E6: Hierarchy of Sex Work

On this episode of Behind the Paddle we discuss why escorting more stigmatized compared to other forms of sex work. What activities and roles fall under the umbrella of sex work? And where does being a sugar baby fit into this spectrum—can it be considered a form of sex work? 

Join us as we unpack these questions and explore the nuances and societal perceptions surrounding the diverse world of sex work.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Hi, um welcome to Behind the Paddle Podcast. I am Paulson Victoria and I am here with Emily Sun. Yeah. And today we will be discussing the hierarchy of sex work. So yeah. I am in the sex work industry. I do many, many different types of things. And it's always a topic which I can just talk about. It's just the knowledge in the back of it. It's my special interest where I can just Which is handy in the work you do.

unknown: 0:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 0:36

We're just gonna well, you're gonna rattle off some questions. Yeah. And I'm gonna answer them. It may be controversial, it might not be, we shall see.

SPEAKER_03: 0:48

Cool. So just straight off the bat, um where do you find that there's more like any controversy in your working life, like to do with like pro-Domin or escorting?

SPEAKER_02: 1:04

So this is very interesting in the way that escort, it's such a taboo. Ooh, it's dirty, it's gross, and you get checked, you need to sort your life out. Are you are you addicted to drugs? Have you got an addiction of something? Whereas I've had all that before, and then with being a dominatrix, wow, that's so empowering, wow doing what other women like can't do or whatnot, standing up to men, you must feel so empowered and powerful, and it's like what like how is escorting is it really that different? You're still you can do whatever you want with your body, yeah. Um, unless I'm sure at one in one episode we'll talk about survival sex work at some point, but in a what would you call it in like a chosen profession for yourself rather than it being like a surfing? Yeah. If you're in a steady, safe environment and you do choose this as your job, then you've got the freedom to do so much. You can pick your hours, pick um your wages, pick where you do it from.

SPEAKER_03: 2:38

It's just like any other like self-employed job really.

SPEAKER_02: 2:42

It's just because you open up your legs when you're an escort, and people instantly think, Oh, they're getting preyed on, they're doing this for whatever reason, or they've got trauma, they've got daddy issues, that's why they're doing it.

SPEAKER_03: 2:57

Like they don't see you, they just see all like the connotations attached to like that role.

SPEAKER_02: 3:02

Absolutely. I do have trauma and daddy issues, but that's besides the point. I I was doing this for many, many years in many different ways, um, which I'm sure we'll click on in a minute, that there are different types of sex work. But what I've seen is that because I I do both services as a dominatrix and escort, um even that in the Dominatrix world, because I'm not a traditional Dominatrix, where it's like don't traditional is like don't touch me. You kinda don't be your titsu. Yeah, exactly. Like like even that, like there wasn't much of that freedom, and it's it's one of those controversial parts where it's like how the fuck can you say you're for freedom when there's so many judgmental people, more so women in the industry, in the dominant industry, where they will literally blacklist you if you do escort services or let people rim you, like something as minimal as that can give you a bad look, basically. Um, I know mistresses who don't even like getting their feet touched, yeah. And everything is closed, everything, which is absolutely fine, that is their choice, and that they are within um like they have the freedom to do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 4:44

And that means that on the back of that they shouldn't be looking down on others that choose to do extra services or whatever. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 4:51

I do what makes me happy, I do what you're comfortable with, yeah. So there is a lot of stigma in the actual industry itself, never mind on the outside.

SPEAKER_01: 5:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 5:03

Now, most people, if if they look at um my previous porn and stuff like that, they would know that I was pregnant so I had a kid. So it's very difficult when you're at school or whatnot, and like you're making friends with the mums. What do I say my job is? Yeah, I would prefer to say I work in the adult industry, yeah. And then if they don't click on by then, oh then it becomes a bit difficult because there are people with you, and it'll either be, oh, or oh wow, interesting. Yeah, and I've become mum friends with mums who become engulfed by my job, and that is the only interesting part of me that they see, and I've cut the friendship out because that is just not cool at all. They they see it as like sightseeing, basically, it's something very interesting to them where I like it's a novelty, basically, yeah. Yeah, um, yeah, I'm trying to like not say too much on that subject. In case anybody's less than but there are people out there who are just interested in your job and they will go on and on about it and not have like your best interests at heart and things. And there are people, for example, I was in previous relationships and they've used my job against me.

SPEAKER_03: 6:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 6:38

And it's very hypocritical, I want to say, of men that men or women that will use the services of an escort or a dominatrix but say they won't date. I f I find. And it's like, huh, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 6:54

I like they won't have their cake and eat it too, can I think like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 6:58

Yeah. Um so there's a lot of taboo-ness everywhere.

SPEAKER_03: 7:08

I find it interesting when you're saying about like it being like a kind of ongoing issue you've you've come across like with even within the adult industry.

SPEAKER_02: 7:16

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 7:17

Do you find that like a lot of pro-DOMs don't see themselves as sex workers, and that's where this kind of line is being drawn, where like full escorting like is the is really the only type of sex work I've came across that never really gets denied as being sex work. So it's like it's the one that if you're associated with it's unavoidable that you are then also in sex work.

SPEAKER_02: 7:41

Yeah, it's like it it's like um yeah, I would absolutely say that being a dominatrix it's it's sex work. You're selling your body at the end of the day, you're selling your skills, you're sexually gratifying someone else, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Which I understand in other jobs like working at um like working at a shop or something, you can wank over anything.

SPEAKER_03: 8:05

That the knowledge is key though, you know, like when you're pro-dom and you're actively trying to sexually gratify someone, like that is the aim, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 8:15

Yeah, you're like to work their mind, you're there to turn them on, you're there to entice them. Yeah, however that may be. And yeah, it is sad that some pro-doms don't see themselves as sex workers, which is absolutely ridiculous. And it's like, what, what what is your category? What do you label yourself as? What just a dominatrix? No, it's a massive umbrella, yeah, which we'll talk about uh later on, where it is a massive umbrella of sex work, yeah. So there's no denying that at all. It's just being a dominatrix sounds more and less taboo, yeah, taboo in a different way, yeah. In a safer, less risky, more clean way. See, yeah. I I don't openly say to people that I escort because it's got such a bad reputation.

SPEAKER_03: 9:22

Yeah, so even for your show, you tend to lead to be like, oh, I'm a dominatrix. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 9:27

Um, and it also feels it feels much more weirder for me when I say escort because I think in my mind that if I'm saying it to a couple or a female, that they're gonna think I'm gonna flirt with a partner.

SPEAKER_03: 9:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 9:46

And I don't want that. Yeah. Like I I don't want them to think that I'm sly or flirty or trying to get another client.

SPEAKER_03: 9:55

Yeah, so you feel like people then see your job rather than see you.

SPEAKER_02: 9:59

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 10:00

Whereas when you lead with dominatrix, like that can happen, but it's not like as common. Like there's more of a chance that people like won't have a as big a reaction to it kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02: 10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 10:10

Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel do you think that's what kind of fuels this kind of divide as well then? Do you think it's like people want to keep them separate so that they don't have to have like awkward conversations, basically?

SPEAKER_02: 10:27

Most likely, yeah. Because it is an awkward conversation, I would say, when I talk about escorting because as I'm sure we'll say in another episode, is like the whole sex work industry, it's mainly controlled by men.

SPEAKER_01: 10:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:45

Even though we say it's freedom and everything like that, men control us because they pay for us.

SPEAKER_03: 10:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:55

So my mind's blank now. So I believe the taboo has come from religious people.

SPEAKER_03: 11:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 11:09

People who sadly their husbands are using the services. Yeah. It's it can be just very malicious and a lot of anger, and I'm sure those people need therapy to just help with that.

SPEAKER_03: 11:26

Yeah. Do you find do you think like some of the taboo as well just comes from like women having power? Women being independent and it not being in the control of a man. And they say, like, I understand what you're saying from the point of view of like, yeah, is a man paying for a service? But is you like it is the women that are dictating that service that are making their own money, that are like making their own hours, like all the things that you had said like a couple of minutes ago, like that is putting the power back into women's hands.

SPEAKER_02: 12:00

True, yes. That yeah, there's there's a few sides of the quote unquote freedom. Yeah. Because you can do all that, but you can still have a guy come in and be disrespectful towards you. Oh, definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_03: 12:14

I just mean in terms of like the taboo attached, you know, like where that comes from. Because you're seeing like religion and stuff, which yeah. Um sorry, I've lost my place. Where am I going with this? Do you think part of the taboo is also just because it is like a profession that is associated with women? Oh yeah, going back to what our last podcast with about like periods and stuff like that, how women are just terrible and evil the source of sin, you know, like I feel like all of this thing like feeds into this, like where there is a profession that has been about from the dawn of time, you know, like it's one of the oldest professions. Absolutely, and it's mainly done by women.

SPEAKER_02: 13:03

I'm not saying all the time, obviously, but what you predominantly in the news is women, women, women.

SPEAKER_03: 13:10

It's women that they're using to like demonise it, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 13:13

Like it it's like I'm sure you like when was the last time you actually saw a man on the front page of a newspaper doing OF or because there's loads of men doing sex work, you know, like it's not to say that this is like a woman only profession.

SPEAKER_03: 13:30

No, um, there's loads of people of all genders doing sex work, more at the point. Um, but just shaming us. Yeah. Anytime escorting is spoken about is women.

SPEAKER_02: 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 13:41

In my experience, anyway.

SPEAKER_02: 13:43

I think as well legally, because there is nothing about domination in uh the legislation, people want to stick to that rather than saying sex worker, because when you think about sex work, you usually do think about escorts, yeah. Um or prostitution, and there are a few laws around prostitution, however, there aren't laws around domination, there's nothing, yeah. Not explicitly, yeah, not explicitly, yeah. Um, so I I I can understand that divide where they don't want to be called a sex worker, but at the same time you're a sex worker. It's a giant umbrella. I think it comes to a point where some women just have too much power. Uh-huh. And again, therapy.

SPEAKER_03: 14:48

What do you mean about women having too much power?

SPEAKER_02: 14:53

Expressing their opinions on like a large platform where they're just talking about how they aren't a sex worker.

SPEAKER_03: 15:00

Yeah, like pushing the kind of the narrative like further away from where it's needing to go.

SPEAKER_02: 15:06

Yeah, and then you've got people who I guess it's sort of the same way with people who are against like abortion and stuff, where it's like, wait, I thought we were gonna give women freedom.

SPEAKER_03: 15:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 15:21

Our body, our choice, all that and stuff. Like, why why are you coming into this when it's not your body? It's not your choice or anything like that. Like that that doesn't make sense to me. Why are you including yourself in not your decision?

SPEAKER_03: 15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 15:36

Why are you making yourself a problem? Are you gonna pay my bills if I get like a normal, normal quote unquote job? Or are you are you gonna help in any way apart from just shout at me or belittle me and bully me and call me so many things? Because you know that's what a feminist is all about.

SPEAKER_03: 15:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:00

It's so bullshit.

SPEAKER_03: 16:04

Yeah, like it's sad when like as with everything, people are stronger when they're together. Like, it's better if everyone comes and is kind of singing for the same hymn sheet, and this like people should be allowed to do with their bodies what they want, as long as it's not like hurting anybody else. Non-consensually, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:24

Like, yeah, yeah, I definitely think there is just less stigma with domination.

SPEAKER_03: 16:31

Yeah, you know, it's powerful, and women on top and yeah, like the men underneath, even though they are also paying them like for a service that they are choosing. Like it's yeah, um the next thing I was gonna ask was like who do you think is pushing this view? I feel like we've kind of touched on this a wee bit, but um like a meet the media, the government, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 17:00

Um what's the bad one? The left wing. That's the right wing. The right wing, yeah, that one. Um we're just very targeted.

SPEAKER_03: 17:14

Again, it's quite like a hot topic. I feel like people get quite worked up about it.

SPEAKER_02: 17:19

It's very taboo. It's something which it's not new, but it's people being people. It's like I want to say like it's like drag, it's like LGBTQ. Yeah. Where it's such a hot and hot topic and it's controversial.

SPEAKER_03: 17:39

I it's polarizing, like it's something that they're able to get people really worked up and angry over, which seems to just be all politics is trying to do at the moment.

SPEAKER_02: 17:48

Yeah, and it's just like people who haven't even frickin' done sex work, an inch of it in their lives, and they want to implicate like the Nordic model. And it's like, how can you do that when you haven't experienced any of it? Yeah, and it's just like, oh we we want to do this for the women who have been abused by the system and things, and it's like but there's no system in place right now, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:15

So the Nordic model is um basically criminalising uh clients, which means that um it's kind of driving people, driving things underground, like clients would not feel safe to hand over like identification to do vetting processes properly, or the way that they're done at the moment, um, or meet in safe places because they're at risk of being charged.

SPEAKER_02: 18:43

I I yeah, exactly. I mean it's like the police will handcuff you and then your family will know, your wife will know. Yeah, people will know like where you where you've been and people clients don't want to risk that, which is absolutely bloody fair. But what I disagree with is why we're bringing this into play, especially when people who want to bring it in are not sex workers themselves, and there is a fleet of us which have said we don't want this.

SPEAKER_03: 19:16

Yeah, especially when the argument for it going in place is to keep more people safe. Yeah, it's like how when it actually does the opposite, it really does. If anything gets prohibited, it drives the market underground, which just makes things unsafer, like it regardless of what the thing is, that's tried and tested, that is what happens. Yeah. So why in this day and age are we still trying to do that with things? Like it just doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_02: 19:41

Like, what why are you touching something which doesn't need to be touched? It can be touched in a good way, where the police can have something where they actually help sex workers, where we could actually have brothels which are regulated, yeah, just like how they have in other countries like Germany, um, and Amsterdam, like in Amsterdam, they want to actually make a sex work city and block it off and things like that, which again is a normal which is a really the greatest any anyway, but their goal is to try and make it safer, yeah. Whereas with Scotland, because they only want to implicate it with Scotland right now. Alright. Scotland's the only thing. Almost the guinea pig, always. And I'm just like, if this happens, I might have to think about moving to England because I need clients.

SPEAKER_03: 20:42

Like it has been dropped at the moment because of the general election. Oh, everything has actually. No, no, but I just know that like I know they were speaking about it, but it has been dropped as it stands just now. So it might get picked back up again, but it'll be after the general election. So like things are o no okay, but like stable at the moment.

SPEAKER_02: 21:03

Um But it it's like in Edinburgh they tried to put a cap on how many strip clubs.

SPEAKER_03: 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:12

And it's well, uh lap dancing clubs? Strip clubs, yeah, it's called strip clubs. Um adult entertainment venues. Yeah. And there is only allowed four. So there's three currently, and if there was a fourth to be done, it would have to be from somebody in the sex work industry, I believe. And it's I like why are you are you for afraid of making it a quote unquote like dirty city or something like that? No, it's it's absolutely it's so rude and disgusting. And again, these are people who haven't been in the sex industry before, they don't know what it's like, who are making these rules for us, yeah, the actual sex workers.

SPEAKER_03: 22:04

It just goes to show that like the the changes that they're like proposing to make are not actually about safety at all, because they're not they're just totally like disregarding yeah, it's their own agendas, not even just people in industry, but like the relevant charities that have done the studies that are showing like this is why this does not work, this this is why this will not work here, and yet they are getting ignored. Yeah, like like they're ignoring the expert advice, it's not even just like people, it's like yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 22:35

Like, I'm sure there are people out there who are willing to like help with having a safe space for sex workers to actually work from because there's also the fact that there can't be two sex workers working at the same property, even if it's not at the same time. Like at the moment that's illegal. Yeah, you can't do that, and it's absolutely it's a joke, it really is that there is nothing in place for us to safely work, instead, it's there to just damage us when we literally haven't done anything wrong, we're just living our lives. Now, if there was a pimp or an abuser, fair dues, go after them.

SPEAKER_03: 23:18

But then the laws should be about them, not about the sex workers. Like, this is where it falls down because by them criminalising sex work, they're not protecting the sex workers from these abusers and pimps and all the things like that is where the criminality should lie, not in the acts itself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 23:39

It's like this is victimizing people, like yeah, like this is another way of how some DOM separate themselves from being a quote unquote sex worker and whatnot. Yeah. Because if you are just doing domination services and you have, say, a dungeon or a a space where you want to work with somebody or you loan out a room or you're doing doubles with somebody, if that other person does escort services, then I believe they can get in trouble.

SPEAKER_03: 24:17

I think it would be if they were both doing escort services, would it not? Because See, this is how unclear the law is as well. That's probably not even.

SPEAKER_02: 24:29

Yeah, yeah. Like this is how the law can determine what they think is allowed, basically, what they can prosecute you for, is not even that clear. It's an absolute joke.

SPEAKER_03: 24:43

Yeah, like it's left ambivalent on purpose. I think so that if there is a situation where someone is being trafficked or there is like someone, there's an actual like crime being committed, they have the like the looseness of the law to cover different situations. But in the actual guidance, that's supposed to not apply to like just regular sex workers, but that's not the case. That's not how that is actually taken, and it seems to be totally dependent on what police are there that day, on how the law is actually being followed.

SPEAKER_02: 25:22

Like if you get a police officer and he's having a bad day, oh well, you're fucked, really.

SPEAKER_03: 25:27

Um there's just too much ambiguity in everything, like there needs to be like it's not that there shouldn't be legislation, there should be. The legislation's important, like that should be clearer so that it is actually protecting people.

SPEAKER_02: 25:41

Yeah, like there's not enough about that, and I think that comes into just how people see this as taboo and they want it to go away, and it's like no, like there are people out there who actually love their job and they love this. Like, I've been doing this for seven years now, legally, since I was 18. And I I've been loving it, and there needs to be things put in place where you go after actual traffickers, people who are doing survival sex work, put them in to actual brothels where they are regulated, there are they are safe, and you watch the clients come in and out, and yes, it would lower the amount of clientele, but at least they're safe. And you could help pay them some of that money as well, um, in ways of like set a minimum of like how much money I like it being governed like any other job. Yeah, like there being minimum wage, there being benefits, there being sick pay, like because it will get like their clientele will be affected if they have to go into a building and be watched and everything like that. But at least the people are safe. Yeah. But then again, when the hell have you seen a article about a sex worker getting killed or a sex worker getting injured or anything like that? Nah. You will see a channel for documentary front page or something, or an advert saying, Oh, let's look into the lives of this dominatrix or swinger or um phone chat only fans model or something. That is way more interesting than a dead prostitute, yeah. Which is sad and it enrages me because people only like drama, yeah, but only when it benefits them.

SPEAKER_03: 27:47

Yeah, only when it's feeding into our narrative, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:50

Which, like, yeah. And even with some of the documentaries that are out, all people see is that we get rich and we're snobby or we're scary or gross. It's it's not always in the greatest light at all. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 28:08

It's either like totally glamorous or like in the gutter, like there's no in between. Like, yeah. But people like the extreme versions of things, that's just like the media.

SPEAKER_02: 28:20

It's it's it's interesting to people who aren't in it. Yeah, people enjoy seeing what they don't understand, what they're not into. Yeah, it's like, why is this man dressed up like a dog? Yeah, so oh what a freak. What tootsie right on time? I know did you just hear dogs, she's peaching is my two-hour cross. She is a tiny little devil. Come in, we can do it. Come here, we'll talk about pet play and the taboo I get well. There's a there's a lot of taboo with with kinks and stuff like pet play. It's like, oh, do you do shag a dog and stuff? We can make another podcast about that, I think.

SPEAKER_03: 29:11

Yeah, yeah. Cool. Um, just kind of going back into like the different types of sex work and stuff again. Um another interesting one is like sugar babies and sugar daddies, and this kind of again, a lot of people like having that disconnect from it being sex work, yeah. Which given what we've just spoken about, it's totally understandable. Like you can see where people want to draw that distinction.

SPEAKER_02: 29:40

Yeah, absolutely. Like I know that there are students who do sugar daddy arrangements and they do not want their parents to find out.

SPEAKER_00: 29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 29:50

Because they find it gross, dirty, oh uneducated, things like that. Yeah. And I want to just say that. find sugar daddies you based on the fact that they don't want to the ones which I've seen and had they don't want to pay that much yeah they want a lot of stuff for f free basically they want to know what services you give yeah are you wanting to go on shopping trips will you go on dinner dates with them how will you entertain them basically will you give them sexual services and so they basically want a sex worker but that's called something different so that it's okay every fricking time anyway I have said to a guy oh I'm actually a prostitute oh I'm not interested in you anymore yeah and it's like what the fuck that doesn't even they w because they want someone inexperienced yeah so they can take advantage of them but that's that's how I see it now if there are any sugar daddies out there who do want an experienced person cool hit me up but here is my actual rate and that is what you're gonna pay you're not gonna pay me no hundred pounds an hour or anything like that. That was what I was gonna say like I had watched a video on sugar dating um the other day like totally separate to this like I'd just seen a thing about I think it was on TikTok and they were talking about rates and it was like£100 an hour and I was like that is not a lot that's cheaper than Dominatrix rates yeah like no mate no depending on where you go for it it's different every certain rate when it comes to like in person but in general£100 an hour is quite cheap depending on what you're doing. If it's like a dinner date and they're picking paying the bill that's fair enough fair enough. But for this was like for full on like sexual services not just that that like again you can do your rates however you want but a hundred pounds for me I I couldn't do that and usually they want a discount I I I had a guy when I was on sugar baby sites because some most sugar baby sites will black ban you if you mention money. Yeah which what the fuck because it'll go against their terms and conditions like they'll not be allowed to actually offer it's ridiculous and it's like oh yeah sure this woman is giving up her free time for free to satisfy a man sure yeah that's real um I had a guy offer me 400 pounds for an overnight oh my gosh and I was just like no no no thank you no I mean maybe when you're young and you're a student when you're inexperienced yeah like unknowledgeable about the subject which when you don't have bills when you have no responsibilities go for it yeah you go with that man to a trip to Spain Italy or whatnot you do that but with me right now and probably for the future I need to pay my bills I can't just take a week off and go to like Thailand or whatnot because that's one that's currently up there on um one of the adult sites that I'm on and he's offering a grand which is alright but it's for a week a grand and a free holiday to Thailand you know that I mean who's passing that up unless you need to work and have bills as you say like for most people that's covering their bills for the week. But yeah I I it's you can easily get manipulated by men if you're an inexperienced so I would just say just be careful with sugar babies and stuff like that uh sugar daddies sorry but you are still a sex worker in in my opinion you are classed as a sex worker because you are using your looks especially to get something you want you're again providing a service for sexual gratification like that's yeah if look I'm sure out there and not including pay pigs or any dominatrix stuff I am really interested to know if any sugar babies out there have given a service longer like they've had some a client longer than a year and within that year they've met at least four or five times and they haven't given a sexual service or it's not leading up to a sexual service I would love to know.

SPEAKER_03: 35:02

I feel like that'll be out there but it'll be so so rare.

SPEAKER_02: 35:06

Yeah like I think that like there are very nervous blokes where they would want to go on multiple dinner dates. Before anything yeah but it would always be the aim it would be the goal. It's like if if you hold his hand yeah sex work if you for money yeah for money if you like caress his leg with your leg have a bit of flirtatious back and forth it's sex work. Yeah if you're doing it for money or if you're doing it for a dinner if you're doing it for food you're doing something in exchange for those services is that no most dates if the guy's paying I mean I split the fucking belt that's why I said if the guy's paying like where's that line? I mean there are women out there who will or people out there who will just go on dates for the food.

SPEAKER_03: 36:00

For food I know people that have done that skin just go on Tinder.

SPEAKER_02: 36:03

Yeah like it's a good idea I that is a tricky question because it's not your job you're just doing it as like a hobby but that's that's the case with a lot of sugar babies though if it's not their I don't know if 'cause some of them don't admit that it's their quote unquote job because they don't see it as a job because God knows why that's a good one.

SPEAKER_03: 36:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 36:33

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 36:34

I think when it's like pre-arranged like that it feels different. Because both parties know you know like there there's an exchange then yeah with both parties like being active in that exchange that was pre-agreed upon whereas like a date doesn't he isn't he like that.

SPEAKER_02: 36:56

Yeah it's more unspoken you know I mean what what are your guys' opinions on this? Because that's kind of like stumped me because like I want to say it's sex work because you're exchanging your time for something.

SPEAKER_03: 37:19

Yeah but that's true of like so much stuff you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02: 37:24

Yeah it's it's this is where it gets fuzzy like this is why there's so many like professions out there that we see sex work but other people don't and vice versa like this is this is where the taboo of it doesn't make fucking sense because like you can wank over anything you can exchange whatever you can for like flirting and food and stuff and it's like would you would you um actually say to somebody like oh that's that's horrible you using somebody for food or would you laugh at it like what we're doing now. Yeah and I feel like that's the difference between doing escorting and then doing something so like I guess nonchalant and like I mean I'm sure some dates have ended with like opening your legs and stuff like that and then never barely spoke and whatnot. Yeah so how is that acceptable yeah because again it's like when you escort you're doing it for money whereas when you go on a one next stand or whatnot you're not doing it for money.

SPEAKER_03: 38:39

How many stories have you heard where women have gone out on a dinner date with a guy and the guy has paid and then go unbelievably raging that they're not going home with them and they expect them to because they feel they feel like they have paid for them with dinner. That's so common like I've heard s multiple stories like that.

SPEAKER_02: 39:00

Yeah. So even like the surrounding just happened like that. Yeah and like we've gone back to his and he's just expected sex. Yeah. I was like that's not really how it works. Like what the hell like you're not entitled to it just because you were nice. Yeah and you offered something yeah like that was on you that was your decision like that'll that'll go in the good book and you'll get one fucking tick. Yeah but if you expect a service no phone a sex worker exactly go on like no you're not getting something for free just because you did something nice it's like oh my god it's like when men do the dishes it's like they want to fucking pat on the head it's like they want to oh good job and yeah I'm sorry this all comes down to men the other genders are fine it's just men like women women women are lush that that's fine.

SPEAKER_03: 40:06

Have you ever had like a woman client like I've had couples and stuff. Is it always in couples?

SPEAKER_02: 40:11

If you had like a single female interesting um I've had females come for me for both services um as well as just one allover and yeah it's nice it's lovely yeah it's so different from talking to a male it's it's like it's like I get a wee bit nervous um as well as like going on dates with women and stuff whereas men it's a piece of piss. Yeah but men have that intimidating factor about them in a different way especially when it comes to like oh we're gonna have sex now or you're gonna go on another date with me because I've just paid or whatnot.

SPEAKER_03: 40:56

Yeah you owe me something yeah and I was like nah mate no does not work like that at all cool so this kind of leads us on to like why do you think there's such a divide in like the feminist community with like escorting like it seems like it's either like oh women empowerment like you do you get all like all for it or it's like this is just like a symptom of the patriarchy and like I think it just comes down to other people's morals on just what they see fit of of what their look on it is.

SPEAKER_02: 41:37

Even though they might not have sp experienced it.

SPEAKER_03: 41:40

Yeah. So it's less like a feminist issue then and it still just comes down to like people's individuals' opinions. Absolutely individual opinions.

SPEAKER_02: 41:49

Yeah yeah I've I'm sure there are sex workers out there who don't agree with prostitution um because there is just more of a conversation talking point and it's way more taboo the prostitution bit I mean it's like finding an article online from a feminist who says oh dominating men is bad or whatnot you shouldn't do it. It's more mainly on prostitution. Yeah but and I just feel like that comes from themselves basically maybe their own insecurities yeah because it absolutely rips up the whole freedom your body your choice your life yeah but what are you fighting for at that point? Yeah are you fighting your own agenda because that's what it sounds like yeah but you're not fighting for everybody you're fighting what you think is right. It's like it's it's like religion. Yeah there's many many different Bibles out there and you can pick and choose what you believe in, what you worship and how you do that. Yeah nobody says it's right or wrong everybody has their opinions and you can call call it taboo but like why? What what is the point? Uh-huh because you're bullying other people you're bringing other people down there's just what are you trying to solve really just get rid of prostitution altogether get rid of sex work altogether that's gonna take a lot of fucking years.

SPEAKER_03: 43:38

Yeah I mean I don't think it will happen like it's just it's always gonna be there it's always been there like it's probably one of the first jobs like women ever hunt um it's like it's it's like we can connect it to LGBTQ drag queens sex shops yeah um anything that people are not like looked down upon yeah yeah all that stuff they all find it interesting but not interesting enough to look at it I feel like this just comes back to like sex in and of itself being taboo and being seen as like wrong and dirty and degrading and that's why it's degrading to women to be paid for it. Whereas if it was sex was as it should be in something that's celebrated and like seen as the wonderful thing that it is. Yeah. It w it would be an honour to be as it has been in several cultures in the past you know what I mean where like temples had temple prostitutes and part of geishas and stuff like that. Yeah part of like um celebrating your religion was like having sex and celebrating that and you know like I think this is just like a cultural thing like I I mean I don't see it as taboo.

SPEAKER_02: 44:59

What we need to battle again is the pimps the traffickers the actual freaking bad stuff not the people who love their job and they fr thrive from that people like that exist in every single industry in every single profession.

SPEAKER_03: 45:17

Like people are trafficked into so many different like people have watched taken one too many times I think I think this is when it like boils back didn't it like at the end of the day you're a slave to your nine to five job you're giving up your time your body like so many jobs like just ruin your body yeah for life like give you like all these like conditions for like chemicals that you're working with or yeah and it's like oh you you want to make a point that it's bad sex work like possibly have SDIs STDs okay cool but it's a PP issue.

SPEAKER_02: 45:53

Then we have the NHS and like this was my point make condoms more readily available make them actually maybe free to like actually um professionals do it like they do in Australia where we have to sign up why are anal condoms not given out free this is something that's bothered me for a long time like I understand that condoms are used as family planning right which is obviously to stop people becoming pregnant but condoms aren't even that effective for that so they're marketed as oh this is for use like to stop the spread of STDs so then why are they not giving out anal condoms as well?

SPEAKER_03: 46:36

What are the they're thicker? Well they're thicker. Because they can rip with like the tightness I think so they're like thicker ones I don't I think all the bronze oh but they don't like they're not readily available. Huh yeah that's anyway sorry that's like total off topic but no it is it's another point where like condom should be readily available especially to professionals um same as gloves lube yeah what else is there safety wise like this should be getting treated the same way the um like other countries are like um oh my god I've forgotten the name of the country like Brazil's like decrimin uh decriminalisation programme have like needle exchanges and have like um like clean materials for people to use and access on the regular I'm not I'm not like linking the two but in terms of like just decriminalisation which is something that we're actively trying to get here yeah work with the people put the safety procedures in place for things like if you're gonna ban something for X Y and Z just make X Y and Z more more unlikely.

SPEAKER_02: 47:52

Yeah like Exactly work with the bloody people instead of going fuck you we're gonna you know where you're more likely to get like a fucking God knows what.

SPEAKER_03: 48:04

Yeah like that's making people less safe exactly than just putting like the resources in place for bread on the table.

SPEAKER_02: 48:12

Yeah and with say like the Nordic model coming in and protests and like that's not gonna happen. It's it's ridiculous that people just do not think about the actual sex workers who are doing this as a job and they're not what's gonna happen to them.

SPEAKER_03: 48:31

Like next question we've kind of gone way off topic so circling back um we've kind of we had Kennedy spoke about this we before we started like the Kine only funds versus porn kind of debate and um I feel like porn is also seen as sex work for the most part like yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah I don't know that I've seen that argued that's what I'm trying to say like some of the other ones yes but I don't know that I've heard anybody doing porn claim not to be a sex worker that I've came across I don't think I've seen that only funds I think is a different story. Some people are doing only funds and not seeing it as sex work.

SPEAKER_02: 49:15

Oh actually let me let me make a point porn yes I've seen dominatrixes who produce porn yeah in the way of like kicking a sub in the bollocks or whatnot and they've said this isn't sex work or whatnot. Yeah yeah yeah so are we talking just about penetration porn I think just all okay I I've I've seen dominatrixes say oh I I that I'm not a sex worker who produce porn um but when it comes to actual porn actors who do intercourse I haven't seen it. Yeah because I think then it's like how the fuck?

SPEAKER_03: 49:57

Is that the line then there needs to be like actual P and V or P and E or I don't know. No because was P and A what?

SPEAKER_02: 50:07

Ass like penetration penetration yeah I would think so yeah yeah like but then what about like lesbian porn?

SPEAKER_03: 50:17

Yeah This is where things get a bit because what is into people's opinions. Aye like where does sex start and end?

SPEAKER_02: 50:26

You know like what because this I think in other people's minds domination just isn't sex work.

SPEAKER_03: 50:32

Yeah even if they're fucking a guy in the ass and just isn't sex in general then that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_02: 50:38

Like does sex work require sex and then like where does the line where is the line drawn with like I I think in the people who don't think they're sex workers, I think the line is drawn when it's m not w yeah when it's not male and female penetration. Mm-hmm Because I how the fuck do you explain that? How how you're not being a sex worker or a a porn actor when you are producing pornographic videos. But people make solo porn and that doesn't mean there are no porn stars.

SPEAKER_03: 51:14

This is what I mean like where I call them porn stars. Where's the like this is such a grey area basically I I think again it just it's everybody's opinion.

SPEAKER_02: 51:26

Yeah because there's nothing drawn out in what a porn star is or whatnot. It's funny that the law then matches that yeah this is probably part of the problem like I think even if you do solo porn whether that's talking about a chastity cage or fucking yourself it it's still porn I would say and you're a porn actor like I'm a porn actor I'm just not a very well known one because I I well one I don't keep up with that stuff um I prefer it in person but I would still class myself sort of as a porn actor um yeah cool the last thing we were gonna talk about was is modeling sex work. Again this is all opinion based because there's no because there's loads of different types of modeling as well like if we're talking like page three of the sun oh yeah you got you knock us out yeah like is that is that where the lane's drawn at the end of the day you're using your body in some way but this would only go with if there's skin shown in that modeling like Victoria's Secret or lingerie ones I can't fucking think because Victoria's Secret does that big one on CR or whatnot. Um it's a difficult one because you no matter what company you are with when you see an advert on TV you're selling that person you're selling that image you are trying to convince the person to watch you're trying to convince the person to buy so for instance you see a skinny girl on TV and you see what she's wearing and it's like oh that's that's really nice are you in love with her body or the actual clothing yeah because half the time at least for me when I get the clothing it's like oh that doesn't don't know if that looks right on me like I don't look like that woman so I think in a lot of industries our body our face is being advertised yeah is being sold to consumers to try and sell something is that where the lane is then is that the difference where like for OnlyFunds for example they are selling the act rather than a product do you know what I mean? So I would say with sex work you are selling a persona you're you've got skills at least I fucking hope so you've got skills you're becoming somebody else you are using a lot to your advantage your voice your body you you have techniques you know what you're there to do and it's to usually seduce yeah um whereas if you you're gonna look at like a bank an advert or something like that they're not there to seduce you really they're they're they're to like entice you into going um for another bank or whatnot whereas if it was it's so tricky yeah because if it was like a Victoria's Secrets model then they kind of do want to seduce you just a little bit with their body it's the sex appeal that's still in the that's the word yeah um whereas with sex work you do have a lot of other different skills where skills and knowledge with what you want to do basically um you're with being a sex worker you're also like you talk to them you offer emotional support companionship you anticipate the personality of the client's ideal partner basically whether that be a dom sub relationship or a sugar baby and a sugar daddy relationship um we're not just getting paid for our bodies we're getting paid for the ability to just transform into somebody else basically on cue and like your skills and stuff like that yeah yeah like we are portraying a fantasy we're portraying a version of ourselves so no I wouldn't say it's sex work but it's using parts of sex work in forms of like sex appeal trying to be convincing yeah like making people want to buy something where maybe being flirty or your body yeah so yeah I think there are aspects but it's not fully yeah because we they're just using themselves for an advantage whether they know it or not yeah so an interesting person I think to speak about is like Belle Delphine because obviously she did eventually go into sex work.

SPEAKER_03: 56:59

However for the first X amount of time in her career I believe she never like got naked or like showed anything or like did any like sexual acts that at least were fully on camera she kind of covered things up and stuff like up until that point would you say that she was doing sex work? Absolutely like I feel like this is one of the people that fits quite neatly in that like blurry line you know between the thing like we'll be chatting about.

SPEAKER_02: 57:27

I'm gonna get a bit of this but I absolutely love Bel Delphine and I understand she's a very controversial topic but how you got it you use it.

SPEAKER_01: 57:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 57:39

I remember being in the industry and I looked young as fuck I I used what I had to my advantage and I made the money. It's what it's it's not gonna I know one of the controversial points is when um she dressed up in like a My Little Pony swimsuit or whatnot and she had a lollipop or whatnot and it's like what it's encouraging paedophiles it's like no that that is how their brain works.

SPEAKER_03: 58:04

The pedophiles aren't the issue here like and it and it's just like she didn't fucking create them.

SPEAKER_02: 58:14

Yeah she didn't make them yeah they're just wanking off of her yeah instead of kids be prepared for your family to possibly find out about this which is why I'm truthful with basically everything really um and I hate lying but yeah I think that's it yeah is it?

SPEAKER_03: 58:33

Yeah wonderful right this has probably been a rather long episode but this has been behind the paddle uh what is this exploring the hierarchy of sex work yeah um me post in Victoria and Emily Sin Yeah Sanctuary so yeah as always um there is a discount code which is behind the paddle that you can use at thesancrufsyn.com for a 10% discount um and the uncensored market is happening again in December so if anybody's in and around Glasgow and wants to come along and get some kinky sex positive goodies head along yeah come and check our socials yeah and I will be going to Bitches Unleashed on tour most likely in September.

SPEAKER_02: 59:33

I'll be there too um and then in tour in London in October So yeah I'm very happy all right bye bye