(53) Why Better Buildings Start With Structure, Not Finishes - Stuart Wilson - Alterra Development

In this episode of the Real Estate Development Insights Podcast, Stuart Wilson, President of Alterra Developments, shares his path from Scotland (quantity surveying and construction management) to Hong Kong civil projects and then Canada, where he joined Alterra about 10 years ago after planning a move into development. He explains that value engineering should focus on structural efficiency rather than cutting visible finishes, arguing that buyers and renters value tactile elements like flooring, kitchens, and fixtures.

Stuart discusses Alterra’s emphasis on integrity, design quality, and “city building,” and contrasts condos—often driven by investors and characterized by shrinking unit sizes—with purpose-built rentals, where long-term ownership demands greater attention to operations, layouts, and livability. He details Alterra’s CreateTO partnership and advises developers to approach CreateTO with a social lens, meticulous diligence, and strong legal support. He reflects on the challenges of building the Ace Hotel during COVID, stresses rigorous proforma knowledge, calm problem-solving, and partner selection based on trust, then calls for more predictable costs and criticizes escalating fees and development charges that undermine project viability.

• Why Become a Developer
• Optimism Versus Risk
• Spend on What Matters
• Alterra Values and Integrity
• Rentals Versus Condos
• CreateTO Affordable Housing
• Bidding and RFP Advice
• Unlocking Nonprofit Projects
• Choosing the Right Partners
• ACE Hotel Challenge
• Framework for Daily Crises
• Optimism and Better Homes

 #RealEstateDevelopment #TorontoRealEstate #GTARealEstate #HousingDevelopment  #UrbanDevelopment  #PurposeBuiltRental  #AffordableHousing #RentalHousing
 #HousingSupply #MixedIncomeHousing #RentControlledHousing  #CreateTO 

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Transcript

Stuart Wilson - Interview

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Can you just do me a favor? Can you click on my face? On your screen? It says, it says App is not in focus. Perfect. Okay. Thank you. [00:00:00] Good morning, Stuart. Welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Good morning. Thank you for having me. I'm, I'm very well. Nice weekend. I'm nice, nice and relaxed. I've had my, uh, yoga and I've had my tennis.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Awesome. That's a great start to it, a great day, hopefully. Um, can you please introduce yourself to our audience? Tell us a little bit about your background, and we go from there.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Absolutely. My name is Stuart Wilson. I am the President of Alterra Developments. Uh, I am not many of your listeners, probably not from Canada. So I started off in. Scotland, uh, I studied in Glasgow. I quantity surveyor. I also have a master's degree in construction management, uh, from Glasgow. I went to Hong Kong.

I spent three years in Hong Kong working on large civil projects. Um, really enjoyed it, probably out of my depth. Uh. One of the funny stories about that was, uh, we were doing this large underground station in Hong Kong, and it was only about 20 years later that I realized that the thing was so over-designed.

'cause it ended up being the [00:01:00] foundation for 120 story tower. That's how

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: It only took 20 years.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: So I came to, I came to Canada in 1999. Uh, I worked as a quantity surveyor with Hellier, which became Altus Group. Uh, leading the charge down there. enjoyed it. And, uh, I joined Altaire Developments about 10 years ago.

Went from chief operating officer to president, I'm in charge of, uh, really all operations, uh, both the business side and the technical side.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Fantastic. Thank you for the intro. Uh, why to jump, did you get bored going through numbers and seeing people, other people making money? Was that the reason?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Joined, do you want the real answer?

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Uh, no. Please tell me a lie.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: I, uh, I'd actually always wanted to be a developer. Um, I, I'd wanted to move several years before that, but we, uh, my wife and I agreed some financial targets and when we hit those, uh, first phone call I made was to Rob Cooper, who's our CEO, and I haven't looked back since.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: So it, so it was a planned move, and it seems to be a common planned move. I know. Uh, Marlon Bra, [00:02:00] our previous guest here on this podcast, he made this move recently, not too far ago. And, um, it's, I guess it, the, the background really helps with the new role.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: I, I think it's a challenging. Move to make, to be a chronic surveyor, you typically have to be fairly conservative. I think to be a developer you have to be fairly optimistic. So to go from one to the other is not common. And I know Marlon very well. In fact, we were texting over the weekend. It, it's a difficult jump, but you, you have to just, I am naturally fairly optimistic, so it, it possibly wasn't quite as difficult for me.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: How can you share some tricks with that? Because I know on this, on this side of the table, as a project manager, as a construction manager, you're always thinking about risk. You're thinking about flagging risk. Dealing with it at different stages, and like you said, it makes optimism a little bit unnatural or at least less practiced.

Do you have any tricks or skills that can help the transition?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: I don't think there's any tricks. I mean, ultimately there, there is. [00:03:00] There is money to be made in, in every business and development is no different. I, I think understanding how the component pieces come together, how the jigsaw puzzle is built is really important because within, there's, within the line items of, of every budget, there's probably a hundred soft cost items and probably 200 hard cost items. There are places to save money and there are places to spend money. And I, I, I think it's that balance of spending in the right places, saving in the right places, and trying to build a great product. So let me jump into that for a second 'cause it is really

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Please do.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: quite a bit of my time focusing on this.

So one of the things that frustrates me is where people try and save money. So, you know, we're all human beings. If you're, if you're moving into an apartment or you're moving into a condo, or you're moving into a house, the areas that you enjoy, the things that you enjoy are what you can see in front of you.

The, the tactile things, the things that give you design pleasure. So [00:04:00] are those items? It's your flooring, it's your finishes, it's your. Your door hardware, your doorknobs, your kitchens, your bathrooms, uh, everything that you interact with, your light fixtures. So if you look at your average hard cost budget, probably about six or 7% of it is gonna be the finishes, the things you can actually enjoy. Uh, your taps another one. So nothing upsets me more than when we get to the point in the project where we're trying to value engineer. And some genius comes up with the idea of doing cheaper flooring or cheaper. Bathroom vanities or cheaper taps. That's just not where you should be spending money.

You've already lost the battle at that point. You know, we spend a lot of our time here looking at the structure. If you focus on your structure as part of your first design stage. Even before the architects involved, or at least hand in hand with the architect, if you can start with your structural framing move out from that point, you, you have a good chance of winning the war. no [00:05:00] purchaser has ever walked into one of our developments and said, my goodness, it feels, it feels so solid. I mean, how much, how much rebar have you put behind these walls? It just doesn't come up. There's a basic understanding that the building will not fall down, so. If you can save x million of dollars on your form work and your rebar and your concrete through smart design, then you can at the very least not try and value engineer the finishes, but actually enhance the finishes, make, um, you know, better lobbies, better math, these things that people will feel proud to, to actually engage with in their building. So there's one of

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: I, I, I love that answer by the way. I come from a structural engineer background, and one of the things that many times we talk to our clients or, uh, even. Internally on the projects that I've had the privilege on working on is that, let's figure out the structure first, and sometimes in advance of actually hiring the architect.

Sometimes we have, like I know there has been in instances that we'd had to choose the right architect based on the type of structure we wanted to use and kind of line things [00:06:00] out. Uh, when. We less conventional type of structures that we've used. We'd have, we've had to get creative. And to your point, when you look at the performer, and when you look at the, not the performer, look at the hard cost budget of a structure of a, of a project, at least in these midrise type projects, your structure, direct cost could be somewhere between 25, 30, maybe 35%, depending on what systems you're using.

Indirect cost of the wrong or right structure, like you mentioned, it has significant effect. Like these days on these smaller buildings, we have a lot of conversation about wood and mass timber, which are great products in different scales. But then you, some, some people tend to forego the additional costs that you have to incur when it comes to fire readings, seasonalities, acoustics and everything else that goes into using those products.

And uh, but it is an indirect concept of the structure, so. I very much appreciate you bringing that, that up. Um, let's talk about Altera for a second. The, the principles that you just mentioned in terms of finishes and the structure and value engineering, [00:07:00] Altera has been around 50 years, right? More than five decades.

You've had hundreds of different projects. Are those some of the core principles before behind the success of the company as a whole, or are those some things that you're trying to bring into the business?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: I'd say probably a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. Um, you know, I can't, I can't really speak to the, the four decades that came before me. I will say the success of the business, from what I can see is, is really one of of integrity. I, I think the principles, before I arrived, Robin, Richard Cooper, you know, built a business based on, you know, honesty, good design, good product, and I think that that carries a long way. You know, they have a good reputation and in fact. When I was ready to move to development, that's why I phoned Rob. You know, I think I, I, I dealt with many, many clients over the years. Vast majority of whom were, you know, honest, good, decent people. I think certain developers, uh, you know, had a bit of a reputation, uh, the other way.

And I think it was really important for me [00:08:00] to land in a, a company that had strong integrity, dealing with consultants, dealing with their lenders, dealing with their customers. Um. I think one of the things, it's not just value engineering, but I think that the product that that we build is really important.

You know, I think we are, we are all in the business of city building, so we have an obligation to, you know, our fellow citizens to our children to try and leave something that's a little bit better than we found it. So I. I get a lot of compliments on some of the buildings that we've built. Uh, I, I often joke that just shows you the lack of control we have over our architects and our design team. But the fact is, you know, we are at the table with the design team. We hire architects who have a strong design ethic, who, who build excellent buildings. And I think it's really important. have three daughters and it's really important to me that when we. You know, when I take them around the projects that, um, you know, they're actually proud of what their father is doing.

And I think that translates into the whole city building a ethos. So alter's success really is, is a [00:09:00] combination of many things, but really just trying to do the best that we can in every situation. And of course, that doesn't mean gold toilets and putting diamonds on the outside of buildings, but do you know, doing the right thing from start to finish is important.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: So would with that principle, and I know obviously over the past few years there has been a lot of change in the market situation and a lot of people, and I I believe you guys are including that trend that are, uh, exploring PBRs and purpose-built rentals versus condos. Is there any difference the way you look at the two products, are there defining or groundbreaking rules that you use in one and not the other?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: It's an excellent question and very pertinent to where we are in the market right now. So, I, I think the condo market has been on steroids for 25 years. You know, since I arrived in 1999, we've built, I, I believe, four or 500,000 condos in the GTA, uh, a staggering amount. Um. I, the difference though, for me, that I'm really [00:10:00] enjoying is, I, I think the condo market in general got to a point where, as a, as an industry, we had maybe sacrificed a certain, I wouldn't say quality, but I think, you know, we'd focused on smaller units, we'd focused less on what human beings need. opposed to what the investor market was asking us to produce. So the nice thing about moving to Purpose-built rentals is that the, the, the thought process is similar but slightly different. And the key characteristic is time we look at a suite layout, every time we look at a lobby, every time we look at a Met is every time we look at back of house, we're looking at it with the lens of having to operate and own this long term.

So. A good example is, you know, how does the mail room work? How does the parcel room work? How does the bag of house garbage work? Fairly boring and mundane items. But the fact is, if, if we're gonna have to hire staff to deal with all those items in the future. I'm not saying that there, that we didn't think about it before, but the fact is it was gonna be somebody else's [00:11:00] problem.

Um, as, as someone that was running a condo and, and of, you know, we, we always did the right thing. We never cut corners in that regard, but I think that extra level of focus to make sure that. Everything is thought through. When, when I'm visually walking myself on plans through that lobby, uh, you know, I'm, I'm really understanding how it feels as a, as a renter to be part of that wait times and elevators.

How they interacting with the empty space. Is there sweet, large enough? Uh, is there enough room to eat dinner? Is there enough room to sit and watch tv? enough room for friends to be over? And I think as a result of that, we are building, we're going to be building better buildings, we're gonna be designing better buildings. And I think in the future, the condo market will benefit from lessons that we're all teaching ourselves. Building rental apartment buildings.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: To your point, I think what happened when we were building all these condos, we, and we've talked about this on this podcast. That we were building a financial product. It was not much different than a package ETF that you can buy on a stock exchange with [00:12:00] obviously with not that simplicity, but with that mentality that you want to pick up something that you can easily sell to the next person after the investor.

And um, yeah, got us into trouble to some source. And right now in the PBR, you have to think about it. And I like. This saying, and I, I'm hoping I'm, I get this right. I think it was Brandon Whitit from Import Development. We had him on the podcast and he said that, uh, the difference on the PBR side is that you're gonna have to sell it a hundred times, potentially, hopefully not, but a hundred times potentially.

You have to sell it versus you build a condo and you sell it once on a piece of paper with black line drawings, which are, have whole bunch of disclaimers in terms of this could be. This could not be exactly what you get at the end, but when you have the obligation or division that you're gonna walk people year after year through the building, through the unit, like you said, the importance of the finishes, the layouts, the workability, uh, the, the moving room, the garbage room, all those become very, very important.

Um. With that note, I wanna switch gears. I want to go [00:13:00] to, um, somewhat of a unique experience that I know you guys have at Alterra, and you and I had a chat briefly offline about your engagement with Create Tio. There is that create to, and maybe I asked you to elaborate a little bit more, but basically my understanding is that create to, as part of Sierra Toronto is trying to unlock.

Dozens of sites in city and, uh, create affordable housing of different layers, different tiers, and you guys were one of the pioneers in engaging with them in great deal programs. I believe it's on Wilson area, Wilson Avenue, if I'm not wrong.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Vic Park, Victoria

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Vic Park. Sorry. Vic Park, uh, area. And then, yeah, please walk us through that.

What are the lessons learned? What are the challenges? What can others learn from what you've been through?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Well, it's a lot to, to unpack. Um, So first of all, um, there, there's too many people at create t to mention. Um, we've had, uh, a very positive experience with, with create TI would say over the last three years. We got involved with 'em six years ago, we, we actually pre [00:14:00] c. We're awarded, uh, the 7 7 7 Vic Park project. And it was a challenge. You know, I think COVID, the economics were upside down. Um, rents were down, costs through the roof, so we had a real challenge trying to figure out how this project was, was going to. To come to life. There was a changing of the guards at Create to, we were kind of banging our heads up against the brick wall for a while. Um, I think there was a suggestion that we, we may have been taking advantage, which really wasn't the case. The fact is the economics had changed, Uh, Vic Gupta and his team came in and honestly, they are. Top class, world class, they really understand and care about the product that they're trying to bring and the changes they're trying to bring to the city of Toronto. Not saying that we didn't have our fun and games along the way, trying to get to the right answer and the right solution, but it was done, uh, with respect. It was done, uh, with pragmatism and, um, I'm extremely happy with the relationship that we developed with these people. Um, so together [00:15:00] we're. You know, we're unlocking a city, uh, green pea parking lot. We're gonna be creating, uh, two very distinct products. Uh, the first is the most important for the city. 256 units of affordable housing. do a 10,000 square foot. Daycare, uh, which is much, much needed in the city, um, to decide of that and distinct from the affordable housing component is gonna be, uh, 449 units of, uh, luxury rental. And these projects can absolutely coexist within the city, and I think that's the beauty of it. Um, just because group has less, um, economic means at their disposal. That doesn't mean anything. The fact, the fact is you get good people and bad people who have money and do not have money. And I, I honestly believe that if you give people, um, excellent rental products, they will treat them with respect and, and they'll, they'll be delighted to live in them. So the products that we're building, uh, although one is a luxury tower, the other one will be given the same quality of [00:16:00] finishes, same quality of respect. um, yeah, I, I mean, I'm. I'm really excited about how this is gonna play out. Um, we built the Ace Hotel a few years ago, and I may have mentioned to you offline, it was possibly the proudest moment of my career was having the first beer in that bar and, you know, building

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: It sounds like it. Yeah.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: a hotel during COVID like marching to your own execution. Um, nobody was traveling, nobody was eating, nobody was staying in hotels, and we spent a lot of money trying to build a beautiful hotel, which we did. So that was such a proud moment in my career and I honestly believe that that will be beaten when I see the first families moving into our affordable housing project. And create t deserve a lot of credit for that. They, you know, they've, they've followed through, they've unlocked so much value in this city and, you know, they're, they're following a, a strong, um, of guidelines on how it should be done. So yeah, we're very proud to be their partners it's been a very warm relationship so far.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: [00:17:00] Fantastic. If you were to give a fellow developer some pointers because, uh, they have, they don't have a shortage of lots. TI recently saw a couple of other RFPs out and trying to get other peoples involved. If you were to give a fellow developer some pointers in terms of how they can go through this process smoother, how they can be.

Potentially better prepared to deal with some of the regulations. And I'm, I'm sure at the end of the day, create to, as a public entity, they need to look after the benefits of the public. They can't, uh, understandably and rightfully, they cannot act as nimble and as quick as, uh, a private entity can. So what would be some of the things that someone who wants to approach, get, create to your projects should keep in mind to make them make the journey less, less painful?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Wow, that's a very interesting question. So, first of all, if I, if I'm honest, I would tell every developer not to bother because I'd like to bid on some of these projects. So I'm not, I'm not looking for more competition.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: hoping for that answer.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: But the [00:18:00] answer you are looking for is, look, I, if you are vetting on a crate to project with a view to trying to get rich, then this is not the project for you. We went into this. This process, uh, completely differently. I mean, I think there's, there is always investors that have to be taken care of on our side, but actually looked at it that we'd been very fortunate in how we benefited from the market being on fire for 25 years, and we saw this as an opportunity to actually give back and, and try and, um, upgrade our, you know, our. Status in the city and how we were, were giving back to the city the benefit of all of us. So I think, I think profits are gonna be extremely tight if, if you're going into it with an economic view, you're gonna struggle. You have to go into these projects with a social view. So you are gonna be asked by Creatio and the city, and the city solicitors to do things that you don't want to do. There's a lot of hoops to jump through. There's a lot of reporting, [00:19:00] there's a lot of legal work. If you don't like reading legal agreements and understanding them, then I would not get into this. If you have, if you don't already have a good lawyer, I would definitely get one that really understands, uh, complex agreements. But advice would be take your, yeah, take your developer and take your investor hat off and go into it. Trusting the process, trusting that you can actually create something better for your city. And you know, I think the rewards will come in time, but you also have to fight hard for, for what you're getting from create to, you know, there may be some concessions that you, you want and, and you need, maybe the project just doesn't work, proforma doesn't work without it. I think CTO have figured out over the course of the last six years with us and others that, uh, there has to be rigor on the, the upfront process. There has to be an RFP that has to be tiered to, recently, uh, responded to one and we were unsuccessful, which was very disappointing, but we. We spent so much time upfront understanding exactly what, [00:20:00] what was being asked of us.

And I think that would be the, the big piece of advice is be meticulous in how you review what's being asked of you, be meticulous in understanding, um, the requirements that the city have in place. And it's not just on building codes. There's a whole bunch of social and ethical issues that go into these buildings they, they come at a price.

You have to hire consultants. You have to do a lot of legwork, and you really understand what you're bidding on because the, the process is being tightened up to the point that you can't just go in with a bid and then hope to improve it later. The, the last one that we did, we lost it, I think because of our economic model and. We genuinely wish the people that have won that bid good luck because we felt we were about as tight as we could go. So yeah, just be be careful and, and be meticulous.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: It's a, it's a tight performer of, I. I would a hundred percent agree. I know we looked at, uh, the most recent RFP, or not the most recent, but a couple months ago we looked at one [00:21:00] of these RFPs and a hundred percent agree. First of all, it was really vague and obviously we haven't had the privilege of, like, you, you guys, having gone through it and understanding if it was our first time looking at an RFP like that and, uh, weeks into it we're like, listen, like this is, we don't think we can.

Could figure this out in time and we pretty much gave up with the team that we're working on. But, uh, which that, that, I guess there's something to be said about eos and maybe to your point, bringing more clarity to, to how they are reaching out to enable other people. Because the, the particular site that we were looking at was a tough site, was a small site.

We couldn't do too many things on it. It might have been the same one you were talking about. And, um, we, yeah, the development team was a smaller team and they were not willing to take on that much risk in terms of going in. I want to spin your answer because it kind of triggered another thought in my mind.

We, we've had, uh, mariga from Woodgreen Community Services, which is nonprofit, um, organization. We've had Andrea Adams from St. Clair's, affordable Housing that we've had both of them on the show. We've [00:22:00] talked about affordable housing. We, I am involved in. I'm trying to help a few affordable housing and community providers in state of Toronto.

One of the things that keeps coming up is that the land is there, they own the property, they have some asset, but to get that partial parcel land to a finish line, to a development process through the development process, and to get it to even point to a point that, uh, basically. It can be funded through government grants such as CMEC or otherwise, they're facing a lot of trouble, and it, from my perspective, it's a waste because it's, these are good parcels.

They're in a good location. They have the services, they have the community support behind them, all the, that that same community wants to build them. Given that you've gone through this experience with Create Tio, do you have any pointers or suggestions to, to the owners of these parcels or, and or to our city people, our, our authorities and, uh, people in charge in terms of how we can enable those projects?

I.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Um, you, you've obviously jumped into the specifics with, with these particular parcels [00:23:00] where I haven't, so I'm a bit of a disadvantage, but, um, you know, without inserting myself into the process, I, I, I think. involves a lot of deep conversations and a lot of what ifs and a lot of trying to figure out where, and it all comes down to dollars and cents. Where can you save money? So, know, there there's a number of triggers and levers that the city are able to pull. Um, there's a lot of triggers and levers that the, the province and the feds can pull as well. And you know, we've heard the talking heads on, on LinkedIn and. Whatnot saying, well, you know, everybody just has to work together.

And of course, in its simplest form, that is correct, but the actual act of getting everyone to work together, the simple act of, of going cap in hand to these groups and, and trying to get them to give grants fees or levies or anything that they control really the key. And you know, I would say we have a project that we're doing with Woodgreen as well, uh, a condo right now where we're gonna be. Given them seven units, [00:24:00] condos, lock, stock, and barrel is part of our section 37, and we're, we're excited to work with Wood Green on that. So we do know them, but it, it's, it is going through every line item in that proforma, you know, with the housing secretariat, with create to, with whoever is prepared to sit down and, and try and figure out.

Uh, some type of methodology that will reduce the cost and increase the viability of that project. And I do think they're open to it, especially for a, a full, not-for-profit like Woodgreen. Um, I think everybody wants something better. But you know, if you go through the costs that we have, and, and I was on another podcast recently where I, I read a lot of these out, but, bathtub Tubbing adds a lot of costs.

Um,

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: hundred percent.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: we're gonna be removing that shortly. Um, but there, there's bike parking, there was, there's heritage, there's street staging, there's urban design costs. There's land transfer tax, there's Ministry of the environment. There's short term water discharge. All these have a fee associated with 'em, and they're all within the purview of, [00:25:00] of either municipal government or the provincial government and it, you just have to unwind those regulations.

I don't know how you do that, but you have to, someone in City Hall has to be able to put their hand up and go, okay, we're giving you a pass on these 10 things, and that will unlock the viability for these not-for-profits.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: You're, you're absolutely right. We, we have these conversations offline and there are, especially when it comes to smaller scale developments and these mid-rise buildings, it's uh, I joke with some of our colleagues and say, this is a death by thousand costs. Basically that's what it is. Like you said, there's, there's not one big, there are one, there are single huge items such as the DC charges and levies and stuff.

But aside from those, there are a thousand, probably another 999 line items, which are individually, might not be sending out as such. But they do tend to kill these projects and they.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: right.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Don't, they don't necessarily help. Um, you've worked in private sector, you've worked in civil, [00:26:00] you've worked in internationally.

You've been leading, leading Altera for the past decade, and you've now, obviously we talked about your create TO. Uh, experience for the past six years. What does a good partnership look like? How do you, how do you select a good partner in your project? Because the reason I ask this is that for that type of, again, non-profit or smaller development team, partnership is almost inevitable.

Like you need to enter into partnerships to make things work. What are some criteria, some red flags that you look for based on your experience and say, you know what? This, this partnership could work. These are the things we will do or we will not do. These are red lines we will not cross when we think about a partnership.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: So the first thing you have to think about with a partnership is the, the amount of time you are gonna be spending together. So you, you may not necessarily be in the same office every week, but. You are likely to be embarking on a project that's gonna take six to 10 years. So you better really know that you like this person. is way too short, [00:27:00] and it's not just about money. You know, we are not, we, we have agency. We, we get to choose who our partners are. Most of the times we're not a large pension fund, so you better get to know your potential partner first, and you better trust them because. I personally, I want to do business with people that I like.

I wanna do business with people that I trust. I wanna enjoy their company because there's gonna be difficult conversations along the way. There's gonna be bumps in the road. There's gonna be points where you're looking at each other going, okay, what do we do now? Something has changed, and you better know that that partner is going to treat you with the same integrity and trust that you're treating them with. So for me it's, it's all to do can you live with that person for the next decade? Very important. Um, so where do those shared values come from? I, again, they come from your, your track record. They come from how you deal with your consultants, how you deal with your trades, how you deal with your [00:28:00] lenders. Excuse me. And I, I think you can do your homework on people. You can ask around and you know, I'm, I'm really proud of the feedback I get. when I speak to potential partners and they say, yeah, you know, we've done our homework, you know, you, you, you do come with a lot of integrity. You're very well regarded, and that's really, really important.

You know, we pay our consultants, we pay our trades. Yeah. There might be occasions where there, there are cash flow issues, but you communicate. But, but the intent is never to shortchange people they change. The, the intent is always to work with, with respect and honesty.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Thank you very much for sharing that. Can I, can I ask you again? You have a wide spanning career. And different across different sectors and industries. If you were to look back and you look at the most challenging project that you've worked on, which is it fair to say it was the ACE Project, ACE Hotel, or, or was it not the challenging one?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Fit a couple. I think the ace probably was the most unique and challenging. Um, you know, I've mentioned building it during COVID, but the design [00:29:00] was nuts. It was designed by, um, local architecture firm, highly regarded shim sutcliffe, are geniuses. There. There's no question are thinking on a different level, but as a constructor trying to figure out how to take that. Design that I I described as bonkers many times and try and translate it into a real life project is, is extremely challenging. It was a very small stamp of a site. Um, I would encourage anyone that hasn't. Been to the ACE before to take a walk down. It's at 51 Camden Street in Toronto. Um, just walk in if, if you are genuine about being a construction person or a development person, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying you have to go and buy a meal there or go and buy a coffee or a beer. Just take a walk through it. It is the most. Splendid project in the city. All the details and every angle, everywhere you look is just a smorgasbord of [00:30:00] fabulousness. It's so wonderful. All the angles, the materials, I'm so proud that when I walk through that with people in the industry who understand construction, that they really get what we achieved. But it, it just about killed us doing it. It was very, very challenging. Uh, so I, yeah, it's probably my proudest moment. I've had harder projects, I think, financially than that. Um, uh. And that's not without stress. Again, we, we mentioned being in business with people for six to 10 years, working on a project that has its financial challenges is extremely stressful. And, you know, to, to your listeners who, who may be thinking about getting into. Um, development to maybe thinking about getting into construction. sure that you're getting the right advice because when you go down this path and you buy a piece of land and you start, you hire an architect and you've sold your product.

If you're selling, uh, condos as an example. You're locked in and you're gonna have to see it to the end. There's no walking away from it. You have to execute. So make sure [00:31:00] you have the right advice. Make sure you hire the right consultants and, and again, consultants, you trust consultants that, that really know your stuff, that they're, they're not just mailing it in, they're not just giving you a report because you know it is checking a box. You know, question the costs question. The, the site logistics question everything and, and you will do well. But don't just take things at face value and don't think that development is a get rich quick scheme because it is not. A lot of hard work goes into this.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Uh, I want, I want you to please take us to that, to those hard projects. When you were in the thick of it. And the reason I ask this is that I believe we potentially have clients and um, listeners who went through that exercise that you just explained. And these days, based on the market conditions and the way that the costs have turned.

They might be in the thick of it, they might be having those hard decisions that come up daily and they're like, okay, what do we do today? What do we do with this? Do you have a mental model, a framework, a decision [00:32:00] making criteria or process or ritual that helps you go through that? Like Monday morning you pick up the phone, there's, if there's, there's a, which unfortunately happens to us more than we like to admit.

You have a, there's a new issue that was not on the radar before. What, how do you go through that? What's your mental process?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: That's an excellent question. I, I, I describe development and construction as it's getting punched in the face every day as you're walking forward. So

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Unfortunately.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: get. I think you get used to the problems. You get used to the curve balls. Um, but it's, it's difficult not for, it's difficult not to have it affect, uh, you know, your, your, your mental wellbeing, because some of them are real world, real cost issues that you have to wear. So how do you do that? You have certainly the proforma for me is the key. Um. You have to understand all your line items. You have to understand exactly what you're getting into. You have to understand your tax position. You have to understand what HST means. If you are getting into development and you don't understand the [00:33:00] component pieces, then. I would encourage you to find a cost consultant that you really like and really trust become the biggest pain in the ass to them that you could, that they've ever had by showing up at their office, demanding a two hour three, two or three hour meeting, and going through the budget in line item because line item by line item, because. The only way to understand the financial pressures that you're about to get into is by understanding all the component pieces, and it all comes down to dollars and cents. So what will happen is that. If you encourage your cost consultant to strip too much out of it because you know you want it to look rosier, be aware of what you're cutting out.

Be aware of what your true baseline position is because if, if you want to kid your investors, but at the same time you're kidding yourself, you are gonna end up in trouble. So do a rigorous and robust test on each line item. Figure out where the risks are, figure out what can go wrong. And make sure you've got [00:34:00] enough contingency to, to survive, um, the challenges that are gonna come.

Uh, and they will come and, you know, some of them will put you on the ground and you have to figure out how are you gonna get up, who do you trust to pick you up off the floor and solve your problems? And having, you know, a design team and, and strong financial consultants next to you that can solve your problems is really gonna get you through it. People that just bring a little bit of calm and levity. We talked about partners earlier. There is nothing worse than being with shouty partners that are just, you know, snapper heads and they get excited all the time. You're gonna have to deal with these problems very calmly, very methodically, pragmatically, and working through how do we solve this issue? And if everybody's just gonna lose their SHIT all the time, it's gonna be a tough 10 years. That's all I'm gonna say.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Amen. Amen to that. That's the name of the game. And uh, like you said, we have to have a thick skin and willingness to roll with the punches

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Yeah.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: we go [00:35:00] through this,

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: I tell you

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: the

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: the other key thing is if you don't ask, you don't get,

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: right.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: there is a solution to every problem and, and they all have a different solution. But you know, c. Possibly trying to get closer to your city counselor may help you. Trying to get sit closer to your city staff may help you.

Trying to figure out who at City Hall can help you work around a problem. People are generally willing to help if you're respectful and, and ask the right questions. Um, and maybe you'll save a few bucks along the way.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: You, you. That last paragraph sentence there was very polished. My less polished version version of that is that we typically get a call from a site superior on a Monday morning or Tuesday morning whenever, and they're, they're, sometimes they're freaking out and say, oh, we have a problem. We have a big problem.

This is gonna, I'm like my first. Question to them typically is, did anyone die? 'cause that's the only thing we can't fix. And that would be very unfortunate. But aside from that, if, if no one's died on, God forbid, has lost a limb, we can fix pretty much everything else. It's a matter of who you call, what options you come [00:36:00] up with, how much you cost, you budget for, how much you pay, pay for, and then you figure out a way you just roll with it and you go forward.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: could not agree more. And funnily enough, I had that same conversation about two weeks ago. There was an issue on site, and that was my first question was, is anyone injured? What, where are we with site safety? That is number one and always has to be. And you know, I probably through the course of that day, I asked that question three or four times as more information came to light. Yeah, most things can be solved, but you, you, you're never gonna solve somebody getting hurt or, you know, God forbid losing their life. Um, which would, would just be nothing short of tragedy for, you know, when we are trying to build this city up.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Exactly. That's, that's not what we do this for. So with that said, I want you to please zoom out a little bit and bring in your international context. Bring in your international work experience education and look at our industry, look at our city, uh, or if you wanna go wider, look at our country right [00:37:00] now.

Uh, prefer, I think maybe we just stick to the GT area for the time being and what are, what were the first shockers when you start, when you came to Canada and said like, really. Is that how you do things here? Is there like, oh, well why would you do that? Why, why? Why are you not doing this? Or did anything stick out to you and say, listen, like this is just weird.

Why? 'cause I know I had experience and just put light on that. When I came here about 10 years ago, I saw a few things. I'm like, why are you guys doing this this way? And it had to do with construction methods, had to do with policy, it had to do with financing. It had a whole bunch of things. And I've learned a lot.

And I'm not saying what we did back home or other than Canada was fine, but. I'm, I'm, I always am curious when I have people on the podcast who have international experience. Were there anything that you saw that was like, this doesn't make sense. I.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: So I, I'll be honest, I didn't come to Canada with enough experience, um, actually have that, those initial thoughts. So, uh, I'm gonna answer it slightly differently, which is probably not what you're looking for, but. Uh, when I came to Canada, I, I was extremely impressed. I think [00:38:00] we had the, the place was clean, the place was very pleasant.

You know, Canadians had a reputation around the world for being very nice, um, which is, was definitely true. I was, I, I was shocked at how nice they were and it, it seemed genuine. So good for, good for Canadians. Um. I think I would say that we've lost our way a little bit as a, and I'm not gonna get into the construction, but what was different? I feel the city that I came to is not what it was. I think we, it is not as clean. It is not as well run. Um, it doesn't mean that people are not trying to run it correctly, but I feel that we are a city in decline uh. I, there's no way. I'm the only one that's feeling that, so I, I think we just have to have a bit of a reset here on a number of things.

The, civil codes. how I would describe it. We all have an obligation living in society to, you know, do our fair share, to drive appropriately, to treat each other appropriately, to shovel our [00:39:00] sidewalks, to do all the things that are required to be decent citizens. And I do feel that in the 25 years that have have gone before us, that. Civil contract in Toronto is not as strong as it was, and I don't, again, I'm not a politician. I don't know how we get back to that, but I feel we have lost our way a little bit. And again, I, I don't need to point fingers at, at politicians, I do believe that everyone is doing their best, but just as a society, we're, we're not as Canadian as we were 25 years ago. And that's a shame. That's my big answer. The

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Think.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: on the construction side is, and we talked about this, was, uh, the absolute horror I had when I came here and walked onto my first, uh, formwork slab. And the, the bars were six inches apart, 10 mil bars. And I'd come from a large, several project in Hong Kong where we had three meter deep bims. [00:40:00] packed full of 60 mil rebar bars, and I was horrified at just how underdesigned the buildings were here. But then, as I mentioned earlier in the podcast, turns out that this was just a foundation for 120 story tower that was going on at later.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: It made sense.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: So, and now I realize that we're not under designing the buildings.

It's just that my first project was so wildly over-designed. I had no clue what I was doing.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Uh, yeah, you and I talked about that, um, offline, that I almost got fired my first job, first day on, first job in Canada, in construction because I, I went through a job site and to my. Semi-educated eye. The amount of rebar in the forming was just, uh, didn't seem right, so I had to start to stop the concrete pour.

Uh, I want to ask you, I'm gonna try and wrap this up in a couple more questions here. Are there any industry trends that you're seeing that makes you optimistic for the next five to 10 years? And it could be a trend in technology or the market, [00:41:00] or. Anything that you think, you know what, this is good. Like you mentioned your, your, your kids and your daughters there, and you would say, you know what?

This is a good thing when if, when, I don't know if they have any interest in the industry or are effect, or they're definitely gonna be affected by it. Are there any trends that you feel optimistic about?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Yeah, I think we touched on it before. Uh, I, I do believe that. The industry is maturing. I think those of us that have enjoyed the condo boom are, are pulling back a little bit, a little bit more reflective. I do believe that we're gonna set ourself up for better products moving forward. Uh, you know, I mentioned that we are, we're making slightly larger suites. I, I believe that we're trying to, uh, design for the human being. We certainly are. And I think that's really important. So. There is, there is a sweet type for everyone, you know, if, uh, it's not about the size of the sweets, but it's really about the livability. you know, I think the, the Canadian experience prior to the 2005 Places to grow legislation where, which was really the trigger for the density that we had, I think the standard Canadian ethos was that people [00:42:00] wanted to a own their own home and more likely own, uh. A low rise home, you know, with a backyard. So I think that is less attainable now, but I, I do believe that we still have the opportunity to build very high quality livable suites with good outdoor space. Good. Indoor Matt space, I think there's a few things that we have, we have done. Badly over the period.

I think we have added too much complication onto the projects that we've built. I understand sustainability rules, but I think they just have to be reexamined. Um, because what's happening is that certain ideologies and su sustainability is important, but if it comes at the cost of affordability, that's where we've lost our way. So if you look at the. Where did we lose our way? If you look at the peak of the condo business before, uh, we, we took a bit of a pause, which probably started about four years ago. [00:43:00] Condo's downtown. We're selling about 1650 a square foot for, for good product. But really what we would call standard. I think what we need to do is build an industry for the future that is more sustainable, that isn't as erratic and, and subject to. Inflationary pressures. Now, you can't really control everything. We live in a global market, but I think somehow as a group, we need to make sure that we're running pro formas based on standard inflation models. You know, two, 3% at 1.5 years ago. I would say that. Inflation was probably higher than 10% in our industry. I think the fees that were imposed upon us by, um, different levels of government were not subject to, to those rigorous, uh, processes. You know, everyone likes to talk about development charges, and I will too. You know, I was there running proformas every time those doubled and. It was ridiculous. It, what happened was development [00:44:00] charges would go up, developers would raise their prices, trades would see that developers were raising their prices and they'd want a piece of the action. it just became this, this feeding frenzy. So, you know, it, it's not just about the trades and the developers and the consultants raising prices. If you actually look at the profit levels that. Developers have made over the years. They, they haven't really changed. Um, but I would encourage our, our partners at the city to just stop seeing development as a cash cow. Whether it's building permit fees, whether it's, um, staging fees for, for bike lanes or, or car traffic lanes or, or whatever it is. Just put them up modestly. And first of all, let's start by just slashing them down to 10% of what they are right now, because the whole concept of growth, paying for growth redundant.

We should all pay for growth. We're all enjoying the city. We should all pay for the libraries and the transit and the roads. Why should it just be the, the, the new immigrant or the investor that has to pay for growth? That makes no sense.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Thank you very much, and the, the [00:45:00] fact that these increase in cars and dcs and everything else that you, you just named there, it actually prevents projects from happening. If you look at it, the actual what, what. The city did collect from those increases, it'll probably not as much as they hoped to, to, to collect in terms of, 'cause the projects basically didn't get built.

And if you're not building, you're not paying those DC fees or other, all the other fees. And it, it will to some extent, backfire. So there's probably a sweet spot somewhere that you can get stuff built and you still get some payments. And, and to your point, like at the end of the day, if we want vibrancy, if we want, um.

Vibrant community that has new lifeblood injected into it by, by new population. We need to make sure that, um, everyone chimes in and gets things going. We have a magic wand question on this podcast, which I suspect you might have already touched on, but if you were to. It give you a magic wand for the next five minutes, and you could make one wish and this, this wish would be to change [00:46:00] a way of thinking, a regulation, a policy, whatever you want to pick, to make sure that we are in a better position two years from now, five years from now, as it as it pertains to our industry, as it as it pertains to affordable housing affordability in the housing market.

And, um, what would that one wish be?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Wow. One wish and I, I can't just take, uh, a few billion dollars and head to the Caymans.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Uh, yeah, we'll do that after.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: That's my second wish. Um, I, I think my, my one wish, you know, it's pretty boring actually. I, I just, I want predictability. I, I want an industry where I'm not constantly reacting to, to. Negative factors, influencing costs. think we, we got so greedy as an industry, and I don't mean you or me or any one individual, one specifically, but I, I would love to just have a consistent approach where I can predict the future and I, I'm not subject to changes, um, coming at me from City Hall or the province [00:47:00] or the feds. A sustainable simple. Approach to our performance where I can go in with a hundred million dollar performer and in three years when I get to build, it's maybe gone up two or 3% per year as opposed to going up which is pretty common. Now, will say that that is complete fantasy, and I, I appreciate the, the question in itself with a magic wand is an element of fantasy, the variables that go into development construction are. Bananas. I mean, there, there has to be thousands of moving parts, um, thousands of stakeholders, big or small. Um, so I, I don't think you're ever going to be able to control that, that would be my one wish. Predictability and sustainability on an economic level,

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Amen. Thank you very much, Stuart. This has been fun. Is there anything that I haven't asked you, or do you have any fi uh, final thoughts we, before we wrap up?

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: No, I think this has been great. You know, I, I, I would, I would thank you for having me on. I, I think, uh, we've chatted a couple of times and I think that the good work that you're doing is important. You know, I think having these [00:48:00] discussions where we can have an open and frank discussion on how our industry works is really important. There's a lot of good people trying to do good things in this industry. We sometimes get a bad rap for. Being greedy developers or however you were described, but my experience is fairly consistent across the board. There's just a lot of good people trying to build good product, improve the city, and, you know, and get paid along the way.

You know, there's not a lot of guys driving around in gold, Lamborghinis. it's just a, a bunch of decent, uh, people who are, who are trying to. Give this city what it needs. So, you know, I appreciate you having us on. I appreciate getting the message out there and doing the good work that you're doing.

Thank you.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Thank you very much and I appreciate you saying that. One of the reasons we started this podcast was to kind of break the. Myth around the big, big bad developer that everyone who's trying to do that is a big, bad developer. And quite frankly, a lot of, like you said, I've had the privilege of working with and for a lot of [00:49:00] developers over the past 20 years or so, and mostly, mostly like 99% of them are entrepreneurs, hardworking people, their service providers, and they're trying to make.

Something happened in terms of legacy for themselves, for their families, and for their communities, and they get paid for it. And sometimes when we are sitting in the back and look at these performers and get those phone calls, I know we have had this. Question more than once or many, many, many times more than once, come up that why do we do what we do?

Because it's just too hard. Some, there are days that are really hard. But thank you for, thank you for doing what you're doing. I'm hoping that we can have a part to have this conversation in a year or two and we might have better news and hopefully new lessons to share with the audience. Thank you, steward,

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: I

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: and have a great day.

stuart-wilson_1_02-23-2026_110427: Thank you for having me on.

payam_2_02-23-2026_110438: Thank you.