we did together, the designs were, the unit sizes were way too big. Because what happened was, and Brad was transitioning from an agent to a developer. Brad, I consider Brad a very good friend of mine. Okay. So don't take this the wrong way. So when you get into development for the first time, you want to design it, build it, imagine how you're going to live in it. everything we designed for that project, which was called the King East was [00:23:00] too big. Youaverage size was seven 50. We went to market, we sold 40 units, 20 units stuck. And, that was a reason in the end, we ended up cutting units in half.that's how we got to 215 units to be able to sell from that experience.

I knew that if I was going to do a development myself, it's not about you living in this space. It's about you designing it to what you like. You like a certain kitchen style, like a certain bathroom style, want wide shallow units. That's what you like design that, but remember it's not for you. It's for the audience.

Who's going to be a first time buyer. Wants to live downtown. It's the environment. That's what the key is. So as you say, how many times do you go back to the drawing board?how many times do you reinvent it? You have to have a timeframe. You have to have a timeframe. So as you're going through approvals, you're also designing the building with the architect or your inspiration. [00:24:00] For me, my biggest inspiration is not the architect. My biggest inspiration is myself and what I see. So Pinterest, it's fantastic, right? The news around us, this social media. You don't have to look at architecture just in Toronto. I'll give you an example. Everhome in Markham is unlike any community in the City of Toronto. Because I looked to London, England for that inspiration. I designed the city. How that building works. We did every single floor plan in the three projects. I've mentioned garden district was all those floor plans were designed by my office warehouse lofts different animal. All those units were designed by our office ever home Markham.

All those units were designed by our office. We understand what people want to buy and you have to have that and whether you can design the plan or you know someone you trust, you know what you want to envision. Like I work for a lot of developers with our marketing company, the Walsh Group. I still [00:25:00] do that. And I recently did a project for a client of mine and he was in a rush. To get to market in this environment. And I said, what's the rush? Like it's not moving. The market's not moving. You got to spend the time on the unit design. You have to spend the time. He didn't, he relied on the interior designer and he relied on the architect.

The architect is never the right person to design your units. They're interested in the glory. They're interested in the extra envelope of the building. And they're fantastic at it. If you have a good firm, they're absolutely fantastic at it. That's what they're good at. Not the inside, right? So you need someone whose main focus is the inside, right? So this is where the interior designer comes in, or in our case, where we come in, we definitely going to comment on what we want the building to look like, because we use precedence, we use Pinterest. We look with our eyes, because the world is no longer a fishbowl, it's an [00:26:00] ocean.

 can go anywhere you

want, you're going to see something spectacular.

Try to incorporate those elements into your building, right? And, I have to say that Everhome is that project in London, England called Tapestry. Designed by a developer, surrounded by brownfield lands. Everything was contaminated. So when he designed that site called Tapestry, he said there's nothing here to look at. There's no CN Tower, there's no London Bridge, there's no Big Ben. I want this community to look inside, look within itself, have a draw. He came up with the idea of a central courtyard. And he had the buildings, the front building on the main artery, the main road, and he had buildings in the back that looked upon the courtyard. I looked at that and I go, this is absolutely brilliant because nobody thinks like that rarely, you find a really good architect. And I have to say out of 32 years of my experience, the best architect that I've worked with through my client, which in this case was urban capital, [00:27:00] was S and P. SocioParad, incredible people.

Absolutely. And that's what river city is. River city is one of those projects that really excited me. Youand, looking at design differently, most architects, just like you and I, we're running from point A to point B to point C point D. And unfortunately, when you have a, a service provider, a consultant who is like that, you may be good, but a lot of the work is, you know, regurgitated. And if you're going to risk your life, you're going to risk your savings, your time, your seven years of your life. Do you want that in the mix? Maybe, but do you want it at 80 percent or do you want that at 10 percent 20 percent I'm more like that architects serve a purpose and they're also visionary in some point of view, right? But they have to be technically sound that's my biggest thing They have to be technically sound because you have to go through design Working drawings and construction if they're not strong working drawings and construction, then that's not a firm. I want to work with If they're [00:28:00] weak in the design part, I'm okay. I'm okay because I will help them design something that's very unique. And, that's the goal of the developer. You are ultimately the master. You're the quarterback. You got to determine who are, who's going to be on your team to help you get to the end goal. So it's critical. Consultants are critical.and consultants that I've worked with that I like, I've repeated them there on a multiple of my projects, and you have to do that. You really have to do that because it'll save you time somewhere else and you can use that time for something you need for the project. So time is very valuable, right?

So

I think consultants are key.

Payam: And I think that's 1 of the things that gets neglected that these from our side of things is that yes, you want a building that looks good on the outside. But at the same time, if you're working drawings are not good, it exposes you to that much more rest during construction phase and potentially a lot of things going out of whack [00:29:00] in terms of your budget and 

timelines.

 I want to go back to what you said the timeline, which I'd never thought about it that way. But if you have, like you mentioned. A set timeline for the project for different milestones for different stages at some point, you're just going to cut the court and say, listen, this is designed.

We're going with this is a unit mix. This is the facade and just let's go. And I have a good fortune of working with a client that keeps saying no decision is about this is the worst decision. At some point you meet, you need to make that decision and move forward. So building on that. What would you say is the one key skill or one or two more key skills a new developer?

Obviously, you mentioned you have tons of experience, you have decades of experience. If someone is work starting out and they're saying, okay, the next five years, I'm going to hone in this one or two skills. What would that be?

Shakeel: So I want to just step back a little bit. I may be in real estate for 32 years. I still consider myself a new developer. And, think when you consider [00:30:00] yourself successful, seasoned, you know what you're doing all the time, that's a problem for me, it's a problem. No,I have taught my kids. And myself, and I don't know if my kids follow this, but you have to learn something every single day to make that day valuable. And you have to treat people the way you want to be treated. It's very important that you convey that, as a developer, because you can't assume, or you cannot think that, you know, everything because there'll be a curve ball. There'll be a curveball in construction. There'll be a curveball, um, with the city planning staff, there'll be a curveball after the city approves everything and you're building the building, they could come to you and say, hey, this, you cannot do this.

It's not building code. You're violating building code to do this. And you can say, look, it's on the drawing. You stamped it. They'll just say, yeah, we stamped it. So what it's

not 

building code. The building inspector is not going to approve it, change it. So [00:31:00] you have to be able to be, you have to be flexible. You have to listen, even though you may not have the best day or you're not in a good mood, you have to find the ability to listen and be patient.it's really good to listen. This is something I have to teach myself. To listen to others before speaking,it's, it is a very important skill. It is very important skill. So I would say for a new developer. Those are really key points. When you're

Payam: Learning and 

Shakeel: Learning and listening. I agree. Couldn't say

it better. 

Payam: interestingly enough, you're not the first guest on this podcast who mentioned at least the listening part. I think we had George Popper on one of the episodes. He also mentioned listening. That's the key skill. okay. I want to. Switch gears a little bit. You, we talked about all the glory.

Do you mind walking us through one of the scenarios that you're,you're involved in the project or in whatever capacity, and [00:32:00] you're waking up, you're getting one of those curve balls and you are,what, how the heck are we gonna deal with this one? Walk us through that, one of those situations if you may.

And, because I think. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong. I think, resilience and optimism is an integral part of what you do,

and I want to see if you have any good examples or stories for our audience 

Shakeel: Well, I'll give you my latest example. that just happened, this week,came to a head. this problem was raised almost eight weeks ago. We, to the trade raised it to our CM, and our CM raised it to us. And they basically pushed it on to the consultants. This was regarding a sanitary connection in the building with approved drawings from the city of Markham, saying we approve this. In the drawing design, two parties are involved. The mechanical engineer, okay, and the civil engineer who's designing the mechanical [00:33:00] system, but he's doing the final service connections for storm, sanitary, domestic water, and stormwater. Fire, he's doing the connections. So he's giving input and direction from his point of view. The mechanical is designing it for capacity and plumbing fixtures we have in our building. Two different approaches, they have to work together to get it done. so they designed the, system to allow for a sanitary discharge for all of our buildings. Every home is made up of four buildings, three of them are residential. the final connection to the manhole had to be an eight inch connection, because, or 200 millimeters, because that's what the city requires. You cannot do a reducer in the building envelope. You cannot do that. That's against building code. guess what? Between the two of them, that's what was designed. The servicing main artery was designed at 250 millimeters as a 10 inch pipe because we have that many plumbing fixtures over three buildings [00:34:00] with a gradual slope of 1%. And we're going approximately, 317 feet looking at the east boundary of the property line to the west boundary of the property line before we discharge. So the whole pipe system ranges from a four, four inch pipe, six inch pipe, but the main artery is a 10 inch pipe. In the communication between the two of them, the mechanical designer had it a 10 inch. The final sketch was showing an eight inch. That's how it was left. The trade came to the scene and said, this is strange. You have a 10 inch pipe, but it's going to an eight inch. There's no transition and building code will not allow this. This is the trade, not the engineer, not the mechanical engineer or the civil engineer, it's the trade. RFI gets filed, request for more information gets filed over six to eight weeks, no answers. Last week, the plumbing inspector went to the site, told The junior, associate, super, I'm not [00:35:00] going to approve this. This is a violation of building code. I'm not going to approve this, figure it out. They told me, and I just wanted to say, WTF. 

Payam: That's a heck of

Shakeel: Yeah. what's going that's a heck of a curveball.

 and you guys haven't solved it. So when that happens is first of all, my temperature rises, but the biggest thing that I've learned is. Breathe, go to sleep, wake up, take a shower, get dressed, come to work. It's a new day. The sun will shine again. So that happened. I talked to the mechanical engineer. I said, what can we do here? Let's resolve, let's find a solution first.

Let's see how we're going to tackle it before we call the building inspector again. So two options were presented. One was changing the cast iron pipe to PEX. The coefficient of friction on the PEX pipe is much less compared to cast iron. Slope is still 1%, and you'll achieve roughly the same ratio acting on an 8 [00:36:00] inch pipe.

You'll act like a 10 inch pipe because the coefficient is that much less. Okay? How much of a pipe chase we're going to change? He didn't really give me an answer for that, but he said it'll be significant to where we connect to city services. I said, okay, I suggested what if we just bored through where we are from the 200 millimeter pipe and just created a 10 inch and go into the manhole.

Is that allowed? They said, let's ask. So we called the civil engineer and we said, listen, the discharge to the main artery for city of Markham is a 200 millimeter, already approved, already built for us. It's already there. We're not touching that. Our discharge into the manhole, Can we go larger than an eight inch, a 200, can we go over the 250? So civil engineer goes, you can't, because there are two different lines independent and you've got a sump. So whatever you discharge, it's going to collect and then go out a different way. You cannot do a reducer in [00:37:00] your building, but you can do a reducer out of your building. Now we had completed all this work. All our site servicing work is completed, graded, and I said, okay, let's talk to the city inspector. These are our two options. By that time, by the time, the mechanical engineer got to the site, he determined what the length was. 

So it's 250 feet of cast iron pipe, which is already hung up by our trade, which has

done a fantastic job, has to all come down. You're going to put PEX up and you can fuse PEX to cast iron, but the cost is going to be, in my mind, I'm thinking this is going to be like, Six figures

Payam: right?

Shakeel: the other option. I have to convince the site servicing trade that we had hired first of all What does he think of this option? Does he like it? And is it a cheaper option? we met a few days ago. He looked at it goes absolutely Shakeel. This is the way to go We don't want to do the pecs because it's way too much. I can get this done in a week. I can do it 

[00:38:00] I met with the

city inspector. And the city inspector said, yeah, we could accept that because the manhole there is really acting as a collection tank.

you're just dumping in, it could be anything dumping in, but going out, we require it to be eight inch. That was it.

Payam: that's a heck of a

Shakeel: Yeah, that's a heck of a curveball.

Yeah, and now we're working towards getting that resolved. We've informed the city inspector. He's good with it. We're doing the work.

But that was a curve ball.

Payam: but that's, that's a very good formula there that breathe sleep and start a new day and try because I think what is hidden in that sequence that you just outlined is that typically on the construction side of things I do. Get quite a bit of these types of calls that something is missing on the drawing or something is not lined up and I want to say 95 percent of the time there's more context to the initial observation.

And I think at least what I've learned through the years is that the first signal is probably a very [00:39:00] limited portion of the bigger picture and you need to get more facts, more data before, before you decide how much to freak 

Shakeel: Yeah, 

Payam: I, that's, how I would put it

Shakeel: And this is

Payam: because some of them.

Shakeel: that curve ball, for example, like every day, when I go to the site, I'm learning something new from the trades, from the engineers, I love it. that's what I really love. I went to the site to look at all the work, the mechanical and the electrical have done in our site.

This is just mechanical electrical. Forget the main structure, which looks great, but I even get excited to see pipes being hung. Or, seeing the, breaker panel for our EV charger that just arrived. At our site, on Tuesday, right? it's it's exciting. there's so many different aspects to it. And,it's every day is different. Good and bad, but every day is different. And I think I enjoy that the most of it. I think a young developer has to understand that. Your day will not be the same Monday through [00:40:00] Friday, and your mood will not be the same Monday through Friday. I had a friend, a developer I was working for, and I would see him at our meetings and say, Hey, how are you doing?

He goes, I'm up today. I said, okay. And I'll see you another day. I say, how's everything going? I'm down today. I never understood that till actually when I went into development myself. I no longer have an alarm. I wake up every day at 5 AM. If I go to bed at 12 or one o'clock, I'm up at five. I'm at my office by six o'clock in the morning. Not by choice. There's too many things going on. And,

um, I cannot leave it just to others to get stuff done because it doesn't go get done in my mind as fast as it should. So I get involved. So I think a young developer needs to understand that this is not all glory every single day. 

 the pain makes the little glory that you get that much better because you have to suffer [00:41:00] before you succeed. It's on the daily. It's on the daily.

Payam: I very much appreciate you sharing that the hardship side of it because I think and I want to lead into the next question here is I think there was a period of time that I personally. Probably for a very long time that the developers were considered the evil part of the ecosystem of the construction, 

and, uh, like you, you're, you know, there's So, are I, I'm, I'm optimistic that it's, it's getting a little bit better just because, because.

Obviously, personally, I'm of the opinion that the developers are providing a very critical service to society as part of what they're doing.

And,

yeah, I want to see what your thoughts are on that. Is there any misconceptions or myths that, we should be clearing here?

Shakeel: I think the biggest thing for young developers to know is not rosy 24 7. That's number one. And you have to work at it. What you put in is what you're going to get out. If you put no effort in and expect everybody to do it, [00:42:00] your timeline is just going to go like this, right? You have to be in touch with everyone. you're in the end, the quarterback, you got to know what the wide receivers thinking, the running backs thinking, you have to know everything you're coordinating. You're the orchestra leader. You're coordinating everything. The violins, the violas, the bass section, you're coordinating everyone to work together. So you really are accountable, and in the end, to be honest, we are accountable. if you succeed, everyone will clap. If you

fail, you're dirt, like you're as good

as your last performance.you

can't say, well, I did this and I did this and I did this. It means nothing. It's as good as your last performance. That's what counts. The misperception about developers is that we have it so good.in today's climate after COVID, I don't think any developer has it good, unless you've got a [00:43:00] really good support, financial support system behind you that's funding you and you're covered with all these, we've gone through two and a half years of raising, hiking interest rates. Now we're

coming down. They went up so fast and yet Tiff Macklin feels it's coming down as like 225 basis point, 25 basis points. We went up like 50, a hundred basis points and Tiff is dropping it by 25 basis points. The government has to really understand. They have to walk in our shoes

and they have to make one thing.

I, I cannot stand, and this happens a lot. And,in the circle that I'm, the people that I have around me. They'll over promise and under deliver and we can't be like that. we cannot over promise and I have,construction managers and site supers and I say, when is this going to get done?

When is this? Oh, I'm going to get it done this week. It'll be all that windows will be in by this week. It's not going to happen because he's already failed so [00:44:00] many other times and he feels I wonder if he thinks that I will believe him when he tells me that because he's failed so many times over promising under delivering.

We cannot be like that. That's just a bad situation. And our politicians want to build,100, 000 units in five years or whatever their

goal is. I don't even, I tune out when they start talking about that because in my mind, I want to know what is the plan. I'm sure it's in your mind too. What is the plan to deal with affordable housing and housing in general? The housing market in the last two years has actually slowed down. People have put their projects on hold. Their land acquisitions are stopped. Banks have stopped funding. Developers to

buy land. It's not out there. It's crickets. So

while this is going on, this is your city, your country. While this is going on, politicians are saying we're going to build this and we're going to build that.

how are you going to do that?

Payam: it's not 

Shakeel: It's not happening. You've got to 

Payam: It's a pie in the sky 

Shakeel: exactly you have to be, the [00:45:00] idea of being, positive saying, cups half full and I'm like that, but you also have to be a realist, right? And when you're

Payam: You have to have a 

Shakeel: it to people are paying taxes, I'm paying taxes.

You're paying taxes. And you hear this and you're saying like, these guys have no clue what they're doing. 

Payam: we need people who's been, who've had boots on the ground 

and know what it takes. To your point, I see the news every day and it's talking about a shortage and supply shortage and housing crisis. And at the same time, I'm thinking I can count so many different projects that were on hold, have been on hold for the past.

And this is just creating a vacuum of supply, which is going to show itself in a couple of years from now, when things are going to get that much more crazy. And, yeah, it's a different beast. I want to start wrapping this 

up. 

what do you typically read to keep yourself updated?

Shakeel: My wife would laugh at my answer because she knows it's true. I don't read. I don't like reading. I'm more visually stimulated. one

of the things that I do every day that she does not [00:46:00] like is I watch news, CBC, every single day, even though the news is very similar to the day before. But I do keep my eyes and ears open when it comes to our business. You have to. And because we have a marketing side of things, we're always watching new launches. Always watching projects that are failing or projects that are succeeding. Uh, we're watching trends in the marketplace for example, you know when you pour your foundation slab, architects are designing it with Or the, structural engineer will design it with mesh and pour concrete. We don't have to do that anymore. We can, we use fiber within the concrete to do that. Give it some elasticity to withstand some cracks, things like that. Like I'm always looking at new ways to get things done. 

 I love learning. I love learning. And I think If there's something that you want to definitely teach a developer or [00:47:00] motivate people, if they don't know what they want to do with their life, but if they'd like to learn the building industry, the development industry, you will never stop learning. And, that's

what's really, That's what I really enjoy. whether I'm learning

something from you, learning something from my site servicing guy, or learning something from the electrical. I'm learning something new every day and I really enjoy that.

Payam: So if you were going to give your 20 year old self or for that matter, your kids now probably some general pointers about their career, And in the industry, and I don't want to just limit it to, I don't want to limit it to development.

If you're an engineer, if you're an architect, if you're a designer, or if you're, even if you're a trade, a skilled trader, do you have any pointers 

Shakeel: So to my kids and even to a young developer, I would say that if you want to do something that you want to be really proud of and everything that you do,the way I look at things, even at home, if I'm [00:48:00] cleaning something or I'm folding something or raking the grass or cutting this, I always want to do it to my best of my ability. And people will say, no, that's overkill. Like, you know, why, why do you say that? It's just a way of life. Like how you live your life, like whether you're doing something, why do you want to do it halfway? You got to do it a hundred percent and development gives people that opportunity. If you want to, if you're big on design. I don't have a design background, but I have very happy clients that I work for that we designed a marketing campaign, designed a brand, a logo, made sales. We're interior designers as well. I'm not an interior designer, but we've designed sales centers. We've designed, clothes. We designed for the MS bike tour.

We designed clothing for them. We've designed interior showrooms just because we have an eye that we think we like, we think we know what we, what people like, we see the reaction, we do it. We're not architects or [00:49:00] interior designers, but we design the units in our projects, because we really believe in what we're doing and we don't live in a vacuum.

That's one key thing I have to say. You have to have a thick skin, and you have to be able to present it to your wife, to your kids, to your fellow co worker, to a professional, and get their opinion. And whether they throw you under the bus, or they give you words of wisdom, or motivation, it all leads to that same motive, that you want to do something to the best of your ability. It doesn't have to be development can be anything and that's the journey that my kids are on all four of them, 

have thick skin and follow it to the fullest. 

Payam: I guess that's what I'm 

Shakeel: You're going to do something, do it to your best of your ability. Don't do it half.

Payam: Don't go halfway. Thank you very much, Akil. I very much appreciate your time here. 

Shakeel: I enjoyed our conversation and I enjoyed the opportunity to just give my thoughts on things. Thank you so much.

Payam: Thank you. I appreciate that. Have a good 

Shakeel: ​