Peach Podcast
Two guys and an occasional guest breaking open topics on: Purpose, Energy, Attitude, Commitment and Health through shared experiences.
Peach Podcast
S4EP08: Where Limits End And Grit Begins: Backyard Ultra 101
Miss the feeling of momentum? We hit reset and dive straight into the wild world of Backyard Ultras—the strangely simple, brutally honest format where runners tackle a 4.167-mile loop every hour on the hour until only one person remains. No prize purse. No fanfare. Just a whistle, a corral, and a test of pacing, patience, and pure grit.
We break down why the loop is exactly 4.167 miles, how the hourly restart changes everything, and what it takes to manage nutrition, sleep deprivation, and mindset when the clock rules your decisions. From flooded trails and road alternates to the chilling quiet between whistles, you’ll hear how the smallest choices—when to sit, what to eat, how to breathe—become the difference between another lap and a DNF. We revisit the jaw-dropping numbers from Big’s Backyard: 114 laps for the win, eight athletes over 100 yards, and the kind of sportsmanship that turns a race into a study of character.
Along the way, we talk benefits and risks. The 40% rule shows up when your brain says you’re done and your body proves otherwise, but there’s a cost if you ignore recovery and reality. We share practical ways to try the format safely: start with one yard, bring a simple kit, train your night legs, and consider rucking four miles in an hour if you’re building back from injury. The community matters as much as the mileage—first-timers chasing three laps get the same cheers as elites chasing records.
We’re also lacing up for the NorCal Backyard Ultra at Folsom, practicing night loops, and testing one-hour routines to stay sharp. If you need a clean slate or a challenge that fits any level, this format can be your reset button—one whistle, one lap, one decision at a time. If the episode moves you, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs a nudge, and leave a review with your guess: how many hours could you last?
Welcome to the peach podcast. Just a couple of dudes. I didn't change the justice. Welcome back to Feats Podcast with Doug and Daryl. Oh my gosh, it has been too long, Daryl. Way too long, man. We've had a few hiccups and life has just gotten in the way for the last couple of weeks. But we're back. We're back. You know, that's I want to make a point, Daryl, that, you know, sometimes people set goals or plans and they see a vision and they want to keep things and they want to build something. And along the way, man, there's these off-ramps, these detours, these setbacks, these hiccups, these speed bumps, whatever you want to call them, these distractions come up, they pull you away. And so many people say, ah, fuck it. You know, I maybe it wasn't meant to be. And man, that that's the worst thing you can do. The best thing you can do is don't give a shit about where you're at, how it's going to restart, but just start. I think I say that in the beginning of the show through the intro, the the pre-recorded intro that if you feel stuck, just start. And so I think Daryl and I, maybe we felt stuck in our personal lives here and there for whatever reasons. Uh, but here we are, and we are we're we're practicing what we preach in our podcast. Just start. So here we are. We're back again. We're gonna do this. We're gonna finish up, we're gonna do our best to finish up 2025 strong. And uh with that said, Daryl, I know one of the things I want to talk about today is congratulate you, man. I understand that you've been accepted to BYU, and that's that's a huge achievement. Now, I I just how are you gonna get to Utah every day? And like, what's that commute gonna be like? Tell me a little bit about BYU and and and what what what's that all about?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I've always thought about going back to school, uh, but instead of going to Utah, I'm going to what's called um Backyard Ultras. Um and uh it is a term, so if you see this BYU out there, it sounds for backyard ultras. Okay. Give you a little bit of background. It started out as an experiment um in 2011 by the race creator. His name is Gary, Gary Lazarus Lake Kentrell. And the reason that they nicknamed him that because he lives in Tennessee and in his backyard, he's got this lake, and it's called Lazarus Lake. A lot of people actually think the guy's name is Lazarus, it's really not uh his name is Gary, but people call him that.
SPEAKER_01:I thought it was Lazarus because he rose from the dead.
SPEAKER_00:He rose from the dead, and by the way, when you look at him, he does not look like a runner, right? Um, you know, uh, and he's an older guy with a big, huge long beard. We'll put the picture. A lot of people would probably see him out there. Okay. Um, and he he has this one, and it basically is an event that happens every two years. Um, and uh it was inspired by his dog. So officially what just happened was the world championships of backyard ultra running. We'll explain what that is, and it's called Big Backyard Ultra.
SPEAKER_01:So does he still have this in his backyard in Tennessee?
SPEAKER_00:His backyard. It's this, he has like an annual championship thing. Yeah, it's uh he has it every two years now. So it's it's it's like it's almost like the Olympics, and you have to qualify for it.
SPEAKER_01:And um but backyard ultras are because they're popping up everywhere now, like you can do them. I mean, you and E did one in uh Napa for uh JP or something like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01:That was a backyard ultra, right?
SPEAKER_00:It was, it was, and uh this format is just exploded over the years, and they had on Ultra Sign Up the little graph. There was over 500 of these now worldwide, right? Oh wow, and uh and uh it's probably gonna double, right? And um, it involves runners completing a 4.167 mile loop every hour on the hour.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so so tell me what why where where did the 4.167 mile loop come from?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think odd numbers. I didn't know either, but I I heard him explain it. So what they did is they took 100 miles, right, divided but by 24 hours, and that equals 4.167. So if you actually complete these 25 laps, or they call them yards in other, but but it's the same thing, okay. You basically run a hundred miles in 24 hours, and it actually is 4.1677, and and so that's kind of the concept you might have heard this other term last man standing. Yes, it's the the same concept as this. Basically, there's only one winner, and that's whoever doesn't quit.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And when you're the only one that doesn't quit and you complete one more loop than the other person, you win. Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:So in case we have I know I remember on our last podcast podcast, you explained like how you had you it everything's done with it within this hour time period, each lap. And so, but in case we have new lender listeners popping on, just break down the structure of how when you start and end a lap, how did that work? With the what's the time limit and how and when so the how do we get to the last man standing?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, and then we'll uh we'll jump in. So everybody starts at the corral, everybody's in the starting gate, like you do a normal running race, everybody's in the starting lineup. You take off and it starts at uh you know zero minutes and goes for an hour. Your average person, uh, the guy that won it, um, would come in anywhere between 42 to 48 minutes. He comes back at 42 minutes, he sit, he crosses over the line, he completed his yard, he can go to his little tent or his his place, he can sit down, he can do eat, do whatever he wants. The only requirement is he needs to be back in that corral to start at the next hour. So if I came in at 42 minutes, I've got 18 minutes to do whatever I want to go do and relax and everything else. So you can eat, you can stretch, you can get some water, whatever. If I come in at 59 minutes, oh shit, you're running straight in corral to turn around. Um and so um the end of the day, I'll give you a little bit of this. Uh, one, the reason we're bringing it up is Eric and I signed up for one of these. It's called the NorCal um Backyard Ultra. It's uh next, it's uh November 8th at Folsom Lake. It's a similar trail that um uh area that both Doug, Eric, and I have run uh before. It's at actually the starting is at Beals, uh, and you do this thing. This is actually uh not in a loop, it's an out and back. So we actually go out uh about two point something miles, and then you come back, and that is the 4.16. So Eric and I are going to try this out at seven o'clock uh in the morning on Saturday. Uh it's been going on for I think six years. Um, but um, I want to talk a little bit about this Ultra, and uh it was Big's backyard. By the way, it's simulcast and tracked on YouTube. It is the most organic thing you've ever seen in your life. It's just a handful of people intense. They got a couple little little videos here. Um I'm gonna kind of jump to the uh the end point here. Um, it's kind of nuts. The person that won it, which is Phil Gore, completed 114 laps. Holy Doug, I know you're sitting down because I can see you. That is 475 miles. You gotta be shitting me, Daryl. 475 miles. And four uh uh um uh 114 laps is 114 hours. That was four days, 18 hours. Holy crap. So when this thing started off, you know, we we had it on YouTube, we had a couple things, Eric and uh Josephine, even Ava got we'd have on YouTube every once in a while we check in once in a while to see where it was. There were 75 runners from around the world. Um, there was over 40 different countries, so you would see the tents and flags everywhere and everything else. It was really cool. The average Doug, the average runner, so they took all the people, completed 75 yards, which is 75 hours, which is almost three days, which was over 260 miles. Wow. Um, it's hard to believe. Yeah, and you watch it and they go out, and uh the only thing is when they come back in and they cross over the finish line, uh, they have whatever three minutes before this Lazarus blows a whistle, three whistles, tells them three minutes, right? Two whistles, and then one whistle, and then he rings a bell and then they get to go take off. You can imagine what four days, 18 hours is like the stories, the drama, yeah, uh, the amazing things. It was uh just absolutely um amazing. So it was really, really good.
SPEAKER_01:That's really interesting. I I like that. I I'm gonna have to I haven't done it, you know. I'm I'm my foot issues getting better somehow, someway. I don't know how, but it's it's it is, and I'm doing a little running now. And I was talking to to Dave from Team Peach, um, DV, the fixer, and I was we were talking about these backyard ultrasound going, we we gotta go out there and try this. And so I think we're gonna coming up soon, we're gonna join you guys.
SPEAKER_00:Not this one, but uh no, but it's uh it's a it's a pretty cool format. But let me uh let me give you a little little uh taste of a few amazing different things there, right?
SPEAKER_01:And so, Daryl, you know, one of the things I just want to point out in our last podcast, I believe I I just recalled, I think you mentioned some BYUs have uh time limits, like it may be only a 10-hour or a 12-hour backyard ultra. And so this one where it's called the last man standing, it goes indefinitely until there's a last man standing.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And uh that's crazy. And it's pretty amazing. I'll go back to 2018, right? 2018, the person that won it, um Jonah Steen did 68 laps. Um, there was some 60s, 68, 65, 85. This year they went from 60 ish to 114. The amount of explosion, so people before were doing 250 miles, now they're approaching 500 miles.
SPEAKER_01:That's insane, Daryl. What about that? 2018 is when the stats started, so over the last seven years, and after the last seven years, doubled yeah, the uh amount of mileage that a human being is putting on their body in that time. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And let me give you a couple of the cool stats. The guy that won his name Phil Gore. Right. Um, he's from Australia, he's a firefighter. Um, he it's a little scary because if anybody else was because like let's say the second place guy stops or gal, you can't run anymore. I think this guy could run forever. I mean, he looks like it, he's just amazing.
SPEAKER_01:Who Phil Gore?
SPEAKER_00:Phil Gore. He's one, uh he actually holds a world record of 119. Uh, so he did uh 114 on this. The first night it poured, it rained like thunderstorms and everything else. And so they were they're running through like the the the absolute worst um storms. The the track got flooded, so they had him run for about half a day on the road. They have another road trail um there until it dried out, right? And they just they don't they don't break a beat. He's there. Wow. Uh there's two women, uh Sarah Perry uh from Britain. Uh she uh did 95 laps, so she did uh over uh right under 400 miles. Uh the woman from there. Uh she came in like seventh place. There's a guy named Harvey Lewis, he's a teacher from the US. Um he's uh uh a school teacher uh from Ohio. He came in uh he came in third there and uh he did uh 111. So it was amazing. It was just amazing to watch it, and it they would go from 75 to 70 into there. And on the last day, there was eight people, eight runners that had over a hundred laps, a hundred yards. So that's over 416. Wow. So you see these eight people and they line up every time, Doug. And when you see them, a couple of them, dude, they are hanging on, and you think every lap, they're not gonna make it, and they keep going and going and going. It is absolutely crazy.
SPEAKER_01:That is nuts, Daryl. Yeah, that you know, that the way you describe that, you just remind me of the the you shared with me earlier the the 40% rule from David Goggins. Why don't you tell everyone what the 40% rule, because this is what these people must have been feeling, you know, after crossing that hundred-mile mark and they're still going to keep going, you know. What's the 40, what's the David Goggins 40% rule, Daryl?
SPEAKER_00:David Goggins 40% rule says that when you're just about when your brain says, I can't do this anymore, I mean like really you can't do this anymore at all, right? Right, that means you're about 40% done and your body can go the other 60%. And that's what he he calls it his 40% rule. Now that's kind of scary, right? But he believes just about when you're about ready to give up. And the thing that really surprised me, because I've seen a couple of these, is the concept of no sleep, Doug. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That is the part that's because you can't sleep on these things, dude, because if you're not at this the Corral at the top of the hour, you're out, right?
SPEAKER_00:Some of the people will run faster laps so they can come in and like like turn over and sleep for like five minutes and then they wank them up. So every once in a while you'll have somebody like really jam and get a lap in like 40 minutes. Yeah, you're like, why where did they come from? And then they go and they lay on their chair for like five minutes and then somebody shakes them to wank them up. I mean, it's absolutely brutal, it's absolutely amazing.
SPEAKER_01:That is nuts, man.
SPEAKER_00:That's so I'll put I'll I I'll put the YouTube video, there's a lot of them, but you'll see these. Um, they're called BYU or Last Man Standing. Um, it is, but um, I want to share the story about the very end. Okay. And um there were three runners. There was Phil Gore, who's considered to be the the best right there. There's um Harvey Lewis, which is the American champion, right? Um, and there's this guy named Evo, and he's got a really difficult Belgian name, so I'm not gonna even try, right? Where's he from? He's uh Ukrainian, but he actually was on the Belgian team because they do when you represent this, you do represent your country. So, like, you know, overall, so so Phil was uh representing Australia in this. So everybody thought that it was gonna be Phil and Harvey battling it out. So the three of them take off. This Evo guy, he's 55 years old, 55, he's my age, yeah, right? He's 440 miles into this, and every time he is barely making it back. And if you see the pictures, we'll put his name in the chat. Uh he is like leaned over, so he's like running with a lean because he can't straighten himself, right? Oh shit, and so he's barely making it in. So one of the laps that comes out almost the end, Phil comes in about 50 minutes, goes there because everybody's now everybody's online watching the last three. Who's gonna make it? Who's gonna make it? Right, right. And then all of a sudden you see come around who's in the middle of the night, a light, and you think, of course, it's Harvey. Harvey looks like he's doing good. It was Evo, the guy leaned over, barely making it in. Wow, and then where's Harvey? Nobody saw Harvey, so he didn't make the time. So then the other two take off. So Phil and the guy, Evo, who's leaning, and you know, so then they wait to see if hey, Harvey's coming in, he's gonna, you know, there. Harvey didn't come in, so they sent a car. They found Harvey, he was just sitting on the site, he's like, screw this, I am not gonna make it. So they had to bring him back in a in a car. Uh, and they they talked to him, they sit him down, they talk to him, and he just his body just completely gave out. And he really said that his mind gave out. He just he got he's disoriented, he didn't know what he was doing. Yeah, so everybody basically said it's over. That Evo's never gonna make it around. I mean, he was this guy is on like fumes, and by the way, there's no reason for him to. Phil's gonna win. There's there's no reason. And they took off, and people in the chat were like, I bet Phil's gonna run with this guy. So the guy that Phil would come in at 45 to 50, and Evo that's barely making it, they ran together. You can't tell, but they came in together, arm in arm for that last lap, right? And they brought a chair right over the finish line. Evo sat down, and Evo's, it was his fastest uh lap in like like like almost a hundred miles. And he sat down and he said, he goes, he he shook his hand, and for 10 minutes they were talking back and forth. And he he says, and Evo said, Can you can you guys help get me out of my chair? He gave him out of his chair, he hugged him and says, I love you, Phil. Go go win it. Wow. And I mean, like literally, this is four days and something. They both had their um, they both had their uh flags around them, and Evo says, I want to start it. So he took two steps and then he shook his hand and then Phil took off. And Phil needed to complete his last lap. And Eric said to me, it was like the biggest humanity thing. I mean, like these guys are killing themselves, right? And at the end, um Phil Gore basically helped him get around that last lap so he would come in second officially. There's no real second place, and then he did. It was super cool.
SPEAKER_01:That's awesome. Wow, that's awesome, but it's also scary. Like you mentioned before, and I want to kind of transition into, you know, Daryl, what do what do you think some of the um the benefits mentally and physically of doing these things are? I'm sure there's a ton of them, but also what are some of the dangers, right? I'm sure people are talking about, like, you know, you get some young people out there who feel invincible, like, I'm gonna go do this, and and you know, man, you need to know what you're getting involved with because the body breaks down. And I know I'm sure Phil Gore and Evo and and Harvey are, you know, they're not weekend warriors. They've probably been doing this for years, and you learn a lot of shit about your body over the years. It takes a lot, a lot of experience and time to really adapt and learn how your body operates to do something this extreme. So, what what what are your thoughts on some of this? And do they talk about this uh in the circuit life uh of the BY?
SPEAKER_00:Uh they they they do a little bit. I watch I've watched a lot of videos on this, and it's amazing. Your everyday one, you're just going out too. They have one in fulsome into this. You have some people, Doug, that go out and they're they're trying to do like three three laps. So three laps is 12 miles, and that's amazing. They're they're trying to go do that. It's amazing that some of these people that are trying to do three laps are there and they they'll do like eight or nine. So they exceed their goals, and it's so amazing that environment and that community, and just people doing more than they ever thought, and they cheer as hard for the people that are doing three laps as it is for the winner doing 60. It's like everybody, it's like this community. So I think that's the amazing part. The scary part of what some of these people are doing here is you look at them and they they look literally like the walking wounded. Um, some of the people really at the end, more than anything, they didn't know what they were doing anymore, Doug. Yeah. This one person, they had to kind of like, you know, they had to continue to remind themselves this lady uh Sarah was out running, and she was like, I I was running, and they don't they don't even know where they're at. Right. You know, they get so confused and everything. Take out your body and the the the toll and the mental things. And then I'll take Harvey as an example. Harvey, he's a school teacher uh uh there. He uh was really just out of it. Uh he actually went to the hospital, he found out he had three cracked ribs, and he actually spent a couple days in the hospital. Wow, and he's two he's two weeks, and he just posted something that he went out on his first run, and it was a joke because he was still on crutches and he went for a quarter mile thing with crutches. So um I think it's a little bit, you know, what I saw when I watched this is I think it's the opposite. I think um people's bodies were breaking down. I don't know how people are able to push themselves to the limit where their body actually is like physically breaking down.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, you know, so I think there's a little concern as these things get more popular. There's a difference between a Phil Gore, right? These guys that they're professional, right? But your average person going out and trying to push their limits. Um uh there's I think there's definitely some concerns over this.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, big time. I I remember uh following uh what was his name? Iron Cowboy, who did uh a hundred a hundred triathlons, full triathlons in 100 consecutive days. And I actually ended up doing a hundred and one, just uh one, just one more in 101 days. But I remember following him after his the physical part of it all, I mean during the uh the event towards the end. I mean, you could tell he there was a lot of uh mental and emotional stuff going on, and the physical stuff was clearly apparent, but you know, he got through it all. But at the end, man, he went through several months, if not a couple years, of really traumatic like brain shit that he had to really work through. Yes. Woke up crying every day and like he didn't know what the hell his body was doing, like he didn't know why. And it so it could be really um you know traumatizing to the body, not just to the physical body, but to the to the emotional soul, to the mental, to the brain, all that shit. So yeah, and I just it's just curious that if you're gonna get in because I'd love to try this, and you know what I love about this particular thing is you know, maybe you you don't go, you don't have to go out to this kind of an event and say, I'm gonna run 10 laps or I'm gonna run three laps. You can just go out and say, I'm gonna run a lap. And then if I'm back in the corral on the top of the hour, I'll run the second lap. And so you can literally do one lap at a time until you don't want to do it anymore, or until you can't do it anymore, and just see, you know, just for shits and giggles to see where you're at. Some people may be done after two laps, others may be done after 12 laps, and others 20, and and then you got the 114 lappers. But uh what a great uh tool. Uh if you're someone who wants to test your boundaries, if you're struggling in uh in your mental mind, if you're struggling with discipline, if you're struggling with uh your emotions, uh this is a great physical tool to go out and use and really check yourself and and awaken some shit inside of you to realize that you're much stronger, much stronger than you might believe. And so, man, I encourage this kind of uh this kind of entertainment or work or whatever you want to call it to or exercise to to really just challenge yourself. It's it's great to challenge yourself to see where you're at.
SPEAKER_00:It it it it's it's kind of like a runner's picnic because everybody's got a pop-up, right? Yeah, everybody's got a chair, everybody's got a table with some food and some tape for your feet and everything else. It's kind of like an outdoor kind of like thing. You have a couple people there, um, these events. So I'm excited. It'll be uh it's an Oracala's next Saturday, so we're gonna give it a try. It starts at seven in the morning. Um, Eric and I did go out and did a practice run last Friday night. We we worked on running at night. I've told you that's kind of uh not so easy, right? Right. So um, so um I did uh I did four laps, Eric did eight. Eric did almost 25 miles running at night with our lamps. Wow. Um, so we did the same format. We did the hour, we checked ourselves, we sat, we did those things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but you guys got a good feel for the for for the uh when is it?
SPEAKER_00:You said the eighth? Eighth. It's uh and uh all I could think of the whole time as I'm running this is they did this for four days, and I did this for three hours or four hours.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we'll see what you end up doing uh again, one lap at a time, Daryl. One lap at right, one day at a time, one lap at a time.
SPEAKER_00:One day at a time, one lap at a time. But just uh big, big shout out to these people. And I was in the you know, like the the they have the the live stream in the chats, and people are like, why don't they give them prizes? By the way, everybody gets the same thing except the winner. You get a silver coin right uh from Lars after you're done and you get to relax. He comes over and presents it to you, Shake Tran talks you for a minute, gives him your silver coin and says, you know what? Um basically it says you participated. That's it, a silver coin. That's it. You participated, yeah. And he and he says, you know, he says the same thing. I'd suggest you go get some sleep, come back here, and you can wait uh finish watching the carnage, right? That's he kind of gives a whole speech, right? Yeah, and then the only person that gets that same coin, the only difference, it's gold. Ah, okay is uh is is is the winner. No prize money, no anything else. And these are the best runners in the world. And it's just and they literally are thanking him for opening his backyard, right? It's this it's just like religious personal experience. It has nothing to do with fame, fortune, money. These people don't make any money.
SPEAKER_01:I think Daryl, we need to buy a piece of property that that can that can host this kind of man. What if that's all we did, right? Like two times, two or two to three times a year in the good season, spring, summer, and fall. Yeah, that would be uh that would be fun, dude. It will be. Yeah, let's uh let's think about that. Because that you know what? You don't need a lot of land, just enough. Yep, just enough. Very cool. Well, great stuff. Thanks for sharing that, Daryl. I'm I'm excited, and again, I'm excited to uh be I'm gonna try to sneak out there and hang out with you and Eric for a few hours and and watch you guys do a few laps, give you some cheering on and while I eat your snacks. But it'll be cool to see, man. It'll be cool to see. But I'm all good for now. Um, you know, I think the one thing you have inspired in me after listening to you is I want to see if I could ruck four miles with in an in an hour, and maybe I can go out there and do a couple laps with my my my 42-pound ruck and see what I'm gonna do.
SPEAKER_00:I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can.
SPEAKER_01:So um, but yeah, that that'll that'll be fun to kind of just go out and and do. So yeah, I can't wait till I'm fully capable to go out and and just try it. And I'm excited about getting out of here.
SPEAKER_00:You seem like you're close. You're you've been dabbling, you've been dabbling, you've been crushing at rucking, but you've been running too. I think you're close.
SPEAKER_01:I started running and uh it's it's it's holding up okay. It's holding up okay. So we'll see. Well, I just don't want to have any setbacks, I want to keep moving forward. It is what it is, but that's it for me, brother. You got anything else to add?
SPEAKER_00:Nope. Uh BYU, baby.
SPEAKER_01:Uh BYU, Backyard University or Backyard Ultra, Backyard Ultra. All right, man. Hey, let's give a shout out to uh D V, Dave the Fixer from Peach Podcast, to Three Spoke, that's JR, and to Ultra E, who's uh what was he before Ultra E? Easy E and E-Train.
SPEAKER_00:Easy E, E-Train. Yeah, he's he's got all sorts of names.
SPEAKER_01:So and then uh we've got Dave over under Dave DC. Uh so big, big shout out to the Peach team out there. We love you guys. Can't wait till we can get all together and do an event together. Maybe we can all do one of these things together. That would be fun. That'd be fun. That'd be fun. All right, so I'm gonna just close out like we always do and say God blessed and peach out. Peach out. We're out of the way.