Between Two Worlds: Adilson Borges on Integrating Academia and Industry, Part 2

In this episode of AMS Illuminations, Adilson Borges, PhD, who was recently appointed Dean of Rennes School of Business, discusses his transition from industry to academia and the vital importance of merging these worlds. Borges highlights the benefits of academia and industry collaboration to mold future leaders and enhance organizational transitions. He contrasts the pace and mindset differences between sectors, urging academics to prioritize practical applications over perfection. Borges also introduces evidence-based management as a key method for academia to demonstrate its value in real-world settings. Tune in to discover how bridging this gap can elevate both academic and practical impacts.

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Transcript

Patricia Rossi, Vice President of Engagement, AMS:

Hello, listeners. I'm Patricia Rossi, Vice President of Engagement for AMS. Thank you for joining us for another episode of AMS Illuminations. To help us reach more listeners, give us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or share AMS Illuminations on social media. For more information about the podcast and today's guest, visit ams-web.org/illuminations. Now, let's dive into today's episode.

Brad Carlson, Ph.D., President, AMS:

Welcome back, listeners. Adelson, so great to have you with us again. I look forward to continuing the conversation that we began in our last episode of AMS Illuminations. For listeners, if you have not checked out that first episode of our conversation, I recommend you go back and do that before listening to this episode.

So if I were to take your response and try to flip that back into advice for academic researchers, let me know if I am capturing the essence of your response. When we do find these little counterintuitive results, rather than including those as a bonus, an add-on to our research findings, it may be more advantageous for us to dig deeper into those specific results and continue to explore them and find additional evidence so that this little bit of counterintuitive insight actually becomes more common knowledge, that we provide more evidence. So this is not just this unique occurrence in the market, but instead, we're going to dig down deeper into this so that this becomes, "Look, we have a substantial body of evidence here that suggests we need to give attention to this."

Adilson Borges, Ph.D., Dean, Rennes School of Business:

Absolutely, Brad. That's exactly right. I think there are multiple ways to do that, and one way is knowing how you tell the story about your research, how you were integrating the results that you were finding in this particular study on the set of studies that you were doing vis-a-vis the whole theory that you have behind, and then you come and tell that to the business world and all of a sudden your story is not about this little tiny situation that you brought in with your moderator in this particular industry, in these particular circumstances, in this ... You know what I mean? Very specific role. Now, it's something that's big, that has an impact on different businesses, and that the people who are listening to you can actually very quickly transform into something that they can use in their day-to-day practice.

Dr. Carlson:

Excellent. All right. Now, I want to circle back to one of your previous responses. I said there was a lot to unpack. One of the things that you discussed was some of your own research and sharing that in practice and some of the responses to that, and I think we'd all love to hear just the personal side of how did you feel when you took some of your own research insight, outcomes from questions that you had and you went out and investigated, and now you take these into industry and you get a response of, "Wow, this is really insightful. We can use this." Just from the personal standpoint, how does that feel?

Dr. Borges:

Oh, man, that feels so good. That feels so interesting because, actually, it's a journey, right? When you get people coming back to you and say, "Well, we tried that in those three or four stores that we are testing and it actually work, and I did not really believe you at the beginning, but it is working." That is really rewarding. I think as a researcher, like all of us and all the community that's listening to us right now, I think this is all about it. This is why we do what we do is because we wanted to push forward a little bit the practice and see those guys doing things a little bit better every time.

Also, it sparks our curiosity because obviously when you do that, there's some things that work fine, some things that work a little bit different. There's some new insights that pops up and that can help us also to say, "Hey, there is something interesting here. Let's keep digging on that. Let's try to do something new. Let's try to do a new research from this," and that famous virtuous cycle that we love to be, it's really powerful and it's really interesting. And that's one of the most important rewards of strength those bridges and make sure that we have those relationships with the industry.

Dr. Carlson:

Well, that's exactly how I would suspect it would feel. Maybe one day I'll experience that myself, but it also leads me to my next question. You are in this situation, this large organization with a very widespread footprint. You're finding success, you're feeling good about your own ideas being valued. So what motivates you to come back to academia?

Dr. Borges:

I had seven years, a fantastic seven years at Carrefour and really a beautiful organization. I love making a lot of friends there, and like you said, I felt like I had an impact and that it was very rewarding. At the same time, I think when we have done that intensity for such an important period of time, I was looking for something new again, and I felt that within the organization, I was also learning working with leaders that we need also to get better into preparing the future generation of students, the future generation of leaders who are going to the organization.

I was working with all the teams from all over the world and I was seeing sometimes some that disconnection, sometimes that generational misunderstanding and a lot of difficult sometimes that I was also talking to other companies in business saying we have to help and support the development of future leaders, particularly because the challenges ahead are even tougher than they used to be.

I mean, today we are talking about climate change. Today, we are talking about paradoxes all the time. We are talking about VUCA world. We are talking about new technologies all the time. We are talking about war backing the world in many different geographies. And all those elements, they put a layer over a layer on the complexity when you are managing your team, when you're managing your group within an organization to make the right things, to make the right choices, and the choices that are sometimes extremely complex or extremely difficult.

I mean, everybody wants to do an ecological, I mean, do something that would be responsible from an environmental standpoint, but then if you do, that means that you increasing the price of the product and the product doesn't sell anymore, but then you have a problem there. So those things are complex, and because they are complex, we need leaders who can really understand those topics and they can really be good at innovation, and at the same time, leaders who can actually accelerate those transformations within our organizations from a human perspective, particularly in this technological intensive role, we need to become even more attuned to the humans and to connect with them to make sure that we can make the change happen.

This is the reason that brought me here is that I believe that I can make a contribution to help create those unframed leaders, those leaders who are a little bit different, not better, not worse than anybody else, not better than other schools, not worse than other schools, just different, just unique in which we can share those what I call those three Cs, the create, connect, and change. Create because to be creative, to be curious, to take a step back and challenge the status quo and say, "It's not because it was that way that we did yesterday that we need to keep doing the same way. We might be using a different technology. We might be now using a different approach because that what's bringing innovation to the table."

But innovation, as you know, it's not a me thing, a I thing, it's a we thing. We need to build that together with others and we need to connect, we need to cooperate, we need to communicate with others. We have to have a team, and working in teams and collaborating is one of the most complex things those days. We are talking about silos, we are talking about cross-disciplinary and all that stuff, and so this is very hard and we need to equip our future leaders with that.

And if we do this plus the toolbox of the change management, which I think is so essential to embark people around change and not be the old boss kind of, "I know what to do and here's what you have to do," that doesn't work and we know that, I think, it's very inspirational. So I believe that I can try with the teams, with all the faculty from the school. I believe that I can make a contribution here, and I think that if we can make those future leaders a little bit more unframed, a little bit more innovative, a little bit cooperative, a little bit more change makers in the future, I think we might help the world to become a better place. That's my goal, but listen, this is the reason why I came back to academia.

Dr. Carlson:

Your response has highlighted what I already knew, but what I think some of our listeners who maybe have not been as familiar with you prior to this point, and that is you really are an exemplar of what we should be seeking in academia as we try to bridge the gap. You are a role model that I think everyone in AMS and the discipline at a broader level could try to follow into your footsteps. I think as I listen to your story, I think some of the listeners would also really find some value if you were to share with us, how did you keep your connection with academia?

Now, of course, you stayed very involved with AMS. We've been very fortunate to have you. I know you've stayed very active, but have there been other things that have really been a priority for you while you were in the industry to maintain that connection with academia? And now that you're making that transition back into academia, are you going to be able to approach it in the same way or are you going to need to adjust the priorities and how you continue to stay connected with industry now?

Dr. Borges:

Thank you so much not only for the question but also for your words, Brad. I really do appreciate it. I think maybe there is one thing that I think it's valuable for me and it's key and maybe it's one word of advice for anyone who would like to try to restrain that relationship. I think it's the word community, is be invest on your community. Don't let people down, keep together, keep in contact, keep in touch.

When I move to industry, I kept as much as I could, obviously, the relationship with the different individuals, friends that I love from academia. I keep publishing, I keep working on research with my ex-PhD students who are all now professors everywhere in the world. I think keeping that alive is for me a human journey. It's not only about business or about doing research or about being an academic, it's nurturing relationships. And I think this is key if we really wanted to maintain and develop that in the future.

I did not have any plans to go leave academia to go to industry. I did not have any particular plans to leave industry to come back to academia. Those things happen, but every single time that I did those moves, I always kept those communities. I nurture them. I go for dinner with them. Last week, I had a group of leaders in the L&D industry here in France, in Europe who came for a dinner together. We are talking about things that we are doing in the organizations and what are the main topics that they are addressing.

I believe sometimes we look at that as networking, and I don't really like the word networking because it sounds to me a little bit I have the intention behind my head, I'm doing this because I need something, and honestly, it's not because we don't know what the role is going to be about tomorrow, but it's just about making friends. It's just about being curious about the other person. It's just about learning to know somebody new, somebody who has a different view than you who can bring you some really interesting stuff. Many times during my time in industry because that was the sense of your question, I had conversations during the weekends with friends from academia, and that was so refreshing because I was missing those conversations as well.

I was like, "Really? You were studying this thing? Let me challenge you because here in the industry, I'm seeing this, this and that. How can you incorporate this?" And that was cool. That was fantastic, that it was sometimes aha moments for me and I think for my colleagues and friends as well. So I think if there is one thing that I would like to maybe leave people with is building the bridges, is building the bridges among human beings. And when we are humans, we love to connect, but you have to respect the other and we have to listen to that. Listen to understand, not listen to respond or to answer. Listen to understand and be really nurturing those relationships all the times because then life will bring you back many opportunities, things that you don't even expect as long as you also can give a hand to others who are also looking to do some of those things as well.

And this is really what has been for me. I've been fortunate enough to have those opportunities with great people who cross my way and open up so many doors, particularly at the AMS. I really feel blessed to have that opportunity. So keep nurturing your communities, keeping growing them, keeping testing with them, keeping getting amazed and surprised with them because that's going to leave you, for sure, going to give you much more opportunities and going to strengthen the bridge whatever bridges you wanted to build, but they're going to be great, I'm sure.

Dr. Carlson:

So, I would love to follow up with your comments about nurturing relationships, building community. Obviously both in academics and in industry, a lot of the work that we do involves other people. It's teamwork. For those of us who have not sat on both sides of that line, what does teamwork look like in industry compared to teamwork and academia? How is it similar? How is it different? How can you take your unique experience and potentially offer some recommendations to our listeners about how can we be more agile and how can we be more innovative in academia as we work with teams?

Dr. Borges:

I love that question, Brad. Thank you so much for sharing this one. I never thought about this, and I believe that you had touched upon something that's really interesting because from one side in academia, there is one thing that is marvelous but can have a boomerang effect, which is we choose with whom we wanted to work. I mean, we make research with those that we like who we work together well, and I think that's a blessing. That's fantastic. And it's certainly not necessarily the case in industry. Sometimes you throw one in teams and you say, "Okay. I'm going to work with those folks and then I'm going to build something. I'm going to build value with them."

Here's the drawback though, and I think it's an invitation again in academia to I would like to challenge that, it's what about if we look at the people that we don't like to work with? What about we try to find somebody that we hate and try to do a research project with? Because it's like the bubble on the internet. You have those algorithms that put together people who think alike and people who think exactly the same thing, which is great and it can produce some great stuff, and we are working in some projects and we like the way we work together, but when we stop to think about it, if my grandma used to tell me when two people think exactly alike, there is one that's just too much in the relationship.

So I think there is also an opportunity for us to work with something sometimes with people who are a little bit different than us because that can challenge us on the way we are doing things. Maybe it can bring a different perspective. It can be a challenge from a methodological standpoint. Again, I think it would be utopic to think to be doing that all the time because we also need to be productive, and I think productivity is also in function of how we work together and choosing the partners that you work well.

It's interesting, but at least having your pipeline in your research agenda. Have one or two projects. From the multiple projects that we are handling maybe, one or two projects with new people that maybe doesn't work that well or just don't throw away a partner that you try to do something that did not work out well because that's the tendency, at least it was mine. Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe it's not with you. But when I start by working a paper with a colleague and then, "Oh, my God, that's really ..." and then I never work again. Well, maybe give a second shot or maybe at least ask yourself, "What is my part of responsibility on that relationship going that way? What can I do better next time? How can I set up the limits differently?"

Whatever it is, you're going to be growing, you're going to be learning, you're going to be curious about how can you become a better professional. I think sometimes in academia, because we are set up in that model, we end up not having many situations in which we work in a little bit more, I don't want to use the word conflict because it's not even conflict, it's just into situations in which we are opposing ideas or checking with people who are not exactly working like us. I think that can be a blessing.

I learned a lot with people that I'll probably not have dinner with, but people who are really good in other aspects and bring and say, "Oh, my god, this is really insightful. I never thought about this," and helping me rethink and challenge me in the way I was doing things that allow me to grow and to develop.

So a great question, a tough, a long answer to say I believe that this can be very positive because it's really good in that sense that you can work faster when you know each other and you have those couples like people who work together for a long time in many projects, and that's fantastic, but make sure that you keep oxygen getting in and getting other folks and eventually even folks that you don't necessarily like necessarily to work with, but sometimes they are telling a lot about you. That can be a beautiful opportunity for you to grow and develop yourself as well.

Dr. Carlson:

Wow. I really love that response. It gives a lot of insight that I think we could all kind of take to heart in terms of how we approach our team building. That point about differing perspectives, I think that's so valuable. On a second point, I think if more people adopted that approach, I'd have a lot more projects to work on fitting into that category, reach out to people, you're not as fond of. Listeners, this is good stuff. Joking, but I think these insights, I really like that response.

As clearly through your last few responses, you have a lot of insight that you've been able to share with us. You have such tremendous experience. I think where you're all familiar with some individuals who have started an industry come to practice or some who have left practice and gone to industry, I don't think there are many who have done what you've done, made the transition multiple times and done it effectively, successfully at a very high level. Again, I want to reiterate how thankful I am that you've taken the time to speak with us today. On behalf of AMS, on behalf of our new podcast, AMS Illuminations, you have certainly illuminated the opportunity that exists for us as academics to bridge the gap. So thankful for your time, Adelson. It's been a real, real treat talking with you today. Thank you.

Dr. Borges:

Thank you so much, Brad. I really do appreciate it. The AMS is family for me. I really do love this organization, and I think AMS have put in practices so many things to be inclusive, to be diverse, and I believe that this is ... I love to spend time with folks in the AMS and I'll be very, very grateful to have this opportunity to talk to you and try to share a little bit of insights that I have. Would be very happy to engage with everyone who wants in one of our great conferences. We are doing one in Florida now I think, and there is also the World Marketing Congress coming pretty soon. I'll be very happy to have a coffee or anything to keep talking about that and trying to strengthen those bridges because I think it's valuable for everyone. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for all those thoughtful and interesting questions. I really do appreciate your time and preparing that and inviting me here. Thank you so much.

Dr. Carlson:

Thanks again. For all the listeners out there, please follow us. Make sure you listen to all our future episodes. This is just a second of many to come. If you do have someone you'd like to see as a guest here, please share it with us. Send us an email, send us a message on social media, and make sure the next time we have a podcast offering, you're here listening.

Patricia:

Be sure to subscribe to AMS Illuminations and don't miss out our episodes. If you have a question or topics you'd like to be up for discussion on AMS Illuminations, email ams-web@outlook.com. For more information about AMS and AMS Illuminations, visit ams-web.org.