(29) Beyond Density: Building Mid-Rises for Community and Connection - Jaegap Chung - Studio JCI

In this episode, Join Payam and esteemed architect Jaegap Chung as they delve into the complexities and future of urban housing design. Jaegap, a first-generation immigrant and seasoned architect focusing on housing solutions, shares insights on creating livable and sustainable mid-rise buildings in Toronto. The conversation navigates through the evolution of housing trends, the quality of city design, public and private realms, and the importance of creating functional living spaces. Discover the challenges and solutions related to urban housing, including the benefits of mid-rise buildings, the importance of public transportation, and how prefabrication and automation can shape the future of construction. A must-listen for anyone interested in architecture, urban planning, and housing policy.

• Biggest Challenges in Urban Housing and City Planning
• Top Mid-Rise Building Trends in Urban Design
• What to Consider Before Starting an Urban Infill Development
• How to Improve Livability in Mid-Rise Apartment Buildings
• Best Ways to Maximize Small Space in Urban Housing
• What Is a Third Space and Why It Matters in Urban Living
• How Mid-Rise Buildings Can Help Revitalize Neighborhoods
• Common Housing Development Problems and How to Solve Them
• Innovative Housing Ideas for the Future of Cities
• How to Build Community in Multi-Unit Residential Buildings
• What Is Co-Living and How It Builds Social Connection
• How to Speed Up the Housing Development Process
• What’s Next for the Construction Industry in Canada

For more information, please refer to RealEstateDevelopmentInsights.com

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Transcript

Payam: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Real Estate Development Insights podcast, where we bring you ideas, experiences, and best practices from the real estate development industry. My name is Paal Nhi and I'm your host here. My guest for this episode is JG Gapp Chung. J Gapp is a founding principle of Studio JCIA, Toronto based architectural firm, which has a very impressive and extensive resume.

And Studio JCI is recognized for the types of projects that they do in JTA in Toronto. The J Gap has been doing this for more than 25 years, and they have a signature design, if you might say, and in this episode we dive into some of the aspects of the construction and real estate development. They're not getting the attention they deserve.

And yes, we do have a housing crisis, major, major issue. We do have affordability crisis, also major issue. But that being said, at the end of the [00:01:00] day, quantity of housing and quantity of supply can only go so much toward improving the quality of life, which is the ultimate goal. In this episode, we talk quite a bit about quality of life in these units.

We talk about livability of these buildings that are being designed and built. JGA talks about the function of a building in the context of a city and how our design affects the functionality of overall city and the for the human being. The role of density, the role of relationships, the role of spaces, the concept of the third space in the overall community for people and the importance of that.

These are all explored in this unit. We talk about neighborhood, how potentially Midrise buildings can have a critical role of bringing back that neighborhood feel of a main street where in an old town. Which is somewhat launched these days in some areas of our communities and society. And as always, you can find more [00:02:00] information about JG Gap, their firm Studio, JCI, and there are other episodes on our website, real estate development insights.com, real estate development insights.com.

That's all one phrase and I hope you're enjoying our episodes. And if you're doing that, please remember to subscribe to the show and also even better let others know about it. Help us get the word out and uh, reach other people. Thank you very much for your support.

Hey Jacob, welcome to the show. What are you doing today? 

Jaegap: I'm doing great, thanks. I am for having me 

Payam: Overing your show. Fantastic, fantastic. Thank you for being here. Very much appreciate your time. Can you please give our audience a little bit of an introduction? Who's J Gap, what do you for a living and who go from there?

Jaegap: Uh, so my name is Jacob Chung. Uh, I'm a first generation immigrant from South Korea. I came to Canada about, you know, 30 plus years ago. And, uh, I'm an architect and I've been working [00:03:00] as an architect for about 25, uh, odd years. And, um, I'm super excited about housing our office. We focus a lot on housing, different kind of scale of housing from low right mid-rise to highrise and to kind of multi-phase mass dining.

And I think housing is very interesting. So the, the domestic space has been super interesting to me because it's, it's fundamentally sort of, it's a macrocosm to me of how well a city functions. So, you know, you, if you look at the city and the streets and, and the way they kind of function and operate, you see, uh, kind of public realms and you see private realms, like some of the stores like.

Like coffee shops would be kind of your living room. Uh, the streets are kind of the public ground and uh, and then you got sort your private rems and it's, it's very interesting, um, how you can apply that to a domestic space where you've got series of public private threshold spaces, uh, you know, and kind of outdoor [00:04:00] rooms.

It's also very interesting because, um, housing has been a kind of an issue for me. Uh, you know, in, in the city of Toronto. Housing is, um, has been a challenge for, you know, uh, for, for Canada, uh, for the last, um, I would say probably two decades For, for, for decades now. 

Payam: Yeah. 

Jaegap: Yeah. Yeah. Two decades. And, uh, you know, given that it's a very large country, we have a population density that's somewhere in the range of like two or three people per kilometers square as a, as a country.

Yeah. Versus where I'm from in South Korea where it's, I think we're like six to 700 people per kilometers square. So the amount of density that, you know, in Asia compared to Canada is substantially higher. And yet we see ourselves struggling, define adequate, uh, space and housing for our, you know, our people, which is, uh, very ironic.

I find that to be very ironic. 

Payam: [00:05:00] I, I share your, i, I share your perspective. I come from a pretty dense background as well, and, uh, I remember when I landed in Canada almost 10 years ago now, and, and I was looking at all this land, I'm like, this is a blank canvas. Imagine what you can do with this blank canvas.

And hopefully, hopefully the next 10 years we're going to do some of that, uh, together and hopefully some of it together. Like you mentioned, you have, first of all, you've been around for a while, like you've seen the industry transform and evolve. Mm-hmm. If you may. And, uh, but in particular in this episode, um, I know you have done quite a bit of Midrise buildings and I want to go toward the Midrise buildings and the urban fabric and how things should work together.

But before we get started on that whole, uh, specific conversation per se, what has been the trend or what has been the evolution path that you've witnessed for good or bad in terms of what you just mentioned, the quality of the city design and how, regarding [00:06:00] regardless of the capacity and the shortage of supply and demand, but the quality, not the quantity, the quality of this path that you've been on for the past two decades.

Can you give us some insight? Where have, where have we been before? What was point A? Where are we right now, and where do you think we're going? 

Jaegap: So, uh, specifically you're asking about the kind of the mid midwife space kind of quality or, 

Payam: or, or otherwise it's general, like generally speaking and we can dive more into the midrise if you want.

Jaegap: Yeah. So I think, um. So I'm speaking of kind of English Canada. So let's say, let's start with Toronto and Ontario, um, which is very different, I would say, than French Canada, uh, and Quebec, it's, uh, some of the way that we conceptualize it, let's say city building is a little bit different, but if you think about English Canada, it's, it's very much dominant on this, this notion of having your own piece of land, your, your white picket fence, having a backyard.

And, you know, city of Toronto, if you look at historic maps have been growing as sort of [00:07:00] these individual kind of, uh, kind of ownership base, uh, lots. And they, they get sort of incrementally bigger as you go out to the suburbs. I mean, at one point, Eglinton Young and Eglinton was considered at that point, north Toronto.

That's why you have that high school North Toronto, right, right. Which that was considered north. So if you think about that, and then you know, the, the lot, uh, let's say dimensions north of that. Become slightly larger. And, and then where I am at, where I am in, in North York, which is in Willowdale, the lot size will go up to 50, 60, uh, you know, 70 feet wide.

And so it just gets incrementally bigger. And, um, so because there is this majority of the kind of the, the, the land use has been dedicated and allocated for these single detached homes that kind of, the, the focus of the development has been around the avenues around the [00:08:00] major streets, like Young Street Shepherd and Edmonton.

And Lawrence has been sort of the, where the kind of the focus of kind of new, let's say, housing supply. And, and I think because we were building so few, like new building, new new housing form, we needed to really pack the suitcase, so to speak. Mm-hmm. And invariably it took, you know, the form of multi-unit residential, but, but in, in the multi-unit residential space, um, as an office, we did a.

About a 10 year kind of investigation of supply. And if you look at the, about in 2019, so that'll be, sorry. In 2009, uh, I would say there was a supply was more equilibrium eyes like. So you have 50% of the supply in the high rise space, 50% in the, in the low like townhouse and the kind of the low rise like semi detached homes.

And over time it's been skewing more towards an apartment built form. So high rises, mid rises, and [00:09:00] so on and so forth. Until I think in the, our latest data was in 19, uh, in 2020 where about 90% of the new supply was in the kind of the high rise bill farm with an average unit, it being, you know, around 650, 600, uh, 60 square feet.

So we instinctively knew there was something not quite balanced about this. You can't, like the market certainly was not 90%, you know. Looking for 600 square feet units, but I think it just became a little bit, it, it became, housing became kind of tied to kind of, they became like financial products and so developers size them, size them to make, to able to qualify for financing and mortgage.

And, and so they had to kind of reverse engineer and uh, and work backwards. So it, there was very little discussion on livability. There was very little discussion on, you know, what makes, uh, a great, [00:10:00] uh, you know, enduring kind of unit that a growing family can and live in. There was, it was all about size and all about affordability and, and, and, and how one person can qualify for mortgage.

And I think it was a bit of a missed opportunity because we ended up with sort of less than desirable, uh, units in this space. I. 

Payam: Okay. That's, I, I couldn't agree more. That's, uh, we see a lot of those units right now on the market, and they're being, unfortunately, they're, a lot of them are vacant because, to your point, even at this point in time, despite the fact that they were, uh, they're so small and they're, they shrunken size, and these people still cannot afford to buy them.

That's a whole other discussion we can go through. But, okay. Let's go back to the Midrise side now. Right now. So like you mentioned, you and your office have designed many different, uh, midrise buildings, uh, have worked with your thing toward your team, and I'm working with your team obviously right now on one of them.

But, um, walk us through, let's say maybe the five [00:11:00] top, top five lessons learned, do's and don'ts of designing, uh, an infill mid-rise building in an urban setting. What does a successful design look like? How would you define it? 

Jaegap: So let's start with the definition of a midrise, because I think a lot of people are a little bit confused as sure as to what defines a midrise.

And, uh, if you look at the, the city of Toronto Midrise design guidelines, that was think, uh, roughly about 15 years ago. Uh, when it came out the, the height of the building was equal to the right of way of the street. So the, the entire kind of premise is that the, was that the midrise reinforces the street and the height of the midrise, at least the front wall should be 80% of the right of way.

So the right of way is, uh, 27 meters. It should be 80% of 20, uh, 80% of that, which is 21.6 mirrors. And then you do what you would do a, what we call a 45 degree setback, which invariably ended up being something in the range of six story building and then the seventh floor setback. So that [00:12:00] would be kind of a classic mid-rise definition.

And if you're right of away is 36, then you can go up to 11 stories and so on and so forth. That ceiling has been kind of blown up. Uh, the new definition as far as the city's concerned. They, they, they're considering that we can encroach substantially within net right of way. And, uh, there's a lot more leniency towards that kind of premise.

And so we're seeing 12 to 14, even 18 stories being defined as a mid-rise. 

Mm-hmm. 

Jaegap: So, so some of those definitions are a little bit, uh, different, but, but the idea, I think of the mid-rise form compared to, let's say, if you were to, let's say, compared to low rise, uh, kind of the town has living versus the high rise, it's very much about built form that really defines sort of the public realm.

So it's tight. It's tied to the kind of the street and it's a lot more, it, it, it really is kind of premise on, on creating a very engaging public realm with, uh, kind of advocacy and encouragement to do quality, let's [00:13:00] say retail grade and, um, you know, and having the kind of housing form above that. What's interesting about the mid-rise is that because you don't have to have the massive setback that you would in a, let's say, high-rise building where you need to do 12 and a half meter setback from the property lines, uh, you can go, you know, even up to a lot, line up to that six story and then another five and a half meter setback.

Beyond that, you're able to get more of, of a continuous street wall. Mm-hmm. Akin to something that you would see, let's say in Europe, like in Paris or in London, where you see more of a continuous street wall of six, seven story built form. Um, I think that was at least the initial kind of intent. You know, urban designers would say that they, they saw like some of those big, let's say avenues, um, along, um.

Or along, uh, Lawrence to have the, or or Shepherd even to have these continuous kind of built forms that create a really nice sort of street, a built [00:14:00] form to street, uh, sidewalk to road condition. So it's a, it's, it's actually a, a really great form of, um, form a a bill form because it's, it's not too tall.

Shadow impact is less, and, uh, it's a little bit more engaging to the street, which, um, I think there's, uh, definitely some pros. Uh, there are some cons, but there's hopefully a little bit more pros, uh, to that kind of bill form. It's also a little bit more kind of accessible and it, and it kind of, again, reinforces that street condition.

And I think from that, from an urban black point of view, I think that's a real benefit and a, and a positive. Um, in terms of the, and, and sorry, 

Payam: to your point, uh, you made a point about earlier about how well a city functions. The way I interpret these guidelines and the buildings that we've had the opportunity to work on is that we want to, obviously there, there are pros and cons to everything we do and doing a high-rise building or multiple high rise buildings like we have in the CBDs and the [00:15:00] downtowns and very busy areas.

Yes, it's functional. Yes, it makes a certain, uh, functions available, but at the end of the day, personally, when you walk through them at night, at seven o'clock, eight o'clock and during night, it doesn't give you the warm and fuzzy feeling of this is where I wanna spend my time. And somewhat suburbs are not too dissimilar to that feeling as well.

Like, there's just not enough, uh, density industry. There's not enough vibrancy going on on the streets. And, uh, the midrise, I think one of the premises at least is that it would allow your, it would allow the city to have that opportunity to. Uh, despite it may or may not have been successful in doing that, where, where we have done the mid rise buildings with the commercial spaces on the ground floor and trying to create that vibrancy, I have, obviously there are a lot of them that are vacant more than I think the city would've liked them to be.

But, uh, to your point, and going back to what you mentioned about the original guidelines, which resulted [00:16:00] into a lot of wedding cake style buildings, I think that's the easy way for people seeing it, was we had all these 

Jaegap: facts. Okay. That, yeah, that, that wedding cake, uh, let's say is the unintended consequence of a guideline that was meant to be a guide.

But what happened over time is that the guide became like gospel, but the bi, the guideline became bylaw. And I think that's a really unfortunate take on the intent of the, the guideline, because I think the guideline was, you know, I think, uh, was written. As, as, as well as it could of been written 15 years ago with the kind of the key understanding of, of these are the kind of the performance criteria, but it just became, um, because the, the, the urban designers didn't have any other ways to kinda enforce the policy.

The guideline became defacto a, a kind of a principle, no, actually not even a [00:17:00] principle, a kind of a rule that guided all kind of key decision making. So the kind of the, the wedding cake stepping, certainly it does impact and have, um, let's say positive impact in terms of shadows and privacy to adjacent, uh, neighborhoods.

Causes a lot of issues as it pertains to the bill form. Exactly. You know, you end up with a lower level, um, you know, bill form that are way too deep and then you end up with, you know, the, the upper level that are way too shallow and uh, uh, and then not only that. You know this better than I do. The complexity, the hoses for construction, 

Payam: 100%.

That's not only for in 

Jaegap: terms of construction, but the amount of drawings that as architects we have to do is like every floor is, is, is, uh, is unique and different. 

Payam: You lose efficiency, you lose the repeatability of the situation. The repeatability 

Jaegap: deficiency. That is, that [00:18:00] has been a disaster. Yeah. Um, but you don't have to take my word for it.

Um, you just have to look at the results. How many mid rise midrise buildings were built in the last 15, 20 years? 

Payam: Yeah, I think I, I think, I think since the guideline came up, I could be wrong, but I think I read a, um, stat somewhere that basically 10 a year, so over a 10 year period, there were maybe a hundred, 105 of these mid rises were, could have been thousand if not more, because we have that many laws that qualify for that.

Okay, so let's take that. So now we kind of did an autopsy in postmortem, if you may, of what has happened over the past 15 years. I have a lot. Right now it's a 60 foot lot, 80 foot lot. It's not a, it is not a massive lot. It's an infill urban infilled lot like the one you and I are working on right now.

Mm-hmm. And I wanna put up a mid raised buildings. Walk me through the Walkman thought process. What are the mistakes they shouldn't be making? What are the things you, I, you would warn me against? 

Jaegap: So, um, first of all, you [00:19:00] need to, um, is it on a major street or is it on a side street? Let's, lets, let's 

Payam: assume it's on a major street.

Jaegap: Okay? Let's assume it's, it's on a major street. Does it have a laneway access? Does it not have a laneway access? Take your pick. Okay. So for mid drives to be really effective, I think, uh, a laneway Sorry. Just 

Payam: before you're going on for the listeners, I want to pay attention to the train of thought that you're going through because those, that's a very key question.

Laneway or versus. Lane, we can talk about it for hours right now, but please pay attention to that. Sorry. 

Jaegap: Yeah. So, uh, laneway allows you to, uh, bring loading and parking access off of the laneway versus having a driver and a curb cup on the major street, which is discouraged, uh, from a urban design standpoint of as, as a disrupts the kind of the pedestrian flow.

It, it, uh, is also from a transportation perspective, not desirable because it stops traffic. Um, there's a lot more accidents that are going to happen as a result of, [00:20:00] you know, cars coming in and out into a major street. Uh, so it is a little bit more precarious. Uh, but I, I would say those are some of the key things you need to be look looking at.

Uh, the lot depth is important of course, but the, the, the big thing I think is the, uh, is the language, um, or major streets. The other thing I think is the right of way was what is the right of the street? Is that a 27 meter right of way? Is it a 36 meter right of way? Depending on, on, um, on what that right of, because the right of way that's existing may not be the future right.

Of way that the city has planned. Mm-hmm. So oftentimes you'll end up with this, um, lot where, you know, it's a, it's, it's existing a 24 meter right of way, but the city has plans to make it into a a 27 meter right. Weight, which means that you're gonna lose additional one and a half meter. There's gonna be a road widening being contemplated, which means that the city will appropriate that piece of land.[00:21:00] 

So your, your land de facto, you lose about one and a half meters. So those are, those are some of the things a lot of people don't consider. And, uh, they can, you can, you can shoot yourself in the foot. So you would definitely need to kind of identify that early on. Uh, typically you work with the surveyor, uh, to, to be able to get that information.

If the survey is not able to ascertain that, you definitely need to go to the city to. Talk to the right department to be able to get that information. And then the right of way will typically determine the building height, although there's a little bit more flexibility depending on the lot, your lot size to go beyond the, the right of way height.

As long as you can demonstrate that's, that it's not posing a major impact to the surrounding neighborhoods. So again, high level, I think I would start with those three. And then, uh, the other question you need be asking yourself, which is also very important is, is the laneway with the [00:22:00] existing laneway with maybe four meters, but the city will want you to maintain a six meter laneway width.

So you're gonna lose not only from the street, but also from the laneway in terms of setbacks. Um, that's also very important because, um, you know that that's gonna give you that ultimate, you know what, you can build zone side yards, uh. You do need to look at some trees. Existing trees, uh, are the tree roots within your property, within the neighbor's property.

And depending on its proximity, you may have to kind of set back or, uh, if you have a kind of an agreement with the, with the, with the neighbor, you can probably go up to lot line. But those are some discussions and some considerations you have to, um, definitely tho those are, those are very 

Payam: important points.

And, and like you said, like if you're just coming into this and you're, this is the first time going through this, the, the amount of, uh, time, money, and effort that goes into even conveying those hard pieces of your property to the [00:23:00] municipality could be substantial. That debt needs to be worked into perform a, from, even from an environmental perspective.

They, because the city will not take over something from you that's contaminated, for example. Exactly. If you're buying a, if you're buying a site, you need to pay attention. And one more thing that I'm gonna add to what you said is please. Look at the location of the fire hydrant, and please look at the location of the hydro poles, like utility poles in front of your buildings.

They will cause complications. They will cause extra costs. And I'm not gonna say half the buildings, half the properties on the city are not desirable, but you have to work them into your performer just to make sure you're not caught surprised down the road when you have to spend a significant amount of money re relocating a hydro pole or re relocating a fire hydrant or something like that.

Okay, so we've, we've gone through the site, generic high level. You and I have had that discussions about the quality of life in a building. Like now we [00:24:00] have these buildings, we want to put up a building, we know it's a mid-rise. We have general definition of it. What does Liv livability look like? How can we optimize for it?

How can we design buildings that are better places to live for people? 

Jaegap: I think. I think that is a very important and relevant question, uh, pa that you're asking is a question that as a profession, uh, we are asking ourselves every day, how do we create, because the midrise inherently, for example, at 80 foot lot that you're talking about, it's unlikely gonna be able to put windows on the sides.

So really the only way to get light is actually from the front and back of the, the building. So front meaning the, the, the, the, the base that's adjacent to the street and the, you know, the optimal depth. Uh, I would say we don't wanna exceed 25 meters. I would say that's some really extreme [00:25:00] in terms of depth, but optimally anywhere from 22, 23 to 22 meters, uh, kind of a for mid-rise building is, is actually quite good because then you get your, assuming about a two meter hallway.

You end up with about a 10 meter deep unit on either side. And, and then from a structural perspective, I, you're, you're, you're structurally area you not a structural in another life, another life and another life. Yes. So depending on what kind systems we use, uh, we like to go with about six and a half meter structurally gray.

That allows you to do kind of multiple different kind of, let's say, structural systems at, at that dimension. Anything you exceed beyond that, it, I think gets a little bit more complicated. And you really need that six and a half meter because again, a lot of this is governed by the living room, location, bedroom, and, uh, kind of the usability and, and the adjacency, which I'm [00:26:00] gonna really, really dive into a little bit more.

But, um, when you have a six and a half meter grid with 10 meter deep unit, you end up with a. 65 square meters, which translates to, I think just under seven square feet, roughly by 680 and 680 square feet. One bedroom plus den is a great starter unit. That is a, is a really decent starter unit. It's great working 

Payam: block.

You can mix and match. It's 

Jaegap: a great, it's a great working block. Um, it's a, it's a, you know, I've had friends, I visit friends who lived in a unit like that and, you know, you can actually have a small party. I definitely have friends over and it becomes a, a, a really, really decent, uh, you know, unit for a young couple or even a single person or maybe a roommate, uh, kind of a scenario.

And so I think we, when we look at projects, we really have been focusing on trying to [00:27:00] create, yes, there are external forces like the like and everything that we just discussed, but there's also. As architects and, and as designers, we cannot forget the interior designing from the inside out. And, uh, and that's super important.

And I, I don't know if you want me to go into kind of livability, but this is where I can, like, 

Payam: let's go. I'm, I'm, I can go, 

Jaegap: go super crazy. So I think we all have come to a realization that if you are living in a large city in Canada, that multi-unit, so multi-unit residential building is, is gonna be part of us.

It's certainly a part of us today. It certainly will be a part of us in the future. We, I, I, I think the reason why that's important is you want to bring more people into the city. That allows, uh, higher density, allows, uh, greater kind of [00:28:00] transit usage, uh, hopefully greater. Tax revenue so that to, to improve our public brown streets, that all also allows us, um, kind of the, to as a city, I think to function a little bit more cohesively and better and ensuring that, um, let's say our are maid, you know, community, many states or schools are, those kind of key spaces are being utilized optimally.

Um, and then businesses and retails need a certain kind of density to be able to make the numbers work. Operate. Yeah. To operate. And so the multi-unit residential bill form is, is here, um, is, uh, is here for us to say for sure. And what's really interesting about this is that how do we make, because, um, I mean you and I grew up probably, I mean, I grew up in a multi-unit residential building when I was young, you probably did that too.

But many of our listeners and probably many of our Canadians, you know, grew up in a kind of a. [00:29:00] Single detached home bungalow or, or two story building with a huge backyard and, and white pick a fence. I think that reality still exists out in the suburbs, but, um, in the, in the kind of the city core, I think we have to kind of rethink what that, uh, you know, that kind of form of, so there are, there are a couple things that are, you know, we've identified as being, you know, super important.

So let's just start from the basic units, the bedroom and the bedroom adjacencies that if you, if you just think about that are personally, we think that they're functions that, uh, natural light is important. But I think personally for me, not as important as having natural light in the kind of the living space.

So, you know, if you were to kind of, let's say I. List the, all the kind of the public rooms and the semi-private rooms. So let's say public room would be a kitchen, would be a public in, in a [00:30:00] unit, public would be a kitchen, dining room. Public would also be the living room. And those two spaces, at least for me, wants to be in a, in a location, in an area where you can enjoy the most during the day when you're using the space, right?

You're cooking, sometimes you're cooking at night for sure, but hopefully, uh, you're able to enjoy that during the day, uh, for the most part. And then the spaces where it's private, like the bedroom, like the bathroom, storage spaces, laundry, those spaces primarily as far as I'm concerned, are more kind of evening or kind of out of prime time spaces, right?

You sleep at night, you get up in the morning early. For most of us, at least, some people like to sleep in, but you know, for the most, most, most. Most of our population, you, you sleep. And the bathroom, of course, is a space that you wanna be, you don't want to be by a window so you can expose yourself. You wanna be private, right?

So the, the bathroom is a private [00:31:00] function, washing and things like that. And then the bedroom and the sleeping is also a very private function. So if you really think about the box, and then how do, let's say, place a jigsaw puzzle in a way that, let's say, um, has different kind of levels of priority light, just light space and things like that.

It's a, it's definitely a different way to think about it, but I think it's a very, very important and relevant, uh, way to think about kind of the space arrangement. The other thing that's really, really interesting, and maybe not so much in the rental purpose, but rental space, but in, it's in the more of a condo is the balcony.

So the balcony space is super interesting, but unfortunately underutilized in Canada. And the reason why the balcony is really important is. The balcony, uh, if done right, has an opportunity to create what we call this threshold space and what the threshold space is. It's not outside, [00:32:00] not fully inside, it's somewhere in the middle.

And I think what's really I why this threshold space is important is because in Canada we have, um, you know, it, it snows, it rains. And there's, especially if you're in a highrise or even in, you know, a midrise building, if you're in the 10th all floors, the, the wind and you know, it, it could be very overbearing.

True, very true. So, um, so we have been using, uh, a product balcony closure systems for, uh, a company called Luman Canada. And Luman is, uh, based out of, uh, Finland and it's, uh, it's parent companies in Finland. And what's really interesting. That if you look, if you look at some of the, uh, let's say equivalent, uh, Nordic companies like Nordic countries like Finland, Sweden, they a lot, I would say probably, and I was in Iceland last summer and I would [00:33:00] say about 80 to 90% of the kind of the mid rise buildings all had this balcony enclosure system.

It's very, very interesting. And I said, what, what, like, what is it about this balcony and the enclosure? It's super practical. It makes your unit there. There's so many different levels of benefits, but a, you have this extended three season room that, like, it's not gonna be completely heated, it's partially, it's quasi heated, but it creates a nice little threshold so you in the shoulder seasons, you can use it.

Number two is that actually creates a really nice, if you're in the, if your unit is on the south side, it creates a nice shade. So you're not, you're not getting direct light, light sometimes that's, uh, undesirable in the middle of the day. Then there's, uh, kind of the energy and sound buffer. So from an energy perspective, you're not heating your unit, your, your window unit, uh, adjacency is not Yeah, that's an important point.

Yeah. That's very important. It's not minus, it's not minus 10, minus 15 degrees. Your window adjacency is now [00:34:00] more like plus five degrees or plus 10 or 15 degrees. And so your HVAC system actually, um, there's a, there's a huge amount of savings and then the noise factor. So often these midrise buildings are located in sort of avenues and, and downtown of accords where there's a lot of traffic and there's a lot of noise.

The, the, the kind of that balcony buffer creates a super silent condition so that your, your unit is really, really quiet. And so there's a, there's those kind of benefits. And then lastly, it's like, it's this, it that you. That's, um, not like, uh, you know, oftentimes we'll see condos, you know, people just put out their bikes or garbage or, or, or, um, or different kind of uses.

They don't optimize that space. But having that enclosure system allows you to kind of, um, you know, that could become a, a gym in the morning. It could become a, uh, [00:35:00] uh, on a nice thing. It gives it some utility. It gives it some utility. Yeah. You can use it more often. Like, like a proper Exactly. Proper utility.

And it, and it just extends the life in the usability of that space. And so, you know, that threshold space is, is, uh, becomes really, really important. Uh, we talked about the proportions at six oh meter by 10 by the way, that could stretch to, you know, we're also now doing exploring units that are like 8.8 to nine meters wide.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, eight meters deep, uh, which are like super luxury. And the ben benefit of that, of forces, you end up with two bedrooms potentially facing the window. Uh, but. That's a luxury that many of our sites don't have. So I don't want to get too much into that. But, but the, the, I would say the, the, um, the other thing that's really, really important and is becoming more important is this, what we call the third space.

And what a third space I am is this. You've got your [00:36:00] home, that's your first base. You've got your war, which is the, your second space and a third space is this kind of in-between, it's a public ground. So on a multi-unit residential building, the third space is actually quite important, which we, we, we, many people identify them as many spaces.

It could be both indoor and outdoor, but the third space, it could also be your, the, the, the, the general, like let's the block in which you live in. So if you live in a block where you've got. Amazing bakery. You've got amazing coffee shop, you've got amazing libraries, or you that could potentially be your third space.

So the, the third space is space other than your unit and your work and a space that you could kind of identify. Now, why is that important? So if, let's say you have a building in a great location where there's tons of amens, like the annex, [00:37:00] you may not need to build a massive indoor man space or outdoor man space with the mans on the street.

But if you happen to be in a location where that Amen doesn't exist, you may want to consider making that up by creating kind of a, a communal space within the building where people in the, you know, the, the residents can come together, but also the outside people can come and you can meet, have a conversation, maybe birthday parties or, or, or, or, um, some event that you wanna celebrate.

Having that space with adjacency to some kind of an outdoor space becomes, uh, very important. So as a developer, you may, you may be making those kind of nuanced decisions depending on where the, the site is located at. I think that is gonna become, you know, even more important. Right now, the city of Toronto, it's generic, two square meters per unit per right.

Indoor and then another two square meters per outdoor [00:38:00] space. But I think that's, that's a little bit misguided because I think you, that is the point needs to be tailored. Right. And 

Payam: so I wanted do a quick recap of on what we've talked about so far. And by all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but my, like, this is how I'm understanding this evolution path or movement is that basically somewhere around, along the way we lost that whole feeling of the old school main street of a small town where everyone knew where to go and get together.

Our attempts at, or someone's attempt introducing these mid rises with the commercial space, the ground floor is somewhat to recreate that. Obviously it's not gonna happen overnight, it will not. It'll need synergy. It needs momentum for many of them happen in the same area to be able to bring back to public just enough capacity, enough density for people to come back.

So we're basically trying to revive reenergize a neighborhood that kind of [00:39:00] maybe has run outta gas a little bit by introducing these ones. Obviously it helps the supply side for the housing crisis and it needs to meet some of the demand. But I guess that then I get we're taking it a little bit further, and I think this is what I'm reading between lines, is that okay, you are gonna do a meris building, try to do a livable meris building because that's at the end of the day, if you.

Allowing for a family to stick around in a building for 10, 15 years, that's the family that is gonna grow ties to that community downstairs, that this downstairs on this store that's on the ground floor or the next room or the next building, or the next building or next per, and this all brings together.

Whereas I totally agree with what you said earlier that unfortunately, and I, I can't really judge that this has been just the, the reality of situations that for the past 10 years, the mortgage rates, interest rates and how, what you can get on a lending basis that has been the deciding factor. Like how big do you make the units like we are working on units that are as small as a 330 square feet a [00:40:00] unit, which is right, not optimal.

It's, it's a transition period in someone's life. So by definition you don't expect a person there to live for too long, hopefully not for five, 10 years. They're gonna probably going through something that they need smaller housing and then that, that type of living and transition doesn't necessarily help Vibe is of the neighborhood.

Does that make sense? 

Jaegap: Oh, uh, absolutely. I think you definitely need the kind of the diverse range of kind of housing typologies. And, you know, one of the things that we're seeing as a, um, as a pattern, which is actually quite encouraging by, is that as we, as we see a lot of our clients, I'd say pivot from a purposeful, I mean from a condominium ownership to purposeful rental, is that, is that the, the, they're revisiting the unit and the unit mixes and sizes and they're, they are becoming a little bit bigger, slightly higher percentage of the two bedrooms because, um, studies have shown that residents [00:41:00] are, are, are more likely to say long term if you provide them, you know, a quality two bedroom unit versus a, you know, like a shoebox, uh, in the sky.

And so we're seeing a little bit more proclivity to doing something a little bit more. Livable, slightly larger. And, uh, and a lot of developers are getting creative, uh, in, in that kind of approach. And then, um, so these buildings, especially if you've got the right unique mix, are becoming sort of exactly what you said, small neighborhoods.

They're small communities. And if we created an opportunity for more people to mingle, to connect, it really becomes, um, meaningful because people want and desire that kind of connection. But you have the architecture and the built form has to provide opportunities for those things to happen. Like, for example, you know, if you think about, let's say the entry and the [00:42:00] entry sequences and, and when you come into the building, how do you, you know, is it, is it just you go straight to the elevator and you, you know, and you, you go and check your mail and you go off, right?

Or are there opportunities for you to kind of gather, pause, maybe. Meet a friend or more, or maybe you're seeing another neighbor, you know, leaving and, and so you're able to have those one moments. The other thing is like hallways, corridors, you know, these double loaded corridors, so boring, right? You come out of the elevator and they, you know, it's like, it's like you doing this trek, you get to 

Payam: it almost, it almost feels like we have optimized a little bit too much, if that makes sense.

Like we have to create to being a little bit less efficient. Create, create inefficiencies in the system that would allow a little bit better quality. A little bit. Yeah. 

Jaegap: Yes. Like for example, when I was in Iceland, uh, last year, I was at a hotel where the corridor, it was a double loaded corridor, but they had windows that the architect had created.

[00:43:00] These, uh, it's a hotel and lots of land. So they had created these little cracks in the volume so that you could have windows and light coming through the side. They also of views on the end of the corridor, so they, we had an opening, so these are. Again, these are luxury because, uh, those spaces are, um, super valuable.

Uh, but the corridor doesn't have to be so straight. You can also create some, some variations in terms of the width, uh, and some, potentially some pockets. Like having 2.4 meters in front of the elevator is a must, but even a little bit more sometimes to be able to have maybe a bench, maybe a piece of art so that, you know, you could someone just 

Payam: sit down and have a quick chat with the what, the neighbor.

Exactly. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. 

Jaegap: So again, these are, um, the public realm and the spaces and the way we articulate them I think is gonna be very, very important. The other thing that we're seeing, and this is, you know, and this is the other interesting thing that only you can do in a [00:44:00] mid-rise, maybe even a quasi high-rise building, is buildings that attract kind of people of similar backgrounds.

Like, not, not ethnically, I'm talking about like people different stage in life, for example, like we're doing a whole bunch of co-living, right. And what's interesting about co-living is that it's really designed for interaction and community. So there's a very generous amount of, uh, indoor, many outdoor, many spaces being provided gardens.

Again, opportunities for people to meet and to, because it's mostly for young people. And what do young people wanna do? I mean, they, they want to, um, uh, they want to network or work, but also network for friendships and relationships and, uh, and, and so those become, I mean, if you think about it, you got the seniors in the retirement home, right?

Which is all about, it's pretty much the same thing. It's pretty much the same thing. It's, it's different. It's kind of, it's retire home that's designed for, you know, young people, different kind of generation. And uh, and it's really interesting how, [00:45:00] um, like, you know, there's lots of examples of co-living that are, you know, super successful in the US and I think we're assigned to do the first series here in Canada.

So be really interesting to see, um, to study that after it's built. So I think that's what the kind of the midrise creates that opportunity for, again, these, the, these, the, these, um, kind of interactions. 

Payam: And I can hear in the background, uh, some of our clients are probably listening to this and they're thinking, you know what?

My FSI, my efficiency ratio is gonna fall in that. And they're right. They're right. Like I, I totally agree with what you said, but, uh, there are, there's, there are, I'm, I'm sure there are places that you can do that. Like we had on this podcast we had Jonathan Diamond from Well-Grounded Real Estate, uh, where they are working on a building and they have a single loaded corridor with a central, uh, area or central yard in their building that they were working.

It's not the most efficient, but he was, and his team were very keen on the [00:46:00] quality of the building and the long term effect, like you mentioned, like, 'cause it's a rental building, they want people to be there for like 10, 20, 15, 20 years. And that's what they're optimizing for versus. In a condo where you're optimizing for every, every inch pretty much.

Right? So I want to move, uh, forward a little bit. We have a question on this podcast. We ask our ask our guests, and that is, if the Genie showed up tonight and gave you the magic wand, so J Gbb can make one wish or maybe two if you're, if he's being generous and that wish. But the only conditions that that wish should help move us in the right direction with the issues we have with housing crisis, affordability crisis, and also the quality of life.

Let's, let's add that to the next. What would that It's 

Jaegap: one wish, right? One, one wish. Okay. 

Payam: If, if you're, if you're, if you wanna negotiate, we can give you two, but Okay. Let's start with, uh, 

Jaegap: let's, let's start with one. Okay. So that, that, that is [00:47:00] easy for me because I've been thinking about this for a long time.

And that's, um, so to get the desired form of housing. We know what those are. You know, I think a lot of people like larger midrise, you know, kind of built form. There has to be kind of a collective consensus and a buy-in from the, from the city. And, uh, you know, once we all kind of the majority agree yet, this is the kind of housing we need, they need to create a path.

And I'm talking about the municipality. You need to create a path to get from A to B. A is the sign. Point B is permit ready. They need to create a highway, not a securous, laneway, you know, up and down. They need to create an eight lane or 10 lane highway from A to B that says if you meet these criteria, you get automatically building permit.

And it's, it's, it's halfway between a kind of a pre-approved permit to these are the criteria. This is the criteria to get from A to B. You need to do this and [00:48:00] you are like guaranteed approval. So certainty, certainty is very important in this business. If we can create that path, and I've said this to the Citi as well, I think that would be a game changer.

It does three things. One is I think we're gonna develop, so if it becomes, if it becomes a shoe in to get from A to B, it's gonna do three things. One is it's gonna create, uh, we are going to improve the, from the construction and delivery side because we know it's gonna be this dimension, this dimension, it's gonna be straight up excursion, X, Y, Z.

We can, we're gonna, we can streamline a kind of a construction procurement system that really optimize with that kind of bill form number one. So I think there's gonna be a lot of, lot of, uh, let's say creativity that happens in that side. And then b, it's going to, uh, from a financing side, because the lenders like to seek certainty a hundred percent reduces the risk.

Banks like to see. [00:49:00] It just reduces the risk. And, uh, so the le the lender's like, okay, got it. You bought this site, we're gonna do A to B, uh, A to Z and and A to B, and we know it's gonna be this much cost. It's, we know it's gonna be this, this, this, and it's gonna be done within whatever, 12 to 18 months.

This is, uh, this is the financial project that, and then the third one, which is likely think where everybody's gonna win, is it's gonna reduce the cost of delivering these units. It's gonna be, you're gonna get cheaper fees from architects, from engineers, from builders, from everybody, because we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

And so that would be, that would be the one my wishlist. Yeah. Is there Number two, unfor, unfortunately, uh, you know, everybody that I've spoken to at the city and you know, and uh, the sort of specialty groups, they kind of chuckle because they know that. It'll never happen. 

Payam: You never know. We've [00:50:00] had, we've had, this has come up more than I would like it to.

This issue has come up multiple times. Yeah. In the podcast. And uh, I think it was Mike Vernick on one of the episodes that he mentioned, like, we almost need the housing czar that can have a very large scissor and start writing, cutting these tapes and red tapes and just move forward. And that's it. And one thing you just mentioned that, which makes a hundred percent sense to me, is that traditionally the way the financing people, 'cause at the end of the day, if the financing feels comfortable, then we're gonna have hundreds of projects going.

And the way that the finance people have been given that comfort has been through, let's do sales, let's get 65% sales, let's get 75% sales, depending on the project they perform on equity and balance. Mm-hmm. And everything else. But essentially if we put that onus, instead of putting it on the sales side, if we put it on the municipality side, where municipality has the guarantee that this project is between 12 to 18 months per se, that [00:51:00] this is gonna be going ahead.

Like there's no 18 months, there's not 60 months, it's 12 to 18. Right? It's one way or another that put the financier on, uh, on, in a more comfortable situation to say, you know what? I can deal with this. I can, I know what my return on investment is. I know my payback period is, and, uh, I think that would, that, I think that's a effect that is somewhat underestimated.

I'm happy you brought it up. That's, that's good. 

Jaegap: It, it, it, it's streamlined the process so that there's, it's not, um, you know, at this point right now, every, let's say plans, examiner's intake planner has their own inter petition. The learning by law, the individual planner will go, has their own, and then the urban designer has their own kind of.

Let's say, uh, issues regarding the bill form and the design, and they can comment on every single one of those. And, you know, you end up getting this, uh, cacophony of different kind of inputs from different departments because one, one district in, in Toco [00:52:00] says this and the other, you know, district in North York and Dale says that, and depending on the who the counselor is and the like, it, it, there's, there's nothing, there's nothing logical or standard about that.

It's the opposite. And this is what creates delays. This is what to the cost and it, and it makes it very, very difficult. Um, the, the, the second wishlist would be if we can, um, figure out how to, um, you know, build, uh, a better kind of transportation infrastructure in a quicker way. You know, I I, I'm from South Korea and, and, and I was there in the eighties.

We had I think 35 subway stops. In 1980, uh, I was there two years ago and they had 900 and, sorry, they had, uh, I think something like 980 subway stops in the greater Seoul area. So you go from 35 to 980 in like, in a matter of 30 [00:53:00] years. And subway construction in Canada is one of the most expensive in the world.

I don't know why, but it is. So, you know, when you have the proper, when the city makes the proper investment, but this is not, this is not just about putting money. I think it's the entire culture, the culture of, of, of building in Canada is a little bit different than the rest of the world, and I think haven't done a deep dive.

But I think, um, the way that I know, the way that it works, uh, from the little investigation there, there, the, there is a, like a subway czar in Korea, there's a whole separate department. Irre, regardless of who comes into power. You could have different counselors, different that subways are discontinues on.

This is my mandate. I don't get, there's no pushback from the, from the counselors. There's no pushback from the politicians. This is completely independent of the political process. We're gonna do this, we're gonna build this. We have a [00:54:00] mandate to do whatever a thousand, you know, stops and we're just gonna keep running with it.

And the, the thing about that is that you get the people that become experts in that field. The builders become experts. The investment that they have in the equipment, like the whole drilling and the all, all that is, all these are all investments. And, and you, you carry it out. It's, you're not, you don't, there's no start, stop, start, stop, store that equipment somewhere else.

You have a co consistent 

Payam: will. There's, it's not a seasonal political will. 

Jaegap: It's not a seasonal political thing. It's just the community has accepted this is what we need. We're gonna just keep running and we're gonna keep making progress every year. And I think. You know, um, so over 30 years, I mean, when they started in eighties, in 1980s, they were probably making some mistakes.

And they had to, you know, get a joint venture from Germany and from, you know, USA and from England, right, for the technology. But now they've become world experts. And I think there's something about, you know, doing things consistently steady. You, you [00:55:00] obviously become better at it, you know, over 30 years and, and you get it done.

And the benefit, the beneficiary, the beneficiary is the residents, right? 'cause now, um, traffic doesn't have to be so congested. People don't have to rely always on, you know, driving cars. There's the, the infrastructure ends up, you know, paying for itself. And then, um, you know, and then the residents, uh, uh, really enjoy it.

I mean, you look at all the big global cities, uh, around the world, like whether it's London or, or Paris. I mean, you couldn't have those cities without the proper. Transportation. Yeah, transportation infrastructure. It 

Payam: kind of goes in hand, hand in hand. It almost feels like if you don't do it that way, which unfortunately has been the case here to some extent, you are almost creating the Frankenstein monster where you have different parts from different creatures and it's just not necessarily jiving together.

And it, it's interesting you brought that up because a few weeks ago was at an event and a friend of mine brought this stats, uh, [00:56:00] research up, which I can look it up and post in show notes, is that basically to your point, that the, the access to public transportation alone has the biggest effect on the quality of life for individual, especially in the urban areas and has the biggest impact on, on equal access to opportunities.

Like if you are in a, in an area which you can step downstairs, get on a bus or a train or a subway, and within 15 minutes you can be at a ballet center or, or your university or, or workplace for that matter. That gives you far more chances of success in that society versus if you have to have a car insurance, pay for gas drive for 45 minutes, may or may not get to the in time, and that's the whole thing.

And add to that winter and minus 30 and one meters of snow. Right, exactly. So that's, that's a very key point. 

Jaegap: Yeah. And I know this, this isn't, uh, a topic on, uh, public transportation. But then the other thing is when you have proper [00:57:00] public infrastructure, now you can toll the highways. You can toll the roads because driving them becomes a luxury.

And the people should be, should have the right to drive. Yes, absolutely. But people should have the right to drive. But you pay a fee so that you can maintain the road systems and, and probably a little bit of the public infrastructure as well, because the cost of of, of moving people through a public transportation system versus individually.

I, again, somebody should do a, a quick analysis. I would, I would imagine it's a lot higher if you think about the, the road, the maintenance of snow shoveling the 

Yeah. You 

Jaegap: know, all the potholes that gets created and all the patching of the potholes and all of that. Uh, again, a all for individual freedom and Right.

Just within the urban core. If Toronto wa were to become a global city, then it needs to have those kind of, kind of the right infrastructure in place to become a global city. And it, those are, 

Payam: those are like [00:58:00] peers basically. Those are parts of holding this thing together. Those are the peers Yes. That making it Yes.

Uh, global city that can compete with, uh, likes of those cities and around the world. Uh, this has been great, Jacob. I, uh, Jacob, I really appreciate this. Is there anything that I haven't asked you or any final parting thoughts that you might wanna share with the audience here? 

Jaegap: No, but I, I did have a question for you, Anne, because I know you're a builder.

Sure. And, uh, the, the thing that I want to ask you is that. Construction costs has been, uh, steady, steadily going up. It certainly hasn't gone down even, even though, you know, some of the, uh, the housing shortages, I mean, even though construction has, let's say, slowed down substantially over the last, uh, let's say six to 12 months, where do you see the industry moving?

Like, w like is because, you know, is it like, you know, we have companies that have attempted, like [00:59:00] TER and few others in the US have attempted, do all Asian, you know, pre, uh, preassembled components and parts. We have companies that are also entertaining, sort of, uh, preassembled, you know, CLT frames and, and, and, uh, and panels like some of the companies that you're currently using.

We. Abundance of wood, uh, compared to most of the people, most of the countries in the world. We have an abundance of, uh, many different things, but it seems like we're, uh, we're struggling to build with quality. And, and with, I I heard that there's a, like major droves of let's say, people leaving the industry, like in the trades, for example.

Like where do you see the future of, you know, construction in, in Canada? 

Payam: That's, that's, that's a, that's a very good and loaded question. Big question. And I, I rarely get asked questions on this podcast, but I'm gonna try my best. [01:00:00] The so, but you're absolutely right. So I would, I would break it down in from multiple perspectives.

One is, at the end of the day, people who work in construction industry, they're people at the end of the day, inflation affects them. The cost of the affects them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So like, we're, right now, we're about the time that typically every few years we have strikes in construction industry. Sometimes rightfully, sometimes a little bit too much.

But anyways, just there's a reason that we need to protect people who work in the construction. Like at the end of day, if, if the inflation was 6% and you only got 1% that year in terms of ray raise and a pay increase, then there's a gap. Your, your, your basket is getting smaller, your grocery shop is getting a poorer, right?

So that, I don't think that's, we, we can expect that portion to go away. There was a hype, we were witnessing a lot of hype and a little bit greed and gouging due to covid and a whole bunch of logistic issues between somewhere between 21 to 2021 to 23. I would [01:01:00] say a lot of that has gone, and I would agree with you in terms of the systems and the prefabrication.

So I personally believe that we have pretty much no choice other than going toward the prefabrication. Going toward the MO modular, going to through the automation and, uh, offsite construction, if you might, if you want to call it, right, that I think is inevitable. The catches, it's really hard. The catches, it's super hard to make it work.

And I also wanna say it's hard for a reason and for good reason despite, I, I, if you had asked me this question two years ago, I would've given you a different answer. We are old doc who has trouble learning new tricks, which I hate for a long time. But now I've become to appreciate because what we, what you and I put on a piece of paper today and what you put on a piece of paper today and I build on site, the ramifications of that might not show up until 2, 3, 5, 10 years from, [01:02:00] and if fixing that, at that point, you know this better than I do.

That fixing an acoustic issue with a floor that was not properly designed, day one is gonna cost you normal leg. God forbid it's a structural issue. God, God forbid it's a leaky condo situation like we had in Vancouver, right? Mm-hmm. So it's, it is somewhat of a good thing that the industry is slow in picking up every shiny new object.

So I actually appreciate that. Mm-hmm. But on the flip side, I think the, the, the, the examples that you mentioned, uh, one of the challenges has been many of these, in many of these innovations, at least the ones that I've been witnessing, witnessing or saw, is that they didn't come from the grounds up. In other words, if you have a siding company who's been doing business and all of a sudden their r and d comes up with a better product, a better automated version of doing things, that to me is 110% preferable to going to someone [01:03:00] who just developed a new siding product up in an r and d lab in the university.

Which could be a million times better. It could be a million times greener, it could do function much better. Mm-hmm. But taking that product, putting it until, to a point to that you can get it into hands of many people who can install it. That's a five year process if you're lucky enough to survive.

Right. So it, I guess I'm going in circles here as well. To answer your question. I would try and bring these r and ds, these ideas into existed proven systems and backbones and then try and promote it there. And then at that point you have a chance of not, not building, I I, I did a full episode on this a few episode back at, and I kind of put it this way, that don't invent a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

A lot of things that we see in the market is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Because you can make something, just doesn't mean that you actually should make it. 'cause it doesn't really help anything. [01:04:00] Very, 

Jaegap: very, very astute. Very interesting. 

Payam: Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I think that's the question, but if, to answer your question, I don't think there's any escaping prefabrication automation or offsite construction.

The extent of it, I'll let you know when I find out. Is that fair? 

Jaegap: Sounds great. That's a good way to end that. Thanks finance. 

Payam: Thank you very much. I very much appreciate you interviewing me on my own podcast. That was, that was a good change and uh, thank you very much. I very much appreciate your time and who knows, in a couple years maybe we do a round two of this and see if we've made any progress and, uh, have a great evening.

Jaegap: Appreciate it. Thank you so much for the conversation. Really appreciate 

Payam: it. Thank you. Just one last thing before you leave, we've created a document called Real Estate Development Toolbox, which you can download for free from our website@realestatedevelopmentinsights.com. This document is basically the result of us asking our network and our listeners, [01:05:00] what is the top tool that you use on a daily basis to keep yourself, uh, aware of information that's going on in the industry that changes the trends, the technologies, the regulations, and or if you, the tools that you use to make sure that you deliver quality results to your clients and customers, the tools that help you with productivity in what you do, and also any softwares, specialized softwares that, uh, you think are useful to share with others.

So if you think there are resources that you're using on a daily basis and you would like others to know about them, please make sure to let us know and we will make sure to include it in the next, next iteration of this toolbox. Thank you very much, and I hope you find this document useful.